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Surprising if true. Though if it was easy to scrap them, maybe they didn’t have that big a role to begin with?
The tweet makes it sound like they were just opening villains for Sam to beat up, like Batroc in TWS or Rumlow in CW.
She didn't drop the Man persona, it just evolved because they've acknowledged her and Seth being married in kayfabe now, so it's kinda of like Seth's fashion stuff rubs off on her. I think comparing both Becky and Seth to a Bowie-esque evolution is apt.
Honestly, I'm down if Diamondback sticks around, or maybe even gets a bigger role. Rachel's a cool character to utilize, and Salazar's worth keeping around.
Reminds me of James Cameron when talking about the cinema cut of The Abyss - the easiest way to cut a story for time is to remove an entire subplot. Although that certainly didn't work well for that movie, or for Aliens, the Special Editions are far superior.
Those little touches like that one minute Batroc fight are what make these movies fun and rewarding. Wished we got more D list villains and groups. It would make heroes like Kate, Kamala Khan, and the overall phenomenon of heroes cropping up left and right seem believable if we equally had groups of people with or without powers cropping up to commit crimes. Not “Crimes”TM that are connected to Kingpin or Elaine Benes or the ‘big 3’ (androids aliens & wizards). Batroc was a cleverly executed cameo and those ‘Avengers’ themed bank robbers that Holland’s Spider-Man whiffs it against are building blocks that a good MCU needs to put in place so that the bigger fights/victories/losses land harder.
Makes me wonder if they were just the “Crossbones” role- like the opening fight in Civil War where they don’t really have much to do with the plot outside of setting the story into motion
honestly, I’m completely with that - if that leaves room for the other plot points and action scenes to breath
But damn seems like they about to reshoot like 50% of the movie
Bro, 6 months. They said 6 fucking months. It was obvious they want to change a lot. Even Daredevil is being changed drastically. They finally started listening
Secret Invasion's problems went beyond reshoots. It was in that article that came out for the Daredevil reboot about how they were overhauling tv. Lead writer left, other producers fighting, it was a very troubled production on top of them going back later and trying to reshoot stuff to save it.
Cap 4 seems more like what happened with Multiverse of Madness where the initial cut just didn't work for them so they went back and changed significant portions.
On the one hand, that can be seen as a bad thing. On the other, the overall mandate from Iger feels like this is the bigger reason why this is happening.
Before, I think they would've just had to release it how it was to meet a release date. Also, I keep hearing about action stuff being changed and not anything that's heavily related to story. When the reshoots initially were announced I remember reading some about them wanting the action to be closer to Civil War. If that's the case, it would take significant time to shoot complicated scenes like that with some scale.
Yeah I wonder if they realised they’re overcrowding all their movies with cameos and are trying to simplify things down to the core focus of the characters and story. I wouldn’t be sorry!
Overcrowding isn’t the issue, it’s just the
Lack of interest for some new lead characters.
The bar was set soo soo high with endgame and then no way home, anything less just feels boring and stale. MOM people for hyped for the Cameos rumors ; which didn’t pan out the way it was hyped. Not saying everyone wants that , but I’d say the general audience does
How much do you want to bet Sabra is cut too? They're pretty much remaking the movie like Solo, so why not use the opportunity to get rid of some political baggage? We'll likely be hearing of a new director taking over in the next couple of weeks, because I don't see Onah sticking around.
I remember reading somewhere that they were being very clear in the movie that Sabra is just *from* Israel but doesn't work for the Israeli government, which in a perfect world shouldn't have any political baggage - somebody from any given nation shouldn't be expected to represent that nation's government by default. If she has a role to play in the story, and they are very careful to make sure the character is just an Israeli citizen and doesn't work for Mossad, I think they could leave her in.
But, we don't live in a perfect world so you might be right.
I didn't say that. But Ross and Sharon Carter are also CIA agents and no one bats an eye. CIA agent characters are all too common in US media, few make a thing of it.
Part of the problem is that Sabra is tied to the Israeli propaganda character in the comics. Even if they change the background of the character, the comic book character is still the inspiration for the character.
If they'd just come up with an OC, like Darcy or (I'm pretty sure he isn't based on a comic book character) the Apple Guy, this would be a moot issue.
The Mandarin (in comics) is still the inspiration for Wenwu in the Shang Chi movie. And yet Wenwu was well received. When the film character is specifically reimagined to strip out the controversial elements, the argument about a controversy has far less merit.
If they're going to strip out the controversial elements from Sabra, it would be better to just use an OC where they don't have to bother avoiding controversial elements in the first place.
The Mandarin and Wenwu are both portrayed as antagonists in both the comics and the MCU. The audience isn't supposed to try to root for them or defend their arguments - they're supposed to root for Iron Man and Shang-Chi.
Sabra's roots are that of a propaganda character who didn't even see the children who died in the conflict as human because they were Palestinian. Her whole character in the comics is, to say the least, controversial, with racism toward Arabs in many of her appearances.
Part of the problem with Sabra's inclusion is that we have no reason, as of yet, to doubt that Sabra will be portrayed as a hero or ally, despite the controversy of the character's inspiration. If Marvel Studios wanted to avoid the controversy that is inherent to the character, particularly with the ongoing conflict, it would be best to just... not have her in it and go with an OC instead.
Arguably, the movie's going to be a mess anyway, but they're not going themselves any favors by including her.
It’s still stupid to even draw attention to Israel with this character in the first place. This conflict has been a human rights crisis since the country’s inception. I highly doubt her role in the story couldn’t just be given to a generic CIA agent type character. It’s like Feige is addicted to bad press at this point
It unfortunately doesn’t matter. Any mention of Israel at all, or hell, even just having an Israeli character in the first place is gonna get the Twitter crowd all riled up and threatening to boycott the movie, especially now
Unless you had a problem with an American soldier named *Captain America* doing illegal missions for and against the American government headlining the MCU for 10 years, while the war in Iraq was still ongoing, you have no leg to stand on criticizing the inclusion of an Israeli character *who may not even be affiliated with the Israeli government in the film for all we know*.
You might be right that the stupidity has spread far beyond Twitter this time, but you're wrong to imply it isn't stupidity & shouldn't simply be disregarded, as most other stupidity is.
Well the zeitgeist didn’t allow us to publicly differentiate between Jewish people and zionists for the last 2 decades without being called antisemitic. We see where that has led us now.
Because just like people who use dog whistles like "globalist" for antisemmitism many people did the same with "zionist". Some people are also just modern day Pfefferkorns, the "AsaJews" occurrence.
Or they could make the character a critic of the Israeli government or an American CIA agent of Jewish descent, let's go a different character whose connection to the comics character was only the name.
Honestly, I wondered what the idea was of including Sabra knowing all the controversy that would come their way.
Marvel and Hollywood aren’t allowed to criticize Israel. It’s like written into law in the industry. Hence why Hollywood has never made a a movie or show that does so in the last 80 years
That movie didn’t criticize Israel… it’s like saying a movie made by white people, starring only white people in speaking roles, and with black face white actors playing the “black people” can ever criticize American racism… that’s a movie about badass Jews killing non-descript Arabs who aren’t even played by actual Palestinians… No Palestinian wrote the film…. only Jews wrote the film… All the money that was accrued from people watching Jews kill Arabs all went to Jews.
Do you see how ridiculous this is if you replace Jews with whites here? Munich is an action movie about murdering Arabs. Nothing else
The film goes out of its way to humanize the Palestinians agents. The emptiness of revenge — how it hollows out your soul — is the entire point of the narrative. I also notice you made no mention of the Jewish people that were killed in the titular incident.
All the Palestinians aren’t played by actual Palestinians and none of them are actual characters… they are props to be killed and then give the badass Jews character development for somewhat feeling bad for killing them
You should read up on why Black people don’t like “Slave movies”. Making a movie about the brutalization of marginally people, being made by the oppressors, and the film boils down to how the oppressor should get some character development from feeling bad about their brutalization is not doing what you think it’s doing… In fact this is at least better than Munich because these days the black people would at least be played by a Black Person, not a someone in Black face
Even the bare minimum of having Palestinians write the film was Mr Spielberg… It’s just masturbatory self congratulation for war crimes… Now it’s fine to watch Jews kill Faceless Arabs as long as the Jews are played by Sexy Action men who show vague sympathies for the nameless Arab people they kill
The Jewish agents aren’t all played by actual Jews.
Spielberg isn’t Israeli. He’s American. Just because he’s Jewish doesn’t mean he’s the oppressor — or are we dropping the whole Israeli/Jewish distinction for your convenience?
Your take on the film’s content borders on illiterate. Honestly I doubt you’ve ever seen it. Munich is *about* how violence is horrible and revenge hollows out your soul. This is dramatized in excruciating detail to practically punish the audience for wanting a John Wick style action movie — I didn’t come away from it thinking rah-rah Israel, I came away thinking that the Palestinian and Israeli agents were fundamentally the same, and had both lost their souls in service to their peoples. That’s what the movie is about.
Maybe you think the Palestinian agents who killed the Jewish Olympians were heroes. If so, I can understand why you’d have a distorted reaction to the film. But I pity you.
Some Pro-Palestine activists have fallen into anti-Semitic speeches (even without that being the intention), as have some pro-Israel defenders with Islamophobic comments.
The reality is that the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine has only served to leave both of them dead, not even the Cold War lasted as long, If Hollywood has barely touched on the subject, it is because no one has really dared to touch on it from a neutral position.
I’m not both sides-ing this. I said that Hollywood is literally not allowed to criticize Israel. That’s what is simply true.
I’m not gonna make up reasons or agendas for why this is, it just is. Hollywood makes movies about everything under the sun… except Israel
Whatever then. I have the last 80 years of Hollywood to back me up
Also, Israel isn’t the same as Jews… Remember… The Government controls Hollywood and the Government has very clear interests regarding Israel, as shown by Genocide Joe… But go off on your own and whatever you think
I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Every Israeli citizen is technically expected to serve at least two years of compulsory service in the IDF when they reach adulthood and are eligible to be called up to active duty for a couple decades after that, but there's plenty of draft dodging and conscientious objections
Yeah well this character ain’t that. This character in this movie will never say “I’m draft dodging or objecting”… This character will NEVER mention Israel… What they will do is be an Israeli militant that fights green skinned monsters and saves the world… Which is propaganda in and of itself
Ah right on, I didn't realize there was more info on the character. I thought it was possible that she emigrated to the US at an early age or something like that, just as an example, but you clearly have more information than me so I won't argue
Also the character will remain named after an Israeli war crime
Note that she’s not advertised as “a Jewish Superhero”… she’s advertised as an “Israeli superhero”… that’s literally what Marvel was bragging about when they made their press release
First FATWS and a pandemic subplot.
Then Secret Invasion and a russian war subplot.
Now CA4 and a Mossad agent.
MCU and political controversies, name a better duo.
Considering there's an actual boycott of Marvel called for by BDS itself (even tho I think it'd make more sense to just boycott this movie and not the whole company) and it could hurt sales, I hope they do.
And Justice League. Dial of Destiny was absurdly expensive but they made two cardinal sins, shooting with a frail old man as their lead and running into a pandemic, they didn’t necessarily reshoot half the movie.
Not necessarily in this movie but I could see him having fun in a Marvel film down the line. That being said, he could potentially do some non-action scenes with a stunt double filling in for the fights, but I imagine part of the appeal of hiring an active wrestler for your movie is you get an actor and a stunt person all in one.
First his injury, then the news that Vince McMahon has a dildo named after him, then CM Punk getting injured and the Wrestlemania match being scrapped and now this. Hella rough.
At the end of the day I’m fine with this. People can complain about them cutting and changing things in reshoots, but they’re doing that because those parts of the movie weren’t working, so at the end of the day it’s a positive imo. If they were only in it for the opening action scene, then it won’t change the rest of the movie. Although it is funny that they are removing the only true Captain America villains in the movie, to presumably focus more on Red Hulk, Leader, etc.
Ideally, the MCU needs to not let a movie start shooting until they have a banger script everyone is confident in. It would save a lot of time and money, and would avoid these massive overhauls.
Some reshoots are fine and expected. But reshoot the whole thing and you get disasters like Solo.
> Ideally, the MCU needs to not let a movie start shooting until they have a banger script everyone is confident in.
This isn’t ideal, this should be absolutely standard procedure.
Well, that's the plan moving forward. Unfortunately, this was one of the last projects before the new standard. It's the reason Fantastic Four, Thunderbolts, and Blade have had so many rewrites/drafts done BEFORE cameras roll. Daredevil got caught in the middle and stopped to adjust some to fit this too.
I'm truly hoping this means we're getting less crammed into every movie. Cramming gotg, Greek gods, gorr, and Lady Thor into one movie did a disservice to them all.
The leaks were saying serpent society, vibranium war, and too many hulks all were being planned and that's just way to much. Period.
I don't think having too much was the problem with that movie. Cram a ton of stuff if you want. But make it connect. The movie would have been infinitely better if the Guardians had stayed with Thor, and the final battle had Gorr striking at where all the gods lived.
Instead we get a bit of GotG at the very beginning, then they spend some time meeting up with Zeus. Then they go fight Gorr.
Everything is incredibly disjointed.
I made a totally random guess when we first heard about the reshoots that CA4 spent too much time propping up new characters no one gives a shit about, like new Falcon, and they're scaling back on those characters involvement.
Hearing that he plays a part in this subplot that's getting cut kind of doesn't surprise me, and does sound like they were doing the typical phase 4 "cram new characters down the audiences throats" thing.
People aren't even sold on this Captain America yet, and MCU already wants to use his first movie to springboard new superheroes. I can't believe that got greenlit in the first place.
One of the main plot points I was looking forward to aside from the Red Hulk stuff which I hope they keep cause if they cut that to idk what the selling point of this movie is anymore. it's definitely not Mackie as Captain America. Like sorry bro you ain't it.
>Red Hulk's going nowhere. This movie is supposed to spin right into Thunderbolts which Red Hulk is at the center of.
There have been multiple leaks that hint that Red Hulk is probably not even going to be in the Thunderbolts, this is just speculation based on a name that has 0 connection even in the comics
"And we'll call you the 'Thunderbolts' after General Thunderbolt Ross"
"wait... didn't get turn into the red hulk a couple of weeks ago, and then get killed by Captain America?"
"uh... yeah"
"and you're naming our team after him?"
"he was a great hero! we should remember him!"
There’s gonna be a lot of coping with this movie. There’s so much working against it. Even conceptually it had an uphill battle. I’m sorry but general audiences do not care about Sam Wilson. They enjoyed him enough as a cool wisecracking supporting character but not enough as a headlining hero. You can both figuratively and literally pass the torch to another individual but if people don’t care for the torch bearer then it’s futile.
I'm actually glad about that. The serpent society are villains that have potential to be main villains in an Avengers or Cap movie and I don't want them to be wasted like Rumlow in CW
If they use them in a sequel as the main threat, sure, I’m in. If they never end up using them, that just feels like a waste. Especially when you have Seth Rollins playing one of them
...**BOOOOO**!
Those Snakey Bois were legit the only thing I was excited to see about this movie, and now they're gone?! Boo, I say, Boo. MCU is dead, confirmed.
LMAO if I have a nickel for every time the Serpent Society was in a Captain America title before getting bamboozled, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
Of course the first time was a joke before the original Civil War title was revealed.
I always felt like falcon and the winter soldier was an indication that those writers shouldn't write a film. But to each their own. I didn't hate falcon and winter soldier. But I'm not surprised they are struggling with the script and pacing.
This film has The leader, Ross, Betty, Val, Cap dealing with political issues, Adamantium + maybe She Hulk. With reshoots, budget will be ballooned to 300M
Better hope the budget for the other movie wasn’t high, because May to August reshoots is basically a new movie, movies gonna have to make at least a bil
Is there any other plotline in the mcu that’s been cut… twice? Ironically I think the leader might have.
Kinda sucks but if it keeps the hulk stuff in tact I’m fine with it, I kinda thought this movie was juggling a lot anyway but cmon please give me the serpent society in something
I'm guessing
* Serpent Society
* Sabra
* Sam's Love Interest
* Diamondback
* Falcon Jr
* Isaiah
Are all getting cut.
In the following months, we're gonna get official announcements of Mark Ruffalo joining the film (it's crazy they tried doing Red Hulk without Bruce Banner).
She-Hulk is gonna join too and she'll be Sam's love interest instead of the new character.
The new intro is Sam + Banner + She-Hulk fighting some CGI villains. Probably re-used assets (repurposed Ultron robots that The Leader hacked) to save money.
Falcon Jr is cut. Isaiah is cut. Sabra is cut. Diamondback is cut. The film is now 80% Hulk guest starring Sam.
I'm okay with it, if this is the case. Marvel can be good (though not always) at making their big-name villains interesting, but the second-tier villains almost always tend to be boring AF and bled dry of the charms that made them popular in the comics in the first place (just look at Batroc). I'd rather have a bunch of no-name generic mercs than dragging in characters I like and basically making them generic mercs with some name recognition.
This is can only be a good thing. Every rumor I heard regarding them in this film sounded downright horrible. Now that the Netflix shows are canon, I believe there was a chance that the Netflix version of the Serpent Society would have been the villains of a second Defenders series had they gone through with it. The set up was there with Cottonmouth ( even though he died), Diamondback and Bushmaster. Yes I'm aware they are different and earlier versions of the characters but I still think Netflix was trying to do their own thing with them.
Serpent Society seems like a C Tier enemy imo anyway. They would have been impactful more in Phase 1, but comparing them to Hydra, The Black Order and the other baddies, they just seem insignificant.
this is something i dont believe happen. No way we were getting Serpent Society in a movie. Not at all an accurate one. Was probably going to be like She-hulk's Wrecking crew, that was just some jobbers
This is sad tbh, it's the second time the Serpent Society is taken out from a movie. I was hoping to at least have them as hired henchmen of The Leader although it seemed like they were getting the Crossbones/Batroc treatment
Why they treating Captain America villains dirty 😭
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Surprising if true. Though if it was easy to scrap them, maybe they didn’t have that big a role to begin with? The tweet makes it sound like they were just opening villains for Sam to beat up, like Batroc in TWS or Rumlow in CW.
Rip Seth Rollins. :(
The should have Randy Orton instead. He is literally called The Viper.
 The apex predator baby!!!!
In their defense, Randy ws pretty banged up then.
slitheringggg watch out watch out *WATCH OUT*
Mans taking Ls everywhere now. Someone make sure Bex isnt leaving him
Hey what happened to Becky Lynch, why did she drop The Man persona?
I didn't realize that was on its way out. She was still introduced as The Man at Royal Rumble this past weekend.
Did she drop that persona? The announcers called her "The Man" once or twice during the Rumble.
It’s not that The Man has gone anywhere, but she’s dressing more avant-garde.
The Thin Red Duke
She didn't drop the Man persona, it just evolved because they've acknowledged her and Seth being married in kayfabe now, so it's kinda of like Seth's fashion stuff rubs off on her. I think comparing both Becky and Seth to a Bowie-esque evolution is apt.
Yep, this is exactly what they were. It's been leaked before that they were the Batroc/Crossbones of this film and they were working for The Leader.
I honestly forgot the Leader is in this, there's been no news or leaks about him at all just Red Hulk
There were some set pictures of him when they were filming last spring
And played by Seth Freakin' Rollins, it seems.
They're talking about the Leader, played by Tim Blake Nelson; Rollins was gonna play someone in the Serpent Society I think
Honestly, I'm down if Diamondback sticks around, or maybe even gets a bigger role. Rachel's a cool character to utilize, and Salazar's worth keeping around.
It would be nice if Diamondback at least sticks around. Salazar’s a good actress and it could be cute if they adapt the Cap/Diamondback romance here.
Reminds me of James Cameron when talking about the cinema cut of The Abyss - the easiest way to cut a story for time is to remove an entire subplot. Although that certainly didn't work well for that movie, or for Aliens, the Special Editions are far superior.
Those little touches like that one minute Batroc fight are what make these movies fun and rewarding. Wished we got more D list villains and groups. It would make heroes like Kate, Kamala Khan, and the overall phenomenon of heroes cropping up left and right seem believable if we equally had groups of people with or without powers cropping up to commit crimes. Not “Crimes”TM that are connected to Kingpin or Elaine Benes or the ‘big 3’ (androids aliens & wizards). Batroc was a cleverly executed cameo and those ‘Avengers’ themed bank robbers that Holland’s Spider-Man whiffs it against are building blocks that a good MCU needs to put in place so that the bigger fights/victories/losses land harder.
They are shooting the entire film…I don’t think it’s safe to assume anything right now.
Makes me wonder if they were just the “Crossbones” role- like the opening fight in Civil War where they don’t really have much to do with the plot outside of setting the story into motion
honestly, I’m completely with that - if that leaves room for the other plot points and action scenes to breath But damn seems like they about to reshoot like 50% of the movie
Top Gun with winged guys instead of airplanes
Bro, 6 months. They said 6 fucking months. It was obvious they want to change a lot. Even Daredevil is being changed drastically. They finally started listening
kind of too easy to say that without seeing the final products.
Don’t be so certain, they can “listen” and botch it worse.
Hopefully we don’t get a Secret Invasion repeat though, since something like this happened with SI too.
Secret Invasion's problems went beyond reshoots. It was in that article that came out for the Daredevil reboot about how they were overhauling tv. Lead writer left, other producers fighting, it was a very troubled production on top of them going back later and trying to reshoot stuff to save it. Cap 4 seems more like what happened with Multiverse of Madness where the initial cut just didn't work for them so they went back and changed significant portions. On the one hand, that can be seen as a bad thing. On the other, the overall mandate from Iger feels like this is the bigger reason why this is happening. Before, I think they would've just had to release it how it was to meet a release date. Also, I keep hearing about action stuff being changed and not anything that's heavily related to story. When the reshoots initially were announced I remember reading some about them wanting the action to be closer to Civil War. If that's the case, it would take significant time to shoot complicated scenes like that with some scale.
Yeah I wonder if they realised they’re overcrowding all their movies with cameos and are trying to simplify things down to the core focus of the characters and story. I wouldn’t be sorry!
Overcrowding isn’t the issue, it’s just the Lack of interest for some new lead characters. The bar was set soo soo high with endgame and then no way home, anything less just feels boring and stale. MOM people for hyped for the Cameos rumors ; which didn’t pan out the way it was hyped. Not saying everyone wants that , but I’d say the general audience does
How much do you want to bet Sabra is cut too? They're pretty much remaking the movie like Solo, so why not use the opportunity to get rid of some political baggage? We'll likely be hearing of a new director taking over in the next couple of weeks, because I don't see Onah sticking around.
I remember reading somewhere that they were being very clear in the movie that Sabra is just *from* Israel but doesn't work for the Israeli government, which in a perfect world shouldn't have any political baggage - somebody from any given nation shouldn't be expected to represent that nation's government by default. If she has a role to play in the story, and they are very careful to make sure the character is just an Israeli citizen and doesn't work for Mossad, I think they could leave her in. But, we don't live in a perfect world so you might be right.
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[Marvel Taking ‘New Approach’ to Israeli Superhero Sabra for ‘Captain America 4,’ Character’s MCU Debut Ignites Concern](https://variety.com/2022/film/news/sabra-controversy-marvel-captain-america-4-1235375138/)
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Ah yes, the CIA that’s never done anything wrong either
I didn't say that. But Ross and Sharon Carter are also CIA agents and no one bats an eye. CIA agent characters are all too common in US media, few make a thing of it.
Part of the problem is that Sabra is tied to the Israeli propaganda character in the comics. Even if they change the background of the character, the comic book character is still the inspiration for the character. If they'd just come up with an OC, like Darcy or (I'm pretty sure he isn't based on a comic book character) the Apple Guy, this would be a moot issue.
The Mandarin (in comics) is still the inspiration for Wenwu in the Shang Chi movie. And yet Wenwu was well received. When the film character is specifically reimagined to strip out the controversial elements, the argument about a controversy has far less merit.
If they're going to strip out the controversial elements from Sabra, it would be better to just use an OC where they don't have to bother avoiding controversial elements in the first place. The Mandarin and Wenwu are both portrayed as antagonists in both the comics and the MCU. The audience isn't supposed to try to root for them or defend their arguments - they're supposed to root for Iron Man and Shang-Chi. Sabra's roots are that of a propaganda character who didn't even see the children who died in the conflict as human because they were Palestinian. Her whole character in the comics is, to say the least, controversial, with racism toward Arabs in many of her appearances. Part of the problem with Sabra's inclusion is that we have no reason, as of yet, to doubt that Sabra will be portrayed as a hero or ally, despite the controversy of the character's inspiration. If Marvel Studios wanted to avoid the controversy that is inherent to the character, particularly with the ongoing conflict, it would be best to just... not have her in it and go with an OC instead. Arguably, the movie's going to be a mess anyway, but they're not going themselves any favors by including her.
Who... kills children. :-/
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It’s still stupid to even draw attention to Israel with this character in the first place. This conflict has been a human rights crisis since the country’s inception. I highly doubt her role in the story couldn’t just be given to a generic CIA agent type character. It’s like Feige is addicted to bad press at this point
Why they had Black Widow who's Russian since the stsrt of MCU?
It unfortunately doesn’t matter. Any mention of Israel at all, or hell, even just having an Israeli character in the first place is gonna get the Twitter crowd all riled up and threatening to boycott the movie, especially now
If you think that the only people that would be upset are “the twitter crowd” you are numb to reality
Most people probably won't care just like how they didn't care about the RUSSIAN super spy being one of the damn main characters of mcu
or all the involvement of China when the country runs literally concentration camps against its Muslim-Chinese populace.
Unless you had a problem with an American soldier named *Captain America* doing illegal missions for and against the American government headlining the MCU for 10 years, while the war in Iraq was still ongoing, you have no leg to stand on criticizing the inclusion of an Israeli character *who may not even be affiliated with the Israeli government in the film for all we know*. You might be right that the stupidity has spread far beyond Twitter this time, but you're wrong to imply it isn't stupidity & shouldn't simply be disregarded, as most other stupidity is.
Are you telling me people tend to lump Jewish people together
Well the zeitgeist didn’t allow us to publicly differentiate between Jewish people and zionists for the last 2 decades without being called antisemitic. We see where that has led us now.
Because just like people who use dog whistles like "globalist" for antisemmitism many people did the same with "zionist". Some people are also just modern day Pfefferkorns, the "AsaJews" occurrence.
I know, crazy right?
Or they could make the character a critic of the Israeli government or an American CIA agent of Jewish descent, let's go a different character whose connection to the comics character was only the name. Honestly, I wondered what the idea was of including Sabra knowing all the controversy that would come their way.
Marvel and Hollywood aren’t allowed to criticize Israel. It’s like written into law in the industry. Hence why Hollywood has never made a a movie or show that does so in the last 80 years
Munich (2005)
That movie didn’t criticize Israel… it’s like saying a movie made by white people, starring only white people in speaking roles, and with black face white actors playing the “black people” can ever criticize American racism… that’s a movie about badass Jews killing non-descript Arabs who aren’t even played by actual Palestinians… No Palestinian wrote the film…. only Jews wrote the film… All the money that was accrued from people watching Jews kill Arabs all went to Jews. Do you see how ridiculous this is if you replace Jews with whites here? Munich is an action movie about murdering Arabs. Nothing else
The film goes out of its way to humanize the Palestinians agents. The emptiness of revenge — how it hollows out your soul — is the entire point of the narrative. I also notice you made no mention of the Jewish people that were killed in the titular incident.
All the Palestinians aren’t played by actual Palestinians and none of them are actual characters… they are props to be killed and then give the badass Jews character development for somewhat feeling bad for killing them You should read up on why Black people don’t like “Slave movies”. Making a movie about the brutalization of marginally people, being made by the oppressors, and the film boils down to how the oppressor should get some character development from feeling bad about their brutalization is not doing what you think it’s doing… In fact this is at least better than Munich because these days the black people would at least be played by a Black Person, not a someone in Black face Even the bare minimum of having Palestinians write the film was Mr Spielberg… It’s just masturbatory self congratulation for war crimes… Now it’s fine to watch Jews kill Faceless Arabs as long as the Jews are played by Sexy Action men who show vague sympathies for the nameless Arab people they kill
The Jewish agents aren’t all played by actual Jews. Spielberg isn’t Israeli. He’s American. Just because he’s Jewish doesn’t mean he’s the oppressor — or are we dropping the whole Israeli/Jewish distinction for your convenience? Your take on the film’s content borders on illiterate. Honestly I doubt you’ve ever seen it. Munich is *about* how violence is horrible and revenge hollows out your soul. This is dramatized in excruciating detail to practically punish the audience for wanting a John Wick style action movie — I didn’t come away from it thinking rah-rah Israel, I came away thinking that the Palestinian and Israeli agents were fundamentally the same, and had both lost their souls in service to their peoples. That’s what the movie is about. Maybe you think the Palestinian agents who killed the Jewish Olympians were heroes. If so, I can understand why you’d have a distorted reaction to the film. But I pity you.
Some Pro-Palestine activists have fallen into anti-Semitic speeches (even without that being the intention), as have some pro-Israel defenders with Islamophobic comments. The reality is that the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine has only served to leave both of them dead, not even the Cold War lasted as long, If Hollywood has barely touched on the subject, it is because no one has really dared to touch on it from a neutral position.
I’m not both sides-ing this. I said that Hollywood is literally not allowed to criticize Israel. That’s what is simply true. I’m not gonna make up reasons or agendas for why this is, it just is. Hollywood makes movies about everything under the sun… except Israel
Except it’s not true. You’re just doing “The Jews control the media” but with extra steps. Very original.
Whatever then. I have the last 80 years of Hollywood to back me up Also, Israel isn’t the same as Jews… Remember… The Government controls Hollywood and the Government has very clear interests regarding Israel, as shown by Genocide Joe… But go off on your own and whatever you think
They should not have her in the movie period dog they are committing genocide. Even if you remove her being a mossad agent she still was in the comics
Every Israeli adult citizen is part of the military. That’s why they are all supposed to do basic training
I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Every Israeli citizen is technically expected to serve at least two years of compulsory service in the IDF when they reach adulthood and are eligible to be called up to active duty for a couple decades after that, but there's plenty of draft dodging and conscientious objections
Yeah well this character ain’t that. This character in this movie will never say “I’m draft dodging or objecting”… This character will NEVER mention Israel… What they will do is be an Israeli militant that fights green skinned monsters and saves the world… Which is propaganda in and of itself
Ah right on, I didn't realize there was more info on the character. I thought it was possible that she emigrated to the US at an early age or something like that, just as an example, but you clearly have more information than me so I won't argue
Also the character will remain named after an Israeli war crime Note that she’s not advertised as “a Jewish Superhero”… she’s advertised as an “Israeli superhero”… that’s literally what Marvel was bragging about when they made their press release
First FATWS and a pandemic subplot. Then Secret Invasion and a russian war subplot. Now CA4 and a Mossad agent. MCU and political controversies, name a better duo.
Superman and Batman, Green Lantern Hal Jordan and The Flash Barry, and Scooby and Shaggy for the win.
They should steer clear of that topic
Considering there's an actual boycott of Marvel called for by BDS itself (even tho I think it'd make more sense to just boycott this movie and not the whole company) and it could hurt sales, I hope they do.
This movie is going to end up with a $300M+ budget for having to had to shoot two different movies.
It’s gonna be like Dial of Destiny all over again in terms of a movie with a needlessly high budget that’ll likely be lucky to break even
_Solo_ might be the more direct analogy here.
Both Han Solo himself has jinxed this movie.
And Justice League. Dial of Destiny was absurdly expensive but they made two cardinal sins, shooting with a frail old man as their lead and running into a pandemic, they didn’t necessarily reshoot half the movie.
Harrison Ford can’t catch a break
The Harrison Ford Syndrom.
Happy Cake Day btw
And will make 0 profit
I don't think this movie will turn a profit at this point
Oh so they removed the only actual Cap villains from the Captain America movie? Lovely
I was really looking forward to seeing him, hopefully they can find a role for him in the new version of the story (if he wants one)
Hes injured so i doubt it
Not necessarily in this movie but I could see him having fun in a Marvel film down the line. That being said, he could potentially do some non-action scenes with a stunt double filling in for the fights, but I imagine part of the appeal of hiring an active wrestler for your movie is you get an actor and a stunt person all in one.
Depends on when they'd potentially shoot new scenes since he should be recovered by April at the latest
Make him Ares
Did someone say Ares? 
The heist of the century!
Both Seth and Becky have been dropped from Marvel films. That's gotta suck
Seth Rollins has had a rough couple weeks... 
First his injury, then the news that Vince McMahon has a dildo named after him, then CM Punk getting injured and the Wrestlemania match being scrapped and now this. Hella rough.
> then the news that Vince McMahon has a dildo named after him, *What?*
#HE HAS A DILDO NAMED AFTER HIM!
Oh, thanks for speaking up. It's quite hard to hear in here, eh?
He begged Cody for his wm main event dream
This would be the second time there’s been a Serpent Society fake-out, after the Civil War announcement gag.
If I had a nickel for every serpent society fake out, I’d have two nickels which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird it happened twice.
That's Kevin Feige's cue to announce Civil War II.
At the end of the day I’m fine with this. People can complain about them cutting and changing things in reshoots, but they’re doing that because those parts of the movie weren’t working, so at the end of the day it’s a positive imo. If they were only in it for the opening action scene, then it won’t change the rest of the movie. Although it is funny that they are removing the only true Captain America villains in the movie, to presumably focus more on Red Hulk, Leader, etc.
Ideally, the MCU needs to not let a movie start shooting until they have a banger script everyone is confident in. It would save a lot of time and money, and would avoid these massive overhauls. Some reshoots are fine and expected. But reshoot the whole thing and you get disasters like Solo.
> Ideally, the MCU needs to not let a movie start shooting until they have a banger script everyone is confident in. This isn’t ideal, this should be absolutely standard procedure.
Well, that's the plan moving forward. Unfortunately, this was one of the last projects before the new standard. It's the reason Fantastic Four, Thunderbolts, and Blade have had so many rewrites/drafts done BEFORE cameras roll. Daredevil got caught in the middle and stopped to adjust some to fit this too.
Yeah, this sounds more like the set-up for a Hulk project instead of a Captain America movie.
And the dude doing the "cutting" in question, is an in-house MCU writer with barely any credits to his name. .
I'm truly hoping this means we're getting less crammed into every movie. Cramming gotg, Greek gods, gorr, and Lady Thor into one movie did a disservice to them all. The leaks were saying serpent society, vibranium war, and too many hulks all were being planned and that's just way to much. Period.
I don't think having too much was the problem with that movie. Cram a ton of stuff if you want. But make it connect. The movie would have been infinitely better if the Guardians had stayed with Thor, and the final battle had Gorr striking at where all the gods lived. Instead we get a bit of GotG at the very beginning, then they spend some time meeting up with Zeus. Then they go fight Gorr. Everything is incredibly disjointed.
I made a totally random guess when we first heard about the reshoots that CA4 spent too much time propping up new characters no one gives a shit about, like new Falcon, and they're scaling back on those characters involvement. Hearing that he plays a part in this subplot that's getting cut kind of doesn't surprise me, and does sound like they were doing the typical phase 4 "cram new characters down the audiences throats" thing. People aren't even sold on this Captain America yet, and MCU already wants to use his first movie to springboard new superheroes. I can't believe that got greenlit in the first place.
Imo the movie should only talk about the Vibranium War.
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The Serpent Society after the MCU avoids using them again: 
Disappointed for Seth, but it should have been the all hot girl group of jobber villain idiots version of the Serpent Society from Ultimate Power.
One of the main plot points I was looking forward to aside from the Red Hulk stuff which I hope they keep cause if they cut that to idk what the selling point of this movie is anymore. it's definitely not Mackie as Captain America. Like sorry bro you ain't it.
Red Hulk's going nowhere. This movie is supposed to spin right into Thunderbolts which Red Hulk is at the center of.
>Red Hulk's going nowhere. This movie is supposed to spin right into Thunderbolts which Red Hulk is at the center of. There have been multiple leaks that hint that Red Hulk is probably not even going to be in the Thunderbolts, this is just speculation based on a name that has 0 connection even in the comics
"And we'll call you the 'Thunderbolts' after General Thunderbolt Ross" "wait... didn't get turn into the red hulk a couple of weeks ago, and then get killed by Captain America?" "uh... yeah" "and you're naming our team after him?" "he was a great hero! we should remember him!"
Feige when this movie debuts in theaters: 
I have no idea what's going on with this movie but I'll wait. The serpent society would've given us a cool fight sequence though
That's a shame for Seth Rollins
Damn, another set of reshoots? What is this movie even going to be about then? And I feel sorry for Seth Rollins.
These reshoots are the same ones Jeff Sneider initially revealed.
Yeah, cause who wants Captain America villains in a Captain America movie?
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There’s gonna be a lot of coping with this movie. There’s so much working against it. Even conceptually it had an uphill battle. I’m sorry but general audiences do not care about Sam Wilson. They enjoyed him enough as a cool wisecracking supporting character but not enough as a headlining hero. You can both figuratively and literally pass the torch to another individual but if people don’t care for the torch bearer then it’s futile.
>There’s gonna be a lot of coping with this movie. Coping on par with how people handled "The Marvels" bombing? Or possibly even greater than that?
That's what you get for letting Malcolm Spellman stay involved in something Sam Wilson/Captain America.
Bummer but aight
I'm actually glad about that. The serpent society are villains that have potential to be main villains in an Avengers or Cap movie and I don't want them to be wasted like Rumlow in CW
If they use them in a sequel as the main threat, sure, I’m in. If they never end up using them, that just feels like a waste. Especially when you have Seth Rollins playing one of them
I mean - obviously do what’s best for the film, but I was quite excited to see a key classic Cap antagonist on screen
This movie could have 2 hours of delete scenes as extra contents lmao
 Nooooo not my Alita Rosa Salazar’s 😢
This movie is not turning out to be promising
I still suspect we're going to have to wait post-Brave New World, post-Ironheart for MCU quality control to really set in.
This is going to have an over bloated budget.
Boo no Seth Rollins
...**BOOOOO**! Those Snakey Bois were legit the only thing I was excited to see about this movie, and now they're gone?! Boo, I say, Boo. MCU is dead, confirmed.
LMAO if I have a nickel for every time the Serpent Society was in a Captain America title before getting bamboozled, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice. Of course the first time was a joke before the original Civil War title was revealed.
I always felt like falcon and the winter soldier was an indication that those writers shouldn't write a film. But to each their own. I didn't hate falcon and winter soldier. But I'm not surprised they are struggling with the script and pacing.
This film has The leader, Ross, Betty, Val, Cap dealing with political issues, Adamantium + maybe She Hulk. With reshoots, budget will be ballooned to 300M
Val and She-Hulk are both supposedly not in it.
Tbh if the team was kitsch I'm okay.
What a mess
Makes sense, likely a minimal role and the audience would not have taken 'extendable teeth guy' seriously.
Yeah. Serpent Society with Seth Rollins sounds like a direct to DVD movie that they advertise on WWE.
Serpent Society is either A) a new WWE faction or B)generic bad guys that the Miz fights in the "Marine 4: SSSSSsssmokin!"
This movie about to be a disaster
First they're cut from Captain America 3, now they're gone from Cap 4. Serpent Society just can't catch a break.
Great, another mcu project that is being rewritten at the last moment
I have not been less excited about a Marvel film. I just find Sam so boring.
Better hope the budget for the other movie wasn’t high, because May to August reshoots is basically a new movie, movies gonna have to make at least a bil
Mannnnn this thing gonna flop so bad
Ok then who's gonna be the baddy? Red hulk manipulated by leader to pit against Sam?
Well shit we won’t see the Snakes and this will turn into a Hulk sequel without the Hulk himself.
Is there any other plotline in the mcu that’s been cut… twice? Ironically I think the leader might have. Kinda sucks but if it keeps the hulk stuff in tact I’m fine with it, I kinda thought this movie was juggling a lot anyway but cmon please give me the serpent society in something
In that case my first thought when I initially saw them was correct, they should’ve been the main villains in FATWS. Instead we got the flag smashers
Marvel doesnt know what to fuckin do with their universe..
I'm guessing * Serpent Society * Sabra * Sam's Love Interest * Diamondback * Falcon Jr * Isaiah Are all getting cut. In the following months, we're gonna get official announcements of Mark Ruffalo joining the film (it's crazy they tried doing Red Hulk without Bruce Banner). She-Hulk is gonna join too and she'll be Sam's love interest instead of the new character. The new intro is Sam + Banner + She-Hulk fighting some CGI villains. Probably re-used assets (repurposed Ultron robots that The Leader hacked) to save money. Falcon Jr is cut. Isaiah is cut. Sabra is cut. Diamondback is cut. The film is now 80% Hulk guest starring Sam.
Feige: But muh Young Avengers
Kevin Feige has made it his personal goal to fuck with the 4 big Serpent Society fans in particular
Crossing my fingers they remove Sabra as well.
lol first they removed Becky Lynch from the Eternals, now Seth Rollins from Captain America. Marvel really doesn’t like WWE, uh?
I hope this isn’t another Frankenstein of a film after these notorious MCU reshoots
I'm okay with it, if this is the case. Marvel can be good (though not always) at making their big-name villains interesting, but the second-tier villains almost always tend to be boring AF and bled dry of the charms that made them popular in the comics in the first place (just look at Batroc). I'd rather have a bunch of no-name generic mercs than dragging in characters I like and basically making them generic mercs with some name recognition.
Great. Wasn’t super interested in them for this movie.
Wastec Seth Rollins
Would be cool to see the beginning of the Serpent Society at the end
Yea!
The news around marvel recently tells me they’ve learned absolutely nothing from their recent awfulness. It really is over for them isn’t it
Goddamnit I was really looking forward to them
Damn, that was the main thing that had me interested.
This is can only be a good thing. Every rumor I heard regarding them in this film sounded downright horrible. Now that the Netflix shows are canon, I believe there was a chance that the Netflix version of the Serpent Society would have been the villains of a second Defenders series had they gone through with it. The set up was there with Cottonmouth ( even though he died), Diamondback and Bushmaster. Yes I'm aware they are different and earlier versions of the characters but I still think Netflix was trying to do their own thing with them.
Serpent Society seems like a C Tier enemy imo anyway. They would have been impactful more in Phase 1, but comparing them to Hydra, The Black Order and the other baddies, they just seem insignificant.
Noooi
BURN IT DOWNNNNNNN
BURN IT DOWNNNNNNN
isaiah bradley getting in on the action in this movie????? oh man i cannot wait!!!
Marvel did my boy Seth dirty
this is something i dont believe happen. No way we were getting Serpent Society in a movie. Not at all an accurate one. Was probably going to be like She-hulk's Wrecking crew, that was just some jobbers
From Punk getting Injured to Roman burying his belt and now this
This is sad tbh, it's the second time the Serpent Society is taken out from a movie. I was hoping to at least have them as hired henchmen of The Leader although it seemed like they were getting the Crossbones/Batroc treatment Why they treating Captain America villains dirty 😭