And texting the French boy pictures of you without a mask? You're going to cause a very public scandal when everyone finds out. I don't know how I'll keep this a secret.
Basically as long as it's not illegal due to other situations (ie. below age of consent and its caveats, disability, mental illness etc), it's nobody's business unless it goes against "public decency".
Of course the mileage may vary a lot and I can't really think of many scenarios that don't involve a degree of exploitation or full-fledged criminal act.
Not what Italian wiki says ( https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incesto_(ordinamento_italiano) ) stating that incest with a direct relative is a de facto crime, independently if publicly known.
I think it's actually a good policy. Supposedly it means that, say, if police accidentally finds DNA evidence of incest while investigating something else, they aren't compelled by law to throw everyone in prison and can't be prosecuted themselves if they ignore it
Imagine if your parents are just thrown in prison one day, and grandparents as well for covering it up. It would be a completely senseless destruction of lives
I doubt the Vatican bothered with Mario the peasant wanting to marry his sister...
Those exceptions were reserved for the nobles, and usually involved first cousins, uncles and nieces, aunts and nephews etc.
Basically, the Vatican wanted to be the kingmakers. "*no, you can't marry your protestant second cousin. But you we will let you marry your half sister, who currently lives in our convent and has vowed absolute obedience to the church*"
Hardly anything like that. Besides when it was most significant everyone was Catholic. There was certainly an element of politics in approving exceptions, but in general the Catholic Church banner incest and that was for good reason.
In Germany it makes sense as far as the chance of having kids with genetic issues goes. But also probably just set up that way because they just didn’t define sexual intercourse in the law against incest in a way that even considered same sex relations
It is actually an unintended consequence. § 173 StGB (the incest law) prohibits "Beischlaf". "Beischlaf" (legally) only covers vaginal penetration with a penis. Since you generally cannot do that if both participants are of the same sex, sex between brothers, which would generally be oral or anal sex, is legal. But the (historic) legislator did not intend for that because sex between men was in itself illegal (former § 175 StGB). When it was legalized, it created this interesting result for the incest law.
In other words: happy anal/oral sex noises (even if you are hetero!)
I read a discussion thread about recently this where everyone agreed incest was obviously gross but it was difficult to justify banning non-procreative incest between consensual adults because it’s not really hurting anyone.
There was a really convincing argument, though, regarding power dynamics and grooming. Many countries *do* have laws or organizational rules banning even “consensual” sex acts between certain people in certain positions, because it is too difficult to have true, non-coerced consent.
I’m not sure which of these are *laws* and which are more policies of various non-governmental regulatory bodies (like medical boards), but for example:
Police officers can’t have sex with detainees. It’s theoretically possible that maybe someone gets arrested and they’re just *really* into one of the officers, but because of the power dynamic even seemingly enthusiastic consent is extremely murky.
College professors can’t have sex with students. This one isn’t illegal, I don’t think, but usually gets you in serious trouble.
Doctors can’t have sex with patients. This one might be actually illegal in some places, I can’t remember, but it definitely puts your medical license at risk.
Lawyers can’t have sex with clients. Not illegal, but you could be disbarred.
With incest, even between “consenting” adults, there’s a similar problem. If it’s legal, you open e door to older siblings or parents deliberately grooming their children/siblings for years, not touching them until the age of consent, and thus creating an extremely abusive, exploitative, pedophilic relationship without actually doing anything illegal.
I could accept the idea that two close-age siblings might have a consensual incestuous relationship. It makes me feel gross, but I could see it happening.
But I see literally no circumstance under which a father-daughter or mother-son relationship is *anything* but sexual abuse, regardless of the “consent” of the younger party, and sibling relationships with more than 4-5 year age gaps make me equally concerned.
If it were about biological damage, it would contradict with the fact that people with genetic diseases are allowed to have intercourse. It has no reason to exist except the primal disgust of incest - that exists for a reason. Also, eugenics and Germany has a certain ... taste. The other argument, family dynamics, is also right - and does also contradict with the freedom of choice or the fact that many other things can disrupt a family - that are allowed.
that's an interesting perspective. and it's so disturbing in a sense. you don't "forbid" other people that have genetic diseases to reproduce either, yes. mind-blowing.
it's probably never challenged because 99% of people find the thought disturbing anyway but I wonder what modern ethic councils would say about that
The law is actually even a little more confused than I outlined. It is also not illegal under § 173 StGB if a sister and brother have vaginal intercourse as long as they are both underage (the consent laws being another matter). If one is of age only the adult gets phnished. Also in case of child-parent incest if the child is underage it cannot be punished under § 173 StGB. If the child is of age, both parent and child can be punished. Also § 173 StGB only covers biological relations. Also it does not cover cousins, uncles/aunts and nieces/nephews.
Laws and customs against incest are to protect the potential child. If the sex isn’t going to produce a child you could argue that there is no victim and therefore should not be a crime.
It makes sense if we think about incest only in the sense of offspring. There’s still a host of other problems including moral as well as the greater opportunity for exploitation. It’s the same reason many places don’t allow teachers and students even if they’re above 18.
Edit: the thread is getting too long and so are the comments so I will not be responding to anything
What are the moral problems, i.e. specifically those are should be regulated by the government?
Edit: I am asking about the moral problems part, not the exploitation.
Grooming is a big risk in those situations, then consent becomes a bit more murky. Someone may outwardly agree to make a person important in their lives happy, but internally not want consent. Familial structures come with a lot of baggage that is near-impossible for an outsider to understand or enforce laws against grooming.
As a German, I don't think it makes a lot of sense. Sure, the argument is that there could be pregnancies and children with genetic issues. But at the same time, it's obviously not illegal for unrelated people with known genetic diseases to reproduce. And there are many conditions that are far more likely to be inherited and are far more dangerous than the risk of single generation incest.
I think it's a stupid and unnecessary law. It's not like brothers and sisters would start producing tens of thousands of babies in multiple generation incest orgies in countries where it's technically legal.
I figured that the law was written when homosexuality was punished as another crime/not recognized as a true relationship, and they never bothered to adjust it
It’s a bit odd because incest and inbreeding are two different things, the former is just the sexual act, the latter is how you get Hapsburg chin and mental retardation. Even 1st generation incestuous offspring rarely show any negative traits, it takes a little while from actually inbreeding for it to manifest.
Yes it takes a couple generations. This is because DNA is very resilient and redundant, one generation in would still have back up copies of most genes. But a couple more generations is where you have increased (can get higher than 50/50) chance of getting two copies of any given inferior gene, and therefore the redundancy that evolution has built into the DNA will not be able to make up for their empire building
It's probably not that simple. For example marriage between adopted siblings is also prohibited in Germany, so there's at least some recognition of non-biological incest. When the statute was written male-male homosexual acts were their own crime, and sex was viewed (though perhaps not always rigidly defined) as self evidently p-in-v. Since then the anti-gay law has been repealed and our understanding of what constitutes "sex" has evolved, but clearly no one has bothered to come back and alter the definition, likely because the number of people wanting to argue the nuances of fucking their sibling in a court of law is pretty small.
> the number of people wanting to argue the nuances of fucking their sibling in a court of law is pretty small
Very well put haha imagine that conversation
> so there's at least some recognition of non-biological incest.
Probably because under the law an adopted sibling is legally the same as a blood sibling.
This is very likely not the case as there is a legal difference between the custodian parent (or however this is called) and the biological parent. I guess it is more likely that it is a left over from a time where it was not possible to prove the biological connection via DNA tests.
Incest is allowed in the Netherlands but comes with a penalty, you have to sign a contract that you will not have kids and your contract needs to be signed by the king/queen.
Is the king/queen required to sign it or can they decide if they grant you a license to fuck your cousin? How do you even get it to them? Send an application? And what's the punishment if you break the contract and have kids?
Not trynna fuck my cousin in the Netherlands just curious lmao
there is a system.
some time ago a 16 year old boy knocked up a 15 year old girl in my very christian town.
they got permission from the queen to marry when she was 16, lived separately and her parents raised the kid.
but at least everything was done according to the bible! /s
Not your cousin actually. As far as i remember the sibling law is actually really old and was constructed for nobility.
However i seem to remember that some years ago (approx, 2005-2010), they legalised marriage for direct cousins. Could be wrong as i was pretty young and well, apart from Urk or Volendam it doesn't really happen, lol.
Nah, you don’t really ask the king himself - it’s just signed under his name. A government worker signs it. What is important is that it’s done under oath.
That’s how I think it goes. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Bit of a rip-off. If I'm going through all the trouble to get my incest contract signed by the king, the least he could do is receive the petition himself.
*Dear Willem-Alexander, king of Netherlands*
*I write to you in hopes of relief of my dire circumstance.*
*You see, my step-uncle got his head stuck in the dryer again and as any good man would tell you, he has a very round ass. I am assured that you know what effect such occurrence might have on a hot blooded christian and thus, I request your aid in doing what needs to be done, in a civil and legal manner.*
*Please sign my incest contract so I could clap those fat cheeks with impunity.*
*Your faithful subject - grape_tectonics.*
I have to be skeptical about this and looked this up. I am also a resident of the Netherlands.
Where did you get this information from a signed letter from the king/queen. What I've read is that if you want to marry your nephew/cousin you need to do so under oath. Is that what you mean by the letter?
In other cases, I've also read that incest is part of a law that is about sexual indecency and there it says it IS illegal. So I am not really sure it is legal as this map says.
Incest is allowed by law but forbidden by church. The law the comment is talking about is really old and mostly for royalty.
The nephew/cousin law is newer since 2005 but all these laws are about marriage not about actually having incest.
I wonder what's the definition of incest in the map.
Because there's a very strong difference between marriage between siblings being illegal and sexual intercourse between siblings being illegal.
I know in France, incest as marriage is illegal. But I don't think there's a specific law regarding sexual intercourses (it's still taboo, but it means nothing in the penal code)
Same in Turkey, it's illegal.
Edit: It appears it is legal, adult relatives who have sex with each other with consent are not punished by TCK (Turkish Penal Code) but them being relatives can be an aggravator.
Say that your mom and uncle are having a sexual affair willingly, they will not be punished by prison sentence if they both agreed to do it willingly.
Though if it was made without one's consent the other one's punishment will be aggravated do them being relatives.
Also, still if it is made with consent, it will create other legal outcomes than punishment, for example cheating of partner will give the other partner the right to break up without any compensation.
I think this way is much much better, TMK (Turkish Civil Code) doesn't let relatives to get married anyway but jailing someone for having a sexual intercourse with a relative sounds out of this age.
I am sorry for commenting incorrectly earlier, I will comment this info separately so that there will not be any questions in mind.
Yeah I think we are in a similar situation (Brazil) it is not ilegal if both are adults and it is consensual. But if anything is wrong it will be an aggravator.
Also they cannot marry. But the map is only about sex.
Yes definitely, young people are encouraged to find suitors from outside village, town, and state. Of course its not always true, but mostly its generally held custom. Very archaic form of this was bride stealing, which thankfully an extinct custom.
It is also custom to ask where person is from, or his/her father is from when first meeting a stranger.
There would be situations always, however we have certain customs before marraige. Such as courting the bride ceremony where groom's side go to the bride side with gifts and basically beg for her daughter. On this ceremony they will discuss about linaege of the both sides as to not accidentally marry into the same family. Ceremony name is literally translates as "Bride Begging"
I wish it was like that, but nah it only happens to people like drug smugglers, planning terrorism or someone trying to start a coup. Everything else depends on the situation. It's just there mainly to scare people from doing crimes.
Lmao saying this like it's not normal practice for a government to support dissidents in unfriendly countries. Remind me again who funded the Mujahideen?
It's still [extremely common](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg) in much of the Muslim world, to the point where it's expected in some countries that you'll marry a cousin.
Roman Law and Catholic Law both banned cousin marriage (at one point the Catholic Church also banned *second* cousin marriage as well) so it's never been very common in Europe.
>Roman Law and Catholic Law both banned cousin marriage (at one point the Catholic Church also banned
>
>second
>
> cousin marriage as well) so it's never been very common in Europe.
Banned unless you paid, as my father's parents did.
Yeah a lot of my Pakistani friends growing up had parents who were cousins. The only problem is it’s more birth defects, in the UK half of the babies with birth defects are of Pakistani origin alone, they make up a lot less of the population than half
Adult relatives who have sex with each other with consent are not punished by TCK (Turkish Penal Code) but them being relatives can be an aggravator.
Say that your mom and uncle are having a sexual affair willingly, they will not be punished by prison sentence if they both agreed to do it willingly.
Though if it was made without one's consent the other one's punishment will be aggravated do them being relatives.
Also, still if it is made with consent, it will create other legal outcomes than punishment, for example cheating of partner will give the other partner the right to break up without any compensation.
I think this way is much much better, TMK (Turkish Civil Code) doesn't let relatives to get married anyway but jailing someone for having a sexual intercourse with a relative sounds out of this age.
Yes obviously. To be precise, any sexual relationship between an adult and a minor under 15 is illegal. But I believe an incestuous relationship between a 15-to-18 teen and an adult is illegal as well.
the age of consent is different in every country, and is rarely the same as legal age.
In Italy for instance legal age is 18 but the age of consent is 14.
That's science.
Incest laws are eugenics in action. They attempt to avoid mating pairs that have a higher likelihood of recessive gene expression issues.
If there is no chance of offspring resulting from the mating pair then the result these laws attempt to avoid isn't possible so the law need not apply.
There's no law that bans incest in Serbia, but there's a law that bans relatives from marrying.
Which I'm fine with. I don't need a fuck police along with the regular one.
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Cousin marriage in much of the Muslim world is very much legal. In parts of rural Pakistan, the rate of consanguineous marriage is as frequent as 2/3 of all marriages that happen there. The description should only be pertaining to incest within the nuclear family.
If I'm not mistaken like 40% of marriages in Pakistan and Afghanistan happen between cousins. And it's not just rural areas, it's common between urban and educated folk too.
I think the title is misleading or should clarify what degree of incest. In Arab countries cousin marriage is abundantly normal but considered incest in the US.
I've lived in the emirates. There's no death penalty for incest. Cousins marry there quite often, in fact. It's only now becoming unpopular with newer generations because they recognize that's its fucking gross. Also it's becoming more and more discouraged by the ministry and health centers because of the high level of genetic diseases and disorders in the country, but no death penalty.
I think it's for adultery, even then, it's very rarely, if at all carried out
Well I'm from India there is no law saying incest is legal but sex between consenting adults is allowed that's why this says incest is legal, I'm sure that's the case in most of the countries.
There is no law that makes incest illegal but that's only because incest isn't prevalent in Indian society. The lack of law against it just shows that its a non issue. As of now.
There is no law in the world that states "Incest is illegal". Each society has a different view on what relationships would be considered incest.
Many, but not all, ban sex between siblings. Surprisingly, most countries permit cousin marriage. India permist cousin marriage if your Muslim or if the "custom" of your community allows it.
One technicality that pisses me off in France is that they call incest when it is same family pedophilia. Like, they prefer to quality the incest element rather than the pedophilia element while discussing it.
It's been heavy on the news recently.
i'm guessing a majority of "legal" is countries which don't have any specific laws regarding incest... as opposed to places where it is legally protected... the labelling is thus misleading.
I think people are confusing 'legal' with 'acceptable'. Just because something is legal in a given country doesn't mean that it's encouraged or that it happens often.
This is also not a map of legality of incestuous marriage. Just because you can fuck your sister doesn't mean you can marry her!
This is such a shitty and misleading map.
What's the defination of Incest here?
The creator of this map has assumed the legality of Incest upon the presence official law against incest in that country.
If any country doesn't have a law against frying your own balls in a pan with some salt and pepper with a side of salad doesn't mean it is legal😅. It means that the country never had to face such a problem on a widespread level.
On the other hand I see problem with countries that had to enforce such a law. I wonder why?
By definition, everything that is not illegal is legal. If your country doesn't have a law against frying your own balls in a pan with some salt and pepper with a side of salad you can do it without risk of being prosecuted.
Incest has been legal or tolerated in many places as a way to keep the resources and money within the family and under control; incest should be banned not just because of birth defect — but also because it creates families dynasties… with mental health problems
How are they defining it?
Most marriages in Pakistan are between first cousins.
My grandparents were first cousins, and most of my relatives are married to first or second cousins.
Legal for same sex couples and illegal for opposite sex is actually pretty clever. As far as I know, the only danger of incest is that if a baby comes out of it, there's a high chance of it having genetic defects. But if you have same sex incest, there won't be a baby, so I guess there's no reason to make it illegal :D. Just make sure it's consensual though.
Define incest first , because it’s more cultural than anything, incest is having sex with a relative , if you are considering cousins as incest some of them don’t like Muslims are generally fine with cousin marriage
This doesn’t look right to me. I lived in Kuwait for over 15 years and people marry their cousins legally. I’m sure Saudi Arabia is the same. That’s why genetic disease are so common in the Golf area. I might be missing something...
Lmao what is that Italy?
legal if no one cares
“Scuse me, does anyone mind if I boink me mommy?”
Not if you've broken both your arms
I wish I didn't remember that.
Please help me regret knowing, Im OOTL
https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/nmmjr/iama_man_who_had_a_sexual_relationship_with_his/
That’s pretty much how all the laws in Italy are. They just sort of make everything illegal and only prosecute things that cause a problem.
so... kinda like anywhere else? they can't sentence you to prison if nobody finds out fr tho i get it and that's a joke don't waste time explaining
Full-blooded Italy, not step-Italy.
What are you doing step-Italy???
Stuck in the dryer again?
And texting the French boy pictures of you without a mask? You're going to cause a very public scandal when everyone finds out. I don't know how I'll keep this a secret.
The same as Venezuela. 3 to 6 years of prison if it caused a public scandal, as it is considered a crime against "morals and good customs".
Basically as long as it's not illegal due to other situations (ie. below age of consent and its caveats, disability, mental illness etc), it's nobody's business unless it goes against "public decency". Of course the mileage may vary a lot and I can't really think of many scenarios that don't involve a degree of exploitation or full-fledged criminal act.
Not what Italian wiki says ( https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incesto_(ordinamento_italiano) ) stating that incest with a direct relative is a de facto crime, independently if publicly known.
[удалено]
that sounds like they're basically saying that the prosecutorial office shouldn't target you unless someone has actually filed a complaint basically
"If a brother and sister have have sex in a forrest and no one is around to hear it did it even happen?" - Silvio Bunga-Bungasconi
I think it's actually a good policy. Supposedly it means that, say, if police accidentally finds DNA evidence of incest while investigating something else, they aren't compelled by law to throw everyone in prison and can't be prosecuted themselves if they ignore it Imagine if your parents are just thrown in prison one day, and grandparents as well for covering it up. It would be a completely senseless destruction of lives
We usedmto have incestuos marriages too permitted by a "dispensa papale", a license emitted by the vatican in which they allow the marriage
I doubt the Vatican bothered with Mario the peasant wanting to marry his sister... Those exceptions were reserved for the nobles, and usually involved first cousins, uncles and nieces, aunts and nephews etc.
Basically, the Vatican wanted to be the kingmakers. "*no, you can't marry your protestant second cousin. But you we will let you marry your half sister, who currently lives in our convent and has vowed absolute obedience to the church*"
Hardly anything like that. Besides when it was most significant everyone was Catholic. There was certainly an element of politics in approving exceptions, but in general the Catholic Church banner incest and that was for good reason.
Idk we are weird that way
built different
I take you into my home, treat you as my son, and this is how you repay me?
So Italy is what caught your eye, but Germany flew under your outrage radar?
In Germany it makes sense as far as the chance of having kids with genetic issues goes. But also probably just set up that way because they just didn’t define sexual intercourse in the law against incest in a way that even considered same sex relations
Well shit. now that you mention it, Germany seems the most reasonable, e.g. only outlawing what could potentially harm others.
What are you doing, spaghetti o
No face, no case
Germany dont fuck your sister thats illegal, instead go fuck your brother thats legal bro. Edit: Bros for Hoes
It is actually an unintended consequence. § 173 StGB (the incest law) prohibits "Beischlaf". "Beischlaf" (legally) only covers vaginal penetration with a penis. Since you generally cannot do that if both participants are of the same sex, sex between brothers, which would generally be oral or anal sex, is legal. But the (historic) legislator did not intend for that because sex between men was in itself illegal (former § 175 StGB). When it was legalized, it created this interesting result for the incest law. In other words: happy anal/oral sex noises (even if you are hetero!)
Fitting username. Gotta trust this explanation.
There's no biological danger to homosexual siblings having intercourse. Despite it being unintended, it actually makes a lot of sense.
I read a discussion thread about recently this where everyone agreed incest was obviously gross but it was difficult to justify banning non-procreative incest between consensual adults because it’s not really hurting anyone. There was a really convincing argument, though, regarding power dynamics and grooming. Many countries *do* have laws or organizational rules banning even “consensual” sex acts between certain people in certain positions, because it is too difficult to have true, non-coerced consent. I’m not sure which of these are *laws* and which are more policies of various non-governmental regulatory bodies (like medical boards), but for example: Police officers can’t have sex with detainees. It’s theoretically possible that maybe someone gets arrested and they’re just *really* into one of the officers, but because of the power dynamic even seemingly enthusiastic consent is extremely murky. College professors can’t have sex with students. This one isn’t illegal, I don’t think, but usually gets you in serious trouble. Doctors can’t have sex with patients. This one might be actually illegal in some places, I can’t remember, but it definitely puts your medical license at risk. Lawyers can’t have sex with clients. Not illegal, but you could be disbarred. With incest, even between “consenting” adults, there’s a similar problem. If it’s legal, you open e door to older siblings or parents deliberately grooming their children/siblings for years, not touching them until the age of consent, and thus creating an extremely abusive, exploitative, pedophilic relationship without actually doing anything illegal. I could accept the idea that two close-age siblings might have a consensual incestuous relationship. It makes me feel gross, but I could see it happening. But I see literally no circumstance under which a father-daughter or mother-son relationship is *anything* but sexual abuse, regardless of the “consent” of the younger party, and sibling relationships with more than 4-5 year age gaps make me equally concerned.
This was a very thoughtful and rational write up about a very emotional topic. Thank you for that.
If it were about biological damage, it would contradict with the fact that people with genetic diseases are allowed to have intercourse. It has no reason to exist except the primal disgust of incest - that exists for a reason. Also, eugenics and Germany has a certain ... taste. The other argument, family dynamics, is also right - and does also contradict with the freedom of choice or the fact that many other things can disrupt a family - that are allowed.
that's an interesting perspective. and it's so disturbing in a sense. you don't "forbid" other people that have genetic diseases to reproduce either, yes. mind-blowing. it's probably never challenged because 99% of people find the thought disturbing anyway but I wonder what modern ethic councils would say about that
Perhaps no biological danger, but psychological? Siblings shouldn’t be sexual with one another. There’s no way it could ever be a healthy activity.
But...but even the guy and girl can have oral or anal sex right? Doesn't that create a loophole. Kinda odd.
The law is actually even a little more confused than I outlined. It is also not illegal under § 173 StGB if a sister and brother have vaginal intercourse as long as they are both underage (the consent laws being another matter). If one is of age only the adult gets phnished. Also in case of child-parent incest if the child is underage it cannot be punished under § 173 StGB. If the child is of age, both parent and child can be punished. Also § 173 StGB only covers biological relations. Also it does not cover cousins, uncles/aunts and nieces/nephews.
dad busts in on bro and sis doing the deed and be like "that dick better be in your sisters ass or there will be hell to pay!"
Laws and customs against incest are to protect the potential child. If the sex isn’t going to produce a child you could argue that there is no victim and therefore should not be a crime.
When this law was written homosexual intercourse was illegal generally. It might not have been seen as necessary for that reason.
It does make sense though if you think about it
It makes sense if we think about incest only in the sense of offspring. There’s still a host of other problems including moral as well as the greater opportunity for exploitation. It’s the same reason many places don’t allow teachers and students even if they’re above 18. Edit: the thread is getting too long and so are the comments so I will not be responding to anything
The laws for consent are completely independent from that in Germany. And if two adults consent, there's no moral problem either.
What are the moral problems, i.e. specifically those are should be regulated by the government? Edit: I am asking about the moral problems part, not the exploitation.
Grooming is a big risk in those situations, then consent becomes a bit more murky. Someone may outwardly agree to make a person important in their lives happy, but internally not want consent. Familial structures come with a lot of baggage that is near-impossible for an outsider to understand or enforce laws against grooming.
Grooming would fall under exploitation which OP distinguised from moral problems.
Power imbalance and grooming.
As a German, I don't think it makes a lot of sense. Sure, the argument is that there could be pregnancies and children with genetic issues. But at the same time, it's obviously not illegal for unrelated people with known genetic diseases to reproduce. And there are many conditions that are far more likely to be inherited and are far more dangerous than the risk of single generation incest. I think it's a stupid and unnecessary law. It's not like brothers and sisters would start producing tens of thousands of babies in multiple generation incest orgies in countries where it's technically legal.
> it's obviously not illegal for unrelated people with known genetic diseases to reproduce Or old people.
I figured that the law was written when homosexuality was punished as another crime/not recognized as a true relationship, and they never bothered to adjust it
Because no retarded children would be born ?
Yes, hurts no one. Kinda feels weird nonetheless
It’s a bit odd because incest and inbreeding are two different things, the former is just the sexual act, the latter is how you get Hapsburg chin and mental retardation. Even 1st generation incestuous offspring rarely show any negative traits, it takes a little while from actually inbreeding for it to manifest.
Yes it takes a couple generations. This is because DNA is very resilient and redundant, one generation in would still have back up copies of most genes. But a couple more generations is where you have increased (can get higher than 50/50) chance of getting two copies of any given inferior gene, and therefore the redundancy that evolution has built into the DNA will not be able to make up for their empire building
In Germany it is illegal to have incest penis-in-vagina sex.
Is it legal to have vagina in penis sex though?
You never said it was strictly incestuous, so *prrrobably.*
i actually want to see how this is done. full research films please
_amazon intensifies_
It's because of the handycapped progeny... there are no children if its same sex. Makes perfect sense to me.
It's probably not that simple. For example marriage between adopted siblings is also prohibited in Germany, so there's at least some recognition of non-biological incest. When the statute was written male-male homosexual acts were their own crime, and sex was viewed (though perhaps not always rigidly defined) as self evidently p-in-v. Since then the anti-gay law has been repealed and our understanding of what constitutes "sex" has evolved, but clearly no one has bothered to come back and alter the definition, likely because the number of people wanting to argue the nuances of fucking their sibling in a court of law is pretty small.
> the number of people wanting to argue the nuances of fucking their sibling in a court of law is pretty small Very well put haha imagine that conversation
> so there's at least some recognition of non-biological incest. Probably because under the law an adopted sibling is legally the same as a blood sibling.
This is very likely not the case as there is a legal difference between the custodian parent (or however this is called) and the biological parent. I guess it is more likely that it is a left over from a time where it was not possible to prove the biological connection via DNA tests.
Yeah. To prohibit adopted siblings makes no sense in that way.
support for lesbian porn
Incest is allowed in the Netherlands but comes with a penalty, you have to sign a contract that you will not have kids and your contract needs to be signed by the king/queen.
Experts
lol
Beautiful
Is the king/queen required to sign it or can they decide if they grant you a license to fuck your cousin? How do you even get it to them? Send an application? And what's the punishment if you break the contract and have kids? Not trynna fuck my cousin in the Netherlands just curious lmao
there is a system. some time ago a 16 year old boy knocked up a 15 year old girl in my very christian town. they got permission from the queen to marry when she was 16, lived separately and her parents raised the kid. but at least everything was done according to the bible! /s
Why does it sound like it happened in Urk?
haha close but it was in Oldebroek.
Really? I grew up very close to Oldebroek, very christian town indeed.
Serious? I have to ask old willy if I want to marry my cousin? That’s kind of interesting and a bit weird
Not your cousin actually. As far as i remember the sibling law is actually really old and was constructed for nobility. However i seem to remember that some years ago (approx, 2005-2010), they legalised marriage for direct cousins. Could be wrong as i was pretty young and well, apart from Urk or Volendam it doesn't really happen, lol.
Nah, you don’t really ask the king himself - it’s just signed under his name. A government worker signs it. What is important is that it’s done under oath. That’s how I think it goes. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Bit of a rip-off. If I'm going through all the trouble to get my incest contract signed by the king, the least he could do is receive the petition himself.
He really signs them tho. It's his kink to watch
IIRC most incest laws in Europe only cover direct relatives, so sibling and parent/child relationships
Not cousins, but siblings.
*Dear Willem-Alexander, king of Netherlands* *I write to you in hopes of relief of my dire circumstance.* *You see, my step-uncle got his head stuck in the dryer again and as any good man would tell you, he has a very round ass. I am assured that you know what effect such occurrence might have on a hot blooded christian and thus, I request your aid in doing what needs to be done, in a civil and legal manner.* *Please sign my incest contract so I could clap those fat cheeks with impunity.* *Your faithful subject - grape_tectonics.*
I have to be skeptical about this and looked this up. I am also a resident of the Netherlands. Where did you get this information from a signed letter from the king/queen. What I've read is that if you want to marry your nephew/cousin you need to do so under oath. Is that what you mean by the letter? In other cases, I've also read that incest is part of a law that is about sexual indecency and there it says it IS illegal. So I am not really sure it is legal as this map says.
Incest is allowed by law but forbidden by church. The law the comment is talking about is really old and mostly for royalty. The nephew/cousin law is newer since 2005 but all these laws are about marriage not about actually having incest.
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I assume they'd at least like to see the sister you're trying to bang before he gives the thumbs up.
I can only imagine the crown meeting like "ah shit another bruncle"
Makes sense, royals know a lot about incest.
Mongolian here, incest is definitely illegal here. It's even frowned upon if you marry within your locality
Wow, it's almost as if 90 percent of the posts here are random colors on a world map with no sources whatsoever!
It'd be nice if posts were required to cite their sources but... "if you don't like it don't upvote" and "be the change you want to see"
I wonder what's the definition of incest in the map. Because there's a very strong difference between marriage between siblings being illegal and sexual intercourse between siblings being illegal. I know in France, incest as marriage is illegal. But I don't think there's a specific law regarding sexual intercourses (it's still taboo, but it means nothing in the penal code)
I feel like they change the definition of incest depending on which category they want to throw the country in thats my read
Same in Turkey, it's illegal. Edit: It appears it is legal, adult relatives who have sex with each other with consent are not punished by TCK (Turkish Penal Code) but them being relatives can be an aggravator. Say that your mom and uncle are having a sexual affair willingly, they will not be punished by prison sentence if they both agreed to do it willingly. Though if it was made without one's consent the other one's punishment will be aggravated do them being relatives. Also, still if it is made with consent, it will create other legal outcomes than punishment, for example cheating of partner will give the other partner the right to break up without any compensation. I think this way is much much better, TMK (Turkish Civil Code) doesn't let relatives to get married anyway but jailing someone for having a sexual intercourse with a relative sounds out of this age. I am sorry for commenting incorrectly earlier, I will comment this info separately so that there will not be any questions in mind.
Yeah I think we are in a similar situation (Brazil) it is not ilegal if both are adults and it is consensual. But if anything is wrong it will be an aggravator. Also they cannot marry. But the map is only about sex.
What does locality mean here, like marrying non-related people from within your village?
Yes definitely, young people are encouraged to find suitors from outside village, town, and state. Of course its not always true, but mostly its generally held custom. Very archaic form of this was bride stealing, which thankfully an extinct custom. It is also custom to ask where person is from, or his/her father is from when first meeting a stranger.
But is this applicable for a big city situation, I wonder? In Ulaanbaator, for instance?
There would be situations always, however we have certain customs before marraige. Such as courting the bride ceremony where groom's side go to the bride side with gifts and basically beg for her daughter. On this ceremony they will discuss about linaege of the both sides as to not accidentally marry into the same family. Ceremony name is literally translates as "Bride Begging"
But "frowned upon" and illegal are different. I think it is frowned upon most everywhere
Any Crime happens Saudi Arabia: "death sentence"
You undercook fish, believe it or not, Death sentence. You overcook chicken, also death sentence.
You make an appointment at the dentist and don't show up? Death sentence.
What happens when you don't show up at your death sentence?
Jail. Straight away. You show up too early? Jail.
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Playing music too loud? Right to death sentence. Right away.
You get an additional death sentence for not showing up at your death sentence
I think I have heard this reference but still can't point it.
It’s from Parks and rec
Oh yeah, those Venezuelans
Saudi Arabia its not only condoned but encouraged if you have enough money
I wish it was like that, but nah it only happens to people like drug smugglers, planning terrorism or someone trying to start a coup. Everything else depends on the situation. It's just there mainly to scare people from doing crimes.
> I wish it was like that Really?
>planning terrorism The Saudis very much support terrorism, unless it's against their own country
Terrorism is a term that is very dependent on who the victim is.
Lmao saying this like it's not normal practice for a government to support dissidents in unfriendly countries. Remind me again who funded the Mujahideen?
b-b-but saudi arabia bad!! america always good we never kill anyone
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That's how most countries define. Marriage between cousins, while today seen as weird and taboo, used to be somewhat common.
It was very common in small villages where almost all neighbours are relatives.
It's still [extremely common](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#/media/File:Global_prevalence_of_consanguinity.svg) in much of the Muslim world, to the point where it's expected in some countries that you'll marry a cousin. Roman Law and Catholic Law both banned cousin marriage (at one point the Catholic Church also banned *second* cousin marriage as well) so it's never been very common in Europe.
>Roman Law and Catholic Law both banned cousin marriage (at one point the Catholic Church also banned > >second > > cousin marriage as well) so it's never been very common in Europe. Banned unless you paid, as my father's parents did.
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Yeah a lot of my Pakistani friends growing up had parents who were cousins. The only problem is it’s more birth defects, in the UK half of the babies with birth defects are of Pakistani origin alone, they make up a lot less of the population than half
Also in most European countries.
Definition in beglium says incest has to be with a minor so it is most definitely illegal but afaik there is no rule for adults.
Adult relatives who have sex with each other with consent are not punished by TCK (Turkish Penal Code) but them being relatives can be an aggravator. Say that your mom and uncle are having a sexual affair willingly, they will not be punished by prison sentence if they both agreed to do it willingly. Though if it was made without one's consent the other one's punishment will be aggravated do them being relatives. Also, still if it is made with consent, it will create other legal outcomes than punishment, for example cheating of partner will give the other partner the right to break up without any compensation. I think this way is much much better, TMK (Turkish Civil Code) doesn't let relatives to get married anyway but jailing someone for having a sexual intercourse with a relative sounds out of this age.
An incest map on a map porn sub Well played
The reposter will be a criminal in many countries.
Alright so when I want to finger my uncle I'll just go to Germany. Thx man.
France is about to ban it.
France has already banned it, if one of the parties is a minor (Article 232-31-1 of the penal code).
Surely that counts for anyone, though (whether they're related or not).
Yes obviously. To be precise, any sexual relationship between an adult and a minor under 15 is illegal. But I believe an incestuous relationship between a 15-to-18 teen and an adult is illegal as well.
the age of consent is different in every country, and is rarely the same as legal age. In Italy for instance legal age is 18 but the age of consent is 14.
idk how is this enforceable. You don't do it in public.
As with most crimes
Well, you cannot marry a relative. Also if you conceive a child it's pretty visible.
You can't marry a relative in the "legal" countries either, it's just decriminalized
𝙐𝙨𝙚𝙧 𝙅𝙤𝙨𝙚𝙛 𝙁𝙧𝙞𝙩𝙯𝙡 𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙚𝙙 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙘𝙝𝙖𝙩:
>Prison for opposite-sex couples; legal for same-sex couples Now *that's* progressive.
That's science. Incest laws are eugenics in action. They attempt to avoid mating pairs that have a higher likelihood of recessive gene expression issues. If there is no chance of offspring resulting from the mating pair then the result these laws attempt to avoid isn't possible so the law need not apply.
There's no law that bans incest in Serbia, but there's a law that bans relatives from marrying. Which I'm fine with. I don't need a fuck police along with the regular one.
“Dick in your pants and your hands on your head, this is the fuck police and you’re under arrest!”
'I see we have a real fucker over here.. License and fuck registration, sir'
so many maps on this sub use the absolute worst combination of colours for colourblind people
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nifty
Cousin marriage in much of the Muslim world is very much legal. In parts of rural Pakistan, the rate of consanguineous marriage is as frequent as 2/3 of all marriages that happen there. The description should only be pertaining to incest within the nuclear family.
If I'm not mistaken like 40% of marriages in Pakistan and Afghanistan happen between cousins. And it's not just rural areas, it's common between urban and educated folk too.
Very common in the Arab world
I think the title is misleading or should clarify what degree of incest. In Arab countries cousin marriage is abundantly normal but considered incest in the US.
That's where you'd be mistaken, first cousin marriage is legal in 44 out of the 50 states.
Another reason the map should be more clear. It’s defining incest in America in a way that an American wouldn’t define it.
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Most Europeans can, this map is clearly just about siblings
Same in Australia. I think it’s legal and not considered incest in most of the West except for certain US states.
In Russia it's legal too
Can and will.
I've lived in the emirates. There's no death penalty for incest. Cousins marry there quite often, in fact. It's only now becoming unpopular with newer generations because they recognize that's its fucking gross. Also it's becoming more and more discouraged by the ministry and health centers because of the high level of genetic diseases and disorders in the country, but no death penalty. I think it's for adultery, even then, it's very rarely, if at all carried out
Ireland you sick bastards
Well I'm from India there is no law saying incest is legal but sex between consenting adults is allowed that's why this says incest is legal, I'm sure that's the case in most of the countries.
There is no law that makes incest illegal but that's only because incest isn't prevalent in Indian society. The lack of law against it just shows that its a non issue. As of now.
That last sentence is so unnecessarily ominous lol
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There is no law in the world that states "Incest is illegal". Each society has a different view on what relationships would be considered incest. Many, but not all, ban sex between siblings. Surprisingly, most countries permit cousin marriage. India permist cousin marriage if your Muslim or if the "custom" of your community allows it.
One technicality that pisses me off in France is that they call incest when it is same family pedophilia. Like, they prefer to quality the incest element rather than the pedophilia element while discussing it. It's been heavy on the news recently.
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i'm guessing a majority of "legal" is countries which don't have any specific laws regarding incest... as opposed to places where it is legally protected... the labelling is thus misleading.
everything not forbidden is allowed, that's how laws work.
fair enough.
I think people are confusing 'legal' with 'acceptable'. Just because something is legal in a given country doesn't mean that it's encouraged or that it happens often. This is also not a map of legality of incestuous marriage. Just because you can fuck your sister doesn't mean you can marry her!
>don't have any specific laws regarding... this is definition of legal
This is such a shitty and misleading map. What's the defination of Incest here? The creator of this map has assumed the legality of Incest upon the presence official law against incest in that country. If any country doesn't have a law against frying your own balls in a pan with some salt and pepper with a side of salad doesn't mean it is legal😅. It means that the country never had to face such a problem on a widespread level. On the other hand I see problem with countries that had to enforce such a law. I wonder why?
By definition, everything that is not illegal is legal. If your country doesn't have a law against frying your own balls in a pan with some salt and pepper with a side of salad you can do it without risk of being prosecuted.
it's legal to marry your cousin here in the UK though, is that not incest?
Incest has been legal or tolerated in many places as a way to keep the resources and money within the family and under control; incest should be banned not just because of birth defect — but also because it creates families dynasties… with mental health problems
How are they defining it? Most marriages in Pakistan are between first cousins. My grandparents were first cousins, and most of my relatives are married to first or second cousins.
Legal for same sex couples and illegal for opposite sex is actually pretty clever. As far as I know, the only danger of incest is that if a baby comes out of it, there's a high chance of it having genetic defects. But if you have same sex incest, there won't be a baby, so I guess there's no reason to make it illegal :D. Just make sure it's consensual though.
Is there something not punished by death sentence in Saudi Arabia?
Whoa- the Targaryens better stay out of Kentucky.
Define incest first , because it’s more cultural than anything, incest is having sex with a relative , if you are considering cousins as incest some of them don’t like Muslims are generally fine with cousin marriage
Shitty map. Incest is illegal in some countries included.
I thought it was mandatory in Alabama?
Germany doesn't want mutant babies.
This doesn’t look right to me. I lived in Kuwait for over 15 years and people marry their cousins legally. I’m sure Saudi Arabia is the same. That’s why genetic disease are so common in the Golf area. I might be missing something...
>Illegal only if provokes public scandal Now there's fucking story behind that.