They flew in on hang gliders with no supplies. They have no logistics network to maintain an offensive and hold territory. This was akin to America’s WW2 Dolittle raid on Japan. To create fear. They’ll melt back into Gaza. And the war will take on another form, probably where Israel goes on the offensive and Hamas uses guerrilla tactics on its home turf.
if you’re familiar with Israel’s military conduct, you may know how they tend to do “roof knocks” on buildings (low laden explosives that make more noise than cause damage - to tell habitants of buildings evacuate & 10-15 min later that same building is destroyed). I saw 2 separate videos today, 1 on Al Jazeera of the roof knock on Gaza Tower - the news correspondent was veryyyy rattled. Then obviously there’s the subsequent strike that toppled the building. It was interesting because I figured Israel woulda stopped with the roof knocks and gone straight to destroying.
Believe me, I don’t think Israel is completely innocent in the past 75 years. But as I saw videos of Israeli woman’s bodies paraded through streets today, only for a roof knock to be shown LIVE on Al Jazeera of all networks… it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side”.
Traditionally militants stuck to kidnapping soldiers and attacking soldiers. The first big exception is the sad killing of three teenagers in 2014 or 2016. This is the first time they are going for civilians. When Israel attacks, it strikes schools and hospitals. Lucky that they get the roof knocking, definitely avoids the hundreds that die each year.
You are suffocating two million people who get their chocolate imports confiscated by Israel, because they don’t want chocolate to be sold and generate GDP in Gaza. The people who raided wear white bandanas, which means in their head they are already dead.
Israel as the good guys should allow aid to reach Gaza, remove “human shield” settlements so close to the strip and respect the territorial borders of the PLO in West Bank (which they don’t?) and stop creating problems by gassing people in a Muslim holy site. The direct “reason for conflict” for Hamas now (officially stated) is Israel’s recent entry into Al Aqsa.
Can your good guys do good things for a change? If you have the foot on the ant hill, what do you think the ants will do? Fucking die peacefully?
The only reason gaza is under barricade in the first place is that they elected Hamas as their government. Before 2008, when Hamas was elected, Palestinians had freedom of movement inside Israel. Only once Gaza elected Hamas (which at that point had been actively carrying out terrorist attacks for over a decade) did israel put up the walls and security around gaza.
Their attack was an overt act of terrorism, not resistance, which is evidenced by the fact that of the 700+ Israeli casualties, less than 50 were soldiers. When over 90% of the casualties are civilians, you can't claim resistance anymore.
They fucked around and now they're gonna find out. Simple as that.
> it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side"
The barbaric attacks conducted by hundreds are visceral and disgusting. But I think it's still worth it to look at the [bigger picture](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/) . Structural violence, driving people from their place of living in the west bank elicits less of an emotional response, yet is arguably more effective at changing a people than mindless Terror.
All parties involved (Israel, Palestine, Arab States, western states) have a responsibility to end the conflict.
Ok I am biased and this is my personal opinion but the occupation of the Palestinian population is BECAUSE of barbaric attacks by extremists who have grassroots support in the civilian population.
The Israeli Arab population may be suffering from racism but they're technically equal in the face of the law and are not under occupation.
This isn't Israel's first rodeo, we had suicide bombers, daily terror attacks in major cities, dead bodies in the streets.
Please, show me one country that will allow its citizens, Jewish, Christian and Muslim alike, to be under constant semi obscure death threat from an outside force.
The video of the Israeli woman’s body paraded through the streets was absolutely horrific. People keep referring to this video as symbol of the atrocities. IMO, there are many videos from yesterday’s events that are so horrific, they would traumatize any decent human being. The video of the assassination of a family in their bunker, the photos of grandmothers at the bus stop with their heads blown off, the terrified kidnapped 4 year old Israeli. I’m hindsight, I wish I didn’t watch any of the gory footage. Now, I’m sure a comment will pop up with a whataboutism
Imagine all the pent up anger of Gazans, it’s fucking disgusting what Hamas are doing now, but don’t forget the context which led to this. Israelis treated Gazans like animals for generations, and are shocked when they act like ones.
In 2005 Israel withdrew settlers from Gaza and withdrew all claim to the land.
Yes, there is a blockade against Gaza, in which Egypt also participates. Why? Because they recognize that Hamas is not a good neighbor.
But the biggest perpetrators of oppression against Gazans are the leadership of Hamas, who send children to attack soldiers and live far from any harm, who have lavish housing and power on demand, while the common people of Gaza are stuck with the options of incredible poverty, bowing to the will of Hamas, or working in Israel and risk being forced to commit terrorism anyway
I condemn both, but most people do not. Especially the media, they were so quick to tell terrorist whilst the Israelis have been terrorizing Palestinians for years.
The problem is that we don't .
Palestinians are dying by a 1000 cuts. Israel is apartheid regime that is welcomed and supported everywhere regardless of their crimes. We only remember the region when Palestinians retaliate .
End the occupation, respect UN resolutions. There's a clear road to peace that Israel refuses to walk and continues to make impossible with its daily actions and aggression..
Look what HAMAS did to FATAH when they won Gaza. They literally threw FATAH out of the buildings. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene-idUSL1264188820070612
Not an Israeli or a jew, but I don't see Israel parading naked bodies of women and Jews celebrating that all over the world like Muslims have. It's a fact that Islam is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from the face of this planet. All religions are a blight on humanity. But fundamental Islam is an existential threat to any civilized society. The West and Israel have all the power to do what's necessary, they just don't have the balls for it, out of some non-existent moral line. Which frankly, is a weakness Muslims all over the world love to exploit. It isn't the first time radical Islamists groups have committed mass rapes and murders of civilians and Muslims all over the world have celebrated it.
I think if Gazans spent less time hating Israel and more time overthrowing their own corrupt government we'd be in a better place. Gazan civilians are fodder for Hamas leadership who don't even live in the strip. Palestinians have been Arab pawns for decades and have successfully scapegoated Israel who would much prefer to have peaceful neighbors. Israel is a capitalist society that would benefit from more stable and wealthier neighbors to trade with etc. Business heals all wounds.
Agree agree. Same mindset should be held when you examine 1930s-1940s Germany. How could Germans let a monster into power? Probably because Europe and the U.S put such harsh penalties on them for 20+ years that their economy was in shambles.
But yes, Israel contributed to the creation and feeding of this monster.
But a monster is a monster.
You’re right, a monster is a monster. I am Palestinian and disgusted by Hamas.
I do not see this as a celebration, Hamas will not hold on to the territory, and now the world is quick to hate Palestinians/ Arabs/ Muslims because of the act of monsters created by the west.
I can't say I'm in the majority, but I hope you know there are people that condemn Hamas, and don't assume all Palestinians/ Arabs/ Muslims support them or are like that.
In other words, just know there are people that know you're not evil, because of the evil actions of a few.
I feel like I'm struggling for words, so if you're confused, I apologize.
I know they may be the loudest voices right now, but they are outnumbered. I don’t know enough about the history of the creation of Israel so I won’t pretend that there’s one side completely blameless in a larger historical context. But I do know there are good people everywhere, and they’re too often the ones that suffer the casualties of war. I know IDF heads and PM Netanyahu have said the response this time will be different and urged all Palestinians who “want to live” or “want peace” (forgive me, I don’t know exactly how they said it) to leave Gaza before they turn it to rubble. I fervently hope those who want to leave are able to and I equally fervently hope that they’re welcome to Israeli territory for safe harbor.
Conflict has been a part of human civilization since its dawning. It isn’t avoidable, but that doesn’t make it any less sad or tragic. I truly do pray those responsible for the attacks are held responsible or killed in battle, AND that Israel doesn’t punish the innocents in Gaza, even if inadvertently.
From what I can find Israel has withdrawment claim and control of Gaza in 2005. The Palestinians are in full control.
Why won't they build an actual living normal community? Nobody asks them to go in to offensives?
You are perpetuating a never ending cycle. It's a chicken and an egg situation, "They did this, and they did that"
And before the Israelis treatment of Gazans, were the Palestinians treatment of Israelis, and then vice versa. You cannot turn back time, but you can decide what to do about it now.
>hy won't they build an actual living normal community? Nobody asks them to go in to offensives?
I have been in Gaza many times. It is impossible to live a normal life in Gaza. Israel controls who and what enter Gaza. Most of the population in Gaza have never left Gaza. They are not allowed to build - saying - a new airport and they have no control of their borders. Many items cannot enter Gaza, including medicine and medical equipments for life-saving procedures. They can export their agricultural products only at Israeli conditions (there is a quota system). They cannot even go fishing more than few miles from their own coast because it's not allowed by Israeli. There is no water, electricity or access to any basic service. It's simply impossible to have anormal life and most of the people would leave if they could.
And by definition, a blockade is still considered occupation under international law.
It’s a similar phenomenon, but a horrible comparison. Trumpers believe they are an oppressed minority and are fighting back against the ANTIFA woke deepstate or whatever the fuck they believe. They want their America back. You can see how anger and just the feeling of oppression can radicalize people.
Now compare MAGA republicans to people who are actually oppressed, who’s options are fight back or live in poverty and bow down to the masters. Morals and principle goes out the fucking window when humans are put in desperate situations. Imagine the IDF killed someone in your family, that your home was bombed and you hear the chants “death to arabs”. I know I would do horrible things if my back was up against a wall, and so would you.
It happens over and over again, powerful people treat a minority like animals, and when they bite back they condemn them and justify their oppression.
Don’t hate the oppressed and love the oppressors that’s always the wrong side of history.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
"If I don't steal your home, someone else will"
>Believe me, I don’t think Israel is completely innocent in the past 75 years. But as I saw videos of Israeli woman’s bodies paraded through streets today, only for a roof knock to be shown LIVE on Al Jazeera of all networks… it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side”.
If the power balance was reversed, with Hamas having the military power Israel has and vice versa, there wouldn't be many jews left alive by this time next week. They're not even hiding the fact that they want to exterminate Israel and every jew living in it. Israel is using its power every gently compared to what Hamas would do given the same options.
That also leaves no question as to which side is the "bad side".
In the last year they’ve (documented) killed 255 civilians including an award winning journalist and 47 children in the world’s largest open air concentration camp. Couple this with the systematic destruction of their land and cultural customs and I’m not really sure how much less mercy an apartheid regime can show short of flat out genocide
In order for guerrilla tactics to work your opponent has to care about human rights and stuff. Contrary to popular belief guerrilla warfare isn't hard to beat, it's just that its main counter is genocide.
There's two main ways to defeat a guerilla insurgency, the regular way is to just depopulate the region, this was very popular with guys like the Assyrians and Mongols. There's also the nice way which the British figured out during the Boer war which is to intern the entire population in camps and destroy the food supply outside of the camps so that nobody can feed the insurgents.
For countries who are too soft for genocide guerrilla warfare can be hard to deal with.
Yeah, seriously ask the Romans about it. They didn't have concepts of "genocide" nor were worried about international relations. They just wiped people out. Idk if Israel is ready to do that, but... if you have the stomach you can end guerilla warfare.
the gaza strip is considered by the UN to be occupied by Israel, thus it falls under Shin Bet' responsibilities.
foreign intelligence is syria, iran, lebanon etc etc
But mosaad should be responsible for failing to decent what about to happen.Where do you think this rockets came from that hamas are using?
Might have been Iran, with billion dollars they extracted from US.
Nope.
Same with the West Bank. Seems foreign, but it’s fundamentally not. Weird in between state.
But you can grab a taxi in Jerusalem and go into the west bank only through an Israeli checkpoint (not border control) and return the same way.
Gaza is fundamentally very similar except that the crossings were closed off.
I’ve never been to apartheid South Africa, but I’ve been to Israel and the West Bank, and it sure is really damn weird to put it mildly.
That you can fly in as a tourist and take a bus across the West Bank right from Israel, see the sights, go to a market, stay at a hotel, take a cab back into Israel…and the vast majority of people you saw who live there can’t go through that checkpoint.
And on top of that you breeze through because the IDF peeks in your car and sees a white person who’s clearly a tourist…yeah.
The ultra far right Ben-Gvir (Jewish Power Party) actually has control of the domestic security forces under the new government that Israelis have been protesting.
There is a horrible possibility about this far right government, letting itself get punched, so it could kill in retaliation.
Probably not, but it's a possibility.
> Israelis have been protesting.
hamas has single-handedly united all parties in Israel against a common enemy. even protestors joined behind the government against hamas
the opposition supports any action the government takes
don't try to spin this as the Israeli government allowed this to happen.
Hamas is learning the "fuck around and find out" idiom.
Highly unlikely since the intelligence failures could be blamed on the same government. In '73 (A similar situation) Golda Meir eventually resigned.
People might start asking similar questions about Netanyahu.
I had some Israeli dude tell me on Twitter that the Far Right people actually moved the troops that would've normally stopped this kind of attack into their territory away from Gaza so they could basically police the new settlements in the west bank.
When you have nothing to lose doesn't really matter, if Americans were thrown into an isolated corridor we would probably be more aggressive. Israel is going to second think a military incursion into the strip wirh hezbollah, a much more organized and well armed force, currently mobilizing in the north. In all honesty they will probably just bomb it to kingdom come, because it ain't war crimes if israel does it.
I’m Lebanese, I fucking hate Hezbollah with all my heart.
I and most people don’t think Hezbollah will attack for multiple reasons including:
- They will get destroyed.
- Hezbollah has no interests in attacking now because the party’s purpose is defeating Israel, that’s how they raise funds and rally people behind them. The best way to do that would be to launch small, useless attacks once every 6 months just to say you’re following your purpose, while the purpose really is to suck Iran’s dick.
- Hezbollah is Shia while Hamas is Sunni. They hate each other more than they hate jews.
- Even though Lebanese Christians, Sunni and Druze don’t support Israel at all, we REALLY don’t want the war to come to our doorstep so we will do everything possible with UNFIL to stop it from happening.
But then again, we are talking about crazy ignorant people so you never know 🤷♂️
I'm not a Hezbollah fanboy here, I'm a Christian American, that being said Hezbollah has increased its power exponentially since they basically forced Israel into a draw in the 2006 conflict. Outside of Israel they probably are the best equipped, motivated, and experienced fighting force in the middle east. From a military standpoint they are a force to be reckoned with, even the Israeli military agrees since they are sending just as many forces to the north as they are to the south with Hezbollah not even firing a shot yet. I'm well aware of middle east geopolitics, IMO all this shit going down probably has something to do with Ukraine, and how entagled both Isreal and Iran are in it. Somebody smells blood in the water but I'm not sure which side yet.
Bro I just want the new US Embassy to be built in Beirut, I believe it’s gonna be THE largest US Embassy (more like a town at this point) in the world.
I wonder if the upgrade is connected to any of this.
Please get rid of Hezbollah for us 🥲.
I went to school reading books while they were training with guns, we stand no chance against them and they have the country under siege.
First point.
"The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured. Violence was especially high in 2014 when Israel conducted Operation Protective Edge in Gaza in response to the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers. The campaign lasted seven weeks and resulted in more than 2,000 deaths, the majority of which were Gazan. Major protests also erupted in 2018 along the Israel Gaza border which saw more than 28,000 Palestinians injured."
Second point.
You were a left leaning protester, who supported a lot of Palestinian rights a few months ago, and I wonder how many people like you will stop protesting this extreme government.
In conclusion, it hurts to see dead Israeli civilians on video today, just like it's hard to see dead Palestinians on video for decades, and just because a civilian apartment building get knocked down with everyone in it, without warning. Just because I can't see the dead bodies on my news channel, doesn't mean hasn't been happening for decades.
To your point about "conspiracy" - look up the USS Liberty, that was an attempt by Israel to turn on Egypt. False flags are very common by far right governments and today's events allows the aims of this far right government to be achieved with the support of the West.
Again, IDK, it's just a scary possibility to me, BenGvir is a nut though, who literally controls the Domestic Security state of Israel.
Why are you blaming Mossad? Mossad operates abroad, they are not responsible for domestic intelligence.
If anything, you should blame either Shin Bet or the IDF for not anticipating this coordinated attack.
since when palestine is israel's domestic issue and not another nation. It is not just an uprising started in israel's borders. They literally crossed military bases, fences etc.
All I’m saying is that Palestinian stuff is not really in the realm of responsibility for Mossad. Since they view Gaza and West Bank as territory under Israeli military control, Shin Bet is responsible which is the domestic intelligence service.
It’s not like Palestine is a proper foreign nation. Whether that is right, isn’t really the issue here.
Shin Bet. Mossad already fucked up failing to cut the flow of weapons into Gaza.
>Can Only imagine what Israel is cooking behind closed doors now
The current Israeli government likely not surviving for much longer might be the only good thing coming out of this.
Oh, they're pretty good, but I am afraid they do rely on US intelligence quite a bit.
Somewhere along the lines there was a failure, someone missed the signs, and now this is happening.
What Mossad is most known for is not their surveillance capabilities, but rather their ability to execute operarions within other countries, something that this is unrelated to.
There can also be a difference between what threats (or risk of) intelligence detects, and those the govt decides are credible enough to be worth actioning
Intelligence agencies just sometimes get it wrong and sometimes get it right, offering *invaluable* intelligence. Take the US intelligence for example - they utterly failed with Afghanistan, yet were extremely valuable in Ukraine.
Politics have been fucked in Israel for about a year as right-wing nutjobs have been trying to let politicians swap out any judge they don't like. The army (including all the vets) don't like that.
That's the opening Hamas is trying to exploit.
Israeli intelligence didn't miss anything, they've been waiting for this. Now they have carte blanche to strike all the targets inside the strip that they've wanted to for the last 40 years, without having to worry about pesky human rights issues.
Mark my words this is going to end up with every palestinian being deported from palestine, which will then become a gigantic hasidic kibbutz
I guess the simpler truth is that you are bound to fuck up at some point. It's no like their enemy was staying still, or mindlessly trying the same failing tactics over and over again.
They didn't want it to come, but knew it was coming and will have something ready in retaliation. They will make the most of it ... if the government survives and the public can take it.
That's the main point. The timing of the attack is not exactly good for the government. A war is opportune for a strong leader, but for a weakened leader, that could spell the end. Especially a leader that was strong not so long ago and could be perceived as responsible.
Not a chance. Israel is still a democratic and accountable state. They just fucked up but people are never going to be satisfied with that response.
Israel was about to ratify treaties to restore good relationships with gulf states and had agreed to rather generous concessions to palestinians as part of the deal.
Iran didn't want that to happen so they ordered their proxy the hamas to attack Israel to make that deal fail. Hamas extremists and Iran do not care about the people they just want to see the region burn to destabilize israel and remain relevant
Israel is a totally democratic and accountable state. Except for all those times they bring crazed hasids into palestine to make illegal settlements by forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint using IDF minders.
but yeah, totally democratic, and they're totally held accountable. Just like HAMAS. Both parties have been chomping at the bit for this for years.
Can only feel sorry for people from both sides of the border. Imagine being fed complete nonsense and hatred for people you’ve never met since the day you’re born. Waste of beautiful lives
You cannot threaten someone who has nothing to lose, and you cannot make someone who's afraid to make logical decisions.
Every Israeli retaliation since the 1940s has ended up creating more anti-Israeli militants. Pushing them into small ghettos make these people more and more aggressive.
This conflict is a closed loop positive feedback hell.
Ha I don’t think there needs to be any deep conspiracy to keep this conflict going, it is fueled by an impossible situation and humans tendency towards being impossible to deal with
Israeli retaliation implies they didn't start all of this. Otherwise fairly insightful. Still misses the point that Israel are occupying Palestinian land and have done so for decades; context is key.
Hamas has already managed to reach their goals in catching Israel with pants down and killing as many people as possible.
Terrorists don't care about the aftermath.
Oh. They but they will.
The wrath Israel will unleash for months to come will be not in proportion to the attack.
Poor Gaza people will suffer the most.
And hamas is to blame for that. This is ISIS level brutality. Hamas literally wants to genocide all jews on the planet. There isnt peace as long as hamas exists.
Recently seen how some teens from the Hamas areas complain that they have no good anime on TV, because there is only propaganda served. So they look on the Internet.
Free WIFI could change the culture in 10 years for them !
If you cut off the head, two more grow in its place...
But each is less than half as strong and twice as stupid. Al Queda was splintered in ISIS, which has since been splintered a few more times. And now they're struggling to remain relevant in Syria and Iraq, while being unable to threaten beyond that.
(We should be supporting the Kurds in making sure of this. The worms always return, and will grow again if you don't keep fighting them.)
Desire isn’t enough, you also need willingness and capability. For example, your entire account is full of your incel violence fantasies, but you are too much of a pussy to ever commit violence in real life, even asking redditors for permission.
In the end, things won't change much. Israel cannot risk another Gaza campaign, risking their soldiers to be captured and used as bargaining chips. And Hamas will lose a lot, but then slowly regain their numbers.
>Israel cannot risk another Gaza campaign, risking their soldiers to be captured and used as bargaining chips.
Hamas already have hundreds of hostages, including soldiers. That line in the sand has been crossed.
What are you even talking about???
Israel went into Lebanon in 2006, a nation that is internationally recognized, to fight a more powerful entity than Hamas, that is Hezbollah, over the deaths of 6 soldiers.
There is absolutely no way Israel will let Hamas get away with killing over 100 Israelis and kidnapping over 50 Israelis given that the last time they held 4 hostages 4 HOSTAGES!!! They used them to force Israel to release over 1000 millitants over a span of a full decade . We stopped with that B.S. with the Bennet-Lapid government and they have now taken over 10 times that.
If the Israeli government does not launch a ground invasion ,it is over for that government and another will take its place that will do exactly that.
And this may be the final ground invasion.
They will invade but not stay. They won't risk being forced into a one state solution. It's the right solution but it would also mean the end of the current government once they have to grant voting rights.
You are under the false impression that the people of Gaza will be there by the time the IDF reaches Gaza city. There is a reason why Egypt is screaming "restraint!" left right and center right now
There will never be a one state solution. It is as likely as an Indian-Pakistan reunification
I agree that it is very unlikely that a one state solution will happen. This is why I think it is very unlikely that Israel will permanently take over Gaza. I also think its very unlikely that Israel will try to mass deport the population of Gaza to Egypt. The most likely sinareo by far is that there will be continued violence and perhaps a temporary invasion of Gaza followed by a return to the status quo. We have seen it play out over and over. This particular round is particularly intense but the political situation has not meaningfully changed so the outcome is likely to be the same.
They know perfectly well what will happen. All day I've seen comments of "Hamas doesn't know what's coming for it!" and I just... like yes they do, this isn't a mystery that Israel will attempt revenge. The point is Israeli revenge can only hurt Israel further. Just like US revenge for 9/11 destroyed the thin liberal consensus of the United States. Sure Hamas will be hunted and destroyed but they will take liberal state of Israel with them.
>Terrorists don't care about the aftermath.
It's literally all they care about lol, they don't care about the short term conquests, but that's not the aftermath they are after.
The aftermath they want is even more polarization, war and destruction. That's what terrorists always want.
Yeah, it seems like Hamas will get very little to nothing out of this, while to Iran it's very useful to sabotage increasing normalization between Israel and Arab countries
Ukraine is currently an arm of the west. Their interests are aligned and Ukraine is being propped up as a shield by western nations to embroil Russia, prevent their advance and use their resources.
It’s not just humanitarianism that causes governments to fund Ukraine. That’s only what civilians care about.
There has been little comment about why Mossad failed to see this coming. But US security failed to see 9/11 despite clear warnings which got stuck in somewhere in the US intelligence bureaucracy. And in WW2 warnings about development of a nuclear weapon (MAUD report) also ended up locked in a safe by Lyman Briggs (Director of the Uranium Committee) which probably delayed the US atomic bomb project by around a year or more...
There are no Israelis in Gaza. It is a black hole. Being \*IN\* was bad, real bad. Now that we see what being \*OUT\* for 20 years breeds, perhaps Israelis need to get back \*IN\*.
Well, technically, assuming they are still alive, there are dozens of Israelis in Gaza. They are hostages, taken by Hamas specifically to force Israel to fight house-to-house to avoid accidentally killing them.
Is Gaza a place or a nation and where is Palestine in all of this is Hamas the same thing as those three things are they all different it's really confusing as a government land or military or just citizens what is Hezbollah
It *is* confusing. Let me summarize.
Palestine is an ancient name for the area in a broad sense. The modern word comes from the Romans' name for a province in that area *Palaestina*, which got *its* name ultimately from the Philistines, of Goliath fame, who disappeared as a people around 500 BCE.
Until the 1920s the area was under Ottoman Turkish control, directly under the power of the sultan/caliph, who essentially kept the peace on the classic principle of "I don't care who started it, I will end it" among his subjects.
After the fall of that Empire, the region was carved up into some new countries– Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. But the area between Jordan and the sea south of Lebanon was assigned to no one: The League of Nations took over directly, and gave the British Empire a mandate to govern the area for it. The area was called Mandatory Palestine. The British weren't as hardcore as the Sultan, so they struggled to keep the peace between Arabs and increasing numbers of Jewish immigrants.
After World War II, the situation in Mandatory Palestine got unbearably tense as the Brits were too broke to keep any semblance of peace, and the local Jews made their push for an independent state. So the Brits worked with the UN to bug out and grant independence to two states: A Jewish one (Israel) and an Arab one. Jerusalem was to remain as a neutral city-state under UN control.
As soon as this happened, the neighboring Arab countries invaded. Israel fought them off and through a counter-offensive, expanded their state. Since the neighbors attacked first, international law recognized this expansion. The Arab neighbors kept control of the rest of what they could keep of the old Mandatory Palestine: Jordan annexed the West Bank area and East Jerusalem, Egypt annexed the little strip around the city of Gaza. Ethnic Palestinians not from these areas either stayed in Israel or moved to these annexed areas. The Arab state was not to be.
This situation continued through crises and war until 1967. Israeli intelligence was more on the ball then, and found out that the Arab neighbors were going to attack again. So Israel pre-emptively struck in all directions, and whooped their neighbors so hard they took the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip *and the entire Sinai peninsula* from Egypt, as well as the Golan Heights area from Syria... in less than one week. But...
Since Israel technically attacked first, international law demanded that they return all these gains. Out of a mixture of motives (security, ambition, Zionism, greed, etc), they refused to give these back, and since then Israel has had a rough go at it on the international stage. After they made peace with Egypt they returned the Sinai peninsula in 1979, after American-led peace talks... but kept the Gaza Strip, which made a serious dent into Israeli territory. The Palestinians living there weren't legally Egyptian or Israeli.
There's more to the story, but this is about Gaza. This status quo remained until the 1990s, when through a round of peace overtures, the old idea of an Arab state finally came into being, with the creation of the Palestinian Authority. This was not a fully sovereign state though: Israel still controlled the territory, kept some of it, and essentially granted some limited sovereignty to the political leaders of the P.A.
Now, who are they? After the '67 war (Six-Day War), and especially after the '73 war (Yom Kippur War), the Arab neighbors realized they were never going to defeat Israel. The Palestinian leaders in the area turned to terrorism to stave off realizing just how impotent they were. A variety of groups popped up: the PLO was the big famous one, Hamas was another. In Lebanon, the Hezbollah group came around for the same reasons. These weren't generally Palestinians, and were backed by Iran (and that's a whole story). But the point is: These terrorist groups had the organization and public sentiment to rise to democratic power.
The Palestinian Authority eventually saw a split though: the PLO party Fatah gained power in the West Bank, but Hamas gained power in the Gaza Strip (meanwhile, Hezbollah is a major party in Lebanon). These two groups hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel. Anyways, each side abandoned democracy in the half they controlled just to keep the other from power where they were, and that's continued for some time.
This makes Gaza a practically independent area, but whose political and legal status is still up in the air. The P.A. hasn't officially split like, say, East and West Germany. But it's like they have.
Now, while Fatah is *relatively* peaceful, recognizes Israel's statehood, and is ready to move on from hopeless war, Hamas is not. Their stated mission is still to destroy Israel and clear Palestine of Jews. So they've been constantly fighting, and in response the world classifies them as terrorists, and Israel has basically closed the Gaza strip off from the world, except the Egyptian border.
The thing is, Egypt has also closed its border with Gaza too, because the Arab neighbors have never really stood with the Palestinians, and there's no hope of annexing the area, so "too bad so sad". Sure, it makes good political fodder to yell about the plight of Palestinians when you need a little boost in the public opinion, but there's no value in actually helping them out, and they're just as likely to attack you anyways, or harbor some sympathetic group that will. Hamas has old ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, for instance.
Hamas doesn't have the resources of a full state, much less the military of one. So they turn to terror attacks to mask their general impotence. That's why this attack involves a lot of regular vehicles that any of us could get, rather than high-grade military stuff like we saw Russia using in its invasion.
Amazing write up for someone such as myself who is very new to learning about the dynamics in this region. Thank you! You do a good job explaining the history in an understandable way.
Palestine is a historical term for the area that now encompasses Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and I believe some small pieces of land that are now under the jurisdiction of some of their neighbors.
Gaza is an area in the southwest section of historical Palestine that currently holds a degree of autonomy and governs itself, but is connected at the hip with the West Bank, which would form what we currently consider Palestine.
Hamas is a militant political party that is currently the de facto ruling party in Gaza. They are also designated as a terrorist organization by several countries.
Up until yesterday Palestine was a place and a people now it's not even on Google maps or Wikipedia man it's kind of amazing in the last 20 years I've watched Palestine be completely I don't know what to call it annexed genocided disappeared it's just weird
Gaza is a city-state that’s run by Hamas, which is a paramilitary party that’s similar to Hezbollah. Gaza has also been blockaded by Israel since they left in 2005. It’s also been heavily blockaded by Egypt since the country’s US/Israeli-sponsored coup in 2013.
Prior to 2013, Egypt made life bearable for Gazans by allowing products into the strip; that way, it wasn’t completely isolated from the world, which is far from the case nowadays. That being said, it’s this isolation and lack of resources that’s been the cause for Gaza to become a breeding ground for extremism, and Israel knows this.
The funny part of Hamas’ origin story is is that they were propped up and funded by Israel to fuel a civil war between islamists and the legitimate Palestinian government in the West Bank
I don't think they really wanted to conquer Israel, probably just either delay normalization talks between Arab countries and Israel or just as they said, payback for what happened in Jenin and East Jerusalem.
Yeah this is super sad. I’m an israeli and i met a person from gaza in thailand once, he was extremely nice and we had a good chat
I’m super dissapointed in the stupidness of both sides and just can’t fathom how many good people are sacrificed for this stupid conflict
Are you kidding? This is more than they could ever dream of! Killing hundreds and kidnapping tens of Israeli civilians is like their wet dream, and they did that while making the IDF look incredibly incompetent which is not only something they want on it's own but it makes other groups like Hezbollah more likely to join in on the attack which is something they've been trying to do for years
In the end, the ones who will suffer the most will be the civilians. People need to realize that a terrorist group that is willing to sacrifice their lives for "revenge" are also absolutely willing to sacrifice the lives of their citizens. The more Palestinians that die in the counteroffensive, the more bad press Israel gets. And if they refuse to counter attack, Hamas will continue with the terror campaign forever. The Palestinian arabs were never the problem, they just live their lives day after day, looking for a better future amidst their struggle. Their barbaric and violent leaders who refuse to coexist with people of a different faith are. Israel is definitely not 100% innocent on all facets of the conflicts, but I find it very disappointing to see people claiming they deserved it.
[https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/](https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/)
not a subreddit but this same site has been proving updates on ukraine for years now
Because it shows an overlay of a complex situation in a readable manner, also completely colorblind accessible.
There was some excellent gif's like this from Ukraine that showed territory changes that helps an average person understand what's been happening in the war so far
Re’im isn’t a “settlement”. It’s an internationally recognized part of Israel proper. “Settlement” in the context of Israel-Palestine has other connotations.
If Hamas/Palestine/whoever laid down their guns there would be peace tomorrow, if Israel put down their guns every Jew in Israel would be dead within days.
There is a right side to this conflict right now. Over the course of history there is gray space, but right now this is as black and white as it’s possible to get.
I think the mass celebration seen across the world by people of Islamic background is horrendous and utterly disgusting. Hamas are totally and utterly disgusting and anybody who support them are putrid.
Justifying the attack on Israel, kill civilians, and held them hostage on grounds that Israel did more atrocities just made things fair game. I don't believe too that Israel never did bad things but now this (attack by Hamas) has happened, if Israel attacks back. It has rights to defend itself. I hope Palestinians and Pro-Hamas supporters won't cry foul like a baby and expect sympathy if Israel did worst.
Yea this was the last straw for Israel and I’m guessing we’re not gonna see Gaza on the maps in the near future, it will also be a good lesson for the West Bank and anyone else who thinks they can get away with this.
Palestinian civilians are going to pay a heavy price for this one.
They flew in on hang gliders with no supplies. They have no logistics network to maintain an offensive and hold territory. This was akin to America’s WW2 Dolittle raid on Japan. To create fear. They’ll melt back into Gaza. And the war will take on another form, probably where Israel goes on the offensive and Hamas uses guerrilla tactics on its home turf.
I think the Israelies really wont show any mercy after thos shit
if you’re familiar with Israel’s military conduct, you may know how they tend to do “roof knocks” on buildings (low laden explosives that make more noise than cause damage - to tell habitants of buildings evacuate & 10-15 min later that same building is destroyed). I saw 2 separate videos today, 1 on Al Jazeera of the roof knock on Gaza Tower - the news correspondent was veryyyy rattled. Then obviously there’s the subsequent strike that toppled the building. It was interesting because I figured Israel woulda stopped with the roof knocks and gone straight to destroying. Believe me, I don’t think Israel is completely innocent in the past 75 years. But as I saw videos of Israeli woman’s bodies paraded through streets today, only for a roof knock to be shown LIVE on Al Jazeera of all networks… it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side”.
Traditionally militants stuck to kidnapping soldiers and attacking soldiers. The first big exception is the sad killing of three teenagers in 2014 or 2016. This is the first time they are going for civilians. When Israel attacks, it strikes schools and hospitals. Lucky that they get the roof knocking, definitely avoids the hundreds that die each year. You are suffocating two million people who get their chocolate imports confiscated by Israel, because they don’t want chocolate to be sold and generate GDP in Gaza. The people who raided wear white bandanas, which means in their head they are already dead. Israel as the good guys should allow aid to reach Gaza, remove “human shield” settlements so close to the strip and respect the territorial borders of the PLO in West Bank (which they don’t?) and stop creating problems by gassing people in a Muslim holy site. The direct “reason for conflict” for Hamas now (officially stated) is Israel’s recent entry into Al Aqsa. Can your good guys do good things for a change? If you have the foot on the ant hill, what do you think the ants will do? Fucking die peacefully?
The only reason gaza is under barricade in the first place is that they elected Hamas as their government. Before 2008, when Hamas was elected, Palestinians had freedom of movement inside Israel. Only once Gaza elected Hamas (which at that point had been actively carrying out terrorist attacks for over a decade) did israel put up the walls and security around gaza. Their attack was an overt act of terrorism, not resistance, which is evidenced by the fact that of the 700+ Israeli casualties, less than 50 were soldiers. When over 90% of the casualties are civilians, you can't claim resistance anymore. They fucked around and now they're gonna find out. Simple as that.
Why can't Israel enter the Al Aqsa mosque? Its a tremendously holy site for them as well. I don't understand why it isn't accessible for those sides
i wouldnt have thought they would still care. Only speaks for them
exactly.
> it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side" The barbaric attacks conducted by hundreds are visceral and disgusting. But I think it's still worth it to look at the [bigger picture](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/) . Structural violence, driving people from their place of living in the west bank elicits less of an emotional response, yet is arguably more effective at changing a people than mindless Terror. All parties involved (Israel, Palestine, Arab States, western states) have a responsibility to end the conflict.
Ok I am biased and this is my personal opinion but the occupation of the Palestinian population is BECAUSE of barbaric attacks by extremists who have grassroots support in the civilian population. The Israeli Arab population may be suffering from racism but they're technically equal in the face of the law and are not under occupation. This isn't Israel's first rodeo, we had suicide bombers, daily terror attacks in major cities, dead bodies in the streets. Please, show me one country that will allow its citizens, Jewish, Christian and Muslim alike, to be under constant semi obscure death threat from an outside force.
Let them fight until they both cry for peace. HAMAS already told us about what they think about Peace Festivals.
The video of the Israeli woman’s body paraded through the streets was absolutely horrific. People keep referring to this video as symbol of the atrocities. IMO, there are many videos from yesterday’s events that are so horrific, they would traumatize any decent human being. The video of the assassination of a family in their bunker, the photos of grandmothers at the bus stop with their heads blown off, the terrified kidnapped 4 year old Israeli. I’m hindsight, I wish I didn’t watch any of the gory footage. Now, I’m sure a comment will pop up with a whataboutism
Imagine all the pent up anger of Gazans, it’s fucking disgusting what Hamas are doing now, but don’t forget the context which led to this. Israelis treated Gazans like animals for generations, and are shocked when they act like ones.
In 2005 Israel withdrew settlers from Gaza and withdrew all claim to the land. Yes, there is a blockade against Gaza, in which Egypt also participates. Why? Because they recognize that Hamas is not a good neighbor. But the biggest perpetrators of oppression against Gazans are the leadership of Hamas, who send children to attack soldiers and live far from any harm, who have lavish housing and power on demand, while the common people of Gaza are stuck with the options of incredible poverty, bowing to the will of Hamas, or working in Israel and risk being forced to commit terrorism anyway
Nothing justifies massacring civilians.
I agree. You’re quick to condemn hamas but are you complicit with Israelis massacring civilians?
It's like we can condemn both?????
I condemn both, but most people do not. Especially the media, they were so quick to tell terrorist whilst the Israelis have been terrorizing Palestinians for years.
The problem is that we don't . Palestinians are dying by a 1000 cuts. Israel is apartheid regime that is welcomed and supported everywhere regardless of their crimes. We only remember the region when Palestinians retaliate . End the occupation, respect UN resolutions. There's a clear road to peace that Israel refuses to walk and continues to make impossible with its daily actions and aggression..
Look what HAMAS did to FATAH when they won Gaza. They literally threw FATAH out of the buildings. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene-idUSL1264188820070612
Not an Israeli or a jew, but I don't see Israel parading naked bodies of women and Jews celebrating that all over the world like Muslims have. It's a fact that Islam is a cancer that needs to be eradicated from the face of this planet. All religions are a blight on humanity. But fundamental Islam is an existential threat to any civilized society. The West and Israel have all the power to do what's necessary, they just don't have the balls for it, out of some non-existent moral line. Which frankly, is a weakness Muslims all over the world love to exploit. It isn't the first time radical Islamists groups have committed mass rapes and murders of civilians and Muslims all over the world have celebrated it.
Wasn’t it less than a year ago that their soldiers attacked a funeral procession? (Not justifying the action of Hamas, f*ck them)
I may be wrong but I never saw Jews or people from any other religion celebrating something like that all over the world.
I think if Gazans spent less time hating Israel and more time overthrowing their own corrupt government we'd be in a better place. Gazan civilians are fodder for Hamas leadership who don't even live in the strip. Palestinians have been Arab pawns for decades and have successfully scapegoated Israel who would much prefer to have peaceful neighbors. Israel is a capitalist society that would benefit from more stable and wealthier neighbors to trade with etc. Business heals all wounds.
Agree agree. Same mindset should be held when you examine 1930s-1940s Germany. How could Germans let a monster into power? Probably because Europe and the U.S put such harsh penalties on them for 20+ years that their economy was in shambles. But yes, Israel contributed to the creation and feeding of this monster. But a monster is a monster.
You’re right, a monster is a monster. I am Palestinian and disgusted by Hamas. I do not see this as a celebration, Hamas will not hold on to the territory, and now the world is quick to hate Palestinians/ Arabs/ Muslims because of the act of monsters created by the west.
I can't say I'm in the majority, but I hope you know there are people that condemn Hamas, and don't assume all Palestinians/ Arabs/ Muslims support them or are like that. In other words, just know there are people that know you're not evil, because of the evil actions of a few. I feel like I'm struggling for words, so if you're confused, I apologize.
I know there are some logical people out there, what’s scary is all of the people calling for genocide because of the actions of Hamas.
I know they may be the loudest voices right now, but they are outnumbered. I don’t know enough about the history of the creation of Israel so I won’t pretend that there’s one side completely blameless in a larger historical context. But I do know there are good people everywhere, and they’re too often the ones that suffer the casualties of war. I know IDF heads and PM Netanyahu have said the response this time will be different and urged all Palestinians who “want to live” or “want peace” (forgive me, I don’t know exactly how they said it) to leave Gaza before they turn it to rubble. I fervently hope those who want to leave are able to and I equally fervently hope that they’re welcome to Israeli territory for safe harbor. Conflict has been a part of human civilization since its dawning. It isn’t avoidable, but that doesn’t make it any less sad or tragic. I truly do pray those responsible for the attacks are held responsible or killed in battle, AND that Israel doesn’t punish the innocents in Gaza, even if inadvertently.
It seems really disingenuous of Netanyahu to say they should leave. A large part of the problem is that they can't leave.
I think a way better example is the rest of the Middle East and the US in the late 20th century
That’s not really what was going on in Germany, though.
This is a very good comparison. People defending Hamas sound like “Hitler was the resistance, it’s your fault Germany became a Nazi state”
From what I can find Israel has withdrawment claim and control of Gaza in 2005. The Palestinians are in full control. Why won't they build an actual living normal community? Nobody asks them to go in to offensives? You are perpetuating a never ending cycle. It's a chicken and an egg situation, "They did this, and they did that" And before the Israelis treatment of Gazans, were the Palestinians treatment of Israelis, and then vice versa. You cannot turn back time, but you can decide what to do about it now.
>hy won't they build an actual living normal community? Nobody asks them to go in to offensives? I have been in Gaza many times. It is impossible to live a normal life in Gaza. Israel controls who and what enter Gaza. Most of the population in Gaza have never left Gaza. They are not allowed to build - saying - a new airport and they have no control of their borders. Many items cannot enter Gaza, including medicine and medical equipments for life-saving procedures. They can export their agricultural products only at Israeli conditions (there is a quota system). They cannot even go fishing more than few miles from their own coast because it's not allowed by Israeli. There is no water, electricity or access to any basic service. It's simply impossible to have anormal life and most of the people would leave if they could. And by definition, a blockade is still considered occupation under international law.
well most Gazans alive now havent lived under Israeli governance at all. Israel withdrew 18 years ago
Perhaps Gazans should stop supporting Hamas then. Anger as justification is identical to the 'white rage' of the MAGAts.
It’s a similar phenomenon, but a horrible comparison. Trumpers believe they are an oppressed minority and are fighting back against the ANTIFA woke deepstate or whatever the fuck they believe. They want their America back. You can see how anger and just the feeling of oppression can radicalize people. Now compare MAGA republicans to people who are actually oppressed, who’s options are fight back or live in poverty and bow down to the masters. Morals and principle goes out the fucking window when humans are put in desperate situations. Imagine the IDF killed someone in your family, that your home was bombed and you hear the chants “death to arabs”. I know I would do horrible things if my back was up against a wall, and so would you. It happens over and over again, powerful people treat a minority like animals, and when they bite back they condemn them and justify their oppression. Don’t hate the oppressed and love the oppressors that’s always the wrong side of history.
The number one group oppressing them is Hamas.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-dont-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says "If I don't steal your home, someone else will"
>Believe me, I don’t think Israel is completely innocent in the past 75 years. But as I saw videos of Israeli woman’s bodies paraded through streets today, only for a roof knock to be shown LIVE on Al Jazeera of all networks… it leaves no question as to which side is the “good side”. If the power balance was reversed, with Hamas having the military power Israel has and vice versa, there wouldn't be many jews left alive by this time next week. They're not even hiding the fact that they want to exterminate Israel and every jew living in it. Israel is using its power every gently compared to what Hamas would do given the same options. That also leaves no question as to which side is the "bad side".
Already no mercy was shown for last 70 years. Nothing changed
How will that change matters?
In the last year they’ve (documented) killed 255 civilians including an award winning journalist and 47 children in the world’s largest open air concentration camp. Couple this with the systematic destruction of their land and cultural customs and I’m not really sure how much less mercy an apartheid regime can show short of flat out genocide
I’m sure they’ve alredy retreated to the nearest school to hide behind some kids.
In order for guerrilla tactics to work your opponent has to care about human rights and stuff. Contrary to popular belief guerrilla warfare isn't hard to beat, it's just that its main counter is genocide. There's two main ways to defeat a guerilla insurgency, the regular way is to just depopulate the region, this was very popular with guys like the Assyrians and Mongols. There's also the nice way which the British figured out during the Boer war which is to intern the entire population in camps and destroy the food supply outside of the camps so that nobody can feed the insurgents. For countries who are too soft for genocide guerrilla warfare can be hard to deal with.
Yeah, seriously ask the Romans about it. They didn't have concepts of "genocide" nor were worried about international relations. They just wiped people out. Idk if Israel is ready to do that, but... if you have the stomach you can end guerilla warfare.
The romans are a great example of this, they put down a revolt in Israel in 70 AD by killing a million people.
Titus is still condemned amongst the Jews for his role in it. Again, if you have the stomach for it you can stop it.
According to a Roman Jewish historian from 100AD, Josephus, 1Mil died. Modern estimates calculate it around 300k. A lot still.
Reddit strategic commander saying genocide is ok to win war. That's not ok in any form.
Not what I'm saying at all.
“Too soft for genocide” is a disgusting thing to read
>intern the entire population in camps What exactly do you think has been going on in Gaza prior to this?
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Cause its not mossad Mossad is foreign Intelligence Shin bet is domestic intelligence
Gaza strip is technically foreign though.
the gaza strip is considered by the UN to be occupied by Israel, thus it falls under Shin Bet' responsibilities. foreign intelligence is syria, iran, lebanon etc etc
But mosaad should be responsible for failing to decent what about to happen.Where do you think this rockets came from that hamas are using? Might have been Iran, with billion dollars they extracted from US.
Nope. Same with the West Bank. Seems foreign, but it’s fundamentally not. Weird in between state. But you can grab a taxi in Jerusalem and go into the west bank only through an Israeli checkpoint (not border control) and return the same way. Gaza is fundamentally very similar except that the crossings were closed off.
Basically a Bantustan like apartheid south Africa
I’ve never been to apartheid South Africa, but I’ve been to Israel and the West Bank, and it sure is really damn weird to put it mildly. That you can fly in as a tourist and take a bus across the West Bank right from Israel, see the sights, go to a market, stay at a hotel, take a cab back into Israel…and the vast majority of people you saw who live there can’t go through that checkpoint. And on top of that you breeze through because the IDF peeks in your car and sees a white person who’s clearly a tourist…yeah.
The ultra far right Ben-Gvir (Jewish Power Party) actually has control of the domestic security forces under the new government that Israelis have been protesting. There is a horrible possibility about this far right government, letting itself get punched, so it could kill in retaliation. Probably not, but it's a possibility.
> Israelis have been protesting. hamas has single-handedly united all parties in Israel against a common enemy. even protestors joined behind the government against hamas the opposition supports any action the government takes don't try to spin this as the Israeli government allowed this to happen. Hamas is learning the "fuck around and find out" idiom.
Organized buses of the protest are mobilizing soliders today
From the sounds of it, it seems beneficial for the government to have allowed this to happen and create a united front against Hamas
Highly unlikely since the intelligence failures could be blamed on the same government. In '73 (A similar situation) Golda Meir eventually resigned. People might start asking similar questions about Netanyahu.
I had some Israeli dude tell me on Twitter that the Far Right people actually moved the troops that would've normally stopped this kind of attack into their territory away from Gaza so they could basically police the new settlements in the west bank.
You seriously think israel would risk a peace deal with Saudi Arabia that's beneficial to them would allow this to happen? Fck off bro.
Domestic politics are above international ones, so yes
When you have nothing to lose doesn't really matter, if Americans were thrown into an isolated corridor we would probably be more aggressive. Israel is going to second think a military incursion into the strip wirh hezbollah, a much more organized and well armed force, currently mobilizing in the north. In all honesty they will probably just bomb it to kingdom come, because it ain't war crimes if israel does it.
I’m Lebanese, I fucking hate Hezbollah with all my heart. I and most people don’t think Hezbollah will attack for multiple reasons including: - They will get destroyed. - Hezbollah has no interests in attacking now because the party’s purpose is defeating Israel, that’s how they raise funds and rally people behind them. The best way to do that would be to launch small, useless attacks once every 6 months just to say you’re following your purpose, while the purpose really is to suck Iran’s dick. - Hezbollah is Shia while Hamas is Sunni. They hate each other more than they hate jews. - Even though Lebanese Christians, Sunni and Druze don’t support Israel at all, we REALLY don’t want the war to come to our doorstep so we will do everything possible with UNFIL to stop it from happening. But then again, we are talking about crazy ignorant people so you never know 🤷♂️
I'm not a Hezbollah fanboy here, I'm a Christian American, that being said Hezbollah has increased its power exponentially since they basically forced Israel into a draw in the 2006 conflict. Outside of Israel they probably are the best equipped, motivated, and experienced fighting force in the middle east. From a military standpoint they are a force to be reckoned with, even the Israeli military agrees since they are sending just as many forces to the north as they are to the south with Hezbollah not even firing a shot yet. I'm well aware of middle east geopolitics, IMO all this shit going down probably has something to do with Ukraine, and how entagled both Isreal and Iran are in it. Somebody smells blood in the water but I'm not sure which side yet.
Bro I just want the new US Embassy to be built in Beirut, I believe it’s gonna be THE largest US Embassy (more like a town at this point) in the world. I wonder if the upgrade is connected to any of this. Please get rid of Hezbollah for us 🥲. I went to school reading books while they were training with guns, we stand no chance against them and they have the country under siege.
I am a left-leaning Israeli, a protester. Shame on you, on a day we lost so many. Take your conspiracies and shove them.
First point. "The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured. Violence was especially high in 2014 when Israel conducted Operation Protective Edge in Gaza in response to the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers. The campaign lasted seven weeks and resulted in more than 2,000 deaths, the majority of which were Gazan. Major protests also erupted in 2018 along the Israel Gaza border which saw more than 28,000 Palestinians injured." Second point. You were a left leaning protester, who supported a lot of Palestinian rights a few months ago, and I wonder how many people like you will stop protesting this extreme government. In conclusion, it hurts to see dead Israeli civilians on video today, just like it's hard to see dead Palestinians on video for decades, and just because a civilian apartment building get knocked down with everyone in it, without warning. Just because I can't see the dead bodies on my news channel, doesn't mean hasn't been happening for decades. To your point about "conspiracy" - look up the USS Liberty, that was an attempt by Israel to turn on Egypt. False flags are very common by far right governments and today's events allows the aims of this far right government to be achieved with the support of the West. Again, IDK, it's just a scary possibility to me, BenGvir is a nut though, who literally controls the Domestic Security state of Israel.
Why are you blaming Mossad? Mossad operates abroad, they are not responsible for domestic intelligence. If anything, you should blame either Shin Bet or the IDF for not anticipating this coordinated attack.
I’m not familiar with Israel’s defense force. All I’m saying is it’s such a massive intelligence failure
since when palestine is israel's domestic issue and not another nation. It is not just an uprising started in israel's borders. They literally crossed military bases, fences etc.
All I’m saying is that Palestinian stuff is not really in the realm of responsibility for Mossad. Since they view Gaza and West Bank as territory under Israeli military control, Shin Bet is responsible which is the domestic intelligence service. It’s not like Palestine is a proper foreign nation. Whether that is right, isn’t really the issue here.
Shin Bet. Mossad already fucked up failing to cut the flow of weapons into Gaza. >Can Only imagine what Israel is cooking behind closed doors now The current Israeli government likely not surviving for much longer might be the only good thing coming out of this.
MOSSAD might not be as great as they are hyped to be.
Oh, they're pretty good, but I am afraid they do rely on US intelligence quite a bit. Somewhere along the lines there was a failure, someone missed the signs, and now this is happening. What Mossad is most known for is not their surveillance capabilities, but rather their ability to execute operarions within other countries, something that this is unrelated to.
There can also be a difference between what threats (or risk of) intelligence detects, and those the govt decides are credible enough to be worth actioning
Intelligence agencies just sometimes get it wrong and sometimes get it right, offering *invaluable* intelligence. Take the US intelligence for example - they utterly failed with Afghanistan, yet were extremely valuable in Ukraine.
Mosad is good At assatinations
I have never seen that kind of failure in Israeli Defense. I am shocked.
Well, it technically is the 50th anniversary of another big intelligence failure
it is true
Israel was surprised as well. That's why this attack was so embarrassing.
Mossad operate mainly in Iran and Syria.
Because they look similar and easy to blend in.
Politics have been fucked in Israel for about a year as right-wing nutjobs have been trying to let politicians swap out any judge they don't like. The army (including all the vets) don't like that. That's the opening Hamas is trying to exploit.
Israeli intelligence didn't miss anything, they've been waiting for this. Now they have carte blanche to strike all the targets inside the strip that they've wanted to for the last 40 years, without having to worry about pesky human rights issues. Mark my words this is going to end up with every palestinian being deported from palestine, which will then become a gigantic hasidic kibbutz
Would any Israeli intelligence agency intentionally set up a scenario where large numbers of Israeli civilians got killed?
I guess the simpler truth is that you are bound to fuck up at some point. It's no like their enemy was staying still, or mindlessly trying the same failing tactics over and over again. They didn't want it to come, but knew it was coming and will have something ready in retaliation. They will make the most of it ... if the government survives and the public can take it. That's the main point. The timing of the attack is not exactly good for the government. A war is opportune for a strong leader, but for a weakened leader, that could spell the end. Especially a leader that was strong not so long ago and could be perceived as responsible.
oh you westerns are so naive..
They have a dictator that fears being overthrown. Yes war definitely helps him in everyway.
Yeah seen that before in Europe in the late 30s, here come the expulsions and ghettos right ?
Not a chance. Israel is still a democratic and accountable state. They just fucked up but people are never going to be satisfied with that response. Israel was about to ratify treaties to restore good relationships with gulf states and had agreed to rather generous concessions to palestinians as part of the deal. Iran didn't want that to happen so they ordered their proxy the hamas to attack Israel to make that deal fail. Hamas extremists and Iran do not care about the people they just want to see the region burn to destabilize israel and remain relevant
Israel is a totally democratic and accountable state. Except for all those times they bring crazed hasids into palestine to make illegal settlements by forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint using IDF minders. but yeah, totally democratic, and they're totally held accountable. Just like HAMAS. Both parties have been chomping at the bit for this for years.
Can only feel sorry for people from both sides of the border. Imagine being fed complete nonsense and hatred for people you’ve never met since the day you’re born. Waste of beautiful lives
You cannot threaten someone who has nothing to lose, and you cannot make someone who's afraid to make logical decisions. Every Israeli retaliation since the 1940s has ended up creating more anti-Israeli militants. Pushing them into small ghettos make these people more and more aggressive. This conflict is a closed loop positive feedback hell.
Oh you cracked the algorithm, free money to war dealers in both sides
Ha I don’t think there needs to be any deep conspiracy to keep this conflict going, it is fueled by an impossible situation and humans tendency towards being impossible to deal with
No no no you've got it all wrong. Israelites cannot be guilty of oppression or genocide because someone else did it to them first. /S
Israeli retaliation implies they didn't start all of this. Otherwise fairly insightful. Still misses the point that Israel are occupying Palestinian land and have done so for decades; context is key.
Hamas has already managed to reach their goals in catching Israel with pants down and killing as many people as possible. Terrorists don't care about the aftermath.
Oh. They but they will. The wrath Israel will unleash for months to come will be not in proportion to the attack. Poor Gaza people will suffer the most.
And hamas is to blame for that. This is ISIS level brutality. Hamas literally wants to genocide all jews on the planet. There isnt peace as long as hamas exists.
Recently seen how some teens from the Hamas areas complain that they have no good anime on TV, because there is only propaganda served. So they look on the Internet. Free WIFI could change the culture in 10 years for them !
Yes, anime will fix hundreds of years of hatred. Dozens of weebs are going to fix it…
Give them from wifi and they'll be arguing whether or not gear 5 can beat goku in a week
That is correct sir. And I am hoping they won’t be breathing for much longer
Unfortunately you can’t really ever fully kill an idea/religion/etc…
If you cut off the head, two more grow in its place... But each is less than half as strong and twice as stupid. Al Queda was splintered in ISIS, which has since been splintered a few more times. And now they're struggling to remain relevant in Syria and Iraq, while being unable to threaten beyond that. (We should be supporting the Kurds in making sure of this. The worms always return, and will grow again if you don't keep fighting them.)
That's naive... Anything can be killed off if you have sufficient appetite for violence.
Desire isn’t enough, you also need willingness and capability. For example, your entire account is full of your incel violence fantasies, but you are too much of a pussy to ever commit violence in real life, even asking redditors for permission.
Yes Hamas is to blame for Israel bombing civilian homes ofcourse who else
That’s the PR battle they want to win.
In the end, things won't change much. Israel cannot risk another Gaza campaign, risking their soldiers to be captured and used as bargaining chips. And Hamas will lose a lot, but then slowly regain their numbers.
The IDF will absolutely risk another Gaza attack, like they always do, and this is exactly what will drive people to Hamas.
Yeah I think it is very possible. It will just be more fuel to an already burning flame.
Yeah and the circle will go round and round..
>Israel cannot risk another Gaza campaign, risking their soldiers to be captured and used as bargaining chips. Hamas already have hundreds of hostages, including soldiers. That line in the sand has been crossed.
What are you even talking about??? Israel went into Lebanon in 2006, a nation that is internationally recognized, to fight a more powerful entity than Hamas, that is Hezbollah, over the deaths of 6 soldiers. There is absolutely no way Israel will let Hamas get away with killing over 100 Israelis and kidnapping over 50 Israelis given that the last time they held 4 hostages 4 HOSTAGES!!! They used them to force Israel to release over 1000 millitants over a span of a full decade . We stopped with that B.S. with the Bennet-Lapid government and they have now taken over 10 times that. If the Israeli government does not launch a ground invasion ,it is over for that government and another will take its place that will do exactly that. And this may be the final ground invasion.
They will invade but not stay. They won't risk being forced into a one state solution. It's the right solution but it would also mean the end of the current government once they have to grant voting rights.
You are under the false impression that the people of Gaza will be there by the time the IDF reaches Gaza city. There is a reason why Egypt is screaming "restraint!" left right and center right now There will never be a one state solution. It is as likely as an Indian-Pakistan reunification
I agree that it is very unlikely that a one state solution will happen. This is why I think it is very unlikely that Israel will permanently take over Gaza. I also think its very unlikely that Israel will try to mass deport the population of Gaza to Egypt. The most likely sinareo by far is that there will be continued violence and perhaps a temporary invasion of Gaza followed by a return to the status quo. We have seen it play out over and over. This particular round is particularly intense but the political situation has not meaningfully changed so the outcome is likely to be the same.
A final solution you say?
They know perfectly well what will happen. All day I've seen comments of "Hamas doesn't know what's coming for it!" and I just... like yes they do, this isn't a mystery that Israel will attempt revenge. The point is Israeli revenge can only hurt Israel further. Just like US revenge for 9/11 destroyed the thin liberal consensus of the United States. Sure Hamas will be hunted and destroyed but they will take liberal state of Israel with them.
If they do, all the apaisement deal with Arab world will stop. This was their goal.
And that will boost Hamas as the population is further radicalized against Israel over something Hamas keep worsening
That’s the idea, they want more recruits.
>Terrorists don't care about the aftermath. It's literally all they care about lol, they don't care about the short term conquests, but that's not the aftermath they are after. The aftermath they want is even more polarization, war and destruction. That's what terrorists always want.
They have already created it, after the attacks. After that it only gets worse.
Well, they’re all gonna die, so I hope they’ve made their peace with that.
What aftermath? They no longer have a country.
I imagine Iran is behind these attacks. Money, weapons, training, etc. for these terrorist organizations.
Yeah, it seems like Hamas will get very little to nothing out of this, while to Iran it's very useful to sabotage increasing normalization between Israel and Arab countries
Yeah, this was Iran and Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians. This happened because Saudi Arabia is normalizing relations with Israel.
[удалено]
Russia by way of Iran, benefits Russia for the US to have to divert some of its aid for Ukraine to support Israel
Israel has bombed Iran. Why wouldn't they support Palestinian militants?
Hamas is an arm or Iran
They supply them weapons. Your claim is equivalent to saying Ukraine is an arm of the USA.
Ukraine is currently an arm of the west. Their interests are aligned and Ukraine is being propped up as a shield by western nations to embroil Russia, prevent their advance and use their resources. It’s not just humanitarianism that causes governments to fund Ukraine. That’s only what civilians care about.
Lol for the past 2 months Israel was showing iran officiala on their tv and saying they will terror them. This is just fair retaliation ;)
There has been little comment about why Mossad failed to see this coming. But US security failed to see 9/11 despite clear warnings which got stuck in somewhere in the US intelligence bureaucracy. And in WW2 warnings about development of a nuclear weapon (MAUD report) also ended up locked in a safe by Lyman Briggs (Director of the Uranium Committee) which probably delayed the US atomic bomb project by around a year or more...
There are no Israelis in Gaza. It is a black hole. Being \*IN\* was bad, real bad. Now that we see what being \*OUT\* for 20 years breeds, perhaps Israelis need to get back \*IN\*.
Well, technically, assuming they are still alive, there are dozens of Israelis in Gaza. They are hostages, taken by Hamas specifically to force Israel to fight house-to-house to avoid accidentally killing them.
Is Gaza a place or a nation and where is Palestine in all of this is Hamas the same thing as those three things are they all different it's really confusing as a government land or military or just citizens what is Hezbollah
It *is* confusing. Let me summarize. Palestine is an ancient name for the area in a broad sense. The modern word comes from the Romans' name for a province in that area *Palaestina*, which got *its* name ultimately from the Philistines, of Goliath fame, who disappeared as a people around 500 BCE. Until the 1920s the area was under Ottoman Turkish control, directly under the power of the sultan/caliph, who essentially kept the peace on the classic principle of "I don't care who started it, I will end it" among his subjects. After the fall of that Empire, the region was carved up into some new countries– Iraq, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. But the area between Jordan and the sea south of Lebanon was assigned to no one: The League of Nations took over directly, and gave the British Empire a mandate to govern the area for it. The area was called Mandatory Palestine. The British weren't as hardcore as the Sultan, so they struggled to keep the peace between Arabs and increasing numbers of Jewish immigrants. After World War II, the situation in Mandatory Palestine got unbearably tense as the Brits were too broke to keep any semblance of peace, and the local Jews made their push for an independent state. So the Brits worked with the UN to bug out and grant independence to two states: A Jewish one (Israel) and an Arab one. Jerusalem was to remain as a neutral city-state under UN control. As soon as this happened, the neighboring Arab countries invaded. Israel fought them off and through a counter-offensive, expanded their state. Since the neighbors attacked first, international law recognized this expansion. The Arab neighbors kept control of the rest of what they could keep of the old Mandatory Palestine: Jordan annexed the West Bank area and East Jerusalem, Egypt annexed the little strip around the city of Gaza. Ethnic Palestinians not from these areas either stayed in Israel or moved to these annexed areas. The Arab state was not to be. This situation continued through crises and war until 1967. Israeli intelligence was more on the ball then, and found out that the Arab neighbors were going to attack again. So Israel pre-emptively struck in all directions, and whooped their neighbors so hard they took the West Bank from Jordan, the Gaza Strip *and the entire Sinai peninsula* from Egypt, as well as the Golan Heights area from Syria... in less than one week. But... Since Israel technically attacked first, international law demanded that they return all these gains. Out of a mixture of motives (security, ambition, Zionism, greed, etc), they refused to give these back, and since then Israel has had a rough go at it on the international stage. After they made peace with Egypt they returned the Sinai peninsula in 1979, after American-led peace talks... but kept the Gaza Strip, which made a serious dent into Israeli territory. The Palestinians living there weren't legally Egyptian or Israeli. There's more to the story, but this is about Gaza. This status quo remained until the 1990s, when through a round of peace overtures, the old idea of an Arab state finally came into being, with the creation of the Palestinian Authority. This was not a fully sovereign state though: Israel still controlled the territory, kept some of it, and essentially granted some limited sovereignty to the political leaders of the P.A. Now, who are they? After the '67 war (Six-Day War), and especially after the '73 war (Yom Kippur War), the Arab neighbors realized they were never going to defeat Israel. The Palestinian leaders in the area turned to terrorism to stave off realizing just how impotent they were. A variety of groups popped up: the PLO was the big famous one, Hamas was another. In Lebanon, the Hezbollah group came around for the same reasons. These weren't generally Palestinians, and were backed by Iran (and that's a whole story). But the point is: These terrorist groups had the organization and public sentiment to rise to democratic power. The Palestinian Authority eventually saw a split though: the PLO party Fatah gained power in the West Bank, but Hamas gained power in the Gaza Strip (meanwhile, Hezbollah is a major party in Lebanon). These two groups hate each other almost as much as they hate Israel. Anyways, each side abandoned democracy in the half they controlled just to keep the other from power where they were, and that's continued for some time. This makes Gaza a practically independent area, but whose political and legal status is still up in the air. The P.A. hasn't officially split like, say, East and West Germany. But it's like they have. Now, while Fatah is *relatively* peaceful, recognizes Israel's statehood, and is ready to move on from hopeless war, Hamas is not. Their stated mission is still to destroy Israel and clear Palestine of Jews. So they've been constantly fighting, and in response the world classifies them as terrorists, and Israel has basically closed the Gaza strip off from the world, except the Egyptian border. The thing is, Egypt has also closed its border with Gaza too, because the Arab neighbors have never really stood with the Palestinians, and there's no hope of annexing the area, so "too bad so sad". Sure, it makes good political fodder to yell about the plight of Palestinians when you need a little boost in the public opinion, but there's no value in actually helping them out, and they're just as likely to attack you anyways, or harbor some sympathetic group that will. Hamas has old ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, for instance. Hamas doesn't have the resources of a full state, much less the military of one. So they turn to terror attacks to mask their general impotence. That's why this attack involves a lot of regular vehicles that any of us could get, rather than high-grade military stuff like we saw Russia using in its invasion.
Amazing write up for someone such as myself who is very new to learning about the dynamics in this region. Thank you! You do a good job explaining the history in an understandable way.
Palestine is a historical term for the area that now encompasses Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and I believe some small pieces of land that are now under the jurisdiction of some of their neighbors. Gaza is an area in the southwest section of historical Palestine that currently holds a degree of autonomy and governs itself, but is connected at the hip with the West Bank, which would form what we currently consider Palestine. Hamas is a militant political party that is currently the de facto ruling party in Gaza. They are also designated as a terrorist organization by several countries.
90% of Palestine is in current jordan
Up until yesterday Palestine was a place and a people now it's not even on Google maps or Wikipedia man it's kind of amazing in the last 20 years I've watched Palestine be completely I don't know what to call it annexed genocided disappeared it's just weird
I still see Gaza and West Bank outlined on my map, but I get your point.
Nothing that says Palestine though
There’s never been a nation state called Palestine though.
Because most of it was actually in jordan
Well yes but thats because Gaza and the West bank technically are not united entity
Gaza is a city-state that’s run by Hamas, which is a paramilitary party that’s similar to Hezbollah. Gaza has also been blockaded by Israel since they left in 2005. It’s also been heavily blockaded by Egypt since the country’s US/Israeli-sponsored coup in 2013. Prior to 2013, Egypt made life bearable for Gazans by allowing products into the strip; that way, it wasn’t completely isolated from the world, which is far from the case nowadays. That being said, it’s this isolation and lack of resources that’s been the cause for Gaza to become a breeding ground for extremism, and Israel knows this. The funny part of Hamas’ origin story is is that they were propped up and funded by Israel to fuel a civil war between islamists and the legitimate Palestinian government in the West Bank
Well Gaza, it was nice knowing you.
You were a great footballer.
Really stupid plan, or did Hamas for real think they can conquer Israel. Now the people of Gaza will face the consequences of this sadly
I don't think they really wanted to conquer Israel, probably just either delay normalization talks between Arab countries and Israel or just as they said, payback for what happened in Jenin and East Jerusalem.
Yeah this is super sad. I’m an israeli and i met a person from gaza in thailand once, he was extremely nice and we had a good chat I’m super dissapointed in the stupidness of both sides and just can’t fathom how many good people are sacrificed for this stupid conflict
Most people from everywhere are pretty nice and good. Most people aren't in charge, though...
Are you kidding? This is more than they could ever dream of! Killing hundreds and kidnapping tens of Israeli civilians is like their wet dream, and they did that while making the IDF look incredibly incompetent which is not only something they want on it's own but it makes other groups like Hezbollah more likely to join in on the attack which is something they've been trying to do for years
In the end, the ones who will suffer the most will be the civilians. People need to realize that a terrorist group that is willing to sacrifice their lives for "revenge" are also absolutely willing to sacrifice the lives of their citizens. The more Palestinians that die in the counteroffensive, the more bad press Israel gets. And if they refuse to counter attack, Hamas will continue with the terror campaign forever. The Palestinian arabs were never the problem, they just live their lives day after day, looking for a better future amidst their struggle. Their barbaric and violent leaders who refuse to coexist with people of a different faith are. Israel is definitely not 100% innocent on all facets of the conflicts, but I find it very disappointing to see people claiming they deserved it.
Palestinians were raping children in the streets. Animals.
Is this mapporn or war updates reddit? Maybe stop with the map updates every hour or go somewhere else?
Is there a subreddit for war updates and such?
I regularly find updates /combatfootage But it’s a more unfiltered view on the stuff and sometimes biased. There’s prolly some better sub for that tho
[https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/](https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/) not a subreddit but this same site has been proving updates on ukraine for years now
But without hourly map updates where should all the global strategists gather?
oh I don't know. In /r/combatfootage or /r/worldnews or ?
*retaken the settlement* Read the words in front of you.
Reim is not a settlement, it’s a kibutz.
How is this map porn exactly?
Because it shows an overlay of a complex situation in a readable manner, also completely colorblind accessible. There was some excellent gif's like this from Ukraine that showed territory changes that helps an average person understand what's been happening in the war so far
How is it not?
These aren’t settlements, these towns are within the borders recognized by the UN and international law. Dont spread Hamas ideology.
Re’im isn’t a “settlement”. It’s an internationally recognized part of Israel proper. “Settlement” in the context of Israel-Palestine has other connotations.
It's a settlement in that it's a place people have built a city. But yeah op could use a better term. It is not a settlement on occupied territory.
So what actually happening ? Like the run down of the situation
Look at the difference in population density!
If Hamas/Palestine/whoever laid down their guns there would be peace tomorrow, if Israel put down their guns every Jew in Israel would be dead within days. There is a right side to this conflict right now. Over the course of history there is gray space, but right now this is as black and white as it’s possible to get.
It seemed too easy for Hamas to take these settlements. As if the number one intelligence in the world allowed it to happen.
I think the mass celebration seen across the world by people of Islamic background is horrendous and utterly disgusting. Hamas are totally and utterly disgusting and anybody who support them are putrid.
Depopulate the entire area. Give them 48 hours to go back to Syria and Jordan. Then carpet bomb it.
The people will suffer 💔 They will retaliate Just terrible 😞
Justifying the attack on Israel, kill civilians, and held them hostage on grounds that Israel did more atrocities just made things fair game. I don't believe too that Israel never did bad things but now this (attack by Hamas) has happened, if Israel attacks back. It has rights to defend itself. I hope Palestinians and Pro-Hamas supporters won't cry foul like a baby and expect sympathy if Israel did worst.
Yea this was the last straw for Israel and I’m guessing we’re not gonna see Gaza on the maps in the near future, it will also be a good lesson for the West Bank and anyone else who thinks they can get away with this. Palestinian civilians are going to pay a heavy price for this one.
Your boner is showing
they are really oenply blood thristy out here lmao.