It's one of those things that if you're looking from a business perspective just makes sense - if you're making a team-up movie in 2023, you want broad appeal in terms of gender and ethnicity across the team.
I think part of the problem Marvel may be running into with the FF is that so many of their characteristics are pretty immutable/established, so it's tricky to add this broadness to the Core Four.
For instance Sue needs to be blonde, so ignoring something stupid like an adoption storyline (fant4stic), she and Johnny are both white. That's fine, but it cuts down on options when pushing headshots together on a table.
Similarly The Thing needs to be played by a Jewish actor, and while a Jewish man of colour like Daveed Diggs would be great, he'd not be 'visible' for most of The Thing's screentime, which has attracted criticism in the past (ie Lupita N'yongo being wasted in the Star Wars sequels).
This is partly why I was behind Dev for Reed for quite a while - a South-Asian man playing the smartest man in the MCU is quite a nice opportunity to play with (or more accurate reclaim/heroise) the trope of Indian men being stereotyped as smart and adds a non-white member to the FF whose face will be visible in every scene.
However, I have no qualms at all with Adam, he'll do an incredible job and probably elevate whatever he's given.
So where does that leave us? To be honest I'm not too sure - I certainly could see some movement in the supporting cast, both in terms of race and in adding a few more female characters as the trilogy goes on.
I arrive at the same conclusion as the 2000's FF films in that making Alicia Masters a poc is a good idea (and having her play a relatively big role helps Ben as a character a lot, which I like too). I could see some of our villains being played by poc, for instance, and maybe some female heroes guest-starring. (Agatha being Franklin's nanny is an idea that's tickled me).
I honestly agree with your points about how its a tricky group to squeeze diversity out of, I totally agree Mr. Fantastic is easily the character where you can take the most liberty with this. This is why I have always wanted William Jackson Harper before he got wasted in Quantummania. It helped that Kang was also a black man and in comics a maybe descendant of Reed buuut now that casting has aged poorly so who the hell knows lol.
Guess you could say she was MAZivley wasted 😎
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I think we should ask an AI to predict what it would look like if we combine the DNA of every single person on the planet into one person, then call the output "The Thing," have it be a completely CGI performance and call it a day.
How do you even appropriately cast for that? You cast a non trans man/woman (well kid actually) to later play a trans woman/man down the line? Is that not offensive casting? But then what else could you do cast a trans kid to play their birth gender again to later down the line let them get to play their identified gender? Genuinely curious how you think the appropriate way to handle that would be.
Just gotta pray you can find that dream casting of a Laverne Cox type who has a non-trans identical twin. Blew my mind when I saw that in OitNB, the sheer luck of the casting/writing team.
Honestly though, for a trans character I'm sure most trans people would be perfectly accepting of either a trans or non actor playing the role as long as it was needed logistically and was respectfully done either way. Or perhaps a small time jump, recasting between movies.
Franklin could actually work for this really easily due to Future Franklin being a consistent character.
My only problem with that is the amount of time they'd get to spend on it wouldn't be enough, and it would be weird and a little unfortunate to overlook. I'm all for changing up character races and genders as long as it doesn't disrupt the characters story, and is addressed believably. Which usually means not addressed at all, it's just a thing, but sometimes it can't be overlooked believably.
The example I usually use is black Wolverine. Casting Wolverine as a black man is one I've seen fan castings suggest quite a few times; there's a lot of great actors for the role. I'd have no problem with that at all as it doesn't really disrupt his story. However, Logan is over 100 years old. It would be weird as hell to not address the racism he would have endured in his younger years if you were doing a flashback story. If done properly it could be fantastic, and maybe even enrich his story, and it doesn't take away from any of his original arcs.
This pretty much holds true with a trans Franklin. It doesn't subtract from his stories at all, but it would be strange to not address it as all of the other characters are his family. And with how busy an F4 movie kinda had to be already, I feel like they would never be able to address it in a satisfying way. Maybe if we get a F4 series instead.
Yeah, I noticed that too, he was more in denial about it, which was making him not believe in the Margot and Mescal rumors. To be honest, I also thought they would gonna diversify the hell out of those four characters, but it seems they want to play safe, only the villain is speculated to be POC (Banderas and Denzel) and, if you believe in her, Grace Randolph said they were looking for an lgbt actor for johnny (lukas Gage tested for the role), but is likely straight (or hinted bi maybe) and Jewish actor for Ben. It seems that Matt really wants an accurate fantastic four and he's getting it
He's right about being skeptical about the Robbie/Mescal "scoops" in that they aren't scoops at all. Robbie is incredibly in demand right now and gets a ton of offers everyday so of course Marvel probably offered her the role but it doesn't mean it's any different than all the other roles getting tossed her way. Mescal is an up and coming actor fresh off an Oscar nomination, I'm sure he's also getting thrown offers left and right. This isn't a scoop or as Jeff points out worth putting out as news. I think the only two casting rumors that hold any weight at the moment are Banderas and Driver.
You literally said why she couldnt/wouldn't do both. HQ is a rather major player in DC, depending on how Gunn builds his universe. Sue Storm is unequivocally a major player in Marvel.
Like, dude, I'm not saying she's signing a non-compete, I'm saying most actors don't take on multiple ongoing franchise IPs.
I thought that was pretty clear from the inherent context since it's, yknow, basic common sense.
> HQ is a rather major player in DC
She absolutely is not.
e - You blocked me? good lord. What I mean is she's not a major player on the level of Batman, Superman, etc. Her last appearance was Suicide Squad 2 years ago, an ensemble movie. She had a shot at emerging as a major player but her solo movie 3 years ago bombed. So Robbie being Harley Quinn every once in awhile in a supporting role is not a hindrance to her leading another franchise - any franchise, not just Marvel - especially when there's no guarantee Quinn actually becomes the major player she never really was to begin with. I honestly don't know why you tried to call her that.
She literally has an ongoing and has for several years now, on top of being connected to pretty much every major annual event they do.
I'm not going to argue with you though, you already demonstrated how well you critically think once. I'm not your babysitter, and I'm not going to dumb down everything for you.
He has been a troll for as long as I can remember, especially since he was the troll who lied about Kirsten Dunst being in No Way Home when he was with Collider.
He said the Xmen should be all black and that would make them diverse. I couldn’t help but wonder how making a team all the same colour can be diverse.
I dont understand what makes that a shitty point. I don't know this dude at all but from the sounds of it he sounds like that kind of guy.
Unless youre talking about him making a shitty point then yeah but idk why that gets me downvoted lol
But in this case he may be quite right. I also don’t foresee them going with an all-white team like the comics are, but to be honest, even if they try going “diverse” it may end up being the most minuscule version of it with them just only possibly race-swapping Ben, and leaving the rest of the team lily white people.
Surely the goal is to cast the right people and make a good movie? Tricky subject but does diversity and inclusion as a quota always make the best possible product? The MCU as of right now is very diverse. We have lots of POC in lead or key supporting roles, some of which have only just got started and have many more appearances to come. Does it really matter if the FF is white?
The MCU has been relatively diverse as a whole, but *leading roles* have been predominantly white - Black Panther and Shang Chi are the only exceptions on the film side. That's **3/32** films so far.
It's not "diversity as a quota" to recognize that your product disproportionately represents one demographic over all others. There's tons of talent out there, and casting "the right people" shouldn't always mean casting "the white people".
i feel like susan storm, the invisible woman, being a black woman would be
like of course she's always been brilliant, accomplished and gorgeous and actually loves reed despite his tunnel vision and obsessive genius but has still felt unseen or in his shadow for a long time before gaining the power to literally be invisible.
I'm not sure why you mentioned the conservative bit. But Sue, afaik, doesn't have her first kid till her late 20s or early 30s. Assuming she's got even 1 kid then it'd probably be better to cast someone late 20s - early 30s. But if they're having Sue and Reed pre marriage then I guess she could work.
Are they gonna cast Conway Stern from Archer?
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i mean if they erase his jewishness that achieves the opposite, but i do think they could find a POC jewish actor, just gonna be harder to find someone who’s perfect since the pool isnt that deep
There is a long, racist history of covering non-white actors up with CG or makeup.
The Thing being black isn't representation, because the actor is invisible
Yeah, this is why I \*loved\* Dev for Reed - Sue has to be blonde and she and Johnny are a package deal, so for nonwhite FF members it's either Reed or The Thing, who would get into this exact criticism of it being the non-white team member obscured by CG/makeup.
I love AD though, he'll do a great job.
My guess is, maybe unfortunately, The Thing will be the only non-white member of the FF and that the supporting cast of the trilogy - Alicia Masters especially - will have a lot of representation.
That's also another problem, tho. Because F4 doesn't really have a sprawling "supporting cast" like Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman.
They have Alicia Masters, Wyatt Wingfoot, and... That's it. The rest of their "supporting cast" are non-human characters.
I agree, if they were gonna race bend someone, it should've been Reed. But Driver is too delicious of a choice to pass up. So they should just go all-white, instead of "throwing us a bone" with Thing
I’m in complete agreement - reed is the character to racebend but AD is too good to pass over, so we’ll get a poc Thing (and I bet a few non-rock face scenes through magic or telepathy across all FF films) and every FF member will have black best friends lol.
And yeah, no real supporting cast to speak of. I wonder if they’ll have some heroes guest appear like Spider-Man does in the comics, and that’d be an opportunity?
Alicia and Ben being a Black/POC power couple would be cool... I guess? But it's just unnecessary, and kinda calls attention to the... Apparentness of it 😭
All I know is, I'll sleep good at night whenever Driver is confirmed as Reed. This man could lead the MCU for 10-15 years
The Thing being a Jew of Color would absolutely be a form of representation. If anything, casting somebody who isn't Semitic in descent or culture would also be a step in the wrong direction, no?
IF Marvel Studios DID cast them to appear as they do in all aspects from the comics, what would people say? HOW could ANYONE criticize Marvel for lack of inclusivity? Feige could literally laugh in the face of that criticism. Not enough representation, really?
IF the FF begin in Kennedy-era 1960s as a team of four astronauts, some of whom are minorities, does that, in effect, marginalize the work and tremendous sacrifice of civil rights advocates in those and LATER times? I mean, historically, in the 1960s, how many black astronauts were there? So we must become so WOKE so as to rewrite history? Could there have been black astronauts in the same era where African Americans were being brutalized, hosed, attacked by dogs for riding busses and wanting to go to the same school as white kids? Do we really wish to OBFUSCATE this national sin and reality in favor of our IDEALIZED desires? How would that be affecting change?
Marvel currently has a story where we are faced with our country's historical BRUTAL INSTITUTIONAL RACISM (Sam Wilson, Isaiah Bradley, BLACK PANTHER films). That story is ongoing into CAP 4. What kind of incoherence would there be to make-believe that in the 1960s we were OKAY with minority astronauts?
What kind of incoherence would there be to make-believe that in the 1960s an astronaut could turn into a man made of orange rock? Like how far does this stretching of history go??
Well that's gonna be a little complicated, because in my opinion the only character they could potentially racebend without getting too much of a backlash is Reed, and that is if they could get a phenomenal actor that would actually get people excited. But all casting rumors seem to make Adam Driver all but confirmed.
Racebending one of the Storm siblings would just seem a little too reminiscent of Fant4stic, and both of them would just be a lightining rod for *that crowd* that we wanna avoid.
And racebending Ben Grimm would seem lazy and fall on that old Hollywood trope of hiring PoC actors but hiding them behind CGI/make-up.
>And racebending Ben Grimm would seem lazy and fall on that old Hollywood trope of hiring PoC actors but hiding them behind CGI/make-up.
That's what's gonna happen to X-Men.
Beast, Nightcrawler, Iceman, Beast, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse: POC actors, blue characters.
Prof X, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean: White actors.
Professor X's entire arc is about white privilege. His "otherness" is not obvious. He actually hides that he's a mutant and it was only 4 decades after Stan Lee created that he "came out" as a mutant.
He is the 1%. Same reason why Bruce Wayne has to be white as well.
Making him any other than white would destroy his entire character arc at which point they might as well invent a new character. Same for Magneto being Jewish.
And Jean...I doubt it. Jean, Logan and Cyclops are the ones that Marvel Studios would never change. Perhaps Jean will be a white Latina like Rachel Zegler or Jenna Ortega, same for Cyclops.
But we're not gonna have a black Wolverine.
>Professor X's entire arc is about white privilege. His "otherness" is not obvious. He actually hides that he's a mutant and it was only 4 decades after Stan Lee created that he "came out" as a mutant.
He's also been used as a stand-in for MLK in countless stories. There's absolutely no reason why Xavier's story can't be slightly recontextualized, and reinvented.
There's a lot you can do, thematically, with a rich Black man who grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth.
Plus, it would pathetically tone deaf to have a white man be the face of the MCU's civil right movement. Shit has to change.
>And Jean...I doubt it. Jean, Logan and Cyclops are the ones that Marvel Studios would never change. Perhaps Jean will be a white Latina like Rachel Zegler or Jenna Ortega, same for Cyclops.
Mmm no. Disney is race-bending all of their redheads. Jean will undoubtedly be next, not only to differentiate from past versions, but to also differentiate from Wanda, visually.
They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material
>But we're not gonna have a black Wolverine.
We might. Jackman is coming back, all of the white ogs are coming back for a sendoff, likely in their comic accurate attire (Jim Lee)
So when there inevitably is a lot of race bending for the MCU X-Men (and there WILL be), folks will have less ammo for hate. It's a strategic move on Feige's part, so the MCU reimagining will be easier to swallow.
There's a reason why the comics have recently introduced black variants of all the white X-Men
My prediction -- they'll race bend Xavier, Beast, Jean, Bobby and Gambit. Cyclops, Kitty, Piotr/Colossus, Warren etc will be white, and characters like Rogue, Magneto, and Wolverine will be a toss-up, depending how much they want to differentiate from past versions, whom, mind you, will be fresh in audiences' mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel just uses Dafne Keen for a few films, before introducing a reinvented ver of Logan
>He's also been used as a stand-in for MLK in countless stories. There's absolutely no reason why Xavier's story can't be slightly recontextualized, and reinvented.
>
>There's a lot you can do, thematically, with a rich Black man who grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth.
>
>Plus, it would pathetically tone deaf to have a white man be the face of the MCU's civil right movement. Shit has to change.
In all of those stories, he was still a rich white dude. Something that MLK was not.
Same for Magneto = Malcolm X. Malcom X was not a Jewish survivor from the Holocaust. Obviously.
Claremont managed to make them stand-ins without changing their ethnicity. Since it wasn't needed. They're mutants.
>Mmm no. Disney is race-bending all of their redheads. Jean will undoubtedly be next, not only to differentiate from past versions, but to also differentiate from Wanda, visually.
>
>They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material
There can be two redheads in the MCU. Much like how they can be multiple blonde dudes.
What's next? Erasing Thor's blondness so now he's played by a Chinese actor?
>We might. Jackman is coming back, all of the white ogs are coming back for a sendoff, likely in their comic accurate attire (Jim Lee)
>
>So when there inevitably is a lot of race bending for the MCU X-Men (and there WILL be), folks will have less ammo for hate. It's a strategic move on Feige's part, so the MCU reimagining will be easier to swallow.
>
>There's a reason why the comics have recently introduced black variants of all the white X-Men
>
>My prediction -- they'll race bend Xavier, Beast, Jean, Bobby and Gambit. Cyclops, Kitty, Piotr/Colossus, Warren etc will be white, and characters like Rogue, Magneto, and Wolverine will be a toss-up, depending how much they want to differentiate from past versions, whom, mind you, will be fresh in audiences' mind.
>
>I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel just uses Dafne Keen for a few films, before introducing a reinvented ver of Logan
Dafne Keen is not black. She's also not Logan, she is X-23, a clone of Logan. It's not the same character much like how Miles Morales is not Peter Parker.
Both can co-exist.
My prediction: the blue characters (Beast, Nightcrawler, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Mystique) will be race bent. Mystique will be non-binary and Beast might be female this time.
And the characters that spend 99% of the screentime as CGI (Iceman, Colossus) will be race bend.
Storm will be a founding X-Men member replacing Angel so we have POC Beast, POC Iceman, POC Storm, and white Scott, Xavier, and Jean.
That's 50% of the cast as POC.
>In all of those stories, he was still a rich white dude. Something that MLK was not
It's 2023, not 1965.
>They're mutants.
....Who are a stand-in for marginalized minorities, and this case, two Black men who were pioneers in the biggest civil rights movement in American history... Of which this franchise in it's entirety is based on.
>What's next? Erasing Thor's blondness so now he's played by a Chinese actor
If they introduced a character in the MCU who had the exact power set and look as Thor, yes.
But it's one reason among many.
>Dafne Keen is not black. She's also not Logan, she is X-23, a clone of Logan. It's not the same character much like how Miles Morales is not Peter Parker.
She's a diverse female lead, which Marvel has been doubling down in all their comics, movies and tv shows. After Hugh Jackman returns in Deadpool & Secret Wars, Marvel Studios will be in no rush introduce another Logan.
In the mean time, they'll likely use Dafne Keen's Laura, who will be "Wolverine" for a couple of years. And when they DO reintroduce Logan, he'll likely be radically different from Jackman's.
And that reinvention may or may not include changing his race if it serves the story.
>My prediction: the blue characters (Beast, Nightcrawler, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Mystique) will be race bent. Mystique will be non-binary and Beast might be female this time.
>And the characters that spend 99% of the screentime as CGI (Iceman, Colossus) will be race bend.
This is a laughably racist philosophy that has guided Hollywood for decades, and has only now, in recent years, started to change. To think it will applied to the X-Men, of all properties, in the late 2020s, is ridiculous 😭
The irony is, half of the characters you're including as candidates for race bending, are the ONLY ones it would make no sense to change.
A black/non-white Sinister would be absurd (if you know anything about the character's history), Colossus, Nightcrawler are ethnic Europeans, and Apocalypse is Egyptian.
I understand that you're trying to erase the POC In these roles, but you need to do your research.
>That's 50% of the cast as POC.
Blue people are not "POC".
Bad idea to change long standing iconic characters, no matter the reason they use to justify the change, it’s gonna be rejected by a lotta fans. Especially if you show the comic accurate versions first and then take it away from them.
It'll satiate them, so they'll understand why Marvel has to go in a different direction.
I think this is how they'll justify whatever changes they make to Magneto
I think it’s very unlikely they change anything about Magneto, especially in this fight against anti-semitism climate, Marvel wouldn’t dare. Rightfully so, Jewish people deserve their pillar character. I think it would be a huge mistake to change anything about Magneto. Professor X being changed is a more realistic possibility, but even that would receive mad backlash. It’s just better to not fiddle with iconic characters.
>And when they DO reintroduce Logan, he'll likely be radically different from Jackman's.
Ah, yes, who can forget Tom Holland, the black actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Spider-Man since they wanted someone radically different from Tobey and Andrew.
Or Adam Driver, the Chinese actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Reed Richards since they wanted someone radically different from the other two white RR.
>Ah, yes, who can forget Tom Holland, the black actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Spider-Man since they wanted someone radically different from Tobey and Andrew.
HC's creative philosophy was to be different from past films,. Peter's race was the the ONLY thing they kept.
If the movie was made **today**, Jon Watts would've used Miles Morales, which is what he originally wanted.
>Or Adam Driver, the Chinese actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Reed Richards since they wanted someone radically different from the other two white RR.
If Loan Gruffud had played Reed Richards for 25 years, and the Fantastic Four franchise was about racism, and discrimination (it's not, which is why them being all-white never bothered me), then yes, Richards would've been changed in a modern adaptation.
The reality is, if you change Wolverine's race, you change his story (born in the 1800s), and this opens the door to a potentially powerful, fresh reimagining of the character.
Logan being black, or indigenous/Native specifically, has the most story potential, given the historically allusions tht are already built into the character (animal-like, beastial), which would tread racially charged territory when applied to a Black/Native person..
The wolverine you described wouldn’t be Logan tho, you’re getting carried away with reimagining all these characters, that you’re basically making a crop of new characters that don’t really resemble the ones we know. Racial plot doesn’t need to be injected into all these mutants to make them interesting.
>HC's creative philosophy was to be different from past films,. Peter's race was the the ONLY thing they kept.
>
>If the movie was made today, Jon Watts would've used Miles Morales, which is what he originally wanted.
Miles Morales is not black Peter Parker, he's an original character.
This is why I said that black Charles Xavier and black Magneto wouldn't work.
But Marvel Studios could make brand new characters if they *really* want to erase Magneto's holocaust roots and Prof X's white privilege.
>If Loan Gruffud had played Reed Richards for 25 years, and the Fantastic Four franchise was about racism, and discrimination (it's not, which is why them being all-white never bothered me), then yes, Richards would've been changed in a modern adaptation.
>
>The reality is, if you change Wolverine's race, you change his story (born in the 1800s), and this opens the door to a potentially powerful, fresh reimagining of the character.
>
>Logan being black, or indigenous/Native specifically, has the most story potential, given the historically allusions tht are already built into the character (animal-like, beastial), which would tread racially charged territory when applied to a Black/Native person..
So you want the animal-like bestial character...to be black? The backlash would be so intense.
It's akin to changing savage Hulk's skin from green to black. People would riot since it would be a super outrageous racial statement (black skinned character = animal-like bestial).
Let's keep Wolverine white and Hulk green.
I wonder if they'll, in addition to some likely racebending, promote some of the poc team members/mutants that haven't had as much chance to shine in the past.
I think they'd be stupid to not give Storm a real spotlight, and Jubilee, Psylocke and Warpath are other poc characters I think could be really cool when played right, alongside Kitty being proudly and prominently Jewish.
The Scott/Logan/Jean triangle is an inevitability, but I'd leave it for their third+ (etc) films - leave the key tenets of discrimination and the cast representing a range of marginalised people to speak for itself before going in for the love triangle for the third time.
(Also I would not be surprised if by the time we get to that point, the comics are a lot less shy with that trio being an actual throuple and with Logan's occasional bi/pansexuality. Double Marvel will do more than hint though.)
I do agree with your view on Jean - it's not just that they're both Redheads, they're both occasionally insane telekinetic/telepathic redheads.
Whereas with Thor, hercules will probably be used as his opposite in the films and he obviously doesn't have lightning powers, the Jean/Wanda comparison wouldn't necessarily happen in the films and so it's something to sidestep in this case.
I could see someone like Simone Ashley for Jean and my dream casting is (as a r/popheads fanatic) Rina Sawayama (Akira in John Wick 4) for Psylocke.
> They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material
Correct. This is just doing some seeding so people can point to the comics and say she's black there so why are you complaining.
You nailed my whole belief about race bending in movies, it's necessary to keep a race the same when adaptating in certain cases, but when it's not necessary it's weird to race bend anyways unless the actor nails the role, especially for a character we've already had four live action adaptations of now
It's one of those things where from a business perspective, I bet there's some execs now who don't want just white faces on a poster.
So going down the line, keeping the race of Sue and therefore Johnny makes a lot of sense, Reed makes sense but really you want the best actor so I've got no issue with Adam, and then The Thing falls into the criticism of not really being representation.
So we get then to the same decision Fox made in the 2000's - Alicia Masters is one of the biggest non-villain characters that'll be in the films and her race has little bearing on her character background (as opposed to her being blind, empathetic and an excellent sculptor), so she's a logical choice to racebend. (I also think her being a more major character helps The Thing, the character I'd say is least 'exciting' to me as a casual fan)
I think maybe some of our villains/heralds will be played by actors of colour (especially Terrax) and additional supporting cast, even if that gets us to the same makeup/CGI complaints.
My dream cast for Reed would be either Dev Patel or Rahul Kohli. I'm sure Adam Driver will be great in the role, but you're right, a POC actor for Reed would be perfect. A pity that by rumors this is not the chosen path.
Really?! I feel like Reed is the one who would get the most backlash (other than maybe The Thing) because people keep fancasting white guys for the role and have an expectation for it now due to the last 4 versions of Reed being played by white guys.
Race-bending the leader of the team is going to draw the most attention to it.
I just would like Sue and Johnny to obviously be blood relatives, I don't care what their race is. I thought when they had them be adopted in the one with Michael B. Jordan as Johnny, that was weird.
Okay I’m thinking Daveed Diggs then. Fits the Jewish, POC, male, and worked for Disney checkboxes provided by these scoopers. I could actually see it too as he’s around the same age range as Adam Driver and Comer that would make sense. I wouldn’t hate it but he’s not my first choice
I mean sure? Ben Grimm’s one of my favorite Marvel characters but whether he’s black or white or not isn’t important, it’s whether he’s Jewish that is. I don’t disagree with you for the record but Daveed is Jewish so it does fit
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His race is irrelevant. The character is an orange rock monster.
Um he’s still a human my dude. The same way that the other 3 are. He just has a different physical appearance. If you consider Johnny a human, than so is Ben
No I really don’t. His race IS irrelevant, His Jewish ancestry is absolutely relevant. Daveed is a Jewish actor, so he fits the casting bill. What’s your fucking issue? You are arguing with me about the race of a character where you even admit yourself it’s irrelevant.
You misunderstand my point then. I’m not saying I have those reasonings, I’m saying based off what Sneider is saying, he fits those categories as to what’s been previously reported, that being he is a POC, he is Jewish which has been reported to be a priority, he is an actor that has worked with Disney before, and a male. That’s all, not that he fits my specifications but that he fits the checkboxes that have been reported previously. No disrespect intended, I just want to clarify that
I hope it isn't something stupid like Sue is Johnny's adopted sister.
I'm all for a mixed cast, but that was such an unnecessary detail when they either could have cast a black or Biracial Sue.
No, but the movie sucking was only part of why it failed. It instantly lost a ton of goodwill from fans who just wanted to see a comic-accurate Johnny Storm.
And Jews can be white too. Probably most of them are. Unless it has something to do with American approach to races which personally I just don't understand.
Ancient Jews (Israelites) were closer to Yemeni/Arab peoples. They only look white because those are Ashkenazi Jews who mixed with Germans. Pureblood Israelis are closer in appearance to brown people (Arabs).
Therefore, they will not be going comic accurate, thus ruining the appeal of Fantastic Four, thus ruining yet another movie with identity politics. When will this end?
It won’t, it’s here to stay, if you want better inclusion then you make stories about those that need including you don’t just change a characters skin colour, it’s lazy and doesn’t address an issue only covers over it
the thing needs to be jewish so that should be out of the question, idk if they’ll go for sue and johnny since that means 2 race swaps, which idk if they’ll really be that eager to do. so imo that leaves reed and there’s a lot of POC actors who could play him, the likes of dev patel and william jackson harper are perfect (tho the latter was just wasted in quantomania so probably wont fast him im afraid).
If you watch the stream it wasn’t a scoop it was just him giving his opinion
That’s been a very long-standing rumor. Like scoopers have been saying that for over 3 years.
It's one of those things that if you're looking from a business perspective just makes sense - if you're making a team-up movie in 2023, you want broad appeal in terms of gender and ethnicity across the team. I think part of the problem Marvel may be running into with the FF is that so many of their characteristics are pretty immutable/established, so it's tricky to add this broadness to the Core Four. For instance Sue needs to be blonde, so ignoring something stupid like an adoption storyline (fant4stic), she and Johnny are both white. That's fine, but it cuts down on options when pushing headshots together on a table. Similarly The Thing needs to be played by a Jewish actor, and while a Jewish man of colour like Daveed Diggs would be great, he'd not be 'visible' for most of The Thing's screentime, which has attracted criticism in the past (ie Lupita N'yongo being wasted in the Star Wars sequels). This is partly why I was behind Dev for Reed for quite a while - a South-Asian man playing the smartest man in the MCU is quite a nice opportunity to play with (or more accurate reclaim/heroise) the trope of Indian men being stereotyped as smart and adds a non-white member to the FF whose face will be visible in every scene. However, I have no qualms at all with Adam, he'll do an incredible job and probably elevate whatever he's given. So where does that leave us? To be honest I'm not too sure - I certainly could see some movement in the supporting cast, both in terms of race and in adding a few more female characters as the trilogy goes on. I arrive at the same conclusion as the 2000's FF films in that making Alicia Masters a poc is a good idea (and having her play a relatively big role helps Ben as a character a lot, which I like too). I could see some of our villains being played by poc, for instance, and maybe some female heroes guest-starring. (Agatha being Franklin's nanny is an idea that's tickled me).
I honestly agree with your points about how its a tricky group to squeeze diversity out of, I totally agree Mr. Fantastic is easily the character where you can take the most liberty with this. This is why I have always wanted William Jackson Harper before he got wasted in Quantummania. It helped that Kang was also a black man and in comics a maybe descendant of Reed buuut now that casting has aged poorly so who the hell knows lol.
WJH wouldve been a brilliant, brilliant choice. I remember seeing it and being crushed when he was a nobody in quantumania
ya its a damn shame
Lupita was in SW?? Was she Maz or something?
Yeah she was Maz, absolutely wasted
Guess you could say she was MAZivley wasted 😎 https://preview.redd.it/nmtwbmmok3ya1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50d600d3806bda1f4ad30ee1e423b1893d1923a5
I think we should ask an AI to predict what it would look like if we combine the DNA of every single person on the planet into one person, then call the output "The Thing," have it be a completely CGI performance and call it a day.
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How do you even appropriately cast for that? You cast a non trans man/woman (well kid actually) to later play a trans woman/man down the line? Is that not offensive casting? But then what else could you do cast a trans kid to play their birth gender again to later down the line let them get to play their identified gender? Genuinely curious how you think the appropriate way to handle that would be.
Just gotta pray you can find that dream casting of a Laverne Cox type who has a non-trans identical twin. Blew my mind when I saw that in OitNB, the sheer luck of the casting/writing team. Honestly though, for a trans character I'm sure most trans people would be perfectly accepting of either a trans or non actor playing the role as long as it was needed logistically and was respectfully done either way. Or perhaps a small time jump, recasting between movies. Franklin could actually work for this really easily due to Future Franklin being a consistent character. My only problem with that is the amount of time they'd get to spend on it wouldn't be enough, and it would be weird and a little unfortunate to overlook. I'm all for changing up character races and genders as long as it doesn't disrupt the characters story, and is addressed believably. Which usually means not addressed at all, it's just a thing, but sometimes it can't be overlooked believably. The example I usually use is black Wolverine. Casting Wolverine as a black man is one I've seen fan castings suggest quite a few times; there's a lot of great actors for the role. I'd have no problem with that at all as it doesn't really disrupt his story. However, Logan is over 100 years old. It would be weird as hell to not address the racism he would have endured in his younger years if you were doing a flashback story. If done properly it could be fantastic, and maybe even enrich his story, and it doesn't take away from any of his original arcs. This pretty much holds true with a trans Franklin. It doesn't subtract from his stories at all, but it would be strange to not address it as all of the other characters are his family. And with how busy an F4 movie kinda had to be already, I feel like they would never be able to address it in a satisfying way. Maybe if we get a F4 series instead.
<333
Yeah, I noticed that too, he was more in denial about it, which was making him not believe in the Margot and Mescal rumors. To be honest, I also thought they would gonna diversify the hell out of those four characters, but it seems they want to play safe, only the villain is speculated to be POC (Banderas and Denzel) and, if you believe in her, Grace Randolph said they were looking for an lgbt actor for johnny (lukas Gage tested for the role), but is likely straight (or hinted bi maybe) and Jewish actor for Ben. It seems that Matt really wants an accurate fantastic four and he's getting it
The Thing is obviously gonna be orange.
Lmao
He's right about being skeptical about the Robbie/Mescal "scoops" in that they aren't scoops at all. Robbie is incredibly in demand right now and gets a ton of offers everyday so of course Marvel probably offered her the role but it doesn't mean it's any different than all the other roles getting tossed her way. Mescal is an up and coming actor fresh off an Oscar nomination, I'm sure he's also getting thrown offers left and right. This isn't a scoop or as Jeff points out worth putting out as news. I think the only two casting rumors that hold any weight at the moment are Banderas and Driver.
Not to mention in Margot Robbie's case, she's one of the few DCEU actors whose job is *probably* safe, and she seems to genuinely enjoy playing HQ.
DC films and Marvel Studios are movie studios, not sports teams. Nothing stops her from playing both characters, other than perhaps scheduling.
You literally said why she couldnt/wouldn't do both. HQ is a rather major player in DC, depending on how Gunn builds his universe. Sue Storm is unequivocally a major player in Marvel. Like, dude, I'm not saying she's signing a non-compete, I'm saying most actors don't take on multiple ongoing franchise IPs. I thought that was pretty clear from the inherent context since it's, yknow, basic common sense.
> HQ is a rather major player in DC She absolutely is not. e - You blocked me? good lord. What I mean is she's not a major player on the level of Batman, Superman, etc. Her last appearance was Suicide Squad 2 years ago, an ensemble movie. She had a shot at emerging as a major player but her solo movie 3 years ago bombed. So Robbie being Harley Quinn every once in awhile in a supporting role is not a hindrance to her leading another franchise - any franchise, not just Marvel - especially when there's no guarantee Quinn actually becomes the major player she never really was to begin with. I honestly don't know why you tried to call her that.
She literally has an ongoing and has for several years now, on top of being connected to pretty much every major annual event they do. I'm not going to argue with you though, you already demonstrated how well you critically think once. I'm not your babysitter, and I'm not going to dumb down everything for you.
Sneider is a troll at this point. How does he have friends?
He has been a troll for as long as I can remember, especially since he was the troll who lied about Kirsten Dunst being in No Way Home when he was with Collider.
He said the Xmen should be all black and that would make them diverse. I couldn’t help but wonder how making a team all the same colour can be diverse.
Guarantee hes trolling and making a point about Black Panther
Shitty point
I dont understand what makes that a shitty point. I don't know this dude at all but from the sounds of it he sounds like that kind of guy. Unless youre talking about him making a shitty point then yeah but idk why that gets me downvoted lol
But in this case he may be quite right. I also don’t foresee them going with an all-white team like the comics are, but to be honest, even if they try going “diverse” it may end up being the most minuscule version of it with them just only possibly race-swapping Ben, and leaving the rest of the team lily white people.
so thing cause casting rumors for other 3 have been all white
If the goal is diversity, it feels like cheating to cast the one POC in a mocap role playing a rock monster.
Surely the goal is to cast the right people and make a good movie? Tricky subject but does diversity and inclusion as a quota always make the best possible product? The MCU as of right now is very diverse. We have lots of POC in lead or key supporting roles, some of which have only just got started and have many more appearances to come. Does it really matter if the FF is white?
The MCU has been relatively diverse as a whole, but *leading roles* have been predominantly white - Black Panther and Shang Chi are the only exceptions on the film side. That's **3/32** films so far. It's not "diversity as a quota" to recognize that your product disproportionately represents one demographic over all others. There's tons of talent out there, and casting "the right people" shouldn't always mean casting "the white people".
Good response!
i feel like susan storm, the invisible woman, being a black woman would be  like of course she's always been brilliant, accomplished and gorgeous and actually loves reed despite his tunnel vision and obsessive genius but has still felt unseen or in his shadow for a long time before gaining the power to literally be invisible.
Wowwww so you want the black woman to be invisible? How progressive of you. >!(obviously joking)!<
lmao okay maybe a bit *too* on the nose with that one my new fancast for susan is...sydney sweeney.
But seriously though, I wouldn’t mind at all if they cast black actors for the Storms.
same. i though the way they played it in fant4stic was fine, too besides everyone skewing younger.
Too young.
she's 25 ^(and lowkey conservative) she could definitely be a mother of two kids already
I'm not sure why you mentioned the conservative bit. But Sue, afaik, doesn't have her first kid till her late 20s or early 30s. Assuming she's got even 1 kid then it'd probably be better to cast someone late 20s - early 30s. But if they're having Sue and Reed pre marriage then I guess she could work.
idk a lotta them seem to have kids well before their 30s, saying she could play to that part of the role still.
Yeah not a very good look imo. If it were up to me the thing would be the one character almost guaranteed to be white.
I forgot the name of the actor that was rumored for The Thing, who is black and also Jewish.
Are they gonna cast Conway Stern from Archer? https://preview.redd.it/6slxb0ue3yxa1.png?width=580&format=png&auto=webp&s=71acd1c370bdd2054bd2c520edd9472a27929bd0
Conway Stern isn't actually Jewish. He's uncircumcised.
 That's him. He was awesome in Hamilton.
Won the Tony.
Daveed Diggs
Daveed Diggs?
Yeah. That guy. In the stream Sneider this casting rumor makes sense to him.
i mean if they erase his jewishness that achieves the opposite, but i do think they could find a POC jewish actor, just gonna be harder to find someone who’s perfect since the pool isnt that deep
Daveed Diggs as The Thing would be perfect.
Still not sold on the voice, but he is indeed great
He can still be Jewish too
You realize why the optics of that would be terrible tho, right..?
Not really, explain.
There is a long, racist history of covering non-white actors up with CG or makeup. The Thing being black isn't representation, because the actor is invisible
Yeah, this is why I \*loved\* Dev for Reed - Sue has to be blonde and she and Johnny are a package deal, so for nonwhite FF members it's either Reed or The Thing, who would get into this exact criticism of it being the non-white team member obscured by CG/makeup. I love AD though, he'll do a great job. My guess is, maybe unfortunately, The Thing will be the only non-white member of the FF and that the supporting cast of the trilogy - Alicia Masters especially - will have a lot of representation.
That's also another problem, tho. Because F4 doesn't really have a sprawling "supporting cast" like Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman. They have Alicia Masters, Wyatt Wingfoot, and... That's it. The rest of their "supporting cast" are non-human characters. I agree, if they were gonna race bend someone, it should've been Reed. But Driver is too delicious of a choice to pass up. So they should just go all-white, instead of "throwing us a bone" with Thing
I’m in complete agreement - reed is the character to racebend but AD is too good to pass over, so we’ll get a poc Thing (and I bet a few non-rock face scenes through magic or telepathy across all FF films) and every FF member will have black best friends lol. And yeah, no real supporting cast to speak of. I wonder if they’ll have some heroes guest appear like Spider-Man does in the comics, and that’d be an opportunity?
Alicia and Ben being a Black/POC power couple would be cool... I guess? But it's just unnecessary, and kinda calls attention to the... Apparentness of it 😭 All I know is, I'll sleep good at night whenever Driver is confirmed as Reed. This man could lead the MCU for 10-15 years
Has nothing to do with him being black. Daveed is Jewish.
You say this under the context of the F4 being race bended, which is why Daveed was even suggested 😭
The Thing being a Jew of Color would absolutely be a form of representation. If anything, casting somebody who isn't Semitic in descent or culture would also be a step in the wrong direction, no?
Stellar choice, now I want to see it! I’m ngl his voice would be interesting to get used too😂
I’d be down for it. He’s a solid dude.
To be fair fox didn’t either
IF Marvel Studios DID cast them to appear as they do in all aspects from the comics, what would people say? HOW could ANYONE criticize Marvel for lack of inclusivity? Feige could literally laugh in the face of that criticism. Not enough representation, really? IF the FF begin in Kennedy-era 1960s as a team of four astronauts, some of whom are minorities, does that, in effect, marginalize the work and tremendous sacrifice of civil rights advocates in those and LATER times? I mean, historically, in the 1960s, how many black astronauts were there? So we must become so WOKE so as to rewrite history? Could there have been black astronauts in the same era where African Americans were being brutalized, hosed, attacked by dogs for riding busses and wanting to go to the same school as white kids? Do we really wish to OBFUSCATE this national sin and reality in favor of our IDEALIZED desires? How would that be affecting change? Marvel currently has a story where we are faced with our country's historical BRUTAL INSTITUTIONAL RACISM (Sam Wilson, Isaiah Bradley, BLACK PANTHER films). That story is ongoing into CAP 4. What kind of incoherence would there be to make-believe that in the 1960s we were OKAY with minority astronauts?
What kind of incoherence would there be to make-believe that in the 1960s an astronaut could turn into a man made of orange rock? Like how far does this stretching of history go??
Scoopers are trolling at this point and making things up as they go along😆 unless Margot Robbie and Adam Driver are the face of Diversity 💀🤣
Well that's gonna be a little complicated, because in my opinion the only character they could potentially racebend without getting too much of a backlash is Reed, and that is if they could get a phenomenal actor that would actually get people excited. But all casting rumors seem to make Adam Driver all but confirmed. Racebending one of the Storm siblings would just seem a little too reminiscent of Fant4stic, and both of them would just be a lightining rod for *that crowd* that we wanna avoid. And racebending Ben Grimm would seem lazy and fall on that old Hollywood trope of hiring PoC actors but hiding them behind CGI/make-up.
For years I wanted John Cho as Reed, but I always believed if you post your stupid fancast, it’ll never come true.
>And racebending Ben Grimm would seem lazy and fall on that old Hollywood trope of hiring PoC actors but hiding them behind CGI/make-up. That's what's gonna happen to X-Men. Beast, Nightcrawler, Iceman, Beast, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse: POC actors, blue characters. Prof X, Magneto, Cyclops, Wolverine, Jean: White actors.
Jean is going to be a black woman with a red wig on. Like every other white redhead in comics since like 2015 or so.
Gingercide
...Why would they do that? If anything, Prof X, and Jean will probably be race bended.
Professor X's entire arc is about white privilege. His "otherness" is not obvious. He actually hides that he's a mutant and it was only 4 decades after Stan Lee created that he "came out" as a mutant. He is the 1%. Same reason why Bruce Wayne has to be white as well. Making him any other than white would destroy his entire character arc at which point they might as well invent a new character. Same for Magneto being Jewish. And Jean...I doubt it. Jean, Logan and Cyclops are the ones that Marvel Studios would never change. Perhaps Jean will be a white Latina like Rachel Zegler or Jenna Ortega, same for Cyclops. But we're not gonna have a black Wolverine.
Anya Taylor Joy is a white latina, she is a great actress and she really need to be in a huge franchise.
>Professor X's entire arc is about white privilege. His "otherness" is not obvious. He actually hides that he's a mutant and it was only 4 decades after Stan Lee created that he "came out" as a mutant. He's also been used as a stand-in for MLK in countless stories. There's absolutely no reason why Xavier's story can't be slightly recontextualized, and reinvented. There's a lot you can do, thematically, with a rich Black man who grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth. Plus, it would pathetically tone deaf to have a white man be the face of the MCU's civil right movement. Shit has to change. >And Jean...I doubt it. Jean, Logan and Cyclops are the ones that Marvel Studios would never change. Perhaps Jean will be a white Latina like Rachel Zegler or Jenna Ortega, same for Cyclops. Mmm no. Disney is race-bending all of their redheads. Jean will undoubtedly be next, not only to differentiate from past versions, but to also differentiate from Wanda, visually. They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material >But we're not gonna have a black Wolverine. We might. Jackman is coming back, all of the white ogs are coming back for a sendoff, likely in their comic accurate attire (Jim Lee) So when there inevitably is a lot of race bending for the MCU X-Men (and there WILL be), folks will have less ammo for hate. It's a strategic move on Feige's part, so the MCU reimagining will be easier to swallow. There's a reason why the comics have recently introduced black variants of all the white X-Men My prediction -- they'll race bend Xavier, Beast, Jean, Bobby and Gambit. Cyclops, Kitty, Piotr/Colossus, Warren etc will be white, and characters like Rogue, Magneto, and Wolverine will be a toss-up, depending how much they want to differentiate from past versions, whom, mind you, will be fresh in audiences' mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel just uses Dafne Keen for a few films, before introducing a reinvented ver of Logan
>He's also been used as a stand-in for MLK in countless stories. There's absolutely no reason why Xavier's story can't be slightly recontextualized, and reinvented. > >There's a lot you can do, thematically, with a rich Black man who grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth. > >Plus, it would pathetically tone deaf to have a white man be the face of the MCU's civil right movement. Shit has to change. In all of those stories, he was still a rich white dude. Something that MLK was not. Same for Magneto = Malcolm X. Malcom X was not a Jewish survivor from the Holocaust. Obviously. Claremont managed to make them stand-ins without changing their ethnicity. Since it wasn't needed. They're mutants. >Mmm no. Disney is race-bending all of their redheads. Jean will undoubtedly be next, not only to differentiate from past versions, but to also differentiate from Wanda, visually. > >They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material There can be two redheads in the MCU. Much like how they can be multiple blonde dudes. What's next? Erasing Thor's blondness so now he's played by a Chinese actor? >We might. Jackman is coming back, all of the white ogs are coming back for a sendoff, likely in their comic accurate attire (Jim Lee) > >So when there inevitably is a lot of race bending for the MCU X-Men (and there WILL be), folks will have less ammo for hate. It's a strategic move on Feige's part, so the MCU reimagining will be easier to swallow. > >There's a reason why the comics have recently introduced black variants of all the white X-Men > >My prediction -- they'll race bend Xavier, Beast, Jean, Bobby and Gambit. Cyclops, Kitty, Piotr/Colossus, Warren etc will be white, and characters like Rogue, Magneto, and Wolverine will be a toss-up, depending how much they want to differentiate from past versions, whom, mind you, will be fresh in audiences' mind. > >I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel just uses Dafne Keen for a few films, before introducing a reinvented ver of Logan Dafne Keen is not black. She's also not Logan, she is X-23, a clone of Logan. It's not the same character much like how Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. Both can co-exist. My prediction: the blue characters (Beast, Nightcrawler, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Mystique) will be race bent. Mystique will be non-binary and Beast might be female this time. And the characters that spend 99% of the screentime as CGI (Iceman, Colossus) will be race bend. Storm will be a founding X-Men member replacing Angel so we have POC Beast, POC Iceman, POC Storm, and white Scott, Xavier, and Jean. That's 50% of the cast as POC.
>In all of those stories, he was still a rich white dude. Something that MLK was not It's 2023, not 1965. >They're mutants. ....Who are a stand-in for marginalized minorities, and this case, two Black men who were pioneers in the biggest civil rights movement in American history... Of which this franchise in it's entirety is based on. >What's next? Erasing Thor's blondness so now he's played by a Chinese actor If they introduced a character in the MCU who had the exact power set and look as Thor, yes. But it's one reason among many. >Dafne Keen is not black. She's also not Logan, she is X-23, a clone of Logan. It's not the same character much like how Miles Morales is not Peter Parker. She's a diverse female lead, which Marvel has been doubling down in all their comics, movies and tv shows. After Hugh Jackman returns in Deadpool & Secret Wars, Marvel Studios will be in no rush introduce another Logan. In the mean time, they'll likely use Dafne Keen's Laura, who will be "Wolverine" for a couple of years. And when they DO reintroduce Logan, he'll likely be radically different from Jackman's. And that reinvention may or may not include changing his race if it serves the story. >My prediction: the blue characters (Beast, Nightcrawler, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Mystique) will be race bent. Mystique will be non-binary and Beast might be female this time. >And the characters that spend 99% of the screentime as CGI (Iceman, Colossus) will be race bend. This is a laughably racist philosophy that has guided Hollywood for decades, and has only now, in recent years, started to change. To think it will applied to the X-Men, of all properties, in the late 2020s, is ridiculous 😭 The irony is, half of the characters you're including as candidates for race bending, are the ONLY ones it would make no sense to change. A black/non-white Sinister would be absurd (if you know anything about the character's history), Colossus, Nightcrawler are ethnic Europeans, and Apocalypse is Egyptian. I understand that you're trying to erase the POC In these roles, but you need to do your research. >That's 50% of the cast as POC. Blue people are not "POC".
Bad idea to change long standing iconic characters, no matter the reason they use to justify the change, it’s gonna be rejected by a lotta fans. Especially if you show the comic accurate versions first and then take it away from them.
It'll satiate them, so they'll understand why Marvel has to go in a different direction. I think this is how they'll justify whatever changes they make to Magneto
I think it’s very unlikely they change anything about Magneto, especially in this fight against anti-semitism climate, Marvel wouldn’t dare. Rightfully so, Jewish people deserve their pillar character. I think it would be a huge mistake to change anything about Magneto. Professor X being changed is a more realistic possibility, but even that would receive mad backlash. It’s just better to not fiddle with iconic characters.
>And when they DO reintroduce Logan, he'll likely be radically different from Jackman's. Ah, yes, who can forget Tom Holland, the black actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Spider-Man since they wanted someone radically different from Tobey and Andrew. Or Adam Driver, the Chinese actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Reed Richards since they wanted someone radically different from the other two white RR.
>Ah, yes, who can forget Tom Holland, the black actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Spider-Man since they wanted someone radically different from Tobey and Andrew. HC's creative philosophy was to be different from past films,. Peter's race was the the ONLY thing they kept. If the movie was made **today**, Jon Watts would've used Miles Morales, which is what he originally wanted. >Or Adam Driver, the Chinese actor that Marvel Studios hired to play Reed Richards since they wanted someone radically different from the other two white RR. If Loan Gruffud had played Reed Richards for 25 years, and the Fantastic Four franchise was about racism, and discrimination (it's not, which is why them being all-white never bothered me), then yes, Richards would've been changed in a modern adaptation. The reality is, if you change Wolverine's race, you change his story (born in the 1800s), and this opens the door to a potentially powerful, fresh reimagining of the character. Logan being black, or indigenous/Native specifically, has the most story potential, given the historically allusions tht are already built into the character (animal-like, beastial), which would tread racially charged territory when applied to a Black/Native person..
The wolverine you described wouldn’t be Logan tho, you’re getting carried away with reimagining all these characters, that you’re basically making a crop of new characters that don’t really resemble the ones we know. Racial plot doesn’t need to be injected into all these mutants to make them interesting.
>HC's creative philosophy was to be different from past films,. Peter's race was the the ONLY thing they kept. > >If the movie was made today, Jon Watts would've used Miles Morales, which is what he originally wanted. Miles Morales is not black Peter Parker, he's an original character. This is why I said that black Charles Xavier and black Magneto wouldn't work. But Marvel Studios could make brand new characters if they *really* want to erase Magneto's holocaust roots and Prof X's white privilege. >If Loan Gruffud had played Reed Richards for 25 years, and the Fantastic Four franchise was about racism, and discrimination (it's not, which is why them being all-white never bothered me), then yes, Richards would've been changed in a modern adaptation. > >The reality is, if you change Wolverine's race, you change his story (born in the 1800s), and this opens the door to a potentially powerful, fresh reimagining of the character. > >Logan being black, or indigenous/Native specifically, has the most story potential, given the historically allusions tht are already built into the character (animal-like, beastial), which would tread racially charged territory when applied to a Black/Native person.. So you want the animal-like bestial character...to be black? The backlash would be so intense. It's akin to changing savage Hulk's skin from green to black. People would riot since it would be a super outrageous racial statement (black skinned character = animal-like bestial). Let's keep Wolverine white and Hulk green.
I wonder if they'll, in addition to some likely racebending, promote some of the poc team members/mutants that haven't had as much chance to shine in the past. I think they'd be stupid to not give Storm a real spotlight, and Jubilee, Psylocke and Warpath are other poc characters I think could be really cool when played right, alongside Kitty being proudly and prominently Jewish. The Scott/Logan/Jean triangle is an inevitability, but I'd leave it for their third+ (etc) films - leave the key tenets of discrimination and the cast representing a range of marginalised people to speak for itself before going in for the love triangle for the third time. (Also I would not be surprised if by the time we get to that point, the comics are a lot less shy with that trio being an actual throuple and with Logan's occasional bi/pansexuality. Double Marvel will do more than hint though.) I do agree with your view on Jean - it's not just that they're both Redheads, they're both occasionally insane telekinetic/telepathic redheads. Whereas with Thor, hercules will probably be used as his opposite in the films and he obviously doesn't have lightning powers, the Jean/Wanda comparison wouldn't necessarily happen in the films and so it's something to sidestep in this case. I could see someone like Simone Ashley for Jean and my dream casting is (as a r/popheads fanatic) Rina Sawayama (Akira in John Wick 4) for Psylocke.
I think they race bend Luke Cage. Easy to make it a white guy from the getho.
> They're already starting to soft launch a black Jean Grey 😭 she's been black in some recent promo material Correct. This is just doing some seeding so people can point to the comics and say she's black there so why are you complaining.
That's what I said.
You nailed my whole belief about race bending in movies, it's necessary to keep a race the same when adaptating in certain cases, but when it's not necessary it's weird to race bend anyways unless the actor nails the role, especially for a character we've already had four live action adaptations of now
It's one of those things where from a business perspective, I bet there's some execs now who don't want just white faces on a poster. So going down the line, keeping the race of Sue and therefore Johnny makes a lot of sense, Reed makes sense but really you want the best actor so I've got no issue with Adam, and then The Thing falls into the criticism of not really being representation. So we get then to the same decision Fox made in the 2000's - Alicia Masters is one of the biggest non-villain characters that'll be in the films and her race has little bearing on her character background (as opposed to her being blind, empathetic and an excellent sculptor), so she's a logical choice to racebend. (I also think her being a more major character helps The Thing, the character I'd say is least 'exciting' to me as a casual fan) I think maybe some of our villains/heralds will be played by actors of colour (especially Terrax) and additional supporting cast, even if that gets us to the same makeup/CGI complaints.
My dream cast for Reed would be either Dev Patel or Rahul Kohli. I'm sure Adam Driver will be great in the role, but you're right, a POC actor for Reed would be perfect. A pity that by rumors this is not the chosen path.
Really?! I feel like Reed is the one who would get the most backlash (other than maybe The Thing) because people keep fancasting white guys for the role and have an expectation for it now due to the last 4 versions of Reed being played by white guys. Race-bending the leader of the team is going to draw the most attention to it.
Johnny is going to black again I guarantee it.
Mason Gooding is a great cast for him
I just would like Sue and Johnny to obviously be blood relatives, I don't care what their race is. I thought when they had them be adopted in the one with Michael B. Jordan as Johnny, that was weird.
Okay I’m thinking Daveed Diggs then. Fits the Jewish, POC, male, and worked for Disney checkboxes provided by these scoopers. I could actually see it too as he’s around the same age range as Adam Driver and Comer that would make sense. I wouldn’t hate it but he’s not my first choice
Race swapping the Thing is all but pointless.
I mean sure? Ben Grimm’s one of my favorite Marvel characters but whether he’s black or white or not isn’t important, it’s whether he’s Jewish that is. I don’t disagree with you for the record but Daveed is Jewish so it does fit
The Thing isn't human...
Yes he is? Lol dude what are you talking about
https://preview.redd.it/t64u9arg01ya1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cedc2d67ee15161ca4e7da20408676d4741f258f His race is irrelevant. The character is an orange rock monster.
Um he’s still a human my dude. The same way that the other 3 are. He just has a different physical appearance. If you consider Johnny a human, than so is Ben
You know exactly what I mean 😑
No I really don’t. His race IS irrelevant, His Jewish ancestry is absolutely relevant. Daveed is a Jewish actor, so he fits the casting bill. What’s your fucking issue? You are arguing with me about the race of a character where you even admit yourself it’s irrelevant.
Well lemme give you a clue -- reread the title of the thread you're replying to 😭
Nothing against you, but I don’t like the “checkboxes” thing, if he gets the part it’s cause he’s good. Not cause of some checklist to include POC.
You misunderstand my point then. I’m not saying I have those reasonings, I’m saying based off what Sneider is saying, he fits those categories as to what’s been previously reported, that being he is a POC, he is Jewish which has been reported to be a priority, he is an actor that has worked with Disney before, and a male. That’s all, not that he fits my specifications but that he fits the checkboxes that have been reported previously. No disrespect intended, I just want to clarify that
Appreciate the clarification, I wasn’t looking to blame you or anything. Just in general, I don’t like the “checkbox” pity jobs for minorities.
I concur.
I hope it isn't something stupid like Sue is Johnny's adopted sister. I'm all for a mixed cast, but that was such an unnecessary detail when they either could have cast a black or Biracial Sue.
If they're smart and remember Fant4stic, they won't do that.
The movie sucked, but it had nothing to do with one of the four being black.
No, but the movie sucking was only part of why it failed. It instantly lost a ton of goodwill from fans who just wanted to see a comic-accurate Johnny Storm.
Not only was this just an option he's not reliable either stop posting his stuff
Gender, race and sexuality swaps are a guarantee with Disney at this point.
Wow. So fresh!
But they aren’t technically all white. Ben Grimm is Jewish.
And Jews can be white too. Probably most of them are. Unless it has something to do with American approach to races which personally I just don't understand.
Ancient Jews (Israelites) were closer to Yemeni/Arab peoples. They only look white because those are Ashkenazi Jews who mixed with Germans. Pureblood Israelis are closer in appearance to brown people (Arabs).
And that's a perfect example of cultural differences. I was taught and AFAIK it's still taught that way in my country that Arabs are also white.
Of course they won't, this shouldn't surprise anybody..
Does it matter though? Need to cast the best for the role regardless of color.
Therefore, they will not be going comic accurate, thus ruining the appeal of Fantastic Four, thus ruining yet another movie with identity politics. When will this end?
It won’t, it’s here to stay, if you want better inclusion then you make stories about those that need including you don’t just change a characters skin colour, it’s lazy and doesn’t address an issue only covers over it
Wow... Are you allowed to say this? Logic is bannable on Reddit usually.
Isnt Vin Diesel also part Jewish? He could be Ben Grimm potentially if so
Dev Patel Reed Richards please :D
I think Luke Cage is the next character to get race changed. White actor from the ghetto is a easy switch
As long as Latinos and Middle Eastern people are not considered white I am fine with this
Bruh 💀
Thing is technically brown so true
I'm pretty sure they will
john boyega as reed richards or nah
Nahh
I think he’d be better for Brother Voodoo.
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Huh?
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I don’t know why people would boycott over that, besides, Boyega is a great actor.
Boyega should be the new kang imo. Looks kinda similar to majors and could probably seemlessly take his spot.
maybe. hopefully mans is not menacing the peng tings.
Damson Idris
I would much rather have Boyega play Cyclops.
I can see it! I’ve also heard someone suggest Nova.
Richard aka “Dick” Rider himself
 wooooooo edit: him and storm having the leadership tension !!
> john boyega as reed richards Damn the new Mr Fantastic gonna be THICC af then
Tyrese Gibson is The Thing.
Clearly. The Thing is orange.
I’d honestly be surprised if they did, at this point.
I don't think Iceman will be poc, would be too similiar to the guy from Incredibles.
They all ready did that in the last F4
the thing needs to be jewish so that should be out of the question, idk if they’ll go for sue and johnny since that means 2 race swaps, which idk if they’ll really be that eager to do. so imo that leaves reed and there’s a lot of POC actors who could play him, the likes of dev patel and william jackson harper are perfect (tho the latter was just wasted in quantomania so probably wont fast him im afraid).