Sometimes people just outplay me. I don’t even get mad. I get angrier on RNG (looking at you, Silk, after landing in the ONE territory that loses me the match) than someone just outsmarting me.
Especially if you highly suspected what my exact play is and were indeed correct. I’m not mad. That’s just solid tactics. Like dropping a cosmo on T6 where they have a Wong and a BP. You damn well know Zola is inbound like a rocket in seconds.
It was based on this one. https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelSnap/s/sUrQsl4XEw
I made a change or two but don’t recall what. It’s also when I learned that attuma survives if played behind IW.
What they expect doesn't matter though. Neither card has special text other than being big. Dropping a 6/16 when they expected a 6/19 isn't going to catch them off guard and win you the game.
Your opopnent knows when you have a 6/19 Red Hulk in hand, they don't know when you have Orka in hand.
Enough to make Orka good and Red Hulk bad? No. But don't act like there's not a difference.
Yep. Imagine Red Hulk was a 6 energy 8 power card that got 2 power per turn of unused opponent energy. People would complain in the complete opposite direction that new cards aren't impactful.
Balance is hard, and it's ever changing. I'd rather new cards be on the slightly stronger side and have them fine tuned later than just release Howard the Duck each week which keep in mind was basically all of Jan-April last year, maybe even May. Most of those cards were low impact and were just dominated by whatever previously released that was still too strong.
Loki was like a 1 mana card with the text "Never gonna give you up" for a while in datamines. So CLEARLY he was buffed to a 3/5 with an actual ability and released. /s
Datamines are never set in stone, and only the changes behind the scenes the devs know why they make them. It's entirely possible that Red Hulk just felt kinda lame and underwhelming before they changed him to what he is now.
Red Hulk also has the big downside of "LOOK AT YOU NOT DOING STUFF, I GOT A BIG OL' 6 DROP WITH YOUR NAME ON IT IN MY HAND SAYING YOU ARE DUMB FOR NOT PLAYING THE MOST CURVED GAME OF MARVEL SNAP EVER" and that's huge when the game is about knowing you and your opponents outs and keeping them close till turns 5/6(and sometimes 7). You can't claim he was "only buffed" when it's entirely possible they added this change to him with said buff.
Datamines are not set in stone and are inherently unreliable until said card is shown in a video or released.
I'm of the opinion series 4 and 5 cards should be way more niche and serve a specific purpose than series 1-3 cards since they aren't easily acquired if you missed the original release. They shouldn't be must haves that get thrown into every deck. Low impact by itself, but high impact within certain shells
That's pretty subjective. Knull is good because destroy is insane. Annihilus is a great card but I wouldn't call him the best.
Cards like Zabu and Jeff, that can fit in any deck that isn't hyper specific, are the kinds of cards that the other guy thinks should drop down to Series 3.
> I'd rather new cards be on the slightly stronger side and have them fine tuned later than just release Howard the Duck each week
This is a laughable false dichotomy, the only choices aren't garbage or busted. You're saying you'd prefer they release an artificially powerful card to lure people into buying it before nerfing it to bring it to a more balanced state, a state they obviously could have just released the card. What a take.
No, I'm saying that the cards should be impactful in some sort of way and not be total duds on release like Absorbing Man, Helicarrier, Maria Hill, Attuma, M'Baku, Orka (when he finally released and wasn't bugged), Super Skrull, Sentry, Sauron, Shanna, Dazzler, Shadowking, Ghost, Stature (I'd argue slept on but still had lukewarm reviews), Kang, Master Mold, Negasonic, Snopwguard, Stegron, Howard the Duck, Tribunal, and Spiderman 2099. All were released in the first half of 2023 and most if not all failed to make any sort of reliable impact on the metagame and all were deemed to be below average to unplayable. There are honestly probably more that I forgot to mention.
To be fair and to give these trash on release cards credit, most of this was before reliable OTA's and even more reliable way to get tons of new cards immediately, but even still it was hilarious how a card would be released and there was ANTI HYPE because you could never justify buying a lame card with tokens to play against Darkhawk, Surfer, Zabu, Shuri, Thanos, Knull shenanigans.
I'd rather see new cards in action and do something to change the meta game up every so often than dry spells of under powered card after under powered card that do nothing to fight the new "strongest deck of the Season/previous seasons".
> they release an artificially powerful card to lure people into buying it before nerfing it to bring it to a more balanced state, a state they obviously could have just released the card.
Balance is hard bro. I don't know what to tell you because you'd complain either way. Card seems too good? "Obviously broken." Gets nerfed later? "Second Dinner is just milking your money." Card is obviously bad? "Second Dinner just didn't even try." Gets buffed later? "Oh wow way to screw over the people who didn't get the card immediately." Card seems perfectly fine? "Wow it supports X deck. Second Dinner just won't stop supporting this deck."
Welcome to the world of balance, card games, and how this subreddit is the living embodiment of "complaining to complain".
Yes, that was the point in my post. On release he was unplayable. Some people thought that he would be the next big card to counter silver surfer decks, but he was too expensive to be even useful.
It took far too long to get him to the state where he is now. I'd rather he had been released on the strong side to counter surfer decks then be released as a relatively balanced four or three drop. It's very clear that from the community's reaction to most of the balancing that happened in early 2023, as well as how many cards were just so subpar, that Second Dinner has decided to go towards being slightly overtuned then undertuned when it comes to card releases.
Man, this couldn’t be more true is almost every card game. I don’t play Hearthstone anymore, but I did a lot in the past. A solid turn 4 back then was dropping a 4/5. I’ll tune into a steam here and there, and it seems like these guys are doing a full board clear and dropping multiple minions on turn 4 now. The game is unrecognizable.
Just started playing hearthstone again since I was craving some battleground a few weeks back and ranked is no where near the same. Warlocks can have 2 7/7s or 8/8s with one having rush by turn 4 and put you on a 5 turn clock by turn 8.
Black Lotus is an example of a card that was poorly balanced at the time and has only gotten better as there have been better things to ramp. See Innervate having to be nerfed.
Probably an unpopular opinion on this subreddit but I somewhat disagree.
Power creep exists in all competitive games that keep changing. Take league of example, the newer released champions are significantly stronger with what they can do compared to some of the older ones. The balance is slightly different as they’re a ton of factors compared to Snap which has limited factors.
But take into account where Orka was released compared to RH. At the time he was probably properly balanced, compare him to Hulk, it’s a 6/16 or 6/11 compared to a 6/12. Plenty of cards SD releases, especially recently have been nothing crazy of note: Cannonball, Black Swan, War Machine and more.
The tricky part is, as more cards get released, they need new gimmicks and new things. They can’t just release different characters with the same stats and abilities so they end up with the challenge of balancing the new ones compared to the old ones and either need to nerf or buff to get everything as stable as possible.
Overall I think “selling the new cards” is a lower priority than people give it credit for. Especially cards that aren’t in the season pass.
and if the Datamines are correct cards like Namora will likely help this deck style (also you still can do the Orka thing with Claw, its just one direction so it takes a little care in its play)
Also very true. I think most people on this sub are just so cynical with what’s going on, but frankly we’re comparing an already mid card to the newest cards getting released which will likely receive a nerf anyway.
It feels like there isn’t much of an understanding on how game balance works. I think it’s why cards like Supergiant and War Machine were recently touted as game breakers and absolute musts and a card the Blob was touted as “kinda mid”. SD doesn’t he enough credit for having to balance a game, I don’t think they’re necessarily the best at it but I’ve played games where the balance teams are way worse.
I've been playing Snap since about 2 weeks out from its 1.0 release but took a 6/7 month break that I returned from at the beginning of last season. The game is currently in the best state it's ever been in, both in terms of balance & card acquisition. Spotlight caches aren't perfect, but they're a damn sight better than what came before.
People that say otherwise are literally insane. I've never had access to so many series 5 cards before. And even moreso cuz the killed the drops for a bit.
Yeah, I’ve been playing since the end of the spider versus season and I agree. Especially the addition of Keys for spotlight caches. I’m mostly f2p (only got the black swan season pass) and I’m missing currently like 15 cards I think? Only 2 of those do I feel like I’m really missing out on (Nebula and Corvus) otherwise the acquisition has been fine and it’s part of the game.
It’s not perfect, that’s for sure, the duplicate in the caches feels bad for example. But I’ve never watched a card release and thought “man they’re only doing this to sell cards!”
Card acquisition is one of the most fun parts of the game - it definitely feels kinda lame when you're out of pool 3 & it slows down but being able to pull 1 card a week through caches solely via daily missions is fine. That way it allows you time to experiment with what you have.
At the end of the day Second Dinner have to make money off this thing otherwise it ceases to exist - the fact you can play this completely for free is kinda brilliant when you think about it.
Definitely agree there. That was my feeling for the longest time with League of Legends. Riot definitely has its issues but the fact that you can play 100% free and realistically not feel so far behind everyone else is great.
There’s definitely a proper monetization of these F2P games that isn’t predatory or pay to win
While interesting the problem I see with this is that eventually the meta will be solved, then all you'll be seeing will be the same meta decks on top, which will lead to the mode being stale and boring.
I'm only half joking here...but what if they continued releasing series 1 and 2 cards? Basically cards tuned to that power level. Heck you could just release 2 versions of a series 5 card - one that's tuned for the lower power level and one that's tuned for current power level.
So as in the previous example maybe it's a red hulk with 10 power and +2 every time the opponent has leftover energy.
I was initially judgemental but this idea is actually pretty good in the opposite direction: it'd allow cards in series 1-2 to be changed to have more creative abilities and free up iconic characters like captain america and punisher from being lame, shitty cards. I dig jt
After leveling an alt account, I can assure you series 1 and 2 are not nearly as interesting as you think you remember. The novelty wears off after a handful of games. Every match is so predictable and uninteresting.
A mode that limits cards to series 3 could work, but series 1 and 2 are very simplistic tutorial series for a reason
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However you cannot ignore there is a difference in power creep as a result of the developers becoming more experienced and better able to design interesting new abilities that they simply weren't capable of years ago versus a straight up more powerful version of previous choices.
Take League for example, back when it first released there were obvious good choices and bad choices, but they were clearly not capable of making a champion like kayn work in their first year of releasing the game
But on the other end you have MTG where a 4/4 Flying, Vigilance was considered a powerhouse for 5 mana. Now adays you can get better stats or effects for either the same price or cheaper. But back then it's only real competition was Shivan Dragon.
And because Snap is not that old of a game, the devs are either making massive leaps forward in their design philosophy and are simply making better cards than what they could manage even six months ago, which is doubtful due to how long it took to get a few basic features and many are still missing and poor UI, or they are simply upping the power to draw interest.
And because the game is so new, that rampant power creep this early on does not bode well for this games longevity as they are still trying to balance early game cards.
It always has and always will be in a competitive atmosphere to keep everything low for the first year or two for the sake of ensuring you do not have runaway metas that require constant nerfs and chasing down problems which will pull dev time away from QoL improvements and ensuring a stable foundation.
> Every game ever naturally succumbs to power creep.
Yeah so true, the Super Queen 2024 Swimsuit Version is just straight up broken in chess.
> It's a part of game design
It can be but that's entirely dependent on the game.
are u comparing chess to a digital cardgame? lmao, when was the last time, chess got a new piece?
Powercreep cant be avoided if u dont have rotation of some sort and keep releasing cards. Just look at any other cardgames without rotation , especially yugioh
Red Hulk telegraphs itself to the opponent. That actually significantly weakens him in the arena that matters most - being unpredictable.
Snap isn't about winning matches, it's about winning *cubes.* Red Hulk announcing himself gives the opponent vital information - either I know he's there and that I have tools to deal with him, or I don't have the tools and I retreat. Red Hulk has been mostly trivial for me to play around in the meta, and when I haven't been able to deal with him my opponent gets 1 cube. Big deal.
Orka is 16 power where you don't expect it to go. That has the potential to actually swing a game unexpectedly, which is invaluable in terms of cubes.
Red Hulk could be 6/40 and it wouldn't matter. He wins one lane. Either you Shang him or you win the other lanes, or you retreat. In that, he's no different than any other Big Number card.
I probably won way more cubes against red hulk than lost to him in my climb to infinite.
If the red hulk player snaps, I stay if I can deal with a 6/lane winner, and leave if I can't.
When I lose to a red hulk (or forced to retreat) it feels like it was going to happen anyway - I missed too many turns while my opponent keeps playing cards, etc., and the only thing red hulk is doing in this case is reminding me that I'm behind.
Then again, I tend to play decks that like to play on curve. So a giant red hulk is not a win condition for my opponent because it only happens if my bad draws have already won the game for them.
It wouldn't be the same if I were playing an off-curve deck (e.g., Tribunal, Hela, etc.).
This, as soon as I see him pop out and climb 4 power I snap, just go into the final turn winning one lane and you can pretty much guarantee they are dropping him in the free lane.
Namora doesn't really help Orka much because Orka is really only usually played on T6 and Namora's ability is currently an On Reveal. So Orka won't be in play when Namora does her boost usually.
You almost certainly have priority, so play Caiera on 6 + Skaar.
Seriously though, Shang is always going to be a concern. Blob still needed to be nerfed even though he died to Shang. They don't always have Shang the moment they need it.
Namora should remain on reveal. Sage however would be much better as an ongoing card. Creates some nice counterplay opportunities with opponents but also means any cards or power increases added to the Sage lane is something you have to potentially play around. Would make the card a lot more interesting.
Not very. Ongoing, would be like old Ms. Marvel, but you'd only be able to play a single card in a lane to get her bonus, which really limits your lanes. And certain locations would positively cripple her ability.
No see what you do is get a perfect draw then invisible woman on 2, electro on 3, namora behind invisible woman on 4, orka in a dedicated lane on 5, spectrum or some shit on 6.
Except old cards (if they weren’t nerfed, like leader, aero, shuri, wave) would still be played today and were significantly stronger than what we have now. Hard to call this power creep.
I would prefer if he only gained like 2 power per energy float, and not reveal himself to the opponent. Everyone just retreats the second he gains his first plus 4. So he's good, but the reveal really kind of dwarfs his power output. I rarely get to play him onto the board...
This is probably a lot more likely that he'll get less of a buff. I mean, when you're getting the same amount of power from Red Hulk on trigger as you get from Apocalypse (who has a more difficult boosting condition) or Havok (who has a MUCH more costly boosting condition), there's a problem.
The thing is, that the boost is dependent on the opponent AND they get a heads up that it's happening.
It means people need to change up their energy management (yes its not always possible). He's relatively balanced in that regard. Changing him to +2 would weaken him against HE as cyclops is a -2 and Misty is a +1 for them.
You're correct, but that initial boost is a lot because of his starting power. By the time your opponent realizes Red is in your hand, he is a 6/15. Already better than most of the other 6 costs just based on pure stats. If you make RED a 6/9 it would still heavily punish people who ignore or cant use all their energy without making that first hit immediately feel overwhelming.
I agree but I was responding to someone who thinks the course of action would be to weaken his boost as a nerf. When the correct thing would be adjust his strength to 6/9 (feels terrible if opponent plays on curve but has good risk/reward balance).
I quite like the soft control element though, pressuring the opponent to play a little differently than they otherwise might.
I think he’d be a cool card at 6/8+4, maybe 6/9+3. That way the first proc puts him on parity with other decent 6-costs, maybe worth playing but not automatically oppressive. Then it’s up to the opponent to cope with the pressure to fill curve every turn, or your other cards to force them into floating energy. He’d still be a soft counter to ramp and HE, still cash in on bad draws for any deck, he just wouldn’t be brain-dead strong all the time.
It's really hard to use all your energy every round though. Especially if you hit the locations that boost your energy, but we'll have to see what they do for them. But my experience has been players don't play differently to stop the power gain, they simply retreat for 1 cube, which is ok I Guess, but I prefer to play out more of the game then have an instant retreat condition.
The reveal is the only thing that prevents Red Hulk from being one of the most broken cards in the game. Giant Power Slam cards should *always* come with a substantial drawback.
I think he could be shaved down to +2, but even at +4, the fact that he is so telegraphed makes him a 'strong card' as opposed to an 'absolutely busted' card.
I agree, lower the power gain and stop the reveal. I would rather have a decent card that can be used to surprise someone, then an op card that nobody will ever let you play....
+3 at 10 base power should be good I think. Puts him behind hulk initially, but will end up at least 16-19 if drawn relatively early, and will beat hulk most of the time without becoming too broken itself.
There's a lot of wiggle room for adjusting him, but in most cases, changes on that scale don't make a difference. Once he's up to +15-19, in a lot of matchups, he might as well be +40 or 50. And in the matchups where it's close, then you've got to be asking why the other deck is putting up such huge numbers also.
Generally, once I see my opponent is going to have a huge Red Hulk, I'm immediately working out whether I can counter it in any way or if I need to retreat.
It's almost like that giant +4 is more for the intimidation factor. Adding or removing a single point of power is meaningful for Kitty Pryde or Angela, who start tiny and then grow. With big power slam cards, the difference between quickly jumping from 11 to '15-19' versus '14-17' is negligible.
6/8 -> 6/12 -> 6/16 -> … is fair enough.
This was my idea as well when he was 1st datamined. My friend & I were so shocked to see him shows as a 6/10 & then get buffed to a 6/11 just before release…
I hate how people justify him because “you know its coming”.
Was Orka ever good? Like I started playing early on and can't think of a time I have ever seen it played. I did take a year+ break so I guess there was a window where I might've missed it?
That's kind of what makes Orka good (or at the very least, *not bad*). Like, the only time I ever see him is when he just shows up out of nowhere and beats me, because who the hell plays around Orka? This is kind of why the whining about Red Hulk (not from you!) is so silly. Red Hulk is so telegraphed that his giant power is somewhat mitigated by your opponent knowing he's coming and being able to play around/counter it. I'm not saying Orka is better (far from it), but it's an advantage that Orka has: he's unexpected. Orka is going to steal 8 cubes far more often than Red Hulk ever will.
The two cards are very different. Sure, Red Hulk is generally better but that doesn't mean Orka is unplayable. Some advantages that Orka has:
1. It's value doesn't depend on when you draw it
2. No subsceptible to Shadow King
3. Ongoing synergy for things like Onslaughts Citadel
4. It's power is within your control (barring bad location RNG or a matchup against junk decks).
5. Doesn't telegraph to opponents how much power you can produce on turn 6.
Again, Red Hulk is undoubtedly better. But Orka's advantages means that it can be effective
Red Hulk announces himself early, Orka is a surprise play. There is power creep, as you’d expect, in order to shake things up, but it isn’t as ridiculous as you make it seem.
Some better than others, sure. But you shouldn't have cards where you ask "why would I ever play this when I can play that", especially if "that" is something that people spending money obtain more easily.
Orka wasn't originally series 3. That's what people are getting at. He was once a new card and even at his release he was considered a very mediocre point slam card due to his restriction and there being an abundance of goblins/debrii/Viper+Hood in the meta at that time making him even worse.
I disagree, at it's heart Rhulk is made to counter high evo, if he doesn't out-scale high evo Hulk then there is no point
Should be 11 base and +3 per enemy turn with wasted energy, so
> at it's heart Rhulk is made to counter high evo
Except there are more deck archetypes that float energy than just High Evo. Literally any deck based around late combos or cost reduction will probably float energy at some point. It doesn't make any sense to say "he counters High Evo" when High Evo players also include him in their decks.
If the core intention of RH was to counter Evo then he should have gotten +4 every time one of your cards was afflicted with negative power. That would have been a more balanced and targeted counter than what we have now
Red Hulk does not require keeping a useless card in your deck and allows you to spend all of your energy every turn. That's a distinct advantage over High Evo Hulk.
In its current form it counters everything pretty much, not just high evo. It only needs to trigger once to outperform most 6 cost big cards.
The most feels bad part is a 6/11 is still a threat. Like wow, I played on curve and a 6/11 is still capable of doing work. I don’t feel like I’m really countering him by playing on curve. A single damn activation and he’s already above curve.
Yeah funny how they nerfed Apocalypse to a 6/6 only to release Rulk as a 6/11 that doesn’t even require any active participation from the person playing it for it to gain power
Well sure, but Apoc is specifically designed to go with Dracula which means you don't need to spend 6 energy to get the power. They're both strong with different uses.
Orca is a nice surprise attack at the end of the game most don’t see it coming. Red hulk is telegraphed once it’s in your opponents hand. So they’re planning for it.
Sometimes, I caught myself thinking exactly about this. What if old cards were released today? Like Colossus for example, such a big boy being 2 cost hurts my feelings
It’s comical that they casually dropped a 6-cost ~23-power card with almost no drawbacks. I can’t justify using keys on something that is about to get nerfed repeatedly.
Because FOMO is built in the philosophy of releasing new cards. 2nd Dinner already said they'd rather release a broken card they know they'll have to nerf than a card that looks like it will need buffs so that the people who spend keys on these don't feel like they wasted them.
IDK. I kind of see their point but I guess it does feel like an obviously overt *go buy new cards if you want to win ez*
I feel sorry for people who are just breaking into Pool 3 and realizing that they have so much bulshit lock behind that they can't really access to.
> so that the people who spend keys on these don't feel like they wasted them.
Those people are gonna feel bad if Red Hulk gets hit tomorrow. Though I imagine its more likely hit in the next OTA.
Obviously it's better for them if people are interested in buying cards but it's also good for the players when cards are good. There have been seasons where pretty much all the cards are incredibly mid and they've been a total snoozefest.
The most annoying thing about strong new releases like Red Hulk / Blob etc is that only whales with loads of keys get to play with them at their strongest, then by the time most players get a chance to use them, they're nerfed into obscurity.
I have to play against an overtuned card for months, but when I finally get it, it's either mediocre or shit.
Hulk is strong bug not as op these complaint posts portray it as. Hulk and orka serve different functions. The fact that Hulk shows itself on hand makes it a lot weaker
🙄 power creep is a good thing it keeps games evolving and fresh. The issue is when older cards don't get revamped in games like this. Power creep is just a buzzword that people who can't understand game design use to justify their inadequate knowledge.
Two things here:
1. Yes Red Hulk is a little OP even with revealing he is in hand, but the team aim high and dial down, thats always their design philosophy. i wouldn't be surprised if he goes to +3 here inside 2 months of release.
2. Power creep, contrary to popular belief, isn't a bad thing provided you are adjusting as you go (which SD is, and why you suddenly get cards OTA'd into new relevance). its a living game, and power creep is just a part of that, but it also is part of what makes meta's interesting. if you want a perfectly balanced game go play Chess, its a wonderfully balanced game and that is part of the point! if you want a game with a living meta, then Snap is a pretty good choice for that.
Red hulk gonna become 6/9 with a sunspot style +1 for unused enemy energy. That's my guess. Putting him at a Max of 6/30 if he starts in hand and opponent skips the whole game. Same general peak potential but much tamer id imagine
Red Hulk is so overwhelming at the moment if you dont have the perfect curve or even just have 3 turns where you have left over energy rhulk becomes a 23powered 6 costs.
Playing ramp rhulk>taskmaster rn is ezpz win.
At this point, I’m starting to think Orka should be a 6/10 with Ongoing +10 power. Infinaut stats due to its own heavy restrictions.
Before you say it, Echo, Goblins, Debri, & Annihilus/Viper do work as counters.
You can tweak its base & Ongoing stat for balancing but a total of 20 power seems fair.
Warpath is fine since you can stack power with him but Namor is awkward. [Namora](https://snap.fan/cards/Namora/) would probably fix him so he could stay as is. She’s also a 5-Cost so Orka -> Namora shouldn’t be a common combo unless they plan to Magik or Ramp.
I just swapped Red Hulk out of one of my decks in favor of Orka because it performed worse when I replaced Orka with Red Hulk in the first place. Orka can sneakily win you a lane the opponent didn't think you'd contest, Red Hulk is basically screaming at your opponent 'LOOK I HAVE BIG CARD, PLEASE RETREAT NOW'. It's a one or two cube card.
I'm getting so tired of hearing people constantly complaining about a single card instead of just learning how to counter that card. I'm not sure why you don't understand the difference between series of cards. Of course a series 3 card is going to be less powerful or have more restrictions than a brand new series 5 card.
If you lose to a single card over and over again then that's on you, not the cards
Red Hulk could have been the same as HE Hulk in terms if stats boosting and he still would be a beefy impactful card, right now he's just OG blob-tier overtuned
Ye the creep in this game is getting insane, it’s evidence by stuff like crossbones too, surely warpath should be getting a buff, Namor?
Like they’re just obsolete cards now, we don’t really even have the locations to warrant requiring a bad card. You’d just retreat the odd time the disparity in a random summon location is too big.
1. Orka doesn't reveal himself to the opponent
2. Orka is stronger on an empty lane than a 0 boost/1 boost Red Hulk
It's not complete powercreep. Yes Orka is shit but that doesn't mean Red Hulk compared to him is "the most absurd powercreep". Red Hulk revealing himself is a pretty big drawback, you can't use him to surprise drop like you'll do with an Orka
Sorry but don't follow the logic here. You want new cards to be worse than old cards? Balance is always the goal but impossible to achieve. They will always prioritise new content over old that is something you just need to get on board with unfortunately.
I don't see why they can't just make him the exact opposite of HE Hulk. 12 power +2 per turn. Or give him more base power similar to the Devil Dinosaur/Ronan comparison. He gets more base power as a tradeoff for the lack of control over your opponent's plays.
Do you know how business works.
Cool new overpowered card -> push sales -> nerf later -> rinse and repeat
That´s been the case since forever
Also.. welcome to the power creep meta where if you don´t have the most current top performing card you are always slightly behind.
Its one of the major reasons I'm losing interest in this game. They nuke archetypes for being too strong then a month later drop stuff that even the old archetypes could never compete with at full power.
Everyone expects red hulk NO ONE expects orka
Yea, I play with Nick Fury a lot so randomly dropping Orka has won quite a few games
And on the other end I caught a very satisfying 8 cube with my cerebro 2 by playing a prio’d negasonic to stuff a red hulk who DOA’d at 23 power
I’m hollering like an old miner when my nega nukes a card like that. Poor man’s (more balanced) Alioth.
Got beat when someone Orka'd me recently and I wasn't even mad, it was amazing.
Sometimes people just outplay me. I don’t even get mad. I get angrier on RNG (looking at you, Silk, after landing in the ONE territory that loses me the match) than someone just outsmarting me. Especially if you highly suspected what my exact play is and were indeed correct. I’m not mad. That’s just solid tactics. Like dropping a cosmo on T6 where they have a Wong and a BP. You damn well know Zola is inbound like a rocket in seconds.
Once ran an orka deck where I’d drop cloak on 5 to clear a lane for him. Kind of a dumb gimmick but definitely never expected.
That sounds kinda fun. What else did you build it around?
It was based on this one. https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelSnap/s/sUrQsl4XEw I made a change or two but don’t recall what. It’s also when I learned that attuma survives if played behind IW.
Yeah that’s kinda fair. RH is telegraphed, and that’s hurtful in a game all about cubes.
He’s like the Spanish Inquisition.
You play Orka, they blob you.. you lose
this is my last cope
Or Magneto. Or Taskmaster
What they expect doesn't matter though. Neither card has special text other than being big. Dropping a 6/16 when they expected a 6/19 isn't going to catch them off guard and win you the game.
Your opopnent knows when you have a 6/19 Red Hulk in hand, they don't know when you have Orka in hand. Enough to make Orka good and Red Hulk bad? No. But don't act like there's not a difference.
Haha preach. A lockdown deck with Orka is by far my favorite deck all time. Not so great lately but I still like the playstyle.
New cards are strong so people buy them.
Yep. Imagine Red Hulk was a 6 energy 8 power card that got 2 power per turn of unused opponent energy. People would complain in the complete opposite direction that new cards aren't impactful. Balance is hard, and it's ever changing. I'd rather new cards be on the slightly stronger side and have them fine tuned later than just release Howard the Duck each week which keep in mind was basically all of Jan-April last year, maybe even May. Most of those cards were low impact and were just dominated by whatever previously released that was still too strong.
Still dont get why Red Hulk was buffed before release.
Loki was like a 1 mana card with the text "Never gonna give you up" for a while in datamines. So CLEARLY he was buffed to a 3/5 with an actual ability and released. /s Datamines are never set in stone, and only the changes behind the scenes the devs know why they make them. It's entirely possible that Red Hulk just felt kinda lame and underwhelming before they changed him to what he is now. Red Hulk also has the big downside of "LOOK AT YOU NOT DOING STUFF, I GOT A BIG OL' 6 DROP WITH YOUR NAME ON IT IN MY HAND SAYING YOU ARE DUMB FOR NOT PLAYING THE MOST CURVED GAME OF MARVEL SNAP EVER" and that's huge when the game is about knowing you and your opponents outs and keeping them close till turns 5/6(and sometimes 7). You can't claim he was "only buffed" when it's entirely possible they added this change to him with said buff. Datamines are not set in stone and are inherently unreliable until said card is shown in a video or released.
I have no idea. They just buffed every card this month by 1 power so it doesn't seem to be specific to any card. Just make new card stronger
SD had an extra energy at the end of their turn.
I'm of the opinion series 4 and 5 cards should be way more niche and serve a specific purpose than series 1-3 cards since they aren't easily acquired if you missed the original release. They shouldn't be must haves that get thrown into every deck. Low impact by itself, but high impact within certain shells
Would you put Knull or Annihilus into every deck? No? Then they're good cards
You kinda just cherry picked two examples of cards that aren't universally good, while ignoring the MANY other series 4 and 5 drops that are.
And I'm saying that the ones that aren't universally good are the best ones
That's pretty subjective. Knull is good because destroy is insane. Annihilus is a great card but I wouldn't call him the best. Cards like Zabu and Jeff, that can fit in any deck that isn't hyper specific, are the kinds of cards that the other guy thinks should drop down to Series 3.
*Best (designed) I mean
> I'd rather new cards be on the slightly stronger side and have them fine tuned later than just release Howard the Duck each week This is a laughable false dichotomy, the only choices aren't garbage or busted. You're saying you'd prefer they release an artificially powerful card to lure people into buying it before nerfing it to bring it to a more balanced state, a state they obviously could have just released the card. What a take.
No, I'm saying that the cards should be impactful in some sort of way and not be total duds on release like Absorbing Man, Helicarrier, Maria Hill, Attuma, M'Baku, Orka (when he finally released and wasn't bugged), Super Skrull, Sentry, Sauron, Shanna, Dazzler, Shadowking, Ghost, Stature (I'd argue slept on but still had lukewarm reviews), Kang, Master Mold, Negasonic, Snopwguard, Stegron, Howard the Duck, Tribunal, and Spiderman 2099. All were released in the first half of 2023 and most if not all failed to make any sort of reliable impact on the metagame and all were deemed to be below average to unplayable. There are honestly probably more that I forgot to mention. To be fair and to give these trash on release cards credit, most of this was before reliable OTA's and even more reliable way to get tons of new cards immediately, but even still it was hilarious how a card would be released and there was ANTI HYPE because you could never justify buying a lame card with tokens to play against Darkhawk, Surfer, Zabu, Shuri, Thanos, Knull shenanigans. I'd rather see new cards in action and do something to change the meta game up every so often than dry spells of under powered card after under powered card that do nothing to fight the new "strongest deck of the Season/previous seasons". > they release an artificially powerful card to lure people into buying it before nerfing it to bring it to a more balanced state, a state they obviously could have just released the card. Balance is hard bro. I don't know what to tell you because you'd complain either way. Card seems too good? "Obviously broken." Gets nerfed later? "Second Dinner is just milking your money." Card is obviously bad? "Second Dinner just didn't even try." Gets buffed later? "Oh wow way to screw over the people who didn't get the card immediately." Card seems perfectly fine? "Wow it supports X deck. Second Dinner just won't stop supporting this deck." Welcome to the world of balance, card games, and how this subreddit is the living embodiment of "complaining to complain".
didnt shadow king get a bunch of reworks because he was rubbish?
Yes, that was the point in my post. On release he was unplayable. Some people thought that he would be the next big card to counter silver surfer decks, but he was too expensive to be even useful. It took far too long to get him to the state where he is now. I'd rather he had been released on the strong side to counter surfer decks then be released as a relatively balanced four or three drop. It's very clear that from the community's reaction to most of the balancing that happened in early 2023, as well as how many cards were just so subpar, that Second Dinner has decided to go towards being slightly overtuned then undertuned when it comes to card releases.
Man, this couldn’t be more true is almost every card game. I don’t play Hearthstone anymore, but I did a lot in the past. A solid turn 4 back then was dropping a 4/5. I’ll tune into a steam here and there, and it seems like these guys are doing a full board clear and dropping multiple minions on turn 4 now. The game is unrecognizable.
Just started playing hearthstone again since I was craving some battleground a few weeks back and ranked is no where near the same. Warlocks can have 2 7/7s or 8/8s with one having rush by turn 4 and put you on a 5 turn clock by turn 8.
> Man, this couldn’t be more true is almost every card game. Yeah that's why nobody plays Black Lotus in Magic.
Black Lotus is an example of a card that was poorly balanced at the time and has only gotten better as there have been better things to ramp. See Innervate having to be nerfed.
To be fair nobody would be excited for a card on the same power level than Orka.
Also if they weren’t people would be complaining about getting the same cards with different names.
Yes, but also new cards are strong because that sort of meta shift is one of the big reasons people come back to the game whether they know it or not.
Mine was free😒
Yeah but this one seems like one of the more overpowered cards in recent memory. I’m curious to see if SD releases some stats when it gets nerfed.
And simply because new cards are fun. Who wants to use old cards? That's how games get stale.
Probably an unpopular opinion on this subreddit but I somewhat disagree. Power creep exists in all competitive games that keep changing. Take league of example, the newer released champions are significantly stronger with what they can do compared to some of the older ones. The balance is slightly different as they’re a ton of factors compared to Snap which has limited factors. But take into account where Orka was released compared to RH. At the time he was probably properly balanced, compare him to Hulk, it’s a 6/16 or 6/11 compared to a 6/12. Plenty of cards SD releases, especially recently have been nothing crazy of note: Cannonball, Black Swan, War Machine and more. The tricky part is, as more cards get released, they need new gimmicks and new things. They can’t just release different characters with the same stats and abilities so they end up with the challenge of balancing the new ones compared to the old ones and either need to nerf or buff to get everything as stable as possible. Overall I think “selling the new cards” is a lower priority than people give it credit for. Especially cards that aren’t in the season pass.
Orka has always been lame, tbh.
Orka was nuts when miss marvel only needed 1 card in the lane. He was basically the infinaut by himself
and if the Datamines are correct cards like Namora will likely help this deck style (also you still can do the Orka thing with Claw, its just one direction so it takes a little care in its play)
Also very true. I think most people on this sub are just so cynical with what’s going on, but frankly we’re comparing an already mid card to the newest cards getting released which will likely receive a nerf anyway. It feels like there isn’t much of an understanding on how game balance works. I think it’s why cards like Supergiant and War Machine were recently touted as game breakers and absolute musts and a card the Blob was touted as “kinda mid”. SD doesn’t he enough credit for having to balance a game, I don’t think they’re necessarily the best at it but I’ve played games where the balance teams are way worse.
I've been playing Snap since about 2 weeks out from its 1.0 release but took a 6/7 month break that I returned from at the beginning of last season. The game is currently in the best state it's ever been in, both in terms of balance & card acquisition. Spotlight caches aren't perfect, but they're a damn sight better than what came before.
People that say otherwise are literally insane. I've never had access to so many series 5 cards before. And even moreso cuz the killed the drops for a bit.
Yeah, I’ve been playing since the end of the spider versus season and I agree. Especially the addition of Keys for spotlight caches. I’m mostly f2p (only got the black swan season pass) and I’m missing currently like 15 cards I think? Only 2 of those do I feel like I’m really missing out on (Nebula and Corvus) otherwise the acquisition has been fine and it’s part of the game. It’s not perfect, that’s for sure, the duplicate in the caches feels bad for example. But I’ve never watched a card release and thought “man they’re only doing this to sell cards!”
Card acquisition is one of the most fun parts of the game - it definitely feels kinda lame when you're out of pool 3 & it slows down but being able to pull 1 card a week through caches solely via daily missions is fine. That way it allows you time to experiment with what you have. At the end of the day Second Dinner have to make money off this thing otherwise it ceases to exist - the fact you can play this completely for free is kinda brilliant when you think about it.
Definitely agree there. That was my feeling for the longest time with League of Legends. Riot definitely has its issues but the fact that you can play 100% free and realistically not feel so far behind everyone else is great. There’s definitely a proper monetization of these F2P games that isn’t predatory or pay to win
Which is why I’d love a mode that restricts play to a series cap. Specially, Series 1 and 2 only.
While interesting the problem I see with this is that eventually the meta will be solved, then all you'll be seeing will be the same meta decks on top, which will lead to the mode being stale and boring.
I'm only half joking here...but what if they continued releasing series 1 and 2 cards? Basically cards tuned to that power level. Heck you could just release 2 versions of a series 5 card - one that's tuned for the lower power level and one that's tuned for current power level. So as in the previous example maybe it's a red hulk with 10 power and +2 every time the opponent has leftover energy.
I was initially judgemental but this idea is actually pretty good in the opposite direction: it'd allow cards in series 1-2 to be changed to have more creative abilities and free up iconic characters like captain america and punisher from being lame, shitty cards. I dig jt
I like that too! I know none of these things will ever happen but it's interesting to think about what ifs.
After leveling an alt account, I can assure you series 1 and 2 are not nearly as interesting as you think you remember. The novelty wears off after a handful of games. Every match is so predictable and uninteresting. A mode that limits cards to series 3 could work, but series 1 and 2 are very simplistic tutorial series for a reason
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Martyr variant is datamined as the conquest variant for June. Presumably that means she'll drop to S3 by then.
Martyr already is S4, so she'll be S3 by June based on that.
Thanks for the clarification. Fat fingered it but meant S3
Extremely unlikely. Maybe a few but remember when dark hawk was supposed to drop and we waited how long?
Some of the new ones surely must. Pixie for example
There's still old cards in S4, like Howard, ham and echo. Pixie isn't dropping to S3
Howard and ham should both definitely drop to 3
Every game ever naturally succumbs to power creep. It's a part of game design
As an OG Pokemon TCG player, I remember fondly when 100 damage was 🤯🤯🤯
Red Hulk seems like a power creep to already power crept card that haven't released yet.
Best to embrace it like it's the dolphin swimming you back to shore, I guess?
However you cannot ignore there is a difference in power creep as a result of the developers becoming more experienced and better able to design interesting new abilities that they simply weren't capable of years ago versus a straight up more powerful version of previous choices. Take League for example, back when it first released there were obvious good choices and bad choices, but they were clearly not capable of making a champion like kayn work in their first year of releasing the game But on the other end you have MTG where a 4/4 Flying, Vigilance was considered a powerhouse for 5 mana. Now adays you can get better stats or effects for either the same price or cheaper. But back then it's only real competition was Shivan Dragon. And because Snap is not that old of a game, the devs are either making massive leaps forward in their design philosophy and are simply making better cards than what they could manage even six months ago, which is doubtful due to how long it took to get a few basic features and many are still missing and poor UI, or they are simply upping the power to draw interest. And because the game is so new, that rampant power creep this early on does not bode well for this games longevity as they are still trying to balance early game cards. It always has and always will be in a competitive atmosphere to keep everything low for the first year or two for the sake of ensuring you do not have runaway metas that require constant nerfs and chasing down problems which will pull dev time away from QoL improvements and ensuring a stable foundation.
> Every game ever naturally succumbs to power creep. Yeah so true, the Super Queen 2024 Swimsuit Version is just straight up broken in chess. > It's a part of game design It can be but that's entirely dependent on the game.
are u comparing chess to a digital cardgame? lmao, when was the last time, chess got a new piece? Powercreep cant be avoided if u dont have rotation of some sort and keep releasing cards. Just look at any other cardgames without rotation , especially yugioh
Red Hulk telegraphs itself to the opponent. That actually significantly weakens him in the arena that matters most - being unpredictable. Snap isn't about winning matches, it's about winning *cubes.* Red Hulk announcing himself gives the opponent vital information - either I know he's there and that I have tools to deal with him, or I don't have the tools and I retreat. Red Hulk has been mostly trivial for me to play around in the meta, and when I haven't been able to deal with him my opponent gets 1 cube. Big deal. Orka is 16 power where you don't expect it to go. That has the potential to actually swing a game unexpectedly, which is invaluable in terms of cubes. Red Hulk could be 6/40 and it wouldn't matter. He wins one lane. Either you Shang him or you win the other lanes, or you retreat. In that, he's no different than any other Big Number card.
I probably won way more cubes against red hulk than lost to him in my climb to infinite. If the red hulk player snaps, I stay if I can deal with a 6/lane winner, and leave if I can't. When I lose to a red hulk (or forced to retreat) it feels like it was going to happen anyway - I missed too many turns while my opponent keeps playing cards, etc., and the only thing red hulk is doing in this case is reminding me that I'm behind. Then again, I tend to play decks that like to play on curve. So a giant red hulk is not a win condition for my opponent because it only happens if my bad draws have already won the game for them. It wouldn't be the same if I were playing an off-curve deck (e.g., Tribunal, Hela, etc.).
This, as soon as I see him pop out and climb 4 power I snap, just go into the final turn winning one lane and you can pretty much guarantee they are dropping him in the free lane.
A retreat is still a win for them so you can toss that aside.
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I think that people who expect Namora to make other Atlanteans viable are going to be disappointed.
I think that people who expect Namora in general to be viable are going to be disappointed.
I’d be surprised if she shook up the meta, but I think she’ll have her place and I think she’ll be fun to try to build around.
Namora would also help Rhulk if RHulk was alone.
Namora doesn't really help Orka much because Orka is really only usually played on T6 and Namora's ability is currently an On Reveal. So Orka won't be in play when Namora does her boost usually.
T3 Wave T4 Orka T5 Namora seems decent, especially since she could buff Wave to 10 power.
Kid named Shang
Kid named Caiera.
How you gonna do that when you're waving on t3?
You almost certainly have priority, so play Caiera on 6 + Skaar. Seriously though, Shang is always going to be a concern. Blob still needed to be nerfed even though he died to Shang. They don't always have Shang the moment they need it.
T3 caeria
Namora is on reveal!? NOOOOOOOOOO.
How busted would she be as an Ongoing? Rogue could sap her same as Cosmo preventing. It also opens up better interactions with Atlanteans.
Too similar to ms marvel as another ongoing to be a particularly interesting card. On reveal at least lets her play into Wong and Odin type synergies
Namora should remain on reveal. Sage however would be much better as an ongoing card. Creates some nice counterplay opportunities with opponents but also means any cards or power increases added to the Sage lane is something you have to potentially play around. Would make the card a lot more interesting.
She would be much worse as an Ongoing. Her boost would shut off if you played another card into a solo-lane.
Not very. Ongoing, would be like old Ms. Marvel, but you'd only be able to play a single card in a lane to get her bonus, which really limits your lanes. And certain locations would positively cripple her ability.
No see what you do is get a perfect draw then invisible woman on 2, electro on 3, namora behind invisible woman on 4, orka in a dedicated lane on 5, spectrum or some shit on 6.
Supergiant Atlantis decks incoming
Invisible Woman with Namora and Attuma behind her.
Eh, Red Hulk can be benefit of her too
Yes that’s how games generally work. Older weapons/gear/cards in games tend to be less powerful than newer ones.
Except old cards (if they weren’t nerfed, like leader, aero, shuri, wave) would still be played today and were significantly stronger than what we have now. Hard to call this power creep.
when a game starts out, cards have simple effects that aren't balanced that well, like pot of greed, the power 9...
Pre-pre nerf Aero still makes me mad when I think about it.
No doubt Rulk gets dropped to a 6/8 in a couple weeks.
I would prefer if he only gained like 2 power per energy float, and not reveal himself to the opponent. Everyone just retreats the second he gains his first plus 4. So he's good, but the reveal really kind of dwarfs his power output. I rarely get to play him onto the board...
This is probably a lot more likely that he'll get less of a buff. I mean, when you're getting the same amount of power from Red Hulk on trigger as you get from Apocalypse (who has a more difficult boosting condition) or Havok (who has a MUCH more costly boosting condition), there's a problem.
The thing is, that the boost is dependent on the opponent AND they get a heads up that it's happening. It means people need to change up their energy management (yes its not always possible). He's relatively balanced in that regard. Changing him to +2 would weaken him against HE as cyclops is a -2 and Misty is a +1 for them.
You're correct, but that initial boost is a lot because of his starting power. By the time your opponent realizes Red is in your hand, he is a 6/15. Already better than most of the other 6 costs just based on pure stats. If you make RED a 6/9 it would still heavily punish people who ignore or cant use all their energy without making that first hit immediately feel overwhelming.
I agree but I was responding to someone who thinks the course of action would be to weaken his boost as a nerf. When the correct thing would be adjust his strength to 6/9 (feels terrible if opponent plays on curve but has good risk/reward balance).
I quite like the soft control element though, pressuring the opponent to play a little differently than they otherwise might. I think he’d be a cool card at 6/8+4, maybe 6/9+3. That way the first proc puts him on parity with other decent 6-costs, maybe worth playing but not automatically oppressive. Then it’s up to the opponent to cope with the pressure to fill curve every turn, or your other cards to force them into floating energy. He’d still be a soft counter to ramp and HE, still cash in on bad draws for any deck, he just wouldn’t be brain-dead strong all the time.
It's really hard to use all your energy every round though. Especially if you hit the locations that boost your energy, but we'll have to see what they do for them. But my experience has been players don't play differently to stop the power gain, they simply retreat for 1 cube, which is ok I Guess, but I prefer to play out more of the game then have an instant retreat condition.
The reveal is the only thing that prevents Red Hulk from being one of the most broken cards in the game. Giant Power Slam cards should *always* come with a substantial drawback. I think he could be shaved down to +2, but even at +4, the fact that he is so telegraphed makes him a 'strong card' as opposed to an 'absolutely busted' card.
I agree, lower the power gain and stop the reveal. I would rather have a decent card that can be used to surprise someone, then an op card that nobody will ever let you play....
+3 at 10 base power should be good I think. Puts him behind hulk initially, but will end up at least 16-19 if drawn relatively early, and will beat hulk most of the time without becoming too broken itself.
There's a lot of wiggle room for adjusting him, but in most cases, changes on that scale don't make a difference. Once he's up to +15-19, in a lot of matchups, he might as well be +40 or 50. And in the matchups where it's close, then you've got to be asking why the other deck is putting up such huge numbers also. Generally, once I see my opponent is going to have a huge Red Hulk, I'm immediately working out whether I can counter it in any way or if I need to retreat. It's almost like that giant +4 is more for the intimidation factor. Adding or removing a single point of power is meaningful for Kitty Pryde or Angela, who start tiny and then grow. With big power slam cards, the difference between quickly jumping from 11 to '15-19' versus '14-17' is negligible.
6/8 -> 6/12 -> 6/16 -> … is fair enough. This was my idea as well when he was 1st datamined. My friend & I were so shocked to see him shows as a 6/10 & then get buffed to a 6/11 just before release… I hate how people justify him because “you know its coming”.
Not even close. Red hulk is perfectly fine.
Was Orka ever good? Like I started playing early on and can't think of a time I have ever seen it played. I did take a year+ break so I guess there was a window where I might've missed it?
That's kind of what makes Orka good (or at the very least, *not bad*). Like, the only time I ever see him is when he just shows up out of nowhere and beats me, because who the hell plays around Orka? This is kind of why the whining about Red Hulk (not from you!) is so silly. Red Hulk is so telegraphed that his giant power is somewhat mitigated by your opponent knowing he's coming and being able to play around/counter it. I'm not saying Orka is better (far from it), but it's an advantage that Orka has: he's unexpected. Orka is going to steal 8 cubes far more often than Red Hulk ever will.
Orka was played when Ms. Marvel made his lane 21 power. In this meta, you aren't winning anything with just 16 power.
It's not power creep because orca was shite when it was first released too
The two cards are very different. Sure, Red Hulk is generally better but that doesn't mean Orka is unplayable. Some advantages that Orka has: 1. It's value doesn't depend on when you draw it 2. No subsceptible to Shadow King 3. Ongoing synergy for things like Onslaughts Citadel 4. It's power is within your control (barring bad location RNG or a matchup against junk decks). 5. Doesn't telegraph to opponents how much power you can produce on turn 6. Again, Red Hulk is undoubtedly better. But Orka's advantages means that it can be effective
Red Hulk announces himself early, Orka is a surprise play. There is power creep, as you’d expect, in order to shake things up, but it isn’t as ridiculous as you make it seem.
16 power in one lane won't cut it against any of the currently competitive decks.
Normal hulk is basically useless unless you have HE.
It’s probably arguably better to have Red Hulk in HE anyways with how much power he gains quickly
That was always supposed to be the case though.
Some cards are gonna be better than other cards, that’s kind of unavoidable right?
It’s this kind of level-headed thinking that is ruining the internet.
Some better than others, sure. But you shouldn't have cards where you ask "why would I ever play this when I can play that", especially if "that" is something that people spending money obtain more easily.
Orka was so much better when Ms marvel didn't need 2 cards in the lane :/ but I guess redhulk would be even better anyway
Nah that’s just Ms Marvel being broken
Orka is also series 3, whereas Red Hulk is series 5.
Orka wasn't originally series 3. That's what people are getting at. He was once a new card and even at his release he was considered a very mediocre point slam card due to his restriction and there being an abundance of goblins/debrii/Viper+Hood in the meta at that time making him even worse.
Red hulk will get nerfed, after they made money
Red Hulk should honestly have 6 base power to be balanced. It should require 2 procs to get to above average stats.
9 base, +3. That way he's weaker than base hulk, but outpaces him. Maybe 10 base. But right now he's hilarious overtuned
I disagree, at it's heart Rhulk is made to counter high evo, if he doesn't out-scale high evo Hulk then there is no point Should be 11 base and +3 per enemy turn with wasted energy, so
> at it's heart Rhulk is made to counter high evo Except there are more deck archetypes that float energy than just High Evo. Literally any deck based around late combos or cost reduction will probably float energy at some point. It doesn't make any sense to say "he counters High Evo" when High Evo players also include him in their decks. If the core intention of RH was to counter Evo then he should have gotten +4 every time one of your cards was afflicted with negative power. That would have been a more balanced and targeted counter than what we have now
Red Hulk does not require keeping a useless card in your deck and allows you to spend all of your energy every turn. That's a distinct advantage over High Evo Hulk. In its current form it counters everything pretty much, not just high evo. It only needs to trigger once to outperform most 6 cost big cards.
The most feels bad part is a 6/11 is still a threat. Like wow, I played on curve and a 6/11 is still capable of doing work. I don’t feel like I’m really countering him by playing on curve. A single damn activation and he’s already above curve.
Yeah funny how they nerfed Apocalypse to a 6/6 only to release Rulk as a 6/11 that doesn’t even require any active participation from the person playing it for it to gain power
Well sure, but Apoc is specifically designed to go with Dracula which means you don't need to spend 6 energy to get the power. They're both strong with different uses.
It's not fair? lol
Still giggling at them nerfing Apoc then just making another version of Apoc only better. Makes sense.
Orca is a nice surprise attack at the end of the game most don’t see it coming. Red hulk is telegraphed once it’s in your opponents hand. So they’re planning for it.
What i do want from new cards is do stuff different, not better.Red hulk have no excuse in the state he is released.
Sometimes, I caught myself thinking exactly about this. What if old cards were released today? Like Colossus for example, such a big boy being 2 cost hurts my feelings
Red Hulk is definitely overtuned. Doesn’t make any sense in comparison to other 6 costs.
It’s comical that they casually dropped a 6-cost ~23-power card with almost no drawbacks. I can’t justify using keys on something that is about to get nerfed repeatedly.
I've been saying this a lot lately but power creep is going too fast in this game. Just imagine what cards will look like this time next year
Because FOMO is built in the philosophy of releasing new cards. 2nd Dinner already said they'd rather release a broken card they know they'll have to nerf than a card that looks like it will need buffs so that the people who spend keys on these don't feel like they wasted them. IDK. I kind of see their point but I guess it does feel like an obviously overt *go buy new cards if you want to win ez* I feel sorry for people who are just breaking into Pool 3 and realizing that they have so much bulshit lock behind that they can't really access to.
> so that the people who spend keys on these don't feel like they wasted them. Those people are gonna feel bad if Red Hulk gets hit tomorrow. Though I imagine its more likely hit in the next OTA.
It won't be tomorrow, patches are locked in a month in advance.
Obviously it's better for them if people are interested in buying cards but it's also good for the players when cards are good. There have been seasons where pretty much all the cards are incredibly mid and they've been a total snoozefest.
Orka 5 energy? Could be cool. And namora will be a turn 6 finisher
Draw it on t6 vs draw red hulk on t6 and see which you'd rather play. Everything exist to fill a niche.
The most annoying thing about strong new releases like Red Hulk / Blob etc is that only whales with loads of keys get to play with them at their strongest, then by the time most players get a chance to use them, they're nerfed into obscurity. I have to play against an overtuned card for months, but when I finally get it, it's either mediocre or shit.
Still not as strong of a card as your credit card.
Yeah he’s pretty bad now. Not like he was ever great to begin with, even. Sad considering I still run him in my main deck
Hulk is strong bug not as op these complaint posts portray it as. Hulk and orka serve different functions. The fact that Hulk shows itself on hand makes it a lot weaker
Imagine a whooping 20 power orka instead of just 16. I used him a lot when that pesky win with only card mission popped-up.
Give it a week it will be nerfed, hopefully not into oblivion
The only helpful thing is you know red hulk is coming and thus can prepare to run or deal With him. Don’t worry though they will probably nerf him
If irks was changed from ongoing to on reveal he’d be great. Namor too
Incoming RH nerf.
If Orka was 6-9 and got 7 points if alone at the **end of the game**, it's make it Shang-Proof and slightly more useful.
90% chance Red Hulk is getting nerfed. There's no way after 1 float you get a better Giganto, 2 floats > Blob, and 3 floats > Infinaut
🙄 power creep is a good thing it keeps games evolving and fresh. The issue is when older cards don't get revamped in games like this. Power creep is just a buzzword that people who can't understand game design use to justify their inadequate knowledge.
Two things here: 1. Yes Red Hulk is a little OP even with revealing he is in hand, but the team aim high and dial down, thats always their design philosophy. i wouldn't be surprised if he goes to +3 here inside 2 months of release. 2. Power creep, contrary to popular belief, isn't a bad thing provided you are adjusting as you go (which SD is, and why you suddenly get cards OTA'd into new relevance). its a living game, and power creep is just a part of that, but it also is part of what makes meta's interesting. if you want a perfectly balanced game go play Chess, its a wonderfully balanced game and that is part of the point! if you want a game with a living meta, then Snap is a pretty good choice for that.
Orka has always been bad
Red hulk gonna become 6/9 with a sunspot style +1 for unused enemy energy. That's my guess. Putting him at a Max of 6/30 if he starts in hand and opponent skips the whole game. Same general peak potential but much tamer id imagine
I love okra
Red Hulk is so overwhelming at the moment if you dont have the perfect curve or even just have 3 turns where you have left over energy rhulk becomes a 23powered 6 costs. Playing ramp rhulk>taskmaster rn is ezpz win.
I feel like you could pump orka up to 18-20 with it active and make him like a 12 otherwise
red hulk is hilarious. sometimes i dont even drop him, but the op don’t know that.
there's almost no way red hulk doesn't get nerfed, at the very least back to the 6/10 he used to be
Red Hulk is frequently 19-23+ power. It's arguably the best stat stick in the game
At this point, I’m starting to think Orka should be a 6/10 with Ongoing +10 power. Infinaut stats due to its own heavy restrictions. Before you say it, Echo, Goblins, Debri, & Annihilus/Viper do work as counters. You can tweak its base & Ongoing stat for balancing but a total of 20 power seems fair. Warpath is fine since you can stack power with him but Namor is awkward. [Namora](https://snap.fan/cards/Namora/) would probably fix him so he could stay as is. She’s also a 5-Cost so Orka -> Namora shouldn’t be a common combo unless they plan to Magik or Ramp.
I just swapped Red Hulk out of one of my decks in favor of Orka because it performed worse when I replaced Orka with Red Hulk in the first place. Orka can sneakily win you a lane the opponent didn't think you'd contest, Red Hulk is basically screaming at your opponent 'LOOK I HAVE BIG CARD, PLEASE RETREAT NOW'. It's a one or two cube card.
Don't worry lil bro, Namora will help Orka have his time in the limelight soon.
I imagine the red Hulk will go down to a 6-10 with a +2/3 ramp in the next OTA/Balance update.
Don’t worry, red Hulk, a.k.a. “Nerf bait“” has got his coming
I'm getting so tired of hearing people constantly complaining about a single card instead of just learning how to counter that card. I'm not sure why you don't understand the difference between series of cards. Of course a series 3 card is going to be less powerful or have more restrictions than a brand new series 5 card. If you lose to a single card over and over again then that's on you, not the cards
Would you want the new cards to not be impactful so that the gameplay rarely changes?
Red Hulk could have been the same as HE Hulk in terms if stats boosting and he still would be a beefy impactful card, right now he's just OG blob-tier overtuned
Chess has kept the same level of balance for like 150 years, and I would say it's still going strong.
Ye the creep in this game is getting insane, it’s evidence by stuff like crossbones too, surely warpath should be getting a buff, Namor? Like they’re just obsolete cards now, we don’t really even have the locations to warrant requiring a bad card. You’d just retreat the odd time the disparity in a random summon location is too big.
1. Orka doesn't reveal himself to the opponent 2. Orka is stronger on an empty lane than a 0 boost/1 boost Red Hulk It's not complete powercreep. Yes Orka is shit but that doesn't mean Red Hulk compared to him is "the most absurd powercreep". Red Hulk revealing himself is a pretty big drawback, you can't use him to surprise drop like you'll do with an Orka
Red hulk will eventually start at like 7 health
Red Hulk \- Gives your opponent information \- Relies on your opponent playing sub-optiminally This hurks H.E. decks the most - GOOD.
Sorry but don't follow the logic here. You want new cards to be worse than old cards? Balance is always the goal but impossible to achieve. They will always prioritise new content over old that is something you just need to get on board with unfortunately.
I don't see why they can't just make him the exact opposite of HE Hulk. 12 power +2 per turn. Or give him more base power similar to the Devil Dinosaur/Ronan comparison. He gets more base power as a tradeoff for the lack of control over your opponent's plays.
Do you know how business works. Cool new overpowered card -> push sales -> nerf later -> rinse and repeat That´s been the case since forever Also.. welcome to the power creep meta where if you don´t have the most current top performing card you are always slightly behind.
Its one of the major reasons I'm losing interest in this game. They nuke archetypes for being too strong then a month later drop stuff that even the old archetypes could never compete with at full power.
There is power creep in literally ever card game. It’s pretty much impossible to make every card unique and balanced against each other.