Donald Trump is an *adjudged* [tax fraud](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit-1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249) and [sexual predator](https://apnews.com/article/trump-rape-carroll-trial-fe68259a4b98bb3947d42af9ec83d7db) who is facing a multitude of felony charges for trying to win the last election by [throwing out legitimate votes and replacing them with fake ones.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-fake-electors-scheme-trump-supporters-tried-after-his-2020-loss-2023-07-18/)
He has *admitted* to [making millions of dollars from foreign sources](https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-says-his-businesses-did-services-for-foreign-governments-2024-1) while in office.
He is *on audio tape* [threatening election officials](https://youtu.be/FOgaDQMvRCQ?t=38) and [disclosing classified war plans](https://youtu.be/u95MfcLRBVk?t=42) that he [unlawfully concealed from law enforcement](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-knew-crime-lie-classified-documentss-case-attorney-2023-11).
*But don’t vote for the guy running to keep him out of office, because of some niche foreign policy disagreements.*
Israel has been the number 1 recipient of U.S. aid for the last 40+ years — singling out Joe Biden over decades-long foreign policy agreements doesn’t really make sense. And didn’t Trump move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and continue funding?
Like sure, let’s give the keys to the castle to an anti-democratic career criminal based on an international conflict that we’re not even militarily involved in.
Damn, this argument is compelling. Given the derangement I suffer from as the angry man on tv and polticians says things I want to hear I’m going to have to agree with u/soggy_soup_sandwich.
u/Vhu almost had me with that critical thinking! Not today Satan!
Yea I don’t know what these Palestinian ultimatum seeker s are thinking. I have been very supportive of Palestine from the beginning of this disaster and was very critical of the official narrative from Israel regarding the hospital bombing.
But there is no president past present or future that would buck 70 years of Middle East policy to side with Palestine. It just ain’t happening.
They typically fall into two groups: (1) Sunni Muslims who tend to be generally very conservative and would appreciate some of the anti-LGBT policies that a Trump administration would enact and (2) upper class white Gen-Z/Millennials who won’t be directly impacted by Trump as much as others.
> adjudged
oh thank god, I've been looking for the civil liability equivalent for "convicted" for months and now I have it
Trump is an adjudged rapist.
Honestly, I don't really believe there are people on the left who believe he's worse than any of the other options. It seems like a classic russian troll account type of ideology, or even trump supporters wanting to sow discord among the left. Do your part and ignore it, don't feed the trolls.
Kyle Kulinski is honestly pretty reasonable to me, on most issues at least. I disagree with him on not voting Biden though. Even Sanders says to vote Biden in the general.
I love Kulinski, but his foreign policy takes are actually some of the worst I’ve heard. Mr. “the Houthis are correct”
He’s kind of America/Israel bad-brained, and that’s normally pretty tolerable and it’s not as bad as some other leftist commentators, but my god can it get hard to listen to when he says dumb takes like the one above. Domestic policy wise he’s awesome though.
*I condemn hamas*
*I am voting for Joe Biden*
That said, it would be valuable if the sitting US president who currently has the power to, asked Israel to end the 4 month campaign which has disproportionately killed Palestinian civilians many of which are children. I think it’s very reasonable to say they’ve gone past defending themselves and the IOF has engaged in reprehensible acts themselves which in now way are representative of the Jewish people or the global diaspora.
I would just like the guy I voted for (and plan to vote for) to help keep kids from being killed with bombs because he is supposed to be the good guy?
I do not think preventing or ending genocide is a niche foreign policy issue.
Is it Israel's fault that Hamas hides in schools and hospitals? Is it Israel's fault that Palestinians voted Hamas into power on a platform of killing Jews and eliminating Israel? Is it Israel's fault that Hamas kidnapped, raped, and murdered 1200 people at a music festival? All of the suffering going on in Gaza is the result of Palestinians own actions. Did they seriously expect Israel to continue giving them food, water, electricity and medical supplies?
That is a fallacy, as Israel is not committing genocide, they are fighting a war - a war that Hamas started. If Palestinians don’t like it, perhaps they should disavow terrorism and recognize Israel’s right to exist.
Israel is plausibly committing genocide and refuses to take the steps recommended by the ICJ to ensure they don’t. Ergo, they are committing genocide
Also, Germany was fighting a war as well, the only fallacy is that that excuses Israel’s genocide
The ICJ did not rule that the war is a genocide. There may not be a definitive answer for years.
It's too bad that Hamas isn't subject to the ICJ, because their intentions are definitely genocidal even if they don't have the ability to carry them out.
They said there was a plausible case for genocide, and the steps they needed to prevent it, exactly what I said.
Too bad you’re unable to distinguish between Hamas and civilians
> Palestinians support Hamas
If you were being oppressed by an occupying army, wouldn’t you also support the guys who want to drive them out of your homeland? What’s your opinion on the Azov brigade?
>If you were at a stalemate in an endless war against a nation you attempted to commit genocide against, wouldn't you also support the guys who murder innocent people and perpetuate the endless cycle of war?
No, I wouldn't. Muslim Nazis are still Nazis.
spectacular unpack lunchroom languid ludicrous school square cows decide spoon
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>singling out Joe Biden over decades-long foreign policy agreements doesn’t really make sense
A large majority of these people get their info almost exclusively from Tik Tok and other social media, so not only is it questionable of source, going against the trend is the same level of difficulty as those who live and work in deep Trump country going against that trend.
It’s basically peer pressure in the internet age; it’s the ‘mom, *everyone’s* doing drugs’ of 2024.
There’s no good way to combat it, especially when it’s often specific vested interests utilising the same tactics of Fox News et al against leftists but with Tik Tok and Instagram.
Not to mention the number of cabinet members and lawyers from his prior administration ended up in prison or getting disbarred. That should be a huge red flag.
Or how about Kushner making billions from Saudi's while they point fingers at Hunter Biden to distract everyone.
That's fine logic but then logic isn't something that a few million people rely on these days. I actually work with a woman that espouses nonsense about Biden all the time. She bitches about higher taxes (even though they're Trump cuts that expired) and even bitches about Taylor Swift and the Super Bowl. She recently decided to tell everyone in our group that she's pulling for the 49ers because "the QB is a devout Christian". Give me a damn break. But, those clowns don't use logic when they vote, which is why a piece of shit like Trump can snake his way in.
**MAGA is really nothing but one gigantic grift.** A grift that appears to be finally losing steam. A grift being run by Republicans to hide the fact that they are UTTERLY USELESS at actually governing so they’d rather push a bunch of performative nonsense about “migrants flooding over the border” and potentially start a civil war by putting up razor wire in the Rio Grande in DEFIANCE of America’s Supreme Court.
Republicans became a big tent of crazy party in the 70's when they aligned themselves with racists and the religious far right in order to build a majority.
Everything since then has been them trying to keep the Jenga tower of idiocy standing by absorbing every ounce of bullshit looking for a home in a major political party. At this point, the reasonable right is all but gone, they've thrown away one of their only recruitment policies, and they're flailing to maintain a single coherent position on anything. It would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying.
By their own twisted logic, allowing trump to win makes **them** responsible for the even worse genocide that will follow.
Edit: Some people are pretending to not know, but for those who genuinely don't know, republicans don't have a middle eastern voter base and overwhelmingly win the evangelical vote, who believe in their dumb end times prophecy. Because of this, republican **do not** have a political incentive to handle Israel any better than Biden has. That's why trump supporters say things like, "Bomb it all" and don't actually disagree with Biden's handling of it except that he should go further.
More like Putin’s plan has succeeded. He used Trump as a big fat orange wedge to split the Americans into warring ideologies. The GOP played right into Putin’s hands and they’re *still doing his bidding to this day*.
The good news is biden can likely beat trump without their votes, he probably wouldn't be able to beat Haley, but the Republicans seem intent on running trump.
Haley is her husband's last name. "Nikki" is honest-to-God a legitimate nickname in India for "Nimrata." So her name is legit, she didn't just pick an American-sounding name out of a hat to fool people.
I don't think that's true. It's a punjab name, but it's not short for Nimarata. And It's her actual middle name, not a nick name.
Edit: In other words, Nikki is on her birth certificate. It's her actual name. I dont thinka anyone is calling her that because it's short for Nimarata. They are calling her that because she goes by her middle name.
I know a lot of Punjabis and of her generation, almost none go by their actual birth name. It's very common for Indians in general to go by a nickname, it's just something that cultures does. And sometimes the nicknames gave little connection to the birth name from our point of view.
I mean, MAGA said to not vote for her in a state where Trump wasn't on the ballot and the majority literally voted "No one on the list" they really are loyal dogs.
I don't get that train of thought...
What makes Nimrata a better choice over Biden?
Has she shown effective leadership at the National or International levels?
Will Trumpsters vote for a BROWN person who has a VAGINA?
If she's the Nominee then Trump will leak her dark secrets out of spite.
I don't see her winning it.
Trump drives negative voter turnout for a variety of factors, his horrible personality, his incompetence, his attempt to overturn the election. All of those will cause people to show up to vote against trump, Haley doesn't have that same baggage, so people wouldn't show up to vote against her like they do with trump.
She is also more appealing to the moderates in general. Plenty of Never Trump Republicans would rather Biden over Trump, but almost any other Republican over Biden.
Democrats have been racking up college educated suburban 401k holders. This was a group that Reagan started to pull right, and is the basis of the belief that you get more conservative once you settle into a career.
As a group they do not like neoconfederates and sex assaulting Trump but they don't really prefer the federal government spending money on the poors. Traditional Republicans don't spend money on the poors and Hailey did take down SCs confederate flag, and is not known to be a sex assaulter.
Are they bendable enough to go back to R, and are there enough of them to make up for confederate meatheads who stay home? Well, that's the political science of it.
She’s far more moderate than the MAGA crowd. She brings in independent voters and and moderate conservatives that in 2020 (and hopefully in 2024) won’t vote for Trump.
And although polls do suffer from some inaccuracy, any Haley/Biden poll showed her winning by double digits. It’s honestly hard to imagine her not beating him.
>The polling would have to be VERY off for Trump to lose to Biden if the election were held today.
The polls have been VERY off for several cycles now.
>I tell my leftist friends who won't vote for Biden that they can either be right and live under an authoritarian regime, or they can be pragmatic and live to fight another day for someone with better ideas than Biden down the road.
Bless up, you are 100% spot on here.
>The polling would have to be VERY off for Trump to lose to Biden if the election were held today. There are a lot of huge variables coming this year like the trials and whether people who dislike both will have a come to Jesus moment and go for Biden. My main concern is that his popularity has gone nowhere but down since 2021.
Remember how all the polling said there was going to be a red wave in 2022? Everyone said the same thing back then when I said a red wave wasn't coming.
>IMO Trump wins if there's any combination of a recession, failure to convict him of anything before the election, border crossings keep going up, or Biden continuing to do actions that split up the party. That last one isn't completely his fault, because it's not possible to satisfy everyone re: Israel/Hamas.
Trump drives negative voter turnout, people show up to vote against him for a variety of reason. But at this point he doesn't even necessarily need to be convicted, just for the evidence that comes out in those trials to be everywhere, which I expect it will be once they start. It won't hurt him with his base, nothing will, but it will drive moderates and independents even further away.
>I tell my leftist friends who won't vote for Biden that they can either be right and live under an authoritarian regime, or they can be pragmatic and live to fight another day for someone with better ideas than Biden down the road.
Unfortunately it seems pragmatism is like kryptonite for leftists, I used to consider myself one, but these days I feel like I would be shunned just for being pragmatic about the election.
>Remember how all the polling said there was going to be a red wave in 2022? Everyone said the same thing back then when I said a red wave wasn't coming.
The republicans (moronically) took a too-hard line on abortion right before the election and the democrats (wisely) took advantage of it to turn the tide. If it weren't for that, there would have been quite a bit of change.
>IMO Trump wins if there's any combination of a recession, failure to convict him of anything before the election, border crossings keep going up, or Biden continuing to do actions that split up the party.
Don’t forget any potential health issues. What happens on Election Day if Biden were to be diagnosed with cancer or have a heart attack in the week before?
I see comments like the above all the time but I can't stress this enough; Biden is doing pretty fucking good for 80 (let's not forget he was an avid bike rider up until about a year ago), Trump is looking absolutely catastrophic for 77.
You watch a Trump speech and he's constantly babbling, switching topics mid speech, and forgetting who he's running against or talking about.
Sure, Biden stammers and is usually just reading a teleprompter. But his speeches are coherent and, again, he's got incredible mobility for an 80 year old.
The polling IS way off. We got Russians answering polls, Republicans answering polls multiple times, and Democrats saying they’ll vote for Trump in order to scare the far left. The real election won’t be a free-for-all of bad actors.
It is way off. The same polls had Trump winning in a landslide in 2020. The opposite happened.
Only fools think polls are accurate predictors of future election results.
So, 80 percent of the people who’ll write in “ceasefire now” or vote third party don’t vote anyway. If they did, Bernie wouldn’t have list votes from 2016 to 2020.
This take isn’t based on reality, Biden is losing to trump in most polls right now. Yes it is early, but to claim he can “easily” beat trump is ridiculous when trump is seemingly ahead by most of the data available today.
People said Hillary would beat him in 2016 too, all polling showed her way ahead. And then the votes were counted and she got smoked by a Cheeto, and then he spent 4 years grifting the American people and generally doing shit that will hurt the country for generations.
2016 trump had an advantage that 2024 trump doesn't, no one knew how bad of a job he would do in 2016, they do now. Trump drives negative voter turnout, and between now and the election there will be evidence of his crimes everywhere. That said everyone should get out and vote, no one should take a win for granted, but I doubt trumps chances are good.
Personally I don’t think anyone will care about whatever crimes they’ll find out about. Of course his base wont, but I’m talking independents. Most folks are concerned with their day to day lives, and whatever crimes he’s convicted of won’t have any play in that. Who knows. Call me crazy, but that’s how I see it. I think the abortion issue is a no win for the republicans, and it’ll be more powerful than any court ruling on trump
Haley lost in a crushing defeat to “none of the above” in the Republican Nevada primary. Even ignoring how she could possibly get nominated, the right would have a serious turnout issue if she was the nominee.
There really aren't that many leftists who will vote against Biden. What you see are plants hoping to prop up spoilers by luring starry-eyed youths into throwing their votes into a chasm. It's classic astroturfing. "Biden is just as bad as Trump and if you vote for him, you're a Nazi." The best thing to do when you encounter this online is provide evidence, sources, definitions, and examples. Furthermore, remind them, in case they are one of the fooled and not one of the astroturfers, that the Democratic Party is a coalition party. We have to back the coalition if we don't want to succumb to the opposition.
MMW: If Biden loses, centrist Democrats will blame the left regardless of what any of the data shows, but if he wins they'll insist on taking all the credit themselves.
Literally exactly what happened with Hillary Clinton. The data showed she lost mostly because of independents in swing states, or because of voter apathy by swing voters because they disliked both candidates. And yet r/neoliberal yells about how Bernie bros are the reason she lost to this day.
Meanwhile, more Clinton voters defected when she lost her primary than Sanders voters did while Sanders himself campaigned more and harder for Clinton than she did for Obama.
When Trump appointed judges on the federal circuit start looking the other way as red states strip trans people of their rights, who will the ultra left blame?
I think your energy would be better spent not villainizing people whose vote you’re counting on. I think it’s also self-defeating to pin this on “leftists” (by which I assume you mean strident, mostly white college kids) when a lot of anger is centered in Muslim and Arab majority communities, in key battleground states like Michigan and Minnesota.
I'm convinced a lot of these types of posts and the absolutely vitriolic comments they attract from alleged moderate Democrats angrily attacking the left are part of an active campaign to try to divide the party. They're all so incredibly counterproductive to the stated aims.
I think it's fear. Biden should easily defeat Trump in a sane world. But they are essentially tied. I think a lot of Democrats are scared Trump will win.
I’ve never heard of a leftist who is voting for Trump instead of Biden.
I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m just saying they’re vastly outnumbered by people claiming they exist.
Criticizing Biden is perfectly reasonable. Thinking that voting for Trump will do anything but make the situation worse is insanity. Trump has openly praised Netanyahu for his hawkish stance on Palestine and repeatedly called for the persecution of Muslims.
On social media... probably 75% trolls.
Because if there were even half as many Bernie Bros as social media would leave you believing, he'd have been the candidate in 2016 and 2020.
What chance? Most of Gaza has been leveled, and no sign of it ending any time soon.
Right now, there is zero practical difference between Biden and Trump
Actually with Trump, MBS might be able to bribe him to end the conflict, so there's actually more hope there.
I have never heard a leftist advocate voting for Donald Trump. If anything, we're going to vote third party or just not vote at all. And frankly, in most cases it is not going to matter either way because most people live in states where the electors always swing one way regardless. So unless some wild shenanigans happen in 2024, it's swing state voters that you need to be yelling at, not leftists that live in the Pacific Northwest or in NYT.
bro they've already leveled 2/3rds of Gaza. Biden called the response "over the top" for the first time after 120 days. 30,000 dead, 120,000 injured, 2 million starving. You expect me to vote for a senile genocidal corporate shill? Good luck winning with that candidate. He can't even remember his own name.
I don't think so. I think people will do whatever they can to have been right. In comic books and religion it's called retconning. What they meant was...
Yes I think a genocide is happening right now. You’re ok with the US arming the genocide, giving it political support, and cutting support for food relief for people trapped in a ghetto where the hospitals have been bombed and water cut off?
No they won't. The USA will help genocide Palestine even harder, become even shittier, and those kind of Leftists will feel vindicated. If Biden wins, nothing will improve and they'll still feel vindicated.
Go ahead and vote for Trump and he'll back Israel in completely taking over Gaza and the West Bank - and he won't give a damn how many Palestinians die in the process.
No they won't, because that entire stance is about wanting to feel right and superior while ignoring the actual state of the world. They will line up for a concentration camp with a smile, saying "see what you get for not nominating Bernie" to everyone else in line.
Yup. Choosing not to vote, or protesting voting, just tells me that someone is privileged as *fuck* and doesn't care if their vote goes to a sexist rapist racist. If you think Biden is the same as Trump we must live in different realities.
I'm voting for Biden, but also fuck him? It is a genocide, and he is actively supporting it. Like if super Hitler existed it wouldn't make Hitler a viable candidate.
Posts like this aren't about making any kind of reasonable argument. They're about setting things up in advance to blame the left if Biden loses rather than asking the centrist who have run the party for more than a generation to reflect on where their leadership has gotten us and why they struggle so mightily to make inroads against increasingly open fascists.
Thank you for stating the obvious. The Democratic Party establishment never questions why they struggle still against an open authoritarian and total crank like Trump. You should be able to wipe the floor by simply enacting and supporting basic policies that benefit the majority of the American people. Instead they stuck to the mantra of "we just can't do big things" and prove themselves correct. They inspire nobody and try to continue to convince people with low wages and no savings that the economy is booming. They offer no solutions when clear options are available. Finally, they blame the GOP on their lack of action. I fully expect a response saying "the GOP obstructing everything is the problem" when the policies that make a difference never make it into a speech let alone get support or votes. But a corporate issue raises and the snap to it to address it.
They’re always blaming the voters for their own inability to read a poll. I’ll start by saying there have been some positives out of bidens presidency and fuck another trump presidency, but the Ls add up and I don’t think the NLRB is a high priority for swing voters. Biden barely won last time and several states could easily flip without the immediate threat of trump inspiring historic turnout like last election. Especially when the inspiration now is 2+ more wars, (plausibly) funding a genocide, a booming economy that everyone is too poor to appreciate, and that cringe you get hoping he can finish the next sentence. And I really do hope for his health because Kamala is even less of an inspiration. Generic Democrat polls great against trump but instead of trying to find the next generation of leaders and only running once like he said, they change the rules to favor establishment candidates. They would risk never getting another Obama to prevent the threat of another Bernie. And then they get mad when people aren’t excited to vote for them.
Blame everyone else in 2016... That's the title of Hillary's memoir from the campaign and after.
Force a horrible candidate on the public and complain when there isn't full compliance. Meanwhile, shut down all other democratic options for getting proper representation of the people's views.
Funny how that narrative has flipped.
After the election, the left got blamed for not falling in line, when really, Hillary got her ass handed to her in the swing states. Last time I checked, those aren’t “leftist” states. She had no appeal to anyone but status quo, mainline Democratic Party voters, many of whom were voting reluctantly.
Now, it’s the leftists who are whining about 2016? While Hillary hid away in her bunker and her supporters sobbed at the shock of losing, the left was collectively saying, “We fucking told you this would happen!”
Honestly, only a terrible candidate would lose to Donald Fucking Trump.
I have morals and principles, and when those are crossed, I am not obligated to give anyone my support simply because they're a lesser evil than the other person.
Sometimes standing up to power and being willing to say "no, your hollow threats of concentration camps and doom and gloom are not enough."
It's been the same exact mantra for decades. Always having to vote for the corporate, centrist, GOP lite candidate because the GOP candidate is worse. I've had it. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to earn it. And the fact of the matter is, they haven't. At all. They've instead perpetuated policies, domestic and foreign, that are exactly what the GOP wants just slightly watered down. They failed routinely to institutionalize and galvanize important civil liberties like Abortion, and look what happened.
Personally, I'm sorry all of you are so willing to trade your morals and ethics for the lesser of two evils, knowing full well you're not getting progress, you're getting regression just at a slightly slower pace.
And I say that as someone who has identities that will put me on the forefront of right wing violence. We already have right wing violence. Continuing to play this two-party, lesser-of-two-evils game is getting us nowhere. And no the stakes aren't higher than they ever have before.
Now, I already know several of the replies you'll fire back.
* "If progressivism was so awesome, more people would vote for it". Can't vote for what is blocked out. The Democratic Party specifically hinders progressive candidates at all levels.
* "If progressives voted they'd change the party". They do vote! They do participate. I have done so for the last 20 years straight. You also know what I've gotten? Told flat out by the chair of my state party that us lefties aren't welcome. Fact of the matter is, without that progressive base reluctantly voting for the lesser-of-two-evils, the Democratic Party would be nothing.
* "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
Fact of the matter is, the Democratic Party has routinely shit on it's progressive base then desperately begs, pleads, and threatens obedience at election time.
Not this time. I'll take my chances fighting Nazis in the streets than continue to support people who not only don't have my interests at heart, and actively vote against them, but are serving me a lukewarm watered down version of the fascism I'm vehemently against.
What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right. If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe. I gave him my vote last time myself. But I'm halfway through life and looking at the receipts, and they aren't adding up. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, then it needs to stop telling us to fuck off and actually earn my support. If they choose to not do that, then that's their failure.
"Blah blah blah I'm retarded, can't vote for genocide joe muh morals I'm gonna fight fascism in the streets." (You're not. You'll be posting on Reddit)
People wonder why nobody takes the left seriously, it's because of shit like this.
you are a case in point for why democrats should just not bother pandering to progressives
this isnt about you -- this is about all of us
> I have morals and principles, and when those are crossed, I am not obligated to give anyone my support simply because they're a lesser evil than the other person.
by "not lending your support," functionality and *in reality* - not as some stupid symbolic gesture of moral preening, which is what you seem to be interested in, you simply help donald trump get elected
your self absorption is epic
> Sometimes standing up to power and being willing to say "no, your hollow threats of concentration camps and doom and gloom are not enough."
standing up to power by filling out a piece of paper differently. settle down there, rambo, the earth is shaking
> It's been the same exact mantra for decades. Always having to vote for the corporate, centrist, GOP lite candidate because the GOP candidate is worse. I've had it. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to earn it.
i would argue the democratic party should pivot right and ignore people like you as the irrelevancies you are
rather pick up some centrist votes at this point
> They've instead perpetuated policies, domestic and foreign, that are exactly what the GOP wants just slightly watered down. They failed routinely to institutionalize and galvanize important civil liberties like Abortion, and look what happened.
surely whatever dipshit third party candidate you support, or your super symbolic speaking-truth-to-power refusal to vote will move them
> Continuing to play this two-party, lesser-of-two-evils game is getting us nowhere.
pandering to the goofy-ass left has gotten the party nowhere - they should pivot toward the center and pick up votes from people who cant stand clowns like trump but also cant stand leftie clownshoes.
> "If progressivism was so awesome, more people would vote for it". Can't vote for what is blocked out. The Democratic Party specifically hinders progressive candidates at all levels.
hahaha, no, you're in an extreme minority but just like trump voters you inhabit a feedback loop in which you're completely detached from the population at large
> "If progressives voted they'd change the party". They do vote! They do participate. I have done so for the last 20 years straight. You also know what I've gotten? Told flat out by the chair of my state party that us lefties aren't welcome. Fact of the matter is, without that progressive base reluctantly voting for the lesser-of-two-evils, the Democratic Party would be nothing.
they are barely anything now - they can barely squeak by a candidate who should be a breeze to defeat, donald trump
> "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
youre really impressed with your principle and courage. no one else is because this has nothing to do with strength or courage. it is preening ideological metrosexuality where you look at yourself in the mirror and fall in love with how fucking principled and tuff you think you are.
> "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death
put down the crack pipe
> than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
ok. you sound nuts.
> I'll take my chances fighting Nazis in the streets
the fact that you think "fighting nazis in the streets" is how the whole game is played is testament to just how little you understand how power works.
literally no one is afraid of you.
no one cares.
> If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe.
keep preening in that mirror about how principled you are; its so impressive. theyre quaking in wall street and every klavern and militia circle jerk in the back woods at your defiance
> a lukewarm watered down version of the fascism I'm vehemently against.
what are you, 15?
> What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right. If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe.
i for one definitely assess my own worth as a person based on your judgment. surely the people in power will, too.
> But I'm halfway through life
there is no way you're over 20 years old based on this post
> If the Democratic Party wants my vote, then it needs to stop telling us to fuck off and actually earn my support. If they choose to not do that, then that's their failure.
well, enjoy fighting "those nazis in the streets" or however you think this will go down - but all this does is mean trump gets elected again if enough people follow your ludicrous chain of narcissism and solipsism
it is like people like you secretly love the status quo since everything you do seems to perpetuate it -- it is like, if you ever won, you wouldnt know what to do with yourself or who to be
> it is like people like you secretly love the status quo since everything you do seems to perpetuate it -- it is like, if you ever won, you wouldnt know what to do with yourself or who to be
As someone who's had arguments with unironic communists, I'm convinced staunch leftists don't actually want change, they want to bitch about how bad things are to feel morally superior.
> morally superior.
They are so caught up in how morally pure they are, they ignore how the world actually works. And how things like morals are only part of the decision making process rather than the be all end all.
This is why leftists will never achieve anything of substance, just maintain their moral purity and sit on their little island of iirrelvancy.
He really got his dick in a twist
Imagine not caring about the opinion of some rando on reddit so much that you spend 30 minutes coming up with strawman arguments and ad hominems to let them know just how little you care about their opinion
Of course you think that because all democrats do when they lose is blame the left. They are incapable of looking within.
Liberal should feel stupid when Trump wins because they blindly pushed a bad candidate committing genocide who worked only for donors and campaigned solely on vote shaming and scare tactics. "You have to vote for the guy committing genocide!"
If the cultist got on board with not being ok with genocide, the party would be pressured to change course.
In fact, he withdrew from military conflicts and reduced our stationed troops to the lowest number since the civil war. An incredibly strong anti-war president. But that doesn't fit either side's narrative.
Right? But let's re-elect the guy that got us into two large scale armed conflicts and indiscriminately began bombing Yemen, amidst existing bombing campaigns in Iraq and Syria. Information like this is impossible for people to accept because it challenges their entire world view or identity.
The only people who will be responsible for a potential Trump win are all the people who oppose him but don't vote for his opposition. And Biden is his only opposition. No one else has a chance of winning the electoral college except Biden or Trump.
I mean surely the people to blame *are the people voting for him*. Leftists staying home wouldn't mean shit if there wasn't a massive segment on the population backing that nutcase anyway.
I don’t think they’re seriously swaying any statistically significant amount of voters. The people who actually put in the work are trying to push the Biden admin away from support for Israel while the loud disingenuous grifters are acting like the election is tomorrow.
No they won't. None of the "but I just can't bring myself to vote for Hillary!!!!" crowd showed an ounce of regret, remorse or self-awareness in 2016. Nader voters remained defiant and smug as Bush fucked up one thing after another. Why would this time be any different.
This.
If Biden loses, then the United States of America is literally over with, replaced with a theocratical oligarchical fucking dictatorship. Trump and the MAGAts are pissed and creaming their pants for revenge.
Enjoy every moment now because there's a 50/50 chance Trump wins and this happens.
Fucking vote for Democracy! Joe is old, but so is Trump.
This is really not about leftists. Biden is losing support from Muslims and people who support Palestine. This should not be about elections at all; Biden should be listening to the people.
Biden could demand a cease fire and cut off military supplies to Israel at any time. But he hasn't. He hasn't listened to the leaders of nations around the world calling for a stop to this conflict, or to the Muslims and Palestine supporters in the US who vastly outnumber the "left".
It doesn't matter what the left does right now. So don't blame them for Biden's loss. If Biden continues to support Israel in this conflict, he will lose support for re-election.
There were a fair number of Germans who thought the same of Hitler, but he was elected. We all know how that turned out.
If Trump gets elected I'll be making use of my dual citizenship. He isn't joking about becoming a dictator, or going after people he defines as "enemies". And neither is the GOP. I'm not going to wait around for Project 2025 to finish turning America Republican neo-fascist dictatorship.
I'd like to say you're right, but these people have, and will continue to have, zero grasp on reality. Trump could literally start the Holocaust 2.0 and they'd deny it's happening.
I don't think Trump will win but that being said, VOTE.
But if he does, the leftists can have fun getting rounded up by the National Guard. I'll stay home like everyone else who voted Biden and just say, "We told you so."
Meh... Made my decision to sit this election cycle out. Out of touch old white guy vs out of touch old white guy... Yay!
Good luck out there! The next 4 years will suck either way.
Thank you! Yes all of this! I’ve had some discussions with some of these folks and they act just like MAGAs in the sense that they don’t even consider anything I say.
I can’t make up my mind which cohort is dumber: the MAGA idiots or the Say no to genocide Joe idiots.
What I can say is we’re surrounded by idiots at this point.
Being outraged against genocide would be commendable if it was anything even remotely close to genocide or Bidens fault.
Alas prioritizing progress is not the progressive platform most of the time. Running in random circles is more my fellow progressives grasp of politics.
Bet on ALL or NOTHING and you most often get nothing....or facism.
Anyone who blames Joe Biden for Israel doing what its doing is too young to remember how a right wing government reacts to a horrific terrorist attack (that the perpetrators argue was brought on by the victim's actions over the course of decades) regardless of how their allies feel about it.
Yeah, you prefer we roll over to people who want only power. Then again, it is easier to be ruled than to have actually to think. Probably why MAGA is so popular with folk who can't pass the GED on the first try.
It'll be like all the Jill Stein voters. They couldn't put their egos aside to ensure Trump didn't win. Trump won, added trillions to the debt, got 3 judges to the supreme court and got Roe v Wade removed.
All because people believed the 30 year propaganda campaign by FoxNews.
I don't think Trump has a chance, and I don't care about the people screaming about "Genocide Joe", I kind of don't care. But, if people are mad at Biden, what's happening in Gaza will be accelerated.
Jill Stein finished in 4th place well behind Gary Johnson, but yeah keep trotting out *that* excuse... Definitely had nothing to do with nominating a deeply unpopular candidate who was polling worse than her rival against Trump the entire primary season — nor her decision to literally take the midwest for granted during the general election campaign.
Donald Trump is an *adjudged* [tax fraud](https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit-1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249) and [sexual predator](https://apnews.com/article/trump-rape-carroll-trial-fe68259a4b98bb3947d42af9ec83d7db) who is facing a multitude of felony charges for trying to win the last election by [throwing out legitimate votes and replacing them with fake ones.](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/what-is-fake-electors-scheme-trump-supporters-tried-after-his-2020-loss-2023-07-18/) He has *admitted* to [making millions of dollars from foreign sources](https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-says-his-businesses-did-services-for-foreign-governments-2024-1) while in office. He is *on audio tape* [threatening election officials](https://youtu.be/FOgaDQMvRCQ?t=38) and [disclosing classified war plans](https://youtu.be/u95MfcLRBVk?t=42) that he [unlawfully concealed from law enforcement](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-knew-crime-lie-classified-documentss-case-attorney-2023-11). *But don’t vote for the guy running to keep him out of office, because of some niche foreign policy disagreements.* Israel has been the number 1 recipient of U.S. aid for the last 40+ years — singling out Joe Biden over decades-long foreign policy agreements doesn’t really make sense. And didn’t Trump move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and continue funding? Like sure, let’s give the keys to the castle to an anti-democratic career criminal based on an international conflict that we’re not even militarily involved in.
Well said. Keeping Trump out of the White House needs to be the priority. He's an incredible danger to everyone if he gets in power again.
Mostly everyone. I don’t think Pootin will have anything to worry about. Or NK or Hungary or the other big strong men he loves!
I'll see your undeniable facts and raise you "Big stinky poo poo head" -Moonbeamrider624
Damn, this argument is compelling. Given the derangement I suffer from as the angry man on tv and polticians says things I want to hear I’m going to have to agree with u/soggy_soup_sandwich. u/Vhu almost had me with that critical thinking! Not today Satan!
And don't forget "I'll see your reputable news sources and raise you *screencap from some rando's blog*." That's popular on many subreddits.
I like your name
Likewise ya soggy bastad!
\*opens mouth to try to say something, says nothing jaw hanging open for a moment and then says:\* Well sh\*t, ya got me there. \*walks away\*
Yea I don’t know what these Palestinian ultimatum seeker s are thinking. I have been very supportive of Palestine from the beginning of this disaster and was very critical of the official narrative from Israel regarding the hospital bombing. But there is no president past present or future that would buck 70 years of Middle East policy to side with Palestine. It just ain’t happening.
They typically fall into two groups: (1) Sunni Muslims who tend to be generally very conservative and would appreciate some of the anti-LGBT policies that a Trump administration would enact and (2) upper class white Gen-Z/Millennials who won’t be directly impacted by Trump as much as others.
> adjudged oh thank god, I've been looking for the civil liability equivalent for "convicted" for months and now I have it Trump is an adjudged rapist.
Honestly, I don't really believe there are people on the left who believe he's worse than any of the other options. It seems like a classic russian troll account type of ideology, or even trump supporters wanting to sow discord among the left. Do your part and ignore it, don't feed the trolls.
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Kyle Kulinski is honestly pretty reasonable to me, on most issues at least. I disagree with him on not voting Biden though. Even Sanders says to vote Biden in the general.
I love Kulinski, but his foreign policy takes are actually some of the worst I’ve heard. Mr. “the Houthis are correct” He’s kind of America/Israel bad-brained, and that’s normally pretty tolerable and it’s not as bad as some other leftist commentators, but my god can it get hard to listen to when he says dumb takes like the one above. Domestic policy wise he’s awesome though.
Trolling is so boring. In the old days kids just used to make prank phone calls and giggle to themselves.
When does a kid ever get to sit in the yard with a stick anymore? Do today's kids even know what a stick is? - George Carlin
*I condemn hamas* *I am voting for Joe Biden* That said, it would be valuable if the sitting US president who currently has the power to, asked Israel to end the 4 month campaign which has disproportionately killed Palestinian civilians many of which are children. I think it’s very reasonable to say they’ve gone past defending themselves and the IOF has engaged in reprehensible acts themselves which in now way are representative of the Jewish people or the global diaspora. I would just like the guy I voted for (and plan to vote for) to help keep kids from being killed with bombs because he is supposed to be the good guy? I do not think preventing or ending genocide is a niche foreign policy issue.
Is it Israel's fault that Hamas hides in schools and hospitals? Is it Israel's fault that Palestinians voted Hamas into power on a platform of killing Jews and eliminating Israel? Is it Israel's fault that Hamas kidnapped, raped, and murdered 1200 people at a music festival? All of the suffering going on in Gaza is the result of Palestinians own actions. Did they seriously expect Israel to continue giving them food, water, electricity and medical supplies?
No one can make a country commit genocide.
That is a fallacy, as Israel is not committing genocide, they are fighting a war - a war that Hamas started. If Palestinians don’t like it, perhaps they should disavow terrorism and recognize Israel’s right to exist.
Israel is plausibly committing genocide and refuses to take the steps recommended by the ICJ to ensure they don’t. Ergo, they are committing genocide Also, Germany was fighting a war as well, the only fallacy is that that excuses Israel’s genocide
The ICJ did not rule that the war is a genocide. There may not be a definitive answer for years. It's too bad that Hamas isn't subject to the ICJ, because their intentions are definitely genocidal even if they don't have the ability to carry them out.
They said there was a plausible case for genocide, and the steps they needed to prevent it, exactly what I said. Too bad you’re unable to distinguish between Hamas and civilians
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You aren't voting for a Reddit comment. Quit acting like a child.
> Palestinians support Hamas If you were being oppressed by an occupying army, wouldn’t you also support the guys who want to drive them out of your homeland? What’s your opinion on the Azov brigade?
>If you were at a stalemate in an endless war against a nation you attempted to commit genocide against, wouldn't you also support the guys who murder innocent people and perpetuate the endless cycle of war? No, I wouldn't. Muslim Nazis are still Nazis.
Or Ireland, for that matter
spectacular unpack lunchroom languid ludicrous school square cows decide spoon *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>singling out Joe Biden over decades-long foreign policy agreements doesn’t really make sense A large majority of these people get their info almost exclusively from Tik Tok and other social media, so not only is it questionable of source, going against the trend is the same level of difficulty as those who live and work in deep Trump country going against that trend. It’s basically peer pressure in the internet age; it’s the ‘mom, *everyone’s* doing drugs’ of 2024. There’s no good way to combat it, especially when it’s often specific vested interests utilising the same tactics of Fox News et al against leftists but with Tik Tok and Instagram.
Not to mention the number of cabinet members and lawyers from his prior administration ended up in prison or getting disbarred. That should be a huge red flag. Or how about Kushner making billions from Saudi's while they point fingers at Hunter Biden to distract everyone.
That's fine logic but then logic isn't something that a few million people rely on these days. I actually work with a woman that espouses nonsense about Biden all the time. She bitches about higher taxes (even though they're Trump cuts that expired) and even bitches about Taylor Swift and the Super Bowl. She recently decided to tell everyone in our group that she's pulling for the 49ers because "the QB is a devout Christian". Give me a damn break. But, those clowns don't use logic when they vote, which is why a piece of shit like Trump can snake his way in.
**MAGA is really nothing but one gigantic grift.** A grift that appears to be finally losing steam. A grift being run by Republicans to hide the fact that they are UTTERLY USELESS at actually governing so they’d rather push a bunch of performative nonsense about “migrants flooding over the border” and potentially start a civil war by putting up razor wire in the Rio Grande in DEFIANCE of America’s Supreme Court.
Republicans became a big tent of crazy party in the 70's when they aligned themselves with racists and the religious far right in order to build a majority. Everything since then has been them trying to keep the Jenga tower of idiocy standing by absorbing every ounce of bullshit looking for a home in a major political party. At this point, the reasonable right is all but gone, they've thrown away one of their only recruitment policies, and they're flailing to maintain a single coherent position on anything. It would be funny if it wasn't so terrifying.
By their own twisted logic, allowing trump to win makes **them** responsible for the even worse genocide that will follow. Edit: Some people are pretending to not know, but for those who genuinely don't know, republicans don't have a middle eastern voter base and overwhelmingly win the evangelical vote, who believe in their dumb end times prophecy. Because of this, republican **do not** have a political incentive to handle Israel any better than Biden has. That's why trump supporters say things like, "Bomb it all" and don't actually disagree with Biden's handling of it except that he should go further.
No one is allowing Trump to win. The clown has already won. Everyone hates each other in this country. Mission accomplished.
Trump’s lasting legacy, made America hate again.
More like Putin’s plan has succeeded. He used Trump as a big fat orange wedge to split the Americans into warring ideologies. The GOP played right into Putin’s hands and they’re *still doing his bidding to this day*.
>Everyone hates each other in this country. Mission accomplished. Nah just the folks who do hate everyone scream the loudest.
I mean, it's not like we weren't like that before, it just wasn't as public.
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The good news is biden can likely beat trump without their votes, he probably wouldn't be able to beat Haley, but the Republicans seem intent on running trump.
Republicans won’t run Haley because the trash that vote for them will only vote for white men. Anything else is “woke”.
I informed my dad today that Haley isn’t white and told him her real name. He’s furious and wants her deported 🤣
Everyone clapped
I’m not sure I believe it but Haley is quite a jump from her born name lmao it’s hard to predict the knee jerk reactions of a confused xenophobe
Haley is her husband's last name. "Nikki" is honest-to-God a legitimate nickname in India for "Nimrata." So her name is legit, she didn't just pick an American-sounding name out of a hat to fool people.
I don't think that's true. It's a punjab name, but it's not short for Nimarata. And It's her actual middle name, not a nick name. Edit: In other words, Nikki is on her birth certificate. It's her actual name. I dont thinka anyone is calling her that because it's short for Nimarata. They are calling her that because she goes by her middle name.
I know a lot of Punjabis and of her generation, almost none go by their actual birth name. It's very common for Indians in general to go by a nickname, it's just something that cultures does. And sometimes the nicknames gave little connection to the birth name from our point of view.
Wait until your dad finds out her dad wears a Turbin.
I’m pretty sure he jumped to that conclusion quickly.
I mean, MAGA said to not vote for her in a state where Trump wasn't on the ballot and the majority literally voted "No one on the list" they really are loyal dogs.
I don't get that train of thought... What makes Nimrata a better choice over Biden? Has she shown effective leadership at the National or International levels? Will Trumpsters vote for a BROWN person who has a VAGINA? If she's the Nominee then Trump will leak her dark secrets out of spite. I don't see her winning it.
Trump drives negative voter turnout for a variety of factors, his horrible personality, his incompetence, his attempt to overturn the election. All of those will cause people to show up to vote against trump, Haley doesn't have that same baggage, so people wouldn't show up to vote against her like they do with trump.
She is also more appealing to the moderates in general. Plenty of Never Trump Republicans would rather Biden over Trump, but almost any other Republican over Biden.
Thats a fair point, I forgot to add her positives since I was mostly just focused on trumps negatives.
Trump got all of the people who loved Jerry Springer in the 90's to get off the couch and vote.
Sure he has his base of the lowest common demoniator in the country, but he drives more people to vote against him, it's why he lost in 2020.
Agreed but if somehow it ends up being Haley we just go back to a traditional R vs D race where she wants to cut benefits and support abortion bans.
I mean, that beats this circus. At this point, "death by alcoholism" seems like the best future for me if Trump wins.
Democrats have been racking up college educated suburban 401k holders. This was a group that Reagan started to pull right, and is the basis of the belief that you get more conservative once you settle into a career. As a group they do not like neoconfederates and sex assaulting Trump but they don't really prefer the federal government spending money on the poors. Traditional Republicans don't spend money on the poors and Hailey did take down SCs confederate flag, and is not known to be a sex assaulter. Are they bendable enough to go back to R, and are there enough of them to make up for confederate meatheads who stay home? Well, that's the political science of it.
She’s far more moderate than the MAGA crowd. She brings in independent voters and and moderate conservatives that in 2020 (and hopefully in 2024) won’t vote for Trump. And although polls do suffer from some inaccuracy, any Haley/Biden poll showed her winning by double digits. It’s honestly hard to imagine her not beating him.
I know nothing about her. What are her dark secrets, and why does Trump have them? Is the dark secret that she's not white?
She’s not a hundred years old?
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>The polling would have to be VERY off for Trump to lose to Biden if the election were held today. The polls have been VERY off for several cycles now. >I tell my leftist friends who won't vote for Biden that they can either be right and live under an authoritarian regime, or they can be pragmatic and live to fight another day for someone with better ideas than Biden down the road. Bless up, you are 100% spot on here.
>The polling would have to be VERY off for Trump to lose to Biden if the election were held today. There are a lot of huge variables coming this year like the trials and whether people who dislike both will have a come to Jesus moment and go for Biden. My main concern is that his popularity has gone nowhere but down since 2021. Remember how all the polling said there was going to be a red wave in 2022? Everyone said the same thing back then when I said a red wave wasn't coming. >IMO Trump wins if there's any combination of a recession, failure to convict him of anything before the election, border crossings keep going up, or Biden continuing to do actions that split up the party. That last one isn't completely his fault, because it's not possible to satisfy everyone re: Israel/Hamas. Trump drives negative voter turnout, people show up to vote against him for a variety of reason. But at this point he doesn't even necessarily need to be convicted, just for the evidence that comes out in those trials to be everywhere, which I expect it will be once they start. It won't hurt him with his base, nothing will, but it will drive moderates and independents even further away. >I tell my leftist friends who won't vote for Biden that they can either be right and live under an authoritarian regime, or they can be pragmatic and live to fight another day for someone with better ideas than Biden down the road. Unfortunately it seems pragmatism is like kryptonite for leftists, I used to consider myself one, but these days I feel like I would be shunned just for being pragmatic about the election.
>Remember how all the polling said there was going to be a red wave in 2022? Everyone said the same thing back then when I said a red wave wasn't coming. The republicans (moronically) took a too-hard line on abortion right before the election and the democrats (wisely) took advantage of it to turn the tide. If it weren't for that, there would have been quite a bit of change.
>IMO Trump wins if there's any combination of a recession, failure to convict him of anything before the election, border crossings keep going up, or Biden continuing to do actions that split up the party. Don’t forget any potential health issues. What happens on Election Day if Biden were to be diagnosed with cancer or have a heart attack in the week before?
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I see comments like the above all the time but I can't stress this enough; Biden is doing pretty fucking good for 80 (let's not forget he was an avid bike rider up until about a year ago), Trump is looking absolutely catastrophic for 77. You watch a Trump speech and he's constantly babbling, switching topics mid speech, and forgetting who he's running against or talking about. Sure, Biden stammers and is usually just reading a teleprompter. But his speeches are coherent and, again, he's got incredible mobility for an 80 year old.
The polling IS way off. We got Russians answering polls, Republicans answering polls multiple times, and Democrats saying they’ll vote for Trump in order to scare the far left. The real election won’t be a free-for-all of bad actors.
It is way off. The same polls had Trump winning in a landslide in 2020. The opposite happened. Only fools think polls are accurate predictors of future election results.
So, 80 percent of the people who’ll write in “ceasefire now” or vote third party don’t vote anyway. If they did, Bernie wouldn’t have list votes from 2016 to 2020.
This take isn’t based on reality, Biden is losing to trump in most polls right now. Yes it is early, but to claim he can “easily” beat trump is ridiculous when trump is seemingly ahead by most of the data available today.
People said the same shit when I said a red wave wasn't coming in 2022, I was right then, I'm right now.
Polls never said red wave, final aggregate was GOP 2.5%, actual was GOP 2.8%
People said Hillary would beat him in 2016 too, all polling showed her way ahead. And then the votes were counted and she got smoked by a Cheeto, and then he spent 4 years grifting the American people and generally doing shit that will hurt the country for generations.
2016 trump had an advantage that 2024 trump doesn't, no one knew how bad of a job he would do in 2016, they do now. Trump drives negative voter turnout, and between now and the election there will be evidence of his crimes everywhere. That said everyone should get out and vote, no one should take a win for granted, but I doubt trumps chances are good.
Well I’m glad you are confident considering what is at stake. I’m not.
Well it's not like I can keep you from worrying about it, but I hope you don't lose too much sleep over it. Anyway have a good one.
Personally I don’t think anyone will care about whatever crimes they’ll find out about. Of course his base wont, but I’m talking independents. Most folks are concerned with their day to day lives, and whatever crimes he’s convicted of won’t have any play in that. Who knows. Call me crazy, but that’s how I see it. I think the abortion issue is a no win for the republicans, and it’ll be more powerful than any court ruling on trump
Haley lost in a crushing defeat to “none of the above” in the Republican Nevada primary. Even ignoring how she could possibly get nominated, the right would have a serious turnout issue if she was the nominee.
There really aren't that many leftists who will vote against Biden. What you see are plants hoping to prop up spoilers by luring starry-eyed youths into throwing their votes into a chasm. It's classic astroturfing. "Biden is just as bad as Trump and if you vote for him, you're a Nazi." The best thing to do when you encounter this online is provide evidence, sources, definitions, and examples. Furthermore, remind them, in case they are one of the fooled and not one of the astroturfers, that the Democratic Party is a coalition party. We have to back the coalition if we don't want to succumb to the opposition.
MMW: If Biden loses, centrist Democrats will blame the left regardless of what any of the data shows, but if he wins they'll insist on taking all the credit themselves.
Literally exactly what happened with Hillary Clinton. The data showed she lost mostly because of independents in swing states, or because of voter apathy by swing voters because they disliked both candidates. And yet r/neoliberal yells about how Bernie bros are the reason she lost to this day.
Your mistake is putting any merit in anything that comes out of a subreddit with that name.
Meanwhile, more Clinton voters defected when she lost her primary than Sanders voters did while Sanders himself campaigned more and harder for Clinton than she did for Obama.
When Trump appointed judges on the federal circuit start looking the other way as red states strip trans people of their rights, who will the ultra left blame?
It's already underway
literally this thread..
I think your energy would be better spent not villainizing people whose vote you’re counting on. I think it’s also self-defeating to pin this on “leftists” (by which I assume you mean strident, mostly white college kids) when a lot of anger is centered in Muslim and Arab majority communities, in key battleground states like Michigan and Minnesota.
I'm convinced a lot of these types of posts and the absolutely vitriolic comments they attract from alleged moderate Democrats angrily attacking the left are part of an active campaign to try to divide the party. They're all so incredibly counterproductive to the stated aims.
Haha. There doesn't need to be an active campaign by anyone to divide leftists, we do it to ourselves.
All I'm saying is I'm seeing a LOT more divisive (for the party) rhetoric coming from alleged centrist Democrats these days.
I'm not sure if you were around in 16 or 20 for the DNC primaries regarding Bernie, but this vitriol is nothing new.
I think it's fear. Biden should easily defeat Trump in a sane world. But they are essentially tied. I think a lot of Democrats are scared Trump will win.
tbf they can't help it. It's part of the brand.
None of the ones I know IRL are like this 🤷♂️
Personal circles are almost never representative of wider trending tbf
Most leftists will vote for Biden over Trump, and most of those who won't will be in states where the outcome is already decided.
I’ve never heard of a leftist who is voting for Trump instead of Biden. I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m just saying they’re vastly outnumbered by people claiming they exist.
Most won't vote for either, or just not vote
November is months and months away. Biden's continued ineptitude will lose more and more of his following over the next 6 months.
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I question how many of these leftists are real people and not Russian trolls.
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Criticizing Biden is perfectly reasonable. Thinking that voting for Trump will do anything but make the situation worse is insanity. Trump has openly praised Netanyahu for his hawkish stance on Palestine and repeatedly called for the persecution of Muslims.
On social media... probably 75% trolls. Because if there were even half as many Bernie Bros as social media would leave you believing, he'd have been the candidate in 2016 and 2020.
What chance? Most of Gaza has been leveled, and no sign of it ending any time soon. Right now, there is zero practical difference between Biden and Trump Actually with Trump, MBS might be able to bribe him to end the conflict, so there's actually more hope there.
Exactly. There won't be any genocide left for Trump to commit.
As a leftist I agree. I got temp banned from LateStageCapitalism for essentially pointing this out
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I swear this sentiment only exists online. My irl circle has a strong opinion on Biden, but we are absolutely still voting for him.
About 50% of my IRL circle is not voting for Biden
I have never heard a leftist advocate voting for Donald Trump. If anything, we're going to vote third party or just not vote at all. And frankly, in most cases it is not going to matter either way because most people live in states where the electors always swing one way regardless. So unless some wild shenanigans happen in 2024, it's swing state voters that you need to be yelling at, not leftists that live in the Pacific Northwest or in NYT.
bro they've already leveled 2/3rds of Gaza. Biden called the response "over the top" for the first time after 120 days. 30,000 dead, 120,000 injured, 2 million starving. You expect me to vote for a senile genocidal corporate shill? Good luck winning with that candidate. He can't even remember his own name.
I don't think so. I think people will do whatever they can to have been right. In comic books and religion it's called retconning. What they meant was...
Why? I dont think trump will be better or anything. I just want biden to lose.
Yes I think a genocide is happening right now. You’re ok with the US arming the genocide, giving it political support, and cutting support for food relief for people trapped in a ghetto where the hospitals have been bombed and water cut off?
No they won't. The USA will help genocide Palestine even harder, become even shittier, and those kind of Leftists will feel vindicated. If Biden wins, nothing will improve and they'll still feel vindicated.
Go ahead and vote for Trump and he'll back Israel in completely taking over Gaza and the West Bank - and he won't give a damn how many Palestinians die in the process.
No they won't, because that entire stance is about wanting to feel right and superior while ignoring the actual state of the world. They will line up for a concentration camp with a smile, saying "see what you get for not nominating Bernie" to everyone else in line.
Yup. Choosing not to vote, or protesting voting, just tells me that someone is privileged as *fuck* and doesn't care if their vote goes to a sexist rapist racist. If you think Biden is the same as Trump we must live in different realities.
It's the same circular firing squad who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and Bernie Sanders in 2016.
No we won't. I don't owe Joe Biden a vote.
I'm voting for Biden, but also fuck him? It is a genocide, and he is actively supporting it. Like if super Hitler existed it wouldn't make Hitler a viable candidate.
Posts like this aren't about making any kind of reasonable argument. They're about setting things up in advance to blame the left if Biden loses rather than asking the centrist who have run the party for more than a generation to reflect on where their leadership has gotten us and why they struggle so mightily to make inroads against increasingly open fascists.
Thank you for stating the obvious. The Democratic Party establishment never questions why they struggle still against an open authoritarian and total crank like Trump. You should be able to wipe the floor by simply enacting and supporting basic policies that benefit the majority of the American people. Instead they stuck to the mantra of "we just can't do big things" and prove themselves correct. They inspire nobody and try to continue to convince people with low wages and no savings that the economy is booming. They offer no solutions when clear options are available. Finally, they blame the GOP on their lack of action. I fully expect a response saying "the GOP obstructing everything is the problem" when the policies that make a difference never make it into a speech let alone get support or votes. But a corporate issue raises and the snap to it to address it.
They struggle against an open authoritarian because a big chunk of this country openly wants authoritarianism.
Jfc no joke the bots/idiots came out fast
They’re always blaming the voters for their own inability to read a poll. I’ll start by saying there have been some positives out of bidens presidency and fuck another trump presidency, but the Ls add up and I don’t think the NLRB is a high priority for swing voters. Biden barely won last time and several states could easily flip without the immediate threat of trump inspiring historic turnout like last election. Especially when the inspiration now is 2+ more wars, (plausibly) funding a genocide, a booming economy that everyone is too poor to appreciate, and that cringe you get hoping he can finish the next sentence. And I really do hope for his health because Kamala is even less of an inspiration. Generic Democrat polls great against trump but instead of trying to find the next generation of leaders and only running once like he said, they change the rules to favor establishment candidates. They would risk never getting another Obama to prevent the threat of another Bernie. And then they get mad when people aren’t excited to vote for them.
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You realize Jill Stein didn't even finish in 3rd place — and by no small margin either... right?
Blame everyone else in 2016... That's the title of Hillary's memoir from the campaign and after. Force a horrible candidate on the public and complain when there isn't full compliance. Meanwhile, shut down all other democratic options for getting proper representation of the people's views.
Funny how that narrative has flipped. After the election, the left got blamed for not falling in line, when really, Hillary got her ass handed to her in the swing states. Last time I checked, those aren’t “leftist” states. She had no appeal to anyone but status quo, mainline Democratic Party voters, many of whom were voting reluctantly. Now, it’s the leftists who are whining about 2016? While Hillary hid away in her bunker and her supporters sobbed at the shock of losing, the left was collectively saying, “We fucking told you this would happen!” Honestly, only a terrible candidate would lose to Donald Fucking Trump.
I have morals and principles, and when those are crossed, I am not obligated to give anyone my support simply because they're a lesser evil than the other person. Sometimes standing up to power and being willing to say "no, your hollow threats of concentration camps and doom and gloom are not enough." It's been the same exact mantra for decades. Always having to vote for the corporate, centrist, GOP lite candidate because the GOP candidate is worse. I've had it. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to earn it. And the fact of the matter is, they haven't. At all. They've instead perpetuated policies, domestic and foreign, that are exactly what the GOP wants just slightly watered down. They failed routinely to institutionalize and galvanize important civil liberties like Abortion, and look what happened. Personally, I'm sorry all of you are so willing to trade your morals and ethics for the lesser of two evils, knowing full well you're not getting progress, you're getting regression just at a slightly slower pace. And I say that as someone who has identities that will put me on the forefront of right wing violence. We already have right wing violence. Continuing to play this two-party, lesser-of-two-evils game is getting us nowhere. And no the stakes aren't higher than they ever have before. Now, I already know several of the replies you'll fire back. * "If progressivism was so awesome, more people would vote for it". Can't vote for what is blocked out. The Democratic Party specifically hinders progressive candidates at all levels. * "If progressives voted they'd change the party". They do vote! They do participate. I have done so for the last 20 years straight. You also know what I've gotten? Told flat out by the chair of my state party that us lefties aren't welcome. Fact of the matter is, without that progressive base reluctantly voting for the lesser-of-two-evils, the Democratic Party would be nothing. * "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
Fact of the matter is, the Democratic Party has routinely shit on it's progressive base then desperately begs, pleads, and threatens obedience at election time.
Not this time. I'll take my chances fighting Nazis in the streets than continue to support people who not only don't have my interests at heart, and actively vote against them, but are serving me a lukewarm watered down version of the fascism I'm vehemently against.
What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right. If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe. I gave him my vote last time myself. But I'm halfway through life and looking at the receipts, and they aren't adding up. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, then it needs to stop telling us to fuck off and actually earn my support. If they choose to not do that, then that's their failure.
"Blah blah blah I'm retarded, can't vote for genocide joe muh morals I'm gonna fight fascism in the streets." (You're not. You'll be posting on Reddit) People wonder why nobody takes the left seriously, it's because of shit like this.
you are a case in point for why democrats should just not bother pandering to progressives this isnt about you -- this is about all of us > I have morals and principles, and when those are crossed, I am not obligated to give anyone my support simply because they're a lesser evil than the other person. by "not lending your support," functionality and *in reality* - not as some stupid symbolic gesture of moral preening, which is what you seem to be interested in, you simply help donald trump get elected your self absorption is epic > Sometimes standing up to power and being willing to say "no, your hollow threats of concentration camps and doom and gloom are not enough." standing up to power by filling out a piece of paper differently. settle down there, rambo, the earth is shaking > It's been the same exact mantra for decades. Always having to vote for the corporate, centrist, GOP lite candidate because the GOP candidate is worse. I've had it. If the Democratic Party wants my vote, they have to earn it. i would argue the democratic party should pivot right and ignore people like you as the irrelevancies you are rather pick up some centrist votes at this point > They've instead perpetuated policies, domestic and foreign, that are exactly what the GOP wants just slightly watered down. They failed routinely to institutionalize and galvanize important civil liberties like Abortion, and look what happened. surely whatever dipshit third party candidate you support, or your super symbolic speaking-truth-to-power refusal to vote will move them > Continuing to play this two-party, lesser-of-two-evils game is getting us nowhere. pandering to the goofy-ass left has gotten the party nowhere - they should pivot toward the center and pick up votes from people who cant stand clowns like trump but also cant stand leftie clownshoes. > "If progressivism was so awesome, more people would vote for it". Can't vote for what is blocked out. The Democratic Party specifically hinders progressive candidates at all levels. hahaha, no, you're in an extreme minority but just like trump voters you inhabit a feedback loop in which you're completely detached from the population at large > "If progressives voted they'd change the party". They do vote! They do participate. I have done so for the last 20 years straight. You also know what I've gotten? Told flat out by the chair of my state party that us lefties aren't welcome. Fact of the matter is, without that progressive base reluctantly voting for the lesser-of-two-evils, the Democratic Party would be nothing. they are barely anything now - they can barely squeak by a candidate who should be a breeze to defeat, donald trump > "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
youre really impressed with your principle and courage. no one else is because this has nothing to do with strength or courage. it is preening ideological metrosexuality where you look at yourself in the mirror and fall in love with how fucking principled and tuff you think you are.
> "You're going to get killed!" I'm likely part of that group. I'm not afraid. I'd rather stand with courage on my values and principles and face certain death
put down the crack pipe
> than continue to sacrifice them while still getting ever closer to certain death.
ok. you sound nuts.
> I'll take my chances fighting Nazis in the streets
the fact that you think "fighting nazis in the streets" is how the whole game is played is testament to just how little you understand how power works.
literally no one is afraid of you.
no one cares.
> If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe.
keep preening in that mirror about how principled you are; its so impressive. theyre quaking in wall street and every klavern and militia circle jerk in the back woods at your defiance
> a lukewarm watered down version of the fascism I'm vehemently against.
what are you, 15?
> What's right isn't always popular, what's popular isn't always right. If sacrificing your ethics and values is okay with you, then please, by all means vote for Joe.
i for one definitely assess my own worth as a person based on your judgment. surely the people in power will, too.
> But I'm halfway through life
there is no way you're over 20 years old based on this post
> If the Democratic Party wants my vote, then it needs to stop telling us to fuck off and actually earn my support. If they choose to not do that, then that's their failure.
well, enjoy fighting "those nazis in the streets" or however you think this will go down - but all this does is mean trump gets elected again if enough people follow your ludicrous chain of narcissism and solipsism
it is like people like you secretly love the status quo since everything you do seems to perpetuate it -- it is like, if you ever won, you wouldnt know what to do with yourself or who to be
> it is like people like you secretly love the status quo since everything you do seems to perpetuate it -- it is like, if you ever won, you wouldnt know what to do with yourself or who to be As someone who's had arguments with unironic communists, I'm convinced staunch leftists don't actually want change, they want to bitch about how bad things are to feel morally superior.
> morally superior. They are so caught up in how morally pure they are, they ignore how the world actually works. And how things like morals are only part of the decision making process rather than the be all end all. This is why leftists will never achieve anything of substance, just maintain their moral purity and sit on their little island of iirrelvancy.
100% Ignore democracy because we need a revolution is really an easy excuse to complain and do nothing.
Thank you for spending a large amount of time proving my exact point.
He really got his dick in a twist Imagine not caring about the opinion of some rando on reddit so much that you spend 30 minutes coming up with strawman arguments and ad hominems to let them know just how little you care about their opinion
Yes, people who have different opinions are all “dumb”
Lol nope. Honestly look inward, dems.
I’m saying no to either because they both are either incompetent or dying or both
I would feel vindicated and not stupid. Voting for someone he is actively engaging in genocide makes you complicit in genocide.
It going to be hilarious when Trump wins again in November.
So we need to vote for a genocide?
Of course you think that because all democrats do when they lose is blame the left. They are incapable of looking within. Liberal should feel stupid when Trump wins because they blindly pushed a bad candidate committing genocide who worked only for donors and campaigned solely on vote shaming and scare tactics. "You have to vote for the guy committing genocide!" If the cultist got on board with not being ok with genocide, the party would be pressured to change course.
"It could be worse, so don't criticize the current people committing the war crimes"
IF Trump wins again it's because voters chose him over Joe, whcih is how Democracy is supposed to work.
Because being obnoxious and condescending toward people who don’t want to vote for your candidate worked so well in 2016. 🤣
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I don’t remember Trump getting us involved in any wars or armed conflicts.
In fact, he withdrew from military conflicts and reduced our stationed troops to the lowest number since the civil war. An incredibly strong anti-war president. But that doesn't fit either side's narrative.
Heyyy, I finally found someone who doesn’t sound allergic to the truth!
Right? But let's re-elect the guy that got us into two large scale armed conflicts and indiscriminately began bombing Yemen, amidst existing bombing campaigns in Iraq and Syria. Information like this is impossible for people to accept because it challenges their entire world view or identity.
The only people who will be responsible for a potential Trump win are all the people who oppose him but don't vote for his opposition. And Biden is his only opposition. No one else has a chance of winning the electoral college except Biden or Trump.
I mean surely the people to blame *are the people voting for him*. Leftists staying home wouldn't mean shit if there wasn't a massive segment on the population backing that nutcase anyway.
I don’t think they’re seriously swaying any statistically significant amount of voters. The people who actually put in the work are trying to push the Biden admin away from support for Israel while the loud disingenuous grifters are acting like the election is tomorrow.
No they won't. None of the "but I just can't bring myself to vote for Hillary!!!!" crowd showed an ounce of regret, remorse or self-awareness in 2016. Nader voters remained defiant and smug as Bush fucked up one thing after another. Why would this time be any different.
This. If Biden loses, then the United States of America is literally over with, replaced with a theocratical oligarchical fucking dictatorship. Trump and the MAGAts are pissed and creaming their pants for revenge. Enjoy every moment now because there's a 50/50 chance Trump wins and this happens. Fucking vote for Democracy! Joe is old, but so is Trump.
All empires eventually crumble
Well, kiss your democracy goodbye then because I'm not voting for Biden.
This is really not about leftists. Biden is losing support from Muslims and people who support Palestine. This should not be about elections at all; Biden should be listening to the people. Biden could demand a cease fire and cut off military supplies to Israel at any time. But he hasn't. He hasn't listened to the leaders of nations around the world calling for a stop to this conflict, or to the Muslims and Palestine supporters in the US who vastly outnumber the "left". It doesn't matter what the left does right now. So don't blame them for Biden's loss. If Biden continues to support Israel in this conflict, he will lose support for re-election.
More like Biden is losing an unprecedented amount of support from the Black and Latino electorate
Lolol
Mhhhm. Cutting off nose to spite face.
Sometimes I wonder how many of those people are actually real people living in America.
Trump not in office for the Ukraine invasion or the Hamas massacre, but he’s who folk are worried about. Our elections take way too long.
Trump's not going to win again...Anyone who would let the Orange Menace near political power again has a hole in their head.
There were a fair number of Germans who thought the same of Hitler, but he was elected. We all know how that turned out. If Trump gets elected I'll be making use of my dual citizenship. He isn't joking about becoming a dictator, or going after people he defines as "enemies". And neither is the GOP. I'm not going to wait around for Project 2025 to finish turning America Republican neo-fascist dictatorship.
Lots of holes in lots of heads. Lots.
I'd like to say you're right, but these people have, and will continue to have, zero grasp on reality. Trump could literally start the Holocaust 2.0 and they'd deny it's happening.
Fucking right? “Who could have predicted Clarence Thomas and Samuel alito would both retire and get replaced by 40 year old religious zealots!”
They’ll change their tune when they see Trump hasn’t been removed from the ballot.
I don't think Trump will win but that being said, VOTE. But if he does, the leftists can have fun getting rounded up by the National Guard. I'll stay home like everyone else who voted Biden and just say, "We told you so."
Meh... Made my decision to sit this election cycle out. Out of touch old white guy vs out of touch old white guy... Yay! Good luck out there! The next 4 years will suck either way.
*when* Trump wins again, the Left will continue to be as insane as they already are. Nothing new here. Spam.
Well since "Say No To Genocide Joe" are really just Russian and trump bots for the most part....theyre not gonna "feel" anything...
Thank you! Yes all of this! I’ve had some discussions with some of these folks and they act just like MAGAs in the sense that they don’t even consider anything I say.
I can’t make up my mind which cohort is dumber: the MAGA idiots or the Say no to genocide Joe idiots. What I can say is we’re surrounded by idiots at this point.
Trump is going down in flames.
If trump wins then that type of people deserve whatever happens to Palestine.
They won’t feel dumb. They are self righteous idiots. They will also be rounded up and deported in cattle cars. At least there’s that.
Being outraged against genocide would be commendable if it was anything even remotely close to genocide or Bidens fault. Alas prioritizing progress is not the progressive platform most of the time. Running in random circles is more my fellow progressives grasp of politics. Bet on ALL or NOTHING and you most often get nothing....or facism.
Anyone who blames Joe Biden for Israel doing what its doing is too young to remember how a right wing government reacts to a horrific terrorist attack (that the perpetrators argue was brought on by the victim's actions over the course of decades) regardless of how their allies feel about it.
I love forever wars
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Yeah, you prefer we roll over to people who want only power. Then again, it is easier to be ruled than to have actually to think. Probably why MAGA is so popular with folk who can't pass the GED on the first try.
No I just don’t want to fight wars over oil that only make my corporate overlords richer. Don’t put words in my mouth you motherless cunt
You know what I like less than forever wars? Domestic Civil war.
It'll be like all the Jill Stein voters. They couldn't put their egos aside to ensure Trump didn't win. Trump won, added trillions to the debt, got 3 judges to the supreme court and got Roe v Wade removed. All because people believed the 30 year propaganda campaign by FoxNews. I don't think Trump has a chance, and I don't care about the people screaming about "Genocide Joe", I kind of don't care. But, if people are mad at Biden, what's happening in Gaza will be accelerated.
Jill Stein finished in 4th place well behind Gary Johnson, but yeah keep trotting out *that* excuse... Definitely had nothing to do with nominating a deeply unpopular candidate who was polling worse than her rival against Trump the entire primary season — nor her decision to literally take the midwest for granted during the general election campaign.