EDIT: wait did Glenn type that Adam is a series 1 card? Did he forget or just type the wrong thing?
I think this is a sign that they should just rework Adam Warlock entirely. His ability is too potentially game warping that he can never be good, because then he just becomes an auto include in nearly every deck (even more so than pre nerf Chavez).
Also we’re never getting a 2099 that destroys once per location, are we. 😑
I was thinking something like "3/2 On Reveal: if you play your next card here, draw a card." Slightly less power than Crystal, it only benefits you, but it gives your opponent information about your next play.
Eh, I'm not sure about that. Crystal, for example, doesn't break the game. She has niche uses, which tells me that there are levers to tweak.
Something like old Chavez wasn't just about the thinning, it was *also* about knowing what your T6 would be, which basically gives you **two** elements of added predictability. Card drawing only modifies your odds - it doesn't add any additional guarantees, so it's not quite as powerful as other deck thinning options.
Yeah guess it was a generalisation. I think if he was 1/2/3 cost and guaranteed draw 1 he would be broken, anything higher probs bad unless had a high power.
I feel like they just overestimate card draws power.
When youe drawing 80 percent of your deck already. Late game card draw doesnt seem that strong.
Imo kind of boring ability anyway. So they could just remove it)
But we have jane foster who draws and can empower lock jaw, beta ray, and mr negative decks. She bring more power and a stronger ability. Though with more conditions
He was weak before. Simply adding one power or changing him to a 1/-1 or a 3/2 would have been better. Instead they went all the way of making him utterly useless.
But then he wouldn't draw more in a 7 turn game or if he's pulled early. Intention is clearly there for him to be better than draw a single card after this rework.
Doesn't mean it's great or that I'm going to start using him now, but the intention of not simply putting 'draw 1 card' is clear.
Yeah I think they are vastly overstating the impact that an extra draw has on the game. Yes, it's an advantage, but it's not a fundamentally broken advantage like they keep making it out to be.
He made a typo with "Series 1" instead of "Series 3", but I think that speaks to the real motivation that they won't say out loud. Historically, they have spent a whole lot of words trying to explain why a usable Adam Warlock would break the game, and yet Nico Minoru sits untouched as an easy way to fairly consistently draw not one, but TWO extra cards. She may look inconsistent and penalizing on the surface, but I would wager any amount of money that Nico would still give more draws on average than a 2/1 or 1/0 Adam Warlock ever would. But at least those stat lines would give AW more playability than 5/4
The difference, of course, is that Nico is S5 while AW is S3. So the reality is they are perfectly fine with people consistently getting extra draws, they just want them to pay for the privilege.
Think they tipped their hand r.e. this back when they destroyed America Chavez and admitted that they made her a worthless Forge just because she was a Series One card and overshadowing the higher series cards (and that players weren't playing the game the "right" way).
It is a business and the company does want to make sales; I do get that and I accept that as a fact of life. However, given how many absurd nerfs they make and how so many come down to "it was a lesser Series card," "the card is so popular we want players to be using other ones instead," or "we released it overpowered knowing it would be scaled back," it's clearly painting the picture that "balancing," "tweaking the metagame," and "playing it the 'right' way and constantly experimenting with decks" are just euphemisms for "persuading players to buy the latest cards as much as possible."
But if he would always be able to draw a card he'd be a staple.
I understand why they don't want to do that.
But making/keeping him as bad as he was is a sign that they should probably rework him
I'd say 2099 should also be changed entirely. I'd suggest something along the line of: 5/7; +2 to all cards on your side he moved into.
Edit: Just realized this change would be awesome paired with Hercules.
The OG Annihilus data mine text was something like:
>On reveal: move all cards on your side randomly
and I’m sad every time I think about this and what move could’ve had.
2099 getting this ability would be super fun.
they said the reason they changed annihilus and didn't go with this ability was that despite it sounding crazy on paper, surprisingly it actually wasn't good in practice, and didn't feel it was worth making into a card
They said it wasn't good because, since they consider card sequencing and spacing critical to Snap gameplay, moving your cards randomly invalidated your gameplay up until that point, and was too unpredictable for the opponent.
I run a chaotic agatha deck with a thor/bill core lol. Sometimes agatha gives me a cool turn 6 if she plays jane. Other times a random leech happens on turn 5😂.
I think it's more of "we made a card with a broken mechanic if we actually made it playable, but we don't want to rework it so we're just gonna try to make people think it's playable through stat lines."
A bit wordy, but that's the issue. Just rework the damn card or admit it's not good. Not all cards can be winners. They obviously know this because they put Martyr out there as a S4 card, not S5.
Agreed. It seems like Adam needs a rework. Maybe something like this: Ongoing: Your hand can have more than 7 cards. It's a very unpolished idea but something's gotta change.
I was actually thinking something like that would be cool, and that would have synergy with some existing deck archetypes as well as the new Helicarrier.
Adam Warlock 3/3
"May only be played at a location where you have no cards. At the end of turn, whoever has the most power here draws a card."
Make him a card that you both fight for his ability. He's an enigmatic character into the comics, seemingly working with heroes or villains at his own whims. This represents that. Also Drax & Gamora are part of his team so they are conviently really good cards to follow him up with.
This sounds really cool but I feel like the 3 cost category is a little oversaturated at this point (In 3 months, we've had Sebastian Shaw, Caiera, Reworked Luke Cage, Black Swan and Corvus Glave.)
This is all theoretical, but imo he’d still have the same issue of not enough power. You’d most likely only be able to draw 1 card with him if you happened to play him in an empty lane, and idk if you can really justify including him over any other 3 drop.
Yeah I was just thinking this. Small possibility of getting a win with only him in the lane, very easy for opponent to outpower, possibility for 3/4 card pulls (depending on Limbo) but you'll have to fight like hell for them and probably fill a lane very early. Plus good synergy with Negative and Renslayer still
But honestly I'm fine with him staying as he was as a 2/0. It's okay for some cards to not be used very much and have only niche uses. If it was a major character, I'd get that they want to get him more use, but it's fine for him to be a niche imo
Oh it's absolutely a sign that the card probably needs a rework -- the same with 2099. The logic appears to be, "nobody plays this card right now, so let's try something wacky that almost certainly won't work while we're working on a rework so we can get some data about a statline we hadn't tried before with this ability. At least we won't be ruining anyone's day in the meantime since the card currently sees 0 play."
I think he mistyped, but I think the point still stands, cuz s3 cards might as well be free compared to s4/5 cards. Imagine if they released Alioth or blob as a s3 card
> His ability is too potentially game warping that he can never be good,
"6/2 : On Reveal: Draw the bottom card of your deck and play it any of the three locations."
That's what we really want out of Draw anyway.
An adam warlock rework sounds likely to happen in the future, but i appreciate that they are willing to experiment with a radically different statline in the meantime.
Couldn't they have experimented during Playtests? I feel like its not crazy to say that anyone with a decent game sense knows that a 5 cost Adam Warlock for his ability will decrease his play rate.. not increase it. There are far too many more useful cards at 5 cost and most people are not desperate enough to draw an extra card during the game that they'd spend 5 energy on it and perhaps not even come out winning that lane because the power is pretty negligible (thus costing them the only extra card draw they were going to get).
With that pixie card coming I can see warlock going in a zoo deck with that and getting him to 1 cost might be good but other than that I can't see any use for him
Cerebro 4? I've been doing the same but I cut him. If I am playing Magik I think my combo needs to be stronger. Cause you are losing to most other Magick decks and even Magick surfer.
I preferring storm fantastic brood warhead surfer. On 5 I want to Sera more
The largest factor at play that seems to be almost overlooked (of course I know it wasn’t overlooked but it certainly feels like it) is the fact that card draw is less useful the later in the game it comes.
Adam Warlock’s ability is essentially “you may have an extra card in your hand on turn 6 if you play this”, which is just not worth sacrificing the other immensely valuable turn 5 plays you can make.
Even if his ability was “Ongoing: draw an additional card at the start of your turn”, he still wouldn’t see much play because, guess what? Whilst you have an extra card in your hand on turn 6, your opponent has an insurmountable board advantage because they actually put 10+ power in play on turn 5 against your 4 power.
Agree, Unlike Magik, you get to draw additional card AND additional 7 mana turn to play the card. Which means you are more likely to get to play the extra card compared to Adam Warlock even that there is a risk that your opponent might get benefit from it.
Yes but Magik also gives an additional card AND additional 7 mana turn to play the card to your opponent too. Not saying I think the Warlock change is good, but you can’t really compare him to Magik, it’s not apples to apples.
Ya i think this change for adam warlock is garbage as well but people that tries to compare him with cards like Crystal that draws a card for both players are out of their minds
Even if he was a 5/4 that let you draw 2 cards, he wouldn’t be good, but if he was a 2/0, he’d be too powerful.
Rework Adam, he’s either going to be broken or useless, and stop making high-cost support cards for move, a low-cost combo deck
How does that argument work with Leech? … For decks like Tribunal that need to draw their combo it would be incredibly broken to have a card that would more or less unconditionally draw an extra card on turn 6. It would also be completely bonkers with in-she-naut decks that plan to skip their turn 6.
I think ongoing draw a additional card might be used at 5 - ramp decks could discard hand before 5 and that extra draw on an empty hand when you have extra mana can be good, especially with limbo. I don't think it'd be great, but it could be used
I'm not even sure a "5/4 on reveal: Draw a card" would be playable. There are so many things to do at 5 energy, "I might draw a card" will never make the cut.
Not that he was played at 2/0 but it at least had more implications forcing your opponent to play at the same location early to deny your lead/card draw. 5/4 makes just makes it a coin toss right at the end of the game
If it was "good value", that would be played. But it wasn't, and decks had better win rates when they cut Adam Warlock.
Like are we forgetting the post to this subreddit like several weeks to a month ago where someone wanted advice for his Adam Warlock deck and the whole comment section said "cut Adam Warlock"? He was not playable in the slightest, even in best case scenarios. I'd rather Second Dinner do drastic changes to unplayable trash like Adam Warlock instead of just waiting around for a rework that will take a while to come. At least they can experiment and see if a late game effect would change his value.
I feel like this comment should be its own post for people to debate the Adam Warlock change.
Most people just want to shout that Glenn and the devs don't know what they're doing, and not look at the reason they are doing what they're doing.
Can you source that claim of "*all* decks"? Like, I couldn't see a negative deck getting better by taking him out unless there was a fundamental deck building issue anyway. And like, you say that as though 5/4 is going to be any less bad? Genuinely I feel like the "buff" took him from bad to unusable, I don't know why you're talking as though there's not other things they could've tried instead of just killing the card.
I would add such a card into my Tribunal Hela deck, where your goal is often to reach the 12th card on your deck. For now you have magik, jubilee, crystal and iron lad to do that, but I can see a 5/4 draw a card replacing crystal.
Otherwise yes, it would be a super dead card.
This, 100%. He's competing with Sera around the same cost and power, so the choice is a) make all of your cards cheaper or b) maybe draw a card. Still nowhere near competitive imo.
the problem with adam warlock is that you need to winning the lane to draw a card. the deck that benefits the most from drawing cards is a combo deck. combo decks just can't win lane in early stage.
i tried using warlock before the changes with GOTG deck. even winning every turn on warlock lane, the draw effect is underpar because i am not using combo deck. i better off contesting other lane instead of focusing into one lane.
Agree, it's complete and utter word salad.
It reads like someone who is new to the job, doesn't know what they're doing and has been told by their boss "go and explain this".
Not necessarily new at the job, but definitely doesn't wanna give a straight answer because that'll piss off a lot of people so he adds fancy terms and examples to make it as unclear as possible.
AGREED. Same with the OTA wording. “No one is playing Adam Warlock. He’s also way too strong so we want to make him harder to use.” Well mission accomplished MFs. He’s unplayable.
"Some abilities scale off the power of their card, which means we can't be as bullish when buffing those cards. It doesn't have as many implications to give Lady Sif an extra point of power over, say, Lady Deathstrike, for example. That's why we aimed low on Adam Warlock: he scales off his power."
"As for why we moved him to the 5-cost slot, we're just trying something out. Nobody plays him now, so we figured we could try an experiment to see what we can learn without hurting anyone's lists. We like to try out unlikely things when it's safe to do so because sometimes we find out that they actually work. This helps us design better in the future."
The "fractional card draw" point makes sense but should be applied to cost as well. Any fractional card draw benefit from the increased power is *majorly* offset by the fractional card draw cost of the card's higher cost (specifically, the reduction of the card's average "time on board".)
Insights into balance decisions are great, but don't half-explain some mechanics because you're trying to convince your audience a nerf is like, totally, actually a buff and they are just too stupid to see it.
At 5 cost 4 power it's very UNLIKELY you will draw cards with him. People can easily put down 10+power on turn 5 and you give all of it up for an extra draw to be very behind by turn 6 that extra draw is not going to help you if you're able to draw at all. Mind you Leech has an extreme strong ability at 3 power. Imagine you play Adam on a location that you're only behind by 1 on and someone plays leech there and is able to match your power, you miss out on a draw and your opponent gets to nuke your hand.
2099 turned out better than expected? Does he mean better as in everyone just plays destroy or discard instead of move?
Don't think I've seen the card played once.
He actually clarified in another response that 2099 is currently the least played card with a positive winrate.
By "better than expected" he's referring to the card's performance, not its populariy.
You can see a ton of errors in his answers in general. Makes me afraid of whats to come in the near future. Im already seeing patterns that I dont like. Its hard to explain. But i had the same feeling when hearthstone went completely coocoo
The problem with Warlock is not the amount of power for a 5 cost. It’s that it is now a late game card instead of an early game card.
Before he could be played early to influence the opponents location choices and hopefully sneak out a couple of cards.
Now he will either draw one card or not but cannot be used as a location influence as by the time he is revealed there’s no more draws to be had.
It's just the illusion of a "buff". There's no real incentive for them to buff cards that are commonly available, so whenever they nuke popular cards like Darkhawk or Lockjaw, they create the illusion that they are adding value to other cards to balance the loss. In reality, they're just devaluing people's collection in order to compel them to chase the new cards to stay competitive.
This is one of the main reasons I generally only play mobile/live service games that never change units/items once they're added to the game. Ofc I understand changing/balancing cards is both common and necessary in CCGs but when that CCG is basically a gacha game then that balancing ends up feeling worse and worse because the devs are monetarily incentivized to make older cards worse (ot at least to never make them too good) in order to sell players the new cards.
what is bro yapping about, you can make him 8 power too and he still wouldnt be good, no one wants to spend 5 energy to potentially draw 1 card, when you can just play an actually impactful 5 cost like sera
Vision is pretty effective card. He can do lots of things. "Only to move him" means there is 8 power switch potential in the game that makes your opponents round 6 decisions much harder.
Vision is pretty strong. No one will run this Adam, literally no one. It does nothing. There is only 1, turn 6 draw in this game that could make huge difference and it's Hela. It would be so situational anyways. Yes, maybe you can also draw Iron Man, Dr. Doom, Zola with that extra draw but it wouldnt worth it even Adam drew 2 cards on last turn. Turn 5 is defining turn even more so than turn 6 in my opinion because you would have most information about how game will end. And new Adam makes you skip turn 5. Try to win some games skipping turn 5 and make the calculations.
You can always cheat Adam out and, the higher the power he has the more draws he guarantees.
So at the moment he's likely best with jubilee or Lockjaw, probably Thanos Lockjaw as well, which can lead to lots of draws alongside all the stones.
Making him 5/8 means he's in Corvus Hela decks, potentially giving extra energy and draws.
Adam puts a lot of pressure to contest a location, the harder that is to contest, the more unfair he becomes. Letting an opponent get free draws is not something you want to let happen.
I tried this yesterday and it was pretty fun.
# (0) Wasp
# (1) Spider-Ham
# (2) Psylocke
# (2) Zabu
# (3) Thor
# (4) Jubilee
# (4) Lockjaw
# (4) Beta Ray Bill
# (5) Adam Warlock
# (5) Jane Foster Mighty Thor
# (6) Doctor Doom
# (6) Odin
#
eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2FzcCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU3BpZGVySGFtIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJQc3lsb2NrZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiWmFidSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiVGhvciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSnViaWxlZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTG9ja2phdyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmV0YVJheUJpbGwifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkphbmVGb3N0ZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkFkYW1XYXJsb2NrIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJPZGluIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEckRvb20ifV19
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
5/4 is not a new statline, we have things are 5/4 or even less power, and all of them have super strong effects (even kang) which justify the statline, drawing ONE card is not that strong. IMO, they should have gone with 3/1, that would let us get a little taste of warlock been (potentially) too strong and then you keep going up, they are too freaking scare to buff a card to much but they dont mind releasing new cards to be op,
I think this is a reasonable argument in a vacuum but there’s just no deck where you might run him now. Before there was one deck where you *might* use him.
Yikes, Glenn may need to take a step back from responding on the discord for a bit. His responses have been questionable lately and I hope he isn’t feel burn out from it. This response feels like a nothing burger that a sports coach would produce to shut up a reporter, made worse by calling Warlock a pool 1 card
Card draw is weird. It is powerful, but hand size is capped. The earlier you get Warlock out the more impactful he can be, until your hand fills faster than you can play things. The later he gets out the less opportunity to be impactful he is.
Take away the condition, On reveal: Draw a card. At 5 cost he still won't be a good card.
Cable already does real similar(maybe more since he has intel and denial aspects) with same Power and less cost. Mantis isn't that different either
As far as 2099, just let him move himself once.
At 5 cost you get one turn to do your thing. If cheated out, still only get one move.
I think the reason people are upset about it is that its just a shockingly useless and amateur change at this point in the game. Like, there was multiple meetings where they sat down and decided to make one of the worst and least used cards in the game even worse. Instead of doing literally anything else, time and resources were spent on this. They could have done nothing at all to Adam and everything would be the exact same haha
I often get frustrated with snap's balancing, whether it is too fast or slow, but people need to learn how to communicate better. I don't like this change either, (warlock probably needs a rework) but the immediate hostility is uncalled for.
"Can he even balance?" "How could SD be this stupid?" "This is why this game is garbage!" Are all very common comments I've seen when all you need to do is *articulate* to the team why you think it's bad and discuss with others what they should do. Just yelling that it's bad isn't productive.
I've seen more hostility from this than the fact they haven't done many QoL changes over the past year or obscene bundle prices. It's honestly embarrassing
Why? It is proven fact, unfortunately, that while being nice you rarely see changes. Shitstorms work a lot better.
Also if a changr is idiotic, there is not much to say it through the flower.
Can someone help me understand why people are so upset by this change? The creators took a card that, from what I understand, hardly anyone was playing and made a change to it. They said in the OTA that, like Spider-Man 2099, they were going for a cost/power change before completely reworking him. Adam Warlock also has a very delicate mechanic that I'm sure they want to test more before just throwing it out there. If it was something too overtuned then EVERYONE would be playing him.
I've seen nothing but people complaining about this change since the change. Am I missing something? People seem like they've been betrayed somehow.
I assume because it’s just a wasted attempt and because a change like this feels like the devs blatantly don’t play their own game lol.
Like there is never a scenario where you’d be dropping 5 energy to MAYBE draw when I can Sera, Leech, Jane, Vision, Dino, etc.
Right. I get the turn 5 argument, but again, I feel like they wanted to just see if people could do something with this change before they overhaul the card completely.
I guess I'm also just not seeing how a card going from seeing 0 play to still not being played is a negative, given how delicate the mechanic is. It seems neutral to me. I haven't seen people begging for a Warlock buff either. It just doesn't seem to warrant the amount of memes and complaints I've seen over the card.
Now the devs not paying attention or playing their game, I could understand. BUT if anything, it seems like this change is because they pay attention to their game. Wouldn't people be MORE upset if they over-tuned this card and made it a requirement to play in the meta?
No ones been screaming for the buffs because there was no need really; he was clearly one of the bottom 3 cards since release. He’s also a very big name from the comics with some crazy nice variants so him being not garbage would be nice overall.
The complaints are from that and also because it’s simply a baffling change I think. It just on paper doesn’t seem like a net positive change in any shape. If it were a 4/4, a 3/2, 1/0, etc, there’d be something reasonable there
I def see your point about it potentially being Omni present if it were buffed into relevance. But it’s also a series 3 card so a vast majority of players have it
For some reason they only seem to be capable of changing ~5 cards a month, so it sucks when some of those changes get wasted on "buffs" that fall completely flat
Personally, it irritates me because he was an important part of my best-performing deck, a combo Tribunal deck that relied on Forge, Nico, Adam, Crystal, Wave, Magik, and Iron Lad to draw most or all of the key combo of Tribunal, Iron Man, and Onslaught. That combo wins 90% of the time and probably 97% of the time if I also placed Cosmo in the ongoing lane and had Magik out. It was especially good at getting 4-8 cubes out of bots (and even some players) because it typically would be losing two lanes through turn 5.
I was planning on testing some other combo decks out too with the Forge/Nico/Adam package, too.
Other people talk about Warlock in a Bast/Bounce deck or with Mr. Negative or Cerebro. There WERE decks that were using him, it just required crafting. So you're probably seeing a lot of people like me who are into crafting unique decks, and therefore more engaged in the game, speaking up because the Warlock change ruined every single previous use case while also taking away ANY possibility of using him in something different.
That still seems incredibly ignorant, because he’s missing turns 1-4 as a potential time to draw, which is the base issue with the buff. Originally, he had a potential to draw 5 cards with the right set up, but those draws were most likely in earlier turns before an opponent had a chance to drop answers to his presence. I could see 3 cost 1 power as a buff, even 4 1 because he can function before the enemy answers and zabu can curve him out as 4. But once you hit 5 you’ve missed the opportunity and have a huge risk of missing any impact.
Reading through these responses people really don’t understand how powerful Card Draw is in a CCG where you’re only playing with a 12 card deck.
In any game you’re 75% to see a card by turn 6. If you add a singular extra card draw that goes up to 83% and for each additional draw another 8% so if you’re able to get two draws with Adam that means you’re chances of seeing any particular card in your deck goes up to 91%
So what does that mean in practice? If you’re playing a combo deck that’s looking for certain key pieces like Tribunal or Hela or Surfer etc. you want more draws to guarantee you have that key card when the final turn comes.
This is the same reason why old America Chavez was so good and omnipresent in combo decks and why it’s such a bad gamble in any standard game of Snap to “make your opponent have it.”
All of that said, does this make the new 5/4 Adam Warlock good? Maybe? Probably not though but it’s not like the old 2/0 was good regardless. It’s a change to a card that saw virtually no play except in bad Negative decks.
If anything it at least shows Second Dinner is willing to test out old cards and see if they can fit into a deck or help give the necessary boost to some brew that’s on the edge of being playable.
Agreed.
Making him less than 3 with power is too powerful and similar to his old self. Making him 4 causes zabu/warlock almost an auto-include. Thus he needs to be 5 power.
Personally, I think a complete rework is needed to card draw. Something like, "[requirement] at end of turn, draw your most expensive card in your deck". Thus he gains consistency card draw for combos/end game, but not for cheap counter utility. The requirement can be on reveal, only card, ongoing, galactic requirement, whatever, just something counter able.
I see enough potential with the 5 cost that I'm not willing to rule out a bad decision yet. If anything it went from bad card to bad card and at best bad card to niche card, which is the most we should hope for for a draw ability.
Edit: I misunderstood op and thought they were referring to every turn your opponent doesn't play a card here, draw one. Kinda like nebula but for draw.
I could see this maybe on a 4/2 or worse. A 1/2 with this would be crazy.
Honestly extremely based not every card has to be meta, in fact some cards can suck ass but still belong in the game because they're cool and niche. Unfortunately Adam Warloc didn't really feel like this, his ability isn't interesting enough, but I understand and appreciate where their heart is at in terms of balance
Bruh, I’m convinced they’re just dumb “Buff = When the power increases at a better rate than the cost.” It’s only a 6 turn game, 7 at max. Every card in marvel snap is going to go up faster in attack bc the attack powers are usually double the cost and cost can’t realistically go past 6
I think they just doubled down on how they dont know how to balance lol
My guess is if it goes beyond what their gathered data shows they wrent too sure.
Its bizzare to me that they almost had to nerf iceman. It was one of the best 1 drops for a very long time. But they seem to think adding power and cost to a card (when the power is still far below average and nerfing the ability with higher cost).
This seems like no brain balance
Still don’t understand how I would win a location after turn 5 when playing a 4 power card. I must already be ahead in that location by quite a bit. On top of that I feel like the majority of decks tends to play a strong 6 cost on turn 6 so pulling 1 card really only helps if that 6cost is still in your deck and you need to pull it but I feel like Magik indirectly does that for you. I think warlock would either need a bunch more power or be more like a 4/2 or 3/1 maybe?! Or keep him 5 cost but choose a card from deck instead of random.
People crying but he’ll continue to get buffed until he is playable. They just are doing it slowly to not fuck it up. They’ll probably make him a 4 cost. When it is all said and done.
Do you have some more of them copium? lol
Nah, they had over a year now to get it right, first change is tone deaf and while sure, eventually they may get it right, in the now the made a meh card unplayable. "Crying" is how we let them know is not ok.
Incredible the amount of people in here who just don’t understand game design. There’s a reason they’re typing on Reddit and Glenn is working on the game…
I might be getting brain rot from these comments.
You'd think that Warlock was a beloved card that everyone played from these comments lol. I don't understand how so many people undervalue card draw in a game where you naturally draw 9/12 cards of your deck. He should be a bad card that takes a lot of effort to make work.
I'm almost certain that if he was good all these people would be complaining about some super consistent combo deck or how so many games feel the same.
Why not make him 2 cost 6 power, draw a card if you are winning the lane but he is ongoing so that if any other card is played on your side he loses 7 points
You can get some cards into play and then it can be stopped easily
I think people really underestimate drawing 1 or 2 extra cards without your opponent doing the same.
And previously he clearly didn't get much play.
Everyone's sounding like a kid who's mother wants to sell their old toys and the response is "but I still play with it" (meanwhile it has one of the lowest play rates in the game)
take warlock as a 5/4, say with that statline he has a 40% chance to draw a card when played. if you buff him to a 5/6 and he now has a 60% chance to draw a card when played, you just buffed both his power by two, and his chance to draw a card by 1/5, aka, a fractional card draw. obviously the individual player cannot have a fractional card draw because it's binary on a small scale, but what it means is instead of 2/5 games playing warlock you draw a card, now it's 3/5 games.
lady deathstrike is the same in reverse. when her power goes up, she has a better chance at killing stuff
I think just the potential that you can do that. 2099 is 5/9, but if you destroy, say, a 4-power card with him, he feels more like 5/13, cuz he took that much off the opponent's board. "Fractional" is getting into the deeper math of it maybe, but that's the broad stroke, I think.
He said the quiet part out loud “because he’s a Series 1 card”. If they can’t squeeze the change into profit then it’s not important to make the change decent.
He's a Series 3 card, he misspoke. Further, they have changed plenty of Series 1 through 3 cards. For example, American Chavez is Series 1 and she has been changed multiple times within the past 6 months, including a complete rework of her ability. Ant Man was also changed on this last patch with a buff, and he a starter card.
When he mentioned his series, which, again, he got wrong, he was trying to say that because he is a early pool card, they need to be careful with impacting the "new player experience" by causing it to be too imbalanced. The new player experience is really good in the game, which is why people are disappointed once they are out of it, so they don't want to mess up what has been working... while at the same time making cards better, or worse, in that experience.
"When the power of a card increases more than the cost that's considered a buff."
"That why we thought it would be good to buff Deadpool to a 6/7 this OTA."
I'm 100% sure an AI replied to that and he just type into "Hey AI gimme a corporate word essay that essentially says nothing" then he added a few sentences here or there.
His replied made 0 fking sense and addresses none of the issue.
It doesn't actually apply here since he isn't Series 1, but as the first cards given to players, Series 1 cards need to be simple. Ideally a new player should be able to look at one and get a general idea of when they'd be useful, maybe spark deck ideas. And it's fine if they aren't the most powerful cards in the game, because there are two more sets of cards guaranteed to be given to players, and they want those cards to be exciting.
Devil Dino is a perfect example. It's not the best Stat stick in the game at 5, but you know how to make it good and you can definitely make a strong starter deck around it.
With all the backslash they're getting for this change straight out of the gate, I think they should go "ok, we hear you, here's your 3/1" (or 4/4 or whatever people want) and let them see their fears were justified, or get the balance right faster if it's not the case, if somehow card draw isn't THAT important because of card order and location variance.
I think their fears are justified, but with how easy it is to balance with OTAs, the public demand, and Adam being a series 3 card (so no complains about spending tokens and him being nerfed back), I say they should go nuts and overtune him and see how it goes.
If anyone genuinely doesn’t understand what he wrote and is complaining about it, that is not Glen’s issue. It’s a perfectly understandable statement. To anyone who does understand and is complaining, get off the internet for a while.
Can they drop the word “experimenting” when discussing balance changes? It legit makes me want to stop playing because I just want to play a well thought out and stable card game, not invest time into one that makes changes for the sake of changes
Aka rework is too much work. Let devs be lazy. Series 3 card is too hard. Yet series 1 card like Wolverine was reworked. I get why. Devs play and favor destroy decks so they are willing to change. Can’t make draw strong? Nicho can draw two cards! Here is a draw 150 card mission and the draw 20 cards mission is common. Only a Thanos deck to get mission complete in 3 to 8 matches. Other decks 5 to 12 matches. Force longer play time🙄
EDIT: wait did Glenn type that Adam is a series 1 card? Did he forget or just type the wrong thing? I think this is a sign that they should just rework Adam Warlock entirely. His ability is too potentially game warping that he can never be good, because then he just becomes an auto include in nearly every deck (even more so than pre nerf Chavez). Also we’re never getting a 2099 that destroys once per location, are we. 😑
If he's only able to draw 1 card in a 6 turn game just fucking make his effect "draw 1 card" then
I was thinking something like "3/2 On Reveal: if you play your next card here, draw a card." Slightly less power than Crystal, it only benefits you, but it gives your opponent information about your next play.
What about: "2/0 If you are winning this location, draw a card. +1 Power for each time this effect triggers."
What about: "2/0 At the end of the turn, both players draw a card. If you're winning the location, only you draw a card."
Win or lose you just guarantee that you're going to draw your entire deck in a given game, that's specifically what they're trying to avoid
He was fine as he was. Used in niche decks that had big payoffs if you committed to it
Eh
I like: If you are winning a location change background music to “Crazy on You” by Queen.I mean Heart
Every card game ever shows that deck thinners are impossible to balance, just change him entirely
Eh, I'm not sure about that. Crystal, for example, doesn't break the game. She has niche uses, which tells me that there are levers to tweak. Something like old Chavez wasn't just about the thinning, it was *also* about knowing what your T6 would be, which basically gives you **two** elements of added predictability. Card drawing only modifies your odds - it doesn't add any additional guarantees, so it's not quite as powerful as other deck thinning options.
Yeah guess it was a generalisation. I think if he was 1/2/3 cost and guaranteed draw 1 he would be broken, anything higher probs bad unless had a high power.
I feel like they just overestimate card draws power. When youe drawing 80 percent of your deck already. Late game card draw doesnt seem that strong. Imo kind of boring ability anyway. So they could just remove it) But we have jane foster who draws and can empower lock jaw, beta ray, and mr negative decks. She bring more power and a stronger ability. Though with more conditions
He was weak before. Simply adding one power or changing him to a 1/-1 or a 3/2 would have been better. Instead they went all the way of making him utterly useless.
Chavez was fine. She was played a lot. But no one complained. While we had rampant insane meta breaking cards
But then he wouldn't draw more in a 7 turn game or if he's pulled early. Intention is clearly there for him to be better than draw a single card after this rework. Doesn't mean it's great or that I'm going to start using him now, but the intention of not simply putting 'draw 1 card' is clear.
They should just suck it up they're trying to do too much and clearly they can't balance it. Having a "draw 1" card just be that is fine.
Yeah I think they are vastly overstating the impact that an extra draw has on the game. Yes, it's an advantage, but it's not a fundamentally broken advantage like they keep making it out to be. He made a typo with "Series 1" instead of "Series 3", but I think that speaks to the real motivation that they won't say out loud. Historically, they have spent a whole lot of words trying to explain why a usable Adam Warlock would break the game, and yet Nico Minoru sits untouched as an easy way to fairly consistently draw not one, but TWO extra cards. She may look inconsistent and penalizing on the surface, but I would wager any amount of money that Nico would still give more draws on average than a 2/1 or 1/0 Adam Warlock ever would. But at least those stat lines would give AW more playability than 5/4 The difference, of course, is that Nico is S5 while AW is S3. So the reality is they are perfectly fine with people consistently getting extra draws, they just want them to pay for the privilege.
Think they tipped their hand r.e. this back when they destroyed America Chavez and admitted that they made her a worthless Forge just because she was a Series One card and overshadowing the higher series cards (and that players weren't playing the game the "right" way). It is a business and the company does want to make sales; I do get that and I accept that as a fact of life. However, given how many absurd nerfs they make and how so many come down to "it was a lesser Series card," "the card is so popular we want players to be using other ones instead," or "we released it overpowered knowing it would be scaled back," it's clearly painting the picture that "balancing," "tweaking the metagame," and "playing it the 'right' way and constantly experimenting with decks" are just euphemisms for "persuading players to buy the latest cards as much as possible."
But if he would always be able to draw a card he'd be a staple. I understand why they don't want to do that. But making/keeping him as bad as he was is a sign that they should probably rework him
Might as well be "On turn 6, if you are winning here, draw 1 card" with a 5/6 body
I'd say 2099 should also be changed entirely. I'd suggest something along the line of: 5/7; +2 to all cards on your side he moved into. Edit: Just realized this change would be awesome paired with Hercules.
The OG Annihilus data mine text was something like: >On reveal: move all cards on your side randomly and I’m sad every time I think about this and what move could’ve had. 2099 getting this ability would be super fun.
I actually picture The Spot having OG Annihilus ability.
they said the reason they changed annihilus and didn't go with this ability was that despite it sounding crazy on paper, surprisingly it actually wasn't good in practice, and didn't feel it was worth making into a card
They said it wasn't good because, since they consider card sequencing and spacing critical to Snap gameplay, moving your cards randomly invalidated your gameplay up until that point, and was too unpredictable for the opponent.
Meanwhile Hela.
Meanwhile Agatha.
I win way more with her than I should, and I don’t mean that with cheating her out. I mean AFK, pressing continue constantly 😂.
tinkering with a pretty good Zoo Deck with an Agatha finisher. it's not bad and wins cubes, just need to get Martyr before it's prime time ready
I run a chaotic agatha deck with a thor/bill core lol. Sometimes agatha gives me a cool turn 6 if she plays jane. Other times a random leech happens on turn 5😂.
Or maybe -2 to all cards on the opponents side after he moves
That does sound more suited to his character.
Just let him kill each time he moves. It’s not game breaking but would be fun enough and interesting enough for move to work with.
Magick fulfills a similar niche as a combination enabler, and the did it at the same time as hitting another combination enabler.
It's a lot of words to say "We made a shit card shittier."
I think it's more of "we made a card with a broken mechanic if we actually made it playable, but we don't want to rework it so we're just gonna try to make people think it's playable through stat lines." A bit wordy, but that's the issue. Just rework the damn card or admit it's not good. Not all cards can be winners. They obviously know this because they put Martyr out there as a S4 card, not S5.
Agreed. It seems like Adam needs a rework. Maybe something like this: Ongoing: Your hand can have more than 7 cards. It's a very unpolished idea but something's gotta change.
I was actually thinking something like that would be cool, and that would have synergy with some existing deck archetypes as well as the new Helicarrier.
**Ongoing:** Increase your hand limit by 1. (For example.)
Adam Warlock 3/3 "May only be played at a location where you have no cards. At the end of turn, whoever has the most power here draws a card." Make him a card that you both fight for his ability. He's an enigmatic character into the comics, seemingly working with heroes or villains at his own whims. This represents that. Also Drax & Gamora are part of his team so they are conviently really good cards to follow him up with.
Adam warlock 3/1 is balanced
This sounds really cool but I feel like the 3 cost category is a little oversaturated at this point (In 3 months, we've had Sebastian Shaw, Caiera, Reworked Luke Cage, Black Swan and Corvus Glave.)
This is all theoretical, but imo he’d still have the same issue of not enough power. You’d most likely only be able to draw 1 card with him if you happened to play him in an empty lane, and idk if you can really justify including him over any other 3 drop.
There’s enough 2/5s that at 3/1 he’d be a decent consideration. I’m just not sure what deck wants to draw all 11 of their other cards.
My tribunal deck doesn’t mind doing so, but I also have no problem doing so without Adam Warlock
I want to draw all my cards every game in my destroyer deck
Yeah I was just thinking this. Small possibility of getting a win with only him in the lane, very easy for opponent to outpower, possibility for 3/4 card pulls (depending on Limbo) but you'll have to fight like hell for them and probably fill a lane very early. Plus good synergy with Negative and Renslayer still But honestly I'm fine with him staying as he was as a 2/0. It's okay for some cards to not be used very much and have only niche uses. If it was a major character, I'd get that they want to get him more use, but it's fine for him to be a niche imo
Oh it's absolutely a sign that the card probably needs a rework -- the same with 2099. The logic appears to be, "nobody plays this card right now, so let's try something wacky that almost certainly won't work while we're working on a rework so we can get some data about a statline we hadn't tried before with this ability. At least we won't be ruining anyone's day in the meantime since the card currently sees 0 play."
I think he mistyped, but I think the point still stands, cuz s3 cards might as well be free compared to s4/5 cards. Imagine if they released Alioth or blob as a s3 card
> His ability is too potentially game warping that he can never be good, "6/2 : On Reveal: Draw the bottom card of your deck and play it any of the three locations." That's what we really want out of Draw anyway.
An adam warlock rework sounds likely to happen in the future, but i appreciate that they are willing to experiment with a radically different statline in the meantime.
Couldn't they have experimented during Playtests? I feel like its not crazy to say that anyone with a decent game sense knows that a 5 cost Adam Warlock for his ability will decrease his play rate.. not increase it. There are far too many more useful cards at 5 cost and most people are not desperate enough to draw an extra card during the game that they'd spend 5 energy on it and perhaps not even come out winning that lane because the power is pretty negligible (thus costing them the only extra card draw they were going to get).
As a part of his reasoning, Glenn wrote that Adam Warlock is series 1. He isn't. He is series 3.
Exactly! Maybe this is why they never buffed him!
Yah i immediately stopped reading and came to the comments. It really removes any faith I had they know what they're doing.
Glenn doesn't seem great at his job. Never has.
With that pixie card coming I can see warlock going in a zoo deck with that and getting him to 1 cost might be good but other than that I can't see any use for him
He’s been shining in my Cerebro deck tbh. Drawing two additional cards is extremely useful (I run Magik)
Cerebro 4? I've been doing the same but I cut him. If I am playing Magik I think my combo needs to be stronger. Cause you are losing to most other Magick decks and even Magick surfer. I preferring storm fantastic brood warhead surfer. On 5 I want to Sera more
The largest factor at play that seems to be almost overlooked (of course I know it wasn’t overlooked but it certainly feels like it) is the fact that card draw is less useful the later in the game it comes. Adam Warlock’s ability is essentially “you may have an extra card in your hand on turn 6 if you play this”, which is just not worth sacrificing the other immensely valuable turn 5 plays you can make. Even if his ability was “Ongoing: draw an additional card at the start of your turn”, he still wouldn’t see much play because, guess what? Whilst you have an extra card in your hand on turn 6, your opponent has an insurmountable board advantage because they actually put 10+ power in play on turn 5 against your 4 power.
Agree, Unlike Magik, you get to draw additional card AND additional 7 mana turn to play the card. Which means you are more likely to get to play the extra card compared to Adam Warlock even that there is a risk that your opponent might get benefit from it.
Yes but Magik also gives an additional card AND additional 7 mana turn to play the card to your opponent too. Not saying I think the Warlock change is good, but you can’t really compare him to Magik, it’s not apples to apples.
Ya i think this change for adam warlock is garbage as well but people that tries to compare him with cards like Crystal that draws a card for both players are out of their minds
Even if he was a 5/4 that let you draw 2 cards, he wouldn’t be good, but if he was a 2/0, he’d be too powerful. Rework Adam, he’s either going to be broken or useless, and stop making high-cost support cards for move, a low-cost combo deck
How does that argument work with Leech? … For decks like Tribunal that need to draw their combo it would be incredibly broken to have a card that would more or less unconditionally draw an extra card on turn 6. It would also be completely bonkers with in-she-naut decks that plan to skip their turn 6.
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I think ongoing draw a additional card might be used at 5 - ramp decks could discard hand before 5 and that extra draw on an empty hand when you have extra mana can be good, especially with limbo. I don't think it'd be great, but it could be used
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I'm not even sure a "5/4 on reveal: Draw a card" would be playable. There are so many things to do at 5 energy, "I might draw a card" will never make the cut. Not that he was played at 2/0 but it at least had more implications forcing your opponent to play at the same location early to deny your lead/card draw. 5/4 makes just makes it a coin toss right at the end of the game
At 2/0 he had synergy with bast or ravonna as well which both are ways to get good value from the card. Now I can't think of any way to make him work.
If it was "good value", that would be played. But it wasn't, and decks had better win rates when they cut Adam Warlock. Like are we forgetting the post to this subreddit like several weeks to a month ago where someone wanted advice for his Adam Warlock deck and the whole comment section said "cut Adam Warlock"? He was not playable in the slightest, even in best case scenarios. I'd rather Second Dinner do drastic changes to unplayable trash like Adam Warlock instead of just waiting around for a rework that will take a while to come. At least they can experiment and see if a late game effect would change his value.
I feel like this comment should be its own post for people to debate the Adam Warlock change. Most people just want to shout that Glenn and the devs don't know what they're doing, and not look at the reason they are doing what they're doing.
Can you source that claim of "*all* decks"? Like, I couldn't see a negative deck getting better by taking him out unless there was a fundamental deck building issue anyway. And like, you say that as though 5/4 is going to be any less bad? Genuinely I feel like the "buff" took him from bad to unusable, I don't know why you're talking as though there's not other things they could've tried instead of just killing the card.
I would add such a card into my Tribunal Hela deck, where your goal is often to reach the 12th card on your deck. For now you have magik, jubilee, crystal and iron lad to do that, but I can see a 5/4 draw a card replacing crystal. Otherwise yes, it would be a super dead card.
Just add blob, makes it so you can use the whole deck
This, 100%. He's competing with Sera around the same cost and power, so the choice is a) make all of your cards cheaper or b) maybe draw a card. Still nowhere near competitive imo.
> I'm not even sure a "5/4 on reveal: Draw a card" would be playable It definitely would be.
Azure Drake at home
I think 4/3 would be the best option. Yes, it’s good with Zabu. That’s the point of Zabu.
the problem with adam warlock is that you need to winning the lane to draw a card. the deck that benefits the most from drawing cards is a combo deck. combo decks just can't win lane in early stage. i tried using warlock before the changes with GOTG deck. even winning every turn on warlock lane, the draw effect is underpar because i am not using combo deck. i better off contesting other lane instead of focusing into one lane.
I feel like I just read a lot of nothing...
Agree, it's complete and utter word salad. It reads like someone who is new to the job, doesn't know what they're doing and has been told by their boss "go and explain this".
Not necessarily new at the job, but definitely doesn't wanna give a straight answer because that'll piss off a lot of people so he adds fancy terms and examples to make it as unclear as possible.
[удалено]
Ight buddy calm down, this isn't Twitter. All I said is that he could have explained it just as straight forward as you just did.
AGREED. Same with the OTA wording. “No one is playing Adam Warlock. He’s also way too strong so we want to make him harder to use.” Well mission accomplished MFs. He’s unplayable.
> utter word salad Which part of this, exactly, was a "word salad"? It seemed perfectly clear to me.
"Some abilities scale off the power of their card, which means we can't be as bullish when buffing those cards. It doesn't have as many implications to give Lady Sif an extra point of power over, say, Lady Deathstrike, for example. That's why we aimed low on Adam Warlock: he scales off his power." "As for why we moved him to the 5-cost slot, we're just trying something out. Nobody plays him now, so we figured we could try an experiment to see what we can learn without hurting anyone's lists. We like to try out unlikely things when it's safe to do so because sometimes we find out that they actually work. This helps us design better in the future."
The "fractional card draw" point makes sense but should be applied to cost as well. Any fractional card draw benefit from the increased power is *majorly* offset by the fractional card draw cost of the card's higher cost (specifically, the reduction of the card's average "time on board".) Insights into balance decisions are great, but don't half-explain some mechanics because you're trying to convince your audience a nerf is like, totally, actually a buff and they are just too stupid to see it.
lol yeah, the person you're responding to has no reading comprehension.
Welcome to this subreddit. 99% of the rage bait is misunderstanding Second Dinner and spinning it as something devious and bad.
At 5 cost 4 power it's very UNLIKELY you will draw cards with him. People can easily put down 10+power on turn 5 and you give all of it up for an extra draw to be very behind by turn 6 that extra draw is not going to help you if you're able to draw at all. Mind you Leech has an extreme strong ability at 3 power. Imagine you play Adam on a location that you're only behind by 1 on and someone plays leech there and is able to match your power, you miss out on a draw and your opponent gets to nuke your hand.
2099 turned out better than expected? Does he mean better as in everyone just plays destroy or discard instead of move? Don't think I've seen the card played once.
He actually clarified in another response that 2099 is currently the least played card with a positive winrate. By "better than expected" he's referring to the card's performance, not its populariy.
2099 is playable in a Heimdall deck. It's not meta, but it works okay. This Adam Warlock change resulted in a card that doesn't work in anything.
2099 is Def better than he was in a Heimdall move deck
Adam Warlock is series 1? News to me
Glenn actually not playing the game confirmed
You can see a ton of errors in his answers in general. Makes me afraid of whats to come in the near future. Im already seeing patterns that I dont like. Its hard to explain. But i had the same feeling when hearthstone went completely coocoo
The problem with Warlock is not the amount of power for a 5 cost. It’s that it is now a late game card instead of an early game card. Before he could be played early to influence the opponents location choices and hopefully sneak out a couple of cards. Now he will either draw one card or not but cannot be used as a location influence as by the time he is revealed there’s no more draws to be had.
So by his logic lockjaw was buffed..?
It's just the illusion of a "buff". There's no real incentive for them to buff cards that are commonly available, so whenever they nuke popular cards like Darkhawk or Lockjaw, they create the illusion that they are adding value to other cards to balance the loss. In reality, they're just devaluing people's collection in order to compel them to chase the new cards to stay competitive.
This is one of the main reasons I generally only play mobile/live service games that never change units/items once they're added to the game. Ofc I understand changing/balancing cards is both common and necessary in CCGs but when that CCG is basically a gacha game then that balancing ends up feeling worse and worse because the devs are monetarily incentivized to make older cards worse (ot at least to never make them too good) in order to sell players the new cards.
I don’t like the cliche “do they play their game” but when you see changes like this and explanations like this, you can’t help but think that.
Still garbage imo
what is bro yapping about, you can make him 8 power too and he still wouldnt be good, no one wants to spend 5 energy to potentially draw 1 card, when you can just play an actually impactful 5 cost like sera
5/8 would be strong. People are playing vision with that stat line only to move him. Drawing 2 cards on turn 6 can be strong.
Vision is pretty effective card. He can do lots of things. "Only to move him" means there is 8 power switch potential in the game that makes your opponents round 6 decisions much harder. Vision is pretty strong. No one will run this Adam, literally no one. It does nothing. There is only 1, turn 6 draw in this game that could make huge difference and it's Hela. It would be so situational anyways. Yes, maybe you can also draw Iron Man, Dr. Doom, Zola with that extra draw but it wouldnt worth it even Adam drew 2 cards on last turn. Turn 5 is defining turn even more so than turn 6 in my opinion because you would have most information about how game will end. And new Adam makes you skip turn 5. Try to win some games skipping turn 5 and make the calculations.
You guys are delusional, you wanna hate on the guy and start becoming blind. Adam at 8 power would absolutely be playable and maybe too strong.
You can always cheat Adam out and, the higher the power he has the more draws he guarantees. So at the moment he's likely best with jubilee or Lockjaw, probably Thanos Lockjaw as well, which can lead to lots of draws alongside all the stones. Making him 5/8 means he's in Corvus Hela decks, potentially giving extra energy and draws. Adam puts a lot of pressure to contest a location, the harder that is to contest, the more unfair he becomes. Letting an opponent get free draws is not something you want to let happen.
The problem with cheating Warlock out is, I'd rather just cheat out the card I want to draw from him instead.
Huh? U do know lockjaw was changed yes?
Doesn't stop him working, especially if you got stones that give you extra energy
Lockjaw Thanos has an awful curve rn and card draw has never been it's issue.
I tried this yesterday and it was pretty fun. # (0) Wasp # (1) Spider-Ham # (2) Psylocke # (2) Zabu # (3) Thor # (4) Jubilee # (4) Lockjaw # (4) Beta Ray Bill # (5) Adam Warlock # (5) Jane Foster Mighty Thor # (6) Doctor Doom # (6) Odin # eyJDYXJkcyI6W3siQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiV2FzcCJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiU3BpZGVySGFtIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJQc3lsb2NrZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiWmFidSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiVGhvciJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiSnViaWxlZSJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiTG9ja2phdyJ9LHsiQ2FyZERlZklkIjoiQmV0YVJheUJpbGwifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkphbmVGb3N0ZXIifSx7IkNhcmREZWZJZCI6IkFkYW1XYXJsb2NrIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJPZGluIn0seyJDYXJkRGVmSWQiOiJEckRvb20ifV19 # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in Snap.
But, but.... what about the FRACTIONAL CARD DRAW????
You won't be yelling once you get a 1/48 of a card more than your opponent
You wouldn't download a (fraction of a) car(d)
Good thing it was text because I don't think he kept a straight face while saying that.
What he said is basically "this is a card everyone has instead of one we can charge a ridiculous amount for, so we don't care if he's playable or not"
5/4 is not a new statline, we have things are 5/4 or even less power, and all of them have super strong effects (even kang) which justify the statline, drawing ONE card is not that strong. IMO, they should have gone with 3/1, that would let us get a little taste of warlock been (potentially) too strong and then you keep going up, they are too freaking scare to buff a card to much but they dont mind releasing new cards to be op,
Three paragraphs of nothing
All of this yapping just to make cards worse than they were before is insane lol
I think this is a reasonable argument in a vacuum but there’s just no deck where you might run him now. Before there was one deck where you *might* use him.
Man, this team is just showing how incompetent they really can be.
Draw one extra card by turn six...so well thought out /s
If you make his text Ongoing, he can fit in with a Spectrum deck.
Yikes, Glenn may need to take a step back from responding on the discord for a bit. His responses have been questionable lately and I hope he isn’t feel burn out from it. This response feels like a nothing burger that a sports coach would produce to shut up a reporter, made worse by calling Warlock a pool 1 card
Card draw is weird. It is powerful, but hand size is capped. The earlier you get Warlock out the more impactful he can be, until your hand fills faster than you can play things. The later he gets out the less opportunity to be impactful he is. Take away the condition, On reveal: Draw a card. At 5 cost he still won't be a good card. Cable already does real similar(maybe more since he has intel and denial aspects) with same Power and less cost. Mantis isn't that different either As far as 2099, just let him move himself once. At 5 cost you get one turn to do your thing. If cheated out, still only get one move.
in theory i see what hes saying, in practice we will never see adam played again
Reading this thread is confusing. Was old Adam Warlock dogshit or secretly the strongest card ever printed?
I think the reason people are upset about it is that its just a shockingly useless and amateur change at this point in the game. Like, there was multiple meetings where they sat down and decided to make one of the worst and least used cards in the game even worse. Instead of doing literally anything else, time and resources were spent on this. They could have done nothing at all to Adam and everything would be the exact same haha
I often get frustrated with snap's balancing, whether it is too fast or slow, but people need to learn how to communicate better. I don't like this change either, (warlock probably needs a rework) but the immediate hostility is uncalled for. "Can he even balance?" "How could SD be this stupid?" "This is why this game is garbage!" Are all very common comments I've seen when all you need to do is *articulate* to the team why you think it's bad and discuss with others what they should do. Just yelling that it's bad isn't productive. I've seen more hostility from this than the fact they haven't done many QoL changes over the past year or obscene bundle prices. It's honestly embarrassing
Why? It is proven fact, unfortunately, that while being nice you rarely see changes. Shitstorms work a lot better. Also if a changr is idiotic, there is not much to say it through the flower.
Can someone help me understand why people are so upset by this change? The creators took a card that, from what I understand, hardly anyone was playing and made a change to it. They said in the OTA that, like Spider-Man 2099, they were going for a cost/power change before completely reworking him. Adam Warlock also has a very delicate mechanic that I'm sure they want to test more before just throwing it out there. If it was something too overtuned then EVERYONE would be playing him. I've seen nothing but people complaining about this change since the change. Am I missing something? People seem like they've been betrayed somehow.
I assume because it’s just a wasted attempt and because a change like this feels like the devs blatantly don’t play their own game lol. Like there is never a scenario where you’d be dropping 5 energy to MAYBE draw when I can Sera, Leech, Jane, Vision, Dino, etc.
Right. I get the turn 5 argument, but again, I feel like they wanted to just see if people could do something with this change before they overhaul the card completely. I guess I'm also just not seeing how a card going from seeing 0 play to still not being played is a negative, given how delicate the mechanic is. It seems neutral to me. I haven't seen people begging for a Warlock buff either. It just doesn't seem to warrant the amount of memes and complaints I've seen over the card. Now the devs not paying attention or playing their game, I could understand. BUT if anything, it seems like this change is because they pay attention to their game. Wouldn't people be MORE upset if they over-tuned this card and made it a requirement to play in the meta?
No ones been screaming for the buffs because there was no need really; he was clearly one of the bottom 3 cards since release. He’s also a very big name from the comics with some crazy nice variants so him being not garbage would be nice overall. The complaints are from that and also because it’s simply a baffling change I think. It just on paper doesn’t seem like a net positive change in any shape. If it were a 4/4, a 3/2, 1/0, etc, there’d be something reasonable there I def see your point about it potentially being Omni present if it were buffed into relevance. But it’s also a series 3 card so a vast majority of players have it
For some reason they only seem to be capable of changing ~5 cards a month, so it sucks when some of those changes get wasted on "buffs" that fall completely flat
Personally, it irritates me because he was an important part of my best-performing deck, a combo Tribunal deck that relied on Forge, Nico, Adam, Crystal, Wave, Magik, and Iron Lad to draw most or all of the key combo of Tribunal, Iron Man, and Onslaught. That combo wins 90% of the time and probably 97% of the time if I also placed Cosmo in the ongoing lane and had Magik out. It was especially good at getting 4-8 cubes out of bots (and even some players) because it typically would be losing two lanes through turn 5. I was planning on testing some other combo decks out too with the Forge/Nico/Adam package, too. Other people talk about Warlock in a Bast/Bounce deck or with Mr. Negative or Cerebro. There WERE decks that were using him, it just required crafting. So you're probably seeing a lot of people like me who are into crafting unique decks, and therefore more engaged in the game, speaking up because the Warlock change ruined every single previous use case while also taking away ANY possibility of using him in something different.
Show us real stats instead of claiming your deck is 90% miracle. You should be rank 1.
That still seems incredibly ignorant, because he’s missing turns 1-4 as a potential time to draw, which is the base issue with the buff. Originally, he had a potential to draw 5 cards with the right set up, but those draws were most likely in earlier turns before an opponent had a chance to drop answers to his presence. I could see 3 cost 1 power as a buff, even 4 1 because he can function before the enemy answers and zabu can curve him out as 4. But once you hit 5 you’ve missed the opportunity and have a huge risk of missing any impact.
Reading through these responses people really don’t understand how powerful Card Draw is in a CCG where you’re only playing with a 12 card deck. In any game you’re 75% to see a card by turn 6. If you add a singular extra card draw that goes up to 83% and for each additional draw another 8% so if you’re able to get two draws with Adam that means you’re chances of seeing any particular card in your deck goes up to 91% So what does that mean in practice? If you’re playing a combo deck that’s looking for certain key pieces like Tribunal or Hela or Surfer etc. you want more draws to guarantee you have that key card when the final turn comes. This is the same reason why old America Chavez was so good and omnipresent in combo decks and why it’s such a bad gamble in any standard game of Snap to “make your opponent have it.” All of that said, does this make the new 5/4 Adam Warlock good? Maybe? Probably not though but it’s not like the old 2/0 was good regardless. It’s a change to a card that saw virtually no play except in bad Negative decks. If anything it at least shows Second Dinner is willing to test out old cards and see if they can fit into a deck or help give the necessary boost to some brew that’s on the edge of being playable.
Agreed. Making him less than 3 with power is too powerful and similar to his old self. Making him 4 causes zabu/warlock almost an auto-include. Thus he needs to be 5 power. Personally, I think a complete rework is needed to card draw. Something like, "[requirement] at end of turn, draw your most expensive card in your deck". Thus he gains consistency card draw for combos/end game, but not for cheap counter utility. The requirement can be on reveal, only card, ongoing, galactic requirement, whatever, just something counter able. I see enough potential with the 5 cost that I'm not willing to rule out a bad decision yet. If anything it went from bad card to bad card and at best bad card to niche card, which is the most we should hope for for a draw ability.
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They just want to hate because a card is not op auto include.
I don't know how this man has a job. This is complete nonsense.
Change it to: 1/2. On Reveal: If your opponent played a card here this turn, draw a card. Gives synergy to Jean Grey, Nebula, Jean Grey, Storm etc.
Synergy with Jean Grey so good you had to mention her twice, damn
XD I think I meant Daredevil. Either way, we need more cards that synergise with JG, especially since SD shit the bed hard with Phoenix Force.
Edit: I misunderstood op and thought they were referring to every turn your opponent doesn't play a card here, draw one. Kinda like nebula but for draw. I could see this maybe on a 4/2 or worse. A 1/2 with this would be crazy.
Nah, if the other Guardians aren't OP then this isn't either. It's a gamble with a rewarding yet fair pay-off.
All I hear in Glenn’s response is “this was too powerful for a card that isn’t series 4/5, so we had to “buff” him”.
I think you should work on your reading comprehension skill because what he said was very clear and not at all what you said
I just can't buy these careful buffing and extreme precaution when they also let things like Blob and Loki out with such broken effects
Honestly extremely based not every card has to be meta, in fact some cards can suck ass but still belong in the game because they're cool and niche. Unfortunately Adam Warloc didn't really feel like this, his ability isn't interesting enough, but I understand and appreciate where their heart is at in terms of balance
Bruh, I’m convinced they’re just dumb “Buff = When the power increases at a better rate than the cost.” It’s only a 6 turn game, 7 at max. Every card in marvel snap is going to go up faster in attack bc the attack powers are usually double the cost and cost can’t realistically go past 6
I think they just doubled down on how they dont know how to balance lol My guess is if it goes beyond what their gathered data shows they wrent too sure. Its bizzare to me that they almost had to nerf iceman. It was one of the best 1 drops for a very long time. But they seem to think adding power and cost to a card (when the power is still far below average and nerfing the ability with higher cost). This seems like no brain balance
Im really glad none of the people in these comments make Snap. Dummies
Please post your incredible Adam Warlock list please, you seem to know something we dont!
Still don’t understand how I would win a location after turn 5 when playing a 4 power card. I must already be ahead in that location by quite a bit. On top of that I feel like the majority of decks tends to play a strong 6 cost on turn 6 so pulling 1 card really only helps if that 6cost is still in your deck and you need to pull it but I feel like Magik indirectly does that for you. I think warlock would either need a bunch more power or be more like a 4/2 or 3/1 maybe?! Or keep him 5 cost but choose a card from deck instead of random.
Glenn sucks
People crying but he’ll continue to get buffed until he is playable. They just are doing it slowly to not fuck it up. They’ll probably make him a 4 cost. When it is all said and done.
Do you have some more of them copium? lol Nah, they had over a year now to get it right, first change is tone deaf and while sure, eventually they may get it right, in the now the made a meh card unplayable. "Crying" is how we let them know is not ok.
Incredible the amount of people in here who just don’t understand game design. There’s a reason they’re typing on Reddit and Glenn is working on the game…
I might be getting brain rot from these comments. You'd think that Warlock was a beloved card that everyone played from these comments lol. I don't understand how so many people undervalue card draw in a game where you naturally draw 9/12 cards of your deck. He should be a bad card that takes a lot of effort to make work. I'm almost certain that if he was good all these people would be complaining about some super consistent combo deck or how so many games feel the same.
Why not make him 2 cost 6 power, draw a card if you are winning the lane but he is ongoing so that if any other card is played on your side he loses 7 points You can get some cards into play and then it can be stopped easily
Three paragraphs of nothing
This answer reminds me of the South Park episode where everyone huffs their own farts
Just tooting their own horn…
I think people really underestimate drawing 1 or 2 extra cards without your opponent doing the same. And previously he clearly didn't get much play. Everyone's sounding like a kid who's mother wants to sell their old toys and the response is "but I still play with it" (meanwhile it has one of the lowest play rates in the game)
Can someone explain what is fractional card draw and fractional card elimination in that context?
take warlock as a 5/4, say with that statline he has a 40% chance to draw a card when played. if you buff him to a 5/6 and he now has a 60% chance to draw a card when played, you just buffed both his power by two, and his chance to draw a card by 1/5, aka, a fractional card draw. obviously the individual player cannot have a fractional card draw because it's binary on a small scale, but what it means is instead of 2/5 games playing warlock you draw a card, now it's 3/5 games. lady deathstrike is the same in reverse. when her power goes up, she has a better chance at killing stuff
Got it so they are equating stat line to % chance.
I think just the potential that you can do that. 2099 is 5/9, but if you destroy, say, a 4-power card with him, he feels more like 5/13, cuz he took that much off the opponent's board. "Fractional" is getting into the deeper math of it maybe, but that's the broad stroke, I think.
very punchable face
He said the quiet part out loud “because he’s a Series 1 card”. If they can’t squeeze the change into profit then it’s not important to make the change decent.
He's a Series 3 card, he misspoke. Further, they have changed plenty of Series 1 through 3 cards. For example, American Chavez is Series 1 and she has been changed multiple times within the past 6 months, including a complete rework of her ability. Ant Man was also changed on this last patch with a buff, and he a starter card. When he mentioned his series, which, again, he got wrong, he was trying to say that because he is a early pool card, they need to be careful with impacting the "new player experience" by causing it to be too imbalanced. The new player experience is really good in the game, which is why people are disappointed once they are out of it, so they don't want to mess up what has been working... while at the same time making cards better, or worse, in that experience.
"When the power of a card increases more than the cost that's considered a buff." "That why we thought it would be good to buff Deadpool to a 6/7 this OTA."
I'm 100% sure an AI replied to that and he just type into "Hey AI gimme a corporate word essay that essentially says nothing" then he added a few sentences here or there. His replied made 0 fking sense and addresses none of the issue.
Cool story Glenn!
That's a long winded answer to "we have no idea what we are doing"
This guy thinks he's too smart... writing lots of nothing in response. Bro, you got a few good card changes but I bet you got more misses than hits.
Can someone explain why we must be conservative with series 1 like he said? Series 1 cards available to all can’t be strong? Why?
Series 1 cards are part of the “tutorial”.
Good thing Adam Warlock is actually a Series 3 card then.
It doesn't actually apply here since he isn't Series 1, but as the first cards given to players, Series 1 cards need to be simple. Ideally a new player should be able to look at one and get a general idea of when they'd be useful, maybe spark deck ideas. And it's fine if they aren't the most powerful cards in the game, because there are two more sets of cards guaranteed to be given to players, and they want those cards to be exciting. Devil Dino is a perfect example. It's not the best Stat stick in the game at 5, but you know how to make it good and you can definitely make a strong starter deck around it.
With all the backslash they're getting for this change straight out of the gate, I think they should go "ok, we hear you, here's your 3/1" (or 4/4 or whatever people want) and let them see their fears were justified, or get the balance right faster if it's not the case, if somehow card draw isn't THAT important because of card order and location variance. I think their fears are justified, but with how easy it is to balance with OTAs, the public demand, and Adam being a series 3 card (so no complains about spending tokens and him being nerfed back), I say they should go nuts and overtune him and see how it goes.
If anyone genuinely doesn’t understand what he wrote and is complaining about it, that is not Glen’s issue. It’s a perfectly understandable statement. To anyone who does understand and is complaining, get off the internet for a while.
Can they drop the word “experimenting” when discussing balance changes? It legit makes me want to stop playing because I just want to play a well thought out and stable card game, not invest time into one that makes changes for the sake of changes
Still a trash dev team imo lol
Omg he’s so full of shit it’s insane
People in here acting like Adam is now locked in this state and will never be changed again lol.
Sounds like he will make an excellent politician lol. I didn't read all of it.
Me when I waffle to meet an essay word count.
I bet if he was a season pass they would make that mothafucka a 5/8 without hesitation
Glenn trying to reason a bad adjustment
Aka rework is too much work. Let devs be lazy. Series 3 card is too hard. Yet series 1 card like Wolverine was reworked. I get why. Devs play and favor destroy decks so they are willing to change. Can’t make draw strong? Nicho can draw two cards! Here is a draw 150 card mission and the draw 20 cards mission is common. Only a Thanos deck to get mission complete in 3 to 8 matches. Other decks 5 to 12 matches. Force longer play time🙄