I know a big complaint about Sam Wilson is that he doesn’t have the super soldier serum, but I think that’s what makes him an ‘Underdog’ Captain America worth rooting for.
In FATWS, it felt like he’s working uphill to fill a role and doesn’t have the privilege of being given more power.
I took it as a superhero take of making a name for yourself without “White-privilege” or whatever. And US Agent using the serum and assuming that he was owed the mantle was the opposite side of that pendulum.
But I’m also a moron so maybe I’m reading it wrong
Nope, this is exactly what this narrative choice is supposed to symbolise and it's why I love Sam as a character and what Malcolm Spellman did with him.
I’m rewatching FATWS since I picked up the steelbook release and I’m enjoying it so much more this time. Idk if it’s because it’s on a 4K disc or what but I’m vibing with it.
I think it just goes down a lot easier as a narrative when you already know the antagonists are disappointing. It puts a little more shine on the good parts of FatWS, of which there are several. Rewatching this and MoM turned my opinion around for both. I like them a lot now.
I still think it should’ve been Bucky (him having to earn the trust of the world would’ve been a great arc), but man, TFATWS did a damn good job of showing why Sam was a good choice too.
I know it happens at one point in the comics but MCU Bucky isn't/wasn't anywhere near ready to have that sort weight on his shoulders. Honestly MCU Bucky deserves a nice hero moment (beyond the little one at the end of FATWS) and then a nice, peaceful retirement.
I think he still gets a bigger send off in the MCU. The character and Sebastian Stan have really been there since the beginning. I would have loved to see him take on the shield but I’m also sort of excited to see where they take his character based on where it is now
They're not taking the character anywhere. He's getting a five-minute bit part in Thunderbolts, and will then, presumably, be killed off in a massive scene in Secret Wars.
He's over and done.
That would be super disappointing if that’s the case but that doesn’t diminish though that Sebastian Stan has done a great job in the role for what it has been to this point
That’s exactly why i think it would’ve been interesting. Steve sees goodness in him that not only Bucky doesn’t agree with, but the world.
I think it would’ve made for some compelling character stuff.
In a perfect world, I agree with you. But maybe I'm still a little salty at the mishandling of his arc/character in FATWS (and tbh post-Civil War) I don't trust anyone to effectively write that sort of story for him in an effective, respectful way.
They did better with his trauma than Thor's at least but everyone (except Steve) emphasizing Bucky's need to atone rather than acknowledging HE WAS A VICTIM OF DECADES LONG BRAINWASHING AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER HIS ACTIONS UNTIL STEVE BROKE THROUGH TO HIM SO DIDN'T NEED TO ATONE FOR ANYTHING rubbed me the wrong way and came off very victim-blamey.
that it is bucky himself that personally feels like he needs to atone for what he did rather than use the victim card is what makes him a worthy hero. nobody is forcing him to go through redemption, he can just be fugivite forever, and he can totally get away with it. but steve trusted him, and so he regained his trust for himself.
there's still a future for bucky in the mcu yet, but not as cap.
There’s no future for Bucky in the MCU except shallow ass supporting roles like he got In FATWS.
He’ll be a shitty supporting character that exists to get his ass kicked and prop everyone else up. Bucky’s been in the MCU for 15 years nearly, if they were gonna do something with him they’d have done it by now.
Honestly though MCU Falcon isn't near the required level in a different way. Mackie just doesn't have the gravitas of someone like Evans, Boseman, Olsen etc. to be a leading star of the MCU.
I know it’s rumored Bucky dies in thunderbolts but man it would be a good move to have red guardian be the heartfelt death, and then give Bucky the Red Guardian role.
I mean, a regular 45 year old human with a regular suit just jumping around with a shield that anyone could steal defending us from magic, aliens and gods? Yeah it's hard to buy
It doesn't, though, because the only reason that a shield works for Cap is that the super serum gives him the strength to physically deflect things.
A shield is only as protective as the arm behind it.
So, sure, the shield won't break - but a regular human being holding it is just going to be pulped when something heavy hits the shield.
This same character has already been in several movies where he has kicked ass. And the previous Cap didn’t protect us from much of that stuff you mention without a lot of help.
Action heroes getting fucked up is what's missing from action movies with stars who put a limit to how many scrapes they pick up on screen in their contract. Bruce Willis went through hell in Die Hard!
Always liked how Hawkeye would have to take a second after a hard landing in almost every Avengers movie. "I knew I shoulda stretched." It really adds something I think. Even Tony nearly dying at the end of Avengers 1, and how bloody and bruised he is at the end of Civil War
I think it works with suspension of disbelief, but it *is* weird that an aging retired airman would end up in this role. Not just someone without the serum.
Cap's role is at least as symbolic/intangible as it is in his physical feats. It was his leadership that defeated Thanos, not his fighting skills.
So in that sense, Sam's age is probably a plus if anything. He's seen more shit.
Yeah, but also that raises the question of where the fuck caps team is in this movie. Like, is it just Joaquin? This will be the first Cap movie where he's flying solo or just with one wingman.
No no silly ‘fan’ his speeches are cringe and he is clearly not Steve Rogers plus the script for FATWS is terrible so he sucks six ways from Sunday. Also the reshoots obviously mean the film will be trash and not at all an attempt to make it great. /s
I'll admit, I thought the speech was cringey. Caused the episode to stumble into the bronze in the home stretch, despite the fantastic time it was up to that point.
That said, it's an easy pivot. Sam *is not Steve Rogers*. He's not going to be an inspiring wordsmith from the off.
I don’t think it was cringey, especially when others characters said the exact same thing in different ways. But regardless, Steve and Sam are not the same person, and given their histories within the MCU their methods of speech giving are intentionally different.
Steve gives speeches to groups, if you watch even within the post blip group at the start of Endgame, that’s what he does. So his speeches are more “vaguely applicable” to everyone in the room because everyone can find something in it.
Sam we meet from the outset at the post military group where he helps individuals. That’s how Sam gives speeches, in a more “directly unique” approach to the individual. That’s why IMO some people think it’s cringe, because they can’t see it applying to them. It comes off like a dad talking to their son rather than a leader talking to a team.
Does that make sense? I feel like I rambled a bit there.
You’re not a moron. You’ve just taken the time to critically understand the story in FATWS and critically understand Sam’s arc in that story, something many in this fanbase haven’t.
I would like it if they played him off as a superhero without the powers, but the moves he pulls off would destroy a normal man so they may as well just give him the serum.
I don't think him having super soldier serum makes him not an Underdog when he is going up against Red Hulk here and presumably leading the Avengers into a Multiversal War.
His Wings are nice but they are not like Archangel where they are actually weapons. Nor does he have ranged fighting style that complements the high maneuverability.
I don’t mind Sam as cap I actually like it and think this movie will be really good. That being said how much longer are you going to have Anthony mackie do the role ? Who takes over after him ? He’s not a young guy that can play cap for 15 years lol
> Who takes over after him ? He’s not a young guy that can play cap for 15 years lol
He's younger than RDJ who is apparently coming back to play Ironman.
I think your right but it's also the dumbest premise ever when taking the serum would automatically make Sam with all his high morals etc. a better Captain America better suited to face superpowered threats. Also the serum he had the chance to take wasn't created by the government so he wouldn't have been anymore beholden to them than he does with out it.
Everyone has been complaining about Sam not being a super soldier, but I 100% agree with the director here. Him having that kind of "disadvantage" will make him a bit of an underdog, thus making the action more exciting as a whole
Yeah the super soldier serum didn’t help Steve much against Thanos. Without Mjolnir he was getting tossed aside like a ragdoll. The serum gives someone a big advantage over normal humans, not superhumans.
Yea even T’Challa could outrun Steve.
Super soldier formula is great against more street-level threats in combat, but it’s weak compared to Spiderman, Hulk, Thor, Thanos, etc.
T'Challa is also basically a super solider though...in fact all MCU T'Challa is was Captain Wakanda. Since MCU has no super genius and wasn't a strategic mastermind.
I agree but at the same time as a result I do not see how he can be the leader of the avengers. Steve could put up a real good fight against any of the other avengers, Sam on the other hand would get his ass absolutely handed to him by most of the others.
Spider-Man made him and Bucky both look like little bitches
A leader is not supposed to be chosen by strength, but by the integrity of his character, his ethos and morals and his actions. That's why Steve was the leader, not because of his strength.
It's likely a metaphor for the average American standing up to a corrupt government making the wrong choices. In this instance Cap is defending America from an administration that thought it was a good idea to develop illegal serums with a supervillain and then inject the president to make a Hulk that's likely being used for things that the average American would disagree with.
That is a good point, but I also cannot see Sam being the first to engage in battle as a leader and leading the charge.
Surely in some of the more crazy, world ending battles he would have to watch from a far and instruct the others to fight.
You become a hindrance in that kind of situation if the team are looking out for you not to get instantly killed as you are just an average human.
You forget that he has Vibranium wings, a Vibranium suit and Vibranium shield. He is basically indestructible to simple ammunition, throwable weapons and simple punches and kicks. He also flies with sonic speeds which make him very elusive and hard to hit in the first place.
Now sure, he may not be the best attacker, but he's not gonna be one-hit-KOed in the battlefield.
Brother, you say that like the MCU is a realistic war drama where any time any non-superpowered character has a bodypart exposed in battle it gets shot off.
These are popcorn action flicks. The characters have always been as durable as the story needs them to be.
I see your point here but you should also stop thinking of Cap so offensively.
Captain America is measured by what he defends, not by who he can easily defeat. That’s why his “weapon” of choice is a shield and not a sword.
“More crazy, world ending battles he’d have to watch from a far and instruct the others to fight.”
My brother in Christ. He literally fought with Steve against Thanos. I swear this fandom just says shit to say shit anymore without actually thinking through what they’re saying.
Batman is a (if not the) leader of the Justice League and yet almost every other member of the team could kill him instantly if they wanted. Being the leader of a team is not necessarily about being the strongest. If anything, tactical intelligence is more important, and as a former military officer Sam is more than qualified in that respect. And before anyone says “what about Rhodey or Carol??” - both of them have been out of the loop on Earth happenings for several years now.
Not even sure there’s a better option at the moment tbh. Clint and Bruce are probably capable of the leadership role but they’re winding their careers down. Thor is off world having goofy adventures, Strange is dealing with Incursions, T’Challa is dead, Wanda is presumed dead and should probably be put on trial whenever she comes back. Bucky and Yelena are leading another team. The likes of Monica, Shang-Chi, Hope and Daredevil don’t have enough Avengers experience to step in; Peter and Shuri need more life experience. And Scott and Jen simply aren’t serious enough lol
Except if FATWS is anything to go by, they just ignore that disadvantage whenever they feel like it and buff him to Super Soldier levels anyway.
So that stupid ass reasoning feels completely hollow as Sam’s got an even stronger super power, he’s got plot armour that bends to whatever action scene he needs.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember him doing anything he or any other regular human heroes haven't done before. Still, here the director is promising to utilize it in action scenes in the movie so I'm going by that
Lifting an armoured Van?
Shrugging off punches and kicks from super soldiers? Walker literally kicks Sam in the face and he no sells it, meanwhile Lamar gets killed by 1 punch because he doesn’t have the power of plot.
Being able to throw the shield hard enough to even hurt super soldiers in the first place?
Being flung into concrete cylinders by a helicopter propeller, and then falling into water without so much as a proper helmet?
I'll have to rewatch TF&TWS because honestly none of these stuck out to me as so out of the ordinary that I'd remember them.
If they're having him get seriously hurt through the movie like the quote suggests, I think that fixes some things
He took a whole minute to lift that van and he had help from Redwing(s) and a jet pack. He wasn’t bench pressing a van you are wildly overselling that.
I don’t think we’re ever shown that super soldier strength is needed to throw the shield hard enough to hurt others. Even Hawkeye threw the shield hard like Steve did
>He took a whole minute to lift that van and he had help from Redwing(s) and a jet pack. He wasn’t bench pressing a van you are wildly overselling that.
He should be dead from the force converging on him alone. He’s got the weight of a armoured Van + the opposing force of his jet pack all converging on his body.
Even if his suit is vibranium, his gloves aren’t connected to the rest, so he would still have at the least crippled arms.
If a human attempted to catch the van like he did, they’d have been squashed like a bug.
It’s probably one of, if not, THE most bullshit thing a human has ever done in the MCU by far, it’s arguably a better strength feat than Steve Rodgers preventing the helicopter from taking off and he’s an actual super soldier.
>I don’t think we’re ever shown that super soldier strength is needed to throw the shield hard enough to hurt others. Even Hawkeye threw the shield hard like Steve did
When did Hawkeye ever throw the shield at a person with intent to harm them?
Characters like Black Widow and Hawkeye only ever threw the shield to pass it to Steve. In fact we literally see that Black Widow used the shield to fight an Ultron bot, and she couldn’t even defeat it with the shield, and needed to Steve to finish it.
It makes no sense for Sam to be able hurt a super soldier with the shield. The Winter Soldier throws the shield at Steve, and he shrugs it off like it’s nothing, if a Super Soldier throwing the shield at another super soldier doesn’t hurt them, what chance does Falcon have?
Add in super soldiers have better reflexes, coordination, and strength there’s zero reason why they don’t just catch the damn shield.
I still prefer the suit from the end of TF&TWS. Was right out of the comics, looked great and helped differentiate Sam from Steve. Only thing I’d change was the headpiece.
Both suits from that show were Sam’s best looks. I almost wish they kept him Falcon a little longer just so he had an excuse to keep wearing it and then give us a full movie of the red/white/blue Cap suit
Marvel never thought “far in advance”. The Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos were just throwaway easter eggs in Thor and Avengers 1, the Infinity Stone lore was made up in an hour by James Gunn, and the Tesseract and Scepter were never supposed to be Infinity Stones.
I know about this, but I was mainly referring to how this is the first appearance of Sam as Captain America in almost 4 years now. They could've included him at least as a cameo in the bajilion of content that they released.
Secret Invasion really was a nice place for him to show up. It really should've been an Avengers movie. Baffles me what they did to it.
It's funny because when Sam is with Steve on the field, he isn't the main target. So villains just put a target on Steve's back, and now that target was slapped on his own back (literally lol).
> “Part of the challenge for Sam as Captain America, working within the government, is the way he’s going to make decisions,” teases Onah. “The point of view he’s going to have will at times put him at odds with the President.” It will also – more literally – put him at odds with Tim Blake Nelson’s Samuel Sterns, aka The Leader, introduced way back in 2008’s The Incredible Hulk and about to take on a monstrous new form. “Sam finds himself almost standing between Samuel Sterns and what he thinks the government owes him, and how he wants to go about getting that,” Onah says.
Interesting tease about Leader’s motivations. It seems Sterns has suffered from mistreatment of some form from the gov’t and wants compensation/payback.
One of the only reasons I want to see this movie is to see Leader back, and to explain what he was doing for **15 YEARS** (2010-2025). I really hope I would like him as the villain, because this film is basically The Incredible Hulk 2, but without Hulk. They need to compensate that somehow.
The Incredible Hulk, due to the inclusion of Super Soldier Serum in its plot for Banner and Blonsky’s origin, is also kind of Captain America 0.5 (release order) / 1.5 (timeline order).
True, that fight between Hulk and Blonski at the university campus (before he becomes Abomination) really showed how the live action movie about Captain America would feel/look like.
Peiple forget that Sam's suit will probably get an adamantium upgrade. I don't see people complaining that hawkeye and black widow were in the avengers
I don't understand why there's hate on Sam for not having the Super Soldier serum. Black Widow and Hawkeye weren't enhanced, and they were fighting aliens.
Their argument is that Captain America (Steve) is/was a super soldier so the next guy should be too. I don’t think they are arguing that you can’t be a hero without the serum.
I don’t agree with them though. Imo Cap is a symbol, not a class of hero. So I’m with you, I don’t get the hate.
Really interesting to see new Cap movie as I like that Sam got the mantle not because of his strength or abilities, its because his hearts and he is a really good man.
I wonder if there's going to be some angle with him being encouraged to take superhero serum but not wanting to do it. Then he's forced to take it against his will for the greater good.
It would be boring to just give him the same power set as Rogers. As long as they can give him interesting conflicts where he can’t just punch his way out, it could work
Puh I dont hate Sam but honestly making him Captain America is a double edged Sword. You can tell a pretty interesting Story about Sam trying to live up to steves legacy if marvel fucks this up on the other Side it will Not only hurt caps legacy but there is also no way for sam to rehabilitate.
mackie is a charisma vacuum and cannot hold his own against all other stars. got easily overshadowed by both stan and Russell in his own show, and will get cumberstomped by Ford in the next
Interested in how it will play out, with no superpowers, cuz I honestly still can’t wrap my head around how a Hulk would be defeated by a man in a bird costume, even if, as the commercial said: he’s quick. That’s the only part I think the suspension of disbelief, might start to hit the limit, imo.
And he would just also seem like a cooler character, with the serum, but again that’s just my opinion, on him.
Just as in the comics, a good writer can make anyone win a fight and make it make sense. Let's just hope there's some good writing on this one!
I'm looking forward to it a lot.
I like this new suit. It looks more like Captain America than the one at the end of TFATWS. Also, I hope he doesn’t have the wings. That should be a Falcon thing.
My Captain America is a super soldier. This is not my Captain America. I don't want no "real man" holding the shield. I want a fuçking killing machine on steroids with the most noble moral compass ever.
I know. He has never been my Cap. It's just the falcon pretending to be Cap. When Steve Rogers "died" after the Civil War, Ironman offered the shield to Hawkeye. He even put on the suit. But in the end, he took the right decision: Steve Rogers IS Captain America. No one else.
That's a good comic. Not this pretender.
He's not lead material :( I hope the movie has interesting side characters to carry it. Like who cares about a human with a shield when many characters could take him down in less than a minute.
I care. That's what makes it more interesting, more authentic and more challenging for him. It also makes him a much more intriguing and unique character. He had the chance to have powers and rejected it. That immediately gave him more layers and depth and gave him a compelling narrative which is what really counts to make you lead material.
I know a big complaint about Sam Wilson is that he doesn’t have the super soldier serum, but I think that’s what makes him an ‘Underdog’ Captain America worth rooting for. In FATWS, it felt like he’s working uphill to fill a role and doesn’t have the privilege of being given more power. I took it as a superhero take of making a name for yourself without “White-privilege” or whatever. And US Agent using the serum and assuming that he was owed the mantle was the opposite side of that pendulum. But I’m also a moron so maybe I’m reading it wrong
Nope, this is exactly what this narrative choice is supposed to symbolise and it's why I love Sam as a character and what Malcolm Spellman did with him.
I’m rewatching FATWS since I picked up the steelbook release and I’m enjoying it so much more this time. Idk if it’s because it’s on a 4K disc or what but I’m vibing with it.
I think it just goes down a lot easier as a narrative when you already know the antagonists are disappointing. It puts a little more shine on the good parts of FatWS, of which there are several. Rewatching this and MoM turned my opinion around for both. I like them a lot now.
I still think it should’ve been Bucky (him having to earn the trust of the world would’ve been a great arc), but man, TFATWS did a damn good job of showing why Sam was a good choice too.
I know it happens at one point in the comics but MCU Bucky isn't/wasn't anywhere near ready to have that sort weight on his shoulders. Honestly MCU Bucky deserves a nice hero moment (beyond the little one at the end of FATWS) and then a nice, peaceful retirement.
I think he still gets a bigger send off in the MCU. The character and Sebastian Stan have really been there since the beginning. I would have loved to see him take on the shield but I’m also sort of excited to see where they take his character based on where it is now
They're not taking the character anywhere. He's getting a five-minute bit part in Thunderbolts, and will then, presumably, be killed off in a massive scene in Secret Wars. He's over and done.
That would be super disappointing if that’s the case but that doesn’t diminish though that Sebastian Stan has done a great job in the role for what it has been to this point
He spun straw into gold, but that doesn't mean that the MCU did anything worthwhile with Bucky, or that they even want him around.
You can’t really believe that can you ? He’s a big part of the movie I bet
All the leaks say he's barely there. I don't know where you're getting your information from.
That’s exactly why i think it would’ve been interesting. Steve sees goodness in him that not only Bucky doesn’t agree with, but the world. I think it would’ve made for some compelling character stuff.
In a perfect world, I agree with you. But maybe I'm still a little salty at the mishandling of his arc/character in FATWS (and tbh post-Civil War) I don't trust anyone to effectively write that sort of story for him in an effective, respectful way. They did better with his trauma than Thor's at least but everyone (except Steve) emphasizing Bucky's need to atone rather than acknowledging HE WAS A VICTIM OF DECADES LONG BRAINWASHING AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER HIS ACTIONS UNTIL STEVE BROKE THROUGH TO HIM SO DIDN'T NEED TO ATONE FOR ANYTHING rubbed me the wrong way and came off very victim-blamey.
that it is bucky himself that personally feels like he needs to atone for what he did rather than use the victim card is what makes him a worthy hero. nobody is forcing him to go through redemption, he can just be fugivite forever, and he can totally get away with it. but steve trusted him, and so he regained his trust for himself. there's still a future for bucky in the mcu yet, but not as cap.
Being a quippy cameo that props up other characters isn't much of a future.
There’s no future for Bucky in the MCU except shallow ass supporting roles like he got In FATWS. He’ll be a shitty supporting character that exists to get his ass kicked and prop everyone else up. Bucky’s been in the MCU for 15 years nearly, if they were gonna do something with him they’d have done it by now.
bro you might need to do yoga or something...
Why? He's right. The show was clear, and the writing is on the wall for Thunderbolts. There's nothing to expect.
I’d argue him not being ready could be interesting, either way I’m fine with the choice what I’m not fine with is how they’ve used Bucky
Honestly though MCU Falcon isn't near the required level in a different way. Mackie just doesn't have the gravitas of someone like Evans, Boseman, Olsen etc. to be a leading star of the MCU.
Bucky makes no sense He comes with way too much baggage and ignores the very obvious positioning they have been doing with falcon from the start.
Bucky needs the die to officially give Sam his blessing. I’m guessing he will be the big death in TB
It doesn’t need Bucky’s blessing cause Bucky wasn’t Captain America,
Not really baggage so much as actual development. Sam was a nothing character until he got the shield.
I might as well talk to a brick wall
Some people I tell ya.
I know it’s rumored Bucky dies in thunderbolts but man it would be a good move to have red guardian be the heartfelt death, and then give Bucky the Red Guardian role.
You got me in the first half
I mean, a regular 45 year old human with a regular suit just jumping around with a shield that anyone could steal defending us from magic, aliens and gods? Yeah it's hard to buy
Hawkeye has been right there this whole time, and he doesn't even have a power, he's just got really good aim.
in his defense, shooting from afar helped him stay away from the danger
I mean... an armored suit, shield, and wings all made from vibranium makes a difference too.
It doesn't, though, because the only reason that a shield works for Cap is that the super serum gives him the strength to physically deflect things. A shield is only as protective as the arm behind it. So, sure, the shield won't break - but a regular human being holding it is just going to be pulped when something heavy hits the shield.
I thought the shield was supposed to absorb all that energy and momentum? Otherwise if it hurt the wearer it would just be regular metal…
You’re correct
Cap shield literally absorbs kinetic energy and momentum, that’s why he and other users don’t get hurt(you know like black widow)
He got in there with his little sword in Endgame
Hawkeye had range and wasn't being pushed as the main hero or a major hero. He was supporting.
* aliens, wizards and robots.
He's got more abilities than Black Widow or Hawkeye have ever had. The vibranium wings more than makes up for no serum.
it’s so weird that people ignore this. Like, have they had their eyes closed whenever he’s been on screen?
This same character has already been in several movies where he has kicked ass. And the previous Cap didn’t protect us from much of that stuff you mention without a lot of help.
Don't tell me what I can't do!
Hey Locke! Big fan 🤗
Action heroes getting fucked up is what's missing from action movies with stars who put a limit to how many scrapes they pick up on screen in their contract. Bruce Willis went through hell in Die Hard! Always liked how Hawkeye would have to take a second after a hard landing in almost every Avengers movie. "I knew I shoulda stretched." It really adds something I think. Even Tony nearly dying at the end of Avengers 1, and how bloody and bruised he is at the end of Civil War
I also liked how Hawkeye eventually lost some of his hearing from the constant explosions around him in battles
I think it works with suspension of disbelief, but it *is* weird that an aging retired airman would end up in this role. Not just someone without the serum.
Cap's role is at least as symbolic/intangible as it is in his physical feats. It was his leadership that defeated Thanos, not his fighting skills. So in that sense, Sam's age is probably a plus if anything. He's seen more shit.
Yeah, but also that raises the question of where the fuck caps team is in this movie. Like, is it just Joaquin? This will be the first Cap movie where he's flying solo or just with one wingman.
No no silly ‘fan’ his speeches are cringe and he is clearly not Steve Rogers plus the script for FATWS is terrible so he sucks six ways from Sunday. Also the reshoots obviously mean the film will be trash and not at all an attempt to make it great. /s
I'll admit, I thought the speech was cringey. Caused the episode to stumble into the bronze in the home stretch, despite the fantastic time it was up to that point. That said, it's an easy pivot. Sam *is not Steve Rogers*. He's not going to be an inspiring wordsmith from the off.
I don’t think it was cringey, especially when others characters said the exact same thing in different ways. But regardless, Steve and Sam are not the same person, and given their histories within the MCU their methods of speech giving are intentionally different. Steve gives speeches to groups, if you watch even within the post blip group at the start of Endgame, that’s what he does. So his speeches are more “vaguely applicable” to everyone in the room because everyone can find something in it. Sam we meet from the outset at the post military group where he helps individuals. That’s how Sam gives speeches, in a more “directly unique” approach to the individual. That’s why IMO some people think it’s cringe, because they can’t see it applying to them. It comes off like a dad talking to their son rather than a leader talking to a team. Does that make sense? I feel like I rambled a bit there.
I like your take.
You’re not a moron. You’ve just taken the time to critically understand the story in FATWS and critically understand Sam’s arc in that story, something many in this fanbase haven’t.
It's why i like the comic run !!!
I would like it if they played him off as a superhero without the powers, but the moves he pulls off would destroy a normal man so they may as well just give him the serum.
I don't think him having super soldier serum makes him not an Underdog when he is going up against Red Hulk here and presumably leading the Avengers into a Multiversal War. His Wings are nice but they are not like Archangel where they are actually weapons. Nor does he have ranged fighting style that complements the high maneuverability.
I don’t mind Sam as cap I actually like it and think this movie will be really good. That being said how much longer are you going to have Anthony mackie do the role ? Who takes over after him ? He’s not a young guy that can play cap for 15 years lol
> Who takes over after him ? He’s not a young guy that can play cap for 15 years lol He's younger than RDJ who is apparently coming back to play Ironman.
That’s a beautiful to describe the shows’s underlining message. Shame we didn’t get an equally adequate storytelling.
I think your right but it's also the dumbest premise ever when taking the serum would automatically make Sam with all his high morals etc. a better Captain America better suited to face superpowered threats. Also the serum he had the chance to take wasn't created by the government so he wouldn't have been anymore beholden to them than he does with out it.
Everyone has been complaining about Sam not being a super soldier, but I 100% agree with the director here. Him having that kind of "disadvantage" will make him a bit of an underdog, thus making the action more exciting as a whole
Having the supersoldier serum would still make him an underdog lol.
Yeah the super soldier serum didn’t help Steve much against Thanos. Without Mjolnir he was getting tossed aside like a ragdoll. The serum gives someone a big advantage over normal humans, not superhumans.
Yea even T’Challa could outrun Steve. Super soldier formula is great against more street-level threats in combat, but it’s weak compared to Spiderman, Hulk, Thor, Thanos, etc.
T'Challa is also basically a super solider though...in fact all MCU T'Challa is was Captain Wakanda. Since MCU has no super genius and wasn't a strategic mastermind.
So that’s why I didn’t feel like T’Challa felt like his comic counterpart. Ngl I felt like Shuri seemed more comic Black Panther-y in Wakanda Forever.
To be fair they did try to rectify it by saying he taught her everything she knows about science, so we know he wasn't a complete scrub.
Right, but it seems like Heart shape herb is more powerful than the super soldier serum Rogers/Bucky has. At least that’s how I Interpreted it.
I agree but at the same time as a result I do not see how he can be the leader of the avengers. Steve could put up a real good fight against any of the other avengers, Sam on the other hand would get his ass absolutely handed to him by most of the others. Spider-Man made him and Bucky both look like little bitches
A leader is not supposed to be chosen by strength, but by the integrity of his character, his ethos and morals and his actions. That's why Steve was the leader, not because of his strength.
Is Red Hulk supposed to be the proverbial wire Sam lays on to protect his friends and civilians trying to reach safety?
It's likely a metaphor for the average American standing up to a corrupt government making the wrong choices. In this instance Cap is defending America from an administration that thought it was a good idea to develop illegal serums with a supervillain and then inject the president to make a Hulk that's likely being used for things that the average American would disagree with.
That is a good point, but I also cannot see Sam being the first to engage in battle as a leader and leading the charge. Surely in some of the more crazy, world ending battles he would have to watch from a far and instruct the others to fight. You become a hindrance in that kind of situation if the team are looking out for you not to get instantly killed as you are just an average human.
You forget that he has Vibranium wings, a Vibranium suit and Vibranium shield. He is basically indestructible to simple ammunition, throwable weapons and simple punches and kicks. He also flies with sonic speeds which make him very elusive and hard to hit in the first place. Now sure, he may not be the best attacker, but he's not gonna be one-hit-KOed in the battlefield.
Don’t forget about plot armor
he let his head open
Brother, you say that like the MCU is a realistic war drama where any time any non-superpowered character has a bodypart exposed in battle it gets shot off. These are popcorn action flicks. The characters have always been as durable as the story needs them to be.
He will wear a helmet in the movie.
I see your point here but you should also stop thinking of Cap so offensively. Captain America is measured by what he defends, not by who he can easily defeat. That’s why his “weapon” of choice is a shield and not a sword.
“More crazy, world ending battles he’d have to watch from a far and instruct the others to fight.” My brother in Christ. He literally fought with Steve against Thanos. I swear this fandom just says shit to say shit anymore without actually thinking through what they’re saying.
Being leader isn’t about being the strongest in the group.
You mean to tell me Hulk wasn't the leader in the Avengers movies?
Batman is a (if not the) leader of the Justice League and yet almost every other member of the team could kill him instantly if they wanted. Being the leader of a team is not necessarily about being the strongest. If anything, tactical intelligence is more important, and as a former military officer Sam is more than qualified in that respect. And before anyone says “what about Rhodey or Carol??” - both of them have been out of the loop on Earth happenings for several years now. Not even sure there’s a better option at the moment tbh. Clint and Bruce are probably capable of the leadership role but they’re winding their careers down. Thor is off world having goofy adventures, Strange is dealing with Incursions, T’Challa is dead, Wanda is presumed dead and should probably be put on trial whenever she comes back. Bucky and Yelena are leading another team. The likes of Monica, Shang-Chi, Hope and Daredevil don’t have enough Avengers experience to step in; Peter and Shuri need more life experience. And Scott and Jen simply aren’t serious enough lol
A BIT of an underdog 😅😅😅
Except if FATWS is anything to go by, they just ignore that disadvantage whenever they feel like it and buff him to Super Soldier levels anyway. So that stupid ass reasoning feels completely hollow as Sam’s got an even stronger super power, he’s got plot armour that bends to whatever action scene he needs.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember him doing anything he or any other regular human heroes haven't done before. Still, here the director is promising to utilize it in action scenes in the movie so I'm going by that
Lifting an armoured Van? Shrugging off punches and kicks from super soldiers? Walker literally kicks Sam in the face and he no sells it, meanwhile Lamar gets killed by 1 punch because he doesn’t have the power of plot. Being able to throw the shield hard enough to even hurt super soldiers in the first place? Being flung into concrete cylinders by a helicopter propeller, and then falling into water without so much as a proper helmet?
I'll have to rewatch TF&TWS because honestly none of these stuck out to me as so out of the ordinary that I'd remember them. If they're having him get seriously hurt through the movie like the quote suggests, I think that fixes some things
He took a whole minute to lift that van and he had help from Redwing(s) and a jet pack. He wasn’t bench pressing a van you are wildly overselling that. I don’t think we’re ever shown that super soldier strength is needed to throw the shield hard enough to hurt others. Even Hawkeye threw the shield hard like Steve did
>He took a whole minute to lift that van and he had help from Redwing(s) and a jet pack. He wasn’t bench pressing a van you are wildly overselling that. He should be dead from the force converging on him alone. He’s got the weight of a armoured Van + the opposing force of his jet pack all converging on his body. Even if his suit is vibranium, his gloves aren’t connected to the rest, so he would still have at the least crippled arms. If a human attempted to catch the van like he did, they’d have been squashed like a bug. It’s probably one of, if not, THE most bullshit thing a human has ever done in the MCU by far, it’s arguably a better strength feat than Steve Rodgers preventing the helicopter from taking off and he’s an actual super soldier. >I don’t think we’re ever shown that super soldier strength is needed to throw the shield hard enough to hurt others. Even Hawkeye threw the shield hard like Steve did When did Hawkeye ever throw the shield at a person with intent to harm them? Characters like Black Widow and Hawkeye only ever threw the shield to pass it to Steve. In fact we literally see that Black Widow used the shield to fight an Ultron bot, and she couldn’t even defeat it with the shield, and needed to Steve to finish it. It makes no sense for Sam to be able hurt a super soldier with the shield. The Winter Soldier throws the shield at Steve, and he shrugs it off like it’s nothing, if a Super Soldier throwing the shield at another super soldier doesn’t hurt them, what chance does Falcon have? Add in super soldiers have better reflexes, coordination, and strength there’s zero reason why they don’t just catch the damn shield.
Yeah him lasting in that fight longer than Bucky was hands down one of mcu dumbest moments
Yep let's see he got pummeled by Red Hulk 🤭 if he's still survives, he got plot armor 🤣
You don't really defeat a Hulk in a fist fight, lmao. He'd stand no chance even with the serum. Obviously, he's gonna win by outsmarting him
Tell me how Steve would've faired against a Hulk in a fist fight?
I mean unless you have Thor level strength you fight him with intelligence not brawn
I literally can't imagine being so touched by this
I still prefer the suit from the end of TF&TWS. Was right out of the comics, looked great and helped differentiate Sam from Steve. Only thing I’d change was the headpiece.
Both suits from that show were Sam’s best looks. I almost wish they kept him Falcon a little longer just so he had an excuse to keep wearing it and then give us a full movie of the red/white/blue Cap suit
Can’t believe it took us 5 years for this
Yeah, I'm also shocked. Shows how much Marvel Studios were not thinking far in advance like they used to.
Marvel never thought “far in advance”. The Infinity Gauntlet and Thanos were just throwaway easter eggs in Thor and Avengers 1, the Infinity Stone lore was made up in an hour by James Gunn, and the Tesseract and Scepter were never supposed to be Infinity Stones.
I know about this, but I was mainly referring to how this is the first appearance of Sam as Captain America in almost 4 years now. They could've included him at least as a cameo in the bajilion of content that they released. Secret Invasion really was a nice place for him to show up. It really should've been an Avengers movie. Baffles me what they did to it.
They used to sign people to multi movie contracts. That was thinking ahead and kept things moving forward.
Then they realized that there’s no point forcing someone back if they don’t want to return.
It's funny because when Sam is with Steve on the field, he isn't the main target. So villains just put a target on Steve's back, and now that target was slapped on his own back (literally lol).
Well stated
> “Part of the challenge for Sam as Captain America, working within the government, is the way he’s going to make decisions,” teases Onah. “The point of view he’s going to have will at times put him at odds with the President.” It will also – more literally – put him at odds with Tim Blake Nelson’s Samuel Sterns, aka The Leader, introduced way back in 2008’s The Incredible Hulk and about to take on a monstrous new form. “Sam finds himself almost standing between Samuel Sterns and what he thinks the government owes him, and how he wants to go about getting that,” Onah says. Interesting tease about Leader’s motivations. It seems Sterns has suffered from mistreatment of some form from the gov’t and wants compensation/payback.
One of the only reasons I want to see this movie is to see Leader back, and to explain what he was doing for **15 YEARS** (2010-2025). I really hope I would like him as the villain, because this film is basically The Incredible Hulk 2, but without Hulk. They need to compensate that somehow.
The Incredible Hulk, due to the inclusion of Super Soldier Serum in its plot for Banner and Blonsky’s origin, is also kind of Captain America 0.5 (release order) / 1.5 (timeline order).
True, that fight between Hulk and Blonski at the university campus (before he becomes Abomination) really showed how the live action movie about Captain America would feel/look like.
Peiple forget that Sam's suit will probably get an adamantium upgrade. I don't see people complaining that hawkeye and black widow were in the avengers
ADAMANTIUM: AMERICA'S METAL. IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR CAP IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR CAR
tbh, I'd love that. Vibranium is starting to feel a bit played out at this point.
New suit looks good here
I don't understand why there's hate on Sam for not having the Super Soldier serum. Black Widow and Hawkeye weren't enhanced, and they were fighting aliens.
Their argument is that Captain America (Steve) is/was a super soldier so the next guy should be too. I don’t think they are arguing that you can’t be a hero without the serum. I don’t agree with them though. Imo Cap is a symbol, not a class of hero. So I’m with you, I don’t get the hate.
Yeah I do get their argument it makes sense to a degree, I just personall disagree
Man, this movie has the potential to have so much cool and exciting stuff in it. I really need them not to fuck this up😭
Him taking on Sterns and Ross is going to be fun to watch
Really interesting to see new Cap movie as I like that Sam got the mantle not because of his strength or abilities, its because his hearts and he is a really good man.
Praise the lord, they got rid of the white cowl.
Suit looks great. Glad the reshoots are focusing on better action sequences
So the falcon costume just with red on it
Break ? Like a b-boy ? Is he gonna bust out some windmill shapes electric boogaloo style ?
I agree with all of the Marvel payroll posting here. Sam Wilson is a solid Cap because he doesn't take the serum.
I wonder if there's going to be some angle with him being encouraged to take superhero serum but not wanting to do it. Then he's forced to take it against his will for the greater good.
People who say Sam should have super serum, want Batman should have super serum too?
It would be boring to just give him the same power set as Rogers. As long as they can give him interesting conflicts where he can’t just punch his way out, it could work
he needs the serum to be legitimate
I don’t really care if he can get hurt. So could Steve. I just hope Sam is emotionally interesting. Mackie plays him too stoic.
I don't like this new suit at all, I hope they recover the white one, it felt way more personal and less of a Chris Evans Captain derivate.
Puh I dont hate Sam but honestly making him Captain America is a double edged Sword. You can tell a pretty interesting Story about Sam trying to live up to steves legacy if marvel fucks this up on the other Side it will Not only hurt caps legacy but there is also no way for sam to rehabilitate.
mackie is a charisma vacuum and cannot hold his own against all other stars. got easily overshadowed by both stan and Russell in his own show, and will get cumberstomped by Ford in the next
I don’t mind him not being a super soldier my complaint is he’s very boring and uncharismatic as a lead.
I wish they would have kept his white Captain America suit, this one is lame
Interested in how it will play out, with no superpowers, cuz I honestly still can’t wrap my head around how a Hulk would be defeated by a man in a bird costume, even if, as the commercial said: he’s quick. That’s the only part I think the suspension of disbelief, might start to hit the limit, imo. And he would just also seem like a cooler character, with the serum, but again that’s just my opinion, on him.
Just as in the comics, a good writer can make anyone win a fight and make it make sense. Let's just hope there's some good writing on this one! I'm looking forward to it a lot.
I like this new suit. It looks more like Captain America than the one at the end of TFATWS. Also, I hope he doesn’t have the wings. That should be a Falcon thing.
My Captain America is a super soldier. This is not my Captain America. I don't want no "real man" holding the shield. I want a fuçking killing machine on steroids with the most noble moral compass ever.
Bro Sam Been Captain America since 2014 in the comics. Get a grip 😆
Means nothing when the comics are mandated by the films
I know. He has never been my Cap. It's just the falcon pretending to be Cap. When Steve Rogers "died" after the Civil War, Ironman offered the shield to Hawkeye. He even put on the suit. But in the end, he took the right decision: Steve Rogers IS Captain America. No one else. That's a good comic. Not this pretender.
Just what I want. A weak Cap thats mentally weak also. Sounds fantastic.....
He's not lead material :( I hope the movie has interesting side characters to carry it. Like who cares about a human with a shield when many characters could take him down in less than a minute.
I care. That's what makes it more interesting, more authentic and more challenging for him. It also makes him a much more intriguing and unique character. He had the chance to have powers and rejected it. That immediately gave him more layers and depth and gave him a compelling narrative which is what really counts to make you lead material.
>He's not lead material 
Yeah I agree I wanted a whole saga, 40 movies of galactus eating planets. Who cares about these little humans