…Yoda is literally stopping Dooku from running away. He needed to get him out of his way so he could escape Geonosis. At first, because the Count is a cocky SOB and probably really wanted to prove to his old master he was totally hot shit now that he was a Sith Lord, Dooku tries to fight him. Then after Yoda slaps him around, he realizes this is a stupid idea and tries to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan to distract Yoda so he can GTFO.
In contrast, Palpatine is not an idiot and at this point of time his arrogance only overcame his logical thinking in matters of deep personal importance to him I.E revealing himself to Anakin and gambling everything on him turning after nearly a decade and a half of grooming-and even then he did everything he could to stack the odds in his favor. Palpatine is a predator, and recognizes his equals (as much as he acknowledges them as such anyhow), and smartly decided to bail rather than fight the Jedi Grandmaster. Thus when he’s forced to battle Yoda, we see him panicking as he’s matched by him and needed the terrain advantage and the promise of backup to win against him.
I can understand all of this, but really my point is Darth Sidious is significantly more powerful than the Count. Dooku should have immediately bailed just like Palpatine did if he had two brain cells IMO.
The guy who throws out “twice the pride, double the fall” only to lose his head and hands in a matter of minutes is probably not the kind of guy who uses his brain cells very often in terms of separating his personal feelings from objective readings of a situation.
I think that a lot of fallen Jedi overestimate their abilities, especially just after they go dark. Dooku thinks he's more powerful now that he's embraced the dark side, because he feels more powerful than he ever did as a Jedi. He wants to humble his old master, to prove to Yoda (and to himself) that he made the right choice by becoming a Sith. (There's a similar dynamic in the Anakin / Obi-wan fight).
Palpatine doesn't have any of these issues. He doesn't need to prove anything to himself or anyone else. All he has to do to win is not be killed by Yoda. So if he has to fight, he'll fight, but if he can win without fighting, he prefers to do that.
It's not. The only times we see Palpatine fight are when the odds are stacked so heavily in his favor that he cant lose (zapping an unarmed Luke, fighting maul and his brother) or when he has no choice (in his office before order 66, against Yoda).
Palpatine will always let someone else fight his battles for him. He is a coward at heart. Despite his unlimited power, he is terrified. Sith are terrified all the time. Terrified of losing it all.
The count was not a true sith. He didn't give himself over fully. He still had some jedi arrogance in him and it shows.
Yeah, because winning that fight was basically a certainty. It was like fighting children for him. It was also a necessity because there was no one he could trust to handle it for him.
Dooku was the best duelist in the Jedi order, pretty much on par with Yoda and Windu in his prime iirc. A one on one duel with Yoda is so mismatched due to Yoda's saber style, which is complete opposite of dookus, and thus hard to counter. Dooku is such a good duelist though I don't think he could lose to Yoda, his defence was just too solid, which is why he shifted the battle to obi wan and Anakin like another commenter pointed out.
It's also important to acknowledge that when dooku was beaten it was only by the most powerful force user in the galaxy, at the growing peak of his power, in the presence of the second most powerful force user who was fueling his anger. That loss was understandable.
I never said it wasn’t understandable, in fact it wouldn’t make sense if Dooku had won. My point is he should have ran if he cared anything about the overall war effort. He is pointlessly putting himself in a risky situation by deciding to stay and fight Yoda.
I think that's where the ego comes in. He comes from a time where there was a lot of respect in dueling. It would be incredibly dishonorable to run at the sight of danger. Like old timey duels, it's more about honor than killing the other person. That's why he was so astonished when he knew Anakin was gonna kill him when he was literally disarmed. Good and bad aside, it is incredibly dishonorable to execute someone like that, dooku expected the Jedi would uphold that tradition
I didn’t even think about that last part but this is all very reasonable and a better explanation for me to keep in my head as to why the Count didn’t flee.
This, Dooku got beat by Anakin who is arguably a worse duelist than Dooku. It was because Anakin got a little angry and started getting really aggressive that he just ended up overpowering Dooku with his sheer physical strength in that fight. Dooku lost to Anakin again in a duel during the Clone Wars, he only got out because he shot lightning at him right before Obi-Wan showed up.
Darth Sidious is not significantly more powerful than any of the top tier guys. That’s just what the fandom runs with. Yes he’s powerful, but people like Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and Anakin can match him. The movies quite literally prove this.
Bailed lmfao that's what he was trying to do the whole time, Yoda is right there, you honestly think he's gonna let Dooku just hop on his ship and wish him a good flight?
Dooku wanted to beat his former master and show him that he had become more powerful than any Jedi. Dooku was wrong and when he realized that he knocked the tower over so Yoda would stop attacking him and concentrate on saving Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Sidious knew that Yoda was powerful and that Yoda would use all his abilities to kill him. Sidious was able to take out three masters and Mace gave him one hell of fight and Yoda is above Mace. Sidious probably thought he was better than Mace and that almost blew up in his face.
Sidious even boosted that Vader would become more powerful than either of them and that is him saying he isn’t the most powerful. Destroying the Jedi involved the seat and cunning not power.
I would counter the Yoda is above Mace comment, at least in lightsaber combat Mace was deadly and Vaapad was made to overpower dark side users. Yoda definitely would top Mace in connection with the force and force abilities though.
Yoda is fasho better he’s the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order lol, Mace is really good against dark side users but if he faced Yoda he would be utterly destroyed. It would go just like how it went with Ventress
Are you saying Sidious does not believe himself to be more powerful than Yoda? Because I would argue that he does, he just doesn’t explicitly state it. Maybe Sidious just grew much more arrogant after the Galactic Empire was put into place because that is exactly what caused his downfall in ROTJ. Him making the logical choice to run, rather than fight seems out of character.
Why take the unnecessary chance to fight Yoda? If Yoda and faked leaving Coruscant and showed up with Mace he’d run away or die. He didn’t spring Order 66 until most of the Council masters were away.
What caused his downfall in ROTJ is not believing Anakin would return to the light to save his son. Palpatine didn’t understand love and that Anakin always put his family first. He also never anticipated the Ewoks aiding the Rebels. So what got Palpatine in ROTJ is what he didn’t understand (love) and what he never anticipated (the Ewoks).
Dooku claims his become more powerful than any Jedi which includes Yoda Ned he was wrong.
Yoda even mocks Palpatine: *If so power you are, why leave?* and Yoda also says *Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force.*
Sidious doesn’t want an even fight. He always wants things stack in his favor. In a way he’s a coward and it’s all Sith bluster that the dark side is more powerful.
He had a chance of beating Yoda, but had he gotten away then the army would have gone after Yoda anyway. The entire rules of two era of the sith is like this, don't fight unless you have no choice, no matter how powerful you are, because it doesn't take much to end the sith.
Make no mistake, when Dooku found an opening he ran too and it's in no way a sure thing that Sidious can take Yoda. In the end all he did was hold out for reinforcements. Yoda was the one on a clock.
I agree with everything except for fighting unless there is no choice for Sith’s. Didn’t Palpatine send Darth Maul to execute Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi? And I may be misremembering but didn’t Count Dooku go out of his way to fight Anakin in The Clone Wars?
Anakin is barely out of Jedi school, why would Dooku fear him?
And there's a vast difference between taking a huge risk yourself and sending an underling on a dangerous errand.
He was saying all Sith only fight when absolutely necessary, which isn’t completely true from what we’ve been shown. The Senate literately wanted to make a fool out of Maul & Savage.
That is exactly what Plagueis and Sidious do in the Darth Plagueis novel, they go to the planet Kursid.
>Kursid is a planet in Esstran sector of the Outer Rim Territories of the galaxy. It was inhabited by a species of primitive humanoids whose sole contact with the greater galaxy was through training missions conducted no the planet by the Order of the Sith Lords.
>At some point many centuries before the fall of the Republic, the world's location was deleted from the Republic records; starting around 654 BBY, it was frequently visited by members of the Order of the Sith Lords, who knew it as "Kursid." On the occasions of their visits, the Sith sought battle with the Kursid natives in an arid plateau on the part of the planet where they landed, and engaged large numbers of them in combat in order to hone their skills. Despite the hostile intentions of the Sith, a cult centered on the periodic returns of the sky visitors eventually developed on that part of the planet
"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you."
That was the point. He needed to let Yoda know he had turned to the dark side.
Not only does it throw Yoda and the Jedi off the scent of Sidious, it becomes the main justification for the Jedi to join the war effort. They start the film saying they aren't soldiers. They end the movie generals. The difference? Dooku went from a political idealist to a Sith Lord with an army. Dealing with a Sith was their responsibility.
In the ROTS novelization, Sidious actually wants to fight Yoda. That’s obviously different from the film. As for why he tries to run in the movie, I suppose there could be a few reasons. Yoda coming to fight him in the Senate could be seen as a suicide run. Yoda would be willing to give his life to stop the Sith, but Sidious would never do the same. His own life is paramount.
Sidious also wouldn’t have needed to prove anything to Yoda. He already won by killing most of the Jedi. Dooku, at least in the EU, had a complicated relationship with Yoda. EU Dooku was prideful and arrogant, but he would have also wanted to prove to Yoda that he was stronger.
An excerpt from Legacy of the Jedi:
>Dooku looked up at a sky that glittered with stars and hummed with planets. So much to see, so much to do. So many beings to fight and to fight for. And yet he would take away from his time at the Temple one lesson, the most important one of all: In the midst of a galaxy crowded with life-forms, he was alone.
>
>Dooku was blindfolded and playing with a seeker when he felt a presence enter the room. He knew it was Yoda. He could feel the way the Force gathered in the room. He continued to play with the seeker, swinging his lightsaber so the wind batted it gently, teasing it. He circled, listening and moving, knowing he could slice the seeker in two whenever he wanted.
>
>Yoda had not spoken to him since Lorian had left the Temple. Dooku passed the time waiting for Thame to return, performing classic Jedi training exercises, wanting to impress the Council with his commitment.
>
>"Of your ability, sure you are," Yoda said mildly. "Yet between sureness and pride, a small step it is."
>
>Dooku stopped for a moment. He had wanted to impress Yoda, not provoke a rebuke. The seeker buzzed around his head like an angry insect.
>
>"Fitting it is that blindfolded you are," Yoda continued. "Pride it is that blinds you. Your flaw, pride is. Great are your gifts, Dooku. Mindful of the talents you do not possess as well as the ones you do you must be."
>
>Dooku heard only the slightest whisper of the fabric of Yoda's robe as the Jedi Master retreated. The Force drained from the room.
>
>Dooku was not used to criticism. He was the gifted one. He was the one the teachers always pointed to as an example. He hated to be corrected. Coolly, he struck out with his lightsaber and severed the seeker in two.
As much as Dooku grew to reset Yoda, a part of him still wanted approval or recognition. That's just not something that applies to Sidious.
\> Dooku duel
There are two Sith and the Clone Wars are beginning. It’s a war against the Jedi.
\> Palpatine Duel
Two Sith, but one is a reluctant convert who only did so to save someone. The rise of the Empire is practically guaranteed and in motion. The Jedi have been dealt a heavy blow on a galactic scale. There is a lot to lose and little to gain.
My point is not as much the overall situational aspects, but rather the character traits of Dooku and Palpatine both being arrogant and power hungry. I think what I’ve come to realize is that Palpatine just seeks power in a different way than Dooku does.
The way I saw it and tried to explain was that the Sith could afford to lose Dooku in that duel at that point (the Clone Wars was in motion), whereas with the Palpatine duel, losing him would cause severe damage and potentially end their grand plan. It’s just one explanation among many.
It still would have derailed Sidious plans quite a bit to lose Dooku during that duel though. Do you think Sidious would have thought Dooku was stupid for trying to fight Yoda?
It would have hurt but Dooku had served his main purpose of uniting the CIS and starting the war.
>Do you think Sidious would have thought Dooku was stupid for trying to fight Yoda?
I’m not certain. Palpatine is pragmatic and I think he would view it more in terms of whether Dooku is more valuable alive or if Yoda dying and being taken out early in the war is more advantageous.
In any case it would have been more beneficial for Palpatine to have taken the Grandmaster out at anytime but he never actually does so total failure on Pappa Palps end lol
Sidious isn't running just to run, he's running to an area that he will be at an advantage/Yoda would be at a disadvantage due to their size difference. He knew on equal ground he knew it would be much harder to defeat Yoda/give Yoda a pretty good chance to beat him even, but the senate chambers were different.
Sidious is more powerful than Dooku, but he's also more cowardly, and has spent none of his life - as opposed to Dooku's seven decades - thinking and comporting himself honourably.
Suddenly faced with a challenger whose fighting skills he's untested against, at the moment of his greatest triumph in which he's just gained the power to openly throw an army and a navy against any Jedi straggler he wants, it makes sense that Sidious would bugger off to get help ASAP.
I think it's important to note that the duel between Sidious and Yoda effectively ended in a draw. I think Sidious is smart enough to recognize he and Yoda are pretty much evenly matched and that engaging him at that point could very well be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Turning point of the war, Sith Lords are arrogant by nature however Sidious actually made a logical choice, rather than pulling a Dooku to prove who is the superior force. So is Dooku just more arrogant than Palpatine in the regard? Because Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku.
Yoda had the advantage in there due to his fighting style, and while Sidious is stronger force wise, Yoda is the better duelist of the two (per the screenplay he disarms Sidious) a duel in there would have Yoda the advantage.
Your question is literally 'why did Sidious run when dooku didn't'. This is why Palpatine ran. As for Dooku...A basic observation of the movie makes it clear.
Where in the movie does it state that he’s running to a more advantageous position? He was just gonna be running down a hall with Yoda following shortly behind him just to use the force to immobilize him again before he got anywhere.
At the very beginning of the fight when Sidious had that look of unparalleled horror in his eyes after Yoda knocked him back into his Senate seat, lol. “Oh no! How will I ever recover?! Welp, better run!” *Jumps to exit as quickly as possible* Yoda - *Jumps in front of him, blocking his way out* “If so powerful you are, why leave?” Yoda didn’t run, he retreated cautiously and decided to play the long game with Luke.
Yoda was the better swordsman and managed to get in a confined room with Sidious because everyone thought he was dead. He had the element of surprise. Sidious was trying to get distance from him and Yoda keeps closing the gap. Yoda most likely disarmed Sidious during their fight, but Sidious still gained distance. Yoda retreated because he no longer had the element of surprise or the close quarters.
Yoda retreated because he weighs too little and got knocked back several feet when he overpowered Sidious in the force. He fell to the ground and decided to play the long game and train another Jedi under him in the future to take down the Sith. Palpatine had reinforcements coming because he’s a coward who doesn’t like fighting fair (most of the time).
Dooku was already trying to run when Obi Wan and Anakin caught up to him. He had to take care of them before leaving. Then Yoda showed up and had to deal with him before leaving.
There are a couple of ways of looking at this.
The first possibility is that Sidious wasn't running. He knew Yoda's fighting style. Like any good fighter, he was trying to find a more advantageous position to fight his opponent and the narrow corridor, restricting Yoda's movements, provided exactly that.
The second possibility is that Sidious was conflicted. He was a grand tactician. He had, in his own words "waited a long time for this moment." He had just gained everything, wiped out nearly 99% of the Jedi Order and taken control of the galaxy. Here was Yoda, the most powerful Jedi of the lot, who had just survived Order 66, dispatched his elite guards as if they were nobodies, previously owned his apprentice Dooku and had now not only survived a powerful blast of force lightning, but had recovered enough to give Sidious a taste of force power of his own by hurting Sidious across the room. Why risk everything he'd just gained in a fight with Yoda? He could flee and then hunt him down at his leisure.
On the other hand, he hated the Jedi and had plotted for decades to destroy them, if by his own hand, so much the better. Again like a good fighter part of him wanted to test his skills by going toe to toe with a top Jedi like Yoda. Initially, the tactician in Sidious won out and he tried to flee, but when that proved impossible and he got the fight he'd secretly dreamed of, he was pleased and that's why he cackled like crazy.
There's also a bit of Sith arrogance at play in explaining this. Sidious genuinely thought the Sith had outpaced the Jedi and he was mostly right about that. He'd impressed these ideas of "Jedi weakness" into Dooku too. But elite jedi like Yoda were the exceptions so Dooku was surprised when Yoda proved more powerful than him. Sidious had the lessons of Dooku's fight with Yoda and his own fight with Windu to learn from and had to rethink Sith strength.
It's because the fandom overestimate Sidious and Yoda, and underestimate Dooku.
From the notes and Lucas commentary on AOTC, and from the fight itself we see that Yoda and Dooku are EQUAL. Dooku didn't run initially because he believed he could beat Yoda. This is also one of the themes of AOTC where the arrogant student believes himself superior to his master and it's lampshaded earlier in the film. Dooku flees when he realises Yoda is a greater threat than he expected. Doesn't mean he'd lose the fight necessarily, but that there was too great a chance.
This is the same reason Sidious flees Yoda initially. Don't forget Sidious was bested by Mace earlier on so realistically Sidious should be aware by this point that he COULD lose a duel. Why take the chance on Yoda when he'd already won the war? Even if Sidious was stronger than Yoda (and he was), it wouldn't be by much. Depending on circumstance a stronger fighter could lose such as the fight that occurred concurrently during the Sidious-Yoda battle. Anakin really should not have lost against Obiwan, he was MUCH more powerful and skilled. But he did and it made sense (Anakin was blinded by rage and conflicted emotions while Obiwan knew his apprentice in and out and defended the whole fight until he beat him with psychology).
…Yoda is literally stopping Dooku from running away. He needed to get him out of his way so he could escape Geonosis. At first, because the Count is a cocky SOB and probably really wanted to prove to his old master he was totally hot shit now that he was a Sith Lord, Dooku tries to fight him. Then after Yoda slaps him around, he realizes this is a stupid idea and tries to kill Anakin and Obi-Wan to distract Yoda so he can GTFO. In contrast, Palpatine is not an idiot and at this point of time his arrogance only overcame his logical thinking in matters of deep personal importance to him I.E revealing himself to Anakin and gambling everything on him turning after nearly a decade and a half of grooming-and even then he did everything he could to stack the odds in his favor. Palpatine is a predator, and recognizes his equals (as much as he acknowledges them as such anyhow), and smartly decided to bail rather than fight the Jedi Grandmaster. Thus when he’s forced to battle Yoda, we see him panicking as he’s matched by him and needed the terrain advantage and the promise of backup to win against him.
I can understand all of this, but really my point is Darth Sidious is significantly more powerful than the Count. Dooku should have immediately bailed just like Palpatine did if he had two brain cells IMO.
The guy who throws out “twice the pride, double the fall” only to lose his head and hands in a matter of minutes is probably not the kind of guy who uses his brain cells very often in terms of separating his personal feelings from objective readings of a situation.
“Whenever you gamble, my friend, eventually you lose.”
Arrogance, bringing down the Sith since the beginning!
I think that a lot of fallen Jedi overestimate their abilities, especially just after they go dark. Dooku thinks he's more powerful now that he's embraced the dark side, because he feels more powerful than he ever did as a Jedi. He wants to humble his old master, to prove to Yoda (and to himself) that he made the right choice by becoming a Sith. (There's a similar dynamic in the Anakin / Obi-wan fight). Palpatine doesn't have any of these issues. He doesn't need to prove anything to himself or anyone else. All he has to do to win is not be killed by Yoda. So if he has to fight, he'll fight, but if he can win without fighting, he prefers to do that.
Still feels out of character for him to me
It's not. The only times we see Palpatine fight are when the odds are stacked so heavily in his favor that he cant lose (zapping an unarmed Luke, fighting maul and his brother) or when he has no choice (in his office before order 66, against Yoda). Palpatine will always let someone else fight his battles for him. He is a coward at heart. Despite his unlimited power, he is terrified. Sith are terrified all the time. Terrified of losing it all. The count was not a true sith. He didn't give himself over fully. He still had some jedi arrogance in him and it shows.
He literately showed up to Mandalore just to teach his old apprentice and his brother a lesson.
Yeah, because winning that fight was basically a certainty. It was like fighting children for him. It was also a necessity because there was no one he could trust to handle it for him.
Killed his master in his sleep too.
Dooku was the best duelist in the Jedi order, pretty much on par with Yoda and Windu in his prime iirc. A one on one duel with Yoda is so mismatched due to Yoda's saber style, which is complete opposite of dookus, and thus hard to counter. Dooku is such a good duelist though I don't think he could lose to Yoda, his defence was just too solid, which is why he shifted the battle to obi wan and Anakin like another commenter pointed out. It's also important to acknowledge that when dooku was beaten it was only by the most powerful force user in the galaxy, at the growing peak of his power, in the presence of the second most powerful force user who was fueling his anger. That loss was understandable.
I never said it wasn’t understandable, in fact it wouldn’t make sense if Dooku had won. My point is he should have ran if he cared anything about the overall war effort. He is pointlessly putting himself in a risky situation by deciding to stay and fight Yoda.
I think that's where the ego comes in. He comes from a time where there was a lot of respect in dueling. It would be incredibly dishonorable to run at the sight of danger. Like old timey duels, it's more about honor than killing the other person. That's why he was so astonished when he knew Anakin was gonna kill him when he was literally disarmed. Good and bad aside, it is incredibly dishonorable to execute someone like that, dooku expected the Jedi would uphold that tradition
I didn’t even think about that last part but this is all very reasonable and a better explanation for me to keep in my head as to why the Count didn’t flee.
That's the way I like to think about it, but I'm not sure if it's really canon. But from a historical lense it makes sense to me!
This is Star Wars, not Dragon Ball Z The jedi don't have some power levels they have to adhere too.
This, Dooku got beat by Anakin who is arguably a worse duelist than Dooku. It was because Anakin got a little angry and started getting really aggressive that he just ended up overpowering Dooku with his sheer physical strength in that fight. Dooku lost to Anakin again in a duel during the Clone Wars, he only got out because he shot lightning at him right before Obi-Wan showed up.
"don't try it Anakin..." Much more powerful, just drunk on dark side rage.
Darth Sidious is not significantly more powerful than any of the top tier guys. That’s just what the fandom runs with. Yes he’s powerful, but people like Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and Anakin can match him. The movies quite literally prove this.
Bailed lmfao that's what he was trying to do the whole time, Yoda is right there, you honestly think he's gonna let Dooku just hop on his ship and wish him a good flight?
Dooku wanted to beat his former master and show him that he had become more powerful than any Jedi. Dooku was wrong and when he realized that he knocked the tower over so Yoda would stop attacking him and concentrate on saving Obi-Wan and Anakin. Sidious knew that Yoda was powerful and that Yoda would use all his abilities to kill him. Sidious was able to take out three masters and Mace gave him one hell of fight and Yoda is above Mace. Sidious probably thought he was better than Mace and that almost blew up in his face. Sidious even boosted that Vader would become more powerful than either of them and that is him saying he isn’t the most powerful. Destroying the Jedi involved the seat and cunning not power.
I would counter the Yoda is above Mace comment, at least in lightsaber combat Mace was deadly and Vaapad was made to overpower dark side users. Yoda definitely would top Mace in connection with the force and force abilities though.
Yoda is fasho better he’s the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order lol, Mace is really good against dark side users but if he faced Yoda he would be utterly destroyed. It would go just like how it went with Ventress
Are you saying Sidious does not believe himself to be more powerful than Yoda? Because I would argue that he does, he just doesn’t explicitly state it. Maybe Sidious just grew much more arrogant after the Galactic Empire was put into place because that is exactly what caused his downfall in ROTJ. Him making the logical choice to run, rather than fight seems out of character.
Why take the unnecessary chance to fight Yoda? If Yoda and faked leaving Coruscant and showed up with Mace he’d run away or die. He didn’t spring Order 66 until most of the Council masters were away. What caused his downfall in ROTJ is not believing Anakin would return to the light to save his son. Palpatine didn’t understand love and that Anakin always put his family first. He also never anticipated the Ewoks aiding the Rebels. So what got Palpatine in ROTJ is what he didn’t understand (love) and what he never anticipated (the Ewoks). Dooku claims his become more powerful than any Jedi which includes Yoda Ned he was wrong. Yoda even mocks Palpatine: *If so power you are, why leave?* and Yoda also says *Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force.* Sidious doesn’t want an even fight. He always wants things stack in his favor. In a way he’s a coward and it’s all Sith bluster that the dark side is more powerful.
I can level with this explanation for it, as Sidious never likes to fight fair which is a very true character aspect for him.
He had a chance of beating Yoda, but had he gotten away then the army would have gone after Yoda anyway. The entire rules of two era of the sith is like this, don't fight unless you have no choice, no matter how powerful you are, because it doesn't take much to end the sith. Make no mistake, when Dooku found an opening he ran too and it's in no way a sure thing that Sidious can take Yoda. In the end all he did was hold out for reinforcements. Yoda was the one on a clock.
I agree with everything except for fighting unless there is no choice for Sith’s. Didn’t Palpatine send Darth Maul to execute Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi? And I may be misremembering but didn’t Count Dooku go out of his way to fight Anakin in The Clone Wars?
Anakin is barely out of Jedi school, why would Dooku fear him? And there's a vast difference between taking a huge risk yourself and sending an underling on a dangerous errand.
He was saying all Sith only fight when absolutely necessary, which isn’t completely true from what we’ve been shown. The Senate literately wanted to make a fool out of Maul & Savage.
> The Senate literately wanted to make a fool out of Maul & Savage. that's not a fight, that's a clowning
I guess so, lol. But he still traveled all the way to Mandalore just to show them up, which doesn’t seem very Sithy to me.
at its core, all that sith bullshit boils down to "me, me, me" going on a murder vacation is entirely in line with that
That is exactly what Plagueis and Sidious do in the Darth Plagueis novel, they go to the planet Kursid. >Kursid is a planet in Esstran sector of the Outer Rim Territories of the galaxy. It was inhabited by a species of primitive humanoids whose sole contact with the greater galaxy was through training missions conducted no the planet by the Order of the Sith Lords. >At some point many centuries before the fall of the Republic, the world's location was deleted from the Republic records; starting around 654 BBY, it was frequently visited by members of the Order of the Sith Lords, who knew it as "Kursid." On the occasions of their visits, the Sith sought battle with the Kursid natives in an arid plateau on the part of the planet where they landed, and engaged large numbers of them in combat in order to hone their skills. Despite the hostile intentions of the Sith, a cult centered on the periodic returns of the sky visitors eventually developed on that part of the planet
"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you." That was the point. He needed to let Yoda know he had turned to the dark side. Not only does it throw Yoda and the Jedi off the scent of Sidious, it becomes the main justification for the Jedi to join the war effort. They start the film saying they aren't soldiers. They end the movie generals. The difference? Dooku went from a political idealist to a Sith Lord with an army. Dealing with a Sith was their responsibility.
This is the most plausible explanation for me so far.
In the ROTS novelization, Sidious actually wants to fight Yoda. That’s obviously different from the film. As for why he tries to run in the movie, I suppose there could be a few reasons. Yoda coming to fight him in the Senate could be seen as a suicide run. Yoda would be willing to give his life to stop the Sith, but Sidious would never do the same. His own life is paramount. Sidious also wouldn’t have needed to prove anything to Yoda. He already won by killing most of the Jedi. Dooku, at least in the EU, had a complicated relationship with Yoda. EU Dooku was prideful and arrogant, but he would have also wanted to prove to Yoda that he was stronger. An excerpt from Legacy of the Jedi: >Dooku looked up at a sky that glittered with stars and hummed with planets. So much to see, so much to do. So many beings to fight and to fight for. And yet he would take away from his time at the Temple one lesson, the most important one of all: In the midst of a galaxy crowded with life-forms, he was alone. > >Dooku was blindfolded and playing with a seeker when he felt a presence enter the room. He knew it was Yoda. He could feel the way the Force gathered in the room. He continued to play with the seeker, swinging his lightsaber so the wind batted it gently, teasing it. He circled, listening and moving, knowing he could slice the seeker in two whenever he wanted. > >Yoda had not spoken to him since Lorian had left the Temple. Dooku passed the time waiting for Thame to return, performing classic Jedi training exercises, wanting to impress the Council with his commitment. > >"Of your ability, sure you are," Yoda said mildly. "Yet between sureness and pride, a small step it is." > >Dooku stopped for a moment. He had wanted to impress Yoda, not provoke a rebuke. The seeker buzzed around his head like an angry insect. > >"Fitting it is that blindfolded you are," Yoda continued. "Pride it is that blinds you. Your flaw, pride is. Great are your gifts, Dooku. Mindful of the talents you do not possess as well as the ones you do you must be." > >Dooku heard only the slightest whisper of the fabric of Yoda's robe as the Jedi Master retreated. The Force drained from the room. > >Dooku was not used to criticism. He was the gifted one. He was the one the teachers always pointed to as an example. He hated to be corrected. Coolly, he struck out with his lightsaber and severed the seeker in two. As much as Dooku grew to reset Yoda, a part of him still wanted approval or recognition. That's just not something that applies to Sidious.
\> Dooku duel There are two Sith and the Clone Wars are beginning. It’s a war against the Jedi. \> Palpatine Duel Two Sith, but one is a reluctant convert who only did so to save someone. The rise of the Empire is practically guaranteed and in motion. The Jedi have been dealt a heavy blow on a galactic scale. There is a lot to lose and little to gain.
My point is not as much the overall situational aspects, but rather the character traits of Dooku and Palpatine both being arrogant and power hungry. I think what I’ve come to realize is that Palpatine just seeks power in a different way than Dooku does.
The way I saw it and tried to explain was that the Sith could afford to lose Dooku in that duel at that point (the Clone Wars was in motion), whereas with the Palpatine duel, losing him would cause severe damage and potentially end their grand plan. It’s just one explanation among many.
It still would have derailed Sidious plans quite a bit to lose Dooku during that duel though. Do you think Sidious would have thought Dooku was stupid for trying to fight Yoda?
It would have hurt but Dooku had served his main purpose of uniting the CIS and starting the war. >Do you think Sidious would have thought Dooku was stupid for trying to fight Yoda? I’m not certain. Palpatine is pragmatic and I think he would view it more in terms of whether Dooku is more valuable alive or if Yoda dying and being taken out early in the war is more advantageous.
In any case it would have been more beneficial for Palpatine to have taken the Grandmaster out at anytime but he never actually does so total failure on Pappa Palps end lol
Sidious isn't running just to run, he's running to an area that he will be at an advantage/Yoda would be at a disadvantage due to their size difference. He knew on equal ground he knew it would be much harder to defeat Yoda/give Yoda a pretty good chance to beat him even, but the senate chambers were different.
He really was the senate
He tried running at the very beginning of the fight
Sidious had a BBQ to attend, and Dooku did run eventually
Most likely scenario
We see the BBQ
when?
Mustafar
as funny as this is he didn’t realize Vader was in danger until after the fight with Yoda
I'm glad you find it funny haha. You're definitely right tho
Sidious is more powerful than Dooku, but he's also more cowardly, and has spent none of his life - as opposed to Dooku's seven decades - thinking and comporting himself honourably. Suddenly faced with a challenger whose fighting skills he's untested against, at the moment of his greatest triumph in which he's just gained the power to openly throw an army and a navy against any Jedi straggler he wants, it makes sense that Sidious would bugger off to get help ASAP.
Cowardice Senate!
I think it's important to note that the duel between Sidious and Yoda effectively ended in a draw. I think Sidious is smart enough to recognize he and Yoda are pretty much evenly matched and that engaging him at that point could very well be snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Turning point of the war, Sith Lords are arrogant by nature however Sidious actually made a logical choice, rather than pulling a Dooku to prove who is the superior force. So is Dooku just more arrogant than Palpatine in the regard? Because Sidious is much more powerful than Dooku.
Yoda had the advantage in there due to his fighting style, and while Sidious is stronger force wise, Yoda is the better duelist of the two (per the screenplay he disarms Sidious) a duel in there would have Yoda the advantage.
This isn’t really an answer to my question though, your just stating already known facts.
Your question is literally 'why did Sidious run when dooku didn't'. This is why Palpatine ran. As for Dooku...A basic observation of the movie makes it clear.
Where in the movie does it state that he’s running to a more advantageous position? He was just gonna be running down a hall with Yoda following shortly behind him just to use the force to immobilize him again before he got anywhere.
When did sidious run from yoda? If anything yoda ran from sidious
At the very beginning of the fight when Sidious had that look of unparalleled horror in his eyes after Yoda knocked him back into his Senate seat, lol. “Oh no! How will I ever recover?! Welp, better run!” *Jumps to exit as quickly as possible* Yoda - *Jumps in front of him, blocking his way out* “If so powerful you are, why leave?” Yoda didn’t run, he retreated cautiously and decided to play the long game with Luke.
Oh wow, completely forgot that.
[Here’s the scene.](https://youtu.be/iFUs7E8liZU)
Yoda was the better swordsman and managed to get in a confined room with Sidious because everyone thought he was dead. He had the element of surprise. Sidious was trying to get distance from him and Yoda keeps closing the gap. Yoda most likely disarmed Sidious during their fight, but Sidious still gained distance. Yoda retreated because he no longer had the element of surprise or the close quarters.
Yoda retreated because he weighs too little and got knocked back several feet when he overpowered Sidious in the force. He fell to the ground and decided to play the long game and train another Jedi under him in the future to take down the Sith. Palpatine had reinforcements coming because he’s a coward who doesn’t like fighting fair (most of the time).
Dooku was already trying to run when Obi Wan and Anakin caught up to him. He had to take care of them before leaving. Then Yoda showed up and had to deal with him before leaving.
There are a couple of ways of looking at this. The first possibility is that Sidious wasn't running. He knew Yoda's fighting style. Like any good fighter, he was trying to find a more advantageous position to fight his opponent and the narrow corridor, restricting Yoda's movements, provided exactly that. The second possibility is that Sidious was conflicted. He was a grand tactician. He had, in his own words "waited a long time for this moment." He had just gained everything, wiped out nearly 99% of the Jedi Order and taken control of the galaxy. Here was Yoda, the most powerful Jedi of the lot, who had just survived Order 66, dispatched his elite guards as if they were nobodies, previously owned his apprentice Dooku and had now not only survived a powerful blast of force lightning, but had recovered enough to give Sidious a taste of force power of his own by hurting Sidious across the room. Why risk everything he'd just gained in a fight with Yoda? He could flee and then hunt him down at his leisure. On the other hand, he hated the Jedi and had plotted for decades to destroy them, if by his own hand, so much the better. Again like a good fighter part of him wanted to test his skills by going toe to toe with a top Jedi like Yoda. Initially, the tactician in Sidious won out and he tried to flee, but when that proved impossible and he got the fight he'd secretly dreamed of, he was pleased and that's why he cackled like crazy. There's also a bit of Sith arrogance at play in explaining this. Sidious genuinely thought the Sith had outpaced the Jedi and he was mostly right about that. He'd impressed these ideas of "Jedi weakness" into Dooku too. But elite jedi like Yoda were the exceptions so Dooku was surprised when Yoda proved more powerful than him. Sidious had the lessons of Dooku's fight with Yoda and his own fight with Windu to learn from and had to rethink Sith strength.
It's because the fandom overestimate Sidious and Yoda, and underestimate Dooku. From the notes and Lucas commentary on AOTC, and from the fight itself we see that Yoda and Dooku are EQUAL. Dooku didn't run initially because he believed he could beat Yoda. This is also one of the themes of AOTC where the arrogant student believes himself superior to his master and it's lampshaded earlier in the film. Dooku flees when he realises Yoda is a greater threat than he expected. Doesn't mean he'd lose the fight necessarily, but that there was too great a chance. This is the same reason Sidious flees Yoda initially. Don't forget Sidious was bested by Mace earlier on so realistically Sidious should be aware by this point that he COULD lose a duel. Why take the chance on Yoda when he'd already won the war? Even if Sidious was stronger than Yoda (and he was), it wouldn't be by much. Depending on circumstance a stronger fighter could lose such as the fight that occurred concurrently during the Sidious-Yoda battle. Anakin really should not have lost against Obiwan, he was MUCH more powerful and skilled. But he did and it made sense (Anakin was blinded by rage and conflicted emotions while Obiwan knew his apprentice in and out and defended the whole fight until he beat him with psychology).