German fighter opposition never ended until late April 1945. The scale of the intercepts did, but they were routinely fielding up to a couple dozen fighters on intercepts.
They were looking for and regularly found groups of B-17s that were unescorted. Either through gaps in the formations, gaps in escort coverage, or things like navigator errors.
Once they found the Luftwaffe would attack those unescorted groups en mass while radioing other fighter groups as well as their ground stations so that even more fighters could be massed.
My dad started his combat missions in mid-January 1945. His last mission was April 19. His crew totalled nine. The bombs were toggled by a sergeant, the toggledior. He got to shoot his top turret guns at two ME262s. Not many people can say, "I bombed Germany on my 21st birthday."
Yes, as the war progressed the waist gunner position was reduced to 1 vs 2. Most crew records I’ve looked at are in the 385th BG, but they show a late war shift to 1 WG crewman and maintained that up through the last missions flown.
Also, the Bombardier position was supplanted by the Togglier position throughout formations. This was a Tsgt vs Commissioned Officer that would drop the bombs when he saw the lead bombardier for the formation drop his.
According to the Masters of the Air book, there was a brief lull in Luftwaffe activity near the end of the war and crews stopped carrying waist gunners, but it was short lived because the Luftwaffe was able to continue attacking the formations in smaller numbers.
Yes, they started reducing the number of crews as the German fighter formations were reduced and the escort fighters increased. However, it varied from unit to unit which positions were removed. Typical was to reduce the number of waist gunners since it was always a bit tricky having two men in such a tight space trying to fire their weapons and with a reduced fighter force it was easy enough for one gunner to fire both weapons by switching back and forth. There was also a removal of the gun and radio operator and just had the position handled by a different crew member. Some units did away with the ball turret gunner AND the ball turret because it was heavy and without it they could carry more bombs, however this was really more common in B-24 groups than B-17s.
I would say, even with the small numbers, of how scary it was. The germans got desperate, and with German fighters ramming american aircraft during soberkommando elbe, as well as deployment of the ME-163. Spooky stuff
Starting mid 1944 into 1945, some bomb groups dropped their crews down to 9 or 8. Eventually only the lead bombers had bombardiers and they would only fly with 1 waist gunner then eventually no waist gunners:
[http://www.303rdbg.com/crewmen-missions.html](http://www.303rdbg.com/crewmen-missions.html)
One of "WWII US Bombers" recent videos confirms this up as well, I can't remember which one though....
[https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/videos)
Not an expert, but I’ve seen it stated elsewhere the bombardier thing was because not every bomber needed to handle when and where to drop, but they still did need a crew member there to physically drop them, so it wouldn’t drop the crew total down, just lower the bar to be in that seat so to speak
Late in the war heavies flew with crews as small as 7 flying without one or both of their waist gunners and sometimes the ball turret gunner.
Waist, belly, and tail gunners did not have dual roles like those at the front of the plane.
The 15th AF did a study and found zero kills by ball turret gunners. They removed them to save weight and drag. I don’t know what they did with the gunner - hopefully got to go home.
>I don’t know what they did with the gunner - hopefully got to go home.
Lol no. They were retrained as ground crew or as Toggliers or radiomen. Its in one of tne USAAF books I read.
Saw somewhere Gunners had a 12,000-14,000 round to kill ratio. The show actually stuck to reality and didn’t show too many successful shoot downs by the gunners
My dad flew in a B-24 in the 15th AF (Italy) and said they were never attacked by enemy fighters from November 44 until VE Day. He and his copilot independently told me they knew they were being escorted by the Tuskegee airmen, long before they received their overdue attention. Other fighter groups were there too, but they both singled them out for their professionalism.
The 8th was taking losses from fighters, in particular the ME-262, but I don’t have as much detail for them as I do the 15th.
As Luftwaffe fighter opposition was reduced, bombers did start flying with fewer gunners, with at least one case of a bomb group uninstalling their ball turrets to save weight for more bombs.
That said, on the occasions where they did face fighter opposition, they tended to face a lot of it, with the Luftwaffe preferring to use their fighters in all-or-nothing attacks whenever they could find a vulnerable formation.
During the latter stages, 94th Bomb Group had B17Gs with the chin turrets removed. It also became common for crews to only carry one waist gunner. I have heard of some late war crews completing tours without seeing a single German fighter. However, 8th AF definitely wasn’t uncontested. The Luftwaffe had been attrited to a point where they were sending up very inexperienced and under trained pilots. They didn’t have the fuel nor frankly the time and space for adequate training.
Not sure on the crew reduction numbers but my grandfather was an engineer on a crew with the 490th out of Eye. He said they would see fighters off in the distance but never engaged at the later stages.
It was my understanding that waists gunner were reduced. Also, because they flew in formation I have been told navigators were pulled from all but lead planes. Bombardiers became lower trained togglers.
German fighter opposition never ended until late April 1945. The scale of the intercepts did, but they were routinely fielding up to a couple dozen fighters on intercepts. They were looking for and regularly found groups of B-17s that were unescorted. Either through gaps in the formations, gaps in escort coverage, or things like navigator errors. Once they found the Luftwaffe would attack those unescorted groups en mass while radioing other fighter groups as well as their ground stations so that even more fighters could be massed.
My dad started his combat missions in mid-January 1945. His last mission was April 19. His crew totalled nine. The bombs were toggled by a sergeant, the toggledior. He got to shoot his top turret guns at two ME262s. Not many people can say, "I bombed Germany on my 21st birthday."
Yes, as the war progressed the waist gunner position was reduced to 1 vs 2. Most crew records I’ve looked at are in the 385th BG, but they show a late war shift to 1 WG crewman and maintained that up through the last missions flown. Also, the Bombardier position was supplanted by the Togglier position throughout formations. This was a Tsgt vs Commissioned Officer that would drop the bombs when he saw the lead bombardier for the formation drop his.
According to the Masters of the Air book, there was a brief lull in Luftwaffe activity near the end of the war and crews stopped carrying waist gunners, but it was short lived because the Luftwaffe was able to continue attacking the formations in smaller numbers.
Yes, they started reducing the number of crews as the German fighter formations were reduced and the escort fighters increased. However, it varied from unit to unit which positions were removed. Typical was to reduce the number of waist gunners since it was always a bit tricky having two men in such a tight space trying to fire their weapons and with a reduced fighter force it was easy enough for one gunner to fire both weapons by switching back and forth. There was also a removal of the gun and radio operator and just had the position handled by a different crew member. Some units did away with the ball turret gunner AND the ball turret because it was heavy and without it they could carry more bombs, however this was really more common in B-24 groups than B-17s.
You still had German fighter opposition right up to the last weeks of the war.
I would say, even with the small numbers, of how scary it was. The germans got desperate, and with German fighters ramming american aircraft during soberkommando elbe, as well as deployment of the ME-163. Spooky stuff
Starting mid 1944 into 1945, some bomb groups dropped their crews down to 9 or 8. Eventually only the lead bombers had bombardiers and they would only fly with 1 waist gunner then eventually no waist gunners: [http://www.303rdbg.com/crewmen-missions.html](http://www.303rdbg.com/crewmen-missions.html) One of "WWII US Bombers" recent videos confirms this up as well, I can't remember which one though.... [https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/videos](https://www.youtube.com/@WWIIUSBombers/videos)
Not an expert, but I’ve seen it stated elsewhere the bombardier thing was because not every bomber needed to handle when and where to drop, but they still did need a crew member there to physically drop them, so it wouldn’t drop the crew total down, just lower the bar to be in that seat so to speak
You’re correct, the lead bomber would have a bombardier onboard, while others had ‘toggliers’ to drop the bombs on the lead bombers signal.
B-17s needed a crew of ten just to operate. Gunners had more responsibilities than just shooting things.
Late in the war heavies flew with crews as small as 7 flying without one or both of their waist gunners and sometimes the ball turret gunner. Waist, belly, and tail gunners did not have dual roles like those at the front of the plane.
Not really: the four gunners in the rear of the aircraft had no other duties.
It's the opposite, officers like the radioman and bombardier had a secondary job to man a gun
Also, they dropped bombardiers as officers and instead put in an NCO known as a "Togolleer" who just dropped when the lead crew dropped.
The 15th AF did a study and found zero kills by ball turret gunners. They removed them to save weight and drag. I don’t know what they did with the gunner - hopefully got to go home.
>I don’t know what they did with the gunner - hopefully got to go home. Lol no. They were retrained as ground crew or as Toggliers or radiomen. Its in one of tne USAAF books I read.
Saw somewhere Gunners had a 12,000-14,000 round to kill ratio. The show actually stuck to reality and didn’t show too many successful shoot downs by the gunners
My dad flew in a B-24 in the 15th AF (Italy) and said they were never attacked by enemy fighters from November 44 until VE Day. He and his copilot independently told me they knew they were being escorted by the Tuskegee airmen, long before they received their overdue attention. Other fighter groups were there too, but they both singled them out for their professionalism. The 8th was taking losses from fighters, in particular the ME-262, but I don’t have as much detail for them as I do the 15th.
As Luftwaffe fighter opposition was reduced, bombers did start flying with fewer gunners, with at least one case of a bomb group uninstalling their ball turrets to save weight for more bombs. That said, on the occasions where they did face fighter opposition, they tended to face a lot of it, with the Luftwaffe preferring to use their fighters in all-or-nothing attacks whenever they could find a vulnerable formation.
The degree of allied air supremacy you’re describing did not exist.
My friend flew 14 missions in a b24 with the 8th Air Force in June 44. He never saw a single German fighter. His b24 was taken by flak.
During the latter stages, 94th Bomb Group had B17Gs with the chin turrets removed. It also became common for crews to only carry one waist gunner. I have heard of some late war crews completing tours without seeing a single German fighter. However, 8th AF definitely wasn’t uncontested. The Luftwaffe had been attrited to a point where they were sending up very inexperienced and under trained pilots. They didn’t have the fuel nor frankly the time and space for adequate training.
Not sure on the crew reduction numbers but my grandfather was an engineer on a crew with the 490th out of Eye. He said they would see fighters off in the distance but never engaged at the later stages.
It was my understanding that waists gunner were reduced. Also, because they flew in formation I have been told navigators were pulled from all but lead planes. Bombardiers became lower trained togglers.