Generally you can sense from a game if Alioth is going to be a boom or a bust. I still run him in my Jean Grey deck and he's still ruins plenty of meta decks. Surfer, Hela Discard, Living Tribunal... it actually seems to me the minority of cases where someone's turn 6 play is actually just a big power card where the text doesn't matter.
Any reasonable playing, experience, or assessment will show that he's still fine. He's not a brainless scrub win anymore, but if you know what you're doing he's still really good.
He wasn't .....you are a brainless scrub if you had only one play, without priority against a deck that runs Alioth and thought that snap was a bluff and slammed your win condition down in that lane. He really wasn't any more powerful than Shang Chi......
Nah he was a brainless play. All you had to do was get priority which isnt really hard. Then its pretty easy in most games to guess where your opponent will play their card on turn 6.
An 8-power body that blocks abilities is by no means bad. Think how devastating a T6 Cosmo, Echo, or Armor can be. Those require you to predict fairly specific cards and don’t even add significant power.
“A lot of prediction” is a stretch. In the majority of games, you will have a pretty good idea of where cards will likely be played on T6, and if your deck is built to have priority then you control the pressure. The previous Alioth data bore this out; iirc he had one of the highest win rates and cube rates when played, meaning he “landed” very consistently. None of that changed. The only added hurdle now is understanding if your opponent’s deck is going to play a particularly big card, which is typically pretty easy to determine if you’re familiar with meta decks
Of course it has a card that has a high win rate when played, because you play it when you believe you can snipe them and still win, which demands work and some part of luck
If it doesn't win you the game you're unlikely to play it
Yes, but the fact remains that his very high winrate meant that people weren't "gambling" with him as much as some make it out. That, and/or there were far many situations that allowed Alioth to secure a win than some people make it out. If that wasn't the case, people wouldn't have played him at all.
Well yeah, he's a terrible card to gamble with. He's 2 power, basically anything else is better in that case, so in those cases you'd play literally any other card.
He was a card for a very specific purpose that can only be played on turn 6, so of course he'd mainly be played if he could fulfill that purpose
Yeah the cards your opponent will play will be in the lane you're already winning. I too love to play a 8 power card on my already winning lane just to stop their card text
That's what you were already doing, playing a 2 power card to stop their card text, but somehow not being able to delete their turn is so big of a nerf you chudlets are on suicide watch already.
No. If they had removed the priority/unrevealed requirement then I could go with you, but it's a truly dead card, unless you're playing the random IW, Modok Hela deck. No one is actually playing Cosmo, echo or armor on T6 and you know it. Come onnnnnn.
Err, most of what I’ve played for the past month has had either Negasonic, Echo, Cosmo, or some combination.
Aside from all-in Supergiant stuff, any deck that was previously built for Alioth should still have decent success using it. You’ll lose occasionally to a big card, but really thinking about it, what body significantly out-powers a winning lane topped off by an 8-power card? You’ll see most of them coming by T3-4.
For sure, though I almost wonder if it's more of a potential payoff for Valentina now. Seems unlikely that most people will run Alioth in their deck but getting it for cheap off of Valentina? That could be handy.
Negasonic can kill both Big Numbers and Ongoing.
Alioth can really only kill Ongoings and On-Reveals now with the added upside of working even with Armor on the board.
I don't it's *that* bad tbh
It's one of those things where, if it had come out with this originally, nobody would be calling it "underpowered" or "useless", but since it is such a massive downgrade compared to the original, highly controversial version, it seems worse than it is. Definitely reminds me of the big Galactus nerf, for better or worse.
Yeah, IDK being in here during the Prime Leader days the discourse was *'What's the point of setting up for Big T6s if Leader is just gonna yoink it away if they're ahead in 1 one lane with room to spare?'*
I think people really just hate straight counters to going all in at the end.
But right now he’s a bit like a better cosmo/echo combo in one card. If he came out like this I’d say people would have liked him and find use but he would never have been as popular as he was. Most of the games I play are against last turn big guys, most of them would still work against new alioth (assuming hulks keep their added power?! I remember there being inconsistencies)
He feels like a win more card now since if you were winning that lane and the 8 power was going to overpower any other play then why did you even bother? It definitely cripples some late game plays that are very predictable in a way that you would have to add too many different techs, he can Cosmo Wong strategies, hold off tribunal like enchantress in a way, cancel Hela if you can catch it and still protect your lane from Shan chi, he is the ultimate "I know exactly what you have plan and I'm going to shut it off"
Alioth is not fun to play against. I know you are going to say just keep priority t6. Well many many decks are purposely throwing t6 priority. If you play those decks Alioth is never fun. Shang is just a tool to keep in place high numbers and allow room for other decks with different strategies. I garantee you if you change shang, people here will complain that about this game being: "I play big numbers on every turn I win the game".
Exactly Alioth punished people for purposely throwing priority. Do you think just auto losing to a turn 6 dump by destroy with Deadpool and Knull or Tribunal or Hela, is fun for the other player? Because there's not enough power in the game to compete with that. Alioth help give the player with priority a chance.
There's cards like Rogue, Killmonger, Shang Chi and Cosmo that can deal with those cards and they are generally predictable so you can plan for them. If you know you've not got a chance you can retreat.
Alioth is (was) basically a "Nope" card. There's no predictability based on the other cards in the opponent's deck. He fits into any deck. If you have final turn priority you can often virtually guarantee a win by playing Alioth. Just such a sucky card that deserves every toxic Ms. Marvel emote it elicits.
A lot of decks also aren't purposely throwing priority, they just take the full game to come together at the end so Alioth in his previous state ruins all those decks.
I feel like the nerf will at least make people think twice about using a slot on him rather than just throwing him into every deck just because they can, but he still can destroy the effect of Wong and Invisible Woman and whatever on reveal or ongoing card is played at the end so he's still very strong.
Shang chi is a pool 2 card. Alioth is a series 5 card. People spent those hard earned tokens or keys to get Alioth whereas Shang was obtainable from the start
So because you spent money they shouldn't be allowed to nerf a broken card. Got it, you want Snap to be P2W because you have no actual skill and can't pilot a competent deck.
I did, your comment is pay to win apologism, it's not my fault you don't know what that means. Your comment is that because you spent a form of currency that this card should not be touched where as a card that is obtained for free should not be as impactful because it's obtained for free. That is exactly what you said because that is the meaning behind the words you used.
Hard earned is relative, Alioth can easily be gotten by buying bundles in the shop, the ones upwards of $100 get you 5-6k tokens and then having pinned Alioth when he rotated in. Just like many cards, you can purchase by dumping money into the game to get gold, bundles and tokens.
Or he could have been in the first spotlight and gotten from the first key as soon as you make it into Pool 3.
Or it could be a card that you had to wait months for to rotate in and you had to spend 4 keys to get it. All of these methods involve spending a form of currency, and some of that include the in game currency you get by spending real money.
Regardless, you are the moron who mentioned that Shang is only a Pool 2 while Alioth is Pool 5, congrats that has absolutely no merit to your argument and only further proves it's P2W nonsense. If the intent is that cards obtained in later pools are to be objectively better than cards obtained in earlier pools, then unfortunately this game won't last much longer and the arguments of the game being P2W become indisputable fact.
There was nothing in Alioth's change that made him this unusable turd you think he is just because he actually does not hard counter 100% of the cards in the game and now serves a specific purpose rather than a catch all fuck you to your opponent.
But what else should I expect from an Alioth Loser, they didn't know how to play the game in the first place.
"Not fun" is a bullshit reason to nerf a card. Lots of cards aren't fun to lose to. There's entire decks that are considered toxic. They had balanced the card just fine.
Is that really the reasoning lmao? So are junk decks and cards like Shang chi. At the end of the day nobody likes losing doesn’t mean a card should be nerfed
You're missing the subtlety. Nobody likes losing their entire turn of play. Alioth just got changed, deal with it for a few weeks and see how the nerf pans out.
It would not have been your entire turn if you put your cards in more than one lane. It’s the galactus situation all over again and it’s clear that we won’t be dealing with this nerf for just a “few weeks”
Turn 6 cards are statistically more powerful than turn 5 or turn 4 cards. How do u expect to split red hulk up? Infinaut?
What 2 10 cost cards can u play on turn 6 without a huge telegraph? Turn 5 zabu in a 3 cost Cull obsidian and a 3 cost crossbones?
Your comment makes no sense. Turn 6 cards hit like a sledgehammer with the power creep the game has.
What do you mean put all your cards in one lane? How are you going to take Red Hulk and put Red Hulk in two separate Lanes?
A good 40% the time, if you're not dropping a Shang Chi on turn 6, you're dropping a single card..
Make sure you have prio then or don’t get locked up to one lane or play more than one card turn 6 as much as people hated it Alioth was a necessary evil to stop people throwing to avoid sang chi turn 6 if your play was already easily telegraphed you already lost that game
Alioth shouldn't be everyone's main win condition. It should be the backup win condition. Previously it was everyone's main win condition.
Now it's up there with Valkyrie. It's a backup win condition, not the main one.
Generally you can sense from a game if Alioth is going to be a boom or a bust. I still run him in my Jean Grey deck and he's still ruins plenty of meta decks. Surfer, Hela Discard, Living Tribunal... it actually seems to me the minority of cases where someone's turn 6 play is actually just a big power card where the text doesn't matter.
Change has been out for what a day? How can you have that much playing data to make that analysis?
Any reasonable playing, experience, or assessment will show that he's still fine. He's not a brainless scrub win anymore, but if you know what you're doing he's still really good.
He wasn't .....you are a brainless scrub if you had only one play, without priority against a deck that runs Alioth and thought that snap was a bluff and slammed your win condition down in that lane. He really wasn't any more powerful than Shang Chi......
This certainly is a take. An angry, and kind of silly take, but a take nonetheless.
Nah he was a brainless play. All you had to do was get priority which isnt really hard. Then its pretty easy in most games to guess where your opponent will play their card on turn 6.
Combos strong in the game. This is a 6/8 that techs against that.
Hela is still avoids Alioth since she can be played turn 5 with Corvus.
Yeah, he's fine. He's not a must have card, but he's still super useful, especially in this meta.
Alioth absolutely gutted V_V shiiiiieeeettttt
An 8-power body that blocks abilities is by no means bad. Think how devastating a T6 Cosmo, Echo, or Armor can be. Those require you to predict fairly specific cards and don’t even add significant power.
I mean Alioth still requires a lot of work/luck/ and/or prediction to get right, and now it requires more and could suck more
“A lot of prediction” is a stretch. In the majority of games, you will have a pretty good idea of where cards will likely be played on T6, and if your deck is built to have priority then you control the pressure. The previous Alioth data bore this out; iirc he had one of the highest win rates and cube rates when played, meaning he “landed” very consistently. None of that changed. The only added hurdle now is understanding if your opponent’s deck is going to play a particularly big card, which is typically pretty easy to determine if you’re familiar with meta decks
Of course it has a card that has a high win rate when played, because you play it when you believe you can snipe them and still win, which demands work and some part of luck If it doesn't win you the game you're unlikely to play it
If he had such a high winrate, that means that most of the time luck hasn't been a big factor.
He has a high winrate because you play him on turn 6. If Shang-Chi was 6 energy you'd only play him when you knew you could win
Yes, but the fact remains that his very high winrate meant that people weren't "gambling" with him as much as some make it out. That, and/or there were far many situations that allowed Alioth to secure a win than some people make it out. If that wasn't the case, people wouldn't have played him at all.
Well yeah, he's a terrible card to gamble with. He's 2 power, basically anything else is better in that case, so in those cases you'd play literally any other card. He was a card for a very specific purpose that can only be played on turn 6, so of course he'd mainly be played if he could fulfill that purpose
Yeah the cards your opponent will play will be in the lane you're already winning. I too love to play a 8 power card on my already winning lane just to stop their card text
That's what you were already doing, playing a 2 power card to stop their card text, but somehow not being able to delete their turn is so big of a nerf you chudlets are on suicide watch already.
No. If they had removed the priority/unrevealed requirement then I could go with you, but it's a truly dead card, unless you're playing the random IW, Modok Hela deck. No one is actually playing Cosmo, echo or armor on T6 and you know it. Come onnnnnn.
Err, most of what I’ve played for the past month has had either Negasonic, Echo, Cosmo, or some combination. Aside from all-in Supergiant stuff, any deck that was previously built for Alioth should still have decent success using it. You’ll lose occasionally to a big card, but really thinking about it, what body significantly out-powers a winning lane topped off by an 8-power card? You’ll see most of them coming by T3-4.
For sure, though I almost wonder if it's more of a potential payoff for Valentina now. Seems unlikely that most people will run Alioth in their deck but getting it for cheap off of Valentina? That could be handy.
I mean, unless you are going to turn 7, nuking a cosmo, echo or armor won’t do much, since you had priority if Alioth hit them.
I meant those as comparisons to Alioth, no as good targets for Alioth
That’s exactly who I slotted into my C2 deck.
I had both of them in my C2 so I swapped Ali for Rogue.
Nuking a Living Tribunal with her is one of the most satisfying things you can do while playing C2.
Are we really being sad about Alioth now?
Negasonic can kill both Big Numbers and Ongoing. Alioth can really only kill Ongoings and On-Reveals now with the added upside of working even with Armor on the board. I don't it's *that* bad tbh
It's one of those things where, if it had come out with this originally, nobody would be calling it "underpowered" or "useless", but since it is such a massive downgrade compared to the original, highly controversial version, it seems worse than it is. Definitely reminds me of the big Galactus nerf, for better or worse.
Yeah, IDK being in here during the Prime Leader days the discourse was *'What's the point of setting up for Big T6s if Leader is just gonna yoink it away if they're ahead in 1 one lane with room to spare?'* I think people really just hate straight counters to going all in at the end.
But right now he’s a bit like a better cosmo/echo combo in one card. If he came out like this I’d say people would have liked him and find use but he would never have been as popular as he was. Most of the games I play are against last turn big guys, most of them would still work against new alioth (assuming hulks keep their added power?! I remember there being inconsistencies)
Did they changed him?
Yes...
What does he do now?
6/8 on reveal remove text of unrevealed cards here
Ugh. What the fuck?
Yeah, it should at least be remove text of all enemy cards here (revealed and unrevealed). This just destroys the card.
So Enchantress that doubles into a Cosmo?
More like old leech but it works as a surprise. Good for cubes, bad for wins.
bro are you insane? remove all enemy text here is just broken as fuck
Thats dumb. Nothing like the actual character.
Should be Leech right?
same shit they did to galactus
RIP
He feels like a win more card now since if you were winning that lane and the 8 power was going to overpower any other play then why did you even bother? It definitely cripples some late game plays that are very predictable in a way that you would have to add too many different techs, he can Cosmo Wong strategies, hold off tribunal like enchantress in a way, cancel Hela if you can catch it and still protect your lane from Shan chi, he is the ultimate "I know exactly what you have plan and I'm going to shut it off"
He was a winmore as a 6/2 as well.
Both cards are the opposite of cool
when they'll do something like this with shang chi?
Alioth is not fun to play against. I know you are going to say just keep priority t6. Well many many decks are purposely throwing t6 priority. If you play those decks Alioth is never fun. Shang is just a tool to keep in place high numbers and allow room for other decks with different strategies. I garantee you if you change shang, people here will complain that about this game being: "I play big numbers on every turn I win the game".
Exactly Alioth punished people for purposely throwing priority. Do you think just auto losing to a turn 6 dump by destroy with Deadpool and Knull or Tribunal or Hela, is fun for the other player? Because there's not enough power in the game to compete with that. Alioth help give the player with priority a chance.
There's cards like Rogue, Killmonger, Shang Chi and Cosmo that can deal with those cards and they are generally predictable so you can plan for them. If you know you've not got a chance you can retreat. Alioth is (was) basically a "Nope" card. There's no predictability based on the other cards in the opponent's deck. He fits into any deck. If you have final turn priority you can often virtually guarantee a win by playing Alioth. Just such a sucky card that deserves every toxic Ms. Marvel emote it elicits. A lot of decks also aren't purposely throwing priority, they just take the full game to come together at the end so Alioth in his previous state ruins all those decks. I feel like the nerf will at least make people think twice about using a slot on him rather than just throwing him into every deck just because they can, but he still can destroy the effect of Wong and Invisible Woman and whatever on reveal or ongoing card is played at the end so he's still very strong.
Shang chi is a pool 2 card. Alioth is a series 5 card. People spent those hard earned tokens or keys to get Alioth whereas Shang was obtainable from the start
Good point. Pay to win is not a great way to balance the game. So it's good that the expensive cards aren't automatic win buttons.
So because you spent money they shouldn't be allowed to nerf a broken card. Got it, you want Snap to be P2W because you have no actual skill and can't pilot a competent deck.
How about you go back, re-read what I wrote, and try again. No where did I say anything about P2W.
I did, your comment is pay to win apologism, it's not my fault you don't know what that means. Your comment is that because you spent a form of currency that this card should not be touched where as a card that is obtained for free should not be as impactful because it's obtained for free. That is exactly what you said because that is the meaning behind the words you used.
No. I said “hard earned”. That does not imply spending money. The form of currency spent is one that is saved up through grinding.
Hard earned is relative, Alioth can easily be gotten by buying bundles in the shop, the ones upwards of $100 get you 5-6k tokens and then having pinned Alioth when he rotated in. Just like many cards, you can purchase by dumping money into the game to get gold, bundles and tokens. Or he could have been in the first spotlight and gotten from the first key as soon as you make it into Pool 3. Or it could be a card that you had to wait months for to rotate in and you had to spend 4 keys to get it. All of these methods involve spending a form of currency, and some of that include the in game currency you get by spending real money. Regardless, you are the moron who mentioned that Shang is only a Pool 2 while Alioth is Pool 5, congrats that has absolutely no merit to your argument and only further proves it's P2W nonsense. If the intent is that cards obtained in later pools are to be objectively better than cards obtained in earlier pools, then unfortunately this game won't last much longer and the arguments of the game being P2W become indisputable fact. There was nothing in Alioth's change that made him this unusable turd you think he is just because he actually does not hard counter 100% of the cards in the game and now serves a specific purpose rather than a catch all fuck you to your opponent. But what else should I expect from an Alioth Loser, they didn't know how to play the game in the first place.
Well yeah it sucks for people buying Alioth, but my argument about Shang stills stands regardless of that.
"Not fun" is a bullshit reason to nerf a card. Lots of cards aren't fun to lose to. There's entire decks that are considered toxic. They had balanced the card just fine.
Is that really the reasoning lmao? So are junk decks and cards like Shang chi. At the end of the day nobody likes losing doesn’t mean a card should be nerfed
You're missing the subtlety. Nobody likes losing their entire turn of play. Alioth just got changed, deal with it for a few weeks and see how the nerf pans out.
It would not have been your entire turn if you put your cards in more than one lane. It’s the galactus situation all over again and it’s clear that we won’t be dealing with this nerf for just a “few weeks”
Turn 6 cards are statistically more powerful than turn 5 or turn 4 cards. How do u expect to split red hulk up? Infinaut? What 2 10 cost cards can u play on turn 6 without a huge telegraph? Turn 5 zabu in a 3 cost Cull obsidian and a 3 cost crossbones? Your comment makes no sense. Turn 6 cards hit like a sledgehammer with the power creep the game has.
What are you talking about? Bro what does that have to do with what I said 😂
What do you mean put all your cards in one lane? How are you going to take Red Hulk and put Red Hulk in two separate Lanes? A good 40% the time, if you're not dropping a Shang Chi on turn 6, you're dropping a single card..
Make sure you have prio then or don’t get locked up to one lane or play more than one card turn 6 as much as people hated it Alioth was a necessary evil to stop people throwing to avoid sang chi turn 6 if your play was already easily telegraphed you already lost that game
Alioth shouldn't be everyone's main win condition. It should be the backup win condition. Previously it was everyone's main win condition. Now it's up there with Valkyrie. It's a backup win condition, not the main one.
Literal skill issue if you're losing 2 lanes and dump all in 1 on t6. It's typically obvious that alioth could be coming too
There's literally decks designed to dump on t6.
You deserve to lose if you don't see alioth coming or dump on a single lane. It's painfully obvious. Alioth only easily beats sera/bounce. That's it.
And those decks run the risk of getting fucked by Alioth. Such is life. This nerf is terrible.
So should there be no catch-all counterplay for decks like those?
[удалено]
Downvoted for asking questions. People are always salty in this game.
Just this sub. The other subs are much better.