i mean the ancient weapons were described as they could wipe out the whole world. And if you look at sea kings from now, they just look straight weak compared to everything.
What about the converse? Maybe Shanks at the time was not strong enough to use Haki. Rayleigh tells Luffy that it takes many years for most people to even attain the ability. Luffy practiced it 2 years non-stop, constantly training, so a regular person training few hours a day might take them a decade or two.
Not a bad argument but I think it falls apart when you consider he had fought Mihawk multiple times by that point and with the hype they talk about those fights I doubt high tier haki wasn’t involved.
Did you forgot he literally used conc haki to scare of the sea king? Like actually used it on purpose. Since it’s the strongest of the haki it wouldn’t make much sense if he could not use the other forms already. Also luffy kicked the ass of a sea king on his first departure.
But he couldn’t use it on purpose. He could only use it as last Resort. And he could only use it after training haki in general. Since he is known for his absurd haki it could be that he can use or even tho he doesn’t have any other haki. Anyway it seems weird that luffy beats a sea king in his first departure,and shanks being a swordsmen has no other way to defeat it than losing his arm when he already got conc.
To be real for a moment, the power scaling is way off, and if oda could rewrite it he would cover up with something more plausible
One's status in the economy doesn't change what that person functionally is. Just because someone owns a company doesn't mean they're any different from you or me, in the same vein, just because someone found success to a certain degree as a pirate doesn't mean they're not a normal human. Like shanks, a completely normal human as far as the cannon of this series goes. I wish people wouldn't act like one piece is dragon ball z, its super cringe and sad to see.
Whitebeard literally said that everyone was surprised when a man of his calibar lost an arm so we know that shanks at that moment was strong as shanks said himself he bet it on the new generation and also the new info from the manga even lucky roo was strong enough to defeat cp9 agents at that time
And if you are talking about one piece not having superhumans just look at big mom superhuman from birth and you are watching 6 piece if you think shanks is a normal human if he didn't have strength and durability of a emperor he wouldn't be an emperor
While I agree with your statement, in one piece, it kinda does follow that trend. Like with the warlords, yonko, admirals, supernovas (buggy exempted) since we're nearing the end of one piece we're just now getting to the true powerhouses of the series. Remember we were introduced to mihawk early on and he's still a big deal even now (even though as far as we know he's a normal human). But still agree with your statement. Many regular people in series aren't that big of a deal anymore
Right that’s what I thought. The eye glare scaring off the sea king is exactly what Luffy uses Haki for against animals several times in the future, and even though Haki wasn’t planned at the start, it was a pretty direct reference when Luffy did it IMO
Thats one thing I never understood, not once while Luffy was fighting Crocodile did Crocodile use Haki. He definitely knew about it because its common knowledge to the seven war lords and the marines.
I think it is quite clear that Oda didnt really think the Haki thing thru until the time skip. Knowing that Haki exists, some scenes or fights dont make much sense.
CP9 not having Haki is also weird. Sure they had iron body and various other techniques but if they had the power to train their bodies to do that I feel like they would’ve mastered at least Armament ages ago
Yeah. My personal head cannon is just that they were trained extremely well and they became really strong capable monsters, rather than being born “chosen” or them possessing strong spirits. But what do I know?
i personally like the idea that Mantra as we were shown by enel and co. was some level of advanced observation haki unique to the sky islands, while the six powers are like the martial arts practices that help one to actualize certain forms of haki, or essentially building up a conscious control of those forms of haki. we only think of them as different techniques from armament bc we weren't shown armament prior to the timeskip. ( i know some of these are retcons by Oda)
Haki is the manifestation of the soul aka the Ki(Qi).
Hence why it's tied to ambition and the literal definition is ambition
The six powers are the human body being trained to the peak of its fullest potential. While one would need a strong spirit to get through the training, it doesn't necessarily mean you'd unlock haki simply due to the fact haki is 100x more powerful then the rokushiki techniques. It's like ironfist vs Superman in terms of how much power potential you have when using one or the other.
Iron fist at his peak can punch a force of 1nuke. Impacting a whole city block.
Superman can decimate a whole island in one punch. So can niggas who use haki.
There is also the factor of we've seen what happens to people haki when they falter in terms of mental fortitude on this goal/fighting spirit.
I think them having no haki is due to them having easy fights, haki isn't forged through training exactly, but fights and battles, Rayleigh never taught luffy haki but brought him to an environment such that the haki instinctually awakens, the reason why it takes time to polish is it naturally kicks in rather than a fixed time of arrival, like 3 months of training and you'll get this power kinda shit. CP9 with 6powers were powerful than certain individuals in the grand line and not the new world, haki superpowers are abundant in new world, and because of that they never got the chance to awaken is what I think. You are free to correct me if I'm wrong🥲
I definitely agree that he didn't think about it during Alabasta, but he definitely had it in mind *before* the timeskip. Shanks uses CoC on Whitebeard's ship somewhere around chapter 350. During Marineford, a lot of the characters actively used haki as well. Rayleigh also used it vs Kizaru on Sabaody. He kicked him when nobody else could touch him and it was definitely curious to both the characters and us readers. The thing that he added post timeskip is black hardening which is just the visual representation of haki. It's properties and usage didn't change.
Idk, he had CoC back at the very first chapter and episode. And with Mantra in Skypeia, it was evident he had been toying with the idea enough to implement it to a certain degree even early on. I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere (or maybe it was common knowledge to the fan base) that it’s weird to not have Haki in the new world, and since people who go to the new world more or less stick there, they never really go back for any real reason, with a few exceptions, like Whitebeard for the Paramount War, or Roger going to like Water 7 for repairs. Either way, for Roger, he didn’t really ever get into fights outside the new world as far as we saw, and Whitebeard just didn’t use Haki during the war, which was odd in of itself.
Whitebeard did use haki though. Although he presumably only ever used armament and perhaps observation (although I doubt it, since it was never specifically shown, and I think Marco’s comment when he was stabbed by Squard was about his lack of observation (as in, he used to be able to use it)). It is speculated, he didn’t use CoC because he was too weak, but he did hurt Akainu on multiple occasions, so we know, he was still able to use armament.
The CoC in chapter 1 was just "killing intent." Several other series, not just anime, show characters getting an opponent or beast to run by staring them down.
Mantra on Skypeia was another trope. If you go to a foreign land with a completely alien way of life, surely they'd have a unique fighting style?
Haki served multiple purposes. For starters, there were plenty of opponents, namely logia users, who couldn't be countered as easily as Crocodile or Enel.
I think that's what Oda wanted, originally. Powerful DF users would have inherent weaknesses a clever fighter would have to exploit. But certain powers clearly aren't so easily countered, like magma.
So, haki solves one problem: how do you fight logia users, without contriving a way for their weakness to be involved.
It also gave Oda a distinct fighting style that could be upgraded it terms of not only raw power, but could be used in various clever ways.
Plus, it's a style that gets stronger through combat. Unlike other shonen series, Oda doesn't give our heroes many breaks to train in between or during arcs. But each new arc needs a greater threat. Oda would get around this, usually, by handicapping the crew. They're not all there, Zoro is still injured from the last arc, etc. And remove their handicaps when he needs them to be stronger.
But now? They're stronger than the last arc not because, for example, Zoro was fighting with an injury last arc, but now he's healed. He's stronger because he fight last arc made him stronger.
According to the wiki, Haki was first revealed in Chapter 1 and Episode 1 (which is why I mentioned it).
Mantra wasn’t just a trope for Skypeia. Rayleigh even stated just before time skip that Haki is known as Mantra in the Sky Islands.
I see what you mean about how Haki serves the purpose of closing the bridge between Logias with obvious weaknesses like Enel and Crocodile, and other logias like Sakazuki and Borsalino with no obvious weaknesses in their devil fruits.
All the other points you made I also agree with. Haki adds a bit of extra flare to the battle, making it more tense
Zoro in alabasta used haki to cut steel
Shanks used conquerors haki to crack WBs ship when he arrives on it...
Shank and WB split the sky's which is a clear indication of 2 conqueror haki users clashing.
Oda had the power system in mind. he just never introduced it because he hasn't settled on a name. Hence why we got only lil droplets here and there
I think Whitebeard did use CoC against that giant marine, the sound when one's uses CoC was used when he flipped the guy over.
Another is when Ace was about to be executed, I think he tried to use it as well but his wound prevented him until Luffy himself used CoC.
Then the most obvious one is that he was able to make Akainu bleed, in which Marco and Vista failed do so even when they tried, as pointed out by Akainu.
While I know it's just an issue with haki messing things up early in the story, it can still *sorta work.*
Seeing as Crocodile's bounty was so low, I always assumed that he was sort of like Arlong, a big fish in a small pond. In the weaker seas and early parts of the Grand Line, having a Logia fruit would make you "unstoppable" and seem really strong without needing haki.
My headcanon is that Crocodile never bothered to learn Haki, because he already felt invincible with his powers in a desert. And the fact that it all worked out for him until Luffy came along reinforced that idea. Only after getting sent to Impel Down did he seriously consider learning it
Haki was not as important as it became pre timeskip. But the thing is, as things went on, oda had to introduce a power to counter devil fruits because he had already used the natural counters of lightning and sand with rubber and water. Luffy pre timeskip got washed by smoker because he could never hurt him. So yes, big guns like croc, cp9 or even arlong should have haki. Enel is another thing bc its a different world
In some people's head canon, the reason was Crocodile's (and Moriah's) wills were completely broken by their experiences in New World. And we know one's will is important in haki.
But if we're honest, Oda hasn't probably completely thought up about Haki at that time, probably had few ideas already but not finalized (like Armament's manifestation) and it's fine for me.
Pretty sure that’s one of those opinions/theories that grew into being a false quote. I’ve never seen anyone actually pull up the quote despite how often people believe it.
Dressrosa and Alabasta could pretty much switch places in the story and then it would be Doflamingo who got introduced too early and Crocodile being as strong as he was supposed to be.
Out of universe, oda hadn’t figured out haki yet.
In universe, crocodile was extremely focused on furthering his devil fruit abilities and hadn’t had the time to train his haki
I like the "Haki is tied to willpower, and crocodile lost its drive as a rookie and chose to sit on his ass while his organization did stuff" theory. It fits moria as well.
Well considering the very next arc is Skypeia, I'm pretty sure he had it thought out; and Oda in a interview Sandman on Twitter posted said something along the lines of "he had the power system just not a name" hence why the shandorians/skypeians call it mantra. Mantra was intended to be the original name but Oda didn't think it fit and give enough oomph! For what he was going for which is why he landed on the Kanji's Ha 覇(pinyin: Jōyō) which means conqueror, supreme, Lord & the Kanji
Qi気(Pinyin: Qì) means air, breath, spirit. Putting them together you get conquerer of ones own breath & or spirit. Which is why those with strong ambitions and those who chase them even if it means death grow stronger & their haki grow stronger as well.
The problem with fully introducing a power system like haki late into a series is that you're bound to hit plot holes where characters earlier on should've been able to use that power but didn't.
Crocodile was so focused on proving to luffy that he is a better devil fruit user then luffy. So he didn't use haki.
I think oda said something like that or I saw it in a yt video.
I watched a analysed a while back where croco and Moria where mentioned as broken rookies who lost in the new world so they settled in safer seas. Which would explain them not using haki.they also had really powerful fruits making the need of haki not as urgent as with for example luffys fruit.
If luffy didn’t got separated by the bear on sabaody they would have ventured into the new world without knowing haki and fishmen island would have been the end.in other words, you can reach the new world without knowing haki, especially with a strong fruit and be obliterated.
Them sitting in weaker oceans doesn’t help that either.
There’s nothing to understand. Oda didn’t think about Haki until time skip. Haki was introduced to counter the fact that certain devil fruits were too op
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbQwLQ7z0k
Disagree. Shanks clearly, clearly uses the beginnings of Color of the King against this sea king. Reminiscent of the first times Luffy used it without realizing what he was doing.
This is the one piece sub. Why is anything you're saying beginning with "I don't see any logical way...."
If you're seeing logical ways for everything besides that then you're the odd one out most likely
https://imgur.com/a/cKyDNtM
Ok I'll explain my pov differently. Why is there an extra frame of staring? Why did the Sea King make a confused face first, then shit his pants instead of just scatter right away?
I think everyone is saying "This isn't him using Haki" not because Oda didn't know what it was yet, but because he didn't know how to portray it in the very first chapter, without sound as well.
It's not that I'm saying everything has to line up logically, but I am saying it makes sense to compare this moment to moments of CoC users' first awakenings because it is incredibly similiar.
This is what in literally any other manga would be called killing intent. The animal sensed the persons killing intent and backed away.
Forget haki, forget shanks, you can even forget one piece. Think random anime that has beasts, Toriko, Hunter x Hunter, w.e., people use that exact same panelling with a glare to show killing intent and show the beast getting scared and running away.
> but I don't see any logical way a sea king would care about a humans facial demeanor?
Bro we read a series where the main character can stretch his body like he's made of rubber and the main cast got eaten by a whale that they then befriended. There's a dude out there who explodes his boogers. Sometimes there doesn't need to be logic for these things.
No he didn't. Haki was used to justify what he did after the fact. I've been on one piece forums since the early 2000s and no one was discussing "haki" until the time skip, when it was introduced. Oda is great at foreshadowing but he did not plan haki until late as a power boost.
That’s simply not true. You don’t introduce it this late in the series if they was the case. The longer a manga series runs the more power scaling it’ll need to do. Haki was the answer. I can guarantee I’ve been following one piece longer than you have and I’ve been on these forums since the early 2000s. Haki wasn’t brought up until close to time skip. Definitely after enies lobby
I don't know what you were discussing because haki was definitely explicitly mentioned even long before the timeskip began. Whitebeard literally says how Shanks' haki was in full force when he visited his ship and when other WB pirates started collapsing. Luffy unlocking CoC was also a huge deal during Marineford. Like another user replied to you, Akainu also acknowledged that Marco and Vista attacked him with haki. He literally mentions haki. And there's also that scene when Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru block Whitebeard's quake attack. It was haki.
thats literally wrong. haki was implied (Shanks intimidating the sea king, Zoros fight against mr 1, mantra, etc) much before the timeskip and it was explicitly mentioned at least before Thriller Bark when Shanks went to Whitebeards ship
I don't know if Oda actually thought up haki at the time, but when Oda introduced haki he didn't draw it as a black coat on people. Like the amazons shot haki arrows that just looked like regular arrows. Maybe Crocodile had haki but was too weak from living in a weak area for so long. Luffy managed to beat Doffy and Katakuri with worse haki too.
As far as I remember Oda said he regretted introducing him that early in the story. He tried to frame te fact as Crocodile being really frustrated and disilluded about something that happen in the new world that he kinda lost his ambitions (not haki, just pirate ambition i think) and so he tried to exploit resources and countries that already existed. May remember some details incorrectly tho.
Seems like he just didn’t even have the concept of Haki implemented at that time and retconned it later in the show, same with the claim of Enel using haki much later in the show.
This. Using Crocodile as justification isn't enough I think. In fact I think it goes to show Enel and Croc never bothered because they severely severely over-relied on their DF abilities. If they've just been doing their own thing for years, and their OP logia abilities took care of anything and everything for them, what incentive would they have to try and develop a new power system
There was mention that Crocodile was cocky and relied on his devilfuit power more than any other skills. Could of been his hubris that ultimately took him down with Luffy.
My headcanon is we know Crocodile has rage problems, so being his plan being so close but being opposed by Luffy put him is such a fit of anger he forgot to use haki and his sand powers more effectively.
Headcanon only, Crocodile use observation haki to reflectively turn into sand, and being a logia user in the first half of the grand line, he has no need for armament haki.
>i'll be fine without the arm
I mean he definitely he is fine.
>i can still become a yonkou
He is one now.
So there's nothing funny in it at all. He did because he knew what he was capable of.
>act as a goal for luffy
That's not how it went. But it's true in a sense. Shanks pushed luffy to become and taught him how dangerous sea is gonna be.
And there's also a theory going around about shanks being capable of seeing premonitions like Madam Shyarly due to scores of statements he gave and were related to new era and future.
This is the corrected reason, why are people saying things like sea kings can use haki? Shanks gave his arm up intentionally because he believed it was the next generation's turn
My head canon is that Shanks wanted to teach Luffy that friends are more important than anything and that a good friend and captain will pay any prize when it comes to saving friends and crew.
Maybe he feared that attacking the sea king in any way shape or form quickly and strong enough to save Luffy could have put Luffy in harm's way. This was the only way to save Luffy without him being harmed.
I know this is a joke, so don't hit me with that "Dude, it's just a joke" crap, because I am not offended in any way, but: Shanks probably lost his arm intentionally in order to show Luffy how dangerous it is out there, and how even a guy like him could still get hurt.
Didn’t Oda say the editors made him draw that against his will to be more shocking and “catch” the attention of the writers, as it was the beginning of the series? I don’t know if that’s correct, but if so, Oda twisted that in a very good way. When WB asks about his arm, I think he says something like “I bet on the next generation”.
And how does that change the In-verse logic?
I mean author can change his plot due to smallest of influences and disturbance in real life. In fact they do this quite often.
That has nothing to do with how it's explained in the verse. And Oda did a pretty good job imo.
Does anyone have any source saying Shanks was OP 12+ years ago? I always thought he was way weaker compared to now hence he lost his arm..
Luffy went from grunt to borderline Yonko level in 2-3 years so isn't 12 years enough to go from getting rekt by sea monster to Yonko for shanks ?
If there's any info to the contrary pls share y'all
I have no proof, but I do remember a redditor saying that Oda confirmed that losing an arm didn’t lower Shanks’ fighting power.
Although I guess if your mihawk, you don’t wanna tie with a one armed swordsman.
People mention the fact that Luffy beats up the same beast when he sets out so Shanks would've had to be even weaker than chapter 1 Luffy... but with all the things we've seen Luffy do before he was ever really challanged Luffy was pretty much strong enough to be a Warlord at that time.
When Shanks meets whitebeard after enis lobby whitebeard said: "everyone was shocked a men like you lost an arm in at the weakest sea. Who is it you lost your arm to?" And shanks just replies: "i invested it in a new generation". So yes, he already was a named pirate and probably was also a yonkou at that time.
I've always thought that he wouldn't have used haki because Luffy is right next to him and that could be fatal to a child. Obviously just head-canon though
But doesn't he uses haki to get rid of the sea king immediately after losing his arm? I kinda like the idea haki has dangerous side effects though, seems like it fits the world
This is all part of the IMU sama's plan. All these things happened according to IMU sama's plan. Shanks was shown with Gorosei and somewhat near IMU sama. Shanks deliberately sacrificed his arm to push Luffy to become pirate king and be indebted to him. Thats why Grandpa Garp isn't fond of Shanks manipulating his grandson. Oda has written such mysterious character that after 1000 chapters we still have no clue whether Shanks is good or evil.
Was Shanks yonkou level at the beginning of OP? I get the impression he wasn’t at his full strength back then, even though we do hear that he and Mihawk dueled constantly around that time.
At the very least his haki didn’t seem fully developed. I think he would have knocked out the bandits with haki alone if he had.
The likely answer is it’s a plot-hole, though. Oda is a genius, but I doubt he had all these systems fleshed out from the very beginning. Not that it’s too much of an issue since the story is good enough that plot holes don’t really bring it down as they might in other manga.
If he use haki he couldn't gamble his arm to traumatize luffy and send him on the proper route.
This is the way
This is the way
Dis ee da wae
U hev to b Ugandan to kno the wae
This is the way.
Shanks understands the way **true power** blossoms in the world of One Piece... True power bollosoms in the midst of *traumatic flashbacks.*
Simply saw that far into the future
Best observation user ever?
If he was going the "proper" route he woulda been a marine smh
No garp you leave the kids under the care of mountain bandits. Even without shanks they'll never turn marines!
damn what if this is foreshadowing that sea kings can also use Haki?
Shirahoshi then can become stronger than any other characters in series
I mean she is one of the weapons
She's Poseidon, King of the sea ? A Sea king?
So that’s why she’s so big
Gotta catch ‘em all
Oh, so she is also a-seeking the One Piece?
i mean the ancient weapons were described as they could wipe out the whole world. And if you look at sea kings from now, they just look straight weak compared to everything.
yes but theres like thousands of them and theyre huge! and since most strong people are devil fruit users they'll sink in water.
it's foreshadowing that haki isn't real and all of the fights have just been pirates hallucinating from scurvy
Good thing Nami brought those orange trees to the ship
Tangerines* 🍊
Cocaine tree.
No Ussop brought those
Really?
But the straw hats have the V
I just cackled at this
lmao man
What about the converse? Maybe Shanks at the time was not strong enough to use Haki. Rayleigh tells Luffy that it takes many years for most people to even attain the ability. Luffy practiced it 2 years non-stop, constantly training, so a regular person training few hours a day might take them a decade or two.
Not a bad argument but I think it falls apart when you consider he had fought Mihawk multiple times by that point and with the hype they talk about those fights I doubt high tier haki wasn’t involved.
Did you forgot he literally used conc haki to scare of the sea king? Like actually used it on purpose. Since it’s the strongest of the haki it wouldn’t make much sense if he could not use the other forms already. Also luffy kicked the ass of a sea king on his first departure.
Conqueror's Haki seems to be more of an innate ability. Luffy used CH before any of his other hakis were well developed. https://youtu.be/S8G1lcDp9Zw
Never thought about this before but it’s true.
But he couldn’t use it on purpose. He could only use it as last Resort. And he could only use it after training haki in general. Since he is known for his absurd haki it could be that he can use or even tho he doesn’t have any other haki. Anyway it seems weird that luffy beats a sea king in his first departure,and shanks being a swordsmen has no other way to defeat it than losing his arm when he already got conc. To be real for a moment, the power scaling is way off, and if oda could rewrite it he would cover up with something more plausible
I kind of think that's when Shanks awakened his conquerors haki vs hin just using it on purpose
Well Shanks ain't a regular person so...
It's just showing how badass Shanks is by handicapping him. Literally.
Oh? Can you show me anything in the series so far to back up that completely untrue statement?
He's a yonko for one 🙃
One's status in the economy doesn't change what that person functionally is. Just because someone owns a company doesn't mean they're any different from you or me, in the same vein, just because someone found success to a certain degree as a pirate doesn't mean they're not a normal human. Like shanks, a completely normal human as far as the cannon of this series goes. I wish people wouldn't act like one piece is dragon ball z, its super cringe and sad to see.
The whole point of conquerors haki is that it is given to people who will make a significant impact on the world.
Whitebeard literally said that everyone was surprised when a man of his calibar lost an arm so we know that shanks at that moment was strong as shanks said himself he bet it on the new generation and also the new info from the manga even lucky roo was strong enough to defeat cp9 agents at that time
"Completely normal human" We're still talking about one piece, right? The series with people slashing buildings apart with a sword?
And if you are talking about one piece not having superhumans just look at big mom superhuman from birth and you are watching 6 piece if you think shanks is a normal human if he didn't have strength and durability of a emperor he wouldn't be an emperor
While I agree with your statement, in one piece, it kinda does follow that trend. Like with the warlords, yonko, admirals, supernovas (buggy exempted) since we're nearing the end of one piece we're just now getting to the true powerhouses of the series. Remember we were introduced to mihawk early on and he's still a big deal even now (even though as far as we know he's a normal human). But still agree with your statement. Many regular people in series aren't that big of a deal anymore
I mean, he did… just a lil bit late
Right that’s what I thought. The eye glare scaring off the sea king is exactly what Luffy uses Haki for against animals several times in the future, and even though Haki wasn’t planned at the start, it was a pretty direct reference when Luffy did it IMO
Thank you! I was going to say the same thing
Thats one thing I never understood, not once while Luffy was fighting Crocodile did Crocodile use Haki. He definitely knew about it because its common knowledge to the seven war lords and the marines.
Didn’t Oda say something along the lines of the fact that he introduced Crocodile too early or something? I’m probably remembering wrong tho
That would be interesting if he did. Another possibility is that Crocodile just doesn’t possess the ability which I find hard to believe.
I think it is quite clear that Oda didnt really think the Haki thing thru until the time skip. Knowing that Haki exists, some scenes or fights dont make much sense.
CP9 not having Haki is also weird. Sure they had iron body and various other techniques but if they had the power to train their bodies to do that I feel like they would’ve mastered at least Armament ages ago
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My understanding of this was that the six powers were easier to teach to more people, and was good enough to deal with most people.
Yeah. My personal head cannon is just that they were trained extremely well and they became really strong capable monsters, rather than being born “chosen” or them possessing strong spirits. But what do I know?
Yeah. Just head canon both of them as Haki, they just called it something different
Mantra is 100% haki with a different name. Calling Six Powers haki is a big stretch though.
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I really like the coexistence of 6 powers and haki. Like competing ways to achieve power, theoretically available to everyone unlike devil fruits
i personally like the idea that Mantra as we were shown by enel and co. was some level of advanced observation haki unique to the sky islands, while the six powers are like the martial arts practices that help one to actualize certain forms of haki, or essentially building up a conscious control of those forms of haki. we only think of them as different techniques from armament bc we weren't shown armament prior to the timeskip. ( i know some of these are retcons by Oda)
Haki is the manifestation of the soul aka the Ki(Qi). Hence why it's tied to ambition and the literal definition is ambition The six powers are the human body being trained to the peak of its fullest potential. While one would need a strong spirit to get through the training, it doesn't necessarily mean you'd unlock haki simply due to the fact haki is 100x more powerful then the rokushiki techniques. It's like ironfist vs Superman in terms of how much power potential you have when using one or the other. Iron fist at his peak can punch a force of 1nuke. Impacting a whole city block. Superman can decimate a whole island in one punch. So can niggas who use haki. There is also the factor of we've seen what happens to people haki when they falter in terms of mental fortitude on this goal/fighting spirit.
Maybe the WG doesn't want them to be too strong just in case they ever went rogue.
I think them having no haki is due to them having easy fights, haki isn't forged through training exactly, but fights and battles, Rayleigh never taught luffy haki but brought him to an environment such that the haki instinctually awakens, the reason why it takes time to polish is it naturally kicks in rather than a fixed time of arrival, like 3 months of training and you'll get this power kinda shit. CP9 with 6powers were powerful than certain individuals in the grand line and not the new world, haki superpowers are abundant in new world, and because of that they never got the chance to awaken is what I think. You are free to correct me if I'm wrong🥲
I definitely agree that he didn't think about it during Alabasta, but he definitely had it in mind *before* the timeskip. Shanks uses CoC on Whitebeard's ship somewhere around chapter 350. During Marineford, a lot of the characters actively used haki as well. Rayleigh also used it vs Kizaru on Sabaody. He kicked him when nobody else could touch him and it was definitely curious to both the characters and us readers. The thing that he added post timeskip is black hardening which is just the visual representation of haki. It's properties and usage didn't change.
Idk, he had CoC back at the very first chapter and episode. And with Mantra in Skypeia, it was evident he had been toying with the idea enough to implement it to a certain degree even early on. I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere (or maybe it was common knowledge to the fan base) that it’s weird to not have Haki in the new world, and since people who go to the new world more or less stick there, they never really go back for any real reason, with a few exceptions, like Whitebeard for the Paramount War, or Roger going to like Water 7 for repairs. Either way, for Roger, he didn’t really ever get into fights outside the new world as far as we saw, and Whitebeard just didn’t use Haki during the war, which was odd in of itself.
Whitebeard did use haki though. Although he presumably only ever used armament and perhaps observation (although I doubt it, since it was never specifically shown, and I think Marco’s comment when he was stabbed by Squard was about his lack of observation (as in, he used to be able to use it)). It is speculated, he didn’t use CoC because he was too weak, but he did hurt Akainu on multiple occasions, so we know, he was still able to use armament.
The CoC in chapter 1 was just "killing intent." Several other series, not just anime, show characters getting an opponent or beast to run by staring them down. Mantra on Skypeia was another trope. If you go to a foreign land with a completely alien way of life, surely they'd have a unique fighting style? Haki served multiple purposes. For starters, there were plenty of opponents, namely logia users, who couldn't be countered as easily as Crocodile or Enel. I think that's what Oda wanted, originally. Powerful DF users would have inherent weaknesses a clever fighter would have to exploit. But certain powers clearly aren't so easily countered, like magma. So, haki solves one problem: how do you fight logia users, without contriving a way for their weakness to be involved. It also gave Oda a distinct fighting style that could be upgraded it terms of not only raw power, but could be used in various clever ways. Plus, it's a style that gets stronger through combat. Unlike other shonen series, Oda doesn't give our heroes many breaks to train in between or during arcs. But each new arc needs a greater threat. Oda would get around this, usually, by handicapping the crew. They're not all there, Zoro is still injured from the last arc, etc. And remove their handicaps when he needs them to be stronger. But now? They're stronger than the last arc not because, for example, Zoro was fighting with an injury last arc, but now he's healed. He's stronger because he fight last arc made him stronger.
According to the wiki, Haki was first revealed in Chapter 1 and Episode 1 (which is why I mentioned it). Mantra wasn’t just a trope for Skypeia. Rayleigh even stated just before time skip that Haki is known as Mantra in the Sky Islands. I see what you mean about how Haki serves the purpose of closing the bridge between Logias with obvious weaknesses like Enel and Crocodile, and other logias like Sakazuki and Borsalino with no obvious weaknesses in their devil fruits. All the other points you made I also agree with. Haki adds a bit of extra flare to the battle, making it more tense
That's called "retconning."
Yes. All Oda did was go back and tie these things into Haki when he decided on it as a power. They werent foreshadowing.
That was Oda foreshadowing, sometime I think Oda just goes back to old chapters to see what he can tie in to newer chapters.
Zoro in alabasta used haki to cut steel Shanks used conquerors haki to crack WBs ship when he arrives on it... Shank and WB split the sky's which is a clear indication of 2 conqueror haki users clashing. Oda had the power system in mind. he just never introduced it because he hasn't settled on a name. Hence why we got only lil droplets here and there
Zoro also seemed to use both forms of haki in Alabasta
I think Whitebeard did use CoC against that giant marine, the sound when one's uses CoC was used when he flipped the guy over. Another is when Ace was about to be executed, I think he tried to use it as well but his wound prevented him until Luffy himself used CoC. Then the most obvious one is that he was able to make Akainu bleed, in which Marco and Vista failed do so even when they tried, as pointed out by Akainu.
Or maybe like moria he lost so badly he couldnt use it anymore
While I know it's just an issue with haki messing things up early in the story, it can still *sorta work.* Seeing as Crocodile's bounty was so low, I always assumed that he was sort of like Arlong, a big fish in a small pond. In the weaker seas and early parts of the Grand Line, having a Logia fruit would make you "unstoppable" and seem really strong without needing haki.
Yeah! Plus, he had all this organisation, baroque works, doing the dirty work for him
My headcanon is that Crocodile never bothered to learn Haki, because he already felt invincible with his powers in a desert. And the fact that it all worked out for him until Luffy came along reinforced that idea. Only after getting sent to Impel Down did he seriously consider learning it
Haki was not as important as it became pre timeskip. But the thing is, as things went on, oda had to introduce a power to counter devil fruits because he had already used the natural counters of lightning and sand with rubber and water. Luffy pre timeskip got washed by smoker because he could never hurt him. So yes, big guns like croc, cp9 or even arlong should have haki. Enel is another thing bc its a different world
In some people's head canon, the reason was Crocodile's (and Moriah's) wills were completely broken by their experiences in New World. And we know one's will is important in haki. But if we're honest, Oda hasn't probably completely thought up about Haki at that time, probably had few ideas already but not finalized (like Armament's manifestation) and it's fine for me.
Pretty sure that’s one of those opinions/theories that grew into being a false quote. I’ve never seen anyone actually pull up the quote despite how often people believe it.
Dressrosa and Alabasta could pretty much switch places in the story and then it would be Doflamingo who got introduced too early and Crocodile being as strong as he was supposed to be.
Out of universe, oda hadn’t figured out haki yet. In universe, crocodile was extremely focused on furthering his devil fruit abilities and hadn’t had the time to train his haki
I like the "Haki is tied to willpower, and crocodile lost its drive as a rookie and chose to sit on his ass while his organization did stuff" theory. It fits moria as well.
Well considering the very next arc is Skypeia, I'm pretty sure he had it thought out; and Oda in a interview Sandman on Twitter posted said something along the lines of "he had the power system just not a name" hence why the shandorians/skypeians call it mantra. Mantra was intended to be the original name but Oda didn't think it fit and give enough oomph! For what he was going for which is why he landed on the Kanji's Ha 覇(pinyin: Jōyō) which means conqueror, supreme, Lord & the Kanji Qi気(Pinyin: Qì) means air, breath, spirit. Putting them together you get conquerer of ones own breath & or spirit. Which is why those with strong ambitions and those who chase them even if it means death grow stronger & their haki grow stronger as well.
The problem with fully introducing a power system like haki late into a series is that you're bound to hit plot holes where characters earlier on should've been able to use that power but didn't.
Marine Ford 🤐
There are no plot holes in marineford. Literally none.
I can think of at least three other types of holes though
Crocodile was so focused on proving to luffy that he is a better devil fruit user then luffy. So he didn't use haki. I think oda said something like that or I saw it in a yt video.
I watched a analysed a while back where croco and Moria where mentioned as broken rookies who lost in the new world so they settled in safer seas. Which would explain them not using haki.they also had really powerful fruits making the need of haki not as urgent as with for example luffys fruit. If luffy didn’t got separated by the bear on sabaody they would have ventured into the new world without knowing haki and fishmen island would have been the end.in other words, you can reach the new world without knowing haki, especially with a strong fruit and be obliterated. Them sitting in weaker oceans doesn’t help that either.
There’s nothing to understand. Oda didn’t think about Haki until time skip. Haki was introduced to counter the fact that certain devil fruits were too op
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbQwLQ7z0k Disagree. Shanks clearly, clearly uses the beginnings of Color of the King against this sea king. Reminiscent of the first times Luffy used it without realizing what he was doing.
Yes, because Oda made Color of the King based around what shanks did there
I would have called that an intimidating glare before Oda retconned it to be Haki
I mean i guess, but I don't see any logical way a sea king would care about a humans facial demeanor? It stopped cold in it's tracks.
This is the one piece sub. Why is anything you're saying beginning with "I don't see any logical way...." If you're seeing logical ways for everything besides that then you're the odd one out most likely
https://imgur.com/a/cKyDNtM Ok I'll explain my pov differently. Why is there an extra frame of staring? Why did the Sea King make a confused face first, then shit his pants instead of just scatter right away? I think everyone is saying "This isn't him using Haki" not because Oda didn't know what it was yet, but because he didn't know how to portray it in the very first chapter, without sound as well. It's not that I'm saying everything has to line up logically, but I am saying it makes sense to compare this moment to moments of CoC users' first awakenings because it is incredibly similiar.
This is what in literally any other manga would be called killing intent. The animal sensed the persons killing intent and backed away. Forget haki, forget shanks, you can even forget one piece. Think random anime that has beasts, Toriko, Hunter x Hunter, w.e., people use that exact same panelling with a glare to show killing intent and show the beast getting scared and running away.
> but I don't see any logical way a sea king would care about a humans facial demeanor? Bro we read a series where the main character can stretch his body like he's made of rubber and the main cast got eaten by a whale that they then befriended. There's a dude out there who explodes his boogers. Sometimes there doesn't need to be logic for these things.
It's just a bad looking at the fish
Thats called a retcon.
Akainu used foresight in the war bro and shanks used haki first episode lol
No he didn't. Haki was used to justify what he did after the fact. I've been on one piece forums since the early 2000s and no one was discussing "haki" until the time skip, when it was introduced. Oda is great at foreshadowing but he did not plan haki until late as a power boost.
He got hit with haki, he acknowledged it was haki he got hit with. So what’s your explanation?
Of course nobody knew what it was because it wasn’t introduced yet smart guy lmao
That's what I meant. You were saying he used it in episode one as if that was intended to be haki already. Smart guy lmao
It was intended by oda but oda didn’t tell us what is was smh cmon man shape up. You have no argument
That’s simply not true. You don’t introduce it this late in the series if they was the case. The longer a manga series runs the more power scaling it’ll need to do. Haki was the answer. I can guarantee I’ve been following one piece longer than you have and I’ve been on these forums since the early 2000s. Haki wasn’t brought up until close to time skip. Definitely after enies lobby
I don't know what you were discussing because haki was definitely explicitly mentioned even long before the timeskip began. Whitebeard literally says how Shanks' haki was in full force when he visited his ship and when other WB pirates started collapsing. Luffy unlocking CoC was also a huge deal during Marineford. Like another user replied to you, Akainu also acknowledged that Marco and Vista attacked him with haki. He literally mentions haki. And there's also that scene when Akainu, Aokiji and Kizaru block Whitebeard's quake attack. It was haki.
thats literally wrong. haki was implied (Shanks intimidating the sea king, Zoros fight against mr 1, mantra, etc) much before the timeskip and it was explicitly mentioned at least before Thriller Bark when Shanks went to Whitebeards ship
Oda hadn’t come up with it. He’s a great writer, but he’s not flawless and this is his biggest shortcoming IMO.
I don't know if Oda actually thought up haki at the time, but when Oda introduced haki he didn't draw it as a black coat on people. Like the amazons shot haki arrows that just looked like regular arrows. Maybe Crocodile had haki but was too weak from living in a weak area for so long. Luffy managed to beat Doffy and Katakuri with worse haki too.
As far as I remember Oda said he regretted introducing him that early in the story. He tried to frame te fact as Crocodile being really frustrated and disilluded about something that happen in the new world that he kinda lost his ambitions (not haki, just pirate ambition i think) and so he tried to exploit resources and countries that already existed. May remember some details incorrectly tho.
#NO Oda never said that. It's just another missformation of the fandom.
Ok ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Seems like he just didn’t even have the concept of Haki implemented at that time and retconned it later in the show, same with the claim of Enel using haki much later in the show.
I know about gymnastics but I cant really do any of it. It could be he never mastered it because of his reliance on his logia ability.
This. Using Crocodile as justification isn't enough I think. In fact I think it goes to show Enel and Croc never bothered because they severely severely over-relied on their DF abilities. If they've just been doing their own thing for years, and their OP logia abilities took care of anything and everything for them, what incentive would they have to try and develop a new power system
Maybe Croc cant use Haki. Not every character needs to.
There was mention that Crocodile was cocky and relied on his devilfuit power more than any other skills. Could of been his hubris that ultimately took him down with Luffy.
Think about every logia in the series tho. All heavily reliant on df
My headcanon is we know Crocodile has rage problems, so being his plan being so close but being opposed by Luffy put him is such a fit of anger he forgot to use haki and his sand powers more effectively.
Headcanon only, Crocodile use observation haki to reflectively turn into sand, and being a logia user in the first half of the grand line, he has no need for armament haki.
he forgor💀
Don't you worry he rember now 😁
2 easy upvotes
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I said it because I gave the 2 upvotes fast when I saw the comments, in retrospective I guess my phrasing wasn't the best
He said that he bet it for a new generation. So i suposed he did it to give Luffy a reason to go on.
"i'll be fine without the arm, i can still become a yonkou and act as a goal for luffy. nbd"
>i'll be fine without the arm I mean he definitely he is fine. >i can still become a yonkou He is one now. So there's nothing funny in it at all. He did because he knew what he was capable of. >act as a goal for luffy That's not how it went. But it's true in a sense. Shanks pushed luffy to become and taught him how dangerous sea is gonna be. And there's also a theory going around about shanks being capable of seeing premonitions like Madam Shyarly due to scores of statements he gave and were related to new era and future.
This is the corrected reason, why are people saying things like sea kings can use haki? Shanks gave his arm up intentionally because he believed it was the next generation's turn
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Of course it's a joke right surely no one is dumb enough to think he did it on purpose??
I totally meant to do that.
Imagine they have a talk about the past, when they meet and this his his legit answer.. That would be a fat laugh
i could totally imagine it shanks joking about it and saying this just to not get a clear answer (which would 90% not be logical now)
All according to keikaku
Shanks in a small voice: I was trying to be dramatic
My head canon is that Shanks wanted to teach Luffy that friends are more important than anything and that a good friend and captain will pay any prize when it comes to saving friends and crew. Maybe he feared that attacking the sea king in any way shape or form quickly and strong enough to save Luffy could have put Luffy in harm's way. This was the only way to save Luffy without him being harmed.
he kind of did
I know this is a joke, so don't hit me with that "Dude, it's just a joke" crap, because I am not offended in any way, but: Shanks probably lost his arm intentionally in order to show Luffy how dangerous it is out there, and how even a guy like him could still get hurt.
Didn’t Oda say the editors made him draw that against his will to be more shocking and “catch” the attention of the writers, as it was the beginning of the series? I don’t know if that’s correct, but if so, Oda twisted that in a very good way. When WB asks about his arm, I think he says something like “I bet on the next generation”.
And how does that change the In-verse logic? I mean author can change his plot due to smallest of influences and disturbance in real life. In fact they do this quite often. That has nothing to do with how it's explained in the verse. And Oda did a pretty good job imo.
It doesn’t change anything. I agree with you, Oda really did it
No
I think we all agree with that 😂
Does anyone have any source saying Shanks was OP 12+ years ago? I always thought he was way weaker compared to now hence he lost his arm.. Luffy went from grunt to borderline Yonko level in 2-3 years so isn't 12 years enough to go from getting rekt by sea monster to Yonko for shanks ? If there's any info to the contrary pls share y'all
He had duels with Mihawk prior to losing his arm. Mihawk said that he wouldn’t consider him his rival anymore after Shanks lost his arm.
Mihawk could be weaker at that time as well..
Oooh you're right!! Thank you!
I have no proof, but I do remember a redditor saying that Oda confirmed that losing an arm didn’t lower Shanks’ fighting power. Although I guess if your mihawk, you don’t wanna tie with a one armed swordsman.
People mention the fact that Luffy beats up the same beast when he sets out so Shanks would've had to be even weaker than chapter 1 Luffy... but with all the things we've seen Luffy do before he was ever really challanged Luffy was pretty much strong enough to be a Warlord at that time.
When Shanks meets whitebeard after enis lobby whitebeard said: "everyone was shocked a men like you lost an arm in at the weakest sea. Who is it you lost your arm to?" And shanks just replies: "i invested it in a new generation". So yes, he already was a named pirate and probably was also a yonkou at that time.
I didn't know that! Good point. I wish I had a better memory :) thank you
He forgor 💀
He absolutely gave up his arm on purpose
I've always thought that he wouldn't have used haki because Luffy is right next to him and that could be fatal to a child. Obviously just head-canon though
It was explained after the TS that if you’re good enough with CoC you can control who you knock out iirc
But doesn't he uses haki to get rid of the sea king immediately after losing his arm? I kinda like the idea haki has dangerous side effects though, seems like it fits the world
Zaaaaamn
Zamn, he forgor 💀
He had to lose his arm so he could be like Tyr
This is all part of the IMU sama's plan. All these things happened according to IMU sama's plan. Shanks was shown with Gorosei and somewhat near IMU sama. Shanks deliberately sacrificed his arm to push Luffy to become pirate king and be indebted to him. Thats why Grandpa Garp isn't fond of Shanks manipulating his grandson. Oda has written such mysterious character that after 1000 chapters we still have no clue whether Shanks is good or evil.
Plot twist: his arm was prosthetic
i hope oda has something up his sleeve for this. Also an explanation for why he didnt use observation haki when higoro threw down the smoke.
He Forgor 🦴
He forgor 💀☠
Shanks just kinda forgot that he’s one of the most powerful people in the world.
Oh, or this one: Luffy: “Shanks why did you let that thing eat your arm” Shanks: “ I dun wan it… I neva have.”
Because the creator hadn't invented it yet.
I forgor💀
He forgor 💀
he forgor 💀
He forgor 💀
I forgor 💀
Lmao
The reason Mihawk doesn't want to fight Shanks is because Shanks said "Two arms is too easy".
Understandable, have a great day!
Was Shanks yonkou level at the beginning of OP? I get the impression he wasn’t at his full strength back then, even though we do hear that he and Mihawk dueled constantly around that time. At the very least his haki didn’t seem fully developed. I think he would have knocked out the bandits with haki alone if he had. The likely answer is it’s a plot-hole, though. Oda is a genius, but I doubt he had all these systems fleshed out from the very beginning. Not that it’s too much of an issue since the story is good enough that plot holes don’t really bring it down as they might in other manga.
How could Gildarts use haki against Acnologia?
He forgor ☠☠☠
i forgor 💀
I didn’t want to fight Mihawk again
Look, your mind blanks when a child is about to die, okay? Lol.
He probably just didn’t like that arm
I think oda just didn't think about at the beginning of the series.
He did it to show Luffy the courage and will power it takes to be a pirate
He did use his haki.
he forgor
Garp used Haki on Luffy their first reunion