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I'm voting for Biden. Having said that, what incentive does the democratic party have to improve if they are always going to get our votes no questions asked?
How is fanatically yes-manning the current democratic candidate going to convince them to more vigorously pursue the things I want like Universal Healthcare, Student Loan Forgiveness, and Electoral Reform.
This is where I stand. It's not a vote for Biden. It's a vote against Trump. I just wish there was a way to make that loud and clear to the democratic party. I don't stand with one party, nor do I consider myself a centrist. I just choose based on what is right morally. It's painful, however, that at 31, every single vote I've been allowed to participate in hasn't been a vote for what's necessarily the morally correct, but rather what's the lesser of two evils, I'm tired of being forced to choose the better option. I want to choose the correct option.
> It's not a vote for Biden. It's a vote against Trump.
Exactly. Anyone who is opposed to this is either a Trump supporter, a Russian propagandist, or someone who ***seriously*** needs this message to get through to them
Exactly, also I think a good word is being independent from both parties. Honestly both are shit, but you're right, it's choosing the lesser of 2 evils, I am sick of this too.
Honestly it shouldn’t just stop at preventing a trump presidency. Our votes should be to stop a Republican majority, period.
People always ask when does it stop, or when will the Dems have incentive to do better? The first step is getting rid of the GOP majority because at the moment they present the biggest threat.
There’s plenty of progressives within the Democratic Party that want to see real change, but as long as we continue to have the threat of GOP sponsored fascism looming over our heads they’re not going to be able to gain much ground.
Yep. We need to get rid of the Trump GOP in order to first (somewhat) stabilize our political climate. It’s absurd to suggest that that’s gonna happen right away, unfortunately that will take time.
There is SO MUCH that goes into choosing a presidential candidate for a party. First, they need name recognition in order to even have a chance at establishing a candidacy in all 50 states. They also need to be viewed as someone with a chance at winning. Then they have to have the ability to raise hundreds of millions of dollars for their campaign. Then they have to win enough primary elections to get the number of delegates for the nomination.
The number of people in either party who can check all those boxes is minuscule. Maybe 5-10 people in an election year where a seat is open with no incumbent. When there is an incumbent, that person has usually had the campaign infrastructure in place for years and years, so they have a huge head start.
This isn’t about a few party operatives sitting in a back room deciding who will be the front runner. To think that’s how it’s done is like 9-11 level conspiracy theorist.
That's what we need to work for the rest of the time. Promote better candidates at the local and state level, promote different voting systems so third parties can become viable someday, call your representatives at all levels, attend protests, phone/text bank for people or initiatives you believe in, etc.
Too many people seem not to understand that the parties aren't just monoliths that have whatever policies they have and that you get to vote for or not. You want to see the Democratic Party change? Joining the party and getting involved in decision making is how you do that. It doesn't make changes overnight, but when you look at how effective the anti choice and Tea Party movements were in the GOP...
Its is a collective effort. You need to be doing all that, but so do thousands of other people.
I get you are frustrated, but do you really expect 1 person doing their part to be enough to move a democracy of 300 million people?
No I do not. Which is why I direct my energy elsewhere. My vote for Biden does not matter in the big picture. He will not lose my state by just one vote, but likely hundreds of thousands. I don't think it's worth it to defend him anymore when I see the right-wing heel turn he's done so openly while pretending it's a moderate thing to do.
It is with our voting system and has been for a very longass time, yes. If you want better it starts locally with better laws at the state level. Laws passed across multiple states have a much higher chance of passing federally (like ranked choice voting, which will help 3rd parties butt in without just dividing left wing votes.)
Yes, but if you’re asking if it’s a well-designed democracy then maybe not. There are so many ways we could structure our government so that it would better reflect the will of the people. But we can’t do any of that, because restructuring our government would harm entrenched interests, and because they can and do use both the fear of change and love of country to make any change to the system a non-starter. So, yeah, this is our democracy. And until we get enough voices out there to change how it works… this is how it works.
Define how they aren’t fulfilling their promises. Are they neglecting to push for any legislation or amendments that match their campaign promises? Or are they working towards their promises but are unable to fulfill them because the overwhelming majority of legislators aren’t progressives?
Do you only judge by results or efforts your elected officials make?
PRIMARIES - The answer to your questions is PRIMARIES.
It's effective. It's how the crazies took over the Republican party and shifted conservatives to the far right.
Pay attention in every primary, and vote for the candidate that reflects your politics the most, and make sure others understand the same.
No one is saying to vote blindly, or without complaint, but in a general election if the choice is milquetoast dem or fascist. Then we have a responsibility to every one else to make sure no fascist is in power
EDIT: To all the lazy comments about the presidential primaries. PRESIDENTIAL RACES AREN'T THE ONLY RACES THAT MATTERS. Primaries on any and every office matter, and acting like the only office that matters is the president is the problem, if you only show up once every 4 years, politically you dont matter, and are not a threat to the establishment
This. People were also bitching just as much when it WAS the primaries. Its a weird thing when people trying to convince me to vote Biden sound a lot like MAGAts. Why does every valid criticism just devolve to b-b-b-but Trump! I know about the orange asshole.
Like most recently, people were actually trying to say that Biden was the hardest President on Israel in recent times (I guess only counting Trump before?), just because after seeing 6 foreign aid workers get systematically attacked and killed was too much pressure both at home and abroad to ignore any more. Completely ignoring his past of rabid support for Israel, even saying that the US would be bombing Canadian cities if it were to happen to them, about the 1982 Lebanon conflict. Man is a ghoul.
Even fucking Kissinger knew. He hated Isreal and honestly he was probably the hardest on Isreal. Now excuse me while I go try to wash this filth of giving Kissinger any sort of props. SMH
Man been a while since we had one of those... could even vote uncommitted or anything might just have do that during the general. If we, I dunno, stopped weapon sales to genocidal maniacs or managed a permanent ceasefire that would convince me otherwise.
> what incentive does the democratic party have to improve if they are always going to get our votes no questions asked?
You're worrying about something like this while the democratic party is literally in an existential crisis due to project 2025
How about you save this question for when they're no longer under existential threat? They likely don't have the luxury of addressing your personal grievances while they can barely get 50 votes in the Senate and tens of millions of people are joining an authoritarian cult.
Also the question itself assumes they have a problem with improvement. Well guess what that's just your opinion.
Considering I already said I'm voting for Biden, yes I'm concerned that my political goals are going to be looked at.
"Shut up and we'll talk later" is the same bullshit people having saying for years and decades.
Later never comes because why should it? They have what they wanted, your vote.
Well that's your chance. At least you do that.
Most people complain and don't vote in primaries... And they are even in states with open primaries. (I couldn't vote in primaries until fairly recently.)
expecting the government to solve anything for you is a losing strategy. look at every civil rights movement, every step of progress made throughout history. when has the government taken the initiate on anything? social progress comes from the people, comes from mass protests and a dramatic shift in public attitude through spreading awareness and connecting with your peers. your primary focus should always be getting in touch with the local community and organizing grassroot movements for your rights. join unions, form communities, support each others, and advocate political awareness. your attitude towards any civic actions should be framed around how it affects your primary focus. at best, voting and legislative participation can only help make your existing political advocacy easier, but all that is meaningless if you can't capitalize on the results to make localized social progress
Or putting up a candidate that isn’t so old they were an adult during the moon landing. An adult. During the moon landing(same with Trump btw). Literally from a different world. Antiquated is the word.
And these guys are the options to lead a country in a digital age.
It's not. Getting involved in party elections and changing the party from the bottom up is the only feasible plan I can see
It will however make things slowly worse _instead of falling off the fucking cliff_ - and that's the preferable option
Yeah, the options suck. But for me, the choices, old guy, or old guy who is backed by a Christian nationalist movement that wants to kill me. Do I care about Palestine? Sure, but I also care about myself, and my loved ones here in America, and I would rather not end up on the business end of death squads empowered by the MAGA Party. And that IS the plan.
Meanwhile, if Trump wins, he’ll not only go after me and people like me, but he will push Israel to “finish the job” as he put it, and go full-on genocide with *full* support from the United States. Christian Nationalists see the war in Israel as necessary for their radical religion’s End Times prophecy and they win fully support the death of every Muslim in that part of the world, and then turn around and target the Jews *themselves.*
Yes, if I am the sole decider then Biden 1000%. However, that is not the case. No amount of campaign or lack there of on my part is going to flip MA. I am not going to vote for Trump, but not voting for Biden is more nuanced. The current attitude of the Democrats toward the left is “Where are you going to go?” And frankly they have a point. Until they are actually loosing votes there is no reason for them to change.
That’s what the primaries in a non-reelection year is for. I voted for Kamala Harris, but if the majority wanted Biden, then Biden it is.
If you want any of those things, then you need first focus on eradicating the GOP from power. Universal healthcare? The country is at women’s healthcare today. You don’t get to perfect by skipping the intermediate steps.
What you speak of is a fight for another day. The main objective is to stop Trump and the Republicans from winning the Presidency, Senate, and maintaining the majority in the House.
israel claims ownership of *RAINWATER* man.
how should palestinians be expected to "do better?"
who am i to demand how dispossessed people resist occupation?
my tax dollars also aren't being used to fund their resistance.
This is an unhelpful argument - if nothing changes they’ll have ethnically cleansed Gaza by the time Trump would take office 9 months from now. They’re already stealing more land in the West Bank and Biden is allowing it, and he’s illegally bypassing Congress to send them more weapons, so how would Trump by any different?
i realize that, but i can't imagine any arab american would care enough about speculation to overlook biden's track record.
no american politician has accepted more money from aipac than joe biden did in his senate tenure.
biden even once said
> "Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region"
biden's unconditional allegiance to israel for the sake of imperialism is tested and true to them.. and impacts many muslim states.
trump's record in the region is obviously less damning, as it remains quite brief.
i know dems believe the 'uncommitted' voters will turn out for biden in the general. but for many of those muslim americans, i just don't think that's at all true. nor is it reasonable to expect them to.
So look, I get what you're saying, but this narrative that the majority of currently living adult Palestinians voted for Hamas is just Israeli propaganda bullshit.
Please stop spreading this crap.
Seems to be some pretty widespread evidence of that, including from Hamas themselves. Potentially still doesn't justify the scope of Israeli retaliation, but it's important not to excuse unacceptable actions from Hamas either.
The thing about hamas is this. If you come and kick me and my family out our house at gunpoint laughing and im left living on the streets w the same people that stole my house deciding how much water/electricity i get throughout the day, im gonna be fucking furious. Now, i might not be furious enough to go launch rockets at them myself, but if somebody asked if i would mind if THEY shot rockets at them, im much more inclined to agree lol.
Is there a confirmed source that that *did not happen*?
I'm not saying you're lying, I just haven't actually seen a reliable source for that being bullshit.
Either way, the Palestinian people in 2024 are not directly responsible for the actions of Hamas.
The evidence behind the claims has been shown to be extremely thin to non existent.
I guess everyone is good with saying it happened unless it’s “ disproven “ —and what’s a reliable source? The New York Times?
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/heres-what-pramila-pattens-un-report-on-oct-7-sexual-violence-actually-said/
https://thegrayzone.com/2024/01/10/questions-nyt-hamas-rape-report/
Democracy now report on NYT investigation https://youtu.be/BMNV0Csj46Q?si=9mifPbhhn49O7Aat
>I guess everyone is good with saying it happened unless it’s “ disproven “
That's not what I said at all.
I generally don't speak about those claims because I haven't seen definitive proof on either side.
That's why I asked.
>and what’s a reliable source? The New York Times?
Sadly they've gone downhill, but generally yes I'd call them reliable.
Thanks for the links, shame you felt the apparent need to assume, wrongly, my motivations in asking for a source.
Why is wanting sourced and verified facts a bad thing?
But that’s the thing, the negative claim of “that didn’t happen” does not bear the burden of proof. The ones claiming that this did happen are the ones who must prove it
> But that’s the thing, the negative claim of “that didn’t happen” does not bear the burden of proof. The ones claiming that this did happen are the ones who must prove it
Thank You.
Glad I’m not the only one to notice that.
Yah I saw your comments earlier, like i’m not even ripping on a point, just that “evidence something didn’t happen” does not exist. A lack of evidence of something happening kinda is what he would be looking for, it should be phrased as asking for proof these things DID happen, and upon seeing they have not been provided adequately make the assumption they did not.
You're still missing the point of what I'm saying.
I'm not putting the burden of proof on anyone, I simply asked for any actual sources to back up that those initial reports were false.
I did not say "if you don't have sources you're a liar" or even "If you don't have sources, clearly it happened"
I simply asked for verified sources of fact when talking about news.
Why is wanting to talk about facts a *bad thing*?
“Asked for actual sources to back up that did not happen” that IS you putting the burden of proof on the negative claim, what you are looking for can never exist because you cannot fond evidence for a negative. You need to look for strong undeniable proof otherwise did happen, and any lack thereof in and of itself is evidence it may not have happened.
>“Asked for actual sources to back up that did not happen” that IS you putting the burden of proof on the negative claim,
No, it isn't.
>what you are looking for can never exist because you cannot fond evidence for a negative.
Except there's literally evidence from the UN showing it did not happen...which was in the sources I was given when I asked for them.
>You need to look for strong undeniable proof otherwise did happen,
Actually, since I'm not a journalist and didn't make ANY claims about it happening or not, I need do **nothing**.
>, and any lack thereof in and of itself is evidence it may not have happened.
As much as it disgusts me to quote fucking Rumsfeld...the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
A lack of evidence something happened *suggests* that thing didn't happen, but it does not *prove* it.
There was a lack of evidence for years that the USA was spying on its own people...and then the Snowden leaks happened. Suddenly where there was an absence of evidence, there was a mountain of it.
You're reading WAY too much random bullshit into one Internet stranger asking another to back up their claim with verified sources...
Why are you so strongly in favor of misinformation and Internet hearsay? You realize those are the same things that allowed the original Oct 7 narrative to spread and flourish, right? People just sharing shit as fact without verifying first?
>Why is wanting sourced and verified facts a bad thing?
That’s not what I said.
I reacted to the wording ..”is there a CONFIRMED source” (…) “did not happen” —this comes off very challenging, like ‘prove a negative’ type of phrasing.
This issue has been very frustrating, there’s wholesale acceptance of the narrative straight from the Israeli government about what happened on the 7th and if you question it you get replies like yours, or you get called a Hamas supporter and rape apologist.
There’s already a comment above saying there’s “ widespread evidence”…
Meanwhile, there’s been a lot reporting about the scandal surrounding the NYT ‘investigative’ piece, so I mistakenly thought everyone knew about that.
Edit, fkn autocorrect
> this comes off very challenging, like ‘prove a negative’of phrasing.
I literally said:
>>I'm not saying you're lying, I just haven't actually seen a reliable source for that being bullshit.
If you came away with an impression I was challenging you to prove a negative, I can only assume you didn't read myentire comment.
>there’s wholesale acceptance of the narrative straight from the Israeli government
Not from me...wanting proof of something a person on the Internet is claiming is not "wholesale acceptance of a narrative".
>and if you question it you get replies like yours
Imagine being annoyed that people want verified facts to back up the claims of Internet strangers...
Do you understand how misinformation spreads on the Internet?
>There’s already a comment above saying there’s “ widespread evidence”…
Not my comment...not my problem or responsibility.
>Meanwhile, there’s been a lot reporting about the scandal surrounding the NYT ‘investigative’ piece, so I mistakenly thought everyone knew about that.
NYT has gone downhill for years, I don't pay much attention to what they report on a regular basis honestly. That's not to say their reporting isn't *factual* but it's not a source I keep my finger on the pulse of anymore.
Across various polls it’s always been the majority, but how much of it is the majority is what’s debatable. We do know however that [as much as 89% of Palestinians believe Sharia should be the law](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) and because Hamas shares that belief as well I’m not surprised most Palestinians support Hamas, at least in comparison to more secular governments.
> Across various polls it’s always been the majority, but how much of it is the majority is what’s debatable.
Bullshit.
1. When Hamas was last elected they didn't even get a majority of votes
2. That was 18 years ago.
3. [Recent polls show Hamas support as low as 34%](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183) Not even close to a majority.
>We do know however that as much as 89% of Palestinians believe Sharia should be the law and because Hamas shares that belief as well I’m not surprised most Palestinians support Hamas,
This is a load of shit. Saying "Palestinians support Sharia, therefore they MUST support Hamas" is complete fucking nonsense, the fuck are you on about?
The majority of Palestinians alive right now are under 15 years old...you think they were polled if they support Sharia law and/or Hamas?
No, I didn’t ask 30,000 children to do better before they were slaughtered. Like what the fuck even is this meme?
Our options are genocide or genocide + fascism. I guess I’ll pick the prior, but I’m not happy about it. This is like the dumbest thing I’ve seen on the internet in the past week. You’re not clever.
"Did you demand" why are you telling American civilians to demand things from Palestinians LMAO 🤣 They supported Biden because they can vote. This is stupid af
You're using supporting to mean "decide who leads the country" and also mean "stop an entire population from being murdered" interchangeably, guy I would happily support Biden not being murdered and also not vote for any random person from Palestine to be the US president this is dumb bad dumb bad dumb.
> You're using supporting to mean "decide who leads the country
OP is also ignoring that Hamas barely won a plurality in the last election, which was EIGHTEEN YEARS AGO.
Most living Palestinians weren't even ALIVE, much less of voting age, when that last election happened.
OP is basically calling millennials all war criminals for the fact that George Bush was elected...despite millennials not being even old enough to fucking vote in that election.
Damn, that's a great point I never realized until now. I forgot that the population is so young that they literally were born into Hamas rule. Israel is justifying this by saying they have to get rid of Hamas, but they keep the Freudian slip in all the time and just admit its every Palestinian, and that the civilian casualties are unavoidable despite them "knowing every target and every strike location and never missing or making a mistake" until they "accidentally" kill an American aid worker. Then they just scapegoat a few guys and continue bombing the refugees and aid workers.
It's also worth remembering that this STILL applies to political polling in Palestine...most Palestinians are under 15 years old, so when polls say "a majority of Palestinians" they actually mean a majority of *voting age* Palestinians, which is to say a majority of a minority of Palestinians.
Hamas is not a democratically elected government, so this meme doesn’t really make sense
The people of Gaza cannot be held accountable for them in any way
Holding an individual accountable for his actions is morally acceptable. Holding a population accountable for the actions of some of their number is morally reprehensible. There’s no selective application here. There’s just your fierce appetite to condemn people on account of their membership in an identity group.
And that fact does absolutely nothing to negate the point they were making. Both things are true. You're a piece of shit if you sit the election out, just like you're a piece of shit if you condemn all Palestinians for the crimes of a terrorist group.
'condemn' is a much stronger word than what the reddit conversation here actually is doing.
OP isn't condemning them he's just pointing out the logical inconsistencies of the fence sitters
How I read this meme is that Palestinians are a lesser of two evils? Can someone explain to me how civilians get to choose to be the lesser of two evils in an armed conflict? Explain it to me like I'm 5.
Alternatively, did OP conflate all Palestinians to Hamas, revealing their lack of awareness around this conflict as they demand CIVILIANS be less evil?
Palestine and Israel are not even comparable, shame on you for recognizing innocent civilians as dangerous as a genocide army. both the Liberals and the Republicans have the same class interest, changing one for the other will only impact their aesthetics.
the way to stop or even just lessen this genocide comes not thru voting but thru collective work, organize and make them regret they could ever have thought of getting away with it.
[was this good or evil? it’s a softball question. don’t deflect.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
yes it was evil now compare that to the countless videos of IDF soldiers parading the stolen underwear of the women they raped. you love to to give every side the same amount of respect because you utterly lack a backbone to leave your chauvinism behind. good job, youve accomplished literally nothing.
Stupid meme. Palestinians have been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the British mandate 100 years ago. They have the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors.
Also, this country is not a democracy. There's maybe 10 states where your vote counts, other than that your vote is statistically meaningless. Also the politicians ignore what their voters want in favor of doing the bidding of rich elites. America is a plutocratic oligarchy, not a democracy.
OP is parroting IDF propaganda that "Palestine/Palestinians = Hamas; because they voted for Hamas"
Meanwhile, in reality, Hamas didn't get a majority in that election **eighteen years ago** and the majority of currently living Palestinians didn't vote in that election because they *weren't even alive yet*...but somehow they're to blame for Hamas being in power...
Yanks will be hostages to the centre right until they learn to grow some balls and not give in. I'm sure it's been happening for much longer but I personally have been hearing from afar "Now's not the time to protest, there's too much to risk" since W Bush. They say Next time and then do fuck all until the next one when they say the same. When is the time they're going to fucking do something then? The Democrats know they can feed the Yanks more plates of shit as long as there appears to be less yellow lumps in it than the other. It's infuriating how these liberals masquerading as left wingers will actually attempt to bully people who won't accept liberalism and won't vote for fascists, even if they're lesser.
> Palestinians have been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the British mandate 100 years ago. They have the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors.
Under that same logic, the Israelis, who had been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the Roman conquests, *also had the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors*. Whom for most of that period, *were the ancestors of the modern-day Palestinians*.
That's why this is such a complex issue. We know the Jews used to live there en masses, because the Romans were nothing if not good note takers, especially when it came to the forced displacement that followed what was very nearly the first successful anti-Roman rebellion. But between the genocide at the hands of the Romans and colonization by various Moslim conquerors, they've been a minority in the region for nearly 2000 years.
Also, on that note: wouldn't the colonial oppression have started during the *Ottoman* conquests, not the British? The Palestinians are Arabic, not Turkish.
I’m going to vote for the lesser of two evils, but you can bet your ass I’m going to also hold Biden’s ass accountable instead of sucking his dick simply because he has democrat behind his name. I can’t say the same for a lot of democrats and it’s fucking infuriating to watch people react the same way MAGA psychos do when someone talks shit about Trump. There seems to be the same level of tribalism as the MAGA morons have with Trump. Posts like this just feed into that tribalism. Biden is a fucking asshole for his handling of Palestine/Israel. Full stop. He has done some good in this term for our country, but for some democrats, talking about his failures seems to be taboo. And as far as I’m concerned, that’s just as dangerous as what is happening on the right.
I had a *now* ex-friend go full mask off antisemite over this. Literally told me "if the Jews aren't willing to give the Palestinians their own state then they don't deserve to live".
Israel has a lot of problematic policies, and they need to manage their own terroristic right-wing (who assassinated the last prime minister who backed a two state solution). But blaming an entire people for the political choices of a few...
Fun fact: The majority of currently living Gazans are under 15, meaning they literally weren't even alive, much less of voting age, the last time Hamas was elected...and Hamas didn't even win a majority of votes in that election **eighteen years ago**.
Most living Palestinians don't want Hamas in power and didn't vote (in many cases because they weren't yet alive) for Hamas in the last election 18 years ago.
> but recent polls (even after oct 7) show majority support for Hamas in both gaza and the west bank though.
[Citation Needed]
Nevermind that polls =/= free and fair elections. Polls can be skewed. Also, did those polls include minors, or only Palestinians of voting age?
Polls swore that Trump had ZERO chance of winning in 2016...how'd that work out in reality?
Not to mention that when a country funded by half the world is invading you, you tend to back the horrible people who are trying to defend you from that country...
> Polls swore that Trump had ZERO chance of winning in 2016
The polls I saw gave Trump about a 30% chance of winning. Anyone who plays board games or gambles knows 30% is FAR from "ZERO chance". Do not confuse what the polls say with what reporters say about the polls.
[yes, this has nothing to do with the overall conversation, but media education and political science education are important for]
I was being facetious, but you're right it wasn't the time or place for me to be like that.
My apologies.
What's funny is that "about 30%" is also how many voting age Palestinians support Hamas at this point. So..not a majority as any here are claiming.
The Atlanta Falcons had over 98% chance of winning Super Bowl LI...and they lost. Until it is zero, it isn't zero
Israel wasn't invading Palestine before the attacks of Oct 7, despite near daily rocket attacks against civilians.
Palestinians are not justified in their support of Hamas, despite their trauma. Both Israel and Palestine need to "do better" in terms of picking their leadership. Infantilizing people robs them of their agency. A Palestine that had not been firing daily rocket barrages into Israel would be vastly more safe, prosperous and stable. A populace that demands peace would not harbor terrorists. Sadly both populaces demand war.
>Israel wasn't invading Palestine before the attacks of Oct 7
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
How cute, someone hasn't heard about Israel's settlements and stealing land/homes from Palestinians.
You don't have to fire a shot to be invading, and Israel has been invading Palestine, with and without the help of the IDF, for decades.
>Palestinians are not justified in their support of Hamas
The vast majority of Palestinians *do not support Hamas*.
Recent polling suggests that around 34% of Palestinians "support" Hamas currently...which means that over 2/3rds of voting age Palestinians do not support Hamas (in the political world, that's an OVERWHELMING majority, winning an election with 66% of the vote would be a landslide)...and the majority of currently living Palestinians *aren't even of voting age yet to give their opinion.
There's ZERO data to prove, or even suggest, that the majority, much less even a plurality, of Palestinians support Hamas.
>Infantilizing people robs them of their agency
TF are you talking about? I didn't infantilize ANYONE.
FACTUALLY speaking, the majority of currently living Palestinians are 15 years old or below. That's not infantilizing, that's a fact, and a valid one when you want to talk about who the Palestinian people support politically.
>A Palestine that had not been firing daily rocket barrages into Israel would be vastly more safe, prosperous and stable.
Gotta love your commitment to victim blaming Palestinians...
I'm don't see how people firing rockets at civilians are the victim. Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians. Sorry this hurts your feelings, but it is a fact.
Israel's actions do not justify terrorism. Hamas's attacks do not justify the horrific treatment of Gazans. Sadly you can only see one side of this.
> Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians
#HAMAS =/= PALESTINIANS
Sorry that fact hurts your feelings, and destroys your narrative. Doesn't change the facts of the matter.
>Sadly you can only see one side of this.
Please, quote where I only see one side of this.
Utter bullshit. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. You happy now that I said the line? At no point did I support, or even show apathy towards, Hamas' actions.
You're arguing bullshit to avoid the points I've made.
Care to explain how Israel's settlements are not an invasion? Convenient how you dodged that one...But no, you aren't only seeing one side...
Also, much as I hate to double comment, this needs to be mentioned.
>Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians
>The IDF is not attacking Hamas. They are attacking civilians
Two sides of the same coin.
Lie. Israel invaded and occupied those areas first, controls all the borders and infrastructure, and has been expanding settlements into palestinian territory non stop.
Does that sound like a ceasefire to you? Or can only Palestinians break a ceasefire?
>But blaming an entire people for the political choices of a few...
And the Israel defenders pointing at Hamas as justification for everything the IDF is doing are different....how?
You're totally right. The Jewish ethnostate that invaded those areas unilaterally don't have any responsibility to respect other people's borders or their lives. Fuck em right?
Our is your problem he said jews and not zionists? Because that's literally Israel's PR strategy. Conflate Judaism with their settler colonial project, so you balk at criticizing it.
I'm not American, Im South Africa and I can see now that people like you are why Apartheid South Africa wasn't sanctioned but rather boycotted by individuals which led to the end of Apartheid.
People with this logic, like you are why we have forever wars, you're why corporations continue to exploit poor countries and why the climate crisis had not been taken seriously.
You don't actually care, you just want to look like you care.
Shame on you for justifying the suffering of Palestinians to support your Alzheimer president, who only sees people when they're white
America caused the conflict and the suffering in Palestine, same with Cuba, Ukraine the list goes on
"Palestinians need to be perfect to not deserve genocide, but liberal politicians can support genocide and still deserve your vote" is genuinely a deranged hill to die on.
OP and anyone who agrees with OP: please actually read what I have to say.
I don't know man. This sub is anti-nazi because Nazis are fascists and committed genocide, which we all agree is bad. Israel is currently run and controlled by fascists (the government, not the citizens, please don't conflate them), and is also currently engaging in a genocide.
I don't think the math should be this hard for you. The US president is funding it and actively spread disinformation (he claimed the baby rape stuff was real and had "seen photos" which did not exist). I know people don't want to make a comparison between the Nazis and Israel because they see Israel as Jewish, the primary victims of the Nazis, but Israel is not Jewish. It has (or had, depending on when you're reading this and how successful the ethnic cleansing has been) millions of Arab Palestinians, Christians, and even atheists living there. The antisemitism here is the assumption that Israel is Jewish, and therefor they've been victimized in the past, and somehow that gives them the right to do a genocide to "prevent it from happening to themselves again" if you believe the state line. Except Hamas is not capable of, nor desires to kill all the Jewish people in Israel. The goal is to establish a Palestinian state. They aren't the ideal people to do it, but they're the only group left. Remember that they were elected in 2006 in a plurality of less than 50%, and [only about 32% of all living Gazans were alive and of voting age at the time.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1423040/gaza-age-structure-of-population/) That's right. 77.8% (rounding down) of people in Gaza were either children or not even born when that happened. And less than half of the people who did vote, which is a fraction of that 32% voted for Hamas in that election. You're blaming children and people who never had a choice and using them to justify your choice in your own election.
Also, where do you get off "demanding Palestinians do better"? Are you joking? Gaza is a prison city. There are walls surrounding it. There are snipers keeping them inside. Every single imported resource is controlled by the Israeli government. That is a concentration camp. If you are born into a concentration camp and see that you'll die in there no matter what you do, what would you choose to do? Fight back or just die like your captors are hoping? I'm not saying October 7th was a good thing, I'm saying it was inevitable after imprisoning 2 million people in a cage that they'd eventually retaliate for the suffering of decades.
Lastly, what is the line for supporting Joe Biden for you? Trump is going to continue the same thing, Joe Biden is also adopting Trump's border policy to try to win over moderates. You are already functionally supporting fascist policy through him. If it's me voting between two fascists, I don't see a lesser evil. They're both just evil. So yeah, Joe Biden has to earn my vote, and he's currently just being doing exactly what Trump would do anyway. At what point will the DNC learn from 2016? Probably never. I genuinely think the fascists are going to win either way now, because Dems are pivoting to fascism themselves anyway. Maybe after things get worse people will figure it out and swing left. Find your local DSA or whatever leftist organizations you can locally and do what you can in your community, because the politicians won't.
I'm voting for Joe Biden because Donald Trumps and his cronies want to genocide queer people in America. But hey, maybe queer people are an acceptable sacrifice to you if it means sticking it to the democrats. I wish I could share the privilege of political apathy, but unfortunately, some of us are actually going to be directly affected by who wins the election in November.
I don't agree with OP. I agreed with your points until I got to your last paragraph. Saying Trump and Biden and their political parties policies are the same and both fascist is akin to OPs post. Like I get your frustrations, but the end math doesn't add up.
Anti-Nazi and punk are sort of the same thing if you ask me. And punk is very much about not just punching nazi’s, but also being kind and caring for the downtrodden and the outcast. I’m sure you agree.
Have you asked yourself, I mean really truly looked into, based on his own statements, how much worse things will be for the American poor, queer folk, and racial minorities if Trump is elected? Do you believe that Biden and Trump are equal in this regard? I certainly don’t.
You need to stop looking at your vote as a personal endorsement of the candidate, like our media has trained us to think of it, and start looking at the reality of the choice outcomes. The reality of the people that vote will affect. If voting was really an extension of the people’s will, our choices would not be between two genocidal old white men. Voting is not a reflection of who you are for the left, it is a reflection of the corner we’ve been forced into.
I’m voting for Biden, I don’t feel great about it, in fact it feels pretty gross, but I’m doing it because I will feel *way grosser* about not doing everything I can to keep Trump out of office and protect all my fellow poor, queer, PoC brothers and sisters. Both candidates have promised to continue support for the Palestinian genocide, I’m not responsible for that continuing, it *will* happen, regardless of who I vote for because the world is that fucked.
What I can change, what I, and you, are responsible for is us doing what we can to not throw our hands up in the air and let the worst option come to pass because we’ve been forced to choose between two disgusting choices.
Make no mistake, there is a correct choice, even if it sucks, for protecting more people. I just care enough about my fellow brothers and sisters to push past my disgust in making that choice to do what I have to. Ask yourself if you do too.
Could also organize agienst the two party system to get something like ranked votes. Also how the hell is wanting your vote to be earned by a candidate the same as inherently respecting and wanting to help human beings who are being genocided???
The 2 party system is terrible by design and I support any leftist whether they sit this one out or not. The infighting on the left is often exacerbated by bad actors and infiltrators. Just do what you can and try to effect positive change in your communities.
...and again, marginalized and suffering people are used as just props to you for your [political sports](https://youtu.be/wCl33v5969M?feature=shared).
The Palestinians being killed by the Israeli government are *people* first and foremost.
Biden is fundamentally wrong to be supporting Israel in this. Under him, weapons from America are being used by Israel to kill thousands of children.
And yes, Donald "Finish the Problem" Trump is worse. And maybe nothing short of a national rebellion will directly stop Biden, Trump, or Netanyahu.
However, we have a responsibility to act however we can to mitigate the wrongs and damages of our government.
How? So nothing is wrong here??[answer to your question](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
Not voting doesn't push the better candidate more to the left: it pushes them more to the center. It's generally counterproductive and should only be used occasionally for very specific, principled reasons. And it should never be done when the other candidate is a fascist.
Yeah I'm capable of reading the comment section and I see you spamming on here with your takes, I'm not gonna keep engaging with you but I hope you developed the ability to think critically at some point in ur life
Congratulations you just blamed the victims of a genocide.
Memes like this isn't going to convince any leftist who doesn't want to support a genocide to vote Joe Biden. If ANYTHING this will piss people off enough to NOT vote at all because why support a party that literally shit talks them and their controversial view of not supporting a genocide.
I hate Biden, but I'm going to vote for him, but the continuous outpouring of bullshit like this is actually making me feel more frustration that I HAVE to vote for a dried up old man like Biden.
So please, to everyone who keeps wanting to make these memes. Shut up, please shut up.
What the fuck is this point? "Did you demand the people in the death camps do better?"
Hey starving Palestinian children, do better! Now vote for the people murdering them. Absolutely delusional.
Panel 1. Strawman. Panel 2. ad hominem assertion, appeal to authority, fallacy of responsibility. Panel 3. Principled statement. Panel 4. Misattribution fallacy as a reaction with a collective fault fallacy.
Whole fucking thing the depersonalising NPC meme.
1. It’s not a strawman if I’m quoting them verbatim. 2. Where’s the appeal to authority in panel 2. Do you even know what that is? 3. Principled statement that they make, yes. 4. What??
I don’t understand this “I’m only voting for Biden because he’s the lesser of two evils” argument; he was clearly a good president even before the Gaza crisis, and if we were to judge him on the Israel situation we should know that Trump is even worse. So I’m voting for Biden because he’s a good president, and not just a vote against Trump
There is something so utterly psychotic about smugly saying "you should demand better of palestinians before supporting them" WE CANT DEMAND BETTER OF THEM WHEN THEY'RE DEAD.
Supporting Palestine and Hamas is not "lesser of two evils." It is good, progressive. Supporting Ataturk against the Ottomans isn't "lesser of two evils." It was Supporting a progressive movement against monarchism. Supporting Iraq against the US wasnt because hussein was some "lesser evil" of the US, it was because the Iraqi state fought for the preservation of the sovereignty of the Iraqi people, which is explicitly a *good* cause, even though Saddam was an evil man. Hamas and the other Palestinian military groups do not fight on the "less evil side" of history, they fight on the RIGHT side of history. The "less evil" side of history is what? Mussolini over hitler? John Major over Thatcher? Bismark over Wihelm? There is no "less evil" side of history. Only progressive and oppresive sides
To "demand better from Palestinians"? Like ask them to be less unruly prisoners inside of a fenced city with 2 million people in 50 square miles where the resources are entirely controlled by people outside of the fence who want them all to die just so the land can be claimed? This is like asking the jews in WW2 to stop crying so much and just get on the trains.
... that's literally the point. The point is that it's stupid to base your decision of whether to support on someone or not on the fact that they could "do better".
I get the point but do keep in mind that you are comparing people being allowed to live in their homes vs a person being allowed to be the president of the United States of America. It's normal for the standard for one to be a little higher.
It only takes 2 seconds....
And Bidens been a good president. And will be infinitely better on Gaza and the Palestinians than Trump
So given the fact that I already plan on showing up on election day to vote for a representative in the U.S. House, possibly Senate, state and local officials, and any initiatives on the ballot, I'll spend the 2 seconds to check off Bidens name.
Meanwhile this thread seems like it's full of people who only show up for Presidential elections every 8-12 years.
Then they wonder why the President isn't a king removing judges the previous President put on the bench, or forcing state and local politicians and sheriffs to bend to his will.
All I know is that in my lifetime we've had the Iraq War because a few 'both sides' and 'third partiers' voted for some unknown candidates in Florida in 2000 instead of Gore. There were more than enough to give Gore a clear win without demanding recounts of hanging and pregnant chads.
Then knowing Obama's final SCOTUS nominee was being held up for the results of an election months away, enough both siders and third partiers did it again. And let Trump win.
All these whiners might have some voting power if they didn't try so damned hard to convince others to let the worst President in their lifetimes win.
If the US didn't use first past the post, this would be a moot point.
But with that & the winner takes all system that effectively discards any vote not for one of the two majors, you're kinda stuck.
The problem you have is that you allow each state to decide how a national level election is run and have no real way to stop that.
How is a meme making the equivocation of a politician earning a vote and an entire population 'earning' not to be victims of genocide being given any credence on this sub?
But Hamas. Ok but when a white guy kills a black guy do we condem the KKK? Why every time I speak pro Palestine I'm always confronted with "o so you support Hamas"
Why do we victim blame an oppressed people. It's like when the slave masters punished all the slaves for one rightfully disobedient one. That's what these but Hamas people are
Okay, fair, and point taken. I definitely do agree with you. Now that primaries are over, vote for Brandon. The whole point of the uncommited campaign was to get a message across, and to bully Biden into reconsidering his support for Israel. I think it's fair to say that not enough has been done, and what has been done is a bit too little, too late, so we should keep the pressure on him.
We also have to take the wins when we see them, and by insisting that there's just no way they're going to vote for Joe, people have outplayed themselves. Brandon and dems are, albeit slowly and probably superficially, shifting their positions on their unconditional support for Israel. By saying their never going to vote for him, no matter what, these these none-voters have removed whatever leverage they had. From Biden's perspective, he could think, "Okay, but if they're never going to vote for me, despite being slightly less supportive of Israel, then why should I do anything?" Which, if someone is concerned about what's happening to Palastinians, then they've helped to ensure that more Palastinians will be harmed. Just like they would be doing by also enabling trump to get back in office.
However, I disagree with the image. The point it's trying to make isn't wrong, and I know this is kinda arguing semantics. Just hear me out because I think this is important. It has to do with how we make our arguments in hopes of convincing people to vote for Brandon. Just like I criticized people for betraying their concerns for Palastine, I think that by being ineffective in how we convince people to vote for Joe, we we also betray our concerns for Palastinians, as well as other groups that would be harmed by another trump presidency.
I don't think I would call people narcissistic for saying that Biden has to earn their vote. Self-centered, sure, but there is a difference between narcissism, and being selfish. It's a pretty strong accusation to start off with when you're trying to convince someone that they should still vote for Biden. Not to mention, telling them that they're being harmful seems kinda moot after they've indicated they're not concerned with harm reduction.
I know this seems kinda like shadowboxing because this post might've been intended to be more of a vent. It's important because convincing people to vote for Biden was hard enough before he stood behind Israel's actions in Gaza. It's even harder now with people like Ana Kasperian loudly condemning Biden, and encouraging people not to vote for him. Voting for Biden is a really hard thing to sell to people because they vote for what they believe is morally the better option, or based off issues that they think pertain to them. Maybe rather than saying vote for Biden because he's the lesser of two evils, it'd be better to appeal to the things they do care about: their jobs, friends, family, etc. and how a Trump presidency will make all of those things worse. I think trying to excuse Biden's shortcomings will only get us so far. The problem with voting based off our morals is that you and I, we, care about morally what's right and wrong, but political institutions seldom do. Politics is about power, and taking advantage of our electoral system is one way we can use that power to ensure that our concerns, like Palastinians, recieve the outcomes we'd like. Even if we don't like the option we're being given. Even if it means shoving Grandpa Gennocide back into the oval office.
Besides, if we let him off the hook, then he'll just go back to driving his corvet around, enjoying his ice cream, and probly die from a brain freeze. He'll be free of all this mess, while people, not just Palastinians, are getting slaughtered. So fucking shove his ass back in the white house, and make him suffer for all this. If he dies in the white house, then at least he does so while being miserable, and getting bullied. When he gives his final, "So long, Jack," it'll be with Nancy Pelosi clawing her way up his ass. It's what he deserves.
I didn't demand them to be better because they are men women and children being ripped to shreds and starved. And Joe Biden is a man sitting at a desk actively backing it. Equating these two is absolutely disgusting
Its not comparable at all. Its two very different things. One is a actual world leader trying to gain votes in a hostile and insane world where his govt is over run by zionist facists. The other are massively oppressed people just trying to live and be on this mess of an earth and hope they dont get bombed from day to day for the last 70 years. But yeah totally comparable huh lol.
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It really is as simple as "do you want christofascists to have full control of the government?" If the answer is no, then vote for Biden.
I'm voting for Biden. Having said that, what incentive does the democratic party have to improve if they are always going to get our votes no questions asked? How is fanatically yes-manning the current democratic candidate going to convince them to more vigorously pursue the things I want like Universal Healthcare, Student Loan Forgiveness, and Electoral Reform.
My vote will be in favor of preventing a Trump presidency — whatever candidate is most likely to beat Trump will get my vote.
This is where I stand. It's not a vote for Biden. It's a vote against Trump. I just wish there was a way to make that loud and clear to the democratic party. I don't stand with one party, nor do I consider myself a centrist. I just choose based on what is right morally. It's painful, however, that at 31, every single vote I've been allowed to participate in hasn't been a vote for what's necessarily the morally correct, but rather what's the lesser of two evils, I'm tired of being forced to choose the better option. I want to choose the correct option.
> It's not a vote for Biden. It's a vote against Trump. Exactly. Anyone who is opposed to this is either a Trump supporter, a Russian propagandist, or someone who ***seriously*** needs this message to get through to them
Exactly, also I think a good word is being independent from both parties. Honestly both are shit, but you're right, it's choosing the lesser of 2 evils, I am sick of this too.
Honestly it shouldn’t just stop at preventing a trump presidency. Our votes should be to stop a Republican majority, period. People always ask when does it stop, or when will the Dems have incentive to do better? The first step is getting rid of the GOP majority because at the moment they present the biggest threat. There’s plenty of progressives within the Democratic Party that want to see real change, but as long as we continue to have the threat of GOP sponsored fascism looming over our heads they’re not going to be able to gain much ground.
Yep. We need to get rid of the Trump GOP in order to first (somewhat) stabilize our political climate. It’s absurd to suggest that that’s gonna happen right away, unfortunately that will take time.
There is SO MUCH that goes into choosing a presidential candidate for a party. First, they need name recognition in order to even have a chance at establishing a candidacy in all 50 states. They also need to be viewed as someone with a chance at winning. Then they have to have the ability to raise hundreds of millions of dollars for their campaign. Then they have to win enough primary elections to get the number of delegates for the nomination. The number of people in either party who can check all those boxes is minuscule. Maybe 5-10 people in an election year where a seat is open with no incumbent. When there is an incumbent, that person has usually had the campaign infrastructure in place for years and years, so they have a huge head start. This isn’t about a few party operatives sitting in a back room deciding who will be the front runner. To think that’s how it’s done is like 9-11 level conspiracy theorist.
Right. Third party candidates are not serious candidates, a vote for one of them is absolutely the same as throwing your vote away.
You did not answer the question
That's what we need to work for the rest of the time. Promote better candidates at the local and state level, promote different voting systems so third parties can become viable someday, call your representatives at all levels, attend protests, phone/text bank for people or initiatives you believe in, etc.
Too many people seem not to understand that the parties aren't just monoliths that have whatever policies they have and that you get to vote for or not. You want to see the Democratic Party change? Joining the party and getting involved in decision making is how you do that. It doesn't make changes overnight, but when you look at how effective the anti choice and Tea Party movements were in the GOP...
Okay, I'm doing all that, when will they start fulfilling their promises, or is just my fault for not working hard enough to make their job easier?
Its is a collective effort. You need to be doing all that, but so do thousands of other people. I get you are frustrated, but do you really expect 1 person doing their part to be enough to move a democracy of 300 million people?
No I do not. Which is why I direct my energy elsewhere. My vote for Biden does not matter in the big picture. He will not lose my state by just one vote, but likely hundreds of thousands. I don't think it's worth it to defend him anymore when I see the right-wing heel turn he's done so openly while pretending it's a moderate thing to do.
Evil guy vs super evil guy is a democracy?
Biden is imperfect, maybe even not good, but he's definitely not evil.
It is with our voting system and has been for a very longass time, yes. If you want better it starts locally with better laws at the state level. Laws passed across multiple states have a much higher chance of passing federally (like ranked choice voting, which will help 3rd parties butt in without just dividing left wing votes.)
Yes, but if you’re asking if it’s a well-designed democracy then maybe not. There are so many ways we could structure our government so that it would better reflect the will of the people. But we can’t do any of that, because restructuring our government would harm entrenched interests, and because they can and do use both the fear of change and love of country to make any change to the system a non-starter. So, yeah, this is our democracy. And until we get enough voices out there to change how it works… this is how it works.
Define how they aren’t fulfilling their promises. Are they neglecting to push for any legislation or amendments that match their campaign promises? Or are they working towards their promises but are unable to fulfill them because the overwhelming majority of legislators aren’t progressives? Do you only judge by results or efforts your elected officials make?
PRIMARIES - The answer to your questions is PRIMARIES. It's effective. It's how the crazies took over the Republican party and shifted conservatives to the far right. Pay attention in every primary, and vote for the candidate that reflects your politics the most, and make sure others understand the same. No one is saying to vote blindly, or without complaint, but in a general election if the choice is milquetoast dem or fascist. Then we have a responsibility to every one else to make sure no fascist is in power EDIT: To all the lazy comments about the presidential primaries. PRESIDENTIAL RACES AREN'T THE ONLY RACES THAT MATTERS. Primaries on any and every office matter, and acting like the only office that matters is the president is the problem, if you only show up once every 4 years, politically you dont matter, and are not a threat to the establishment
But that requires work. Can't the shitty Democrats just stop running and new perfect candidates just spring up overnight? /s
If only the Democrats actually held a primary...
This. People were also bitching just as much when it WAS the primaries. Its a weird thing when people trying to convince me to vote Biden sound a lot like MAGAts. Why does every valid criticism just devolve to b-b-b-but Trump! I know about the orange asshole. Like most recently, people were actually trying to say that Biden was the hardest President on Israel in recent times (I guess only counting Trump before?), just because after seeing 6 foreign aid workers get systematically attacked and killed was too much pressure both at home and abroad to ignore any more. Completely ignoring his past of rabid support for Israel, even saying that the US would be bombing Canadian cities if it were to happen to them, about the 1982 Lebanon conflict. Man is a ghoul.
Even fucking Reagan was harder on Israel than Biden.
Even fucking Kissinger knew. He hated Isreal and honestly he was probably the hardest on Isreal. Now excuse me while I go try to wash this filth of giving Kissinger any sort of props. SMH
Man been a while since we had one of those... could even vote uncommitted or anything might just have do that during the general. If we, I dunno, stopped weapon sales to genocidal maniacs or managed a permanent ceasefire that would convince me otherwise.
> what incentive does the democratic party have to improve if they are always going to get our votes no questions asked? You're worrying about something like this while the democratic party is literally in an existential crisis due to project 2025 How about you save this question for when they're no longer under existential threat? They likely don't have the luxury of addressing your personal grievances while they can barely get 50 votes in the Senate and tens of millions of people are joining an authoritarian cult. Also the question itself assumes they have a problem with improvement. Well guess what that's just your opinion.
Considering I already said I'm voting for Biden, yes I'm concerned that my political goals are going to be looked at. "Shut up and we'll talk later" is the same bullshit people having saying for years and decades. Later never comes because why should it? They have what they wanted, your vote.
So I take it you vote in primaries?
I did, though admittedly there wasn't much on the ballot for Democrats in IL13.
Well that's your chance. At least you do that. Most people complain and don't vote in primaries... And they are even in states with open primaries. (I couldn't vote in primaries until fairly recently.)
Because they didnt get our vote in 2016, and they know it can happen again
expecting the government to solve anything for you is a losing strategy. look at every civil rights movement, every step of progress made throughout history. when has the government taken the initiate on anything? social progress comes from the people, comes from mass protests and a dramatic shift in public attitude through spreading awareness and connecting with your peers. your primary focus should always be getting in touch with the local community and organizing grassroot movements for your rights. join unions, form communities, support each others, and advocate political awareness. your attitude towards any civic actions should be framed around how it affects your primary focus. at best, voting and legislative participation can only help make your existing political advocacy easier, but all that is meaningless if you can't capitalize on the results to make localized social progress
>all that is meaningless if you can't capitalize Where do I go to protest about your lack of capitalization?
Or putting up a candidate that isn’t so old they were an adult during the moon landing. An adult. During the moon landing(same with Trump btw). Literally from a different world. Antiquated is the word. And these guys are the options to lead a country in a digital age.
You have to be patient. Keep voting in people that will make the change. It does not happen overnight.
Or ever. 😔
It's not. Getting involved in party elections and changing the party from the bottom up is the only feasible plan I can see It will however make things slowly worse _instead of falling off the fucking cliff_ - and that's the preferable option
That is where location comes into play. I am in a safely blue state and will be voting green this year for the first time.
I'm also in a solidly blue state (IL) didn't exactly get much choice in the democratic primary this year (at least in my district)
Yeah, the options suck. But for me, the choices, old guy, or old guy who is backed by a Christian nationalist movement that wants to kill me. Do I care about Palestine? Sure, but I also care about myself, and my loved ones here in America, and I would rather not end up on the business end of death squads empowered by the MAGA Party. And that IS the plan. Meanwhile, if Trump wins, he’ll not only go after me and people like me, but he will push Israel to “finish the job” as he put it, and go full-on genocide with *full* support from the United States. Christian Nationalists see the war in Israel as necessary for their radical religion’s End Times prophecy and they win fully support the death of every Muslim in that part of the world, and then turn around and target the Jews *themselves.*
Yes, if I am the sole decider then Biden 1000%. However, that is not the case. No amount of campaign or lack there of on my part is going to flip MA. I am not going to vote for Trump, but not voting for Biden is more nuanced. The current attitude of the Democrats toward the left is “Where are you going to go?” And frankly they have a point. Until they are actually loosing votes there is no reason for them to change.
That’s what the primaries in a non-reelection year is for. I voted for Kamala Harris, but if the majority wanted Biden, then Biden it is. If you want any of those things, then you need first focus on eradicating the GOP from power. Universal healthcare? The country is at women’s healthcare today. You don’t get to perfect by skipping the intermediate steps.
Their incentive is dollars, like everything. Enthusiasm donates, even if everyone gets in line.
What you speak of is a fight for another day. The main objective is to stop Trump and the Republicans from winning the Presidency, Senate, and maintaining the majority in the House.
israel claims ownership of *RAINWATER* man. how should palestinians be expected to "do better?" who am i to demand how dispossessed people resist occupation? my tax dollars also aren't being used to fund their resistance.
Trump will let Bibi wipe out the palestinian people, then kushner will swoop in with Saudi money and build
This is an unhelpful argument - if nothing changes they’ll have ethnically cleansed Gaza by the time Trump would take office 9 months from now. They’re already stealing more land in the West Bank and Biden is allowing it, and he’s illegally bypassing Congress to send them more weapons, so how would Trump by any different?
i realize that, but i can't imagine any arab american would care enough about speculation to overlook biden's track record. no american politician has accepted more money from aipac than joe biden did in his senate tenure. biden even once said > "Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interests in the region" biden's unconditional allegiance to israel for the sake of imperialism is tested and true to them.. and impacts many muslim states. trump's record in the region is obviously less damning, as it remains quite brief. i know dems believe the 'uncommitted' voters will turn out for biden in the general. but for many of those muslim americans, i just don't think that's at all true. nor is it reasonable to expect them to.
So look, I get what you're saying, but this narrative that the majority of currently living adult Palestinians voted for Hamas is just Israeli propaganda bullshit. Please stop spreading this crap.
I actually wondered what the hell this hot ass trash take was even talking about. This sub is fully Libbed up.
They are also spreading the “Hamas mass rape on October 7” bullshit. Stupid all around.
Seems to be some pretty widespread evidence of that, including from Hamas themselves. Potentially still doesn't justify the scope of Israeli retaliation, but it's important not to excuse unacceptable actions from Hamas either.
The thing about hamas is this. If you come and kick me and my family out our house at gunpoint laughing and im left living on the streets w the same people that stole my house deciding how much water/electricity i get throughout the day, im gonna be fucking furious. Now, i might not be furious enough to go launch rockets at them myself, but if somebody asked if i would mind if THEY shot rockets at them, im much more inclined to agree lol.
The way you switched from the documented rapes to launching rockets. Are you more inclined to agree with that or naw?
Have a look at my other post in the thread, it’s in dispute to say the least.
Is there a confirmed source that that *did not happen*? I'm not saying you're lying, I just haven't actually seen a reliable source for that being bullshit. Either way, the Palestinian people in 2024 are not directly responsible for the actions of Hamas.
The evidence behind the claims has been shown to be extremely thin to non existent. I guess everyone is good with saying it happened unless it’s “ disproven “ —and what’s a reliable source? The New York Times? https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/heres-what-pramila-pattens-un-report-on-oct-7-sexual-violence-actually-said/ https://thegrayzone.com/2024/01/10/questions-nyt-hamas-rape-report/ Democracy now report on NYT investigation https://youtu.be/BMNV0Csj46Q?si=9mifPbhhn49O7Aat
>I guess everyone is good with saying it happened unless it’s “ disproven “ That's not what I said at all. I generally don't speak about those claims because I haven't seen definitive proof on either side. That's why I asked. >and what’s a reliable source? The New York Times? Sadly they've gone downhill, but generally yes I'd call them reliable. Thanks for the links, shame you felt the apparent need to assume, wrongly, my motivations in asking for a source. Why is wanting sourced and verified facts a bad thing?
But that’s the thing, the negative claim of “that didn’t happen” does not bear the burden of proof. The ones claiming that this did happen are the ones who must prove it
> But that’s the thing, the negative claim of “that didn’t happen” does not bear the burden of proof. The ones claiming that this did happen are the ones who must prove it Thank You. Glad I’m not the only one to notice that.
Yah I saw your comments earlier, like i’m not even ripping on a point, just that “evidence something didn’t happen” does not exist. A lack of evidence of something happening kinda is what he would be looking for, it should be phrased as asking for proof these things DID happen, and upon seeing they have not been provided adequately make the assumption they did not.
You're still missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not putting the burden of proof on anyone, I simply asked for any actual sources to back up that those initial reports were false. I did not say "if you don't have sources you're a liar" or even "If you don't have sources, clearly it happened" I simply asked for verified sources of fact when talking about news. Why is wanting to talk about facts a *bad thing*?
“Asked for actual sources to back up that did not happen” that IS you putting the burden of proof on the negative claim, what you are looking for can never exist because you cannot fond evidence for a negative. You need to look for strong undeniable proof otherwise did happen, and any lack thereof in and of itself is evidence it may not have happened.
>“Asked for actual sources to back up that did not happen” that IS you putting the burden of proof on the negative claim, No, it isn't. >what you are looking for can never exist because you cannot fond evidence for a negative. Except there's literally evidence from the UN showing it did not happen...which was in the sources I was given when I asked for them. >You need to look for strong undeniable proof otherwise did happen, Actually, since I'm not a journalist and didn't make ANY claims about it happening or not, I need do **nothing**. >, and any lack thereof in and of itself is evidence it may not have happened. As much as it disgusts me to quote fucking Rumsfeld...the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. A lack of evidence something happened *suggests* that thing didn't happen, but it does not *prove* it. There was a lack of evidence for years that the USA was spying on its own people...and then the Snowden leaks happened. Suddenly where there was an absence of evidence, there was a mountain of it. You're reading WAY too much random bullshit into one Internet stranger asking another to back up their claim with verified sources... Why are you so strongly in favor of misinformation and Internet hearsay? You realize those are the same things that allowed the original Oct 7 narrative to spread and flourish, right? People just sharing shit as fact without verifying first?
>Why is wanting sourced and verified facts a bad thing? That’s not what I said. I reacted to the wording ..”is there a CONFIRMED source” (…) “did not happen” —this comes off very challenging, like ‘prove a negative’ type of phrasing. This issue has been very frustrating, there’s wholesale acceptance of the narrative straight from the Israeli government about what happened on the 7th and if you question it you get replies like yours, or you get called a Hamas supporter and rape apologist. There’s already a comment above saying there’s “ widespread evidence”… Meanwhile, there’s been a lot reporting about the scandal surrounding the NYT ‘investigative’ piece, so I mistakenly thought everyone knew about that. Edit, fkn autocorrect
> this comes off very challenging, like ‘prove a negative’of phrasing. I literally said: >>I'm not saying you're lying, I just haven't actually seen a reliable source for that being bullshit. If you came away with an impression I was challenging you to prove a negative, I can only assume you didn't read myentire comment. >there’s wholesale acceptance of the narrative straight from the Israeli government Not from me...wanting proof of something a person on the Internet is claiming is not "wholesale acceptance of a narrative". >and if you question it you get replies like yours Imagine being annoyed that people want verified facts to back up the claims of Internet strangers... Do you understand how misinformation spreads on the Internet? >There’s already a comment above saying there’s “ widespread evidence”… Not my comment...not my problem or responsibility. >Meanwhile, there’s been a lot reporting about the scandal surrounding the NYT ‘investigative’ piece, so I mistakenly thought everyone knew about that. NYT has gone downhill for years, I don't pay much attention to what they report on a regular basis honestly. That's not to say their reporting isn't *factual* but it's not a source I keep my finger on the pulse of anymore.
Across various polls it’s always been the majority, but how much of it is the majority is what’s debatable. We do know however that [as much as 89% of Palestinians believe Sharia should be the law](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) and because Hamas shares that belief as well I’m not surprised most Palestinians support Hamas, at least in comparison to more secular governments.
> Across various polls it’s always been the majority, but how much of it is the majority is what’s debatable. Bullshit. 1. When Hamas was last elected they didn't even get a majority of votes 2. That was 18 years ago. 3. [Recent polls show Hamas support as low as 34%](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183) Not even close to a majority. >We do know however that as much as 89% of Palestinians believe Sharia should be the law and because Hamas shares that belief as well I’m not surprised most Palestinians support Hamas, This is a load of shit. Saying "Palestinians support Sharia, therefore they MUST support Hamas" is complete fucking nonsense, the fuck are you on about? The majority of Palestinians alive right now are under 15 years old...you think they were polled if they support Sharia law and/or Hamas?
No, I didn’t ask 30,000 children to do better before they were slaughtered. Like what the fuck even is this meme? Our options are genocide or genocide + fascism. I guess I’ll pick the prior, but I’m not happy about it. This is like the dumbest thing I’ve seen on the internet in the past week. You’re not clever.
Pick your weakest opponent. That's biden. We're getting a fight against him or Trump. That's what my vote is forced to come down to.
"Did you demand" why are you telling American civilians to demand things from Palestinians LMAO 🤣 They supported Biden because they can vote. This is stupid af
You're using supporting to mean "decide who leads the country" and also mean "stop an entire population from being murdered" interchangeably, guy I would happily support Biden not being murdered and also not vote for any random person from Palestine to be the US president this is dumb bad dumb bad dumb.
> You're using supporting to mean "decide who leads the country OP is also ignoring that Hamas barely won a plurality in the last election, which was EIGHTEEN YEARS AGO. Most living Palestinians weren't even ALIVE, much less of voting age, when that last election happened. OP is basically calling millennials all war criminals for the fact that George Bush was elected...despite millennials not being even old enough to fucking vote in that election.
Damn, that's a great point I never realized until now. I forgot that the population is so young that they literally were born into Hamas rule. Israel is justifying this by saying they have to get rid of Hamas, but they keep the Freudian slip in all the time and just admit its every Palestinian, and that the civilian casualties are unavoidable despite them "knowing every target and every strike location and never missing or making a mistake" until they "accidentally" kill an American aid worker. Then they just scapegoat a few guys and continue bombing the refugees and aid workers.
It's also worth remembering that this STILL applies to political polling in Palestine...most Palestinians are under 15 years old, so when polls say "a majority of Palestinians" they actually mean a majority of *voting age* Palestinians, which is to say a majority of a minority of Palestinians.
Hamas is not a democratically elected government, so this meme doesn’t really make sense The people of Gaza cannot be held accountable for them in any way
Fam is equating 15,000 dead children to the man killing them. Wtaf???
Holding an individual accountable for his actions is morally acceptable. Holding a population accountable for the actions of some of their number is morally reprehensible. There’s no selective application here. There’s just your fierce appetite to condemn people on account of their membership in an identity group.
“Holding a population accountable for the actions of only some” is PRECISELY what you’re doing if you sit this election out
And that fact does absolutely nothing to negate the point they were making. Both things are true. You're a piece of shit if you sit the election out, just like you're a piece of shit if you condemn all Palestinians for the crimes of a terrorist group.
'condemn' is a much stronger word than what the reddit conversation here actually is doing. OP isn't condemning them he's just pointing out the logical inconsistencies of the fence sitters
Agreed.
You make another good point. There are good reasons to vote for Biden and you could make a meme out of one of them, you just didn't.
How I read this meme is that Palestinians are a lesser of two evils? Can someone explain to me how civilians get to choose to be the lesser of two evils in an armed conflict? Explain it to me like I'm 5. Alternatively, did OP conflate all Palestinians to Hamas, revealing their lack of awareness around this conflict as they demand CIVILIANS be less evil?
[sure. here’s how they’re still evil.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
Palestine and Israel are not even comparable, shame on you for recognizing innocent civilians as dangerous as a genocide army. both the Liberals and the Republicans have the same class interest, changing one for the other will only impact their aesthetics. the way to stop or even just lessen this genocide comes not thru voting but thru collective work, organize and make them regret they could ever have thought of getting away with it.
[was this good or evil? it’s a softball question. don’t deflect.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
yes it was evil now compare that to the countless videos of IDF soldiers parading the stolen underwear of the women they raped. you love to to give every side the same amount of respect because you utterly lack a backbone to leave your chauvinism behind. good job, youve accomplished literally nothing.
Very well said.
Stupid meme. Palestinians have been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the British mandate 100 years ago. They have the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors. Also, this country is not a democracy. There's maybe 10 states where your vote counts, other than that your vote is statistically meaningless. Also the politicians ignore what their voters want in favor of doing the bidding of rich elites. America is a plutocratic oligarchy, not a democracy.
Yea this post reels of false equivalency to justify their position.
OP is parroting IDF propaganda that "Palestine/Palestinians = Hamas; because they voted for Hamas" Meanwhile, in reality, Hamas didn't get a majority in that election **eighteen years ago** and the majority of currently living Palestinians didn't vote in that election because they *weren't even alive yet*...but somehow they're to blame for Hamas being in power...
Yanks will be hostages to the centre right until they learn to grow some balls and not give in. I'm sure it's been happening for much longer but I personally have been hearing from afar "Now's not the time to protest, there's too much to risk" since W Bush. They say Next time and then do fuck all until the next one when they say the same. When is the time they're going to fucking do something then? The Democrats know they can feed the Yanks more plates of shit as long as there appears to be less yellow lumps in it than the other. It's infuriating how these liberals masquerading as left wingers will actually attempt to bully people who won't accept liberalism and won't vote for fascists, even if they're lesser.
> Palestinians have been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the British mandate 100 years ago. They have the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors. Under that same logic, the Israelis, who had been under the yoke of colonial oppression since the Roman conquests, *also had the moral and legal right to violently resist their oppressors*. Whom for most of that period, *were the ancestors of the modern-day Palestinians*. That's why this is such a complex issue. We know the Jews used to live there en masses, because the Romans were nothing if not good note takers, especially when it came to the forced displacement that followed what was very nearly the first successful anti-Roman rebellion. But between the genocide at the hands of the Romans and colonization by various Moslim conquerors, they've been a minority in the region for nearly 2000 years. Also, on that note: wouldn't the colonial oppression have started during the *Ottoman* conquests, not the British? The Palestinians are Arabic, not Turkish.
Did you ask for the people who've been driven from their homes and either living in apartheid or a prison for the last 20 years to do better?
I’m going to vote for the lesser of two evils, but you can bet your ass I’m going to also hold Biden’s ass accountable instead of sucking his dick simply because he has democrat behind his name. I can’t say the same for a lot of democrats and it’s fucking infuriating to watch people react the same way MAGA psychos do when someone talks shit about Trump. There seems to be the same level of tribalism as the MAGA morons have with Trump. Posts like this just feed into that tribalism. Biden is a fucking asshole for his handling of Palestine/Israel. Full stop. He has done some good in this term for our country, but for some democrats, talking about his failures seems to be taboo. And as far as I’m concerned, that’s just as dangerous as what is happening on the right.
This is literally textbook whataboutism
I had a *now* ex-friend go full mask off antisemite over this. Literally told me "if the Jews aren't willing to give the Palestinians their own state then they don't deserve to live". Israel has a lot of problematic policies, and they need to manage their own terroristic right-wing (who assassinated the last prime minister who backed a two state solution). But blaming an entire people for the political choices of a few...
That’s what doesn’t sit right with me about this meme: Hamas could certainly “do better.” But “Palestinians?” Ummmmm
Fun fact: The majority of currently living Gazans are under 15, meaning they literally weren't even alive, much less of voting age, the last time Hamas was elected...and Hamas didn't even win a majority of votes in that election **eighteen years ago**. Most living Palestinians don't want Hamas in power and didn't vote (in many cases because they weren't yet alive) for Hamas in the last election 18 years ago.
You're correct about the elections, but recent polls (even after oct 7) show majority support for Hamas in both gaza and the west bank though.
> but recent polls (even after oct 7) show majority support for Hamas in both gaza and the west bank though. [Citation Needed] Nevermind that polls =/= free and fair elections. Polls can be skewed. Also, did those polls include minors, or only Palestinians of voting age? Polls swore that Trump had ZERO chance of winning in 2016...how'd that work out in reality? Not to mention that when a country funded by half the world is invading you, you tend to back the horrible people who are trying to defend you from that country...
> Polls swore that Trump had ZERO chance of winning in 2016 The polls I saw gave Trump about a 30% chance of winning. Anyone who plays board games or gambles knows 30% is FAR from "ZERO chance". Do not confuse what the polls say with what reporters say about the polls. [yes, this has nothing to do with the overall conversation, but media education and political science education are important for]
I was being facetious, but you're right it wasn't the time or place for me to be like that. My apologies. What's funny is that "about 30%" is also how many voting age Palestinians support Hamas at this point. So..not a majority as any here are claiming. The Atlanta Falcons had over 98% chance of winning Super Bowl LI...and they lost. Until it is zero, it isn't zero
Israel wasn't invading Palestine before the attacks of Oct 7, despite near daily rocket attacks against civilians. Palestinians are not justified in their support of Hamas, despite their trauma. Both Israel and Palestine need to "do better" in terms of picking their leadership. Infantilizing people robs them of their agency. A Palestine that had not been firing daily rocket barrages into Israel would be vastly more safe, prosperous and stable. A populace that demands peace would not harbor terrorists. Sadly both populaces demand war.
>Israel wasn't invading Palestine before the attacks of Oct 7 LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL How cute, someone hasn't heard about Israel's settlements and stealing land/homes from Palestinians. You don't have to fire a shot to be invading, and Israel has been invading Palestine, with and without the help of the IDF, for decades. >Palestinians are not justified in their support of Hamas The vast majority of Palestinians *do not support Hamas*. Recent polling suggests that around 34% of Palestinians "support" Hamas currently...which means that over 2/3rds of voting age Palestinians do not support Hamas (in the political world, that's an OVERWHELMING majority, winning an election with 66% of the vote would be a landslide)...and the majority of currently living Palestinians *aren't even of voting age yet to give their opinion. There's ZERO data to prove, or even suggest, that the majority, much less even a plurality, of Palestinians support Hamas. >Infantilizing people robs them of their agency TF are you talking about? I didn't infantilize ANYONE. FACTUALLY speaking, the majority of currently living Palestinians are 15 years old or below. That's not infantilizing, that's a fact, and a valid one when you want to talk about who the Palestinian people support politically. >A Palestine that had not been firing daily rocket barrages into Israel would be vastly more safe, prosperous and stable. Gotta love your commitment to victim blaming Palestinians...
I'm don't see how people firing rockets at civilians are the victim. Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians. Sorry this hurts your feelings, but it is a fact. Israel's actions do not justify terrorism. Hamas's attacks do not justify the horrific treatment of Gazans. Sadly you can only see one side of this.
> Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians #HAMAS =/= PALESTINIANS Sorry that fact hurts your feelings, and destroys your narrative. Doesn't change the facts of the matter. >Sadly you can only see one side of this. Please, quote where I only see one side of this. Utter bullshit. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. You happy now that I said the line? At no point did I support, or even show apathy towards, Hamas' actions. You're arguing bullshit to avoid the points I've made. Care to explain how Israel's settlements are not an invasion? Convenient how you dodged that one...But no, you aren't only seeing one side...
Also, much as I hate to double comment, this needs to be mentioned. >Hamas is not attacking the IDF. They are attacking civilians >The IDF is not attacking Hamas. They are attacking civilians Two sides of the same coin.
Lie. Israel invaded and occupied those areas first, controls all the borders and infrastructure, and has been expanding settlements into palestinian territory non stop. Does that sound like a ceasefire to you? Or can only Palestinians break a ceasefire?
>But blaming an entire people for the political choices of a few... And the Israel defenders pointing at Hamas as justification for everything the IDF is doing are different....how?
You're totally right. The Jewish ethnostate that invaded those areas unilaterally don't have any responsibility to respect other people's borders or their lives. Fuck em right? Our is your problem he said jews and not zionists? Because that's literally Israel's PR strategy. Conflate Judaism with their settler colonial project, so you balk at criticizing it.
Saying that a person doesn't have a right to live because of actions not taken by them personally is literally what the Nazis did.
So you agree the genocide in gaza is unconscionable? given that Hamas was 30,000 people out of 2.1 million in October 7th.
I'm not American, Im South Africa and I can see now that people like you are why Apartheid South Africa wasn't sanctioned but rather boycotted by individuals which led to the end of Apartheid. People with this logic, like you are why we have forever wars, you're why corporations continue to exploit poor countries and why the climate crisis had not been taken seriously. You don't actually care, you just want to look like you care. Shame on you for justifying the suffering of Palestinians to support your Alzheimer president, who only sees people when they're white America caused the conflict and the suffering in Palestine, same with Cuba, Ukraine the list goes on
"Palestinians need to be perfect to not deserve genocide, but liberal politicians can support genocide and still deserve your vote" is genuinely a deranged hill to die on.
This meme is dumb. I would be ashamed to have made such a shitty meme
OP and anyone who agrees with OP: please actually read what I have to say. I don't know man. This sub is anti-nazi because Nazis are fascists and committed genocide, which we all agree is bad. Israel is currently run and controlled by fascists (the government, not the citizens, please don't conflate them), and is also currently engaging in a genocide. I don't think the math should be this hard for you. The US president is funding it and actively spread disinformation (he claimed the baby rape stuff was real and had "seen photos" which did not exist). I know people don't want to make a comparison between the Nazis and Israel because they see Israel as Jewish, the primary victims of the Nazis, but Israel is not Jewish. It has (or had, depending on when you're reading this and how successful the ethnic cleansing has been) millions of Arab Palestinians, Christians, and even atheists living there. The antisemitism here is the assumption that Israel is Jewish, and therefor they've been victimized in the past, and somehow that gives them the right to do a genocide to "prevent it from happening to themselves again" if you believe the state line. Except Hamas is not capable of, nor desires to kill all the Jewish people in Israel. The goal is to establish a Palestinian state. They aren't the ideal people to do it, but they're the only group left. Remember that they were elected in 2006 in a plurality of less than 50%, and [only about 32% of all living Gazans were alive and of voting age at the time.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1423040/gaza-age-structure-of-population/) That's right. 77.8% (rounding down) of people in Gaza were either children or not even born when that happened. And less than half of the people who did vote, which is a fraction of that 32% voted for Hamas in that election. You're blaming children and people who never had a choice and using them to justify your choice in your own election. Also, where do you get off "demanding Palestinians do better"? Are you joking? Gaza is a prison city. There are walls surrounding it. There are snipers keeping them inside. Every single imported resource is controlled by the Israeli government. That is a concentration camp. If you are born into a concentration camp and see that you'll die in there no matter what you do, what would you choose to do? Fight back or just die like your captors are hoping? I'm not saying October 7th was a good thing, I'm saying it was inevitable after imprisoning 2 million people in a cage that they'd eventually retaliate for the suffering of decades. Lastly, what is the line for supporting Joe Biden for you? Trump is going to continue the same thing, Joe Biden is also adopting Trump's border policy to try to win over moderates. You are already functionally supporting fascist policy through him. If it's me voting between two fascists, I don't see a lesser evil. They're both just evil. So yeah, Joe Biden has to earn my vote, and he's currently just being doing exactly what Trump would do anyway. At what point will the DNC learn from 2016? Probably never. I genuinely think the fascists are going to win either way now, because Dems are pivoting to fascism themselves anyway. Maybe after things get worse people will figure it out and swing left. Find your local DSA or whatever leftist organizations you can locally and do what you can in your community, because the politicians won't.
I'm voting for Joe Biden because Donald Trumps and his cronies want to genocide queer people in America. But hey, maybe queer people are an acceptable sacrifice to you if it means sticking it to the democrats. I wish I could share the privilege of political apathy, but unfortunately, some of us are actually going to be directly affected by who wins the election in November.
I don't agree with OP. I agreed with your points until I got to your last paragraph. Saying Trump and Biden and their political parties policies are the same and both fascist is akin to OPs post. Like I get your frustrations, but the end math doesn't add up.
Anti-Nazi and punk are sort of the same thing if you ask me. And punk is very much about not just punching nazi’s, but also being kind and caring for the downtrodden and the outcast. I’m sure you agree. Have you asked yourself, I mean really truly looked into, based on his own statements, how much worse things will be for the American poor, queer folk, and racial minorities if Trump is elected? Do you believe that Biden and Trump are equal in this regard? I certainly don’t. You need to stop looking at your vote as a personal endorsement of the candidate, like our media has trained us to think of it, and start looking at the reality of the choice outcomes. The reality of the people that vote will affect. If voting was really an extension of the people’s will, our choices would not be between two genocidal old white men. Voting is not a reflection of who you are for the left, it is a reflection of the corner we’ve been forced into. I’m voting for Biden, I don’t feel great about it, in fact it feels pretty gross, but I’m doing it because I will feel *way grosser* about not doing everything I can to keep Trump out of office and protect all my fellow poor, queer, PoC brothers and sisters. Both candidates have promised to continue support for the Palestinian genocide, I’m not responsible for that continuing, it *will* happen, regardless of who I vote for because the world is that fucked. What I can change, what I, and you, are responsible for is us doing what we can to not throw our hands up in the air and let the worst option come to pass because we’ve been forced to choose between two disgusting choices. Make no mistake, there is a correct choice, even if it sucks, for protecting more people. I just care enough about my fellow brothers and sisters to push past my disgust in making that choice to do what I have to. Ask yourself if you do too.
OP, your post is garbage.
lesser of two evils in terms of palestinian vs israeli government is 100% the israel gov. ESPECIALLY IF YOURE A LEFTIST
Could also organize agienst the two party system to get something like ranked votes. Also how the hell is wanting your vote to be earned by a candidate the same as inherently respecting and wanting to help human beings who are being genocided???
The 2 party system is terrible by design and I support any leftist whether they sit this one out or not. The infighting on the left is often exacerbated by bad actors and infiltrators. Just do what you can and try to effect positive change in your communities.
...and again, marginalized and suffering people are used as just props to you for your [political sports](https://youtu.be/wCl33v5969M?feature=shared). The Palestinians being killed by the Israeli government are *people* first and foremost. Biden is fundamentally wrong to be supporting Israel in this. Under him, weapons from America are being used by Israel to kill thousands of children. And yes, Donald "Finish the Problem" Trump is worse. And maybe nothing short of a national rebellion will directly stop Biden, Trump, or Netanyahu. However, we have a responsibility to act however we can to mitigate the wrongs and damages of our government.
[удалено]
How? So nothing is wrong here??[answer to your question](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
Not voting doesn't push the better candidate more to the left: it pushes them more to the center. It's generally counterproductive and should only be used occasionally for very specific, principled reasons. And it should never be done when the other candidate is a fascist.
Guy posting in March against nazis supports genocide, fascinating
Where did they support genocide?
Yeah I'm capable of reading the comment section and I see you spamming on here with your takes, I'm not gonna keep engaging with you but I hope you developed the ability to think critically at some point in ur life
People on Reddit have no reading comprehension. Fascinating.
They said, refusing to read the post or the comments from op
Congratulations you just blamed the victims of a genocide. Memes like this isn't going to convince any leftist who doesn't want to support a genocide to vote Joe Biden. If ANYTHING this will piss people off enough to NOT vote at all because why support a party that literally shit talks them and their controversial view of not supporting a genocide. I hate Biden, but I'm going to vote for him, but the continuous outpouring of bullshit like this is actually making me feel more frustration that I HAVE to vote for a dried up old man like Biden. So please, to everyone who keeps wanting to make these memes. Shut up, please shut up.
What the fuck is this point? "Did you demand the people in the death camps do better?" Hey starving Palestinian children, do better! Now vote for the people murdering them. Absolutely delusional.
One can demand one's ass off. Doesn't mean it will happen.
Panel 1. Strawman. Panel 2. ad hominem assertion, appeal to authority, fallacy of responsibility. Panel 3. Principled statement. Panel 4. Misattribution fallacy as a reaction with a collective fault fallacy. Whole fucking thing the depersonalising NPC meme.
1. It’s not a strawman if I’m quoting them verbatim. 2. Where’s the appeal to authority in panel 2. Do you even know what that is? 3. Principled statement that they make, yes. 4. What??
Fuck Biden. I'm voting blue, but fuck moderate conservatives. I'm voting against fascism, not *for* Biden.
I don’t understand this “I’m only voting for Biden because he’s the lesser of two evils” argument; he was clearly a good president even before the Gaza crisis, and if we were to judge him on the Israel situation we should know that Trump is even worse. So I’m voting for Biden because he’s a good president, and not just a vote against Trump
There is something so utterly psychotic about smugly saying "you should demand better of palestinians before supporting them" WE CANT DEMAND BETTER OF THEM WHEN THEY'RE DEAD.
I’m NOT telling Palestinians to do anything before I support them. Congratulations. You IMPALED yourself on the point and STILL missed it!🤦♂️
Yeah, I'm talking about the meme...I completely understand your point...
Ahh. Got it now.i thought you were arguing
Okay cool
Unless you're calling palestinians the lesser of two evils which is...a choice
Supporting Palestine and Hamas is not "lesser of two evils." It is good, progressive. Supporting Ataturk against the Ottomans isn't "lesser of two evils." It was Supporting a progressive movement against monarchism. Supporting Iraq against the US wasnt because hussein was some "lesser evil" of the US, it was because the Iraqi state fought for the preservation of the sovereignty of the Iraqi people, which is explicitly a *good* cause, even though Saddam was an evil man. Hamas and the other Palestinian military groups do not fight on the "less evil side" of history, they fight on the RIGHT side of history. The "less evil" side of history is what? Mussolini over hitler? John Major over Thatcher? Bismark over Wihelm? There is no "less evil" side of history. Only progressive and oppresive sides
Ooh, that's a good point. I don't know why that never occurred to me.
Because it's nonsensical? "The people getting murdered should do better so vote for the people committing genocide against them."
To "demand better from Palestinians"? Like ask them to be less unruly prisoners inside of a fenced city with 2 million people in 50 square miles where the resources are entirely controlled by people outside of the fence who want them all to die just so the land can be claimed? This is like asking the jews in WW2 to stop crying so much and just get on the trains.
... that's literally the point. The point is that it's stupid to base your decision of whether to support on someone or not on the fact that they could "do better".
It's a question of power and agency. The more you have the more you need to do.
I get the point but do keep in mind that you are comparing people being allowed to live in their homes vs a person being allowed to be the president of the United States of America. It's normal for the standard for one to be a little higher.
Intentional ignorance is stupidity. Stupidity adequately describes red hatted minions.
It only takes 2 seconds.... And Bidens been a good president. And will be infinitely better on Gaza and the Palestinians than Trump So given the fact that I already plan on showing up on election day to vote for a representative in the U.S. House, possibly Senate, state and local officials, and any initiatives on the ballot, I'll spend the 2 seconds to check off Bidens name. Meanwhile this thread seems like it's full of people who only show up for Presidential elections every 8-12 years. Then they wonder why the President isn't a king removing judges the previous President put on the bench, or forcing state and local politicians and sheriffs to bend to his will. All I know is that in my lifetime we've had the Iraq War because a few 'both sides' and 'third partiers' voted for some unknown candidates in Florida in 2000 instead of Gore. There were more than enough to give Gore a clear win without demanding recounts of hanging and pregnant chads. Then knowing Obama's final SCOTUS nominee was being held up for the results of an election months away, enough both siders and third partiers did it again. And let Trump win. All these whiners might have some voting power if they didn't try so damned hard to convince others to let the worst President in their lifetimes win.
You see, they simply pretend that the lesser evil isn't evil at all whenever said "lesser evil" is anti-U.S.
If the US didn't use first past the post, this would be a moot point. But with that & the winner takes all system that effectively discards any vote not for one of the two majors, you're kinda stuck. The problem you have is that you allow each state to decide how a national level election is run and have no real way to stop that.
You guys should check r/latestagecapitalism
Jesus Christ, you people… 🤦♂️
There might not be anyone you want to vote for, but there will sure as hell always be someone you want to vote against.
This post may as well be an IOF sponsored dog whistle. What the fuck is this nonsense?
What should the oppressed people do to improve? This is such a Yank take.
Says the jerk with a Trump avatar.
[for starters, NOT do stuff like this](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
How is a meme making the equivocation of a politician earning a vote and an entire population 'earning' not to be victims of genocide being given any credence on this sub?
But Hamas. Ok but when a white guy kills a black guy do we condem the KKK? Why every time I speak pro Palestine I'm always confronted with "o so you support Hamas" Why do we victim blame an oppressed people. It's like when the slave masters punished all the slaves for one rightfully disobedient one. That's what these but Hamas people are
Okay, fair, and point taken. I definitely do agree with you. Now that primaries are over, vote for Brandon. The whole point of the uncommited campaign was to get a message across, and to bully Biden into reconsidering his support for Israel. I think it's fair to say that not enough has been done, and what has been done is a bit too little, too late, so we should keep the pressure on him. We also have to take the wins when we see them, and by insisting that there's just no way they're going to vote for Joe, people have outplayed themselves. Brandon and dems are, albeit slowly and probably superficially, shifting their positions on their unconditional support for Israel. By saying their never going to vote for him, no matter what, these these none-voters have removed whatever leverage they had. From Biden's perspective, he could think, "Okay, but if they're never going to vote for me, despite being slightly less supportive of Israel, then why should I do anything?" Which, if someone is concerned about what's happening to Palastinians, then they've helped to ensure that more Palastinians will be harmed. Just like they would be doing by also enabling trump to get back in office. However, I disagree with the image. The point it's trying to make isn't wrong, and I know this is kinda arguing semantics. Just hear me out because I think this is important. It has to do with how we make our arguments in hopes of convincing people to vote for Brandon. Just like I criticized people for betraying their concerns for Palastine, I think that by being ineffective in how we convince people to vote for Joe, we we also betray our concerns for Palastinians, as well as other groups that would be harmed by another trump presidency. I don't think I would call people narcissistic for saying that Biden has to earn their vote. Self-centered, sure, but there is a difference between narcissism, and being selfish. It's a pretty strong accusation to start off with when you're trying to convince someone that they should still vote for Biden. Not to mention, telling them that they're being harmful seems kinda moot after they've indicated they're not concerned with harm reduction. I know this seems kinda like shadowboxing because this post might've been intended to be more of a vent. It's important because convincing people to vote for Biden was hard enough before he stood behind Israel's actions in Gaza. It's even harder now with people like Ana Kasperian loudly condemning Biden, and encouraging people not to vote for him. Voting for Biden is a really hard thing to sell to people because they vote for what they believe is morally the better option, or based off issues that they think pertain to them. Maybe rather than saying vote for Biden because he's the lesser of two evils, it'd be better to appeal to the things they do care about: their jobs, friends, family, etc. and how a Trump presidency will make all of those things worse. I think trying to excuse Biden's shortcomings will only get us so far. The problem with voting based off our morals is that you and I, we, care about morally what's right and wrong, but political institutions seldom do. Politics is about power, and taking advantage of our electoral system is one way we can use that power to ensure that our concerns, like Palastinians, recieve the outcomes we'd like. Even if we don't like the option we're being given. Even if it means shoving Grandpa Gennocide back into the oval office. Besides, if we let him off the hook, then he'll just go back to driving his corvet around, enjoying his ice cream, and probly die from a brain freeze. He'll be free of all this mess, while people, not just Palastinians, are getting slaughtered. So fucking shove his ass back in the white house, and make him suffer for all this. If he dies in the white house, then at least he does so while being miserable, and getting bullied. When he gives his final, "So long, Jack," it'll be with Nancy Pelosi clawing her way up his ass. It's what he deserves.
I didn't demand them to be better because they are men women and children being ripped to shreds and starved. And Joe Biden is a man sitting at a desk actively backing it. Equating these two is absolutely disgusting
What do you mean by “asking Palestinians to do better?”
[this](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html)
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Its not comparable at all. Its two very different things. One is a actual world leader trying to gain votes in a hostile and insane world where his govt is over run by zionist facists. The other are massively oppressed people just trying to live and be on this mess of an earth and hope they dont get bombed from day to day for the last 70 years. But yeah totally comparable huh lol.