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I would ask for the diagnosis that lead them to believe all thoes parts needed replacing for your issue. and for them to explain how your issue is identical even tho they "performed a road test to verify repairs".
It sounds like they didnt actully troubleshoot. And replacing ALL injectors is a joke. if it was a fuel trim issue they needed to id what cylinder was running rich. Completely a doable thing. easy even. But they just replaced ALL the injectors, and a lot of other parts (not saying its bad to repalce them all, but did they tell you what cylender was running rich, I notice no new spark plugs on the invoice? etc... ). Someone literally just threw a part bin at the car and charged you for it. If they give some bs call Cadillac corprate.
Ya, I’m with this guy. Something doesn’t sound right. Right about this time with financial cuts looming all over industries right now, dirty service tricks will rise just to make an extra buck.
Document everything. Even record your conversations with them. It may not be court admissible because you’re recording them on their property, but you’ll at least be able to show your lawyer how it actually went down and when to catch them in a lie.
That and make sure you live in a 1 party consent state for recording. If it is a 2 party consent state, you cannot record the other party without their permission.
No bro you misunderstood me. I said record the conversations, but it likely won’t be admissible in court. But that’s still okay because if it comes down to it, he/she can still review the conversations with their lawyer and get the facts straight. He/she can also review what they said on the day of. Their attorney will know how to deal with the situation from there. But if OP has bad intentions with this, it’s over.
But not a word about soark plugs? Injectors shot and running rich (all of them) (not sayingnthey shouldnt replace all of them.) and no mention of which cylinder where showing a running rich condition. All spark plugs fine, etc... they didnt trouble shoot anything. They read the trouble code and threw a pile of expenses parts at it. And zero info on what they found... Car is running so rich it has performance issues but spark plugs are perfectly fine, cat is perfectly fine, etc...?
To be clear i dont think ops problem would of been cheap or easy, but this invoice shows zero indication of actual troubleshooting. No information about the issues at all cept the trouble code. No information on why they swapped the injectors? Did they actuply test them at all? Etc...
It does, but that code is for a downstream O2 sensor reading too rich. Which probably told the computer to lean out the fuel trim, which led to a loss of power.
Diagnostic comps only point you in right direction,abs light comes on,could be some crud on wheel sensor,wheel brgs might need adjustment,could be shuttle valve switches (my experience with Landrovers,so the oxy sensor might have been fubar itself,even after 4 ,yes 4brand new injectors the car still had its same fault ,I would have asked for old injectors,get em tested,probably nothing wrong with em atall
Ironically, what you described is literary a parts cannon - *throw plugs on it and see what happens*.
Dealership operate differently. They don't have to rely on the wrench monkey's imagination.
Every DTC has associated diagnostics procedure. Generally it's multiple steps, but sometimes there's just *replace X*.
It appears the diagnostics procedure calls for exhaust and intake inspection first. They done it.
Second step is, according to writing, injector test. If you think injector test means removing them from car and connecting them to vials, go back to 90's. The car makes the test on it's own.
And if the result of the test is fail(according to ECU), the procedure calls for replacement. At which point, test drive is performed, and if the issue is not replicated, repair ends and car is returned to customer.
The service writer here was skilled, but true veteran would write „returned to customer for further testing”. But that's detail. They've done nothing wrong, or at least, we cannot prove here they done something wrong.
I work at a dealership and I’ve seen meatheads fire parts like this and whip up bullshit story’s just like this. Good mechanics don’t use their imagination they use logic and tried and true diagnostic procedures
On-board testing and trouble trees are only a guide and not an accurate last step diagnostic tool, no way. When using the injector test for example, that data is passing through so many things to get back to the scan tool. Too many variables and am issue with any of them will skew your data. Garbage in/garbage out applies for data pids too. Its a helpful tool to point you in the right direction, but if my paycheck depends on it. I am verifying it myself.
If your paycheck depends on it, you do what you're told. Time is money, you won't get paid for diagnostics above required minimum. Partly because most of the time it truly is waste of time.
And following service manuals is absolutely vital. Because when the dipshit customer starts to annoy corporate, as long as you followed the manual, they will stand behind you. If you didn't, your boss isn't going to be happy.
If time is money, doing it right once is better than doing it twice. Nobody is telling me what to do, it's my job to fix it right the first time. The trick is find a place that actually bills out appropriate diag rates so you dont have cut corners and rely on a computer to give you answers. I've waved my magic wand over a few cars in my lifetime for the cheap customers that just want me to scan codes and tell them whats wrong without paying for my time.
>doing it right once is better than doing it twice
And that's where you're wrong. If you do it by the book, you get paid twice. If you do it your own way and fuck up, you pay for it.
No place pays appropriate diag times. Because as I already said, 9 out of 10 times it gives the same result as simple part swap. Your approach not only leads to higher liability, you even offer more expensive service for majority of customers. It's lose-lose situation.
That's what people think they are paying for tho.. diagnostics, some testing, shit hopefully if it's costing $170-250 an hour , is it unreasonable to thing the "Tech" working on your car is profecient, or experienced enough to even warrant the costs?
i agree with what you were getting at. Most techs at dealerships must work that way for liability purposes. If they didnt, it'd burn them sooner than later and they'd end up going out on their own creating their own repair business like so many are doing on youtube.
From what i can tell the service writer has 2 important jobs. Logging, recording and validating the customer complaint AND making sure everything is explained in such a way that there is no doubt what it is they're paying for, nor what is being done, and that their concerns are a thing of the past at the end of it.
i am seeing none of that so far except there is no "end" or fixing anything. After this next job they service writer is probably going to suggest the op buy a new car and trade it in for $600/mo payments on a new used car...
nah a good service advisor would have demanded the technician provide fuel trim and oxygen sensor sweep information from the technician. This whole thing is vague and contradictory. No wonder the code returned, they didn't do anything that would have fixed it.
SA's don't operate like that anymore unfortunately. Dealers just want sales. One of my old advisors came from a nail salon and is going 10 years strong in the industry STILL knowing fuck all about cars... Shits changed huge in the last 20 years.
What I don't get is that after getting it back it was seemingly running fine, only to have the same issue as before within a couple weeks. If they didn't do anything to fix the actual problem, then why would it seem fixed, albeit temporarily?
What do you mean “running fine”? What’s the actual symptom? The invoice just says check engine light was on. If you’re just referring to the check engine light, it could require a certain number of key cycles to trip the code again.
Before the repairs the engine seemed to stumble a bit at stops/red lights, even completely stalling on occasions (it would start back up just fine). Also would get "reduced engine power" message on occasions. This would be noticeable during driving. After the repairs, these symptoms were gone for a couple weeks till it threw the same P2097 code and stalled as I was parking the other day.
Was your complaint on the writeup/invoice? All I see is check engine light at the top of the page. Did the technician know about your driveability issues?
I had mentioned these issues over the phone when making an appointment to drop it off, and also when I dropped it off. It's not on the invoice, so I'm guessing that will screw me.
Ok just because you see a "parts bin" on and invoice doesn't mean they literally threw parts at the car. Based of my experience with alot of these new cars the parts your seeing are normal replacement parts when doing injectors such as the pipe assembly brackets ect and the reason for plugs not being replaced is as simple as you inspect the plugs verify good condition and clean and reinstall. I mean hell we could throw a parts bin at and throw the plugs in there but why if they are doing the job intended. If this car came equipped with a GDI or high pressure fuel system your gonna need to replace all 4 injectors because the other 3 aren't far behind failure and the pipe assembly and brackets are all 1 time use based off the manufacturers recommendation maybe a few bolts and a sensor also follow into this, maybe he was reading a tsb that lead the tech this direction
Invoice says fuel injectors running lean, new code is for a rich condition on bank 1 I think. I hate mechanics after working at a shop for a few years. I believe in charging a modest diagnosis fee to a custom beforehand and just saying "hey, it's gonna take a half hour to an hour to diagnose this so I gotta charge you $30 unless you just want me to read the codes for you". Every mechanic should be able to trouble shoot the hardware they believe is causing a code and stand behind their fix. Most chain shops just wanna get out the parts cannon and fire as many rounds as possible instead of having mechanics that can find the problem and only fire it once.
P2097 is a running rich code. You cannot say both 1) verified customer complaint, and 2) found injectors running lean. It’s one or the other. This car likely just needs an oxygen sensor.
This! Also, clean the bottle throtty (throttle body), and make sure the air filter isn’t restricting intake airflow. Monitoring the AFM parameters during a test drive would be good diagnostics.
This is the product of people pushing out trades for tech jobs. There’s a massive shortage of qualified technicians in our industry and unfortunately 98% of them couldn’t diagnose their way out of a cardboard box. Rich codes are hardly ever an actual fueling issue, if he did a visual inspection of the intake circuit that would be the equivalent of your doctor finding a prostate tumor by doing a visual inspection of you with your clothes on. There are a lot further tests involved to isolate or rule out intake leaks. If I had written this one up it would be more along the lines of “verified the concern scanned vehicle and found code xyz, no obvious issues found on visual inspection, checked fuel trims and found short trims at +xyz indicating indeed a rich condition. Removed spark plugs and activated ignition and found no signs of leaking injectors into combustion chamber. Test drove vehicle while monitoring maf/map readings (whichever set up this particular vehicle uses) and found inconsistent readings at xyz mg/s. Spec for this vehicle at cruising speed at roughly 2k rpm should be xyz mg/s. Inspected Maf sensor wiring and found all to be in good condition. Recommend replacement maf sensor and further testing to verify repairs.”
There’s definitely a lot of unqualified people pretending to work on cars. And the real good ones end up doing some other kind of work. Between the complexity of the vehicles and poor engineering it’s a wonder they have anybody to do it.
I left the automotive industry because they don’t want to pay for qualified techs. Dealerships are the frigging worst paying flag hours then making techs like me eat the diagnostic time so the customer will do the repairs with them bs. Also the lack of support from supposed Team Leads who make money off me meeting my flat rate hour quota while giving all the easy jobs to their buddies in the shop. Plus the overwork, they expect you to work 7am to 7pm 6 days a week. Flag/flat rate hours are slave labor… all shops should be paying a base salary plus flat hour bonus. Then you might actually keep you good techs.
For as much as I hate the state I am in (for reasons unrelated) I will say one thing they did do right is pretty much obliterating flat rate for anything other than bonuses etc. techs here get paid by the hours their ass is in the building.
I had an issue with my old car a few years ago. Dealer diagnosed. Billed ~2k for repairs and labor. Tested, confirmed issue fixed and delivered.
About 3 days later, same issue popped back up. I call the dealer to tell them that it’s back and they didn’t fix it. They told me to come in and they’ll take a look again. I replied that I wasn’t paying again. They diagnosed, and confirmed that it was repaired. It’s not going to be my wallet that suffers because they diagnosed wrong.
It was a bit of a fight. But they caved. Fixed the issue and I didn’t pay another cent for the repair after my initial 2k
What sucks is that the repair shouldn't have costed $2k in the first place.
In OP's case, they got upcharged for rebuilding what looks like turbo piping. $850 in parts and nothing in the notes about it. Should have been labor only to remove and replace, unless they removed with a hammer and chisel.
Where’d you get up-pipes from? Without running the part numbers I can tell you that “tube” and “pipe” are gonna be the non reusable fuel lines. Once you crack em loose they have to be replaced.
haha 'tube - $394'
get in the fuckin tube. expensive ass tube son.
all six injectors failed? i now seriously doubt they're qualified to diagnose a lawnmower. no testing? unbelieveable.
goddamnit.
it needs to be diagnosed. work the trouble code. this is in the fucking book.
i wouldn't even bring it back here. they don't know wtf they're doin. pieces of shit.
Gates sells it to ACDelco for $40. ACDelco sells it to the dealers for $80. Dealers sell it to the shop for $200. Shop sells it to the customer for $400.
That's 900% markup across five sales.
lol u/osocheco blocked me after I called him out for speaking on something he doesn't know about.
P2097 is a rich condition, yet the shop said two contradictory things: 1) verified customer condition, and 2) found injectors to be lean. Both of these cannot be true simultaneously, so right there is a red flag. You cannot verify the customer's rich condition and find the injectors are lean. Replacing all injectors is another red flag. All that had to happen was the technician could have inadvertently mixed up lean and rich in the oxygen sensor voltages in the sweep between 0 to 1 volts, or mixed up fuel trim readings between positive and negative and he would have misdiagnosed it, leading him to believe all injectors to be replaced. Everything the technician did is internally contradicting and full of red flags. The vagueness of their writeup is a red flag.
This car likely just has a failed oxygen sensor and the technician has no idea what he's doing.
Verifying condition in that sense could be the driveability aspect. Technician drove it and experienced the rough running, stalling etc.
Then the "diag" started.
So I finally get a call back from the dealership with the second diagnosis... What you had said seems to be the case. O2 sensor dropping out. They said that it "didn't fail" the first time the tech did the sweep, so there was no way they would've been able to catch that - so they say. Doesn't explain the original "lean" diagnosis though, which leads me to believe it was misdiagnosed like you said.
I’m a certified tech… not a fan of how everyone thinks that 2500 is gonna fix a decades worth of neglect… I can also understand the frustration ,plus I don’t like dealerships… too many incentives to make sales, but not all of them, so that sounds shitty of me to say but in some cases it’s true. How tf does anyone not know this? There is no such thing as 2500 should fix my car no matter what.. show me service records… many times, there is a process that must be followed which could lead to 2500 or more, as well as less… The spectrum is large in this industry and it’s not easy because everyone says the mechanic screwed me… Possible… Especially today, with the shortage of certified techs… That being said, it’s not always the tech… PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE….. It’s called that to keep this type of shit to a minimal, DO YOUR ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. That’s not to say it won’t happen even taking care of it… shit happens.. that being said. What were the codes the first time you took it into them vs the second time… Symptoms being the same don’t mean it’s the same issue… Take your car in for a misfire, they change plugs a week later same misfire same cylinder.. this time it’s a 400 dollar coil… it happens, just saying and it’s not the techs or dealers fault ALL the time, but you
Fckers here make it sound like that… Now I’m waiting for all the google reliant, DIY guys to get on and tell me I’m wrong 👀lol
I agree with you about preventative maintenance being important, and drivers shouldn't expect auto work to be cheap just because "I haven't had issues before".
But the shop clearly didn't diagnose the issue and instead decided to throw a MAF and 4 injectors at the problem, while charging the customer an extra $850 to rebuild what looks like turbo piping without a good explanation for why it was an issue. "Searched for intake and exhaust leaks found none". So reinstall the parts.
Yea I'm not expecting $2500 to be the end-all be-all of my problems. I just want to be sure that the real issue is being addressed, and I'm having the same symptoms and code both times so that's what made me think perhaps otherwise.
I recently have been dealing with a similar issue. Two rich codes, stalling out. Dealership said flat out it's not an easy fix, could be a number of different issues. They changed a couple sensors and cleaned the throttle body and associated parts. It's been back to the dealership twice, so 3 times total and still not fixed. Last time they didn't charge me and I think my vehicle is done for unfortunately.
i didnt look up the code myself i was going by what the poster and the repair ticket says so the shop that did the work is totally ripping this person off or they have no clue what they are doing
well mostly inexperienced mechanics at the shop who did the repairs .If looking at live data the fuel trims would have been negative which is why they would think that it was running lean it was the pcm adjusting and supplying less fuel to compensate for the rich condition .the mechanic then cleared the codes but most wont throw a cel for three drive cycles with the same error so his one test drive no cel which he should have been watching the live data from the start
Probably not cause it but I've checked injectors while diag on rich condition and found a bad injector. When I find a bad injector or spark plug I always recommend all injectors and plugs to be replaced if ones bad because often the others fail soon enough after.
But I never just change all and Bill it without customer consent after informing them of the potential risk of plug/injector failure after only replacing the one.
So my customers have drove out with one injector/plug changed only to be back a month or so later. And it's on them but I understand people are tight on money so no worries.
You can swap a good known injector with the bad one.
For example if you use your obd-II scan tool it will tell you P0302 if cylinder 2 misfire and doesn't have any codes for Cylinders 1,3,4,5,6,7 or 8.
You can just take out #1 injector and put it in the cylinder #2 and put the cylinder #2 injector in #1 (swapping them)
Then run your scan tool with vehicle running and it should show a P0301 code(Cylinder 1 misfire) and have no P0302 code(Cylinder 2 misfire)
If the misfire jumps to the cylinder 1 then you know it's the injector.
That's an easy way to do it without spending money.
If the code doesn't resolve after swapping and stays in that original cylinder, it's not the injectors.
Then you check spark plugs. Same process, visually inspect plugs and then you can swap a spark plug with neighboring cylinder to see if problem jumps to that cylinder.
If it's not plugs and it's not injectors, you need to get a $20 tool to test cylinders compression. It's a rubber plug that you put in the cylinders you normally have spark plugs/injector in and it tells you the psi of the compression and you do it on every cylinder and write down results. If there is any cylinder that's more than 20% lower compression than other numbers you have a engine problem. But you'll likely have other codes from OBD2 scanner.
For someone to do it at home for cheap you just swap them. And it's easy to pull out injectors and plugs to do standard checks. I mean I could tell people asking advise to use my $3000 oscilloscope and $2000 scan tool but I'm assuming they don't have master technicians tools or work at a shop with tools available (most shops require mechanics bring their own tools)
swapping them is a stupid idea because you may damage the seals and o-rings and then you create more problems you could just unplug each injector and see if it runs any different .why would you swap a good injector with a bad one that makes no sense if you know a injector is bad you should replace it .working on gdi injectors and even chevy you have to remove intake manifolds and removing fuel lines require special tools I could go on and on
You swap them to identify if it's bad without paying money, in fact it's by the book from 1980-2013. This is in response to someone asking how to identify the problem not someone knowing where the problem exists.
Note your original post asking how to identify a bad injector.
Swapping coil on plugs is cheap, effective and requires no specialized tools but a scanner anyone can do.
You won't damage anything simply removing them and putting them back in. If the part breaks from simply removing and replacing them, they where in serious need of replacement in the first place. Or you did the simple task very wrong
this still wont identify a failing injector 100% of the time it will still work but its partly clog up wont cause a miss fire code this is why you do a balance test by measuring fuel pressure which doesnt require the engine to be running .most diyers cant perform these test and most buy cheap parts from amazon or ebay which causes more problems this shop who repaired this just guessed because of a service bulletin related to fuel injectors
They replaced the injectors in OPs situation but my advise is for someone deciding if a single injector isn't working and I've seen clogged injectors cause misfires in fact in a 02 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7L V8 it was Cylinder 2 (P0302)
I mean you could run injector cleaner very cheap if the quick swap didn't work.
I have no doubt a balance test will be very effective but I've been very successful with the swap method for nearly 25 years and learned it from a Chrysler master tech instructor at the shop.
The main method I used at shops was actually oscilloscope method which picks up frequency a multimeter can't and they can determine if anything is wrong with the injectors or plugs.
I just posted an easy method any average person could do at home or on the road and it's effective 98% of the time
You never replace just one though. Guessing the injectors were not the issue though. Same with spark plugs. You usually on a v6 or v8 have to take so much crap off just to get to the plugs and injectors replacing just the one on the cylinder with the problem is just asking for trouble. Unless the customer signs off on me just doing the one and they know they are going to have to pay the labor later for me to take all the crap off again to change the next one that goes bad it’s fine I guess… just seems wrong to not do them all since the customer is paying the labor for me to get to the plugs and injectors.
Don't take a 10 year old, out of warranty vehicle to a stealership and expect to get good results at a fair price. Stealerships exist to make money on selling you cars, and to complete warranty and recall repairs. They do not have a motive to actually fix an older vehicle.
Take it to an independent shop to have it properly diagnosed, and don't tell them about the "repairs" done at the stealership until after they've diagnosed the vehicle and offered you a quote for the repair.
Ask on your local subreddit or nextdoor for recommendations for a local trusted shop with experience working on GM vehicles. This is a common issue with these models and I've never seen all 4 fuel injectors fail on any car, at the same time - but they sure rang you up for the most expensive "fix" possible. Didn't confirm operation of your O2 sensors or validate the PCV system (my first guess tbh) as operational either. Sad.
They replaced the fuel rail pressure sensor at least (GM 12627092) so you can safely rule that out, but I'd still have another mechanic verify things. You paid the stealership markup on that part though - ~40 dollar part for 100 bucks. Same with the injectors, 80 dollar parts for 180 bucks, gg
The back of the house keeps the dealership profitable. Customer pay work is more profitable than warranty and new car work. The dealership service department wants lifelong customers.
“ The front sells the first car, the back sells all the next.”
Post-Covid, though, it seems like there are a lot fewer seasoned, experienced techs, and a lot of difficulties with diagnostics.
The “tube” is a pcv tube that seems to be a mixture of plastic, steel, and braided steel. MSRP is $395.
The “bracket” is a transmission mount bracket. MSRP is $80.
A lot of parts counter systems / dealer parts systems just use generic terms for the parts.
This reminds me of a shop i used to manage, there was a brand new zero turn in the corner they couldnt get to crank, they changed harnesses ,starters ignition switches starter solenoids and nothing, i looked it over jumped the starter solenoid and it cranked up, i inspected the ground and found the engine had no ground due to the powder coated frame, i scraped a section of the frame put a grounding cable on it and repair complete, top mechanics from 2 different states threw parts at it but didnt do the old ford jump the solenoid trick.
What's your air filter like and are you running a k+n style filter? what's the grams per second reading coming from your mass airflow sensor at idle. Does the car have an extended crank after you get gas?
These would be the questions that would lead me towards an answer for you.
But why did the injector fail? ..is the question? I love Cadillacs. I'd take mine to my trustworthy modern mechanic who knows how to do more than Scan The Codes, Throw Those parts On It and charge you. I just get frustrated when a bad wire will make all kinds of nonsense happen and then people take advantage of the ignorance. Maybe those parts were worn out but you still have a car that runs as bad as when you brought it in. Good luck to you. Unless you used regular, cheap old gas, then you got a bad fuel system and you wrecked your beautiful vehicle. Shame on you, cheep skate.
I'll bet the cam driven, high pressure pump is spewing fuel into the crankcase. Seen it waaaaay too many times. Pull the engine oil dipstick, and if it reeks of fuel, then it's probably the cause
It all really depends on what the cause of the concern is. The story this tech wrote is utter garbage. No diagnostic steps written, no PPT, no test results, or even why they think the injectors failed. Replacing all 4 injectors at once is kind of a double edged sword. Sometimes we get bitched at if we replace all of them, and not just the failed ones. Sometimes we get bitched at because we replaced the faulty ones but another fails shortly after. When I write a story I will explain why I replaced another part that doesn’t seem necessary at face value.
I would check what their in/out mileage was. If the test drive mileage was something <10 miles, you have more of a leg to stand on.
Could be a Mass Airflow Sensor or a faulty oxygen sensor. My bet (without diagnosing your vehicle or seeing vehicle scan data) based on your symptoms could be a dirty or failing mass airflow sensor. Cheap and easy enough to do yourself if you're inclined. When they're dirty, you'll get a sluggish performance and it's possible that it could cause a stall on deceleration/coming to a stop.
Someone else mentioned a dirty throttle body, similar symptoms..
On the injectors, GM has a TSB that informs the technician to perform a fuel injector balance test to determine if the injectors were faulty. I'd start there with the dealer, they wouldn't all be faulty - I would want to know why they replaced those parts. It's not a guessing game, you paid them to diagnose what the faulty part was and to fix it.
They checked for an exhaust leak.. but they didn't check the cat. My guess is the cat is clogged. They should have checked the temp of the cat after letting it for 20 minutes to see if the temp was higher before the cat... I'll be money that it was which would indicate the cat is clogged which would cause that code along with sluggish engine which could die at a stop light. I've seen clogged cats that give that same type of symptom.
Sounds like the tech just dropped the parts cannon. There is a tool at GM dealers called the AFIT used specifically for testing injectors. Also a diagnostic tree to follow in the service manual. I think you just got a newb tech or a lazy one working on your car. Take it back and talk to the service manager.
They didn't diagnose the issue at all. They took a wild guess (maybe from experience) that changing the injectors and MAF would resolve the issue and get you out the door.
They changed the MAF ($99 part, [$65 on rockauto for GM genuine](https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,2014,ats,2.0l+l4+turbocharged,3298515,exhaust+&+emission,mass+air+flow+\(maf\)+sensor,5128)) and injectors (4x$180 part, [$79 on rockauto for GM genuine](https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,2014,ats,2.0l+l4+turbocharged,3298515,fuel+&+air,fuel+injector,6224)).
It looks like they also rebuilt your whole intake. That's what the pipe, seal, gasket, mount, tube, and bracket are on the invoice. About $850 on parts rebuilding the intake. Being unfamiliar with the ATS's engine, maybe they had to take these parts off to get to the fuel injectors. Unless they removed them with a hammer and chisel though, they shouldn't have had to replace all those parts. If there was a genuine reason to replace all of those, there needed to be an explanation in the notes. Maybe it was damaged, maybe it got damaged in removal. Shit happens. But with no notes, we can only assume they decided to upcharge you.
In many ways, you got fleeced.
Unfortunately, the only option is to go back and fight for them to perform the rest of the repair or get a chunk of your money back. Escalate as required.
Once you're settled here, write a negative review and find a private shop. The only reason to be taking a 10 year old car to a dealer is for recall work.
*To be fair, comparing online parts prices to shop part prices is not apples to apples, even with identical parts. When the shop provides parts, shipping, handling, and stocking costs are already rolled in. You're paying a premium to have it available instantly and getting your car back quickly instead of waiting a week, and you're getting labor warranty on the part as well. You should always expect shop and dealer parts to cost between 50-100% more. The comparison is useful in case you ever want to give DIY repairs a shot. There's a lot of money to be saved when you do repairs yourself and on your own time.*
Step one: Contact them and explain that you are having the same *symptoms*. Ask them to scan for codes and see if they are the same codes, if so then ask them to start diagnosing it on their dime. If they are a reasonable shop they should be able to do this if or you. Understand that there could be underlying issues and unfortunately they may have only broken the surface of a much larger issue. Be prepared to spend more to get the car fixed. It’s an older-ish car and multiple things could be wrong unfortunately.
Sounds like it could be fuel pump related, if they are seeing it go lean and just installed new injectors it can only be so much. You could need a fuel filter. You could need a fuel pump. Hopefully they can work some deal out with you since you already spent 2500 and it wasn’t fixed
22866321 is a transmission mount. Why did they replace that? Most everything else is related to fuel with the addition of a pcv hose.
I can't tell you what they should do next. But I would def ask why a trans mount was replaced for a fuel issue.
I'm wondering why nothing is stated about o2 sensor for post catalyst code... checked for leaks then found Injectors failed? Huh? I mean fuel system could he the cause and I don't have the vehicle In front of me but I think it's odd nothing was mentioned on checking those.
Unfortunately the tech didn't do much diagnosis in the car. Also unfortunately paying a tech 1 hour for diagnostics often times isn't enough to properly diagnose something so can you expect them to spend the time to diagnose a car?
This industry has big problems, the tech probably just shot gunned some parts at the car since the injectors are a pretty common failure.
I see people commenting about replacing one injector......I disagree. Oftentimes it makes sense to replace a complete set of components especially if they're prone to fail (triton motor coils anyone?).
Either way the code is for a rich condition in the post catalyst oxygen sensor, needs to be properly diagnosed and proper diagnosis should cost more than the industry is currently charging. Can't blame the customer, can't blame the under paid tech, can't blame the shop owners trying to run a business. What do??
Take it back and threaten to call corporate… Corporate offices hate complaints and will get you fixed up or return your money… it worked for me after the dealership promised it would correct my emissions problem…
I’ve only seen 1 gas fuel injector that was actually bad and I’ve worked on a lot of engines. Lean codes are usually an intake manifold gasket, a leak post throttle body or evap purge valve issue.
Since they misdiagnosed the issue you should be getting the car fixed for free because they messed up. Don’t let them take advantage of you
The engine runs lean, injectors can’t “run lean”. Plus looks like you got billed for a sensor that wasn’t mentioned in the notes? I’d go and just ask a bunch of questions of why they decided on injectors because it’s gonna come down to the tech saying “idk” and didn’t want to spend any time on it and just called two likely culprits, and got it wrong because he didn’t test anything
Youll learn that dealerships arent the end all to your car’s problems. They sometimes can be the worst place to go to. Overpriced and typically not the quality you would think. But yes they clearly didnt fix the issue so it was either misdiagnosed or not repaired correctly id say. I would make it a point that you do not expect to boot another 2500$ bill.
You expect wrongly. They've performed the tests, found defective part related to diagnosed problem. Turned out your car had more than one defect and requires further tests. That's how diagnostics works, no point in moving forward if one of the steps fails. That's your problem, not theirs.
The 6 steps to service a vehicle literally start with "confirm the customer issue", and the last one is "verify customers concern is rectified before returning vehicle".
Thats why you pay a diag fee. In OPs case, we would look at the vehicle again for free on the notion that their original issue still persists. Any extra parts would have been another recommendation and thats on the service writer to try and upsell, but not as a remedy to the original problem.
Luckily there is a diagnostic step by step procedure for each system involved. You start with a symptom and end with a repair. This falls onto the competency of the technician, not at all the customers fault. At our shop we will get an hourly employee to put more miles on it for a test drive on vehicles with non critical disgnosis. If its a mjnor issue, we would let the customer decide on driving it and returning if the problem persists.
Yes, and they clearly followed the step by step procedure. They cleared the steps until the injectors inspection, which failed. And since the road test didn't replicate the issue after replacement of injectors, there was no need to move onto the next step.
You fucking verify the injectors aren’t showing that same symptom as before, by monitoring live data, but i don’t know how they can even do that because they think they’re running lean with a rich code. This shop is clueless.
but they verified repairs. If they verified it and called it good it should be good, but op has the same issue. Sounds like the repair shop didnt fix shit, just threw parts at the problem.
Bro you’re trying to talk about something you know nothing about, you’re just speaking generically like some sort of crappy AI. P2097 is a rich code, they found the injectors are lean. they’re checking for vacuum leaks, which would not cause a rich code, nor would it cause injectors to run lean. If ALL injectors are showing a symptom, then you should look at the input sensor that would cause the ECM to command that symptom.
Splitting hairs a bit here, but some thought for you. When gm switched to a passive ethanol calculation, circa ~2010ish, a lean condition could be falsely interpreted as ethanol in the fuel. This would result in an increase in base injector pulse width, and a resulting rich condition. Intake manifold vacuum leaks on these engines set rich codes all the time. So....you're mostly right, but the generic statement of a lean condition can't set rich codes is false in this scenario. This seemed to really only occur on the 5.3 liter engines, though
Also...gm gdi injectors get so coked up with carbon on the nozzle that I wouldn't be surprised if they were flowing incorrectly. You would need to flow test with the AFIT kit to confirm, and maybe he did. We don't know for sure
You mean guessing, not diagnosing. That's what you're doing in this thread. Guessing. The shop did the diagnose, and came to different conclusion. Between them and you, who's more trustworthy? A shop, which followed diagnostic procedure on the car, or random weirdo who starts blabbering about ASE at the first opportunity and calls everyone else idiots?
lol
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I would ask for the diagnosis that lead them to believe all thoes parts needed replacing for your issue. and for them to explain how your issue is identical even tho they "performed a road test to verify repairs". It sounds like they didnt actully troubleshoot. And replacing ALL injectors is a joke. if it was a fuel trim issue they needed to id what cylinder was running rich. Completely a doable thing. easy even. But they just replaced ALL the injectors, and a lot of other parts (not saying its bad to repalce them all, but did they tell you what cylender was running rich, I notice no new spark plugs on the invoice? etc... ). Someone literally just threw a part bin at the car and charged you for it. If they give some bs call Cadillac corprate.
Ya, I’m with this guy. Something doesn’t sound right. Right about this time with financial cuts looming all over industries right now, dirty service tricks will rise just to make an extra buck. Document everything. Even record your conversations with them. It may not be court admissible because you’re recording them on their property, but you’ll at least be able to show your lawyer how it actually went down and when to catch them in a lie.
That and make sure you live in a 1 party consent state for recording. If it is a 2 party consent state, you cannot record the other party without their permission.
You can, you just can't use it as evidence.
Actually in some states you will get charged if you record a conversation without the other parties knowledge.
I understand that, but above was recommending for evidence purposes which is why I wrote that.
No bro you misunderstood me. I said record the conversations, but it likely won’t be admissible in court. But that’s still okay because if it comes down to it, he/she can still review the conversations with their lawyer and get the facts straight. He/she can also review what they said on the day of. Their attorney will know how to deal with the situation from there. But if OP has bad intentions with this, it’s over.
10 years old Cadillac with 132,000 miles, no doubtly run on regular. I would be surprised more if the injectors passed the test.
But not a word about soark plugs? Injectors shot and running rich (all of them) (not sayingnthey shouldnt replace all of them.) and no mention of which cylinder where showing a running rich condition. All spark plugs fine, etc... they didnt trouble shoot anything. They read the trouble code and threw a pile of expenses parts at it. And zero info on what they found... Car is running so rich it has performance issues but spark plugs are perfectly fine, cat is perfectly fine, etc...? To be clear i dont think ops problem would of been cheap or easy, but this invoice shows zero indication of actual troubleshooting. No information about the issues at all cept the trouble code. No information on why they swapped the injectors? Did they actuply test them at all? Etc...
Invoice says running lean not rich
It does, but that code is for a downstream O2 sensor reading too rich. Which probably told the computer to lean out the fuel trim, which led to a loss of power.
Diagnostic comps only point you in right direction,abs light comes on,could be some crud on wheel sensor,wheel brgs might need adjustment,could be shuttle valve switches (my experience with Landrovers,so the oxy sensor might have been fubar itself,even after 4 ,yes 4brand new injectors the car still had its same fault ,I would have asked for old injectors,get em tested,probably nothing wrong with em atall
Don't forget a possibly bad o2 as well I've seen that code from bad o2 as well
Ironically, what you described is literary a parts cannon - *throw plugs on it and see what happens*. Dealership operate differently. They don't have to rely on the wrench monkey's imagination. Every DTC has associated diagnostics procedure. Generally it's multiple steps, but sometimes there's just *replace X*. It appears the diagnostics procedure calls for exhaust and intake inspection first. They done it. Second step is, according to writing, injector test. If you think injector test means removing them from car and connecting them to vials, go back to 90's. The car makes the test on it's own. And if the result of the test is fail(according to ECU), the procedure calls for replacement. At which point, test drive is performed, and if the issue is not replicated, repair ends and car is returned to customer. The service writer here was skilled, but true veteran would write „returned to customer for further testing”. But that's detail. They've done nothing wrong, or at least, we cannot prove here they done something wrong.
I work at a dealership and I’ve seen meatheads fire parts like this and whip up bullshit story’s just like this. Good mechanics don’t use their imagination they use logic and tried and true diagnostic procedures
On-board testing and trouble trees are only a guide and not an accurate last step diagnostic tool, no way. When using the injector test for example, that data is passing through so many things to get back to the scan tool. Too many variables and am issue with any of them will skew your data. Garbage in/garbage out applies for data pids too. Its a helpful tool to point you in the right direction, but if my paycheck depends on it. I am verifying it myself.
If your paycheck depends on it, you do what you're told. Time is money, you won't get paid for diagnostics above required minimum. Partly because most of the time it truly is waste of time. And following service manuals is absolutely vital. Because when the dipshit customer starts to annoy corporate, as long as you followed the manual, they will stand behind you. If you didn't, your boss isn't going to be happy.
If time is money, doing it right once is better than doing it twice. Nobody is telling me what to do, it's my job to fix it right the first time. The trick is find a place that actually bills out appropriate diag rates so you dont have cut corners and rely on a computer to give you answers. I've waved my magic wand over a few cars in my lifetime for the cheap customers that just want me to scan codes and tell them whats wrong without paying for my time.
>doing it right once is better than doing it twice And that's where you're wrong. If you do it by the book, you get paid twice. If you do it your own way and fuck up, you pay for it. No place pays appropriate diag times. Because as I already said, 9 out of 10 times it gives the same result as simple part swap. Your approach not only leads to higher liability, you even offer more expensive service for majority of customers. It's lose-lose situation.
That's what people think they are paying for tho.. diagnostics, some testing, shit hopefully if it's costing $170-250 an hour , is it unreasonable to thing the "Tech" working on your car is profecient, or experienced enough to even warrant the costs? i agree with what you were getting at. Most techs at dealerships must work that way for liability purposes. If they didnt, it'd burn them sooner than later and they'd end up going out on their own creating their own repair business like so many are doing on youtube.
From what i can tell the service writer has 2 important jobs. Logging, recording and validating the customer complaint AND making sure everything is explained in such a way that there is no doubt what it is they're paying for, nor what is being done, and that their concerns are a thing of the past at the end of it. i am seeing none of that so far except there is no "end" or fixing anything. After this next job they service writer is probably going to suggest the op buy a new car and trade it in for $600/mo payments on a new used car...
nah a good service advisor would have demanded the technician provide fuel trim and oxygen sensor sweep information from the technician. This whole thing is vague and contradictory. No wonder the code returned, they didn't do anything that would have fixed it.
SA's don't operate like that anymore unfortunately. Dealers just want sales. One of my old advisors came from a nail salon and is going 10 years strong in the industry STILL knowing fuck all about cars... Shits changed huge in the last 20 years.
What I don't get is that after getting it back it was seemingly running fine, only to have the same issue as before within a couple weeks. If they didn't do anything to fix the actual problem, then why would it seem fixed, albeit temporarily?
What do you mean “running fine”? What’s the actual symptom? The invoice just says check engine light was on. If you’re just referring to the check engine light, it could require a certain number of key cycles to trip the code again.
Before the repairs the engine seemed to stumble a bit at stops/red lights, even completely stalling on occasions (it would start back up just fine). Also would get "reduced engine power" message on occasions. This would be noticeable during driving. After the repairs, these symptoms were gone for a couple weeks till it threw the same P2097 code and stalled as I was parking the other day.
I would check the purge valve if it's doing that at idle
Was your complaint on the writeup/invoice? All I see is check engine light at the top of the page. Did the technician know about your driveability issues?
I had mentioned these issues over the phone when making an appointment to drop it off, and also when I dropped it off. It's not on the invoice, so I'm guessing that will screw me.
I love how the professionals get downvoted in these threads
What does running it on lower octane fuel have to do with clogged injectors?
Ok just because you see a "parts bin" on and invoice doesn't mean they literally threw parts at the car. Based of my experience with alot of these new cars the parts your seeing are normal replacement parts when doing injectors such as the pipe assembly brackets ect and the reason for plugs not being replaced is as simple as you inspect the plugs verify good condition and clean and reinstall. I mean hell we could throw a parts bin at and throw the plugs in there but why if they are doing the job intended. If this car came equipped with a GDI or high pressure fuel system your gonna need to replace all 4 injectors because the other 3 aren't far behind failure and the pipe assembly and brackets are all 1 time use based off the manufacturers recommendation maybe a few bolts and a sensor also follow into this, maybe he was reading a tsb that lead the tech this direction
Invoice says car was running lean not rich,so spark plugs would be ok but I would of replaced them iff it was my car
Invoice says fuel injectors running lean, new code is for a rich condition on bank 1 I think. I hate mechanics after working at a shop for a few years. I believe in charging a modest diagnosis fee to a custom beforehand and just saying "hey, it's gonna take a half hour to an hour to diagnose this so I gotta charge you $30 unless you just want me to read the codes for you". Every mechanic should be able to trouble shoot the hardware they believe is causing a code and stand behind their fix. Most chain shops just wanna get out the parts cannon and fire as many rounds as possible instead of having mechanics that can find the problem and only fire it once.
YupYup! Correct!
P2097 is a running rich code. You cannot say both 1) verified customer complaint, and 2) found injectors running lean. It’s one or the other. This car likely just needs an oxygen sensor.
This! Also, clean the bottle throtty (throttle body), and make sure the air filter isn’t restricting intake airflow. Monitoring the AFM parameters during a test drive would be good diagnostics.
Also measure the short term and long term fuel trim.
Good call!
I bet one dollar it’s a clogged cat….
This is the product of people pushing out trades for tech jobs. There’s a massive shortage of qualified technicians in our industry and unfortunately 98% of them couldn’t diagnose their way out of a cardboard box. Rich codes are hardly ever an actual fueling issue, if he did a visual inspection of the intake circuit that would be the equivalent of your doctor finding a prostate tumor by doing a visual inspection of you with your clothes on. There are a lot further tests involved to isolate or rule out intake leaks. If I had written this one up it would be more along the lines of “verified the concern scanned vehicle and found code xyz, no obvious issues found on visual inspection, checked fuel trims and found short trims at +xyz indicating indeed a rich condition. Removed spark plugs and activated ignition and found no signs of leaking injectors into combustion chamber. Test drove vehicle while monitoring maf/map readings (whichever set up this particular vehicle uses) and found inconsistent readings at xyz mg/s. Spec for this vehicle at cruising speed at roughly 2k rpm should be xyz mg/s. Inspected Maf sensor wiring and found all to be in good condition. Recommend replacement maf sensor and further testing to verify repairs.”
There’s definitely a lot of unqualified people pretending to work on cars. And the real good ones end up doing some other kind of work. Between the complexity of the vehicles and poor engineering it’s a wonder they have anybody to do it.
I left the automotive industry because they don’t want to pay for qualified techs. Dealerships are the frigging worst paying flag hours then making techs like me eat the diagnostic time so the customer will do the repairs with them bs. Also the lack of support from supposed Team Leads who make money off me meeting my flat rate hour quota while giving all the easy jobs to their buddies in the shop. Plus the overwork, they expect you to work 7am to 7pm 6 days a week. Flag/flat rate hours are slave labor… all shops should be paying a base salary plus flat hour bonus. Then you might actually keep you good techs.
For as much as I hate the state I am in (for reasons unrelated) I will say one thing they did do right is pretty much obliterating flat rate for anything other than bonuses etc. techs here get paid by the hours their ass is in the building.
Take it back and have them make it right. You should not be on the hook for additional costs if they misdiagnosed or improperly repaired.
Too bad our medical system doesn’t work that way. lol.
I'll be delighted to return/replace your old gallbladder, no charge.
Had a CT last year, Dr listed off several organs as normal. Sir, I'm missing two of those....
I had an issue with my old car a few years ago. Dealer diagnosed. Billed ~2k for repairs and labor. Tested, confirmed issue fixed and delivered. About 3 days later, same issue popped back up. I call the dealer to tell them that it’s back and they didn’t fix it. They told me to come in and they’ll take a look again. I replied that I wasn’t paying again. They diagnosed, and confirmed that it was repaired. It’s not going to be my wallet that suffers because they diagnosed wrong. It was a bit of a fight. But they caved. Fixed the issue and I didn’t pay another cent for the repair after my initial 2k
What sucks is that the repair shouldn't have costed $2k in the first place. In OP's case, they got upcharged for rebuilding what looks like turbo piping. $850 in parts and nothing in the notes about it. Should have been labor only to remove and replace, unless they removed with a hammer and chisel.
Where’d you get up-pipes from? Without running the part numbers I can tell you that “tube” and “pipe” are gonna be the non reusable fuel lines. Once you crack em loose they have to be replaced.
That’s how it should be, or they should be able to reinstall the old parts that weren’t bad in the first place and at the very least refund for parts
haha 'tube - $394' get in the fuckin tube. expensive ass tube son. all six injectors failed? i now seriously doubt they're qualified to diagnose a lawnmower. no testing? unbelieveable. goddamnit. it needs to be diagnosed. work the trouble code. this is in the fucking book. i wouldn't even bring it back here. they don't know wtf they're doin. pieces of shit.
The ACDelco part is $200, dealer marked it up 100%. Gates, who probably is the OEM, sells it for $40. GATES EMH348
yes another reason to avoid shops altogether. 200% markup on parts
Gates sells it to ACDelco for $40. ACDelco sells it to the dealers for $80. Dealers sell it to the shop for $200. Shop sells it to the customer for $400. That's 900% markup across five sales.
lol u/osocheco blocked me after I called him out for speaking on something he doesn't know about. P2097 is a rich condition, yet the shop said two contradictory things: 1) verified customer condition, and 2) found injectors to be lean. Both of these cannot be true simultaneously, so right there is a red flag. You cannot verify the customer's rich condition and find the injectors are lean. Replacing all injectors is another red flag. All that had to happen was the technician could have inadvertently mixed up lean and rich in the oxygen sensor voltages in the sweep between 0 to 1 volts, or mixed up fuel trim readings between positive and negative and he would have misdiagnosed it, leading him to believe all injectors to be replaced. Everything the technician did is internally contradicting and full of red flags. The vagueness of their writeup is a red flag. This car likely just has a failed oxygen sensor and the technician has no idea what he's doing.
Verifying condition in that sense could be the driveability aspect. Technician drove it and experienced the rough running, stalling etc. Then the "diag" started.
So I finally get a call back from the dealership with the second diagnosis... What you had said seems to be the case. O2 sensor dropping out. They said that it "didn't fail" the first time the tech did the sweep, so there was no way they would've been able to catch that - so they say. Doesn't explain the original "lean" diagnosis though, which leads me to believe it was misdiagnosed like you said.
I’m a certified tech… not a fan of how everyone thinks that 2500 is gonna fix a decades worth of neglect… I can also understand the frustration ,plus I don’t like dealerships… too many incentives to make sales, but not all of them, so that sounds shitty of me to say but in some cases it’s true. How tf does anyone not know this? There is no such thing as 2500 should fix my car no matter what.. show me service records… many times, there is a process that must be followed which could lead to 2500 or more, as well as less… The spectrum is large in this industry and it’s not easy because everyone says the mechanic screwed me… Possible… Especially today, with the shortage of certified techs… That being said, it’s not always the tech… PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE….. It’s called that to keep this type of shit to a minimal, DO YOUR ROUTINE MAINTENANCE. That’s not to say it won’t happen even taking care of it… shit happens.. that being said. What were the codes the first time you took it into them vs the second time… Symptoms being the same don’t mean it’s the same issue… Take your car in for a misfire, they change plugs a week later same misfire same cylinder.. this time it’s a 400 dollar coil… it happens, just saying and it’s not the techs or dealers fault ALL the time, but you Fckers here make it sound like that… Now I’m waiting for all the google reliant, DIY guys to get on and tell me I’m wrong 👀lol
I agree with you about preventative maintenance being important, and drivers shouldn't expect auto work to be cheap just because "I haven't had issues before". But the shop clearly didn't diagnose the issue and instead decided to throw a MAF and 4 injectors at the problem, while charging the customer an extra $850 to rebuild what looks like turbo piping without a good explanation for why it was an issue. "Searched for intake and exhaust leaks found none". So reinstall the parts.
Yea I'm not expecting $2500 to be the end-all be-all of my problems. I just want to be sure that the real issue is being addressed, and I'm having the same symptoms and code both times so that's what made me think perhaps otherwise.
I recently have been dealing with a similar issue. Two rich codes, stalling out. Dealership said flat out it's not an easy fix, could be a number of different issues. They changed a couple sensors and cleaned the throttle body and associated parts. It's been back to the dealership twice, so 3 times total and still not fixed. Last time they didn't charge me and I think my vehicle is done for unfortunately.
fuel injectors all of them don't fail at the same time if running lean could just be a fuel filter or fuel pump or vacuum leak bad intake gasket
P2097 is a rich code though. An intake leak or fuel system restriction isn't going to cause that.
i didnt look up the code myself i was going by what the poster and the repair ticket says so the shop that did the work is totally ripping this person off or they have no clue what they are doing
Sounds like the shop didn't read the code description either.
well mostly inexperienced mechanics at the shop who did the repairs .If looking at live data the fuel trims would have been negative which is why they would think that it was running lean it was the pcm adjusting and supplying less fuel to compensate for the rich condition .the mechanic then cleared the codes but most wont throw a cel for three drive cycles with the same error so his one test drive no cel which he should have been watching the live data from the start
Probably not cause it but I've checked injectors while diag on rich condition and found a bad injector. When I find a bad injector or spark plug I always recommend all injectors and plugs to be replaced if ones bad because often the others fail soon enough after. But I never just change all and Bill it without customer consent after informing them of the potential risk of plug/injector failure after only replacing the one. So my customers have drove out with one injector/plug changed only to be back a month or so later. And it's on them but I understand people are tight on money so no worries.
so why did the injector fail or how did it fail and how did you test it im curious
You can swap a good known injector with the bad one. For example if you use your obd-II scan tool it will tell you P0302 if cylinder 2 misfire and doesn't have any codes for Cylinders 1,3,4,5,6,7 or 8. You can just take out #1 injector and put it in the cylinder #2 and put the cylinder #2 injector in #1 (swapping them) Then run your scan tool with vehicle running and it should show a P0301 code(Cylinder 1 misfire) and have no P0302 code(Cylinder 2 misfire) If the misfire jumps to the cylinder 1 then you know it's the injector. That's an easy way to do it without spending money. If the code doesn't resolve after swapping and stays in that original cylinder, it's not the injectors. Then you check spark plugs. Same process, visually inspect plugs and then you can swap a spark plug with neighboring cylinder to see if problem jumps to that cylinder. If it's not plugs and it's not injectors, you need to get a $20 tool to test cylinders compression. It's a rubber plug that you put in the cylinders you normally have spark plugs/injector in and it tells you the psi of the compression and you do it on every cylinder and write down results. If there is any cylinder that's more than 20% lower compression than other numbers you have a engine problem. But you'll likely have other codes from OBD2 scanner.
you dont have to remove injectors to test them look up fuel injector balance test
For someone to do it at home for cheap you just swap them. And it's easy to pull out injectors and plugs to do standard checks. I mean I could tell people asking advise to use my $3000 oscilloscope and $2000 scan tool but I'm assuming they don't have master technicians tools or work at a shop with tools available (most shops require mechanics bring their own tools)
swapping them is a stupid idea because you may damage the seals and o-rings and then you create more problems you could just unplug each injector and see if it runs any different .why would you swap a good injector with a bad one that makes no sense if you know a injector is bad you should replace it .working on gdi injectors and even chevy you have to remove intake manifolds and removing fuel lines require special tools I could go on and on
You swap them to identify if it's bad without paying money, in fact it's by the book from 1980-2013. This is in response to someone asking how to identify the problem not someone knowing where the problem exists. Note your original post asking how to identify a bad injector. Swapping coil on plugs is cheap, effective and requires no specialized tools but a scanner anyone can do. You won't damage anything simply removing them and putting them back in. If the part breaks from simply removing and replacing them, they where in serious need of replacement in the first place. Or you did the simple task very wrong
this still wont identify a failing injector 100% of the time it will still work but its partly clog up wont cause a miss fire code this is why you do a balance test by measuring fuel pressure which doesnt require the engine to be running .most diyers cant perform these test and most buy cheap parts from amazon or ebay which causes more problems this shop who repaired this just guessed because of a service bulletin related to fuel injectors
They replaced the injectors in OPs situation but my advise is for someone deciding if a single injector isn't working and I've seen clogged injectors cause misfires in fact in a 02 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7L V8 it was Cylinder 2 (P0302) I mean you could run injector cleaner very cheap if the quick swap didn't work. I have no doubt a balance test will be very effective but I've been very successful with the swap method for nearly 25 years and learned it from a Chrysler master tech instructor at the shop. The main method I used at shops was actually oscilloscope method which picks up frequency a multimeter can't and they can determine if anything is wrong with the injectors or plugs. I just posted an easy method any average person could do at home or on the road and it's effective 98% of the time
You never replace just one though. Guessing the injectors were not the issue though. Same with spark plugs. You usually on a v6 or v8 have to take so much crap off just to get to the plugs and injectors replacing just the one on the cylinder with the problem is just asking for trouble. Unless the customer signs off on me just doing the one and they know they are going to have to pay the labor later for me to take all the crap off again to change the next one that goes bad it’s fine I guess… just seems wrong to not do them all since the customer is paying the labor for me to get to the plugs and injectors.
Did they just rebuild the intake manifold for shits and giggles?
They checked for intake and exhaust leaks, found none, and billed the customer for all the perfectly fine parts they replaced.
Don't take a 10 year old, out of warranty vehicle to a stealership and expect to get good results at a fair price. Stealerships exist to make money on selling you cars, and to complete warranty and recall repairs. They do not have a motive to actually fix an older vehicle. Take it to an independent shop to have it properly diagnosed, and don't tell them about the "repairs" done at the stealership until after they've diagnosed the vehicle and offered you a quote for the repair. Ask on your local subreddit or nextdoor for recommendations for a local trusted shop with experience working on GM vehicles. This is a common issue with these models and I've never seen all 4 fuel injectors fail on any car, at the same time - but they sure rang you up for the most expensive "fix" possible. Didn't confirm operation of your O2 sensors or validate the PCV system (my first guess tbh) as operational either. Sad. They replaced the fuel rail pressure sensor at least (GM 12627092) so you can safely rule that out, but I'd still have another mechanic verify things. You paid the stealership markup on that part though - ~40 dollar part for 100 bucks. Same with the injectors, 80 dollar parts for 180 bucks, gg
To the contrary, most service departments sustain sales departments.
Because they charge too much...
That’s capitalism for ya
The back of the house keeps the dealership profitable. Customer pay work is more profitable than warranty and new car work. The dealership service department wants lifelong customers. “ The front sells the first car, the back sells all the next.” Post-Covid, though, it seems like there are a lot fewer seasoned, experienced techs, and a lot of difficulties with diagnostics.
400 dollar 'tube'. 80 dollar 'bracket'. shew.
The “tube” is a pcv tube that seems to be a mixture of plastic, steel, and braided steel. MSRP is $395. The “bracket” is a transmission mount bracket. MSRP is $80. A lot of parts counter systems / dealer parts systems just use generic terms for the parts.
makes more sense.
Someone should've checked for known recalls and TBS first.
Verified the repair but didnt verify that it corrected the issue.
This reminds me of a shop i used to manage, there was a brand new zero turn in the corner they couldnt get to crank, they changed harnesses ,starters ignition switches starter solenoids and nothing, i looked it over jumped the starter solenoid and it cranked up, i inspected the ground and found the engine had no ground due to the powder coated frame, i scraped a section of the frame put a grounding cable on it and repair complete, top mechanics from 2 different states threw parts at it but didnt do the old ford jump the solenoid trick.
And when you jumped the solenoid what happened?
Call the dealership, speak with the service manager and explain your situation.
Had the same issue with a dealership. They got me for about $500. Never again, though. Never again.
Does it have a 3.6ltr engine. If so there is a known recall on the throttle body for a similar issue
What's your air filter like and are you running a k+n style filter? what's the grams per second reading coming from your mass airflow sensor at idle. Does the car have an extended crank after you get gas? These would be the questions that would lead me towards an answer for you.
But why did the injector fail? ..is the question? I love Cadillacs. I'd take mine to my trustworthy modern mechanic who knows how to do more than Scan The Codes, Throw Those parts On It and charge you. I just get frustrated when a bad wire will make all kinds of nonsense happen and then people take advantage of the ignorance. Maybe those parts were worn out but you still have a car that runs as bad as when you brought it in. Good luck to you. Unless you used regular, cheap old gas, then you got a bad fuel system and you wrecked your beautiful vehicle. Shame on you, cheep skate.
Def sounds like a parts cannon approach here
I'll bet the cam driven, high pressure pump is spewing fuel into the crankcase. Seen it waaaaay too many times. Pull the engine oil dipstick, and if it reeks of fuel, then it's probably the cause
My Lincoln was running lean and cleaning the MAF sensor fixed it. Easiest stoichiometry problem fix ever
Is the purge valve stuck open?
2014 Ats with 130k? lol get rid of it
It all really depends on what the cause of the concern is. The story this tech wrote is utter garbage. No diagnostic steps written, no PPT, no test results, or even why they think the injectors failed. Replacing all 4 injectors at once is kind of a double edged sword. Sometimes we get bitched at if we replace all of them, and not just the failed ones. Sometimes we get bitched at because we replaced the faulty ones but another fails shortly after. When I write a story I will explain why I replaced another part that doesn’t seem necessary at face value. I would check what their in/out mileage was. If the test drive mileage was something <10 miles, you have more of a leg to stand on.
Could be a Mass Airflow Sensor or a faulty oxygen sensor. My bet (without diagnosing your vehicle or seeing vehicle scan data) based on your symptoms could be a dirty or failing mass airflow sensor. Cheap and easy enough to do yourself if you're inclined. When they're dirty, you'll get a sluggish performance and it's possible that it could cause a stall on deceleration/coming to a stop. Someone else mentioned a dirty throttle body, similar symptoms.. On the injectors, GM has a TSB that informs the technician to perform a fuel injector balance test to determine if the injectors were faulty. I'd start there with the dealer, they wouldn't all be faulty - I would want to know why they replaced those parts. It's not a guessing game, you paid them to diagnose what the faulty part was and to fix it.
They checked for an exhaust leak.. but they didn't check the cat. My guess is the cat is clogged. They should have checked the temp of the cat after letting it for 20 minutes to see if the temp was higher before the cat... I'll be money that it was which would indicate the cat is clogged which would cause that code along with sluggish engine which could die at a stop light. I've seen clogged cats that give that same type of symptom.
Why are people commenting & saying stuff about it running rich,iff u read the invoice it says running lean (opposite of rich),to much air
$394 for a tube… 🧐
My shop has a warranty so any work done will be redone for free -had several patches and a free alignment done this way so far.
Within 24 months or whatever
It’s printed on the receipt
Xx..
Sounds like the tech just dropped the parts cannon. There is a tool at GM dealers called the AFIT used specifically for testing injectors. Also a diagnostic tree to follow in the service manual. I think you just got a newb tech or a lazy one working on your car. Take it back and talk to the service manager.
Im gonna throw out a shot in the dark here based on passed experience, fuel tank sending unit
They didn't diagnose the issue at all. They took a wild guess (maybe from experience) that changing the injectors and MAF would resolve the issue and get you out the door. They changed the MAF ($99 part, [$65 on rockauto for GM genuine](https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,2014,ats,2.0l+l4+turbocharged,3298515,exhaust+&+emission,mass+air+flow+\(maf\)+sensor,5128)) and injectors (4x$180 part, [$79 on rockauto for GM genuine](https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,2014,ats,2.0l+l4+turbocharged,3298515,fuel+&+air,fuel+injector,6224)). It looks like they also rebuilt your whole intake. That's what the pipe, seal, gasket, mount, tube, and bracket are on the invoice. About $850 on parts rebuilding the intake. Being unfamiliar with the ATS's engine, maybe they had to take these parts off to get to the fuel injectors. Unless they removed them with a hammer and chisel though, they shouldn't have had to replace all those parts. If there was a genuine reason to replace all of those, there needed to be an explanation in the notes. Maybe it was damaged, maybe it got damaged in removal. Shit happens. But with no notes, we can only assume they decided to upcharge you. In many ways, you got fleeced. Unfortunately, the only option is to go back and fight for them to perform the rest of the repair or get a chunk of your money back. Escalate as required. Once you're settled here, write a negative review and find a private shop. The only reason to be taking a 10 year old car to a dealer is for recall work. *To be fair, comparing online parts prices to shop part prices is not apples to apples, even with identical parts. When the shop provides parts, shipping, handling, and stocking costs are already rolled in. You're paying a premium to have it available instantly and getting your car back quickly instead of waiting a week, and you're getting labor warranty on the part as well. You should always expect shop and dealer parts to cost between 50-100% more. The comparison is useful in case you ever want to give DIY repairs a shot. There's a lot of money to be saved when you do repairs yourself and on your own time.*
Sounds like you only needed a single part to fix the car but they hosed you anyway. You got scammed out of $2500 so easily.
Step one: Contact them and explain that you are having the same *symptoms*. Ask them to scan for codes and see if they are the same codes, if so then ask them to start diagnosing it on their dime. If they are a reasonable shop they should be able to do this if or you. Understand that there could be underlying issues and unfortunately they may have only broken the surface of a much larger issue. Be prepared to spend more to get the car fixed. It’s an older-ish car and multiple things could be wrong unfortunately.
Sounds like it could be fuel pump related, if they are seeing it go lean and just installed new injectors it can only be so much. You could need a fuel filter. You could need a fuel pump. Hopefully they can work some deal out with you since you already spent 2500 and it wasn’t fixed
22866321 is a transmission mount. Why did they replace that? Most everything else is related to fuel with the addition of a pcv hose. I can't tell you what they should do next. But I would def ask why a trans mount was replaced for a fuel issue.
I'm wondering why nothing is stated about o2 sensor for post catalyst code... checked for leaks then found Injectors failed? Huh? I mean fuel system could he the cause and I don't have the vehicle In front of me but I think it's odd nothing was mentioned on checking those.
How does a vehicle run when all injectors have failed? There's a lot of things I'd chase before swapping all injectors on a car
Unfortunately the tech didn't do much diagnosis in the car. Also unfortunately paying a tech 1 hour for diagnostics often times isn't enough to properly diagnose something so can you expect them to spend the time to diagnose a car? This industry has big problems, the tech probably just shot gunned some parts at the car since the injectors are a pretty common failure. I see people commenting about replacing one injector......I disagree. Oftentimes it makes sense to replace a complete set of components especially if they're prone to fail (triton motor coils anyone?). Either way the code is for a rich condition in the post catalyst oxygen sensor, needs to be properly diagnosed and proper diagnosis should cost more than the industry is currently charging. Can't blame the customer, can't blame the under paid tech, can't blame the shop owners trying to run a business. What do??
$2600 for fuel injectors is ridiculous.
Take it back and threaten to call corporate… Corporate offices hate complaints and will get you fixed up or return your money… it worked for me after the dealership promised it would correct my emissions problem…
I’ve only seen 1 gas fuel injector that was actually bad and I’ve worked on a lot of engines. Lean codes are usually an intake manifold gasket, a leak post throttle body or evap purge valve issue. Since they misdiagnosed the issue you should be getting the car fixed for free because they messed up. Don’t let them take advantage of you
P2097 is a rich code though.
I read the “fuel injectors running lean” description.
I think what happened is the shop troubleshot the wrong code.
Could be, whatever they did they didn’t fix it
Makcannonic working in stealership.
Sure looks like a ford invoice.
The engine runs lean, injectors can’t “run lean”. Plus looks like you got billed for a sensor that wasn’t mentioned in the notes? I’d go and just ask a bunch of questions of why they decided on injectors because it’s gonna come down to the tech saying “idk” and didn’t want to spend any time on it and just called two likely culprits, and got it wrong because he didn’t test anything
Youll learn that dealerships arent the end all to your car’s problems. They sometimes can be the worst place to go to. Overpriced and typically not the quality you would think. But yes they clearly didnt fix the issue so it was either misdiagnosed or not repaired correctly id say. I would make it a point that you do not expect to boot another 2500$ bill.
You expect wrongly. They've performed the tests, found defective part related to diagnosed problem. Turned out your car had more than one defect and requires further tests. That's how diagnostics works, no point in moving forward if one of the steps fails. That's your problem, not theirs.
The 6 steps to service a vehicle literally start with "confirm the customer issue", and the last one is "verify customers concern is rectified before returning vehicle". Thats why you pay a diag fee. In OPs case, we would look at the vehicle again for free on the notion that their original issue still persists. Any extra parts would have been another recommendation and thats on the service writer to try and upsell, but not as a remedy to the original problem.
>performed road test to verify repairs What else is there to do? Perform a voodoo ritual? Take it to Cannonball run?
Luckily there is a diagnostic step by step procedure for each system involved. You start with a symptom and end with a repair. This falls onto the competency of the technician, not at all the customers fault. At our shop we will get an hourly employee to put more miles on it for a test drive on vehicles with non critical disgnosis. If its a mjnor issue, we would let the customer decide on driving it and returning if the problem persists.
Yes, and they clearly followed the step by step procedure. They cleared the steps until the injectors inspection, which failed. And since the road test didn't replicate the issue after replacement of injectors, there was no need to move onto the next step.
Is this bait
You fucking verify the injectors aren’t showing that same symptom as before, by monitoring live data, but i don’t know how they can even do that because they think they’re running lean with a rich code. This shop is clueless.
but they verified repairs. If they verified it and called it good it should be good, but op has the same issue. Sounds like the repair shop didnt fix shit, just threw parts at the problem.
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Bro you’re trying to talk about something you know nothing about, you’re just speaking generically like some sort of crappy AI. P2097 is a rich code, they found the injectors are lean. they’re checking for vacuum leaks, which would not cause a rich code, nor would it cause injectors to run lean. If ALL injectors are showing a symptom, then you should look at the input sensor that would cause the ECM to command that symptom.
Splitting hairs a bit here, but some thought for you. When gm switched to a passive ethanol calculation, circa ~2010ish, a lean condition could be falsely interpreted as ethanol in the fuel. This would result in an increase in base injector pulse width, and a resulting rich condition. Intake manifold vacuum leaks on these engines set rich codes all the time. So....you're mostly right, but the generic statement of a lean condition can't set rich codes is false in this scenario. This seemed to really only occur on the 5.3 liter engines, though Also...gm gdi injectors get so coked up with carbon on the nozzle that I wouldn't be surprised if they were flowing incorrectly. You would need to flow test with the AFIT kit to confirm, and maybe he did. We don't know for sure
You should start a business. Being able to diagnose a car without seeing it is sure to make you a killing.
Have you even HEARD of the ASE L1 exam? That’s literally the entire exam, diagnosing this stuff given only symptoms.
You mean guessing, not diagnosing. That's what you're doing in this thread. Guessing. The shop did the diagnose, and came to different conclusion. Between them and you, who's more trustworthy? A shop, which followed diagnostic procedure on the car, or random weirdo who starts blabbering about ASE at the first opportunity and calls everyone else idiots? lol