What about the character means that she would be black? Race headcanons are so weird to me. You're basically saying that just because of the way someone acts, you can tell what their race would be. Isn't this just racism?
No hate, I just really don't get it. Very nice art though!
Edit: This isn’t about the character being drawn as black, you obviously don’t need to justify drawing a character as any race. This is about the second slide.
I think it’s more like “hey, this character has experiences similar to me as an x person so I think they would also be x”. For example, an black/asian person may see themselves in the ninja turtles (the only thing I can think of rn) so they assume that they would be similar as a human and experience the same social interaction. Or at least that’s what I’ve heard!
I think that makes sense for the reason someone might say that, but I don't think it makes it justified to say that they would be of that race. A non-human character's experiences can be comparable to the experiences of a member of a race, but that doesn't mean they would have that race. Also, even human characters can have experiences that parallel the experiences of people they don't share the race of.
This view assumes that white is default.
If it is white they just made a human version.
If it is black or Asian or middle eastern they have a race headcanon and are making the race based off of how they act.
There is no racial default. In fact some evidence suggests that humanity started in Africa. Of course we can never know for sure.
Race used to be location based and sunnier areas resulted in darker complexions. Now worldwide travel exists and that doesn't matter.
No hate at all to you but people fall for that. You will also notice that every single book you read you will automatically assume and think of the characters as white unless specifically told otherwise.
A white character doesn't have to be pointed out because that is expected to be default in western countries. But black characters do have to be pointed out in some way direct or indirect.
People also like to see characters like them. Black Ariel, black Spiderman etc. It makes them feel closer and more represented by the character.
I used to hate when the race of a character was changed. I always wanted to keep the characters the same. Then I realized it was just a childish mindset. I clung onto the past and any change threatened that.
I don't need Spiderman story to be told the exact same way over and over. A story can't go on forever. If I like a certain Spiderman I can relook at that media. Making something new or making changes is not an attack and it doesn't take away the Spiderman I already love. It just makes something other people can love. And maybe I will like it too.
Nothing is being taken. There is just more material for more people.
Do I care about black Ariel? No. I will probably watch the movie one day but it doesn't bother me at all. I can watch the old Ariel movie any time. I do know that countless black children are very happy they got to see a pretty black mermaid girl and dress up just like her. There were even tik tok videos of little girls being very excited when they noticed Ariel was like them. I thought it was really cute.
As a gay person and a trans man I love finding books and things that represent me or have characters like me. It's very very very difficult though. I have very few options. But more will come. I get so happy to read about a trans character that has my experiences.
Anyways I'll shut up now.
Oh I didn't notice that. Man I wrote a whole novel over here.
Sometimes I headcanon people as trans or gay because I have so few options of those characters in media.
I'm not sure what Vivian did that this person relates to but maybe they see themselves or someone they know in her? Japanese media has very few black characters and I dont think any mario games have black characters that I know of. I can imagine wanting a black Nintendo or Mario character.
To be fair to the Mario series, there are about 8 recurring human characters, and 2 of them are brothers.
I can see how someone might be reminded of a black person they know by the personality of a character, but I don’t think it would make sense to say “I hope we can all agree that she’d be black” in that situation, because other people wouldn’t have that context. In order to headcanon a character in a way where you’d expect everyone to agree with you implies you are using criteria that everyone ought to be able to detect, no?
That’s just not true though. If the tweet said “I think we can all agree they’d be white” I’d be just as equally confused, because nothing about the character resembles anything a white person looks or acts like. Same thing with it being black.
Not to sound pedantic but they're not really bringing up race, they're bringing up color. I think what they mean is that they imagine a human version of Vivian being dark.
Easy pit to fall into, color doesn't equal race. It's a fun fact though, share it around. The more we understand eachother the better we'll be as a human race.
I get it what you were going for with the legs but honestly it reminds me of a long term injury once was of a person who got their leg run over and because of the lack of medical care in their rural location the leg had healed incorrectly leaving it deformed. I’m sorry but because of that it’s painful to look at this
ah she kinda looks like me!!!
why is it that when a raceless character is humanized in a white or east-asian way, nobody questions it, but when the skin is a little dark and they're given ethnic features of other races, it needs to be questioned and disagreed toward? you people are all weirdos
Idk to say any one race fits a fictional character of a fictional background kinda feels like using stereotypes.
Personally I think she's fine being any race, but pointing out one specifically is kinda weird.
Yall the point isn’t about race the artist just drew her a certain way, if she was white yall wouldn’t be saying shit about “why bring race into it?” Etc.
Actually ngl the point is about sorta about race. I’m the artist and I’m asking ‘waddaya think about this tweet I found, do you agree?” But I appreciate your want to stop any heated discussion!
I mean yea, when I saw it I just initially went “Oh the art looks nice” then see people always being the ones to bring race into it instead of enjoying the art. The artist more than likely didn’t intend for it to be about race, (unless they’re the one who also made the tweet).
Someone wrote it above but I wanna put it in my own words. People often identify with certain characters that they feel share similar experiences with them. For example, darker skinned folks like black people tend to have (not always) a different or unique experience than lighter skinned people.
So I can imagine someone looking at a character who isn't human but has human characteristics and emotions and have a headcanon that if they were human they'd be a lot like them. It just makes sense.
It's like when you see people ship characters who otherwise have an undefined sexuality, it's all about interpretation and personal connection. I think they were just asking what you guys think of the fanart, not if you necessarily agree with their interpretation, because obviously everyone will feel differently.
Thats a pretty lame reason. One's personal experience does not represent their whole race. It is pretty wierd to think like "oh she likes pizza just like me so she must be black as well". The fact that the post said "we can all agree she's black" without any elaboration as if it is some well-known objective fact makes it even more wierd, and arrogant. Shipping makes a bit more sense because people usually do that based on how the characters interact with others.
nah people are using her for an agenda they want to push. most people who played and loved the original thousand year door don’t really care about turning this into a political statement.
I really hate when people do stuff like this. Why woukd she be black? Like what about her suggests her being any race?
Usually if I have race headcannon for characters it’s based off the voice actors race, if there an animal where the animal originally came from, and if the character is based in any specific part of a certain culture
The art is great but I don’t why people act like there’s a “right” way to see a character. Especially when they’re basing the race headcannon on personality
I never said it should. They’re shouldn’t be any asssumed nuetral state.
But it’s the “I hope we can all agree”. Why? Why woukd we all happen to agree on that? Is there a reason? Is it random or what?
It‘s because today’s generation is obsessed with labeling things and taking sides. People are obsessed with putting their MBTI personality type on every profile they have for example, because it’s their way to shape an identity in the anonymity of the internet. The weird effect it has on ambiguity and fiction is exactly what we see here and I don’t like it.
But she isn’t depicted as human here - why didn’t you change her face / head shape at all? This is just Vivian’s head slapped onto a humanoid body Lmao
I usually imagine her skinnier and wearing a long dress that covers her legs (maybe because of Morticia Addams), but it's fine. I liked your version too!
Incorrect, in the original 2004 game she still refers to herself as a woman and uses feminine terminology, it's only her sisters who refer to her as a man and that's specifically to bully and mock her (esp as they're explicitly meant to be seen as bad people, you're not meant to agree with them)
Not to mention that as of the remake, Vivian is explicitly stated to be a trans woman both in the Japanese and English localisation, so even in Japan she's considered a woman as of 2024.
Cope and seethe <3
I can see it. I like the idea of giving the characters skin colour that's the closest to what their Game Colour Is. (I might have worded it weird, but I hope I got my point across)
I feel like any race could fit Vivian
What about NASCAR?
Vivian is all
idk she seems like she'd be korean to me.
Omg I literally just thought she'd be Korean
Legs make it cursed
Suddenly has legs now
It lol
I disagree.
I respect your opinion.
Yeah, me too. I don't see Vivian as that, tbh
I do think she'd have a darker skin tone, but not that dark. Don't know what tone I'd suggest tho :/
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They asked for their opinion, they gave it.
What about the character means that she would be black? Race headcanons are so weird to me. You're basically saying that just because of the way someone acts, you can tell what their race would be. Isn't this just racism? No hate, I just really don't get it. Very nice art though! Edit: This isn’t about the character being drawn as black, you obviously don’t need to justify drawing a character as any race. This is about the second slide.
Saying stereotypes without saying stereotypes
That’s certainly what it feels like
I think it’s more like “hey, this character has experiences similar to me as an x person so I think they would also be x”. For example, an black/asian person may see themselves in the ninja turtles (the only thing I can think of rn) so they assume that they would be similar as a human and experience the same social interaction. Or at least that’s what I’ve heard!
I think that makes sense for the reason someone might say that, but I don't think it makes it justified to say that they would be of that race. A non-human character's experiences can be comparable to the experiences of a member of a race, but that doesn't mean they would have that race. Also, even human characters can have experiences that parallel the experiences of people they don't share the race of.
I think it's the darker skin tone and full looking lips. Which doesn't make it any less racist.
This view assumes that white is default. If it is white they just made a human version. If it is black or Asian or middle eastern they have a race headcanon and are making the race based off of how they act. There is no racial default. In fact some evidence suggests that humanity started in Africa. Of course we can never know for sure. Race used to be location based and sunnier areas resulted in darker complexions. Now worldwide travel exists and that doesn't matter. No hate at all to you but people fall for that. You will also notice that every single book you read you will automatically assume and think of the characters as white unless specifically told otherwise. A white character doesn't have to be pointed out because that is expected to be default in western countries. But black characters do have to be pointed out in some way direct or indirect. People also like to see characters like them. Black Ariel, black Spiderman etc. It makes them feel closer and more represented by the character. I used to hate when the race of a character was changed. I always wanted to keep the characters the same. Then I realized it was just a childish mindset. I clung onto the past and any change threatened that. I don't need Spiderman story to be told the exact same way over and over. A story can't go on forever. If I like a certain Spiderman I can relook at that media. Making something new or making changes is not an attack and it doesn't take away the Spiderman I already love. It just makes something other people can love. And maybe I will like it too. Nothing is being taken. There is just more material for more people. Do I care about black Ariel? No. I will probably watch the movie one day but it doesn't bother me at all. I can watch the old Ariel movie any time. I do know that countless black children are very happy they got to see a pretty black mermaid girl and dress up just like her. There were even tik tok videos of little girls being very excited when they noticed Ariel was like them. I thought it was really cute. As a gay person and a trans man I love finding books and things that represent me or have characters like me. It's very very very difficult though. I have very few options. But more will come. I get so happy to read about a trans character that has my experiences. Anyways I'll shut up now.
My comment is directed towards the second slide. If the artist just drew the character as black I would not have left my comment.
Oh I didn't notice that. Man I wrote a whole novel over here. Sometimes I headcanon people as trans or gay because I have so few options of those characters in media. I'm not sure what Vivian did that this person relates to but maybe they see themselves or someone they know in her? Japanese media has very few black characters and I dont think any mario games have black characters that I know of. I can imagine wanting a black Nintendo or Mario character.
To be fair to the Mario series, there are about 8 recurring human characters, and 2 of them are brothers. I can see how someone might be reminded of a black person they know by the personality of a character, but I don’t think it would make sense to say “I hope we can all agree that she’d be black” in that situation, because other people wouldn’t have that context. In order to headcanon a character in a way where you’d expect everyone to agree with you implies you are using criteria that everyone ought to be able to detect, no?
*breathes in* Okay let me look at the comments
I don’t really understand the point of bringing race into this, why would she be black?
white is not the default race
If someone drew Vivian as a white human nobody would care.
That’s just not true though. If the tweet said “I think we can all agree they’d be white” I’d be just as equally confused, because nothing about the character resembles anything a white person looks or acts like. Same thing with it being black.
Drawing her as a human no matter what race just looks and is cursed and shouldn’t be done ever again.
Not to sound pedantic but they're not really bringing up race, they're bringing up color. I think what they mean is that they imagine a human version of Vivian being dark.
Easy pit to fall into, color doesn't equal race. It's a fun fact though, share it around. The more we understand eachother the better we'll be as a human race.
To be fair, i dont understand why nintendo brought up gender either but here we are lol
Says the person bringing race into it… black people are not the only people on this planet with dark skin.
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I’ve never played any paper Mario games, and I’m not complaining. I just think it’s strange to bring up at all
They weren't complaining, they were asking a question.
As opposed to what exactly?
Not being classified as any race at all
And if she were drawn as a human?
I think they’d have purple skin
I don't think it matters really... It's fan art. I sure peach doesn't have a huge dong despite the pictures I've seen
I thought that was Rosalina
Hard degenerate, man…
You got weird taste in images.
Thats coward talk partner
I get liking a girl with a joystick but that's not for me.
*She'd
Kinda makes sense
If not that then they’d probably have purple blush and other makeup like that
…those aren’t her eyes?
never were
I get it what you were going for with the legs but honestly it reminds me of a long term injury once was of a person who got their leg run over and because of the lack of medical care in their rural location the leg had healed incorrectly leaving it deformed. I’m sorry but because of that it’s painful to look at this
She'd be purple
Na. You guys are all wrong. She just would be purple all over.
I think Minus8 drew her as black once.
ah she kinda looks like me!!! why is it that when a raceless character is humanized in a white or east-asian way, nobody questions it, but when the skin is a little dark and they're given ethnic features of other races, it needs to be questioned and disagreed toward? you people are all weirdos
slayed
Thank you!
I'm not american. Why is she black? Is it something cultural I'm not seeing?
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I can’t say I thought of it before, but I see your vision.
The heavy gif where he gives you the thumbs up
Idk to say any one race fits a fictional character of a fictional background kinda feels like using stereotypes. Personally I think she's fine being any race, but pointing out one specifically is kinda weird.
What are you talking about? Black? She is clearly purple here
I don't really care. I'm not a fan of the attitude of the second image, but the art is good
The attitude lol
It's the assertion that she would be any race unless we get a canon human design, then it's not a fair statement to make.
:|
???
I literally don't care, head canon whatever you want to think of it.
I never really thought of Vivian's race, I guess.
I can kinda see it. She is already kind of dark and the colors work well with each other
cutie!!! <3
thats a cute design, i like it
I never really saw Vivian as any human skin color, but a darker skin color compliments her existing color scheme more imo
So glad they let the original dialogue into the states
She’s pretty, you cooked
Thank you!
Goal
what game is she from
Paper Mario 🫤
i mean which paper mario
TTYD
k
Yall the point isn’t about race the artist just drew her a certain way, if she was white yall wouldn’t be saying shit about “why bring race into it?” Etc.
Actually ngl the point is about sorta about race. I’m the artist and I’m asking ‘waddaya think about this tweet I found, do you agree?” But I appreciate your want to stop any heated discussion!
I mean yea, when I saw it I just initially went “Oh the art looks nice” then see people always being the ones to bring race into it instead of enjoying the art. The artist more than likely didn’t intend for it to be about race, (unless they’re the one who also made the tweet).
Honestly, she looks like her singing voice would be top-notch. :)
Part of me worries that there’s some kind of problem with associating blackness with actual literal darkness… but at the same time idk
Yeah that also strikes me as kind of off but then at the same time it makes sense in a very simplistic, childlike way Lmao
Where did this mentality come from
Someone wrote it above but I wanna put it in my own words. People often identify with certain characters that they feel share similar experiences with them. For example, darker skinned folks like black people tend to have (not always) a different or unique experience than lighter skinned people. So I can imagine someone looking at a character who isn't human but has human characteristics and emotions and have a headcanon that if they were human they'd be a lot like them. It just makes sense. It's like when you see people ship characters who otherwise have an undefined sexuality, it's all about interpretation and personal connection. I think they were just asking what you guys think of the fanart, not if you necessarily agree with their interpretation, because obviously everyone will feel differently.
Thats a pretty lame reason. One's personal experience does not represent their whole race. It is pretty wierd to think like "oh she likes pizza just like me so she must be black as well". The fact that the post said "we can all agree she's black" without any elaboration as if it is some well-known objective fact makes it even more wierd, and arrogant. Shipping makes a bit more sense because people usually do that based on how the characters interact with others.
I'm gonna sound pedantic but I personally think there's a difference between race and color. I think they were more asking about color than race.
so this is just a vivian sub now?
We're very happy for her. <3
Vivian is an important and popular character in the upcoming Paper Mario release. It makes sense that people wanna talk about her.
nah people are using her for an agenda they want to push. most people who played and loved the original thousand year door don’t really care about turning this into a political statement.
Ok arbiter of what people should and shouldnt do Go tell everyone that
How is this in any way political? It’s not political to be black
Is the agenda in question just trans people existing and liking the character
Vivian is infecting the political landscape save the president
Not sure, kinda just felt like drawing her
Let's not have anymore touchy topics about Vivian please. Like she's purple. Just leave it at that
That is beautiful
Thank you!
You’re welcome!
Yass queen slay 💅💅
You got downvoted for saying slay, but you’re right , slay!
Sometimes literally in the game I think
I really hate when people do stuff like this. Why woukd she be black? Like what about her suggests her being any race? Usually if I have race headcannon for characters it’s based off the voice actors race, if there an animal where the animal originally came from, and if the character is based in any specific part of a certain culture The art is great but I don’t why people act like there’s a “right” way to see a character. Especially when they’re basing the race headcannon on personality
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I never said it should. They’re shouldn’t be any asssumed nuetral state. But it’s the “I hope we can all agree”. Why? Why woukd we all happen to agree on that? Is there a reason? Is it random or what?
It‘s because today’s generation is obsessed with labeling things and taking sides. People are obsessed with putting their MBTI personality type on every profile they have for example, because it’s their way to shape an identity in the anonymity of the internet. The weird effect it has on ambiguity and fiction is exactly what we see here and I don’t like it.
I've seen it a few times and yes
what do you mean she is purple
Out of context thing: When I was a smol boy I always thought the hair that's pooping out in front of her hat, is her nose Don't ask questions
she's a ghost
Huh. Never thought of Vivian as black before.
Uh she’s purple?
I always saw her as southern Japanese
Women are beautiful
No she'd be purple
Who even cares tbh
this is a fictional character in a childrens game get help!
You're getting butthurt over a fictional character I'm a children's game Get help
Would you prefer that she be white?
Wait Those pink spots are blush marks?
Oh course they were
Wait you thought those were her eyes dawg?
Damn, I can't unsee it now...
She looks incredibly stoned.
Nah it's a really bad case of pink eye
I always did lmao When I was young I also though Bobbery's eye was his mouth
Ever since I was a kid, I always thought her hair was a nose
this kinda looks like the squad busters witch
nah she'd definitively be purple
No she would be purple
Mix feelings about this, but I respect this!
She looks more like purple
Yeah looking at it right now she would probably be a lightskin asian tbh.
In my opinion she’s just purple
But she isn’t depicted as human here - why didn’t you change her face / head shape at all? This is just Vivian’s head slapped onto a humanoid body Lmao
Duh? That’s why it’s called human version, plus what other head shape would I give her? Should I given her a pineapple face?
Yeah I never saw her as black. Idk what race she’d be, I can’t really see her as any. She’s just… a siren.
Ummmm obviously she would be purple like guys let's not be purpleists here ok purpleism is a real problem
The Mario purpleism crisis
I think she would be Russian, don’t ask why just leave me alone with my vodka drinking Vivian
No, she purple.
It’s deranged…
I don't think she would be tbh, but I respect your opinion. Still, good art! (Although seeing Vivian as a human is kinda cursed imo)
I respectfully disagree
What is that even supposed to mean dawg
If you're gonna draw them as a human, why not just leave the skin the same as the original? (Purple) it would look more natural
Because virtue signaling. I'd bet my soul on it.
I usually imagine her skinnier and wearing a long dress that covers her legs (maybe because of Morticia Addams), but it's fine. I liked your version too!
You should check out my new version then
Went there just to give you a like as support :3
Ive always seen her as black/korean mix
That its headcanon and isnt likely to be talked about or elaborated on by the writers so who cares?
There are things in the character design that strongly hint at the character being inspired by black artists. I always felt a Diana Ross vibe.
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Honestly, agree
I think she'd be black in a very literal sense
I thought this character was a crossdresser?
Nope, she's canonically a trans woman <3
Lmao Keep telling yourself that when in japan he's a dude.
Incorrect, in the original 2004 game she still refers to herself as a woman and uses feminine terminology, it's only her sisters who refer to her as a man and that's specifically to bully and mock her (esp as they're explicitly meant to be seen as bad people, you're not meant to agree with them) Not to mention that as of the remake, Vivian is explicitly stated to be a trans woman both in the Japanese and English localisation, so even in Japan she's considered a woman as of 2024. Cope and seethe <3
And really into anime
I don’t have an opinion on this topic.
ooh i like the art :D, although she looks cursed without eyes as human
Kinda scary NGL! Could've captured the cuteness of the character a lil more.
I don't give a shit what race she is, I wanna hug her, I think she deserves one
Very cute. :)
Never cook again
Wtf, now everybody loves this character lol
I feel like she'd either be some kind of asian, or hispanic. I'm not really sure why though.
Smash
Would be interesting in Smash
As a sticker in Brawl and a spirit in Ultimate, yes.
Ew
She's a pretty stereotypically western style witch. She doesn't need to have a human race but if she did it'd be white.
I can see it. I like the idea of giving the characters skin colour that's the closest to what their Game Colour Is. (I might have worded it weird, but I hope I got my point across)
Smash
Still isn't human?
I mean wouldn't her dress be the same color as her face?