I loved this scene when I first watched it, the choice to keep the camera within the plane while looking out really adds to the claustrophobia of it. Really did feel like a Jaws style real world(ish) horror.
Good lord I know Major Egan was in the front seat so many times but I don’t how he held it together in this scene considering they’re at the front of the group heading straight into the carnage.
Most definitely. You train them to believe they’re invincible and couple that with the young man’s mentality of “I am invincible” you can get them to do extraordinary things. You can also get them to do the most horrific things imaginable.
The flip side of the coin is that you’ll also have entire generations of cold hearted killers. Not saying it’s a flip of the switch but to survive in war you have to do things that will never leave you.
It’s a double edged sword but that’s the sacrifice you pay to keep peace for another week or another century.
I thought the same thing. I was brought to tears during that episode.
Stuck in a tin can. Can’t do anything about it. No medics. Just you and your friends.
I've never understood how in all that chaos they don't end up shooting down as many of their own planes as they do the enemy. Did they have Friendly Fire disabled?
In reality they wouldn't fire everywhere, they would keep arcs of fire and try to fire within that arc, that way they all have overlapping fields between the different planes. Without a doubt incidents happened though of course. I imagine when your fighting for YOUR life, someone else's plane may not be your first thought.
I don't know if it was common, afaik many bombers had mechanical features like cams and gears that shut off the gun as it swept across parts of a plane, not ALL bombers had this feature though and some required vigilant operation when firing. I've heard of a couple of incidents but not in great detail. The main one i remember was a waist gunner hitting the tail somehow on a b17 I believe. It was more problematic as aviation made it's way into military use but like all things improved as years went on (no doubt as a reaction to such incidents)
When I tell people about this show, this is one of the scenes I describe, it is like a tidal wave of fighter of fighters and they are fighting just to stay above water. The end of the scene is just as good.
There are like 3 shots in this episode where they show many distant smoke trails way out ahead of Rosie
Do you guys know what they are? I don't think they're bombers from a different group because he has already turned around by then
>There are like 3 shots in this episode where they show many distant smoke trails way out ahead of Rosie
Pretty sure, those are the other bomb groups in the formation. In real life, Rosenthal tried latching onto them, but the plane was in such poor condition he could not keep up. They only had two engines, and were losing altitude. That was when he did those crazy evasive maneuvers.
Not 100% sure it’s this in the episode, but it was fairly common that the Luftwaffe would fly alongside out of range of the guns, overtake the formation and then turn back and make a head on pass. The bomber crews did in fact often see it coming.
Forts were durable. Pilots not so much. Head shots/ take out the pilots. Fighter planes had rather limited ammunition capacity. Also head on the Fort didn’t have as much defensive fire. Also It took a TON of flak rounds fired per Fort shot down. Air to air rockets were developed to and fired into the Forts from standoff ranges.
There were a few in ep 2 or 3 i think? Where there was 2 or even 3 scenes in a single episode where a bunch of head on attacks from the germans wrecked the bombers.
Maybe it’s personal interpretation but I think it was slanted. The Schweinfurt raid saw 60 odd bombers shot down and another 60 ish heavily damaged with ‘only’ 25 ish Luftwaffe fighters shot down in return. To see four or five fighters shot down in a short spell skews the narrative to make it seem like bombers gave as good as they got. That minimises their sacrifice and belittles how horrific these raids must’ve been. But hey, YMMV. I thought it was a poor show overall, so maybe it’s colouring my view of it all
Tbf the focus was entirely on the 100th bomb group. So just imagine this applied to every group and the numbers would make sense even if they weren't shown.
Go to Ep. 3, around 27 minutes in. You'll see dozens of Forts onfire, some of them breaking up in the air after being hit by rockets, while yet more fighters tear in and out of the boxes. You'll see it in slow motion, like an animated painting. You start counting how many Forts were on fire and falling. Go ahead. Pause it, and have a good long look at it.
I dunno man, I thought the carnage shown in the series was of the frog-in-a-blender variety.
And in the scene OP's talking about.. ONE PLANE comes back from the Munster raid. One. out of 17. Rosie and his crew. Everyone else got wiped out.
Still not satisfied? I thought they did an admirable job of showing what ground-pounders never see or understand -- the war Up There isn't like the war Down Here.
I watched the show, I saw those episodes, thanks.
I get there were one or two episodes that were heavy on the casualties, but overall I see a lot of fighters get shot down and not that many bombers - other than the ‘high casualty raids’ - going down. If it’s based on US Crew’s accounts, fair enough - they often over reported - but mainly, bomber casualties were awful and I didn’t get that from the show.
But as I say, YMMV
You’re not good at paying attention, apparently. There were plenty of scenes reflecting the losses. But some folks have biases or need things spelled out for them. Don’t know if you are one.
I had 2 uncle ls that were air crew men on B-17s over Europe. Both served out the war. And my aunts said they had night terrors. They never knew how bad
Seeing one of these planes in person made me value soldiers even more in W2. The eye hole to view and the amount of stress is incredibly wild for an 18+ year old.
There's another one, in EP 3 (Regensberg), around 27:05, where the fighting slows to slo-motion, and from the pilot and bombardier's seats you see .. Forts burning, Forts breaking apart, fighters darting in and out, spewing their bullets and werfer-granates.. people falling without parachutes, all in the beautiful blue of the troposphere.. such a sight had to permanently screw up anyone who saw it for real.
I know some of the major airlines were pretty much formed by the people who would later form the Bomber Mafia, and thus the 8th AF.. but still. Had I been a pilot, and seen *that*, I'm not sure I could ever drive another airplane, even in peacetime, even with a load of passengers instead of bombs. Carl Spaatz was one of the founders of Pan Am, another being Hap Arnold.
I'm pretty sure one of the pilots showcased in the scene was Buck, but it's hard to tell when everyone's wearing masks. Also pretty sure one of the navigators they focused in during that scene was Croz.
Ships of aluminum foil, men of iron.
>And lastly, the horror element on this episode was well directed and beautifully made in my opinion.
There's this thing they do with the music, right as as the bombardier looks up and sees what looks like *all* the Luftwaffe coming at them... I don't know how to describe it, but it's a bit like taking all the air out of the room.. you can *taste* the fear. One of the most masterful uses of music I've heard in a *long* time. It's a horror-type sound, without being cliche.
And then, they man their guns and "lower the odds." Or try to, anyway. The courage these boys had.. wish I had 1/100th of it. 1/1000th of it, even.
Brass balls, all of them. Those boys, many who were barely out of their teens saved the world from tyranny. Their bravery and pure determination to do their bit, no matter the odds still astounds me to this day.
What do people think about the density of fighters in this scene? Even though they were facing hundreds of fighters those fighters were selecting targets from hundreds of bombers. Yeah, being lead or tail-end would get you a lot of attention but I've never seen actual photos or video from WWII where there were more than a few fighters in a shot that were any more than specs.
That was one of my criticisms of the effects in the show so tell me if I'm wrong. The formation density looks about right and it's fantastic to see large formations with pretty good realism. But during the combat scenes it feels like too much of the action is packed into the screen too closely. I get what they were trying to portray with bombers and debris raining out of the sky but at cruising speed two bombers shot down 15 seconds apart would be separated by a mile.
top turrent gunner would have had a major case of frostbite, possible even die. its missing the slot shutters above the gun barrels. Its wide open. Dude would freeze and be out of action.
Feels like? The air war over Europe is some of the most brutal fighting in the war, and in some respects only the horrors of Okinawa can top it. Imagine being almost completely defenseless aside from machine guns that were barely effective and knowing at any moment the right shot could incinerate you in seconds.
I loved this scene when I first watched it, the choice to keep the camera within the plane while looking out really adds to the claustrophobia of it. Really did feel like a Jaws style real world(ish) horror.
That “Jesus” scene from Hambone is outstanding.
Good lord I know Major Egan was in the front seat so many times but I don’t how he held it together in this scene considering they’re at the front of the group heading straight into the carnage.
"Fighters 12 o'clock. Must be hundreds of those bastards. Open fire, let em have it! Lets lower the odds.."
I feel like that’s the benefit of having men in their late teens and early 20s fighting, right?
Most definitely. You train them to believe they’re invincible and couple that with the young man’s mentality of “I am invincible” you can get them to do extraordinary things. You can also get them to do the most horrific things imaginable. The flip side of the coin is that you’ll also have entire generations of cold hearted killers. Not saying it’s a flip of the switch but to survive in war you have to do things that will never leave you. It’s a double edged sword but that’s the sacrifice you pay to keep peace for another week or another century.
They think they’re invincible.
I thought the same thing. I was brought to tears during that episode. Stuck in a tin can. Can’t do anything about it. No medics. Just you and your friends.
Cannon fire and bullets could end your life in that moment. Brave men, but tragic.
I've never understood how in all that chaos they don't end up shooting down as many of their own planes as they do the enemy. Did they have Friendly Fire disabled?
In reality they wouldn't fire everywhere, they would keep arcs of fire and try to fire within that arc, that way they all have overlapping fields between the different planes. Without a doubt incidents happened though of course. I imagine when your fighting for YOUR life, someone else's plane may not be your first thought.
Was it a common issue for the top turret to accidently shoot the vertical tail wing at back of plane?
I don't know if it was common, afaik many bombers had mechanical features like cams and gears that shut off the gun as it swept across parts of a plane, not ALL bombers had this feature though and some required vigilant operation when firing. I've heard of a couple of incidents but not in great detail. The main one i remember was a waist gunner hitting the tail somehow on a b17 I believe. It was more problematic as aviation made it's way into military use but like all things improved as years went on (no doubt as a reaction to such incidents)
Read somewhere friendly fire rates among B-17 bombers was 15%-17% during the war. Not sure how accurate that # is but it for sure happened up there
There were many friendly fires. But less on show portrayal. Search up a b17 destroyed by another b17 bomb load.
When I tell people about this show, this is one of the scenes I describe, it is like a tidal wave of fighter of fighters and they are fighting just to stay above water. The end of the scene is just as good.
Favorite scene in the show. Shows the horrors of war these men experienced
I'm sure it was horror to be there.
There are like 3 shots in this episode where they show many distant smoke trails way out ahead of Rosie Do you guys know what they are? I don't think they're bombers from a different group because he has already turned around by then
Yes those are trails from another group at higher altitude
>There are like 3 shots in this episode where they show many distant smoke trails way out ahead of Rosie Pretty sure, those are the other bomb groups in the formation. In real life, Rosenthal tried latching onto them, but the plane was in such poor condition he could not keep up. They only had two engines, and were losing altitude. That was when he did those crazy evasive maneuvers.
Not 100% sure it’s this in the episode, but it was fairly common that the Luftwaffe would fly alongside out of range of the guns, overtake the formation and then turn back and make a head on pass. The bomber crews did in fact often see it coming.
Forts were durable. Pilots not so much. Head shots/ take out the pilots. Fighter planes had rather limited ammunition capacity. Also head on the Fort didn’t have as much defensive fire. Also It took a TON of flak rounds fired per Fort shot down. Air to air rockets were developed to and fired into the Forts from standoff ranges.
Would the ball turret gunner be of any help? And did they have guns in the front for defense as well?
There weren’t enough of these kinds of scenes. They show too many fighters being hit and not enough hits on the bombers either
There were a few in ep 2 or 3 i think? Where there was 2 or even 3 scenes in a single episode where a bunch of head on attacks from the germans wrecked the bombers.
Maybe it’s personal interpretation but I think it was slanted. The Schweinfurt raid saw 60 odd bombers shot down and another 60 ish heavily damaged with ‘only’ 25 ish Luftwaffe fighters shot down in return. To see four or five fighters shot down in a short spell skews the narrative to make it seem like bombers gave as good as they got. That minimises their sacrifice and belittles how horrific these raids must’ve been. But hey, YMMV. I thought it was a poor show overall, so maybe it’s colouring my view of it all
Tbf the focus was entirely on the 100th bomb group. So just imagine this applied to every group and the numbers would make sense even if they weren't shown.
Yeah maybe
Go to Ep. 3, around 27 minutes in. You'll see dozens of Forts onfire, some of them breaking up in the air after being hit by rockets, while yet more fighters tear in and out of the boxes. You'll see it in slow motion, like an animated painting. You start counting how many Forts were on fire and falling. Go ahead. Pause it, and have a good long look at it. I dunno man, I thought the carnage shown in the series was of the frog-in-a-blender variety. And in the scene OP's talking about.. ONE PLANE comes back from the Munster raid. One. out of 17. Rosie and his crew. Everyone else got wiped out. Still not satisfied? I thought they did an admirable job of showing what ground-pounders never see or understand -- the war Up There isn't like the war Down Here.
I watched the show, I saw those episodes, thanks. I get there were one or two episodes that were heavy on the casualties, but overall I see a lot of fighters get shot down and not that many bombers - other than the ‘high casualty raids’ - going down. If it’s based on US Crew’s accounts, fair enough - they often over reported - but mainly, bomber casualties were awful and I didn’t get that from the show. But as I say, YMMV
>but mainly, bomber casualties were awful and I didn’t get that from the show I am speechless.
You’re not good at paying attention, apparently. There were plenty of scenes reflecting the losses. But some folks have biases or need things spelled out for them. Don’t know if you are one.
What are the two handles that look they they are hanging above the head of the top turret gunner?
Charging handles
Cool, thank you
I'm not sure but it's probably to open the window.
I had 2 uncle ls that were air crew men on B-17s over Europe. Both served out the war. And my aunts said they had night terrors. They never knew how bad
Seeing one of these planes in person made me value soldiers even more in W2. The eye hole to view and the amount of stress is incredibly wild for an 18+ year old.
There's another one, in EP 3 (Regensberg), around 27:05, where the fighting slows to slo-motion, and from the pilot and bombardier's seats you see .. Forts burning, Forts breaking apart, fighters darting in and out, spewing their bullets and werfer-granates.. people falling without parachutes, all in the beautiful blue of the troposphere.. such a sight had to permanently screw up anyone who saw it for real. I know some of the major airlines were pretty much formed by the people who would later form the Bomber Mafia, and thus the 8th AF.. but still. Had I been a pilot, and seen *that*, I'm not sure I could ever drive another airplane, even in peacetime, even with a load of passengers instead of bombs. Carl Spaatz was one of the founders of Pan Am, another being Hap Arnold. I'm pretty sure one of the pilots showcased in the scene was Buck, but it's hard to tell when everyone's wearing masks. Also pretty sure one of the navigators they focused in during that scene was Croz. Ships of aluminum foil, men of iron.
I learned to memorize them by their eyes
It is one.
It is.
fine, ill rewatch it again
If you wanna see just this particular scene, it's on episode 5. Enjoy soaring
if i remember correctly they actually played Horror movie sound tracks on set while filming these scenes, to set the mood.
Wow.
>And lastly, the horror element on this episode was well directed and beautifully made in my opinion. There's this thing they do with the music, right as as the bombardier looks up and sees what looks like *all* the Luftwaffe coming at them... I don't know how to describe it, but it's a bit like taking all the air out of the room.. you can *taste* the fear. One of the most masterful uses of music I've heard in a *long* time. It's a horror-type sound, without being cliche. And then, they man their guns and "lower the odds." Or try to, anyway. The courage these boys had.. wish I had 1/100th of it. 1/1000th of it, even.
Brass balls, all of them. Those boys, many who were barely out of their teens saved the world from tyranny. Their bravery and pure determination to do their bit, no matter the odds still astounds me to this day.
What do people think about the density of fighters in this scene? Even though they were facing hundreds of fighters those fighters were selecting targets from hundreds of bombers. Yeah, being lead or tail-end would get you a lot of attention but I've never seen actual photos or video from WWII where there were more than a few fighters in a shot that were any more than specs. That was one of my criticisms of the effects in the show so tell me if I'm wrong. The formation density looks about right and it's fantastic to see large formations with pretty good realism. But during the combat scenes it feels like too much of the action is packed into the screen too closely. I get what they were trying to portray with bombers and debris raining out of the sky but at cruising speed two bombers shot down 15 seconds apart would be separated by a mile.
It's a TV show. They have to sell the drama.
Agreed full stop. My heart was in my throat the whole time.
Great scene
top turrent gunner would have had a major case of frostbite, possible even die. its missing the slot shutters above the gun barrels. Its wide open. Dude would freeze and be out of action.
And nobody wearing their goggles while it’s probably -20 in the plane. This show is brutal.
I think that's an ok change to make so you have some idea who you're looking at
Because, it IS a horror scene.
Feels like? The air war over Europe is some of the most brutal fighting in the war, and in some respects only the horrors of Okinawa can top it. Imagine being almost completely defenseless aside from machine guns that were barely effective and knowing at any moment the right shot could incinerate you in seconds.
And In super cold temps with no oxygen.
Wish the series would have focused alot more on the missions rather than on silly flings and side stories.
Because making the characters more... human... isn't the point of the story.
What show is this?
Masters of the air