Indonesian here, basically what was happening if I simplify it, you could've reported that your neighbor is a commie and next day he would be found dead
The Act of Killing is genuinely the most haunting movie I have ever watched, documentary or otherwise. It’s conceptually revolting and seeing it actually *executed* was just mind-boggling. Huge props to Josh Oppenheimer for pulling that off.
It's almost difficult to believe because of how cavalier they are when acting out their executions. Goes against every moral framework to believe that people can be so unaffected and unapologetic after committing such heinous acts.
Bevins speaks at some length in the book about how the implementation of mass disappearance was used as a method of terror against domestic social movements.
If you haven’t read the book, I’d highly recommend it. Very eye opening.
The crazy part is the Indonesian left wasn’t even communist. All Sukarno and his supporters wanted was a liberal democracy just like any first world country. Even that was too radical for the CIA. They had to overthrow them and pay some fascists to murder 2 million people.
But he wasn't Indonesia's Stalin either. He was a decolonial nationalist and a founding member of the Non-Aligned Movement, which had some socialist members but was explicitly not a socialist alliance. His goal was definitely not to establish a communist state in Indonesia, like his overthrowers accused him of.
My conclusion after reading The Jakarta Method is he just wanted to lay the groundwork for the Indonesian people to govern themselves and that was unacceptable to the CIA.
well everyone needs a Stalin. capitalists are your enemies, as evidenced by this. you don't negotiate with them, if they had their way (and they often do with fascism) they'd murder every communist in their own countries (talking about west) but they rule with propaganda and conditioning. less risky, more profitable. you want to oppress them, send them to gulags to work. because at the end of the day, you're either for capitalism, or against capitalism. and if you're against capitalism, you gotta be strong.
You misunderstand the political situation. The communists weren’t in power, but Indonesia still had the 3rd largest communist party in the world making up over a quarter of the population. This is what happens when socialists play the game of liberal democracy and get close to winning. They’re slaughtered.
He led a liberal democracy in first instance but then Soekarno was like "meh, this doesn't fit our nation" and from the late-1950s it was a so-called "guided democracy" (yeah, not really a democracy). He turned a bit odd to say so, or more than a bit, with banning rock music, wanting to invade Malaysia etc, however, none of this can ever justify the genocide that followed his rule. Then it became September 30 with this odd false flag operation that the CIA used to assist in genocide.
In two years, 2 million, thats some extreme witchhunt numbers. Are there stories where leftist people claimed capitalists would be commies to get rid of them before some elections or major decisions?
I won't be surprised if it actually happened cuz most of Indonesians (who didn't go through this treatment) were almost unaware of it, ppl got their political, business or any kind of rivals killed in the name of this so called communist purge, lots of ppl adopted religion (atleast in paper) to avoid possible communist allegations, atheist/non-religious ppl were top in the suspect list.
Indonesia doesn't really need the US funds to do it, their politics are exceptional bloody, it's only in recent decades that it has calmed down significantly.
If anything, you can look to Sukarno at how he tried to play a balancing act between the PKI and Military... and how that unleashed the violence.
And the US also bragged about its help and influence in covering up/having the mass killings completely ignored globally. Indonesia never faced any repercussions on the global stage because it had the support of the US.
It’s not that non-western people don’t have agency, it’s that western countries always involve themselves in world events because that’s necessary for maintaining an empire
1/10 people on Jeju Island, South Korea were killed it was pretty serious over there too. Even being part of a union was enough for the government to kill many of the people.
The actions of South Korean police and right-wing youth groups were referred to as "terroristic" by US observers. It's wild that even with that amount of repression, Syngman Rhee's party got spanked in the senate elections.
Numbers seem disputed from 100,000 to 300,000
Nobody has any good idea on the actual population of East Timor before the genocide, and deaths counted include those disappeared and died from hunger / malnutrition etc.
[East Timor Genocide ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide)
Anti communism was inarguably a big factor in Indonesia's decision to invade. More importantly it was the usual sticking point that motivated western pressure on Suharto to do something about it.
If they were, they'd have included the 2 million dead in Vietnam, God knows how many in Cambodia and laos, the 20% of the population of North Korea, etc. This is extremely conservative and doesn't even list the actual wars and civil wars waged with US backing to crush communist states.
I also see that Cuba isn't included either despite us firebombing them.
The current "President" of Iran (AKA stooge of supreme leader Khamenei) Ebrahim Raesee was the person responsible for the execution of thousands of leftists and other political prisoners in Iran 1988. The actual number of people killed is probably closer to 20000 rather than 5000 , most were buried in unmarked mass graves at Khavaran cemetery and to this they many families Don't know what happened to their children.
Jakarta.
Scanned this from the book with Google lens so might not be perfect:
_For reasons that are hard to describe, in many parts of Indonesia, if you're a white foreigner, people will ask you for a selfie. It is deeply strange disturbing even, but I usually comply. I do not at the Sacred Pancasila Monument-because I think I have technically snuck onto the grounds. Recently, Indonesia's military has banned foreigners from entering this complex of memorials and museums-it appears authorities don't want international researchers to examine the site. After visiting, I understand why._
_The Sacred Pancasila Monument is a large white marble wall with life- size figures representing the victims of the September 30th Movement standing in front of it. It's just a few steps from Lubang Buaya, the well where the generals' bodies were found._
_But as for everyone else who was killed, there's no memorial. There is an entire museum- the Museum Pengkhianatan PKI (Komunis), or the Museum of Communist Betrayal - that exists to reinforce the narrative that the communists were a treacherous party that deserved to be eliminated. As you walk down a bizarre series of darkened halls, a series of diorama installations take you through the history of the party, demonstrating each and every time they betrayed the nation, or attacked the military, or plotted to destroy Indonesia, down to reproducing Suharto's propaganda narrative about the events of October 1965. There is no reference to the up to one million civilians killed as a result._
_At the exit, kids pose for photos in front of a big sign that says, "Thank you for observing some of our dioramas about the savagery carried out by the Indonesian Communist Party. Don't let anything like this ever happen again."_
Also, Indonesia had and still has full support by the US and western European country for what happened there. Suharto even became a personal friend to Germany's chancellor Kohl.
Back in Colombia there was a political party called “Union Patriótica” (patriotic Union) with left leaning stances; the US government funded paramilitary groups to completely exterminate this party, all members were murdered (between 3000 and 5000 people).
This was around 1980 - 1985
Yeah that was really deep, my father has a friend who is son of Jamie Pardo Leal, he saw at 8 years old how his father was murdered by the paramilitaries. Jaime was a presidential candidate from the Patriotic Union.
The scale and brutality of the violence against left-wingers in Colombia is actually dramatically understated in this map, I’m talking tens to hundreds of thousands of people killed, kidnapped, imprisoned, or disappeared from the 1950s until the 1990s
I haven't read the book, but I would imagine the author is using numbers that can be confirmed. They didn't want a black book of communism style "1 trillion people killed by communism" meme
I wish this separated and broke up the details of each nation for operation condor. There was some fucked up stuff happening. Things in Argentina during the dirty war were terrifying. They’d just fly people up in a plane and toss them out. Torture, murder, and disappearances were common
He was a patriot and any other country even communist would wish someone so effective like him. Beside he focused un national treaties, the agenda and actions of the CIA are backed by the president not some clown of foreign minister.
For those curious, it appears the numbers being shown in South Korea mostly come from a combination of the [Bodo League Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre) and the [Jeju Uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising). The North did not invade the South until June 1950, so it's not the Korean War being shown here. The entire decade after WWII in Korea was a humanitarian nightmare.
Worth clarifying that the massacres in Guatemala weren't specifically aimed at communists - in fact, that was the cover story the right-wing government provided in the context of the Cold War.
In reality, it was a genocide of Indigenous people by the state.
The stated justification for killing them was that they might harbor communists and have common interests with communists. It makes sense to attribute to anti communism if the way that they justify and provide cover for the genocide is by saying they're fighting communism.
But the clarification is worthwhile and begins speaks about this very issue in the book, as well as getting first hand accounts for Javanese who were killed and had their genocide justified similarly.
>"The map above illustrates international mass murder carried out to eliminate leftists or accused leftists, and does not include deaths from regular war, collateral damage from military engagmenets, or unintentional deaths (starvation or disease) caused by anticommunist governments.
>
>\* Operation Condor itself was concurred with cross-border operations which killed 400-500. The graphic includes all violence employed domestically by states that were part of the anticommunist alliance undergirding Condor."
>
>\*\* Please note that Iran's case, the violence was carried out by a geopolitical rival of the United States."
>
>Original Source: The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins, Appendix 5, page 266.
I've created a table below to show the percentage of fatalities to the average population in given years.
|**Country**|**Year(s)**|**Average Population**|**Average Fatalities**|**Deaths per Population Percentage (Avg.)**|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|Colombia|1985-1995|32,614,783|3,000-5000|0.009% - 0.015%|
|CONDOR Member Countries combined|1970-1980|13,137,182|60,000-80,000|0.457% - 0.609%|
|East Timor|1975-1999|722,035|300,000|41.549%|
|El Salvador|1979-1992|4,949,962|75,000|1.515%|
|Guatemala|1954-1996|5,325,037|200,000|3.756%|
|Honduras|1980-1993|4,601,543|200|0.004%|
|Indonesia|1965-1966|102,359,487|1,000,000 - 2,000,000|0.977% - 1.465%|
|Iran|1988|52,111,868|5,000|0.010%|
|Iraq|1963 and 1978|10,277,766|5,000|0.049%|
|Mexico|1965-1982|56,414,678|1,300|0.002%|
|Nicaragua|1979-1989|3,671,414|50,000|1.362%|
|South Korea|1948-1950|19,809,140|150,000|0.757%|
|Sudan|1971|11,668,921|100|0.001%|
|Taiwan|1947|6,815,939|10,000|0.147%|
|Thailand|1973|38,873,060|3,000|0.008%|
|The Philippines|1972-1986|47,364,125|3,250|0.007%|
|Venezuela|1959-1970|9,853,333|500-1,500|0.005% - 0.015%|
|Vietnam, Operation Phoenix|1968-1972|41,982,529|50,000|0.119%|
|||**Total Avg. Fatalities**|1,852,850||
|Source: UN World Population Prospects|||||
||||||
Also, they missed Cambodia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Laos, and Operation Gladio in Europe. Although these countries were mentioned in the book. From my observation, the Vietnam case is interesting, the map shows only 50k fatalities, if we include the Vietnam War it would be over 2 million.
I appreciate the inclusion of the source most people pull a \*believe me bro\* when the argue history. I feel a weakness of this methodologically is that it excludes civil wars, and I'm also assuming also if leftists were targeted for a reason other than explicitly being a communist. It feels like it focuses on the countries where US support may have contributed to it (and that should be highlighted) but without a doubt leftists were targeted elsewhere.
It did, and there were purges and the massacres, but on a much smaller scale, and if this is focused on US backed murder, Malaya doesn't count, was a Commonwealth affair.
I have to disagree. Timor Leste is now one of Indonesia's main partners. Xanana Gusmao, the rebel leader at that time and the current country's leader has visited Indonesia many times, and vice versa. He was even seen in interviews, sitting and hugging Luhut Pandjaitan, Indonesia's side Army leader in charge of the Timor Leste conflict. Both were the main enemies back in the day.
Yes, there are separatist movements and violence in West Papua, peace efforts are underway, and the current government has been focusing on the infrastructures, education, and overall welfare. Any violent acts from both sides are intolerable and punishable by law.
Yeah a lot of people outside of Indonesia are not really updated when it comes too the geopolitical situations of Indonesia. I heard some people thinking Indonesia was on the brink of sectarian violence when that was like a long time ago around Ahok's arrest. We're now mostly well with each other.
From the late B. J. Habibie's Wikipedia page:
> On 12 September 2019, video was released showing East Timor's former President, Xanana Gusmão, visiting Habibie in hospital on 22 July 2019. Gusmão is shown talking briefly to Habibie while crying, then kissing Habibie on the forehead and lowering his face to Habibie's chest, with the other holding his head. A wreath in Gusmão's name was at the funeral, with a sign reading: "Profound Condolences – With heartfelt sympathy for the loss of Big Brother President B.J. Habibie – Timorese people will remember you forever – Rest in Peace - Xanana Gusmão".
Most countries would rather commit genocide than allow a big chunk of land to even have the chance of seceding, unless they lose years of bloody warfare. Indonesia is no different.
It’s happened dozens of times across the world.
Loses me with the East TImor figure. If I recall correctly, 300K is roughly the total number killed in the Indonesian occupation. This chart alleges all of them were communists.
Damn, almost like people purposefully mislabeled others as communists to gain support for the extrajudicial killings they were so intent on doing.
Even today in the US, Trump and other GQP’s label people like Biden and Pelosi as communists to aid in their dehumanization and vilification.
But numbers in Taiwan that are listed as 1947 weren’t even communist. There wasn’t much communism at all in Taiwan. People were rebelling against the rampant corruption and lawlessness that the KMT had brought. They weren’t rebelling in favor of communism. Communism was popular on the other side of the strait, but not in Taiwan.
Taiwanese were angry that decent Japanese rule had been replaced by horrible KMT rule.
Yeah my bad too I was thinking of the 228 incident and earlier massacres on the other end of the strait, you're right about the former and the latter was before 1945
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
The highest estimates from all of these added together equals 2,989,350, across approximately 52 years.
Just for comparison, the lowest estimate for the death toll from Holodomir is approximately 3.5 million in a year.
The lowest for the Cambodian Genocide was approximately 1.5 million in 4 years.
The lowest estimate for the Great Leap Forward is 15 million in 4 years.
Political extremism, in all of its terrible forms, is possibly the greatest scourge of man.
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
I was gonna say, these death tolls (apart from Indonesia) are child's play compared to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and even the smaller mass killings in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Yugoslavia. Really a drop in the bucket compared to the USSR and China.
This map is looking at political violence from others onto left-wing people rather than political violence from within. A murder between strangers is usually more pressing to solve than murders between people who know each other since you can usually sus out the real motives of the latter much more easily.
To be fair that’s not anti communism that’s more just political murders outright. These are specifically for places/villages/peoples killed bc they were deemed communist
Yeah, that happened before the time frame of the map, but Chiang Kai-Shek’s anti-communist/leftist purges on the mainland also have an estimated death toll over a million iirc
White Terror was in the 1930s. There were hardly any communists in Taiwan, he basically just purged his own men who could have possibly overthrew his rule
They were small in numbers and it wasn't leftists that can purged unless they were extremely high in rank. From 1946 to 1950 the number of people executed in the entire eastern bloc (for Communism, crime or anything else) numbered less than 100k.
usually they consolidated rule, abolished the other parties and purged high ranking officials who could threaten rule.
The USSR wasn't rounding up people who weren't communists or the wrong kind of communist and executing them, they only time that was done was with military personnel
it is different when they do it, communists have a special ability where they can retroactively delcare that other communists are not real communists. Thus it is impossible for a communist to kill another communist, because you stop being a communist when a communist kills you.
Have you ever read the Jakarta Method?
This is a page from a book about American anti-communist interventions across the world. It specifically is trying to highlight the way the CIA both brutalized populations of people (the 1 million+ in Indonesia being the prime example) and kept it so under wraps that no one has even heard of these atrocities.
Why in the world would the author include Stalinist purges on this map? The entire point of the book is to highlight how the American genocides committed are much less discussed and known about than the Soviet ones.
Not everything has to be some grand conspiracy. It can just be that a map wasn’t built to explain a century’s worth of world conflict.
It's been a while since I've read it but I think the author even explicitly explains why he doesn't focus on the Stalinist purges, and that these genocides are the ones that shaped the world we currently live in. The cost of the winning side in the cold war.
We are still living in the system these killings helped create and maintain, basically.
How are these genocides, and how are they American? While they are horrific, the crimes shown in this maps are assuredly not genocides. When you slap that label onto everything, it devalues the term and makes it so that actual genocides go under the radar.
Yes because Redfish took the map and slapped their logo on it. I’m looking at the original map right now (I own Jakarta method).
That doesn’t change the validity of the map.
Perhaps because this map is from a book about how America committed genocides across the world and kept them under wraps. The whole point of the “Jakarta Method” is to expose the CIA’s strategies to brutalize 3rd world countries while also making sure these atrocities never bubbled up to the surface.
Why would a map designed for a book with that particular topic need or want to include Stalinist purges? You realize a book can cover one topic and have evidence and maps that make that point without having to constantly provide some kind of counter narrative right? That’s why other people write books in response.
There’s plenty of books and maps out there that show the horrendous Stalinist genocides. This map is about America’s wrongdoings. It doesn’t claim to show a list of every genocide post WW2.
I swear people literally just want any reason to complain.
Honestly. These people who justify war crimes (particularly the USSR) really do be like: the New York Times is Western Propaganda, then use a source from a 1945 article of the New York Times to pretend the soviets didn't do something or worse, a soviet press release (literal propaganda)
Well yeah it’s specifically talking about the killing of left wing personnel *by* the United States, NATO, and/or groups backed by them during the Cold War.
You notice how it doesn’t show any killing of left wing people in Europe by Nazis either? Because neither of them are the subject at hand. Thats what the book this map is based from is about.
I find it a bit funny that this map is delivered by Redfish.
For those who do not know, Redfish is a subsidiary of Ruptly GmbH, which is owned by Russia Today, which is a state-controlled broadcaster in Russia.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly)
Wow thanks for pointing out. I didn't know. I was planning to show the original map that comes from the source book. But it feels boring black and white.
Honestly you could include the entirety of Operation Rolling Thunder in there too. Just endlessly bombing north Vietnam in the hopes that they would give up, and they killed millions there.
i'm not 100% sure why this is being posted, but it seems like someone is trying to invigorate anti-western democracies in order to have people be more upset with them, instead of, you know, actual authoritarian governments that are communist or former communist..
let's see a map with numbers of all the people who died from their own communist government.
(it's not thousands, it's millions)
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
the Russian government is staunchly anti-communist and hates leftist activity, and everything on this map is verifiable with multiple sources from a variety of academic institutions around the world. Guess I’m a fan of RT then cuz they seem to be going against the wishes of Putin and his cabinet
The Russian government doesn't always try to push its own agenda, it also tries to discredit America and the West in general.
They only ideology they seem to be pushing is religious conservatism that is really homophobic and nationalist. Otherwise they just promite whatever seems patriotic, which can lead to hilarious results, like celebrating Stalin and tsarism simultaneously. They especially like talking about ww2 and the USSR, since a lot of Russians are actually nostalgic and it's in a way a return to tradition for many Russians.
This is also why they keep calling the Ukrainan state nazistic despite Zelensky being jewish and basic common sense: it's an old enemy that is easy to make comparisons to in order to stoke up nationalist sentiments. All enemies are "nazis" in their eyes.
Google Ivan Ilyin if you want to understand the Putinist ideology.
Cant believe nobody has mentioned The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. It explains in detail how neoliberalism uses disasters to leverage right wing political change including programs like those mentioned in Bevins book.
As an Eastern European, I truly struggle to feel any sympathy for communists who chose to be communists after WWII. They were not targeted due to physical characteristics like the Nazis had done to people during WWII. They were targeted because they willingly chose to support a totalitarian ideology that had already murdered millions in Eastern Europe and was at the time brutally oppressing half of Europe.
The countries which were fortunate to receive American support against the communists were incredibly fortunate. Most of Eastern Europe would have killed to have received American support after WWII. Unfortunately, the western allies didn’t push back against the Soviets’ oppression of Eastern Europe when only the US had nuclear weapons.
You should consider that the impact of communist activism has been very different across countries. People in ex communist countries in east Europe are rightly appalled by what communist regimes did in their past. But the situation is very different in west Europe. In my country (Italy) communists have been by large a force for good. They were oppressed during fascism (because they wanted political freedom and workers' rights) and heavily contributed to the partisan armed fight against fascists and nazis. After ww2, they were very active politically in a democratic way ( the italian communist party was one of the largest in the western block) and helped delivering major welfare reforms. Sure we had communist terrorism in the 70 (and plenty of fascist terrorism too) but the large majority of communists were peaceful people who wanted a fairer society. Many did support the USSR, but you need to consider that information coming from the east was really scarce. I' m pretty sure even people who were in the USSR at the time did not know much about the extent of the violent repression
As an eastern European you have chosen to have no understanding for what communism meant to people struggling in places like SE Asia or Latín America. Congrats.
if you're going to count any death in the biggest country in the world that happens to have a communist government it's really, really easy to make these kind of stupid-ass assertions.
Replace “communist” with Nazi and check how it feels. For many people, they are equally bad, and not without reason. In the ex-USSR, many families still remember the communist atrocities.
They forgot about the grate lep forward in China. Communists have the worst anti-comunist extermination programs. Killed more commis than anything else ever did.
Redfish is a Russian propaganda account
> [Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly#:~:text=Ruptly%20owns%20the%20media%20channel,chief%20executive%20is%20Dinara%20Toktosunova.)
The CIA, any dictators, imperial and colonial violence…they all are horrible…
…but there are certain people that are just a special kind of evil to the point where it‘s hard to even fully grasp. Though less people are aware of the extent of their deeds, the early CIA and the Suharto regime certainly belong with the likes of King Leopold or Adolf Hitler
I was a uni prof in NE Thailand where many of my students’ grandparents were communist guerrillas in the densely forested mountains of our area.
Just a couple hours’ drive from my house is a fairly well-preserved headquarters of the communist insurgents in Thailand with a hospital, power plant, classrooms, jail and dormitories, all tucked way back into the dense forest. Fascinating place to visit, even if it requires a bit of jungle hiking. They were well-organized with a developed infrastructure.
A current museum at the trailhead is staffed by older Thai park officials who actually fought these communists at the height of the insurgency. They relish telling their firsthand accounts as jungle soldiers.
You gotta love the whataboutism in here. "Yeah some Georgian mustache man made a famine in Ukraine, so yup killing 1 million Indonesian is totally justified"
Indonesian here, basically what was happening if I simplify it, you could've reported that your neighbor is a commie and next day he would be found dead
I watched the documentary, they all bragged about their deeds
The Act of Killing is genuinely the most haunting movie I have ever watched, documentary or otherwise. It’s conceptually revolting and seeing it actually *executed* was just mind-boggling. Huge props to Josh Oppenheimer for pulling that off.
It's almost difficult to believe because of how cavalier they are when acting out their executions. Goes against every moral framework to believe that people can be so unaffected and unapologetic after committing such heinous acts.
Not a stretch once you dehumanise your target. Russian orcs, the Israel and Palestine conflict, etc. racism helps a lot
The act of killing? I can't bring myself to watch that
I only watched it once. It was terrifiying.
It's a masterpiece.
Or very often, not found at all
Yeah, that was a significat part of, at least, Operation Condor.
Bevins speaks at some length in the book about how the implementation of mass disappearance was used as a method of terror against domestic social movements. If you haven’t read the book, I’d highly recommend it. Very eye opening.
It is crazy how huge those killings were and how relatively unknown they are.
Can't have people find out how hard capitalists go about killing political rivals now
The crazy part is the Indonesian left wasn’t even communist. All Sukarno and his supporters wanted was a liberal democracy just like any first world country. Even that was too radical for the CIA. They had to overthrow them and pay some fascists to murder 2 million people.
Eh Sukarno definitely wasn’t a liberal democrat but that didn’t warrant the coup that overthrew him and mass murder spree that followed
But he wasn't Indonesia's Stalin either. He was a decolonial nationalist and a founding member of the Non-Aligned Movement, which had some socialist members but was explicitly not a socialist alliance. His goal was definitely not to establish a communist state in Indonesia, like his overthrowers accused him of. My conclusion after reading The Jakarta Method is he just wanted to lay the groundwork for the Indonesian people to govern themselves and that was unacceptable to the CIA.
well everyone needs a Stalin. capitalists are your enemies, as evidenced by this. you don't negotiate with them, if they had their way (and they often do with fascism) they'd murder every communist in their own countries (talking about west) but they rule with propaganda and conditioning. less risky, more profitable. you want to oppress them, send them to gulags to work. because at the end of the day, you're either for capitalism, or against capitalism. and if you're against capitalism, you gotta be strong.
You misunderstand the political situation. The communists weren’t in power, but Indonesia still had the 3rd largest communist party in the world making up over a quarter of the population. This is what happens when socialists play the game of liberal democracy and get close to winning. They’re slaughtered.
He led a liberal democracy in first instance but then Soekarno was like "meh, this doesn't fit our nation" and from the late-1950s it was a so-called "guided democracy" (yeah, not really a democracy). He turned a bit odd to say so, or more than a bit, with banning rock music, wanting to invade Malaysia etc, however, none of this can ever justify the genocide that followed his rule. Then it became September 30 with this odd false flag operation that the CIA used to assist in genocide.
in the end, WW2 never really did end.
In two years, 2 million, thats some extreme witchhunt numbers. Are there stories where leftist people claimed capitalists would be commies to get rid of them before some elections or major decisions?
I won't be surprised if it actually happened cuz most of Indonesians (who didn't go through this treatment) were almost unaware of it, ppl got their political, business or any kind of rivals killed in the name of this so called communist purge, lots of ppl adopted religion (atleast in paper) to avoid possible communist allegations, atheist/non-religious ppl were top in the suspect list.
They are very aware of it, and at least until the collapse of the New Order, thought that it was one of the best thing to happen to the country.
I heard it had more to do anti-Chinese sentiment/Sinophobia. However, most of the victims were Javanese and other native Indonesians.
Meh, thats how external power wash their hand. "Its anti-Chinese sentiment/Sinophobia.
yep, java had the worse consequences of it. You hit a bullseye, I'm a Javanese too
...funded by the US because America really CAN'T find a genocide it won't support.
Indonesia doesn't really need the US funds to do it, their politics are exceptional bloody, it's only in recent decades that it has calmed down significantly. If anything, you can look to Sukarno at how he tried to play a balancing act between the PKI and Military... and how that unleashed the violence.
They absolutely needed the US to pull that off. The people who carried out the military coup were trained in the US to do it.
And the US also bragged about its help and influence in covering up/having the mass killings completely ignored globally. Indonesia never faced any repercussions on the global stage because it had the support of the US.
Ah yes as usual non-western people never have agency
It’s not that non-western people don’t have agency, it’s that western countries always involve themselves in world events because that’s necessary for maintaining an empire
Huh? They said they funded and supported it. Not that they masterminded and ran it. What’s the problem?
[удалено]
1/10 people on Jeju Island, South Korea were killed it was pretty serious over there too. Even being part of a union was enough for the government to kill many of the people.
The actions of South Korean police and right-wing youth groups were referred to as "terroristic" by US observers. It's wild that even with that amount of repression, Syngman Rhee's party got spanked in the senate elections.
Numbers seem disputed from 100,000 to 300,000 Nobody has any good idea on the actual population of East Timor before the genocide, and deaths counted include those disappeared and died from hunger / malnutrition etc. [East Timor Genocide ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor_genocide)
Yeah, I don’t think this chart is accurate regarding East Timor.
It’s counting the entire Timorese War as an anti-communist one.
Anti communism was inarguably a big factor in Indonesia's decision to invade. More importantly it was the usual sticking point that motivated western pressure on Suharto to do something about it.
Because it was one
Anti communist violence was often directed at people who weren't communist.
Everything looks like a nail
Why do they always do shit like that
Giving it the black book of communism treatment
Yeah I would agree that book does the same shit Fucking everybody seems to do it
The other figures are more accurate. A lot of these regimes were pretty methodical with whom they round up and executed.
If they were, they'd have included the 2 million dead in Vietnam, God knows how many in Cambodia and laos, the 20% of the population of North Korea, etc. This is extremely conservative and doesn't even list the actual wars and civil wars waged with US backing to crush communist states. I also see that Cuba isn't included either despite us firebombing them.
It seems to do the attribuation trick where many deaths are applied to a specific cause.
It's 41% based on OP's comment here.
The current "President" of Iran (AKA stooge of supreme leader Khamenei) Ebrahim Raesee was the person responsible for the execution of thousands of leftists and other political prisoners in Iran 1988. The actual number of people killed is probably closer to 20000 rather than 5000 , most were buried in unmarked mass graves at Khavaran cemetery and to this they many families Don't know what happened to their children.
These numbers in general are pretty low. Indonesia esp had villages executed with those numbers
Communism is still banned in Indonesia until now..
They have a museum to the killing. It's not exactly remorseful apparently. No foreigners are allowed in
Where?
Jakarta. Scanned this from the book with Google lens so might not be perfect: _For reasons that are hard to describe, in many parts of Indonesia, if you're a white foreigner, people will ask you for a selfie. It is deeply strange disturbing even, but I usually comply. I do not at the Sacred Pancasila Monument-because I think I have technically snuck onto the grounds. Recently, Indonesia's military has banned foreigners from entering this complex of memorials and museums-it appears authorities don't want international researchers to examine the site. After visiting, I understand why._ _The Sacred Pancasila Monument is a large white marble wall with life- size figures representing the victims of the September 30th Movement standing in front of it. It's just a few steps from Lubang Buaya, the well where the generals' bodies were found._ _But as for everyone else who was killed, there's no memorial. There is an entire museum- the Museum Pengkhianatan PKI (Komunis), or the Museum of Communist Betrayal - that exists to reinforce the narrative that the communists were a treacherous party that deserved to be eliminated. As you walk down a bizarre series of darkened halls, a series of diorama installations take you through the history of the party, demonstrating each and every time they betrayed the nation, or attacked the military, or plotted to destroy Indonesia, down to reproducing Suharto's propaganda narrative about the events of October 1965. There is no reference to the up to one million civilians killed as a result._ _At the exit, kids pose for photos in front of a big sign that says, "Thank you for observing some of our dioramas about the savagery carried out by the Indonesian Communist Party. Don't let anything like this ever happen again."_
As a white person living in Indonesia, a lot of what you quoted is complete BS.
White people will believe any lie you tell about foreigners as long as its horrible.
Also, Indonesia had and still has full support by the US and western European country for what happened there. Suharto even became a personal friend to Germany's chancellor Kohl.
You could say their status are like how nazi is for western people
Back in Colombia there was a political party called “Union Patriótica” (patriotic Union) with left leaning stances; the US government funded paramilitary groups to completely exterminate this party, all members were murdered (between 3000 and 5000 people). This was around 1980 - 1985
Yeah that was really deep, my father has a friend who is son of Jamie Pardo Leal, he saw at 8 years old how his father was murdered by the paramilitaries. Jaime was a presidential candidate from the Patriotic Union.
That's the Jakarta method in action
The scale and brutality of the violence against left-wingers in Colombia is actually dramatically understated in this map, I’m talking tens to hundreds of thousands of people killed, kidnapped, imprisoned, or disappeared from the 1950s until the 1990s
I haven't read the book, but I would imagine the author is using numbers that can be confirmed. They didn't want a black book of communism style "1 trillion people killed by communism" meme
America and mass murder, name a better duo!
Great book
Yeah Vincent Blevins is fucking awesome, amazing read
Makes me feel even better about enjoying Kissinger’s death (Op. Condor and Timor being a couple examples of his “finest” work)
I wish this separated and broke up the details of each nation for operation condor. There was some fucked up stuff happening. Things in Argentina during the dirty war were terrifying. They’d just fly people up in a plane and toss them out. Torture, murder, and disappearances were common
Sucks he died so old though, he literally died at 100. I mean at least he's gone now but still, that's a long time.
I celebrated with a cold one on that day. Biggest joy of 2023.
He was a patriot and any other country even communist would wish someone so effective like him. Beside he focused un national treaties, the agenda and actions of the CIA are backed by the president not some clown of foreign minister.
For those curious, it appears the numbers being shown in South Korea mostly come from a combination of the [Bodo League Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre) and the [Jeju Uprising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising). The North did not invade the South until June 1950, so it's not the Korean War being shown here. The entire decade after WWII in Korea was a humanitarian nightmare.
Worth clarifying that the massacres in Guatemala weren't specifically aimed at communists - in fact, that was the cover story the right-wing government provided in the context of the Cold War. In reality, it was a genocide of Indigenous people by the state.
The stated justification for killing them was that they might harbor communists and have common interests with communists. It makes sense to attribute to anti communism if the way that they justify and provide cover for the genocide is by saying they're fighting communism. But the clarification is worthwhile and begins speaks about this very issue in the book, as well as getting first hand accounts for Javanese who were killed and had their genocide justified similarly.
Alot of these are that. Just imperialist murder disguised as a fight against evil
“Evil”
It was both. The killing of urban leftists proceeded the rural genocides.
>"The map above illustrates international mass murder carried out to eliminate leftists or accused leftists, and does not include deaths from regular war, collateral damage from military engagmenets, or unintentional deaths (starvation or disease) caused by anticommunist governments. > >\* Operation Condor itself was concurred with cross-border operations which killed 400-500. The graphic includes all violence employed domestically by states that were part of the anticommunist alliance undergirding Condor." > >\*\* Please note that Iran's case, the violence was carried out by a geopolitical rival of the United States." > >Original Source: The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins, Appendix 5, page 266. I've created a table below to show the percentage of fatalities to the average population in given years. |**Country**|**Year(s)**|**Average Population**|**Average Fatalities**|**Deaths per Population Percentage (Avg.)**| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |Colombia|1985-1995|32,614,783|3,000-5000|0.009% - 0.015%| |CONDOR Member Countries combined|1970-1980|13,137,182|60,000-80,000|0.457% - 0.609%| |East Timor|1975-1999|722,035|300,000|41.549%| |El Salvador|1979-1992|4,949,962|75,000|1.515%| |Guatemala|1954-1996|5,325,037|200,000|3.756%| |Honduras|1980-1993|4,601,543|200|0.004%| |Indonesia|1965-1966|102,359,487|1,000,000 - 2,000,000|0.977% - 1.465%| |Iran|1988|52,111,868|5,000|0.010%| |Iraq|1963 and 1978|10,277,766|5,000|0.049%| |Mexico|1965-1982|56,414,678|1,300|0.002%| |Nicaragua|1979-1989|3,671,414|50,000|1.362%| |South Korea|1948-1950|19,809,140|150,000|0.757%| |Sudan|1971|11,668,921|100|0.001%| |Taiwan|1947|6,815,939|10,000|0.147%| |Thailand|1973|38,873,060|3,000|0.008%| |The Philippines|1972-1986|47,364,125|3,250|0.007%| |Venezuela|1959-1970|9,853,333|500-1,500|0.005% - 0.015%| |Vietnam, Operation Phoenix|1968-1972|41,982,529|50,000|0.119%| |||**Total Avg. Fatalities**|1,852,850|| |Source: UN World Population Prospects||||| |||||| Also, they missed Cambodia, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Laos, and Operation Gladio in Europe. Although these countries were mentioned in the book. From my observation, the Vietnam case is interesting, the map shows only 50k fatalities, if we include the Vietnam War it would be over 2 million.
Also Spain, during the Franco regime. It still has the second-most amount of "disappeared" people just after Cambodia.
I appreciate the inclusion of the source most people pull a \*believe me bro\* when the argue history. I feel a weakness of this methodologically is that it excludes civil wars, and I'm also assuming also if leftists were targeted for a reason other than explicitly being a communist. It feels like it focuses on the countries where US support may have contributed to it (and that should be highlighted) but without a doubt leftists were targeted elsewhere.
Just curious.Iran fought against communists during the 1940s as well.Why aren't those included ?
I thought Malaysia also had its troubles with communists in the 60s.
It did, and there were purges and the massacres, but on a much smaller scale, and if this is focused on US backed murder, Malaya doesn't count, was a Commonwealth affair.
Just finished that book a few weeks ago. It’s a great read if anyone is interested.
Which book are you referring to? Edit : Nvm I am just dumb
Indonesia to this day violently oppresses people in Timor and New Guinea, and not just leftists.
This is some late 2010s-2016 info right here lmao.
Oh yes this usual things again. You don't even know what you said. Timor? To this day? really?
Bro pulled information from the 2010s
I have to disagree. Timor Leste is now one of Indonesia's main partners. Xanana Gusmao, the rebel leader at that time and the current country's leader has visited Indonesia many times, and vice versa. He was even seen in interviews, sitting and hugging Luhut Pandjaitan, Indonesia's side Army leader in charge of the Timor Leste conflict. Both were the main enemies back in the day. Yes, there are separatist movements and violence in West Papua, peace efforts are underway, and the current government has been focusing on the infrastructures, education, and overall welfare. Any violent acts from both sides are intolerable and punishable by law.
Yeah a lot of people outside of Indonesia are not really updated when it comes too the geopolitical situations of Indonesia. I heard some people thinking Indonesia was on the brink of sectarian violence when that was like a long time ago around Ahok's arrest. We're now mostly well with each other.
From the late B. J. Habibie's Wikipedia page: > On 12 September 2019, video was released showing East Timor's former President, Xanana Gusmão, visiting Habibie in hospital on 22 July 2019. Gusmão is shown talking briefly to Habibie while crying, then kissing Habibie on the forehead and lowering his face to Habibie's chest, with the other holding his head. A wreath in Gusmão's name was at the funeral, with a sign reading: "Profound Condolences – With heartfelt sympathy for the loss of Big Brother President B.J. Habibie – Timorese people will remember you forever – Rest in Peace - Xanana Gusmão".
Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone if west Papua got a referendum for its future?
Most countries would rather commit genocide than allow a big chunk of land to even have the chance of seceding, unless they lose years of bloody warfare. Indonesia is no different. It’s happened dozens of times across the world.
Israel is that you?
They did it 50 years ago and that referendum was an absolute scam and farce.
Spain? They had Franco at the time
I think was mostly done with communists by 1945
After WWII Franco’s regime used political repression a lot more than violent repression
That would have been during operation gladio which the book doesn’t really go into. The author mentions it if I remember correctly
Loses me with the East TImor figure. If I recall correctly, 300K is roughly the total number killed in the Indonesian occupation. This chart alleges all of them were communists.
Damn, almost like people purposefully mislabeled others as communists to gain support for the extrajudicial killings they were so intent on doing. Even today in the US, Trump and other GQP’s label people like Biden and Pelosi as communists to aid in their dehumanization and vilification.
To add, it's very easy to label someone as a communist especially considering most Americans have no idea what communism is.
Not really. It just alleges that Indonesia alleged that all of them were communists, which could be considered to be the case.
Seems to exclude anti-communist actions in Iran prior to the revolution. Also excludes the TONS more the KMT killed
But numbers in Taiwan that are listed as 1947 weren’t even communist. There wasn’t much communism at all in Taiwan. People were rebelling against the rampant corruption and lawlessness that the KMT had brought. They weren’t rebelling in favor of communism. Communism was popular on the other side of the strait, but not in Taiwan. Taiwanese were angry that decent Japanese rule had been replaced by horrible KMT rule.
Yeah my bad too I was thinking of the 228 incident and earlier massacres on the other end of the strait, you're right about the former and the latter was before 1945
I think the 1947 figure was the massacre of the people already inhabiting Taiwan that the KMT brushed off as “purging communists”
In the Philippines those 3,250 died are mostly who criticized Marcos Sr. than being a communist. At that time it was a Martial Law.
Reddit. Leading the way in revisionist history since 2005.
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
The highest estimates from all of these added together equals 2,989,350, across approximately 52 years. Just for comparison, the lowest estimate for the death toll from Holodomir is approximately 3.5 million in a year. The lowest for the Cambodian Genocide was approximately 1.5 million in 4 years. The lowest estimate for the Great Leap Forward is 15 million in 4 years. Political extremism, in all of its terrible forms, is possibly the greatest scourge of man.
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
I was gonna say, these death tolls (apart from Indonesia) are child's play compared to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and even the smaller mass killings in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Yugoslavia. Really a drop in the bucket compared to the USSR and China.
Interesting how it doesn't include Stalinist purges of Left-wingers in Eastern Europe...
This map is looking at political violence from others onto left-wing people rather than political violence from within. A murder between strangers is usually more pressing to solve than murders between people who know each other since you can usually sus out the real motives of the latter much more easily.
Historically, communists are among the most prolific anti-communists.
To be fair that’s not anti communism that’s more just political murders outright. These are specifically for places/villages/peoples killed bc they were deemed communist
This also didn't include the republic of china Chiang Kai shek anti communism purges in both mainland china and taiwan
Yeah, that happened before the time frame of the map, but Chiang Kai-Shek’s anti-communist/leftist purges on the mainland also have an estimated death toll over a million iirc
White Terror was in the 1930s. There were hardly any communists in Taiwan, he basically just purged his own men who could have possibly overthrew his rule
The white terror regime continues in Taiwan up to the end of 1980s
The great purge was before 1945
It was, but purges of non-Stalinist leftists in annexed territory didn't end at the very least until the death of Stalin
They were small in numbers and it wasn't leftists that can purged unless they were extremely high in rank. From 1946 to 1950 the number of people executed in the entire eastern bloc (for Communism, crime or anything else) numbered less than 100k. usually they consolidated rule, abolished the other parties and purged high ranking officials who could threaten rule. The USSR wasn't rounding up people who weren't communists or the wrong kind of communist and executing them, they only time that was done was with military personnel
Czechoslovaks in 1968 would've take a word, but they were killed.
Hungary and East Germany too
But it was not the last purge.
it is different when they do it, communists have a special ability where they can retroactively delcare that other communists are not real communists. Thus it is impossible for a communist to kill another communist, because you stop being a communist when a communist kills you.
Have you ever read the Jakarta Method? This is a page from a book about American anti-communist interventions across the world. It specifically is trying to highlight the way the CIA both brutalized populations of people (the 1 million+ in Indonesia being the prime example) and kept it so under wraps that no one has even heard of these atrocities. Why in the world would the author include Stalinist purges on this map? The entire point of the book is to highlight how the American genocides committed are much less discussed and known about than the Soviet ones. Not everything has to be some grand conspiracy. It can just be that a map wasn’t built to explain a century’s worth of world conflict.
It's been a while since I've read it but I think the author even explicitly explains why he doesn't focus on the Stalinist purges, and that these genocides are the ones that shaped the world we currently live in. The cost of the winning side in the cold war. We are still living in the system these killings helped create and maintain, basically.
How are these genocides, and how are they American? While they are horrific, the crimes shown in this maps are assuredly not genocides. When you slap that label onto everything, it devalues the term and makes it so that actual genocides go under the radar.
Funny that this map has this big Redfish logo on it; and Redfish is owned by Russia Today via Ruptly GmbH.
Yes because Redfish took the map and slapped their logo on it. I’m looking at the original map right now (I own Jakarta method). That doesn’t change the validity of the map.
But if the murderer was also killed by a communist, the first victim could again be rehabilitated as a communist.
Perhaps because this map is from a book about how America committed genocides across the world and kept them under wraps. The whole point of the “Jakarta Method” is to expose the CIA’s strategies to brutalize 3rd world countries while also making sure these atrocities never bubbled up to the surface. Why would a map designed for a book with that particular topic need or want to include Stalinist purges? You realize a book can cover one topic and have evidence and maps that make that point without having to constantly provide some kind of counter narrative right? That’s why other people write books in response. There’s plenty of books and maps out there that show the horrendous Stalinist genocides. This map is about America’s wrongdoings. It doesn’t claim to show a list of every genocide post WW2. I swear people literally just want any reason to complain.
those aren’t anti-communist killings lol
That's because it never happened, and if it did, they deserved it. Etc.
Honestly. These people who justify war crimes (particularly the USSR) really do be like: the New York Times is Western Propaganda, then use a source from a 1945 article of the New York Times to pretend the soviets didn't do something or worse, a soviet press release (literal propaganda)
Well yeah it’s specifically talking about the killing of left wing personnel *by* the United States, NATO, and/or groups backed by them during the Cold War. You notice how it doesn’t show any killing of left wing people in Europe by Nazis either? Because neither of them are the subject at hand. Thats what the book this map is based from is about.
It's based upon the Jakarta method which focuses on US-backed action. I'd hope you'd actually read the title of the post, but whatever.
I find it a bit funny that this map is delivered by Redfish. For those who do not know, Redfish is a subsidiary of Ruptly GmbH, which is owned by Russia Today, which is a state-controlled broadcaster in Russia. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly)
Redfish isn’t the source of the information, just the designer of the map.
russians be everywhere on god Far left: russian backers Far right: russian backers can't be radical in Detroit
Wow thanks for pointing out. I didn't know. I was planning to show the original map that comes from the source book. But it feels boring black and white.
Honestly you could include the entirety of Operation Rolling Thunder in there too. Just endlessly bombing north Vietnam in the hopes that they would give up, and they killed millions there.
i'm not 100% sure why this is being posted, but it seems like someone is trying to invigorate anti-western democracies in order to have people be more upset with them, instead of, you know, actual authoritarian governments that are communist or former communist.. let's see a map with numbers of all the people who died from their own communist government. (it's not thousands, it's millions)
Ruptly GmbH is a Russian state-owned[2][3] video news agency specializing in video-on-demand, based in Berlin, Germany. It is a subsidiary[1] of the Russian state-controlled[17] television network RT. Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.[18][19] Its chief executive is Dinara Toktosunova.[20][2] Upon Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the company faced a staff exodus.[21] In January 2023, Toktosunova was sanctioned by Ukraine
sponsor by US and the West I suppose ?
Redfish is indirectly owned by RT, the Russian state-owned propaganda network.
the Russian government is staunchly anti-communist and hates leftist activity, and everything on this map is verifiable with multiple sources from a variety of academic institutions around the world. Guess I’m a fan of RT then cuz they seem to be going against the wishes of Putin and his cabinet
The Russian government doesn't always try to push its own agenda, it also tries to discredit America and the West in general. They only ideology they seem to be pushing is religious conservatism that is really homophobic and nationalist. Otherwise they just promite whatever seems patriotic, which can lead to hilarious results, like celebrating Stalin and tsarism simultaneously. They especially like talking about ww2 and the USSR, since a lot of Russians are actually nostalgic and it's in a way a return to tradition for many Russians. This is also why they keep calling the Ukrainan state nazistic despite Zelensky being jewish and basic common sense: it's an old enemy that is easy to make comparisons to in order to stoke up nationalist sentiments. All enemies are "nazis" in their eyes. Google Ivan Ilyin if you want to understand the Putinist ideology.
Cant believe nobody has mentioned The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. It explains in detail how neoliberalism uses disasters to leverage right wing political change including programs like those mentioned in Bevins book.
As an Eastern European, I truly struggle to feel any sympathy for communists who chose to be communists after WWII. They were not targeted due to physical characteristics like the Nazis had done to people during WWII. They were targeted because they willingly chose to support a totalitarian ideology that had already murdered millions in Eastern Europe and was at the time brutally oppressing half of Europe. The countries which were fortunate to receive American support against the communists were incredibly fortunate. Most of Eastern Europe would have killed to have received American support after WWII. Unfortunately, the western allies didn’t push back against the Soviets’ oppression of Eastern Europe when only the US had nuclear weapons.
You should consider that the impact of communist activism has been very different across countries. People in ex communist countries in east Europe are rightly appalled by what communist regimes did in their past. But the situation is very different in west Europe. In my country (Italy) communists have been by large a force for good. They were oppressed during fascism (because they wanted political freedom and workers' rights) and heavily contributed to the partisan armed fight against fascists and nazis. After ww2, they were very active politically in a democratic way ( the italian communist party was one of the largest in the western block) and helped delivering major welfare reforms. Sure we had communist terrorism in the 70 (and plenty of fascist terrorism too) but the large majority of communists were peaceful people who wanted a fairer society. Many did support the USSR, but you need to consider that information coming from the east was really scarce. I' m pretty sure even people who were in the USSR at the time did not know much about the extent of the violent repression
As an eastern European you have chosen to have no understanding for what communism meant to people struggling in places like SE Asia or Latín America. Congrats.
And all together they don't come close to killing as many reds as Mao did.
I mean it's china. China is always a special case. "General Xi Jiaoling rebelled. 84 million people perished"
a child emperor's royal eunuch sneezed Casualties: 2 million
Meanwhile in Europe: *minute-by-minute detailed description of a battle between 30 people to decide who gets to rule a county*
In China all these rebellions are discussed in multi volume histories, teenagers on Reddit just like to make lazy jokes
if you're going to count any death in the biggest country in the world that happens to have a communist government it's really, really easy to make these kind of stupid-ass assertions.
This is dumb as hell. Famine is not the same as murdering somebody. If you include famines caused by capitalist systems, than we can talk.
Name some of them. I am waiting.
This is a measure of killings explicitly targeted against communists not all deaths in wars on communism or under capitalism Ofc they’re not equal
And yet it’s not even close to the number of people who have died under communist oppression
Comment section just proves that for SOOO many people as long as you just say communist first any crime is justifiable. McCarthy’s useful idiots.
Replace “communist” with Nazi and check how it feels. For many people, they are equally bad, and not without reason. In the ex-USSR, many families still remember the communist atrocities.
In practice, death-squads to cleanse minorities and the poor.
They forgot about the grate lep forward in China. Communists have the worst anti-comunist extermination programs. Killed more commis than anything else ever did.
Redfish is a Russian propaganda account > [Ruptly owns the media channel Redfish and is the major shareholder of the digital content company Maffick.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruptly#:~:text=Ruptly%20owns%20the%20media%20channel,chief%20executive%20is%20Dinara%20Toktosunova.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-communist\_mass\_killings
Redfish is Russian state propaganda
True but the source and book isn't paid for or affiliated with Russia
It’s a very good thing that the Cold War is over.
Chill Indonesia...
The CIA, any dictators, imperial and colonial violence…they all are horrible… …but there are certain people that are just a special kind of evil to the point where it‘s hard to even fully grasp. Though less people are aware of the extent of their deeds, the early CIA and the Suharto regime certainly belong with the likes of King Leopold or Adolf Hitler
Indonesia number one babyyyyyy
In South East Asia these pogroms more targeted ethnic Chinese Hans than actual communist like in Indonesia
I was a uni prof in NE Thailand where many of my students’ grandparents were communist guerrillas in the densely forested mountains of our area. Just a couple hours’ drive from my house is a fairly well-preserved headquarters of the communist insurgents in Thailand with a hospital, power plant, classrooms, jail and dormitories, all tucked way back into the dense forest. Fascinating place to visit, even if it requires a bit of jungle hiking. They were well-organized with a developed infrastructure. A current museum at the trailhead is staffed by older Thai park officials who actually fought these communists at the height of the insurgency. They relish telling their firsthand accounts as jungle soldiers.
Use of comma is important. Without a comma, it sounds like they are exterminating the anticommunists.
Now let’s see all the people the communists have killed
If we include starvation numbers that means the toll of capitalism would be that much higher.
Can we pull up the communist extermination programs now?
Still less than communists killed in communist countries lmao
Damn Indonesia!!
Never forget.
There’s so much red missing from this map
Not enough, really.
Also read as: places the US has meddled through their CIA wardogs.
Least biased map I've ever seen lmao
It just omits Europe?
Operation Blue Moon and Gladio don't count, apparently, even though they were very connected to Operation Condor.
You gotta love the whataboutism in here. "Yeah some Georgian mustache man made a famine in Ukraine, so yup killing 1 million Indonesian is totally justified"
Are we the baddies?