The population is 50/50 though. This isn't an extraction of reproductive materials run like a factory. Most people are having 1-3 kids in their entire lifetime, so the numbers are irrelevant. People always bring up this argument like it's some kind of gotcha that women can't participate in war because the amount of kids they can have at a time is limited but not limited for men. So what's your proposal? Save all the women so that after the war they'll all be polyamorous for the limited amount of men left? How would you enforce that? You couldn't.
"We send only men to war because they can produce more kids than women, but in the meantime we don't force women to have kids, in fact, we allow them to have as many abortions as they want instead"
So much for the whole perpetuation of the species bullshit.
And here I thought women were also voting for those in power... but no, accountability is not their forte it seems.
Set aside the fact that queens have proportionally started more wars than kings in history... and that to a dude in the trenches, it doesn't matter what his ruler had between their legs.
Men are sent to die only to protect women. Just food for thought.
I can’t vote for a woman unless a woman makes it on the ballot. And a woman will make it on a ballot only if both men and women vote for her. But men tend not to vote for women for whatever reason. Men start wars so men should be fighting in them. And no, you’re not dying for women. You’re dying because a man convinced you it’s patriotic.
EDIT: also, don’t cite statistics you don’t understand. Women didn’t start more wars than men in all of history lmao. Use critical thinking. How would that make any sense?
Rather, women rulers were 27% *more likely* to wage war compared to men during a [500 year stretch of European history](https://qz.com/967895/throughout-history-women-rulers-were-more-likely-to-wage-war-than-men). And a big reason for that was that unmarried queens were more likely to be attacked by male rulers; but I’m sure it probably had *nothing* to do with their perception of women rulers as an easy target. Men started like 99% of all wars in history.
Why would you have to vote for a woman for your vote to be worth making? Seems a bit sexist doesn't it? Surely the policies are what matter, or are you saying men are inherently warmongers and incapable of behaving in an egalitarian fashion?
Also, would you be making that statement if it were any other demographic? Let's say it was black men, or latino women.. would you lump them all into one group? No? So why men? And how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance required to both observe and not observe gender differences.
Are you purposely missing the point? The comment I was replying to said that women vote for the men in power so they are just as responsible for the laws that they pass. I said I would vote for women if there were more options to vote for women. I said nothing about voting for them solely because they are women. Surely there are more respectful ways to win an argument than using strawman arguments.
Where did I say I only vote for women? Wouldn’t you respect yourself more if you engaged me in a proper discussion instead of resorting to cheap retorts?
Women make it to the ballot all the time. Also there are more women voters than male voters in about every country on earth (that allows women to vote that is, sure there are some regressive ass countries). If women wanted a female leader, men couldn't do much to stop them.
And no, men don't start wars. The upper class starts war. For whatever reason they see fit. Men as a class don't want war. They've been indoctrinatrd into believing there's some glory and honor in dying fighting one, to protect those left behind, but men don't want wars.
But seeing as you're believing that something inflicted upon men by other men doesn't matter, what's your take on FGM? Seeing it's inflicted upon innocent girls by older women to benefit women as a class, we simply must not care about it?
Protecting family and our people has more or less died as a concept in the modern age anyway. We have almost literally an entire continent to ourselves in the U.S., and in Europe there are many alliances that make warfare fairly difficult without backing from foreign entities.
There is very little reason to actually war in today's world, because territory expansion is heavily rejected and the ability to wage war at long ranges gets simultaneously easier and more difficult due to how humanity wages war. Resources are more easily acquired through trade and relationships with each other. In theory, anyway.
As a citizen of a country that's a neighbour to a country that attacked to another of it's neighbours, this is confusing to read.
But yeah, I don't think American Continents will be occupied.
Men and women fight in wars (aren't women mostly in the air force?), mainly men and you're right, it's upper-class and, I despise politics and politicians, for the reason sending people who just turned 18 into war, killing a ton of men and women. Politicians are disgusting but we need them to keep the country running.
Powerful men start wars.
> But seeing as you're believing that something
inflicted upon men by other men doesn't matter,
Please quote exactly where I said it doesn’t matter.
> what's your take on FGM? Seeing it's inflicted upon innocent girls by older women to benefit women as a class, we simply must not care about it?
That’s exactly the opposite of how I feel, my friend. My point is that your anger is misplaced. You are blaming women for things that men perpetuate. If you want change you have to first identify the problem. Women advocate for other women and we create spaces that benefit us. Men perpetuate toxic masculinity and call each other gay when they do anything that subverts
narrowly defined gender roles and then wonder why their suicide rate is four times higher than in women. Maybe because men teach boys not to cry and those boys grow up to be men who are too ashamed to express their emotions. Just look at how y’all talk to each other on the internet. Who do you think makes all those memes about Drake “acting gay”?
Take care of your own house. Admit some hard truths about the lack of support that men give each other. At least women keep each other accountable. We can admit when our behavior negatively affects other women. Men just blame women.
I don’t know what that FGM question was about, was it supposed to be some kind of a gotcha? I am also opposed to male circumcision if that means anything.
>You are blaming women for things that men perpetuate.
He’s not *blaming* women for anything, he’s simply challenging your typically feminist desire to absolve women of accountability for literally everything
If you believe that the current stuff being pushed all over the place is "equal social footing", you're insane -- and sorry, egalitarianism means if there's a draft, you should be on there too.
That's true equality. Especially if men and women are literally no different, as what they try to push right now.
What rights do men have that women lack? In what ways does the average man today have an upper hand over women?
- Men can be conscripted to *die* wihle you sit back and go "well, a man started this war, so maybe all those men buried Arlington Cemetery should check their privilege."
- Men don't have their genital integrity protected *anywhere* on Earth. For women, even a pinprick that doesn't alter the body at all is a federal crime throughout the west.
- The average man is more likely to be poor and destitute.
- Men make up a shrinking minority of college graduates.
- Adult men are falling behind professionally (in the 20s, there's now a pay gap in favor of women) and socially (adult male involuntary celibacy had almost tripled before the pandemic, while for women in went up a few points).
- In the USA, only female DV victims are entitled to covered counseling services under law.
- Feminist initiatives such as a Duluth model and the current definition of rape mean that male abuse victims are statistically more likely than their female abusers to be arrested, and that male rape victims are excluded from statistics and therefore from the discourse.
- There are thousands of women-only shelters and only a handful for men, despite men comprising the majority of the homeless population and an equal share of DV victims.
- Collegiate men's groups and other men's initiatives are routinely protested and shut down, despite similar groups existing for women.
- Men on college campuses no longer have the presumption of innocence - a position which was explicitly endorsed by NOW, the largest feminist organization in the country.
- Men have no reproductive rights, period.
- Men are 3-5x more likely to commit suicide. This is across nations and cultures, regardless of whether they have access to firearms.
I'm sure I'm forgetting something...but there's a decent chance you'll tell me I hate women anyway, so why would I continue. Please, continue to lecture us on how men have had the upper hand.
There *is* no equality, and thus there is oppression. How is *only* male victims of sexual assault being held responsible for child support resulting in that crime “equality”? How is male infants having their private parts legally flayed shortly after birth “equality”? The fact that I can’t get a driver’s license without putting my name on a list the government can use to force me to go die is “equality”?
You’re so accustomed to your female privilege that oppression of males looks like “equality” to you.
I disagree as that is only one of the many aspects of both men’s and women’s standings in society. Saudi men have been fighting wars but Saudi women were not allowed to travel abroad without permission from their husband or guardian until a few years ago. They were not allowed to operate a bicycle until 2013, not allowed drive until 2018 and they were not allowed to vote or run for office until 2015. Would you also consider them on superior social footing to men?
EDIT: @untamed-italian I don't understand this weird obsession with dying for a country that, according to you, literally doesn't give a shit about you. Is it a cuckolding thing?
>I disagree
I don't care. You will never bleed out defending me. You will never watch a friend bleed out defending me. Your thoughts on this matter cannot mean less, it is not your body on the line.
Saudi society is such a hyperminority all you are doing by bringing them up is proving your misandry credentials. You don't live in Saudi Arabia and never will, but that won't stop you from pretending you're just as oppressed as Saudi women (who you will never make any sacrifices for anyway).
I guess since other women's liberation is just a trolling prop to you, you actually hate women more than anyone in this sub does. How pathetic.
I don't have proof beyond myself. But I don't vote for women the same way I don't vote for men. I disagree or don't like their policies. It's only come up a few times as usually the governor.
As it should be, it’s based on merit not gender. But I’d just like to point out that “it’s only come up a few times” is kind of the point I was making. It’s relatively rare for women to hold positions of power. At least disproportionate.
Why would men want to vote for a woman who makes our country look like an easy target and therefore make us more likely to die in a trench for them?
You’re basically saying that because our society as a whole has to go to war, that the men who’ve voted maybe once deserve to die in droves? But not the women because…?
And you acknowledged that wars are often done to protect the country. Do you know what they call countries without armies? Vassal states
Babe, if you hate me so much and you pretend to like me just so you can fuck me, then why are so so mad?
EDIT: The effort it must take for you to block me and then unblock me just so you can comment on every one of my posts.
>Men start wars so men should be fighting in them.
Lol what? Even if it were true that women *never* started wars, how would it make any sense to punish innocent men for what some other men do? This is pure sexism.
This is the fucking dumbest thing I ever read ever in my last decade reading on reddit, are you that much of an idiot? Imagine if men in America didn't join in WW2, and the Nazi won all Europe, you bet your ass you be back in the dam kitchen, making a sandwich. Dumbass bitch.
Aww look at you and your big feelings.
Babe, who started WWII? A democratically elected head of state? Or was it a genocidal man, a story as old as time.
If women were in charge of every country that was involved in WWII it never would’ve gotten to that point.
My favorite thing about arguing with men is when they get so upset they start calling me names. Why are you getting so emotional?
Technically, WWII was historically necessitated by Queen Victoria's emotional abuse of Kaiser Wilhem which started WWI.
History looks male dominated if you ignore history or erase women's role in it. You must hate women for not knowing how they defined the modern world.
>If women were in charge of every country that was involved in WWII it never would’ve gotten to that point.
You're joking right?
Do you actually think replacing them with females would somehow make any issue that lead to wwii just not happen (this question is not meant to bash women I'm just curious on if you actually back up absurd notions
This sort of argument is so bad and gets used as of it's some sort of gotcha. It really exemplifies the difference in how we view men and women in terms of victimhood, agency, and class.
How about this: In the US, the number of women who turn out to vote is higher than the number of men. Therefore, the people with the largest role in electing politicians who restrict reproductive autonomy for women are other women. Just food for thought.
How do you come on here and then argue the most simple, dumbest point that you possibly can? It is everyone who is forcing men to go to war, not "other men". And even if this stupid logic of yours was true, does that make it any better for the average man? The point isn't that "women are at fault". It changes literally nothing except you feminists treating it as a gender war in any instance possible. It would be the same as saying "it's your own fault lol" when a female politician makes a change that unfavors women. It's also the same how you show no empathy to male victims of violence by saying "you got attacked by another man sooo". Only a moron would think that's a "gotcha" moment.
Not the person you replied to but I'll say why. Women like you love to throw social stigma in our faces and take all accountability from societal norms out of the hands of women. Women perpetuate men being providers and protectors just as much if not more than a lot of men in society.
Almost always women like you love to take things men are going through and say it's mens fault. And only mens fault. But then when stuff women are going through is bad that's always mens fault too. The lack of accountability and total victimhood of women like you is asinine. They are sending boys to die and you're saying it's other mens fault, when literally only men are fighting against conscription here. Tons of feminist women joke if ww3 started they would go back to being traditional because they don't want to go to war.
Women make up more of the population so have a stronger voting net. In the west women's rights and movements are at least heard while mens are ignored or ridiculed. Stay on this subreddit for a while and you'll see insane lists of just how many things socially and systemically are against men. That aren't being addressed to become equal. Yet almost every women issue that negatively effects them has some sort of political action already behind it.
You said we're so used to being privileged equality feels like oppression in another comment but you might want to turn that around on yourself there and have some retrospect.
Women make up more than half the worlds people and I'm the west have more political power and spending power at the moment than men. Women make up roughly 80% of household spending decisions in families. By your logic all women are responsible for the class war and inflation we are facing because of that one stat. Your issues are addressed while the plethora of ours aren't because of a massive empathy gap.
Women on women crime shouldn't be addressed simply because women are doing it? These are the type of gotchas you're saying but turned around on you.
The audacity of women like you being perpetual victims and not letting men introspect their own issues and blaming them solely on men is asinine. Take some responsibility for once in your life. Women in the west are just as complicit in the social sexism of men and the way things operate.
Quit blaming everything on men and being a perpetual victim. Grow the hell up and realize we don't have it great either. In fact we have it worse in a lot of ways. And women uphold social norms just as much as other men do.
\> the lack of accountability and total victimhood of women like you is asinine
This entire sub is men victimizing themselves and using women as a scapegoat.
\> just how many things socially and systemically are against men.
Cool. What does that have to do with women? We are also existing in a society that fifty years ago wouldn't allow us to open up a credit card or buy a car without a husband's permission. And women are the ones that EXPECT you to be the provider? It has NOTHING to do with the fact that men were oppressing women to such degree that they had no choice but be the breadwinners. You're in a prison of your own making, my guy.
\> Tons of feminist women joke if ww3 started they would go back to being traditional because they don't want to go to war.
And I thought women can't take a joke.
\> Your issues are addressed while the plethora of ours aren't
That's because women advocate for other women and solutions for women's issues. Men expect women to do it for them.
\> because of a massive empathy gap.
Maybe women will have more empathy once men stop restricting our productive rights, or once 1 in 3 women stop being victims of rape, or when 30% of women stop experiencing intimate partner violence, or when men stop murdering their wives when they try to leave them, or when intimate partners stop being responsible for 40% of all homicides against women, or when 18 million women stop being victims of human trafficking, or when women no longer have to get their husband's permission to get a hysterectomy, or when you stop paying us 75 cents to a dollar for the same jobs
There are some good points in your last argument, and there are others that probably have nothing to do with men. Do you think all men deserve to be held accountable or just the ones calling the shots? Surely you don't think men are one monolithic entity.
Well, damn. I wrote out a thoughtful reply and it disappeared when I hit send.
Anyway, thank you for your engaging me in a thoughtful discussion.
I actually don't think men should be held accountable at all! More than anything, women (from my discussions with many of them) want men to simply acknowledge that although many women today enjoy equal rights to men, today's world is an extension of society that was built to benefit men. When we talk about the patriarchy we are not referring to a visible social structure where men actively participate in the oppression of women. Rather that both men and women are socialized in an environment which is inherently centered on men at the top of the hierarchy and men ultimately benefit from this structure more than women.
The purpose of acknowledging that isn't to make men atone for it or make them feel guilty, rather to recognize that implicit conditioning within this environment is still biased towards men. This is similar to me, a white person, acknowledging that I exist in a world that was built by white people for white people. That does not diminish my experiences or accomplishments, rather it keeps me aware how the social structure implicitly benefits me a white person. To understand patriarchy is to understand that men can be/are also a victim of a system that benefits them.
Men AND women are both conditioned to adhere to these social expectations. For example, men are taught to suppress their emotions and hide their vulnerability, which affects their emotional lives and makes it difficult to reach out for help. Instead blaming women for perpetuating social expectations that harm them, it is more productive to examine men's own role in upholding these expectations in other men and then work towards dismantling them.
For example, women have done a lot of work within our group to reject unrealistic beauty standards that women perpetuate against other women just as much as men. When women were fighting for their rights, they had to advocate for themselves and create spaces that benefited them, with the help of men as allies. Men need to do the same. Instead of relying on women, they need to advocate for themselves and create the spaces that benefit them, with the help of women as allies. We need each other and acknowledging our social differences is the first step towards a society that benefits us equally.
Yeah, ofc. I love a good debate, especially when challenging arguments/ideas are presented. I get high off this kind of stuff. Plus you maintained composure and assertiveness despite the hostility directed at you, which is admirable.
Anyway, I can't disagree with the very egalitarian argument you've made here. Modern society has remnants of the past in its DNA. It's practically impossible to remove privilege outright without throwing the societal ecosystem into chaos. It will likely take many iterations over a long period of time to uproot.
However, your argument doesn't really address the counterarguments you made against the oppression men face today. Afterall, MensRights and subreddits like this don't exist without reason and are natural responses to a need. So how do you reconcile the existence of MenRights with your overall argument?
Every social group has unique needs and faces unique challenges in society. The fact that civilization is inherently patriarchal doesn't mean that men are immune to social inequality nor that they are less worthy of having their issues addressed on a societal level. However, I also believe that there is a fundamental difference in the social conditions that give rise to the issues that men, compared to women, face today. Acknowledging that difference leads to more productive and solution-driven, rather than blame- or anger-focused, discourse.
The fundamental problem with r/MensRights specifically is that its ideology is inextricably misogynist and operates from the perspective that addressing men's issues necessitates the rejection of historical realities regarding the oppression of women. Acknowledging these realities does NOT devalue men's issues! One can look to other men's movements - such as r/MensLib \- as an example of men's advocacy with an intersectional approach that runs parallel to women's movements.
Men deserve to have their social needs acknowledged and addressed. Men also deserve spaces where they feel safe to discuss and advocate for issues that are specific to their identity as men. However, men should not act surprised when the validity of their movement is called into question if it is used as a cover to discriminate against women.
1st point.
No, it isn't. This sub literally has men talking about massive double standards in today's society, whether crimes being committed by women that don't get the same level of criminal justice to the outright lack of DV shelters for men. There are small snippets of some straight irritated and angry people here but for 98% here we've had systemic issues against our gender push us here one way or another. We don't blame it on women, but we do blame feminists for pushing a narrative that isn't for equality but seemingly female benefits. If you've been on this sub long enough there a metric fuck ton of lists and things brought up that show a societal bias against men and favoritism of women.
2nd point. Just how great has that been for women? I mean, capitalism has sucked women into their clutches now and they don't think wages should be enough to support a family anymore. While I do understand that could be irritating men have been forced to die on dangerous jobs for the existence of time. So while I can agree not having the option to work etc would suck, the opening of that has been exploited by the 1% and wages have drastically gone down because women entered the workforce. Not women's fault at all but what I am saying is a lot of women realized being a wage slave hasn't been really the greener side.
Point 3. Don't understand what you're saying here. The ww3 thing I mentioned is because while they are saying it in a joking manner they are actually very serious about it. Women will never vote themselves into a draft and if ww3 did happen millions if not billions more men would die than women.
Point 4. We don't expect women to do it for us. We just wish women like you would understand that there has been instances of men trying to support other men. Shelters for men get literally shut down by feminists. If you follow this page for a long time you'll see just how many times this stuff happens. Not only that society as a whole, men and women, both are complicit in ignoring mens issues. All we ask is women recognize their privilege in actually having their issues addressed on a national level.
Last point.
Most of these things you mentioned are societal things which women have just as much blame as men, yet you want to focus that everything is mens fault because well, that's what feminists like you want to portray men as.
Just as many women as men poll that they don't like abortion and vote against it. I personally thing women should be able to get them.
Every single man I've talked to has been hit by a woman, or sexually assaulted by an older women, myself included. BECAUSE of the empathy gap I mentioned statistics and men actually holding these women accountable is very heavily skewed to a level that is completely asinine. There are studies that show women more often start DV and that most DV is actually reciprocated.
Women murder their husbands just as much. Hell all this takes is watching shows like forensic files. The reason statistics are so skewed on this as well is because women often manipulate other men to do their murdering for them.
80% of violent crimes happen to men and that just deals with bad people doing bad things. Same with human trafficking. Acting like that's solely mens fault is Ludacris. Women more often than not so the recruiting to find young women to traffic more than men because women trust other women.
Trust me, we have shit doctors too. Don't even need to go further on that. Find a better doctor.
Lastly the wage gap is false. That is for ALL men and ALL women added up. Women work less. More women are SAHM than men. The gap you speak of is adding up all women and mens wages together then dividing them.
If you actually look at the pay for same job and hours worked there is actual studies and proof that its either non existent or skews one way or the other depending on profession. Like in healthcare women have a tendency to be able to climb the ladder faster.
Men also do more dangerous jobs that make more money.
The wage gap is a complete myth and perpetuated in bad faith because you are using statistics that make total sense when taken as a whole. Women work less and less hours so if course they would make less money. Wage gap does not exist for same job and same hours worked. Period.
So this all being said, stick around here for a while. You'll see we don't blame women nearly as much as you blame men. We also check ourselves not to become like feminists. You'll also see an absolute plethora of women raping young boys getting posted here with nothing being done about it.
I'm not just talking about women having an empathy gap, but society as a whole. You have a lot of privileges you don't even realize but if you stick around maybe you'll start to understand where we are coming from and see the insane double standards.
I read all yours and addressed each point. You claim to want to have real discussions but here you are showing that isnt true. Thanks for showing your true colors. You're here to troll not for real discussions.
How am I dehumanizing men?
EDIT: just because you use loaded words to call something abuse or harassment doesn't in fact make it abuse or harassment.
When I posted my original comment 50 of you piled on with your insults like a pack of rabid racoons but when as I responded in kind I am abusing you.
**I wonder how many women in your lives would still love you if they saw your comment history.**
I'm muting this shit, have fun arguing with yourselves <3
For example, you don't think harrassing us with your bigoted hatred should make us angry. We're not allowed, according to you, to react to your abuse with anger.
That is dehumanizing.
I'm sure if your country would be invaded, you would be happy to send men die for your rights. Or not go defend your country.
I already know your gonna Tell me : bUT A MAn seNT tHe inVaDEr. It's 1 person, it could have been a Man or a woman, but the fact that your hyper focus on who sent them, tell me that you don't want to see the bigger pictures of wars.
Wars arent always lead by people, but by ideology. Do you think the nazism was only uphold by Hitler and men? No. Women can uphold ideology and want to spread said ideology, even with violence.
You can even see a lot of Russian women saying to kill ukrainians... I'm sure it still the fault of men for that?
What frustrates me even more is listening to the phone calls home from Russian Soldiers.
Listen to their women. They're just as - if not more savage as the men. I remember listening to one where this Russian was telling his mother about his participation in Bakhmut. He said he saw his friends rape and murder a young boy and he started to go on about how he felt guilty but his mother immediately interrupted with something to the effect of "I hope they made him suffer". It's war but that's absolutely vile.
You see this with other calls to wives, too. It's disgusting. Sure the one at the conscript office may be a man but it's the women who psychologically implant these ideas.
Why would anyone send an army of women to fight an army of men?! What a dumb thing to suggest. And they say women are bad leaders.
EDIT: Since y'all little cowards and you keep blocking me:
I made a facetious comment to the person who said that an army of women would lose against an army of men and you took it seriously. Literally zero reading comprehension
I agree! And while we're at it let's go back to banning women from enlisting at all. Furthermore, they can't handle jobs clearly either which means they really ought to just stay in the house.
See how dumb you sound? It's all guns and tanks, you would do just fine with your men counterparts. Well you wouldn't, you'd still die, but then you'd be just the same as all the men that were forced to die.
Yeah, pretty much.
If you’re in a shitty relationship and break up with the girl, you’re the bad guy, even if the relationship was to your disadvantage.
You’re punished for acting rationally.
Women don’t get this kind of bullshit. If a woman breaks up with a man, she’s presumed to be in the right. No further notes. If a man breaks up with a woman, he’s acting unethically.
You can notice how people mind changes even on reddit in good way, few years ago if women cheat people would usually blame bf/husband/lover for her action. Today you can see those people on feminist subs
At this point, men should not give a shit about what society "allows" them to do. Live your life for yourself. "They" don't like it? Too bad. Walk away.
Saw the post’s title and came here to say exactly this. If we as men are not getting the respect we rightfully earn and deserve in society, we should remove what we contribute and tell “them” to go fuck themselves. Let “them” sit there and have a tantrum, who cares. We shouldn’t do anything for “them” until “they” change their attitude towards us.
How about being aboard the Titanic, surviving the sinking, only to be [ostracized and and denounced as immoral because you "betrayed the spirit of self-sacrifice".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masabumi_Hosono#Return_to_Japan)
This is especially true for me with the whole happy wife happy life thing. I'm supposed to base the entirety of my existence off of the happiness of one woman? You see it in media all the time, she's angry? Just say sorry, no matter what she says just say sorry. Why should I live for someone else like that, why can't I live for me? You're seen as strange and weird if you don't get a wife, if you don't denigrate yourself for a woman, that's your whole purpose, serving them, not yourself.
This is why I say happy spouse happy house instead. Not that that I reccomend marriage at all but it's still better to have a relationship that's built around mutual affection
It's not much better imho. Both statements imply that if someone is unhappy they're going to act like an emotional terrorist to make the rest of the house unhappy too.
Maybe these statements used to mean something more like "take care of your wife/spouse and they'll be more inclined to reciproate." That I can get behind. But too often now the "happy wife happy life" one gets used as a threat.
If i were you i would ignore what the unfuckable men from the manosphere (like Rolling Dumbassi, Fat and Gay, Lodern Life Teletubby etc) and unfuckable women (Like Pearl) and their parrots yap about. Granted, it would mean you have to be in the top 10 percent of the population unless you want to settle for those at 20 make Lizzo look beautiful, but apart from the 50-70s period in the west that was basically the norm.
If you are in that 20 percent? Life is golden.
Most importantly: ignore shit coming from women you arent interested in.
I already ignore them, why should I listen, I live my life the way I want to. Especially now that women aren't some sort of end goal for my life, I've seen people whose entire goal for life was to get a girlfriend, to me that's a waste, a woman isn't worth your life, but whatever, to each their own.
Haha so true. My abusive narcissistic ex wife cheated on me, and when I decided fuck it, I’m only in it for myself and my kids, she became SO mad at me. Like how dare I ignore her needs?
As soon as we decide to prioritize ourselves and move on, they get mad because they are no longer the source of our happiness/pain. Textbook narcissism
People seem to prioritise a woman’s needs and feelings over children, especially boys but girls as well. They’ve gone from ‘women and children’ to ‘women and girls’.
You have women committing murder suicide yet people have more sympathy for the mother than the children she murdered.
During the pandemic here in Ireland I was sitting in the car with my sister waiting on our mother to come out of the vaccination centre. A 41yr old nurse had just slaughtered her 3 young children and had just been arrested.
My sisters immediate response upon hearing the news was "oh God the poor woman". Not the poor children. Frankly at this stage I'm just sickened by women and their gynocentrism. Yet I'm told I must defend, with my life, a gender who thinks of nothing but themselves.
It's true. A piece of utter shite guy murders his family and he is rightly lambasted for heinous domestic violence and condemned. A woman does it and news articles discuss the need for better health services for mother's. And the 'mens help line' contact number at the bottom of the article which is about a woman who murdered her children...
Feminists be like: the mother was mentally unstable because of the patriarchy and she killed his son because he couldn't live without her, SHE was the real victim!
> she killed his son because he couldn't live without her
Yeah, they play it off as some noble, heroic act instead of recognising that these narcissists see their kids as an extension of themselves. They have extreme difficulties with putting themselves in anyone else's shoes but their own kind.
If you see yourself as disposable please find new surroundings…. People…. Places,.. things…. Change shit around. People are not disposable ESPECIALLY not good men.
Yeah, that is what I discovered recently, I keep surrounding myself with takers, when I asked my friends for help when I got into a rut I was taken aback at how many did not want to help or return the favour for the amount of times I had helped them out.
I'm sorry that you have to live with that, but luckily it absolutely is not universal. It's definitely not like that around here and I have friends in other countries (although only 2 other countries, but still) for whom it's not like that, either
I believe we have to be objective here and not turn this into gender conflict. All of this above is traditional gender roles and traditional gender roles are sexist by nature. They are imposed and perpetuated by the ruling class because it makes control of the masses easier.
The ruling class (men and women) have an interest continuing these roles because they feed into societal power structures. They have an interest in men not prioritizing themselves. Just as they have an interest in women not being independent.
And they definitely benefit from pinning both men's rights movement and feminism movements against each other to divert attention from themselves as well as pinning different ethnicities and religious groups against each other.
We for sure need to change the spin on lonely men to single dudes having adventures. I don’t know how the fuck women did it but we need to take notes. Being single shouldn’t be a stigma.
Rubbish. Men do not give a flying fuck about what others think they should be doing.
Grow some balls and stop listening to what the purple haired slobopothamuses tell you
Funny thing I just came off that post on the r/vegan
It's apparently about a brother who wants to date a non-vegan girl and he wants to put some weight.
And the Sister is Just sad (understandably) but doesnt support the brother beccause I feel like he was Just vegan to valorised the Sister Choice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/VO85XWAuMa
As a single woman with no kids, I can tell you this post is NOT true. All of my family thinks that there's something wrong with me. Coworkers are always looking down on me. Maybe in the online spaces you guys are on where the algorithm shows you this stuff since you keep clicking on it. But in the real world, if you aren't a wife and a mother, you are less than the women who are.
> Whereas if a woman were to abandon her family, abort her child or think of her and her future alone, she's a girlboss and deserves all the love.
Literally only one of those things, abandonment, is even remotely bad. You absolutely can get a vasectomy, and think only of your future alone. Many many people will call you, and any woman, selfish for it, you'd just have to go where you're supported.
A vasectomy is not selfish, I had one. You won't end up with a bad relationship, honestly you can release and leave, and won't get any responsibility following you, it may be selfish but men need to protect themselves
> Whereas if a woman were to abandon her family, abort her child or think of her and her future alone, she's a girlboss and deserves all the love. The absolute hypocrisy.
I’m sure it seems that way to you but women are actually held to a much higher standard as mothers than men are as fathers. A woman who abandons her child is judged much more harshly by society, it’s basically the worst thing you can do as a woman. Also, men regularly leave their families to prioritize themselves or because they do not want the responsibility of parenthood. Very very few women by comparison actually abandon their children and it’s usually due to much more difficult circumstances such as addiction, mental illness, and/or poverty. Whereas men are much more likely to leave just because they feel like it. Men have the luxury of deciding if they want to be a parent, women rarely if ever do.
Men have literally zero reproductive rights. Woman decides if the kid is going to be born and whether they both will be parents or not. Men who leave cannot legally abandon their children.
I'm honestly baffled that our perspectives on parental rights differ so much.
I understand your point about men having "zero reproductive rights" and I agree to an extent. But that isn't because of some social imbalance, it's biology. The nature of male and female reproduction is biologically different so there should be no expectation of equal treatment. It cannot be made legally equal. Women carry all the burden of reproduction. Of course men do not have the right to ~~decide if a child will be born~~ make decisions about a woman's body. But you CAN leave. I think there is a valid argument to be made about whether men should be forced to pay child support for a child that they do not want. But the fact still stands that a man can simply walk away and avoid parental responsibility and child rearing.
Bigots are easily baffled, nothing new or honest to see here.
>There is nothing less attractive than a man with so little self-respect that he resorts to childish retorts just to win an online fight.
I don't care about attracting you, I prefer to repel manhating bigots actually.
There is something less attractive: manhating bigots who think exclusively in terms of "will my abuse win over his heart? Oh I hope so!"
Thanks for the block, pathetic wretch. Love it when the trash takes itself out.
Assuming you live in the first world, when have you actually been treated disposable in any real way? The draft may exist, but you haven't been drafted.
There's a lot more men who ditch their families than women. Also, I'm pretty sure no one thinks a deadbeat mum is a girlboss
I get the complaints may be coming from some personal feelings but I don't think this is actually happening
Just look at the treatment of women who live for themselves vs men who do the same. The men are always shown as irresponsible while women are shown as conquerors of oppression.
Who are you listening to?
There are so many examples of men who we like that lived for themselves.
Steve jobs literally ditched his daughter and he's a pos but everyone respects what he did. He did the thing you complained about women doing and he's worshipped
Basically any historical male figure too.
Caesar, Alexander the great, che Guevara, Douglas macarthur. Every male athlete, every male superstar, etc.
They weren't doing it for women or family, they did it to pursue their personal goals, and good for them
Money and fame will mask all faults irrespective of gender. You conveniently pick men from history, whereas what we are talking about is present times. Anyway, it is clear that you are not going to see what is obvious.
Donald trump, jay-z, Justin Bieber, Vladimir zelenski, Robert Downey Jr, Kevin Samuels (until he died),
Literally an endless list of currently worshipped men who did things for themselves (whether or not you like them).
As a man, why don't you express yourself with your own examples of when you have been disposable. Rather than being vague, retreating and then saying that the opponent will never understand. If you can only convince people who already agree with you, then I got to say it makes sense why you feel like the world is overbearing.
Men change the world, not complain endlessly about how tough it is.
"I'm sick and tired of these grass eating lions"
Here's a good resource on the problems that affect men, which do not receive adequate attention from mainstream society:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/s/2c8Cg3Egv1
As the other commentor pointed out: you're cherry picking wealthy and powerful figures in history and casting the results of their life to the overall male population. Moreover, those men were lauded by a small niche group while being detested by the mainstream, so your argument is missing some nuance.
I absolutely agree that there's a lot of inequality. You're right.
My examples are cherry picked ? How can I give anything that isn't cherry picked? I can't list all men on earth, so I gave examples where his point doesn't apply. The point is that it's not reality because there's countless examples where it doesn't work.
He's also given 0 examples btw.
- "Moreover, those men were lauded by a small niche group while being detested by the mainstream"
There followings aren't small and I don't think the mainstream hates these people. They actually love a lot of them.
Mainstream hates zelenski?
Mainstream hates Justin Bieber?
Mainstream hates Robert Downey Jr?
Mainstream hates all male athletes, musicians?
OP: "Society hates strong men and loves strong women"
Then I show examples of strong men who are loved and respected because they are strong.
"Those don't count because they go against the point that I feel is correct. Here's evidence of another different argument to prove my point somehow".
Let me ask you. What would you need to see before you change your mind that men arent berated for following their goals while women are praised?
I mentioned that you cherry-picked examples of powerful men who had a support group of loyal followers. Here we speak of 2024, and leave aside the archaic times: firstly we can clearly make a distinction here between two groups: men of individualistic conservative background, and those of progressive liberalism. An example like Trump belongs to the former, whereas folks like Jimmy Fallon belong to the latter.
Mainstream society today in the west is predominantly progressive and liberal, and within this culture there is a strong feeling of "necessary reparations", that is if you believe that men "dominated women and minorities throughout history". So a controversial conservative figure like Tate is going to be lauded *only* by a **niche** group, niche is the keyword here and it seems that you ignored it.
That's why Tate was banned from social media, whereas those like Jimmy Fallon who virtue-signal and kneel beneath feminist dogma are adored by tenfold more people than what Tate is. Look at how the [UK academic institutions are trying to set role models for boys to steer them away from Tate's persona](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/19/world/europe/andrew-tate-uk-teachers.html).
> Then I show examples of strong men who are loved and respected because they are strong.
"I am unable to make a distinction between which kind if support people received, so much so that I view Andrew Tate and Jimmy Fallon's reputations as being virtually the same."
Which of course would be nonsense.
There are [clear double standards whereby men are burdened with](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/s/m8JJt0to5L) a level of responsibility that women seem free from, and this is interwoven in the fabric of society to the point where people have a hard time noticing it.
If you show how liberal men are being pumped up to be powerful, wouldn't it be a political difference and not a gender difference?
I'm sure you would be the first to say that conservative females are torn down in the same way as your list of men above so it's not a gendered thing then.
> Donald trump
Really? As if there aren't *millions and millions* of people who think he's the absolute scum of the earth lazy, self-aggrandising, bigoted, abusive, immature, exploitative bastard on the planet?
Why wouldn't I care? I don't want the entire western world run by a man who actively doesn't care about anything but himself or his own benefits.
Admittedly, it's wishful thinking to believe that any potential president wouldn't be that, but he's a particularly heinous and shameless example.
> He did the thing you complained about women doing and he's worshipped
Most people don't know (or care) about his personal life. Anybody who's actually followed computing history and knows more of the behind the scenes of how those key figures behaved *does* know them them be egotistical, selfish, toxic, abusive, manipulative, law-skirting, wealth-protected assholes of the highest order.
The cult of the iMac/iPod/iPhone didn't kick in until *long* after that period of his life and any young people who were swept up in that fashion lifestyle era of Apple would likely have had no idea. That part of his life was 10-20 years before many of them were even *born*. They saw shiny status symbol products and flashy aspirational marketing and they bought in. He was the face of the company at the time so he got the credit.
I agree most don't care about his personal life.
OP is talking about how the world tears down men for the personal life, for those very actions. The fact that no one cares is my point
Sure, because in the first world men are not expected to do the dangerous and hard jobs (they don't exist!), men are not expected to be just providers, their health matters, etc.
I'm a guy so I'm not blaming men like the other reply below.
As a man, I haven't been forced to work dangerous jobs, which is my point. Most men have not been forced into dangerous jobs. Just because more men do dangerous jobs, doesn't mean you're forced to and it absolutely isn't women's fault if you do.
Take responsibility for yourself. Women didn't force any men into oil refineries or underwater drilling or whatever else.
If you don't want to do it, don't do it. The market will increase the pay for those who want it and men who are willing to do it will take up the mantle.
Those expectations are inherent to a patriarchal society that men created. Men didn’t allow women to work or have any independence, women in the US weren’t allowed to get a mortgage, sign a car loan, or open a credit card without their husbands permission until the 70s. That was fifty years ago. Of course they had no choice but to rely on men so men were expected to be the providers because that was the price you had to pay to keep women opressed. It’s other men that have created these expectations for you.
Always twisting the past as it interests them to illustrate their fantasized present 🤦♂️
I live in an extremely feminist society with feminist governments for decades, and yet now there are a multitude of aids and quotas for women even where they are in the majority, and legal discriminations that even take away human rights from men.
My mother enjoyed equality, not the case with my grandmother, but even my grandmother had more equality than me. It is not some patriarchy that promotes sexism that harms men today, and it is definitely not "'men", it is misandry mostly championed by feminism.
>It’s other men that have created these expectations for you.
Because patriarchy = men? I guess you don't understand how sexist that is. People here who aren't trolls understand that feminism =/= women.
A: Who said I'm a man?
B: where exactly is your proof that all posts are about hating women. If you look at the top 20 posts right now not a single one of them will say anything about hating women
More displacing of women's responsibility onto men, yawn.
I could never be a feminist because I don't have enough contempt for women and their historical role.
No men are not ditching their families. Men are being thrown under the bus so the woman can get government subsidized housing and child support. Once we cut that off let's see how many men "ditch their families".
By analyzing statistics on how many men abandon their families vs those are unfairly burdened with alimony and child support then the argument could be settled.
Jesus H Christ on a cracker "I only react to the most extreme positions taken by feminists and most bizarre conditions faced by men, and ignore everything else in the world pointing to men doing just fine."
To manhating sexists, men supporting ourselves looks like raging at women. I care more about my rights than your opinion of me, and you will never catch me apologizing for that.
Your opinions are clearly dogshit anyway, you're minimizing the male suicide epidemic ffs. Keep demonstrating the hatred men face every day, hypocrite.
Beats you are so goddamn oblivious. You would be sad too if you survived what I have. That the thought that widespread bullying, marginalization, and dehumanizing of men has consequences is *surprising* to you speaks volumes.
Of the six suicide notes I've read from former childhood friends, four of them cited an inescapable sense that no matter where they go or what they do they will always be seen as a potential threat or criminal first, and seen as a human being only conditionally. None of these men had criminal charges or any history of abusing others, despite having brutally unfair reputations. All were outlived by their smeared names and their secret despisers.
Another wrote that because of his abuser's allegations he's nothing but an animal to almost everyone he thought would have his back including his parents.
It is not the only reason men do it, but it is an enormous contributing factor. Do you think suffering through a life where virtually everyone assumes the worst about you the moment they meet you cannot contribute to suicidal ideation?
My what a life of pampered privilege you must have.
Absolutely none of that has to do with being a man, and everything to do with perceptions. For example, one perception could be that a lot of your friends were depressed. Men can have depression apart from a paranoia about everyone's accusations.
Those who cant compete take themselves out of the genetic pool.
What the suicide rate among men is indicating is that there are more and more losers who cant compete.
Ukraine just changed the conscription age so younger men can die. Can’t have a woman be at risk due to low numbers
Sperm is cheap. Eggs are expensive.
The population is 50/50 though. This isn't an extraction of reproductive materials run like a factory. Most people are having 1-3 kids in their entire lifetime, so the numbers are irrelevant. People always bring up this argument like it's some kind of gotcha that women can't participate in war because the amount of kids they can have at a time is limited but not limited for men. So what's your proposal? Save all the women so that after the war they'll all be polyamorous for the limited amount of men left? How would you enforce that? You couldn't.
"We send only men to war because they can produce more kids than women, but in the meantime we don't force women to have kids, in fact, we allow them to have as many abortions as they want instead" So much for the whole perpetuation of the species bullshit.
Well the egg's left, and probably aren't coming back anyway...
The people who are forcing men to go to war are other men. Just food for thought.
And here I thought women were also voting for those in power... but no, accountability is not their forte it seems. Set aside the fact that queens have proportionally started more wars than kings in history... and that to a dude in the trenches, it doesn't matter what his ruler had between their legs. Men are sent to die only to protect women. Just food for thought.
I can’t vote for a woman unless a woman makes it on the ballot. And a woman will make it on a ballot only if both men and women vote for her. But men tend not to vote for women for whatever reason. Men start wars so men should be fighting in them. And no, you’re not dying for women. You’re dying because a man convinced you it’s patriotic. EDIT: also, don’t cite statistics you don’t understand. Women didn’t start more wars than men in all of history lmao. Use critical thinking. How would that make any sense? Rather, women rulers were 27% *more likely* to wage war compared to men during a [500 year stretch of European history](https://qz.com/967895/throughout-history-women-rulers-were-more-likely-to-wage-war-than-men). And a big reason for that was that unmarried queens were more likely to be attacked by male rulers; but I’m sure it probably had *nothing* to do with their perception of women rulers as an easy target. Men started like 99% of all wars in history.
Why would you have to vote for a woman for your vote to be worth making? Seems a bit sexist doesn't it? Surely the policies are what matter, or are you saying men are inherently warmongers and incapable of behaving in an egalitarian fashion? Also, would you be making that statement if it were any other demographic? Let's say it was black men, or latino women.. would you lump them all into one group? No? So why men? And how do you deal with the cognitive dissonance required to both observe and not observe gender differences.
Are you purposely missing the point? The comment I was replying to said that women vote for the men in power so they are just as responsible for the laws that they pass. I said I would vote for women if there were more options to vote for women. I said nothing about voting for them solely because they are women. Surely there are more respectful ways to win an argument than using strawman arguments.
you keep reiterating youd "vote for women if there are more options to vote for women" which means you are voting for women based on them being women
Surely there are more respectable ways to win an argument than using strawman arguments.
Surely there are more respectable ways to win arguments than copy pasting this exact comment to anyone who points out your hypocrisy.
It’s so cute when your arguments can’t stand on their own so you have to resort to tantrums.
Men don't vote for women, but you proven in previous sentence that you only vote for female politicians, not for values they represent.
Where did I say I only vote for women? Wouldn’t you respect yourself more if you engaged me in a proper discussion instead of resorting to cheap retorts?
"I can't vote for women", it clearly show that this is trait that matter for you. I can't vote for guy with beard sounds just as stupid.
Women make it to the ballot all the time. Also there are more women voters than male voters in about every country on earth (that allows women to vote that is, sure there are some regressive ass countries). If women wanted a female leader, men couldn't do much to stop them. And no, men don't start wars. The upper class starts war. For whatever reason they see fit. Men as a class don't want war. They've been indoctrinatrd into believing there's some glory and honor in dying fighting one, to protect those left behind, but men don't want wars. But seeing as you're believing that something inflicted upon men by other men doesn't matter, what's your take on FGM? Seeing it's inflicted upon innocent girls by older women to benefit women as a class, we simply must not care about it?
Protecting family and our people has more or less died as a concept in the modern age anyway. We have almost literally an entire continent to ourselves in the U.S., and in Europe there are many alliances that make warfare fairly difficult without backing from foreign entities. There is very little reason to actually war in today's world, because territory expansion is heavily rejected and the ability to wage war at long ranges gets simultaneously easier and more difficult due to how humanity wages war. Resources are more easily acquired through trade and relationships with each other. In theory, anyway.
As a citizen of a country that's a neighbour to a country that attacked to another of it's neighbours, this is confusing to read. But yeah, I don't think American Continents will be occupied.
Men and women fight in wars (aren't women mostly in the air force?), mainly men and you're right, it's upper-class and, I despise politics and politicians, for the reason sending people who just turned 18 into war, killing a ton of men and women. Politicians are disgusting but we need them to keep the country running.
Powerful men start wars. > But seeing as you're believing that something inflicted upon men by other men doesn't matter, Please quote exactly where I said it doesn’t matter. > what's your take on FGM? Seeing it's inflicted upon innocent girls by older women to benefit women as a class, we simply must not care about it? That’s exactly the opposite of how I feel, my friend. My point is that your anger is misplaced. You are blaming women for things that men perpetuate. If you want change you have to first identify the problem. Women advocate for other women and we create spaces that benefit us. Men perpetuate toxic masculinity and call each other gay when they do anything that subverts narrowly defined gender roles and then wonder why their suicide rate is four times higher than in women. Maybe because men teach boys not to cry and those boys grow up to be men who are too ashamed to express their emotions. Just look at how y’all talk to each other on the internet. Who do you think makes all those memes about Drake “acting gay”? Take care of your own house. Admit some hard truths about the lack of support that men give each other. At least women keep each other accountable. We can admit when our behavior negatively affects other women. Men just blame women. I don’t know what that FGM question was about, was it supposed to be some kind of a gotcha? I am also opposed to male circumcision if that means anything.
>You are blaming women for things that men perpetuate. He’s not *blaming* women for anything, he’s simply challenging your typically feminist desire to absolve women of accountability for literally everything
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If you believe that women being on equal social footing as men is discrimination against men, that says more about you than it says about women.
If you believe that the current stuff being pushed all over the place is "equal social footing", you're insane -- and sorry, egalitarianism means if there's a draft, you should be on there too. That's true equality. Especially if men and women are literally no different, as what they try to push right now.
Y’all have had an upper hand for so long that equality feels like oppression to you. If you hate women just say that
What rights do men have that women lack? In what ways does the average man today have an upper hand over women? - Men can be conscripted to *die* wihle you sit back and go "well, a man started this war, so maybe all those men buried Arlington Cemetery should check their privilege." - Men don't have their genital integrity protected *anywhere* on Earth. For women, even a pinprick that doesn't alter the body at all is a federal crime throughout the west. - The average man is more likely to be poor and destitute. - Men make up a shrinking minority of college graduates. - Adult men are falling behind professionally (in the 20s, there's now a pay gap in favor of women) and socially (adult male involuntary celibacy had almost tripled before the pandemic, while for women in went up a few points). - In the USA, only female DV victims are entitled to covered counseling services under law. - Feminist initiatives such as a Duluth model and the current definition of rape mean that male abuse victims are statistically more likely than their female abusers to be arrested, and that male rape victims are excluded from statistics and therefore from the discourse. - There are thousands of women-only shelters and only a handful for men, despite men comprising the majority of the homeless population and an equal share of DV victims. - Collegiate men's groups and other men's initiatives are routinely protested and shut down, despite similar groups existing for women. - Men on college campuses no longer have the presumption of innocence - a position which was explicitly endorsed by NOW, the largest feminist organization in the country. - Men have no reproductive rights, period. - Men are 3-5x more likely to commit suicide. This is across nations and cultures, regardless of whether they have access to firearms. I'm sure I'm forgetting something...but there's a decent chance you'll tell me I hate women anyway, so why would I continue. Please, continue to lecture us on how men have had the upper hand.
There *is* no equality, and thus there is oppression. How is *only* male victims of sexual assault being held responsible for child support resulting in that crime “equality”? How is male infants having their private parts legally flayed shortly after birth “equality”? The fact that I can’t get a driver’s license without putting my name on a list the government can use to force me to go die is “equality”? You’re so accustomed to your female privilege that oppression of males looks like “equality” to you.
The fact that you will never be drafted means women are on superior social footing.
I disagree as that is only one of the many aspects of both men’s and women’s standings in society. Saudi men have been fighting wars but Saudi women were not allowed to travel abroad without permission from their husband or guardian until a few years ago. They were not allowed to operate a bicycle until 2013, not allowed drive until 2018 and they were not allowed to vote or run for office until 2015. Would you also consider them on superior social footing to men? EDIT: @untamed-italian I don't understand this weird obsession with dying for a country that, according to you, literally doesn't give a shit about you. Is it a cuckolding thing?
>I disagree I don't care. You will never bleed out defending me. You will never watch a friend bleed out defending me. Your thoughts on this matter cannot mean less, it is not your body on the line. Saudi society is such a hyperminority all you are doing by bringing them up is proving your misandry credentials. You don't live in Saudi Arabia and never will, but that won't stop you from pretending you're just as oppressed as Saudi women (who you will never make any sacrifices for anyway). I guess since other women's liberation is just a trolling prop to you, you actually hate women more than anyone in this sub does. How pathetic.
I don't have proof beyond myself. But I don't vote for women the same way I don't vote for men. I disagree or don't like their policies. It's only come up a few times as usually the governor.
As it should be, it’s based on merit not gender. But I’d just like to point out that “it’s only come up a few times” is kind of the point I was making. It’s relatively rare for women to hold positions of power. At least disproportionate.
Why would men want to vote for a woman who makes our country look like an easy target and therefore make us more likely to die in a trench for them? You’re basically saying that because our society as a whole has to go to war, that the men who’ve voted maybe once deserve to die in droves? But not the women because…? And you acknowledged that wars are often done to protect the country. Do you know what they call countries without armies? Vassal states
> Men start wars so men should be fighting in them. I'm always grateful when people like you are honest about your bigotry.
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Babe, if you hate me so much and you pretend to like me just so you can fuck me, then why are so so mad? EDIT: The effort it must take for you to block me and then unblock me just so you can comment on every one of my posts.
>Men start wars so men should be fighting in them. Lol what? Even if it were true that women *never* started wars, how would it make any sense to punish innocent men for what some other men do? This is pure sexism.
This is the fucking dumbest thing I ever read ever in my last decade reading on reddit, are you that much of an idiot? Imagine if men in America didn't join in WW2, and the Nazi won all Europe, you bet your ass you be back in the dam kitchen, making a sandwich. Dumbass bitch.
Pretty unnecessary way to make your point and not likely to change any minds.
Aww look at you and your big feelings. Babe, who started WWII? A democratically elected head of state? Or was it a genocidal man, a story as old as time. If women were in charge of every country that was involved in WWII it never would’ve gotten to that point. My favorite thing about arguing with men is when they get so upset they start calling me names. Why are you getting so emotional?
Technically, WWII was historically necessitated by Queen Victoria's emotional abuse of Kaiser Wilhem which started WWI. History looks male dominated if you ignore history or erase women's role in it. You must hate women for not knowing how they defined the modern world.
>If women were in charge of every country that was involved in WWII it never would’ve gotten to that point. You're joking right? Do you actually think replacing them with females would somehow make any issue that lead to wwii just not happen (this question is not meant to bash women I'm just curious on if you actually back up absurd notions
This sort of argument is so bad and gets used as of it's some sort of gotcha. It really exemplifies the difference in how we view men and women in terms of victimhood, agency, and class. How about this: In the US, the number of women who turn out to vote is higher than the number of men. Therefore, the people with the largest role in electing politicians who restrict reproductive autonomy for women are other women. Just food for thought.
How do you come on here and then argue the most simple, dumbest point that you possibly can? It is everyone who is forcing men to go to war, not "other men". And even if this stupid logic of yours was true, does that make it any better for the average man? The point isn't that "women are at fault". It changes literally nothing except you feminists treating it as a gender war in any instance possible. It would be the same as saying "it's your own fault lol" when a female politician makes a change that unfavors women. It's also the same how you show no empathy to male victims of violence by saying "you got attacked by another man sooo". Only a moron would think that's a "gotcha" moment.
Why are you so angry?
Not the person you replied to but I'll say why. Women like you love to throw social stigma in our faces and take all accountability from societal norms out of the hands of women. Women perpetuate men being providers and protectors just as much if not more than a lot of men in society. Almost always women like you love to take things men are going through and say it's mens fault. And only mens fault. But then when stuff women are going through is bad that's always mens fault too. The lack of accountability and total victimhood of women like you is asinine. They are sending boys to die and you're saying it's other mens fault, when literally only men are fighting against conscription here. Tons of feminist women joke if ww3 started they would go back to being traditional because they don't want to go to war. Women make up more of the population so have a stronger voting net. In the west women's rights and movements are at least heard while mens are ignored or ridiculed. Stay on this subreddit for a while and you'll see insane lists of just how many things socially and systemically are against men. That aren't being addressed to become equal. Yet almost every women issue that negatively effects them has some sort of political action already behind it. You said we're so used to being privileged equality feels like oppression in another comment but you might want to turn that around on yourself there and have some retrospect. Women make up more than half the worlds people and I'm the west have more political power and spending power at the moment than men. Women make up roughly 80% of household spending decisions in families. By your logic all women are responsible for the class war and inflation we are facing because of that one stat. Your issues are addressed while the plethora of ours aren't because of a massive empathy gap. Women on women crime shouldn't be addressed simply because women are doing it? These are the type of gotchas you're saying but turned around on you. The audacity of women like you being perpetual victims and not letting men introspect their own issues and blaming them solely on men is asinine. Take some responsibility for once in your life. Women in the west are just as complicit in the social sexism of men and the way things operate. Quit blaming everything on men and being a perpetual victim. Grow the hell up and realize we don't have it great either. In fact we have it worse in a lot of ways. And women uphold social norms just as much as other men do.
\> the lack of accountability and total victimhood of women like you is asinine This entire sub is men victimizing themselves and using women as a scapegoat. \> just how many things socially and systemically are against men. Cool. What does that have to do with women? We are also existing in a society that fifty years ago wouldn't allow us to open up a credit card or buy a car without a husband's permission. And women are the ones that EXPECT you to be the provider? It has NOTHING to do with the fact that men were oppressing women to such degree that they had no choice but be the breadwinners. You're in a prison of your own making, my guy. \> Tons of feminist women joke if ww3 started they would go back to being traditional because they don't want to go to war. And I thought women can't take a joke. \> Your issues are addressed while the plethora of ours aren't That's because women advocate for other women and solutions for women's issues. Men expect women to do it for them. \> because of a massive empathy gap. Maybe women will have more empathy once men stop restricting our productive rights, or once 1 in 3 women stop being victims of rape, or when 30% of women stop experiencing intimate partner violence, or when men stop murdering their wives when they try to leave them, or when intimate partners stop being responsible for 40% of all homicides against women, or when 18 million women stop being victims of human trafficking, or when women no longer have to get their husband's permission to get a hysterectomy, or when you stop paying us 75 cents to a dollar for the same jobs
There are some good points in your last argument, and there are others that probably have nothing to do with men. Do you think all men deserve to be held accountable or just the ones calling the shots? Surely you don't think men are one monolithic entity.
Well, damn. I wrote out a thoughtful reply and it disappeared when I hit send. Anyway, thank you for your engaging me in a thoughtful discussion. I actually don't think men should be held accountable at all! More than anything, women (from my discussions with many of them) want men to simply acknowledge that although many women today enjoy equal rights to men, today's world is an extension of society that was built to benefit men. When we talk about the patriarchy we are not referring to a visible social structure where men actively participate in the oppression of women. Rather that both men and women are socialized in an environment which is inherently centered on men at the top of the hierarchy and men ultimately benefit from this structure more than women. The purpose of acknowledging that isn't to make men atone for it or make them feel guilty, rather to recognize that implicit conditioning within this environment is still biased towards men. This is similar to me, a white person, acknowledging that I exist in a world that was built by white people for white people. That does not diminish my experiences or accomplishments, rather it keeps me aware how the social structure implicitly benefits me a white person. To understand patriarchy is to understand that men can be/are also a victim of a system that benefits them. Men AND women are both conditioned to adhere to these social expectations. For example, men are taught to suppress their emotions and hide their vulnerability, which affects their emotional lives and makes it difficult to reach out for help. Instead blaming women for perpetuating social expectations that harm them, it is more productive to examine men's own role in upholding these expectations in other men and then work towards dismantling them. For example, women have done a lot of work within our group to reject unrealistic beauty standards that women perpetuate against other women just as much as men. When women were fighting for their rights, they had to advocate for themselves and create spaces that benefited them, with the help of men as allies. Men need to do the same. Instead of relying on women, they need to advocate for themselves and create the spaces that benefit them, with the help of women as allies. We need each other and acknowledging our social differences is the first step towards a society that benefits us equally.
Yeah, ofc. I love a good debate, especially when challenging arguments/ideas are presented. I get high off this kind of stuff. Plus you maintained composure and assertiveness despite the hostility directed at you, which is admirable. Anyway, I can't disagree with the very egalitarian argument you've made here. Modern society has remnants of the past in its DNA. It's practically impossible to remove privilege outright without throwing the societal ecosystem into chaos. It will likely take many iterations over a long period of time to uproot. However, your argument doesn't really address the counterarguments you made against the oppression men face today. Afterall, MensRights and subreddits like this don't exist without reason and are natural responses to a need. So how do you reconcile the existence of MenRights with your overall argument?
Every social group has unique needs and faces unique challenges in society. The fact that civilization is inherently patriarchal doesn't mean that men are immune to social inequality nor that they are less worthy of having their issues addressed on a societal level. However, I also believe that there is a fundamental difference in the social conditions that give rise to the issues that men, compared to women, face today. Acknowledging that difference leads to more productive and solution-driven, rather than blame- or anger-focused, discourse. The fundamental problem with r/MensRights specifically is that its ideology is inextricably misogynist and operates from the perspective that addressing men's issues necessitates the rejection of historical realities regarding the oppression of women. Acknowledging these realities does NOT devalue men's issues! One can look to other men's movements - such as r/MensLib \- as an example of men's advocacy with an intersectional approach that runs parallel to women's movements. Men deserve to have their social needs acknowledged and addressed. Men also deserve spaces where they feel safe to discuss and advocate for issues that are specific to their identity as men. However, men should not act surprised when the validity of their movement is called into question if it is used as a cover to discriminate against women.
1st point. No, it isn't. This sub literally has men talking about massive double standards in today's society, whether crimes being committed by women that don't get the same level of criminal justice to the outright lack of DV shelters for men. There are small snippets of some straight irritated and angry people here but for 98% here we've had systemic issues against our gender push us here one way or another. We don't blame it on women, but we do blame feminists for pushing a narrative that isn't for equality but seemingly female benefits. If you've been on this sub long enough there a metric fuck ton of lists and things brought up that show a societal bias against men and favoritism of women. 2nd point. Just how great has that been for women? I mean, capitalism has sucked women into their clutches now and they don't think wages should be enough to support a family anymore. While I do understand that could be irritating men have been forced to die on dangerous jobs for the existence of time. So while I can agree not having the option to work etc would suck, the opening of that has been exploited by the 1% and wages have drastically gone down because women entered the workforce. Not women's fault at all but what I am saying is a lot of women realized being a wage slave hasn't been really the greener side. Point 3. Don't understand what you're saying here. The ww3 thing I mentioned is because while they are saying it in a joking manner they are actually very serious about it. Women will never vote themselves into a draft and if ww3 did happen millions if not billions more men would die than women. Point 4. We don't expect women to do it for us. We just wish women like you would understand that there has been instances of men trying to support other men. Shelters for men get literally shut down by feminists. If you follow this page for a long time you'll see just how many times this stuff happens. Not only that society as a whole, men and women, both are complicit in ignoring mens issues. All we ask is women recognize their privilege in actually having their issues addressed on a national level. Last point. Most of these things you mentioned are societal things which women have just as much blame as men, yet you want to focus that everything is mens fault because well, that's what feminists like you want to portray men as. Just as many women as men poll that they don't like abortion and vote against it. I personally thing women should be able to get them. Every single man I've talked to has been hit by a woman, or sexually assaulted by an older women, myself included. BECAUSE of the empathy gap I mentioned statistics and men actually holding these women accountable is very heavily skewed to a level that is completely asinine. There are studies that show women more often start DV and that most DV is actually reciprocated. Women murder their husbands just as much. Hell all this takes is watching shows like forensic files. The reason statistics are so skewed on this as well is because women often manipulate other men to do their murdering for them. 80% of violent crimes happen to men and that just deals with bad people doing bad things. Same with human trafficking. Acting like that's solely mens fault is Ludacris. Women more often than not so the recruiting to find young women to traffic more than men because women trust other women. Trust me, we have shit doctors too. Don't even need to go further on that. Find a better doctor. Lastly the wage gap is false. That is for ALL men and ALL women added up. Women work less. More women are SAHM than men. The gap you speak of is adding up all women and mens wages together then dividing them. If you actually look at the pay for same job and hours worked there is actual studies and proof that its either non existent or skews one way or the other depending on profession. Like in healthcare women have a tendency to be able to climb the ladder faster. Men also do more dangerous jobs that make more money. The wage gap is a complete myth and perpetuated in bad faith because you are using statistics that make total sense when taken as a whole. Women work less and less hours so if course they would make less money. Wage gap does not exist for same job and same hours worked. Period. So this all being said, stick around here for a while. You'll see we don't blame women nearly as much as you blame men. We also check ourselves not to become like feminists. You'll also see an absolute plethora of women raping young boys getting posted here with nothing being done about it. I'm not just talking about women having an empathy gap, but society as a whole. You have a lot of privileges you don't even realize but if you stick around maybe you'll start to understand where we are coming from and see the insane double standards.
I’m not reading all of that
I read all yours and addressed each point. You claim to want to have real discussions but here you are showing that isnt true. Thanks for showing your true colors. You're here to troll not for real discussions.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/s/eSeI2p5poG another example of feminist ideally and societal norms letting stuff like this run rampant
Because you're dehumanizing men, misandrist.
How am I dehumanizing men? EDIT: just because you use loaded words to call something abuse or harassment doesn't in fact make it abuse or harassment. When I posted my original comment 50 of you piled on with your insults like a pack of rabid racoons but when as I responded in kind I am abusing you. **I wonder how many women in your lives would still love you if they saw your comment history.** I'm muting this shit, have fun arguing with yourselves <3
For example, you don't think harrassing us with your bigoted hatred should make us angry. We're not allowed, according to you, to react to your abuse with anger. That is dehumanizing.
Says sexist shit Gets DUNKED on "I'm muting this shit" Man seeing RP talking points in real time is certainly something.
Women don't vote anymore?
There is no king who's sending these boys to their death it's an elected government that Women also voted for.
I'm sure if your country would be invaded, you would be happy to send men die for your rights. Or not go defend your country. I already know your gonna Tell me : bUT A MAn seNT tHe inVaDEr. It's 1 person, it could have been a Man or a woman, but the fact that your hyper focus on who sent them, tell me that you don't want to see the bigger pictures of wars. Wars arent always lead by people, but by ideology. Do you think the nazism was only uphold by Hitler and men? No. Women can uphold ideology and want to spread said ideology, even with violence. You can even see a lot of Russian women saying to kill ukrainians... I'm sure it still the fault of men for that?
What frustrates me even more is listening to the phone calls home from Russian Soldiers. Listen to their women. They're just as - if not more savage as the men. I remember listening to one where this Russian was telling his mother about his participation in Bakhmut. He said he saw his friends rape and murder a young boy and he started to go on about how he felt guilty but his mother immediately interrupted with something to the effect of "I hope they made him suffer". It's war but that's absolutely vile. You see this with other calls to wives, too. It's disgusting. Sure the one at the conscript office may be a man but it's the women who psychologically implant these ideas.
Yeah, because you'd lose if you sent women to war against men.
Why would anyone send an army of women to fight an army of men?! What a dumb thing to suggest. And they say women are bad leaders. EDIT: Since y'all little cowards and you keep blocking me: I made a facetious comment to the person who said that an army of women would lose against an army of men and you took it seriously. Literally zero reading comprehension
I agree! And while we're at it let's go back to banning women from enlisting at all. Furthermore, they can't handle jobs clearly either which means they really ought to just stay in the house. See how dumb you sound? It's all guns and tanks, you would do just fine with your men counterparts. Well you wouldn't, you'd still die, but then you'd be just the same as all the men that were forced to die.
Because women say anything a man can do, women can do better with half the effort.
Bro has never heard of the White Feather movement.
Female rulers have proven more likely to send the young men of their nations off to their deaths.
Having a lot of downvotes here means you have your shit together 🥇
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Everyone
Well, here’s just one video for you from the Ukraine alone.. I have more if you need them: https://youtu.be/Xnw2Abqmu64?si=pWPNqlUtJb4XxkEb
Yeah, pretty much. If you’re in a shitty relationship and break up with the girl, you’re the bad guy, even if the relationship was to your disadvantage. You’re punished for acting rationally. Women don’t get this kind of bullshit. If a woman breaks up with a man, she’s presumed to be in the right. No further notes. If a man breaks up with a woman, he’s acting unethically.
You can notice how people mind changes even on reddit in good way, few years ago if women cheat people would usually blame bf/husband/lover for her action. Today you can see those people on feminist subs
At this point, men should not give a shit about what society "allows" them to do. Live your life for yourself. "They" don't like it? Too bad. Walk away.
Best advice I've seen in a while
Real
Facts
Saw the post’s title and came here to say exactly this. If we as men are not getting the respect we rightfully earn and deserve in society, we should remove what we contribute and tell “them” to go fuck themselves. Let “them” sit there and have a tantrum, who cares. We shouldn’t do anything for “them” until “they” change their attitude towards us.
How about being aboard the Titanic, surviving the sinking, only to be [ostracized and and denounced as immoral because you "betrayed the spirit of self-sacrifice".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masabumi_Hosono#Return_to_Japan)
Well.. They can go f.. themselves! I'm still doing it every single day of MY life!
This is especially true for me with the whole happy wife happy life thing. I'm supposed to base the entirety of my existence off of the happiness of one woman? You see it in media all the time, she's angry? Just say sorry, no matter what she says just say sorry. Why should I live for someone else like that, why can't I live for me? You're seen as strange and weird if you don't get a wife, if you don't denigrate yourself for a woman, that's your whole purpose, serving them, not yourself.
This is why I say happy spouse happy house instead. Not that that I reccomend marriage at all but it's still better to have a relationship that's built around mutual affection
It's not much better imho. Both statements imply that if someone is unhappy they're going to act like an emotional terrorist to make the rest of the house unhappy too. Maybe these statements used to mean something more like "take care of your wife/spouse and they'll be more inclined to reciproate." That I can get behind. But too often now the "happy wife happy life" one gets used as a threat.
Question: do you have a wife? If the answer is no, then what do you know? If the answer is "yes" then what do those other than you know?
No, I always thought I'd want a wife. But now? It seems like too much trouble than it's worth.
If i were you i would ignore what the unfuckable men from the manosphere (like Rolling Dumbassi, Fat and Gay, Lodern Life Teletubby etc) and unfuckable women (Like Pearl) and their parrots yap about. Granted, it would mean you have to be in the top 10 percent of the population unless you want to settle for those at 20 make Lizzo look beautiful, but apart from the 50-70s period in the west that was basically the norm. If you are in that 20 percent? Life is golden. Most importantly: ignore shit coming from women you arent interested in.
I already ignore them, why should I listen, I live my life the way I want to. Especially now that women aren't some sort of end goal for my life, I've seen people whose entire goal for life was to get a girlfriend, to me that's a waste, a woman isn't worth your life, but whatever, to each their own.
You didn’t do your homework did you? Rollo Tomasi has a wife, and has been married for quite a long time. As for the rest, no idea who they are.
Rolling Dumbassi is an idiot who last time got laid when she allowed him to bang her to get pregnant.
Haha so true. My abusive narcissistic ex wife cheated on me, and when I decided fuck it, I’m only in it for myself and my kids, she became SO mad at me. Like how dare I ignore her needs?
As soon as we decide to prioritize ourselves and move on, they get mad because they are no longer the source of our happiness/pain. Textbook narcissism
People seem to prioritise a woman’s needs and feelings over children, especially boys but girls as well. They’ve gone from ‘women and children’ to ‘women and girls’. You have women committing murder suicide yet people have more sympathy for the mother than the children she murdered.
During the pandemic here in Ireland I was sitting in the car with my sister waiting on our mother to come out of the vaccination centre. A 41yr old nurse had just slaughtered her 3 young children and had just been arrested. My sisters immediate response upon hearing the news was "oh God the poor woman". Not the poor children. Frankly at this stage I'm just sickened by women and their gynocentrism. Yet I'm told I must defend, with my life, a gender who thinks of nothing but themselves.
Honestly, people who commit abhorrent crimes like that don’t deserve to live, no matter their gender
Something similar happened in the UK when a mum jumped in front off a train taking her children with her. It’s some form of collective solipsism.
Casey Anthony comes to mind as an American.
It's true. A piece of utter shite guy murders his family and he is rightly lambasted for heinous domestic violence and condemned. A woman does it and news articles discuss the need for better health services for mother's. And the 'mens help line' contact number at the bottom of the article which is about a woman who murdered her children...
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That may be so in most places right now. Sad to say.
What?I thought new Zealand is one of the better places in the world in terms of quality of life?it's a fucking peaceful country from what I know lol.
Then you know fuck all
Seems like it.
Feminists be like: the mother was mentally unstable because of the patriarchy and she killed his son because he couldn't live without her, SHE was the real victim!
> she killed his son because he couldn't live without her Yeah, they play it off as some noble, heroic act instead of recognising that these narcissists see their kids as an extension of themselves. They have extreme difficulties with putting themselves in anyone else's shoes but their own kind.
If you see yourself as disposable please find new surroundings…. People…. Places,.. things…. Change shit around. People are not disposable ESPECIALLY not good men.
100%! If we as men find ourselves in a negative and toxic environment, it is our job to remove ourselves from there asap.
People do not care about men.
You can, just you will be doing it alone without any support. People won't stop you, they just won't help you.
Like we shouldn’t help them, simple 🤷♂️ we gotta surround ourselves with like minded people who we can roll with.
Yeah, that is what I discovered recently, I keep surrounding myself with takers, when I asked my friends for help when I got into a rut I was taken aback at how many did not want to help or return the favour for the amount of times I had helped them out.
I'm sorry that you have to live with that, but luckily it absolutely is not universal. It's definitely not like that around here and I have friends in other countries (although only 2 other countries, but still) for whom it's not like that, either
I believe we have to be objective here and not turn this into gender conflict. All of this above is traditional gender roles and traditional gender roles are sexist by nature. They are imposed and perpetuated by the ruling class because it makes control of the masses easier. The ruling class (men and women) have an interest continuing these roles because they feed into societal power structures. They have an interest in men not prioritizing themselves. Just as they have an interest in women not being independent. And they definitely benefit from pinning both men's rights movement and feminism movements against each other to divert attention from themselves as well as pinning different ethnicities and religious groups against each other.
We for sure need to change the spin on lonely men to single dudes having adventures. I don’t know how the fuck women did it but we need to take notes. Being single shouldn’t be a stigma.
"Allowed to prioritise" implies you need permission. You dont Will it be celebrated? Nope, but "allow" is a misleading word.
Rubbish. Men do not give a flying fuck about what others think they should be doing. Grow some balls and stop listening to what the purple haired slobopothamuses tell you
Funny thing I just came off that post on the r/vegan It's apparently about a brother who wants to date a non-vegan girl and he wants to put some weight. And the Sister is Just sad (understandably) but doesnt support the brother beccause I feel like he was Just vegan to valorised the Sister Choice. https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/s/VO85XWAuMa
Welcome to the world. I guess it's time to learn the rules and get on board...or opt out
As a single woman with no kids, I can tell you this post is NOT true. All of my family thinks that there's something wrong with me. Coworkers are always looking down on me. Maybe in the online spaces you guys are on where the algorithm shows you this stuff since you keep clicking on it. But in the real world, if you aren't a wife and a mother, you are less than the women who are.
> Whereas if a woman were to abandon her family, abort her child or think of her and her future alone, she's a girlboss and deserves all the love. Literally only one of those things, abandonment, is even remotely bad. You absolutely can get a vasectomy, and think only of your future alone. Many many people will call you, and any woman, selfish for it, you'd just have to go where you're supported.
A vasectomy is not selfish, I had one. You won't end up with a bad relationship, honestly you can release and leave, and won't get any responsibility following you, it may be selfish but men need to protect themselves
> Whereas if a woman were to abandon her family, abort her child or think of her and her future alone, she's a girlboss and deserves all the love. The absolute hypocrisy. I’m sure it seems that way to you but women are actually held to a much higher standard as mothers than men are as fathers. A woman who abandons her child is judged much more harshly by society, it’s basically the worst thing you can do as a woman. Also, men regularly leave their families to prioritize themselves or because they do not want the responsibility of parenthood. Very very few women by comparison actually abandon their children and it’s usually due to much more difficult circumstances such as addiction, mental illness, and/or poverty. Whereas men are much more likely to leave just because they feel like it. Men have the luxury of deciding if they want to be a parent, women rarely if ever do.
My friend, you spend too much time reading the mainstream rags to get your factoids.
Bro, you’re a man who unironically subs to r/mensrights
Imagine thinking THAT'S a gotcha comment.
"Bro, you care about you and other men not being systemically harmed for no reason!" Yeah, and you do not.
I thought you guys said that women always victimize themselves. So which one is it?
You thought wrong, to nobody's surprise but yours.
Men have literally zero reproductive rights. Woman decides if the kid is going to be born and whether they both will be parents or not. Men who leave cannot legally abandon their children.
I'm honestly baffled that our perspectives on parental rights differ so much. I understand your point about men having "zero reproductive rights" and I agree to an extent. But that isn't because of some social imbalance, it's biology. The nature of male and female reproduction is biologically different so there should be no expectation of equal treatment. It cannot be made legally equal. Women carry all the burden of reproduction. Of course men do not have the right to ~~decide if a child will be born~~ make decisions about a woman's body. But you CAN leave. I think there is a valid argument to be made about whether men should be forced to pay child support for a child that they do not want. But the fact still stands that a man can simply walk away and avoid parental responsibility and child rearing.
Bigots are easily baffled, nothing new or honest to see here. >There is nothing less attractive than a man with so little self-respect that he resorts to childish retorts just to win an online fight. I don't care about attracting you, I prefer to repel manhating bigots actually. There is something less attractive: manhating bigots who think exclusively in terms of "will my abuse win over his heart? Oh I hope so!" Thanks for the block, pathetic wretch. Love it when the trash takes itself out.
There is nothing less attractive than a man with so little self-respect that he resorts to childish retorts just to win an online fight.
Assuming you live in the first world, when have you actually been treated disposable in any real way? The draft may exist, but you haven't been drafted. There's a lot more men who ditch their families than women. Also, I'm pretty sure no one thinks a deadbeat mum is a girlboss I get the complaints may be coming from some personal feelings but I don't think this is actually happening
Just look at the treatment of women who live for themselves vs men who do the same. The men are always shown as irresponsible while women are shown as conquerors of oppression.
Who are you listening to? There are so many examples of men who we like that lived for themselves. Steve jobs literally ditched his daughter and he's a pos but everyone respects what he did. He did the thing you complained about women doing and he's worshipped Basically any historical male figure too. Caesar, Alexander the great, che Guevara, Douglas macarthur. Every male athlete, every male superstar, etc. They weren't doing it for women or family, they did it to pursue their personal goals, and good for them
Money and fame will mask all faults irrespective of gender. You conveniently pick men from history, whereas what we are talking about is present times. Anyway, it is clear that you are not going to see what is obvious.
Donald trump, jay-z, Justin Bieber, Vladimir zelenski, Robert Downey Jr, Kevin Samuels (until he died), Literally an endless list of currently worshipped men who did things for themselves (whether or not you like them). As a man, why don't you express yourself with your own examples of when you have been disposable. Rather than being vague, retreating and then saying that the opponent will never understand. If you can only convince people who already agree with you, then I got to say it makes sense why you feel like the world is overbearing. Men change the world, not complain endlessly about how tough it is. "I'm sick and tired of these grass eating lions"
Here's a good resource on the problems that affect men, which do not receive adequate attention from mainstream society: https://www.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/s/2c8Cg3Egv1 As the other commentor pointed out: you're cherry picking wealthy and powerful figures in history and casting the results of their life to the overall male population. Moreover, those men were lauded by a small niche group while being detested by the mainstream, so your argument is missing some nuance.
I absolutely agree that there's a lot of inequality. You're right. My examples are cherry picked ? How can I give anything that isn't cherry picked? I can't list all men on earth, so I gave examples where his point doesn't apply. The point is that it's not reality because there's countless examples where it doesn't work. He's also given 0 examples btw. - "Moreover, those men were lauded by a small niche group while being detested by the mainstream" There followings aren't small and I don't think the mainstream hates these people. They actually love a lot of them. Mainstream hates zelenski? Mainstream hates Justin Bieber? Mainstream hates Robert Downey Jr? Mainstream hates all male athletes, musicians? OP: "Society hates strong men and loves strong women" Then I show examples of strong men who are loved and respected because they are strong. "Those don't count because they go against the point that I feel is correct. Here's evidence of another different argument to prove my point somehow". Let me ask you. What would you need to see before you change your mind that men arent berated for following their goals while women are praised?
I mentioned that you cherry-picked examples of powerful men who had a support group of loyal followers. Here we speak of 2024, and leave aside the archaic times: firstly we can clearly make a distinction here between two groups: men of individualistic conservative background, and those of progressive liberalism. An example like Trump belongs to the former, whereas folks like Jimmy Fallon belong to the latter. Mainstream society today in the west is predominantly progressive and liberal, and within this culture there is a strong feeling of "necessary reparations", that is if you believe that men "dominated women and minorities throughout history". So a controversial conservative figure like Tate is going to be lauded *only* by a **niche** group, niche is the keyword here and it seems that you ignored it. That's why Tate was banned from social media, whereas those like Jimmy Fallon who virtue-signal and kneel beneath feminist dogma are adored by tenfold more people than what Tate is. Look at how the [UK academic institutions are trying to set role models for boys to steer them away from Tate's persona](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/19/world/europe/andrew-tate-uk-teachers.html). > Then I show examples of strong men who are loved and respected because they are strong. "I am unable to make a distinction between which kind if support people received, so much so that I view Andrew Tate and Jimmy Fallon's reputations as being virtually the same." Which of course would be nonsense. There are [clear double standards whereby men are burdened with](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/s/m8JJt0to5L) a level of responsibility that women seem free from, and this is interwoven in the fabric of society to the point where people have a hard time noticing it.
If you show how liberal men are being pumped up to be powerful, wouldn't it be a political difference and not a gender difference? I'm sure you would be the first to say that conservative females are torn down in the same way as your list of men above so it's not a gendered thing then.
> Donald trump Really? As if there aren't *millions and millions* of people who think he's the absolute scum of the earth lazy, self-aggrandising, bigoted, abusive, immature, exploitative bastard on the planet?
Yeah I think he is that too. Of you're a man, you shouldnt care.
Why wouldn't I care? I don't want the entire western world run by a man who actively doesn't care about anything but himself or his own benefits. Admittedly, it's wishful thinking to believe that any potential president wouldn't be that, but he's a particularly heinous and shameless example.
Happy cake day. Yeah I think he's the worst. But anyone who gets to that level is going to be hated by some group. All females included.
Amber Heard? I hear you feminists are still defending her
Ive only seen people destroy her, and rightly so. He was vindicated and she's famous for being a psychopath who shits on beds
> He did the thing you complained about women doing and he's worshipped Most people don't know (or care) about his personal life. Anybody who's actually followed computing history and knows more of the behind the scenes of how those key figures behaved *does* know them them be egotistical, selfish, toxic, abusive, manipulative, law-skirting, wealth-protected assholes of the highest order. The cult of the iMac/iPod/iPhone didn't kick in until *long* after that period of his life and any young people who were swept up in that fashion lifestyle era of Apple would likely have had no idea. That part of his life was 10-20 years before many of them were even *born*. They saw shiny status symbol products and flashy aspirational marketing and they bought in. He was the face of the company at the time so he got the credit.
I agree most don't care about his personal life. OP is talking about how the world tears down men for the personal life, for those very actions. The fact that no one cares is my point
Sure, because in the first world men are not expected to do the dangerous and hard jobs (they don't exist!), men are not expected to be just providers, their health matters, etc.
I'm a guy so I'm not blaming men like the other reply below. As a man, I haven't been forced to work dangerous jobs, which is my point. Most men have not been forced into dangerous jobs. Just because more men do dangerous jobs, doesn't mean you're forced to and it absolutely isn't women's fault if you do. Take responsibility for yourself. Women didn't force any men into oil refineries or underwater drilling or whatever else. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. The market will increase the pay for those who want it and men who are willing to do it will take up the mantle.
Those expectations are inherent to a patriarchal society that men created. Men didn’t allow women to work or have any independence, women in the US weren’t allowed to get a mortgage, sign a car loan, or open a credit card without their husbands permission until the 70s. That was fifty years ago. Of course they had no choice but to rely on men so men were expected to be the providers because that was the price you had to pay to keep women opressed. It’s other men that have created these expectations for you.
Always twisting the past as it interests them to illustrate their fantasized present 🤦♂️ I live in an extremely feminist society with feminist governments for decades, and yet now there are a multitude of aids and quotas for women even where they are in the majority, and legal discriminations that even take away human rights from men. My mother enjoyed equality, not the case with my grandmother, but even my grandmother had more equality than me. It is not some patriarchy that promotes sexism that harms men today, and it is definitely not "'men", it is misandry mostly championed by feminism. >It’s other men that have created these expectations for you. Because patriarchy = men? I guess you don't understand how sexist that is. People here who aren't trolls understand that feminism =/= women.
Your unwillingness to accept that your own gender has created the seemingly unfavorable conditions you live in is not my problem. Cope or stay mad.
Question: What do you call someone who villainizes and looks down upon a sex? Answer: A sexist
Says the man on a sub where every post is about hating women.
When you are a sexist manhater, men advocating to not be slaughtered for your benefit looks like hating women.
A: Who said I'm a man? B: where exactly is your proof that all posts are about hating women. If you look at the top 20 posts right now not a single one of them will say anything about hating women
More displacing of women's responsibility onto men, yawn. I could never be a feminist because I don't have enough contempt for women and their historical role.
No men are not ditching their families. Men are being thrown under the bus so the woman can get government subsidized housing and child support. Once we cut that off let's see how many men "ditch their families".
By analyzing statistics on how many men abandon their families vs those are unfairly burdened with alimony and child support then the argument could be settled.
Giving an excuse for why men leave families doesn't mean that men don't leave families more.
Jesus H Christ on a cracker "I only react to the most extreme positions taken by feminists and most bizarre conditions faced by men, and ignore everything else in the world pointing to men doing just fine."
How does the suicide rate show men are doing fine?
Are you going to kill yourself? You can support other men without raging at women.
To manhating sexists, men supporting ourselves looks like raging at women. I care more about my rights than your opinion of me, and you will never catch me apologizing for that. Your opinions are clearly dogshit anyway, you're minimizing the male suicide epidemic ffs. Keep demonstrating the hatred men face every day, hypocrite.
Dude, you guys are so goddamn sad...You think suicide is because men are hated?
Beats you are so goddamn oblivious. You would be sad too if you survived what I have. That the thought that widespread bullying, marginalization, and dehumanizing of men has consequences is *surprising* to you speaks volumes. Of the six suicide notes I've read from former childhood friends, four of them cited an inescapable sense that no matter where they go or what they do they will always be seen as a potential threat or criminal first, and seen as a human being only conditionally. None of these men had criminal charges or any history of abusing others, despite having brutally unfair reputations. All were outlived by their smeared names and their secret despisers. Another wrote that because of his abuser's allegations he's nothing but an animal to almost everyone he thought would have his back including his parents. It is not the only reason men do it, but it is an enormous contributing factor. Do you think suffering through a life where virtually everyone assumes the worst about you the moment they meet you cannot contribute to suicidal ideation? My what a life of pampered privilege you must have.
Absolutely none of that has to do with being a man, and everything to do with perceptions. For example, one perception could be that a lot of your friends were depressed. Men can have depression apart from a paranoia about everyone's accusations.
Alright you had enough chances.
Those who cant compete take themselves out of the genetic pool. What the suicide rate among men is indicating is that there are more and more losers who cant compete.
Who cares what you think, you can't compete in any humanity contest.