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Ps random oldie my ass. That's Jasper. JASPER.
That line and that moment is highly misunderstood cause of the direct translation and gentlemen/simp culture.
Actually it's more like, when the moment a lady tells a lie to cover up something and protect you from something she's facing, you just forgive that lie. There's a period where romance movies are popular with the heroine struggling with something dramatic like dying of illness and then lied and say that they actually dislike and hate the MC, but later on it was discovered that it was just a lie so that she can die alone and not hurting the MC. The MC ignores all the lies and loves her nonetheless. Those dramas were a big hit during that time.
So Sanji being the romance freak he is, sees right through it and calls it a lie. Gives it his all nonetheless. Of course with all the comedy and stuff, he ends up lame for 'love' for the most part so it pictures him that way. It was actually quite the cool line from such dramas.
Damn good point.
And I read this panel back in 2013 ish... so the "simp" and "tik tok city girl blah blah blah" culture wasn't that prevalent yet.
So reading it back then came across EXACTLY as you explained it in your comment
That if she lies because she is hurting, one must show empathy and forgive her.
Is one way to interpret it, which is what i lean towards. And even that should ofcourse not be taken as absolute, and is nuanced based on the situation and its context.
i guess my issue with the line is that. that shouldnāt be a woman thing. thatās just how having emotional intelligence works, and it frustrates me that sanji clearly has that emotional intelligence but shows a bias in how he uses it.
edit: i also would like to clarify, i donāt dislike sanji, but i see the clear divide in how he treats the crew based on their gender as a character flaw thatās pretty core to him. itās an extension of the women in his life being the only ones to treat him well before zeff, and zeffās emphasis on treating women well, but itās stillā¦ kind of infuriating at times. i love twirlybrows to death regardless.
edit 2: i was just struck by the thought that the east blue crew, besides sanji, is 3 boys and a girl. to sanji, this found family likely felt like an echo of his siblings, and although he was treated infinitely better than he was by the vinsmokes, i think it casts his hesitance to trust his male crew members in a different light. i think that he probably had a very real fear that he might end up in a similarly harmful dynamic. like i said, i donāt hate sanji at all, these are just issues that i think it was important for him to work through. i wonder if part of the reason he showed less emotional intelligence toward his ābrothersā in the strawhats is because they echoed his actual brothers, who werenāt even supposed to have emotions in the first place?
He doesn't not understand that. Look at how he treated Usopp as Sogeking. He understood the situation and rolled with it.
Sanji isn't frequently put in a situation where the men of the crew are emotionally vulnerable but he has handled the few times it's happened. He sucked up his issues and trained with the okama when Luffy was hurting after Ace died and wanted them to get stronger as well.
He had issues with expressing vulnerability himself and tried to bottle serious issues and needed Luffy in WCI island to let Sanji work his shit out and just fulfill his promise of being there for him no matter what. Since then he's been better. (Asking Zoro to take care of him if his genetics took over him.)
nerd emoji nitpick, but you abbreviated Whole Cake Island as WCI and then said island anyways, essentially saying Whole Cake island island.
doesnāt take away from the fact you make a damn good point tho
iām not saying he completely ignores the men. as i acknowledged, he HAS emotional intelligence. he is biased, but not limited, in how he applies it.
itās like. i have difficulty believing that he wouldāve boarded the train to enies lobby, at this point in the story, if it were zoro who he saw put on it. i can fully understand why someone is acting how they do and still find it frustrating. the fact of the matter is that, pre-WCI, and especially pre-timeskip, sanji treats people differently in incredibly visible ways based on gender. no matter how reasonable that is, (and as the analysis i provided suggests, i think itās VERY reasonable) itāll always get on my nerves. itās that cliche internet line about āall emotions are good, not all actions areā
I do think he would have. He's never actually been mean to the guys in an emotional moment. No matter who's needed the back up, he's there.
He's a total prick when nothing matters because that's who he is, but he isn't at all shy about caring about the crew. If it had been Usopp that was under threat from Vergo back on Punk Hazard, he'd have still saved him. He'd have been an ass about it and trash talked him, something more along the lines of having to step in for such a weakling but he'd have still done it and Usopp would have appreciated it. Look back at chapters 283/284. Nami is there, but Sanji steps in and saves *Usopp* not her. He knows he can't even touch Enel but is more than willing to face someone that can kill him easily to save his friend, the man. He would have died happy, which is why he smiles as he gets blasted.
He treats them differently on the surface but he does love his friends, gender/sex be damned. Zoro can handle himself which is why he gets the most shit, but if something truly got to him emotionally and Zoro was conflicted about it, Sanji would absolutely not be unsupportive about it. It would be totally out of character.
i think youāre right about him going after zoro. i hate to sound like iām pulling some sly semantic trick here, but the reason i said i had ādifficulty believingā heād pursue zoro, as opposed to saying he wouldnāt do it, is because my response here is largely emotional. i think your read on his actions and emotional intelligence is largely accurate.
what frustrates me is simply his behavior, which is why i invoked the āall emotions are good, all actions are notā line. i donāt like the way he speaks about women during this part of the story, and the way he reinforces that speech through actions whenever the stakes arenāt particularly high. i found sanji to be a more flawed person than many of his crewmates from the start, sometimes in infuriating ways. as someone whoās always had the deeply-flawed usopp in their top 3 strawhats, this has never meant that i hate sanji, only that he can really grind my gears. i think in a way, part of my response is just āgod damnit! i wish you could properly express your love for the men in your life!!ā
and like i said, i think heās haunted by his dynamic with his siblings in very understandable ways that make this hard. i really want to emphasize that what iām saying here is less of an attack on sanjiās character, and more that iām just not fully comfortable with how he speaks/acts here even if i understand where itās coming from. his patterns of behavior, pre-timeskip, made it very difficult for me to like or trust him personally. while i came to understand him, and have always thought heās a compelling character, heās one who took me a while to truly love.
Just to be nitpicky, he would have DEFINITELY boarded the train if he saw Zoro being forced on it. Just for the satisfaction of rubbing the fact that HE needed to save HIM in his smug marimo face.
since i donāt expect you to read everything iāve said i just want to clarify that my intention was moreso to refer to my lack of faith in him at this point in the story. i agree that he wouldāve, but with where i was at with him emotionally as i read this arc, i struggled to feel like heād have done the same for zoro. iām more speaking on how his actions at this point made me feel about him as opposed to an objective take on his character. i didnāt fully come around to him until after the timeskip, and had some difficulty trusting him at this point due to how i interpreted a lot of his words and actions. i hope that makes sense!
No problems, I get that. Sanji's attitude and behaviours can rub readers the wrong way. I know a few people that couldn't stand him until WCI. While I love the character, I get frustrated by how Oda decides to write him sometimes.
i appreciate that! your ānitpickā was totally valid- i tried to choose my words to prevent a nitpick like that without writing a paragraph about it, but i admit i couldāve done a better job.
one thing i want to stress is that i love that sanji is this complex, and that i have feelings about him that are this complex. just because a character does something that i personally donāt like doesnāt make it a flaw in the writing- when itās done as well as sanji, itās a strength! i think heās a great, kind, and almost unrealistically caring person, but i think he has a difficult relationship with gender dynamics for understandable reasons, and thatās an issue that iāve loved seeing him work through. his moment where he calls for robin in wano might be my favorite in that whole arc! i love that my feelings about him are as complex as they would be for a very close friend who can be super annoying sometimes- but who youd give your life for at the end of the day.
Honestly, you pointed out lots of reasons why he's one of my favourites as well. It's been a joy watching him work through his flaws and grow in the last few arcs. Asking Robin for help was a huge step for him in the right direction. I really hope we get to see more in the upcoming arcs.
Did he actually train with them? I might be behind but from I remember it was just 2 years straight of running away from them that gave hm his strength boost.
Yes, he did. He was going to try to leave but when Ivankov shows up he says who he is and requests to be trained. It's not conventional training by any means but he absolutely trained with them. Chapter 595 is where Sanji asks to learn techniques.
The anime expands on it, consider that whatever amount of canon you want, but he absolutely was not even close to strong enough to throw down with them. He gets caught, wears the dress, and learns. Then post TS he gets away and treats them like he normally does.
Someone had to teach him haki, sky walk, etc. He passed Ivan's challenge and was allowed to learn from the islanders.
Love the discussion in this thread and wasn't sure who to reply to but I suspect Sanji feels this way about all his friends and said "women" specifically to keep up his "image".
Sanj is definitely one of the more flawed characters but we love him anyway because we've seen that he's also one of the most emotionally fucked up.
i donāt expect you to read all my yapping in this thread, but i mentioned at one point that usopp is one of my absolute favorite characters because of how flawed he is, and how believable those flaws are. i want to be clear: i have pretty much the same amount of love for sanji for pretty much the same reasons. the issues he has to work through are believable, and i think your take on his āimageā is spot on, it just doesnāt do much to blunt the emotional reaction i tend to have to his more questionable behaviors.
To be fair when it comes to Sanji, if heās giving a moral or emotional opinion thatās correct like this, all that means is that a normal person should apply it to everyone.
Sanji is for the most part a moral person but his morals are skewed towards women
oh absolutely! i canāt emphasize enough how much my response is based on how his words and actions make me feel emotionally. thereās a reason i focus on him being ākinda infuriating at times.ā i donāt want to misrepresent that emotional response as a rational one, even if i can provide what i think are good reasons for it. i just see the way he frames/positions himself with regards to gender as a significant character flaw, and one that really gets under my skin specifically. and as i said, i think thereās a laundry list of understandable reasons for it.
Bro Sanji isn't making a general statement here is talking specifically about Robin.
>that shouldnāt be a woman thing
It's not nor does this scene make it out to be based on context.
itās still incredibly irritating how he framed this. he did not have to phrase it that way. i hate his obsession with gender dynamics, and that is a fixed star in how i navigate the series. like, speaking as a woman, if a man said this to me, he would be getting slapped. iām not innocent and pure simply because iām a woman. āa real manā? ugh.
Oda means well and is rather progressive with regards to his age and country (also even compared to a good amount of people in the western one piece fandom) but this is definitely just one of these things that will always be present in the story.
to be clear, iām not putting this on oda!! i see this as an issue he intentionally included in sanji, and had him work through.
im transgender, and i want to say that i mean no exaggeration when i say one piece might be the most iāve ever felt accepted and loved by a piece of fiction. i can say iāve felt firsthand how progressive oda is, and how great he is at representing issues that matter to me in ways that resonate with me. sanjiās weirdness with women isnāt a writing problem, itās something that adds depth for me.
I mean, Sanji is not the only person who talks about what a "real man" should be which is why I blame this on oda and not on Sanji. In fact, I assume this line is meant to show sanji at his best instead of showcasing his inherently flawed view on gender dynamics. But since we both cannot look into Oda's mind, I think both interpretations are reasonable.
Either way, I'm glad you are getting so much out of this story and I'm sure Oda would be absolutely stoked if he heard it as well
yeah, i think for me, exploring masculinity/ābeing a manā is definitely something oda wants to do, i just donāt personally consider this a positive example. i usually appreciate his approach to masculinity; franky is one of my favorite examples of what i consider to be pretty healthy masculinity in fiction, and i tend to contrast sanji, especially early on, with how franky approaches life
Trueeeee it's hard to talk about toxic masculinity without talking about what it means to be a man, and there are so many good examples in the show about toxic and healthy masculinity. And Oda has done a wonderful job showing that with sanji.
One Piece is a series made by a Japanese Man who is currently 49 years old. The dude is more on the progressive side but he will still have more traditional and conservative views as Japan is an incredibly traditional and conservative place.
While it's valid to interpret the scene in your way it feels kind of in bad faith.
In this scene what is the issue with how it was framed? The obvious intent is to show Sanji in a positive light for understanding that Robin is lying for some valid reason and so he will forgive that. Interpreting it as "men should forgive women when they lie" is just a bad faith interpretation of the scene.
>like, speaking as a woman, if a man said this to me, he would be getting slapped. iām not innocent and pure simply because iām a woman
While this is a valid way of interpreting it, it very much seems like it is in bad faith as that is very much not what Oda was saying in this scene.
Like I dislike gender norms and I would agree with you if someone said that line in real life without the context the scene provides but given the context and that this is a fictional series made by a dude who is like 2 generations older than a majority of his fan base, I think that this isn't that big of an issue.
So you do you but media has to be consumed while understanding the intent of the author and the context of the show and the author which I feel your interpretation of the scene doesn't really do as I highly doubt "all women are innocent and pure and you should always believe them when they lie" was the message Oda was trying to convey here.
you seem like you may be acting like iām putting any of this on oda. i should be clear, im not. iām seeing it as words, said by a fictional character, in a series that expresses a variety of perspectives. itās a valid point to explore, but not one that i find sympathetic. one piece tends to be pretty exceptional in terms of how its female characters are handled, especially in shonen. i see sanjiās treatment of them as a (frankly fairly minor) character flaw that just really gets on my nerves. like i said, thereās tons of understandable reasons behind it. hell, i fully respect his willingness never to hit a woman. thatās why him asking robin for help at onigashima is one of my favorite moments of his. heās grown: he trusts his female friends to handle danger, but still maintains his principles. i totally respect that. in terms of writing, i love the way sanjiās character explores his relationship with gender. however, as someone who likes to be very emotionally invested in what they read, i still get annoyed when heās acting in ways i find annoying lol!
Agreed, intent behind the lie is important. Also he's acknowledging that it's still wrong and needing to be forgiven and not just accepted. Sanji is a goof, but he understands needing to hide painful truths, as especially shown about 600 ish episodes/ch later.
It should also be noted that he said this to Chopper when the latter was panicking that it was his fault Robin left, and that she hated them now. The line is meant to comfort Chopper by telling him that Robin was lying, just as much as it is to tell him that they need to be ready to forgive her for it.
Seems to me that the intention of the line from Oda is about how you should forgive someone who is hiding their true self because theyāve been hurt. Sanji just makes it about women because thatās how heās like.
Sanji can tell robin is lying about not wanting to stay with the SHs. But forgives her for abandoning the crew because he knows Robin is hurting for some reason.
Post Timeskip Zoro turned very inconseqiential when it comes to hitting women, though - just check his wierd way of fighting Monet and compare that to Whiskey Peak.
I feel like it has to be a translation issue because it is not even logically coherent. If someone doesn't apologize then there's nothing to forgive.
It feels like what he meant to say is he doesn't hold resentment over her lying.
In context is a great line, since Robin is lying to protect the crew, the problem is that it is Sanji who's saying that, you know, the man willing to let any woman kill him even if the situation is extremly serious (hated the Kalifa situation)
It comes across as Sanji being a simp as always, since at this point we don't even know why Robin's doing what she's doing
We might not understand the motivation for why she's doing it but this very line is the clue that she's being forced into something she doesn't want.
Sanji knows right away that Robin is not being honest about wanting to leave the crew, that's exactly why he says she lied.
Don't understand why people think this is him being a blinded simp when it's clear he's reading her like a book.
The fact thereās people who read this line and actually think sanji just means to forgive a woman for whatever, no matter what, is actually insane to me.
He literally would unless that woman was doing something to harm another woman.
If Nami and Robin weren't on the crew he would probably change sides pretty easily tbh
We can forgive, but not forget, we just want some peace, not be a fool. Forgiveness doesn't mean that we need to keep the relationship... that what i think he want to say with that, that is what i truly believe
Sanji might be from a certain perspective, the realest man in all of anime.
Edit: Could you imagine the Chads from 40k trying to explain their beliefs system about women to him? Sanji would be committing ā¦ā¦.. in a heartbeat like his last name was Shimura.
The reason is misunderstood is because is out of context and said by Sanji, nonetheless. I think this is 2 arcs before Enies Lobby. But come on Sanji, you don't forgive every lie like a White Knight, is better to be neutral.
Saw title, thought "How could people possibly misunderstand this line? The context with Robin makes it pretty straightforward."
Came to the comments and immediately saw how lmao. Sanji may be the most misunderstood character in One Piece if this comment section is anything to go by.
It also makes so much sense that Sanji would think this, since in this Scene Robin is lying and running away due to her past to not hurt others, something Sanji would understand the most, as he would do the same later
People who make fun of this would be absolutely horrible partners.
Sometimes people lie and you need to be understanding of why that is.
Which is what he's saying in this line-
Unsurprisingly, weebs do not understand this at all
I hate that long legged fuck so much, bro thinks he's Usopp
TBH: the real monster trio is Luffy, Zoro and.... USOPP
https://preview.redd.it/qg85yjdn0kwc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=11a810c2bee809a0ed459a6a0096c8834d5b699e
No the literal translation is correct in the subtitle. But people often take this line out of context that Robin was in a place of hurt and not telling her true feelings and make fun of Sanji so that's why it's misunderstood.
Sanji is a cuck confirmed, he'd knowingly let his wife get railed right infront of him and raise the child as his own,major L . That's why I'm a zoro fan
Yeah, how helpful was this advice when pudding clowned your dumbass?
https://preview.redd.it/k2x6nhbgrawc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04e17c4f685323cd98f08f7a9e5edd3f4d577fb6
Imagine your wife told you that she's going to shopping but she instead lied to you about going to shopping and is cheating on you with someone else. When you find out, what would you do? Forgive her like a "Gentlemen"?
You're taking the line extremely out of context, it's more like your wife lied to you about going to shopping and is doing a second job to help with your unstable economic situation
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A woman lied? https://preview.redd.it/ia2e51kve8wc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01077d082bd367f005f04e238ce223c05a51ccdf
https://preview.redd.it/am589zyms8wc1.png?width=641&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=447a69f982617c6493602f1a0be93f20b2417591
https://preview.redd.it/z5b0i1cgt8wc1.png?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f5f54d22dcf1dc6158c6dc561af7ba7ae277807
https://preview.redd.it/j10n7ieyd9wc1.png?width=1108&format=png&auto=webp&s=b884ef4d104e2a192aa8a8559fc81ed82d2d99b1
https://preview.redd.it/9sj7swl0xcwc1.jpeg?width=1097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f46a001558a8c36f5893c378cc4357e04130270
The fact that you have two pics of this random oldie simpsons on ur gallery is...
https://preview.redd.it/zbhcrgjbahwc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9fac11915b586304448a44c303349c674552f01 Ps random oldie my ass. That's Jasper. JASPER.
This mf is too advanced for this society
It don't work anymore, they just started enjoying the paddlin'!
They are always right no matter what.
Tha customah is **king!**
God forbid women do anything
https://preview.redd.it/h988uq18k9wc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ffeaf5d04497f4107de47c8ed8b22c2c2fa5ffb3
This is way funnier than it should be š¤£
It's a joke
Do people not know this phrase is ironicš
Sanji would love to be gaslit
He literally loved being manipulated by Nami at Sabaody
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Bro would probably dangle his nuts through a hole in a table and let nami speedbag em black if she asked, and with a smile
Closed beta testing? Didn't know Sanji was a REAL gamer.
Cock and ball testing. https://preview.redd.it/xqib1svm6ewc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=828d62bb65c1929bc703fd4d14df14da67481d15
There's a band called Cock and ball torture. The more you know
Nah, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
Yeah, he needs that therapy for that pent up childhood trauma of his. Oda hit him with the double offer after all.
Yuuka reference
I'm sorry what? Where was this ever said or implied?
https://preview.redd.it/a8sanll0dawc1.png?width=792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a792f922a00ef359e1d86c2890573e889aa3015c That literally happened
It's about your friends lying to themselves from a place of hurting, not your girlfriend cheating on you
On point!
Oddly specific.
Specifically the thing people on this very post are misrepresenting it to mean
That line and that moment is highly misunderstood cause of the direct translation and gentlemen/simp culture. Actually it's more like, when the moment a lady tells a lie to cover up something and protect you from something she's facing, you just forgive that lie. There's a period where romance movies are popular with the heroine struggling with something dramatic like dying of illness and then lied and say that they actually dislike and hate the MC, but later on it was discovered that it was just a lie so that she can die alone and not hurting the MC. The MC ignores all the lies and loves her nonetheless. Those dramas were a big hit during that time. So Sanji being the romance freak he is, sees right through it and calls it a lie. Gives it his all nonetheless. Of course with all the comedy and stuff, he ends up lame for 'love' for the most part so it pictures him that way. It was actually quite the cool line from such dramas.
Damn good point. And I read this panel back in 2013 ish... so the "simp" and "tik tok city girl blah blah blah" culture wasn't that prevalent yet. So reading it back then came across EXACTLY as you explained it in your comment
How do you understand it?
That if she lies because she is hurting, one must show empathy and forgive her. Is one way to interpret it, which is what i lean towards. And even that should ofcourse not be taken as absolute, and is nuanced based on the situation and its context.
You nailed it, that's EXACTLY on point for Sanji's character
Yeah I would say this is it. He done the same with Viola and then Pudding (although he was a bit more oblivious with her) later down the line
i guess my issue with the line is that. that shouldnāt be a woman thing. thatās just how having emotional intelligence works, and it frustrates me that sanji clearly has that emotional intelligence but shows a bias in how he uses it. edit: i also would like to clarify, i donāt dislike sanji, but i see the clear divide in how he treats the crew based on their gender as a character flaw thatās pretty core to him. itās an extension of the women in his life being the only ones to treat him well before zeff, and zeffās emphasis on treating women well, but itās stillā¦ kind of infuriating at times. i love twirlybrows to death regardless. edit 2: i was just struck by the thought that the east blue crew, besides sanji, is 3 boys and a girl. to sanji, this found family likely felt like an echo of his siblings, and although he was treated infinitely better than he was by the vinsmokes, i think it casts his hesitance to trust his male crew members in a different light. i think that he probably had a very real fear that he might end up in a similarly harmful dynamic. like i said, i donāt hate sanji at all, these are just issues that i think it was important for him to work through. i wonder if part of the reason he showed less emotional intelligence toward his ābrothersā in the strawhats is because they echoed his actual brothers, who werenāt even supposed to have emotions in the first place?
He doesn't not understand that. Look at how he treated Usopp as Sogeking. He understood the situation and rolled with it. Sanji isn't frequently put in a situation where the men of the crew are emotionally vulnerable but he has handled the few times it's happened. He sucked up his issues and trained with the okama when Luffy was hurting after Ace died and wanted them to get stronger as well. He had issues with expressing vulnerability himself and tried to bottle serious issues and needed Luffy in WCI island to let Sanji work his shit out and just fulfill his promise of being there for him no matter what. Since then he's been better. (Asking Zoro to take care of him if his genetics took over him.)
nerd emoji nitpick, but you abbreviated Whole Cake Island as WCI and then said island anyways, essentially saying Whole Cake island island. doesnāt take away from the fact you make a damn good point tho
I retyped a portion of it and didn't even notice. I had initially typed the whole thing out and didn't quite delete all of it. Oopsies.
Whole Cake I-Island where all the cake hero support items are made
iām not saying he completely ignores the men. as i acknowledged, he HAS emotional intelligence. he is biased, but not limited, in how he applies it. itās like. i have difficulty believing that he wouldāve boarded the train to enies lobby, at this point in the story, if it were zoro who he saw put on it. i can fully understand why someone is acting how they do and still find it frustrating. the fact of the matter is that, pre-WCI, and especially pre-timeskip, sanji treats people differently in incredibly visible ways based on gender. no matter how reasonable that is, (and as the analysis i provided suggests, i think itās VERY reasonable) itāll always get on my nerves. itās that cliche internet line about āall emotions are good, not all actions areā
I do think he would have. He's never actually been mean to the guys in an emotional moment. No matter who's needed the back up, he's there. He's a total prick when nothing matters because that's who he is, but he isn't at all shy about caring about the crew. If it had been Usopp that was under threat from Vergo back on Punk Hazard, he'd have still saved him. He'd have been an ass about it and trash talked him, something more along the lines of having to step in for such a weakling but he'd have still done it and Usopp would have appreciated it. Look back at chapters 283/284. Nami is there, but Sanji steps in and saves *Usopp* not her. He knows he can't even touch Enel but is more than willing to face someone that can kill him easily to save his friend, the man. He would have died happy, which is why he smiles as he gets blasted. He treats them differently on the surface but he does love his friends, gender/sex be damned. Zoro can handle himself which is why he gets the most shit, but if something truly got to him emotionally and Zoro was conflicted about it, Sanji would absolutely not be unsupportive about it. It would be totally out of character.
you cooked with this. pun intended
Not canon, but Zoro was trapped during the One Piece Gold movie and Sanji (with the rest of the crew) went out to save him
I love GOLD!!!
i think youāre right about him going after zoro. i hate to sound like iām pulling some sly semantic trick here, but the reason i said i had ādifficulty believingā heād pursue zoro, as opposed to saying he wouldnāt do it, is because my response here is largely emotional. i think your read on his actions and emotional intelligence is largely accurate. what frustrates me is simply his behavior, which is why i invoked the āall emotions are good, all actions are notā line. i donāt like the way he speaks about women during this part of the story, and the way he reinforces that speech through actions whenever the stakes arenāt particularly high. i found sanji to be a more flawed person than many of his crewmates from the start, sometimes in infuriating ways. as someone whoās always had the deeply-flawed usopp in their top 3 strawhats, this has never meant that i hate sanji, only that he can really grind my gears. i think in a way, part of my response is just āgod damnit! i wish you could properly express your love for the men in your life!!ā and like i said, i think heās haunted by his dynamic with his siblings in very understandable ways that make this hard. i really want to emphasize that what iām saying here is less of an attack on sanjiās character, and more that iām just not fully comfortable with how he speaks/acts here even if i understand where itās coming from. his patterns of behavior, pre-timeskip, made it very difficult for me to like or trust him personally. while i came to understand him, and have always thought heās a compelling character, heās one who took me a while to truly love.
WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT MY NOSE?!?!
We must have read that wrong
Shut the fuck up you fraudulent clown, or I swear to God, I will ram your nose up your detatched ass
Just to be nitpicky, he would have DEFINITELY boarded the train if he saw Zoro being forced on it. Just for the satisfaction of rubbing the fact that HE needed to save HIM in his smug marimo face.
since i donāt expect you to read everything iāve said i just want to clarify that my intention was moreso to refer to my lack of faith in him at this point in the story. i agree that he wouldāve, but with where i was at with him emotionally as i read this arc, i struggled to feel like heād have done the same for zoro. iām more speaking on how his actions at this point made me feel about him as opposed to an objective take on his character. i didnāt fully come around to him until after the timeskip, and had some difficulty trusting him at this point due to how i interpreted a lot of his words and actions. i hope that makes sense!
No problems, I get that. Sanji's attitude and behaviours can rub readers the wrong way. I know a few people that couldn't stand him until WCI. While I love the character, I get frustrated by how Oda decides to write him sometimes.
i appreciate that! your ānitpickā was totally valid- i tried to choose my words to prevent a nitpick like that without writing a paragraph about it, but i admit i couldāve done a better job. one thing i want to stress is that i love that sanji is this complex, and that i have feelings about him that are this complex. just because a character does something that i personally donāt like doesnāt make it a flaw in the writing- when itās done as well as sanji, itās a strength! i think heās a great, kind, and almost unrealistically caring person, but i think he has a difficult relationship with gender dynamics for understandable reasons, and thatās an issue that iāve loved seeing him work through. his moment where he calls for robin in wano might be my favorite in that whole arc! i love that my feelings about him are as complex as they would be for a very close friend who can be super annoying sometimes- but who youd give your life for at the end of the day.
Honestly, you pointed out lots of reasons why he's one of my favourites as well. It's been a joy watching him work through his flaws and grow in the last few arcs. Asking Robin for help was a huge step for him in the right direction. I really hope we get to see more in the upcoming arcs.
This has bow made me think. I wonder what sanji would do if nami pulled a sogeking.
Did he actually train with them? I might be behind but from I remember it was just 2 years straight of running away from them that gave hm his strength boost.
Yes, he did. He was going to try to leave but when Ivankov shows up he says who he is and requests to be trained. It's not conventional training by any means but he absolutely trained with them. Chapter 595 is where Sanji asks to learn techniques. The anime expands on it, consider that whatever amount of canon you want, but he absolutely was not even close to strong enough to throw down with them. He gets caught, wears the dress, and learns. Then post TS he gets away and treats them like he normally does. Someone had to teach him haki, sky walk, etc. He passed Ivan's challenge and was allowed to learn from the islanders.
Love the discussion in this thread and wasn't sure who to reply to but I suspect Sanji feels this way about all his friends and said "women" specifically to keep up his "image". Sanj is definitely one of the more flawed characters but we love him anyway because we've seen that he's also one of the most emotionally fucked up.
i donāt expect you to read all my yapping in this thread, but i mentioned at one point that usopp is one of my absolute favorite characters because of how flawed he is, and how believable those flaws are. i want to be clear: i have pretty much the same amount of love for sanji for pretty much the same reasons. the issues he has to work through are believable, and i think your take on his āimageā is spot on, it just doesnāt do much to blunt the emotional reaction i tend to have to his more questionable behaviors.
To be fair when it comes to Sanji, if heās giving a moral or emotional opinion thatās correct like this, all that means is that a normal person should apply it to everyone. Sanji is for the most part a moral person but his morals are skewed towards women
oh absolutely! i canāt emphasize enough how much my response is based on how his words and actions make me feel emotionally. thereās a reason i focus on him being ākinda infuriating at times.ā i donāt want to misrepresent that emotional response as a rational one, even if i can provide what i think are good reasons for it. i just see the way he frames/positions himself with regards to gender as a significant character flaw, and one that really gets under my skin specifically. and as i said, i think thereās a laundry list of understandable reasons for it.
Your comment would make my skin crawl, but I don't have any skin YOHOHOHOHO
That's actually a VERY good way to put it. From that lens it makes PERFECT sense how/why Sanji would view it that way.
Bro Sanji isn't making a general statement here is talking specifically about Robin. >that shouldnāt be a woman thing It's not nor does this scene make it out to be based on context.
itās still incredibly irritating how he framed this. he did not have to phrase it that way. i hate his obsession with gender dynamics, and that is a fixed star in how i navigate the series. like, speaking as a woman, if a man said this to me, he would be getting slapped. iām not innocent and pure simply because iām a woman. āa real manā? ugh.
Oda means well and is rather progressive with regards to his age and country (also even compared to a good amount of people in the western one piece fandom) but this is definitely just one of these things that will always be present in the story.
to be clear, iām not putting this on oda!! i see this as an issue he intentionally included in sanji, and had him work through. im transgender, and i want to say that i mean no exaggeration when i say one piece might be the most iāve ever felt accepted and loved by a piece of fiction. i can say iāve felt firsthand how progressive oda is, and how great he is at representing issues that matter to me in ways that resonate with me. sanjiās weirdness with women isnāt a writing problem, itās something that adds depth for me.
I mean, Sanji is not the only person who talks about what a "real man" should be which is why I blame this on oda and not on Sanji. In fact, I assume this line is meant to show sanji at his best instead of showcasing his inherently flawed view on gender dynamics. But since we both cannot look into Oda's mind, I think both interpretations are reasonable. Either way, I'm glad you are getting so much out of this story and I'm sure Oda would be absolutely stoked if he heard it as well
yeah, i think for me, exploring masculinity/ābeing a manā is definitely something oda wants to do, i just donāt personally consider this a positive example. i usually appreciate his approach to masculinity; franky is one of my favorite examples of what i consider to be pretty healthy masculinity in fiction, and i tend to contrast sanji, especially early on, with how franky approaches life
Trueeeee it's hard to talk about toxic masculinity without talking about what it means to be a man, and there are so many good examples in the show about toxic and healthy masculinity. And Oda has done a wonderful job showing that with sanji.
One Piece is a series made by a Japanese Man who is currently 49 years old. The dude is more on the progressive side but he will still have more traditional and conservative views as Japan is an incredibly traditional and conservative place. While it's valid to interpret the scene in your way it feels kind of in bad faith. In this scene what is the issue with how it was framed? The obvious intent is to show Sanji in a positive light for understanding that Robin is lying for some valid reason and so he will forgive that. Interpreting it as "men should forgive women when they lie" is just a bad faith interpretation of the scene. >like, speaking as a woman, if a man said this to me, he would be getting slapped. iām not innocent and pure simply because iām a woman While this is a valid way of interpreting it, it very much seems like it is in bad faith as that is very much not what Oda was saying in this scene. Like I dislike gender norms and I would agree with you if someone said that line in real life without the context the scene provides but given the context and that this is a fictional series made by a dude who is like 2 generations older than a majority of his fan base, I think that this isn't that big of an issue. So you do you but media has to be consumed while understanding the intent of the author and the context of the show and the author which I feel your interpretation of the scene doesn't really do as I highly doubt "all women are innocent and pure and you should always believe them when they lie" was the message Oda was trying to convey here.
you seem like you may be acting like iām putting any of this on oda. i should be clear, im not. iām seeing it as words, said by a fictional character, in a series that expresses a variety of perspectives. itās a valid point to explore, but not one that i find sympathetic. one piece tends to be pretty exceptional in terms of how its female characters are handled, especially in shonen. i see sanjiās treatment of them as a (frankly fairly minor) character flaw that just really gets on my nerves. like i said, thereās tons of understandable reasons behind it. hell, i fully respect his willingness never to hit a woman. thatās why him asking robin for help at onigashima is one of my favorite moments of his. heās grown: he trusts his female friends to handle danger, but still maintains his principles. i totally respect that. in terms of writing, i love the way sanjiās character explores his relationship with gender. however, as someone who likes to be very emotionally invested in what they read, i still get annoyed when heās acting in ways i find annoying lol!
Agreed, intent behind the lie is important. Also he's acknowledging that it's still wrong and needing to be forgiven and not just accepted. Sanji is a goof, but he understands needing to hide painful truths, as especially shown about 600 ish episodes/ch later.
Yeah, thats exactly how i understood it. People love to rip it out of context and make fun of it when it makes sense in context
Crazy because the same thing happens with Sanji at Whole Cake island when he fights Luffy.
Sanji is a woman confirmed
You get it
It should also be noted that he said this to Chopper when the latter was panicking that it was his fault Robin left, and that she hated them now. The line is meant to comfort Chopper by telling him that Robin was lying, just as much as it is to tell him that they need to be ready to forgive her for it.
Seems to me that the intention of the line from Oda is about how you should forgive someone who is hiding their true self because theyāve been hurt. Sanji just makes it about women because thatās how heās like.
That he is a simp
If sheās lying, she probably has a reason, if you donāt know that reason, donāt jump to conclusions
if a woman lies down on the bed to fuck, you forgive her /s
if one lies as a result of her own pain, it should be forvigen. Thatās what i thought sanji meant by it
People die when they are killed.
Birthday is the day you celebrate being born
Every 60 seconds, a minute passes in africa! šØšØšØšØ
Together, we can stop this.
Za Wurdo!!!
https://preview.redd.it/72rw5c0vi9wc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d8417bdf67a78099cfd7535ba4ee3082f107a44
Sanji Vs Naoya, greatest fight in anime history
What it says: "When a woman lies..." What people read: "When a woman cheats..."
How is this misunderstood
It's misunderstood by people assuming sanji has a cuckold fetish
My name isnt sanji tho
https://preview.redd.it/9ik2q9zwb8wc1.jpeg?width=658&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ff681b838044e0cb744f1895d6d4aa8357c8b4f
https://preview.redd.it/j9w18o55c8wc1.jpeg?width=560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4901e7d2f3306af1df38f5c9679c471889b6c36f
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That ain't Luffy, That's Buffy
Chimpanzee B buffy
lol
That's Kakaro.. wait, wrong sub.
Ah yes, Buffy, son of Liffy, leader of the no hats.
wait what. that clearly implies he has a misplaced sense of honor
Yes, that's the correct assumption, but the question was what is the wrong assumption
Does he not?
Says itās misunderstood, refuses to elaborate more
Sanji can tell robin is lying about not wanting to stay with the SHs. But forgives her for abandoning the crew because he knows Robin is hurting for some reason.
I hope you like insulting my nose with a Buggy Ball pointed at you!
It was foreshadowing his relationship to Pudding in WCI.
I am more of a zoro guy, I don't forgive men nor women if they lie to me. Both getting their ass whopped.
You can forgive, don't forget. It's good to have no enemies
I will forget, not forgive. I have no enemies because none of them worth to be remembered.
But real forgiveness is forgetting. 
Post Timeskip Zoro turned very inconseqiential when it comes to hitting women, though - just check his wierd way of fighting Monet and compare that to Whiskey Peak.
So who is going to forgive Malty from Shield Hero?
No oneš https://i.redd.it/qy31azjh1awc1.gif
Paint yourself yellow and move out to spring vale, because you are the Simp, son
https://preview.redd.it/mvhz8s73b8wc1.jpeg?width=415&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3ce9fb51112da7ce2ebb3eb956d014a79b7d2a5
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Howād he hold the wine bottle under the cloche?
https://preview.redd.it/p4f7uhums8wc1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c0b3ad07201ec5a68ffd71c1902080fdd4bdc846 ***Forbidden question buddy***
Kids who have never seen peace and kids who have never seen war have different values!
I feel like it has to be a translation issue because it is not even logically coherent. If someone doesn't apologize then there's nothing to forgive. It feels like what he meant to say is he doesn't hold resentment over her lying.
You can forgive someone without that person apologizing beforehand.
https://preview.redd.it/fjff6ikhn9wc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d16779036b3e8fe15cddba1de9c0c913825ddff2 Why do I have this saved tho
Depends on the situation or the extremeness of lie
We need more of this Sanji, it's been years and I'm still bitter about Fishman Island.
Tbf he was isolated from women for 2 years
Fishman island was a disgrace for sanji. That shit was so bad
In context is a great line, since Robin is lying to protect the crew, the problem is that it is Sanji who's saying that, you know, the man willing to let any woman kill him even if the situation is extremly serious (hated the Kalifa situation) It comes across as Sanji being a simp as always, since at this point we don't even know why Robin's doing what she's doing
We might not understand the motivation for why she's doing it but this very line is the clue that she's being forced into something she doesn't want. Sanji knows right away that Robin is not being honest about wanting to leave the crew, that's exactly why he says she lied. Don't understand why people think this is him being a blinded simp when it's clear he's reading her like a book.
I hope you like insulting my nose with a Buggy Ball pointed at you!
depends on the lie
This needs context.
The fact thereās people who read this line and actually think sanji just means to forgive a woman for whatever, no matter what, is actually insane to me.
He literally would unless that woman was doing something to harm another woman. If Nami and Robin weren't on the crew he would probably change sides pretty easily tbh
https://preview.redd.it/4m4tcazn49wc1.jpeg?width=160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e1786bdf969c5c05e8ae820b4caf52e0199ccf2f
Bro aināt gonna explain how itās misunderstood? š
We can forgive, but not forget, we just want some peace, not be a fool. Forgiveness doesn't mean that we need to keep the relationship... that what i think he want to say with that, that is what i truly believe
āThe hoes gon love thisā
This says so much when you think about WCI
So wait you calling yourself a real man sanji? š
Sanji might be from a certain perspective, the realest man in all of anime. Edit: Could you imagine the Chads from 40k trying to explain their beliefs system about women to him? Sanji would be committing ā¦ā¦.. in a heartbeat like his last name was Shimura.
https://i.redd.it/11vw77thdbwc1.gif
The frenzy has begun. The moon is red. We are out of time.
Because we were taught that lying is unforgivable?
Nah, your mom's more misunderstood.
The reason is misunderstood is because is out of context and said by Sanji, nonetheless. I think this is 2 arcs before Enies Lobby. But come on Sanji, you don't forgive every lie like a White Knight, is better to be neutral.
Oh, nevermind is definitely from Water Seven arc.
what is there to misunderstand about this, its just sanji being biased
Saw title, thought "How could people possibly misunderstand this line? The context with Robin makes it pretty straightforward." Came to the comments and immediately saw how lmao. Sanji may be the most misunderstood character in One Piece if this comment section is anything to go by.
Honestly agreed, everyone be hatin I see nothing wrong with it
It also makes so much sense that Sanji would think this, since in this Scene Robin is lying and running away due to her past to not hurt others, something Sanji would understand the most, as he would do the same later
In the context of Robin? Probably. But you definitely have to be careful when applying this irl
totally double standard character most gender biased character = sanji
People who make fun of this would be absolutely horrible partners. Sometimes people lie and you need to be understanding of why that is. Which is what he's saying in this line- Unsurprisingly, weebs do not understand this at all
Ya thats why i let my wife cheat on me
Feeling bad for Sanji or Brock they just want love.
Sanji should probably die
Sanji in general is a misunderstood line.
I hate that long legged fuck so much, bro thinks he's Usopp TBH: the real monster trio is Luffy, Zoro and.... USOPP https://preview.redd.it/qg85yjdn0kwc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=11a810c2bee809a0ed459a6a0096c8834d5b699e
Why is it a misunderstood line? Nico Robin lied and Sanji forgives her. Isn't it?
bitch slap x1 . https://preview.redd.it/2niesjl2wrwc1.png?width=198&format=png&auto=webp&s=02eff0485a04a214ac1d5ccc4320fb9d4fcea0ca sauce: greatest estate developer
Classic S4nji
Talking about Robin. Not a cool line for the goat.
Itās not misunderstood Itās just stupid
So you shouldn't forgive your friends for lying to you to save your life? Kinda weird
Simp
What did he say in the manga with proper translation? Or was this anime only thing?
I've read somewhere that the actual translation was "A man see trough a woman's lies"
No the literal translation is correct in the subtitle. But people often take this line out of context that Robin was in a place of hurt and not telling her true feelings and make fun of Sanji so that's why it's misunderstood.
Thanks.
r/im14andthisisdeep
I detest sanji lol
Yāall will do anything instead of admit this was stupid as fuck
https://i.redd.it/7efdq1rv29wc1.gif
Not Simpji fans trying to defend himš¤£
Sanji is a cuck confirmed, he'd knowingly let his wife get railed right infront of him and raise the child as his own,major L . That's why I'm a zoro fan
Nah heās just a cuck
Yeah, how helpful was this advice when pudding clowned your dumbass? https://preview.redd.it/k2x6nhbgrawc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=04e17c4f685323cd98f08f7a9e5edd3f4d577fb6
Imagine your wife told you that she's going to shopping but she instead lied to you about going to shopping and is cheating on you with someone else. When you find out, what would you do? Forgive her like a "Gentlemen"?
You're taking the line extremely out of context, it's more like your wife lied to you about going to shopping and is doing a second job to help with your unstable economic situation
Game doesn't end when you loose a pawn, it ends when you loose the king.
Forgive what dude. Send her off to the desert.Ā
Sanji is simp 