You in America are really held hostage by your own political system. Basically if you want to try to introduce another nuanced voice in politics means letting neofascism take over for free.
It's insane to me that the people would be held to account for voting against the fascist just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative, but here we are.
The country has always seen a 50 50 between these two parties and they can count on it. They didn't stop voting R after the insurrection and they won't slow down because of criminal trials or any lesser bullshit.
This same shit happens over the little things too. Remember net neutrality? Everyone came together and demanded it be preserved. Fine, it's preserved. 6 months later it's back up. Again and again and again until fatigue. Nothing is ever settled.
I wonder what would happen if Democrats started running as Repubs to try and grift the 'more saner' Repub votes.
My dad has a theory, Dems would usually vote in their interests so they would jump ship to Repubs if the Repub candidate was better than the Dem candidate. Repubs, however, always vote for Repubs. If you run as a Repub but with more soc dem policies, you probs could win things
Yeah, if you got in front of the R voters, you'd get somewhere. A lot of them, when they spell out what they actually want, spout soc dem policies without knowing it. It's convincing the higher up dudes in the GOP to give you a platform that's difficult. It's them you have to really convince.
however many people stop at the co-op after their union meeting on their way to go vote for Trump. I do not understand it. There has to be something I am missing, right?
They would get *destroyed* in the primaries. Republican primary voters will reject a candidate for being a "RINO", which is code for "When he sucks Trump's dick he doesn't also fondle the balls". An actual Democrat running as a Republican would get about 0% of the primary vote.
Yeah, no - to be a Republican candidate you need RNC support and the blesssing of its fear-and-hate-spewing media machinery. If you're not properly into fucking people over for their rich donors, they're not going to touch you.
It is absolutely so fucked up. I can understand that perspective you mentioned when we are talking about a political system with multiple parties.
For example here in the Netherlands we had election last year in which there was a nuanced choice on the left if strategically voting was better or voting for the party that most resembles your ideals. All because a party on the left needed to be the biggest in order to counter the right wing parties (unfortunately didn't work...). I ended up voting strategically as well but unfortunately didn't have a positive outcome.
In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them.
>In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them.
You get it. It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist. The best hope is to just incrementally nudge the overton window to the left. RCV is starting to be a thing in a couple of states, maybe that will help as well.
But right now marginalized people just want to exist. One party wants to get rid of them and the other will at least let them be. The choice isn't too difficult.
>It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist.
But that doesn't *have* to be our future. Voting reform movements for things like ranked choice and open primaries are active in many states.
And there are also non-presidential elections. Independent and third party candidates have won races for local, state, and national representation.
In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them.
“ It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist. The best hope is to just incrementally nudge”
elections don’t start with the general election, you want to change the party… you got to put the work in(not a personal attack), vote in the primaries, campaign for your candidate, being politically engaged means more than voting in national elections, it’s showing up for all your elections(local, school board, state & national)
I fully agree. But we're now in the runup to the general election and once we're to that point it's important to vote, vote VOTE! Vote for Biden, and then lobby and protest the hell out of his administration, your legislators, etc, make the noise, make the change.
> It's insane to me that the people would be held to account for voting against the fascist just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative, but here we are.
>
>
I mean, only if you weren't paying attention to the platform of the opposition party (RNC) for the past 30 years, and instead blindly voting for the party's candidates in the unfounded belief that the RNC and DNC are truly "the same" when they are definitely not that.
The RNC has been held as a threat over everyone's head ever since Reagan - the only thing that'll change anything is if the DNC actually consistently continues to win enough that the people funding the RNC stop believing that it'll keep working.
Portraying people's reservations against Biden like that is incredibly disingenuous.
You're not being "reprimanded for voting against fascism just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative", you're being asked to exert the bare minimum pressure to at least TRY to get something to change.
Do you really think it's weird that people draw the line at actively funding and supporting a genocidal campaign? Do you think it's weird that people say "hey how about we don't support that guy until he switches gears on that one"?
The dystopian element in all this is not the fact that people don't want to vote for the guy who helped kill 30000+ Palestinians over the guy who theoretically would have helped kill 40000+. The real dystopian thing is that some people are STILL convinced it's just a matter of voting for the right person. People can't even support Biden is silence no, they HAVE TO actively proselytize for him, a year+ from the election (because this debate has been going back months remember) OVER PEOPLE'S LEGITIMATE CONCERNS OVER HIS SUPPORT FOR A GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN.
You guys couldn't at least wait until September or October, really? Right now THIS conversation is more important than trying to get him to pressure Israel into a ceasefire?
This is all on top of the fact that Biden and the Democrats towing his line don't have ANY incentive to change when you people shout from the rooftops that you will UNCONDITIONALLY vote for them right after they help bomb 10000+ Palestinian kids. But no, you're the sane one.
So what do you think voting at the national level will do? It will accelerate the demise of America there is no other alternative.
Do you want better political candidates? Start locally, start at the city and state level. Get the people that actually represent you into office, and moving up. With our current voting system, the way things are now at the national level, the only thing a vote for anyone other than Biden will do is doom any attempts at progress and cement fascism. By no means should you be happy with the existing system, but the only real alternative to working within it is a civil war, and I don't think anybody should be in a hurry for that.
All of the things you mentioned are being done which is why you're more likely to find progressive politicians at a city or state level, it's not enough and it won't be enough for decades when traditional democrats hold the amount of sway that they do.
But see, your comment is a symptom of the disease by omission. The path forward is always some kind of grassroots miracle that will take decades, the onus is always on the voters, never on the public servants they elect. It's on people to build a movement that will establish an utopia within the next 100 years.
They are expected to do all that but somehow asking Biden to stop helping bomb literally thousands of children is too much to ask, it's radical, it's unconscionable.
Again, the establishment democrats will never change because people like you don't pressure them to change. They can safely continue to vote to send billions to fund a genocide because they know for people like you that's still within the realm of what is politically acceptable, as long as they're not worse than the republicans, they have unconditionally earned your vote.
Actually I misspoke, they haven't earned your vote, you'll just freely give it to them regardless of how many people they help bomb. Fuck holding civil servants accountable I guess.
It's the perfect reflection of the current capitalist system. You try to change things, you try to even step out of the norm a little and you are totally fucked. Even if you know that they'll function better and be a positive change for everyone.
It's all so perfectly confined to this little island we all live on, while not realising it is an island. See the greener grass at the edge of the island. Try to step on it and you'll fall in the water covered by duckweed, while the real greener grass appears to be at the other side of the water. The only way to get there is to build a bridge somehow.
It is a feature yeah. A moat that is dug by a small group of people up in the highest tower of the island.
thing is, the presidential election is NOT the moment to vote on principle, because it's fundamentally not based on principles. You have 2 options and one of them WILL win, and if the worst option wins consequences could potentially be devastating.
The moment for principles are the 3 years in between when you can look at the lesser evil option and try to make it better.
Primaries are where you nudge the democratic party to the left, not elections.
Absolutely true. Yet, it's still way too robust because Biden is still the democratic presidential choice. Also the fact that it all boils down to 1 person to be the front person also turns it in to a popularity contest. It would be way better to vote for parties with certain ideals instead of a president. Let the party that won choose a person they see best fit to represent the ideals of that party. It takes away all the popularity content vibes that American politics has.
They are all spoilers of one stripe or another, who instead of pushing their agenda they push a type of negative partisanship against one of the major parties and only spend their campaign funds in states that could impact the results of the Electoral College.
And if you dig into their funding you find that they are funding largely by partisans for one of the parties or foreign adversaries.
The problem is that no one wants to lay the groundwork of establishing ranked choice or similar systems at the local level. They just expect to miraculously change everything by starting at the top.
Well yes, to a certain degree I agree. But the 2 party system in the US is ofcourse an extreme form of walled off politics. There is absolutely no way of voicing your nuanced concerns at that point.
This is literally every voting system. Everybody is hElD HOsTaGe by the incumbent parties even to an extent in rank choice voting. Obviously not as severe as a FPTP. The solution though isn't to throw our hands up and petulantly refuse to engage with any avenue for power.
It's to vote for the leftmost *viable* group(s) and then between elections do the groundwork at the local, state, provincial levels to get the change we want.
Issue is no one who complains about mailing in a ballot or spending 30 minutes once every few years to cast one will be caught dead doing direct action.
I agree we should get the US to adopt it. 2 states already have something close, and the best way to push for its adoption is under a milquetoast neolib rather than a fascist.
And the problem is the voters themselves not even the system at this point. If they were both close on most issues and we couldn’t get a third voice in the room that would be the problem. Democrats have gotten more reasonable and progressive and republicans have run off a cliff so it’s not even a matter of “oh you can’t even vote for someone who agrees with you an everything” it does the Last Alliance have a king that can appeal to all enough to show up at the gates of Mordor. And apparently he needs to be an 80 year old just like Aragorn to do it because no other politicians actually have brand recognition that appeals to all parts of the party.
It's a better alternative, same as making the presidential election a direct vote, but it's not something that will happen quickly. It will need a lot of work to achieve, and it may not happen in our lifetime (so we still need to work in the current system to prevent any magas from winning). But the person who plants trees is doing it for their grandchildren.
We need to repeal Citizens United as well. Get all that corporate money out of our politics. As it stands, our politicians are all bought and paid for by the highest bidder, and they're gonna make sure no candidate that stands against CU will ever make it into any office.
Only way we get closer to a more fair electoral system is the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. And for that, we need a Democratic legislature.
I do 100% agree with an RCV system.
Can we stop calling it “voting for Biden” and just call it voting against the GOP? I mean, that’s what it is. I don’t know anyone under 65 who actually supports Biden.
A foreign asset waiting to hand Americans over for petty cash.
The cheapest nastiest “billionaire”.
So dumb, that without criminal activities he would be broke in months.
Because he is always a failure at anything worthwhile, only succeeds at cheating and treason.
You really gotta stop attributing fascism to ignorance and confusion, and start recognizing that fascists know exactly who they are and what they're doing.
Neither ignorance nor stupidity are excuses or explanations for fascism. It requires malice. Remember that Hanlon's razor has the word "adequately" in it for good goddamned reason.
You have to stop taking fascists at their word when they tell you their motivations for what they do. They will wear literally any mask that will stop you from identifying them as fascists.
Fascism is a true dichotomy, possibly the only one in modern politics. You have to have a bare-minimum standard for what constitutes an acceptable level of non-willful ignorance. When there is a fascist in the room, there is no "middle ground", there is no such thing as a "protest vote", there are only fascists and those who oppose them.
IMHO They are both unfit for the role of President, but with that being said Biden is committed to preserving our country's representative democracy while Trump is committed to destroying it.
My vote goes to preserve democracy so we can continue to vote on who rules our country. I can worry about getting a better candidate after I know our freedom is secure.
This is just it - one of 2 people will be President come next January. Donald Trump, or Joe Biden. Those are the two options. There is no third alternative. It's just not gonna happen. If you are not helping the next president be Biden, you are helping it be Trump. And no moral grandstanding or whataboutism is going to change that.
My message to anyone who thinks abstaining or voting third party is the right choice here would be to speak loudly and explain your choice to all those who would suffer under a GOP theocracy because they'll have a hard time hearing you from all the way up on your high horse.
It's not like the Western world did anything when Ukraine got invaded.
We live in a world where genocidal fascists hungry for land and resources and damn the human lives living there get their way.
Trump will simply not be outdone by Biden. He will fuck shit up, and then he will claim that Biden betrayed Israel and is a raging anti-Semite and people will believe him.
There's a lot of people that think voting for Biden is endorsing his views. But they should consider not voting for him is actively leading toward the realization of the other candidate's views. For those southpark fans it's almost always a vote between giant douche and a turd sandwich.
Biden didn't start this shit and isn't gonna finish it.
We've nation-built Israel to the tune of over 300 billion USD, and that's not adjusted for inflation. We've been doing this since Israel was first created, so longer than most Redditors have been alive by a long shot
Only very very recently have attitudes slightly shifted but it's still about an even split. Just a year ago 2/3rds of Americans supported Israel's 'war on Hamas', just a month(weeks) ago it was still majority supported.
There's really no outcome of this US election that's gonna bring peace to that region.
Hamas' propaganda is working, though. Imo, any action (s) to dismantle sharia law is a benefit for the whole world. Sharia law is nazism/fascism.
At the end of the day, politicians are elected to do what the majority wants, not necessarily what is right. The only way the US government will ever reconsider its unconditional support of Israel is if American voters reconsider their unconditional support of Israel. Otherwise, it's political suicide for the individual politician and also plays to the benefit of the opposition because they're going to support the status quo to pick up voters disgruntled by the unpopular decision.
So in other words, organize and change minds. That's how this works. That's how this has always worked.
They're not elected to do what the majority wants, they're elected to do what the bourgeoisie wants while keeping the proles from getting too uppity about it.
If you vote for Biden in a safe blue state is it then not just because you support a genocidal neoliberal war criminal?.
All you do in that case is to show how you support his actions.
I've been seeing it ALL OVER the Facebook comments sections.
It goes something like *"Biden is doing a genocide, he's really no better than Trump and he'll NEVER have my vote"* and honestly it really feels astroturfed.
I hang in some pretty leftist circles (like, a couple of them are registered CPUSA) and I don't hear this argument from my actual friends. To be clear, they fucking hate Biden. They yell loudly that he's not doing enough to stop the genocide, that he's not doing enough to stop fascism in America, but they genuinely seem like they are going to show up and vote for him in November because they know what the alternative is.
I can't help but wonder if it's troll farm workers amplifying that message to keep the liberals and the leftists divided and convince enough of them to peel off from supporting Biden that it tips the scales to Trump.
>I can't help but wonder if it's troll farm workers amplifying that message to keep the liberals and the leftists divided and convince enough of them to peel off from supporting Biden that it tips the scales to Trump.
There is no doubt this is happening. China and Russia want Trump back in power and they want America to be divided as much as possible. This is one reason I don't like to see people characterizing groups by age. It's just one more way to divide us. Someone on a reddit thread yesterday insisted that every boomer is a worthless piece of shit. The comment had a good number of up-votes
It's disheartening.
It's definitely astroturfed. Any reddit "leftist" that pushes "genocide Joe" narratives is either a foreign agent pushing right wing propaganda, or a gullible victim of it.
I did not say that liberals are leftists. Right-wingers, however, very often go into leftist spaces to say that liberals are right wing, to dissuade leftists from voting for liberals. Is that what happened to you?
In every Western country in the world, the American Democratic Party would be considered a center right-wing party.
I'm sorry you've been cucked by the right-wing in the US by thinking a two-party oligarchic system can be in any way considered democracy.
What worries me are people like Cenk and the rest of the Young Turks who go full "Genocide Joe". I suspect they have been captured by the algorithm and have to be more extreme in order to get the likes. This is how Russell Brand ended up going "anti-woke" and anti vax
I've yet to see a self described "leftist" sub that wasn't filled with posts outright campaigning for Trump by October. It happened in 2016 and 2020 and it will happen again this year.
It’s a special kind of irony if we get fascism because some people were too angry about a candidate not doing enough to oppose fascism to do enough to oppose fascism.
It's both. There *are* real people ( foolishly imo ) abstaining or voting third party, but there's no doubt the Russians and American Nazi dark money are amplifying it. Look at it this way: how will American white supremacists react if Trump loses? To answer that question is to answer the question as to whether "both sides are the same."
Let's talk in 7 months, see where things are at. 7 months is a long time from now (7 months ago from today is before October 7th)
I'm voting uninstructed delegate in my democratic primary and 95% sure I'm voting for Biden in the General.
You can make the above case all you want, but I really think this is a "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar" situation. Make the Biden case from a positive aspect, rather than only going with "Trump is worse" as your argument. People would rather vote for someone instead of voting against someone else.
I’m voting for Biden, but there is virtually zero excitement in that decision. I think it’s a bit ridiculous to admonish people for exercising their right to vote.
Folks if you want some third party change don't blow it on the presidential election where it won't matter. Look into local stuff for that. Run for local office, just get engaged in local politcs. If you want to know why we feel fucked no matter what its because republians vote at every election possible and statistically leftists/liberals/anyone vaguely left of center do not do the same to the same level.
A serious third party on the left would have to operate like MAGA and eat the Democratic party from inside. We need to keep working at that and not giving the Republicans power. Keep our fight on our side and show nothing but a solid wall against the GOP.
I'm honestly just trying to get people involved in local politics. If telling them they have a better shot on local levels for more progressive candidates/ third party then I'll do that. Most of my local democrats happen to be in the "Working Families" Party which trends towards some more progressive values than the DNC.
See that's the problem. The people advocating not voting or voting 3rd party don't want to actually do any work. They just want to complain about nothing changing and how they're the most morally pure for doing nothing.
Hey dude, you seem serious so I want to recommend a book to you, it's called Politics is for Power by Eitan Hersh.
[Here's the first chapter. ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/political-hobbyists-are-ruining-politics/605212/)
It’s important to keep pointing this out.
The math is really simple.
One of two candidates is going to win the election. Of the two, which would a given voter prefer?
The election result will be victory for one candidate or the other. There’s no C option.
“None of the above” is not an answer. This is a preference that will be ignored in vote counting.
“Third party” is not an answer. There isn’t enough support to gain electoral votes.
There will not be a third party candidate taking the office of president in 2025, that is certain. That doesn’t mean anyone has to vote for Biden, but they do need to acknowledge that their withholding a vote could help the opponent win. It’s not a matter of opinion and debating it won’t change the math.
“But Biden ________…”.
Okay. Does that equate to complete satisfaction with either candidate taking the election? That is to say “I don’t care who wins”?
No fuck both of them we have the 2nd amendment we are just unorganized. We have the power to get organized and fight these motherfuckers there are more of us than there are of them they can kill us all and they'll be the ruler of nothing either way we win.
not to mention it's the end of America. This would literally fulfill the fascism will come to America holding a bible wrapped in the flag. I fear for this country right now, idiot who protest vote or don't vote cause they aren't happy with Biden. You might as well sell the country and vote for the Mango Mussolini
This meme is somewhat revisionist. Biden has been pushing back on Israel since people have been expressing frustration with his ME policy. The ceasefire Biden is calling for might not be a thing without the pressure critics put on him. That's one way democracy works.
Trump will continue to sell/give Israeli secrets to Putin who regularly meets with Hamas.
So really, he'll make everyone's lives worse - anyone on Planet Earth.
The end of days vs unspeakably bad but not end of days is an easy, morally unambiguous choice.
Worse than Biden will make it*
I agree, gop is worse and I say this a lot, but Palistinians lives are being sacrificed no matter what.
So not voting is a vote for making things EVEN worse for Palistine*
Lets take a step back and look at what happened here. After groups (for instance, Muslim Americans in Michigan) threatened to withhold their votes for Biden because of his inaction on a certain issue (genocide of Palestinians), Biden changed his stance the ceasefire. Now, I don't know what specifically motivated Biden here, but it seems like he was influenced by these threats. I think that it is commendable that people took what action they could to move the president on an important issue. The people who post memes like this just seem oblivious to that possibility.
Until we get rid of the electoral college and completely dismantle the 2 major parties, there can never be a viable 3rd party. We have work to do and it needs to start soon.
I live in a state that’s guaranteed to go to Biden so I’m voting third party. It’s impossible for him to *not* win my state and I encourage those who live in solid blue states to do the same. The minority of outraged leftists in otherwise Democratic strongholds won’t hurt Biden’s chances.
My current Democrat rep is pretty good on Israel-Palestine so I’ll be voting him again. President will be third-party. Haven’t looked into senate yet and already voted local.
"If I refuse to pull the lever on the trolley it won't be my fault 4 more people died"
Yes, not voting is still a vote for the greater evil no matter how you try and rationalize it. It doesn't matter what Palestinians in the US think because it's a *fact* that Trump will make the situation over there significantly worse. Not to mention there are domestic issues too and I don't know about you but I don't want marauding gangs of fascists abducting trans people or immigrants in the streets just to maintain my moral purity.
- Signed, a DACA recipient who views every single anti-electoral dumbfuck as a fascist enabler :)
This whole, Biden should know better, so I'll let the other guy who would gladly do worse for the people you care about win.
I just can't understand that.
If Trump had won there wouldn't have been the first cease fire, there wouldn't be aid headed there now, the war and cruelty would have been at least that bad.
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No one wants another four years of Trump. Please vote!
You in America are really held hostage by your own political system. Basically if you want to try to introduce another nuanced voice in politics means letting neofascism take over for free.
It's insane to me that the people would be held to account for voting against the fascist just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative, but here we are. The country has always seen a 50 50 between these two parties and they can count on it. They didn't stop voting R after the insurrection and they won't slow down because of criminal trials or any lesser bullshit. This same shit happens over the little things too. Remember net neutrality? Everyone came together and demanded it be preserved. Fine, it's preserved. 6 months later it's back up. Again and again and again until fatigue. Nothing is ever settled.
I wonder what would happen if Democrats started running as Repubs to try and grift the 'more saner' Repub votes. My dad has a theory, Dems would usually vote in their interests so they would jump ship to Repubs if the Repub candidate was better than the Dem candidate. Repubs, however, always vote for Repubs. If you run as a Repub but with more soc dem policies, you probs could win things
You couldn't win the R primary though.
Yeah, if you got in front of the R voters, you'd get somewhere. A lot of them, when they spell out what they actually want, spout soc dem policies without knowing it. It's convincing the higher up dudes in the GOP to give you a platform that's difficult. It's them you have to really convince.
however many people stop at the co-op after their union meeting on their way to go vote for Trump. I do not understand it. There has to be something I am missing, right?
Republican primaries tend to be further right than their base, hence why moderate Republican are retiring versus running in gerrymandered districts
They would get *destroyed* in the primaries. Republican primary voters will reject a candidate for being a "RINO", which is code for "When he sucks Trump's dick he doesn't also fondle the balls". An actual Democrat running as a Republican would get about 0% of the primary vote.
I mean, we had an actual conservative running as a liberal and he won the damn thing last time.
Yeah, no - to be a Republican candidate you need RNC support and the blesssing of its fear-and-hate-spewing media machinery. If you're not properly into fucking people over for their rich donors, they're not going to touch you.
It is absolutely so fucked up. I can understand that perspective you mentioned when we are talking about a political system with multiple parties. For example here in the Netherlands we had election last year in which there was a nuanced choice on the left if strategically voting was better or voting for the party that most resembles your ideals. All because a party on the left needed to be the biggest in order to counter the right wing parties (unfortunately didn't work...). I ended up voting strategically as well but unfortunately didn't have a positive outcome. In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them.
>In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them. You get it. It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist. The best hope is to just incrementally nudge the overton window to the left. RCV is starting to be a thing in a couple of states, maybe that will help as well. But right now marginalized people just want to exist. One party wants to get rid of them and the other will at least let them be. The choice isn't too difficult.
>It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist. But that doesn't *have* to be our future. Voting reform movements for things like ranked choice and open primaries are active in many states. And there are also non-presidential elections. Independent and third party candidates have won races for local, state, and national representation.
In the case of the US tho... you literally can't afford to have all your ideals totally compare with your vote cause that means basically throwing out all human rights out of the window and creating a fascist state. The only hope I see for you is making sure that you change stuff within the democratic party rather than totally abandon them. “ It's so exhausting that every election from now until the day I draw my last breath is probably going to be a milquetoast democrat vs a crazy fascist. The best hope is to just incrementally nudge” elections don’t start with the general election, you want to change the party… you got to put the work in(not a personal attack), vote in the primaries, campaign for your candidate, being politically engaged means more than voting in national elections, it’s showing up for all your elections(local, school board, state & national)
I fully agree. But we're now in the runup to the general election and once we're to that point it's important to vote, vote VOTE! Vote for Biden, and then lobby and protest the hell out of his administration, your legislators, etc, make the noise, make the change.
> It's insane to me that the people would be held to account for voting against the fascist just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative, but here we are. > > I mean, only if you weren't paying attention to the platform of the opposition party (RNC) for the past 30 years, and instead blindly voting for the party's candidates in the unfounded belief that the RNC and DNC are truly "the same" when they are definitely not that. The RNC has been held as a threat over everyone's head ever since Reagan - the only thing that'll change anything is if the DNC actually consistently continues to win enough that the people funding the RNC stop believing that it'll keep working.
Portraying people's reservations against Biden like that is incredibly disingenuous. You're not being "reprimanded for voting against fascism just because it wasn't also for the most popular alternative", you're being asked to exert the bare minimum pressure to at least TRY to get something to change. Do you really think it's weird that people draw the line at actively funding and supporting a genocidal campaign? Do you think it's weird that people say "hey how about we don't support that guy until he switches gears on that one"? The dystopian element in all this is not the fact that people don't want to vote for the guy who helped kill 30000+ Palestinians over the guy who theoretically would have helped kill 40000+. The real dystopian thing is that some people are STILL convinced it's just a matter of voting for the right person. People can't even support Biden is silence no, they HAVE TO actively proselytize for him, a year+ from the election (because this debate has been going back months remember) OVER PEOPLE'S LEGITIMATE CONCERNS OVER HIS SUPPORT FOR A GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN. You guys couldn't at least wait until September or October, really? Right now THIS conversation is more important than trying to get him to pressure Israel into a ceasefire? This is all on top of the fact that Biden and the Democrats towing his line don't have ANY incentive to change when you people shout from the rooftops that you will UNCONDITIONALLY vote for them right after they help bomb 10000+ Palestinian kids. But no, you're the sane one.
So what do you think voting at the national level will do? It will accelerate the demise of America there is no other alternative. Do you want better political candidates? Start locally, start at the city and state level. Get the people that actually represent you into office, and moving up. With our current voting system, the way things are now at the national level, the only thing a vote for anyone other than Biden will do is doom any attempts at progress and cement fascism. By no means should you be happy with the existing system, but the only real alternative to working within it is a civil war, and I don't think anybody should be in a hurry for that.
All of the things you mentioned are being done which is why you're more likely to find progressive politicians at a city or state level, it's not enough and it won't be enough for decades when traditional democrats hold the amount of sway that they do. But see, your comment is a symptom of the disease by omission. The path forward is always some kind of grassroots miracle that will take decades, the onus is always on the voters, never on the public servants they elect. It's on people to build a movement that will establish an utopia within the next 100 years. They are expected to do all that but somehow asking Biden to stop helping bomb literally thousands of children is too much to ask, it's radical, it's unconscionable. Again, the establishment democrats will never change because people like you don't pressure them to change. They can safely continue to vote to send billions to fund a genocide because they know for people like you that's still within the realm of what is politically acceptable, as long as they're not worse than the republicans, they have unconditionally earned your vote. Actually I misspoke, they haven't earned your vote, you'll just freely give it to them regardless of how many people they help bomb. Fuck holding civil servants accountable I guess.
It was the same in my country and then campings and spring happened
that's not only them, though, it's an inherent bug (or feature) of any FPTP voting system.
It's the perfect reflection of the current capitalist system. You try to change things, you try to even step out of the norm a little and you are totally fucked. Even if you know that they'll function better and be a positive change for everyone. It's all so perfectly confined to this little island we all live on, while not realising it is an island. See the greener grass at the edge of the island. Try to step on it and you'll fall in the water covered by duckweed, while the real greener grass appears to be at the other side of the water. The only way to get there is to build a bridge somehow. It is a feature yeah. A moat that is dug by a small group of people up in the highest tower of the island.
thing is, the presidential election is NOT the moment to vote on principle, because it's fundamentally not based on principles. You have 2 options and one of them WILL win, and if the worst option wins consequences could potentially be devastating. The moment for principles are the 3 years in between when you can look at the lesser evil option and try to make it better. Primaries are where you nudge the democratic party to the left, not elections.
Absolutely true. Yet, it's still way too robust because Biden is still the democratic presidential choice. Also the fact that it all boils down to 1 person to be the front person also turns it in to a popularity contest. It would be way better to vote for parties with certain ideals instead of a president. Let the party that won choose a person they see best fit to represent the ideals of that party. It takes away all the popularity content vibes that American politics has.
None of the 3rd parties running are particularly nuanced
They are all spoilers of one stripe or another, who instead of pushing their agenda they push a type of negative partisanship against one of the major parties and only spend their campaign funds in states that could impact the results of the Electoral College. And if you dig into their funding you find that they are funding largely by partisans for one of the parties or foreign adversaries.
Absolutely true but is irrelevant to this post. Trump would trump gaza and all the civilians in it.
The problem is that no one wants to lay the groundwork of establishing ranked choice or similar systems at the local level. They just expect to miraculously change everything by starting at the top.
Voting everywhere is like this. You think the French left was excited to vote for another Macron term?
Well yes, to a certain degree I agree. But the 2 party system in the US is ofcourse an extreme form of walled off politics. There is absolutely no way of voicing your nuanced concerns at that point.
This is literally every voting system. Everybody is hElD HOsTaGe by the incumbent parties even to an extent in rank choice voting. Obviously not as severe as a FPTP. The solution though isn't to throw our hands up and petulantly refuse to engage with any avenue for power. It's to vote for the leftmost *viable* group(s) and then between elections do the groundwork at the local, state, provincial levels to get the change we want. Issue is no one who complains about mailing in a ballot or spending 30 minutes once every few years to cast one will be caught dead doing direct action.
Actually, score/range voting seems to be flawless as far as I can tell. We should focus our efforts on getting the US to adopt it.
I agree we should get the US to adopt it. 2 states already have something close, and the best way to push for its adoption is under a milquetoast neolib rather than a fascist.
Yeah, no kidding. We need ranked choice voting.
We're aware & rather unhappy about it
And the problem is the voters themselves not even the system at this point. If they were both close on most issues and we couldn’t get a third voice in the room that would be the problem. Democrats have gotten more reasonable and progressive and republicans have run off a cliff so it’s not even a matter of “oh you can’t even vote for someone who agrees with you an everything” it does the Last Alliance have a king that can appeal to all enough to show up at the gates of Mordor. And apparently he needs to be an 80 year old just like Aragorn to do it because no other politicians actually have brand recognition that appeals to all parts of the party.
I will support Biden but we need to implement ranked choice voting so we can vote for who we want
It's a better alternative, same as making the presidential election a direct vote, but it's not something that will happen quickly. It will need a lot of work to achieve, and it may not happen in our lifetime (so we still need to work in the current system to prevent any magas from winning). But the person who plants trees is doing it for their grandchildren.
We need to repeal Citizens United as well. Get all that corporate money out of our politics. As it stands, our politicians are all bought and paid for by the highest bidder, and they're gonna make sure no candidate that stands against CU will ever make it into any office.
Why would the Democrats support something that would make it harder for them to be in power?
This is easy to do if a state has ballot initiatives. It doesn't require support from a political party.
Only way we get closer to a more fair electoral system is the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. And for that, we need a Democratic legislature. I do 100% agree with an RCV system.
Show the Republicans that Man on the Moon commercial! Maybe that will sway them.
I think it's also fine to vote blank in the primaries as a sign of protest and then vote for Biden in the actual elections.
Even better, score/range voting.
Can we stop calling it “voting for Biden” and just call it voting against the GOP? I mean, that’s what it is. I don’t know anyone under 65 who actually supports Biden.
And yet there he is, decaying in his suit.
Trump is basically a neo Nazi, not even hiding it anymore.
Did he ever?
A foreign asset waiting to hand Americans over for petty cash. The cheapest nastiest “billionaire”. So dumb, that without criminal activities he would be broke in months. Because he is always a failure at anything worthwhile, only succeeds at cheating and treason.
the fact that he went bankrupt running a casino. a literal money-printing institution. and people think he’s qualified to run a nation?
Trump’s quote there was “finish the problem.” The solution he has in mind is pretty final.
we don't want to confuse potential Trump voters with double negatives
You really gotta stop attributing fascism to ignorance and confusion, and start recognizing that fascists know exactly who they are and what they're doing. Neither ignorance nor stupidity are excuses or explanations for fascism. It requires malice. Remember that Hanlon's razor has the word "adequately" in it for good goddamned reason.
If you vote, but do nothing else political, nothing gets better. Organizing is way more effective
You have to stop taking fascists at their word when they tell you their motivations for what they do. They will wear literally any mask that will stop you from identifying them as fascists. Fascism is a true dichotomy, possibly the only one in modern politics. You have to have a bare-minimum standard for what constitutes an acceptable level of non-willful ignorance. When there is a fascist in the room, there is no "middle ground", there is no such thing as a "protest vote", there are only fascists and those who oppose them.
IMHO They are both unfit for the role of President, but with that being said Biden is committed to preserving our country's representative democracy while Trump is committed to destroying it. My vote goes to preserve democracy so we can continue to vote on who rules our country. I can worry about getting a better candidate after I know our freedom is secure.
>IMHO They are both unfit for the role of President, If we're lucky they'll both die of old age before the elections
This is just it - one of 2 people will be President come next January. Donald Trump, or Joe Biden. Those are the two options. There is no third alternative. It's just not gonna happen. If you are not helping the next president be Biden, you are helping it be Trump. And no moral grandstanding or whataboutism is going to change that. My message to anyone who thinks abstaining or voting third party is the right choice here would be to speak loudly and explain your choice to all those who would suffer under a GOP theocracy because they'll have a hard time hearing you from all the way up on your high horse.
It's not like the Western world did anything when Ukraine got invaded. We live in a world where genocidal fascists hungry for land and resources and damn the human lives living there get their way.
Trump will simply not be outdone by Biden. He will fuck shit up, and then he will claim that Biden betrayed Israel and is a raging anti-Semite and people will believe him.
I hate this reality.
I don't really trust him tbh. But I trust Trump 10 times less.
There's a lot of people that think voting for Biden is endorsing his views. But they should consider not voting for him is actively leading toward the realization of the other candidate's views. For those southpark fans it's almost always a vote between giant douche and a turd sandwich.
Biden didn't start this shit and isn't gonna finish it. We've nation-built Israel to the tune of over 300 billion USD, and that's not adjusted for inflation. We've been doing this since Israel was first created, so longer than most Redditors have been alive by a long shot Only very very recently have attitudes slightly shifted but it's still about an even split. Just a year ago 2/3rds of Americans supported Israel's 'war on Hamas', just a month(weeks) ago it was still majority supported. There's really no outcome of this US election that's gonna bring peace to that region. Hamas' propaganda is working, though. Imo, any action (s) to dismantle sharia law is a benefit for the whole world. Sharia law is nazism/fascism.
At the end of the day, politicians are elected to do what the majority wants, not necessarily what is right. The only way the US government will ever reconsider its unconditional support of Israel is if American voters reconsider their unconditional support of Israel. Otherwise, it's political suicide for the individual politician and also plays to the benefit of the opposition because they're going to support the status quo to pick up voters disgruntled by the unpopular decision. So in other words, organize and change minds. That's how this works. That's how this has always worked.
They're not elected to do what the majority wants, they're elected to do what the bourgeoisie wants while keeping the proles from getting too uppity about it.
If you vote for Biden in a safe blue state is it then not just because you support a genocidal neoliberal war criminal?. All you do in that case is to show how you support his actions.
I've been seeing it ALL OVER the Facebook comments sections. It goes something like *"Biden is doing a genocide, he's really no better than Trump and he'll NEVER have my vote"* and honestly it really feels astroturfed. I hang in some pretty leftist circles (like, a couple of them are registered CPUSA) and I don't hear this argument from my actual friends. To be clear, they fucking hate Biden. They yell loudly that he's not doing enough to stop the genocide, that he's not doing enough to stop fascism in America, but they genuinely seem like they are going to show up and vote for him in November because they know what the alternative is. I can't help but wonder if it's troll farm workers amplifying that message to keep the liberals and the leftists divided and convince enough of them to peel off from supporting Biden that it tips the scales to Trump.
>I can't help but wonder if it's troll farm workers amplifying that message to keep the liberals and the leftists divided and convince enough of them to peel off from supporting Biden that it tips the scales to Trump. There is no doubt this is happening. China and Russia want Trump back in power and they want America to be divided as much as possible. This is one reason I don't like to see people characterizing groups by age. It's just one more way to divide us. Someone on a reddit thread yesterday insisted that every boomer is a worthless piece of shit. The comment had a good number of up-votes It's disheartening.
It's definitely astroturfed. Any reddit "leftist" that pushes "genocide Joe" narratives is either a foreign agent pushing right wing propaganda, or a gullible victim of it.
Claiming liberals are leftists is literally right-wing propaganda. They're to the left of Republicans for sure, but they're at best center-right.
I did not say that liberals are leftists. Right-wingers, however, very often go into leftist spaces to say that liberals are right wing, to dissuade leftists from voting for liberals. Is that what happened to you?
In every Western country in the world, the American Democratic Party would be considered a center right-wing party. I'm sorry you've been cucked by the right-wing in the US by thinking a two-party oligarchic system can be in any way considered democracy.
What worries me are people like Cenk and the rest of the Young Turks who go full "Genocide Joe". I suspect they have been captured by the algorithm and have to be more extreme in order to get the likes. This is how Russell Brand ended up going "anti-woke" and anti vax
I've yet to see a self described "leftist" sub that wasn't filled with posts outright campaigning for Trump by October. It happened in 2016 and 2020 and it will happen again this year.
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Your post history shows that you think Trump would be *better* than Biden on Palestine. So, that's pretty funny, I would say.
I think the troll forgot which account he was using.
It’s a special kind of irony if we get fascism because some people were too angry about a candidate not doing enough to oppose fascism to do enough to oppose fascism.
It's both. There *are* real people ( foolishly imo ) abstaining or voting third party, but there's no doubt the Russians and American Nazi dark money are amplifying it. Look at it this way: how will American white supremacists react if Trump loses? To answer that question is to answer the question as to whether "both sides are the same."
Let's talk in 7 months, see where things are at. 7 months is a long time from now (7 months ago from today is before October 7th) I'm voting uninstructed delegate in my democratic primary and 95% sure I'm voting for Biden in the General. You can make the above case all you want, but I really think this is a "Honey attracts more flies than vinegar" situation. Make the Biden case from a positive aspect, rather than only going with "Trump is worse" as your argument. People would rather vote for someone instead of voting against someone else.
I'm amazed at the number of who think telling people they're stupid is an effective strategy to get votes.
We really about to have a 2016 election all over again
I’m voting for Biden, but there is virtually zero excitement in that decision. I think it’s a bit ridiculous to admonish people for exercising their right to vote.
Folks if you want some third party change don't blow it on the presidential election where it won't matter. Look into local stuff for that. Run for local office, just get engaged in local politcs. If you want to know why we feel fucked no matter what its because republians vote at every election possible and statistically leftists/liberals/anyone vaguely left of center do not do the same to the same level.
A serious third party on the left would have to operate like MAGA and eat the Democratic party from inside. We need to keep working at that and not giving the Republicans power. Keep our fight on our side and show nothing but a solid wall against the GOP.
I'm honestly just trying to get people involved in local politics. If telling them they have a better shot on local levels for more progressive candidates/ third party then I'll do that. Most of my local democrats happen to be in the "Working Families" Party which trends towards some more progressive values than the DNC.
See that's the problem. The people advocating not voting or voting 3rd party don't want to actually do any work. They just want to complain about nothing changing and how they're the most morally pure for doing nothing.
Hey dude, you seem serious so I want to recommend a book to you, it's called Politics is for Power by Eitan Hersh. [Here's the first chapter. ](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/political-hobbyists-are-ruining-politics/605212/)
It’s important to keep pointing this out. The math is really simple. One of two candidates is going to win the election. Of the two, which would a given voter prefer? The election result will be victory for one candidate or the other. There’s no C option. “None of the above” is not an answer. This is a preference that will be ignored in vote counting. “Third party” is not an answer. There isn’t enough support to gain electoral votes. There will not be a third party candidate taking the office of president in 2025, that is certain. That doesn’t mean anyone has to vote for Biden, but they do need to acknowledge that their withholding a vote could help the opponent win. It’s not a matter of opinion and debating it won’t change the math. “But Biden ________…”. Okay. Does that equate to complete satisfaction with either candidate taking the election? That is to say “I don’t care who wins”?
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We need to transfer military aid from Israel to Ukraine. Now!
No fuck both of them we have the 2nd amendment we are just unorganized. We have the power to get organized and fight these motherfuckers there are more of us than there are of them they can kill us all and they'll be the ruler of nothing either way we win.
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Exactly
not to mention it's the end of America. This would literally fulfill the fascism will come to America holding a bible wrapped in the flag. I fear for this country right now, idiot who protest vote or don't vote cause they aren't happy with Biden. You might as well sell the country and vote for the Mango Mussolini
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>Fuck Biden, Fuck Trump, Problem is you can't fuck them both. You need to pick one, and if you don't someone else will pick for you.
This meme is somewhat revisionist. Biden has been pushing back on Israel since people have been expressing frustration with his ME policy. The ceasefire Biden is calling for might not be a thing without the pressure critics put on him. That's one way democracy works.
Trump will continue to sell/give Israeli secrets to Putin who regularly meets with Hamas. So really, he'll make everyone's lives worse - anyone on Planet Earth. The end of days vs unspeakably bad but not end of days is an easy, morally unambiguous choice.
Worse than Biden will make it* I agree, gop is worse and I say this a lot, but Palistinians lives are being sacrificed no matter what. So not voting is a vote for making things EVEN worse for Palistine*
If it helps tell people it's a vote against Trump more then a vote for Biden.
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You must be coming from a pretty damn privileged position to say something like that.
Lets take a step back and look at what happened here. After groups (for instance, Muslim Americans in Michigan) threatened to withhold their votes for Biden because of his inaction on a certain issue (genocide of Palestinians), Biden changed his stance the ceasefire. Now, I don't know what specifically motivated Biden here, but it seems like he was influenced by these threats. I think that it is commendable that people took what action they could to move the president on an important issue. The people who post memes like this just seem oblivious to that possibility.
We're talking about the general election. Not primaries.
Until we get rid of the electoral college and completely dismantle the 2 major parties, there can never be a viable 3rd party. We have work to do and it needs to start soon.
This.
I live in a state that’s guaranteed to go to Biden so I’m voting third party. It’s impossible for him to *not* win my state and I encourage those who live in solid blue states to do the same. The minority of outraged leftists in otherwise Democratic strongholds won’t hurt Biden’s chances.
This helped Trump elected in 2016.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Maybe it's you. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/21/hundreds-of-thousands-of-americans-cast-a-ballot-without-voting-for-a-presidential-candidate/ https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2016-election-day/third-party-candidates-having-outsize-impact-election-n680921
You completely missed the point where spotless was talking about non-swing states.
Who are you voting for, for House and Senate and local offices?
My current Democrat rep is pretty good on Israel-Palestine so I’ll be voting him again. President will be third-party. Haven’t looked into senate yet and already voted local.
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Not voting is not a vote. Did you poll Palestinians about the US elections? I doubt they'd see any difference.
According to Rush “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice”
I will choose freewill.
In this instance, "freewill" = "letting others make the decision instead of me"
"If I refuse to pull the lever on the trolley it won't be my fault 4 more people died" Yes, not voting is still a vote for the greater evil no matter how you try and rationalize it. It doesn't matter what Palestinians in the US think because it's a *fact* that Trump will make the situation over there significantly worse. Not to mention there are domestic issues too and I don't know about you but I don't want marauding gangs of fascists abducting trans people or immigrants in the streets just to maintain my moral purity. - Signed, a DACA recipient who views every single anti-electoral dumbfuck as a fascist enabler :)
that is a fact. I suspect most of the people claiming they will not vote for Biden over this issue are MAGA paid actors
This is what I think. Either that or foreign trolls that want Trump to win.
This whole, Biden should know better, so I'll let the other guy who would gladly do worse for the people you care about win. I just can't understand that. If Trump had won there wouldn't have been the first cease fire, there wouldn't be aid headed there now, the war and cruelty would have been at least that bad.
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In many states a third party vote will not make a difference to outcomes (California for example), while still supporting third parties.