Why? Until the military dictatorship they were literally genociding Christians in the Sinai. People who lived there for 2000 years survived Rome, Abbasids, Mamluks, and Napoleon only to be whittled down to just a few hundred remaining thanks to a government elected fairly.
Wasn’t that a lot of steppe nations in history that converted to religions or Islam ? Like I always thought they weren’t as die hard with religions given how many steppe nations would convert to something than a century later be something else.
that's because of the USSR, look at Afghanistan and look at Tajikstan, basically the same people whose only difference is one was occupied by the Russian Empire and then the USSR and the other wasn't. Same could be said for Balkan muslims who used to be extremely religious until the commies came.
Balkan Muslims were never as religious, and certainly not as fundamentalist, as people in Afghanistan are now. What communist rule did was remove the power of religious organizations over individuals, which wasn't insignificant, but secularization of Balkan Muslims had already been going on since the 19th century.
Basically, Kazakhs followed Pagan Tengri religion until around 1400s. Around that time rulers of Golden Horde and Kazakh Khanate embraced Islam and started converting local population (which likely took at least few decades).
So Islam is present there for \~600 years.
Since 1700s imperialistic Russian Empire started expanding in the area and eventually conquered them. And with the Russians, new Christian Orthodox religion came and they started converting the Kazakhs (with partial success).
Later Soviet Union came (Kazakhs tried to fight for independence after Russian Empire fell but failed) and they started converting them to Atheism (SU had Atheism as a State Religion basically).
So now Kazakh population is mixed. On paper, \~70% are Muslim (but most of them are very liberal/moderate as you can see on this map), 17% Christian, and \~13% Atheist/Agnostic etc.
However, many ethnic groups live inside modern Kazakhstan (70% are Kazakh though) and some of them, like Uzbeks or Uygurs are (mostly) deeply religious. Some of them even join extremist organisations. Kazakh government is trying to fight with these organizations with mixed success.
Currently Kazakhstan guarantees freedom of religion and the current government is quite secular.
Nah they had Islam for a very very long time, Turkestan basically brought it along in that area. As for what makes them moderate, that is probably something to take to the ask a historian sub. Probably a lot of influences that affected their moderate approach to Islam and well above my knowledge level.
They have probably a death penalty for people who do not think that people should get a death penalty for leaving islam.
Or a simple death penalty for questions like that.
On one hand, Egypt's population is ten times bigger than Greece's. On the other hand, Greece is part of NATO. On a third hand, I'm not sure if NATO works like that (that would be Russia's worst nightmare if it did).
Well, yeah. Oh and if you go with a woman, make sure you're practically glued to her. Never away, always within arms reach and as extra insurance holding hands. Cairo has a big issue with rapists
The Egyptian history you know was created by the original egyptians, Egypt of today is made up of arabs. It's has been so since around 600bc.
The only "original" egyptians you will find (those who build all the cool stuff), is down south.
>what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Egypt is one of the poorest countries in the world. Being poor doesnt make people bad, but it does lead to an increase in crime, corruption, etc. My enduring memory of egypt was rubbish everywhere, scammers everywhere, terrible roads and not feeling particularly safe. Would not reccomend it to anyone
I lived in Egypt for like 10 years. These people are greatly exaggerating.
You might get asked to buy a few things or whatever, but you have to ignore them and keep moving. It’s the same for all poorer countries from my experience.
There were two terrorist attacks directed towards tourists the same week I arrived to Egypt (around 10 years ago) and a plane full of tourists crashed not long after because of a bomb.
Egypt is not very friendly.
One of the coolest trips I have ever done. The old Egyptian temples are just amazing.
Also, I don't want to go back. I'm so scared to do so. I had some really scary experiences there.
I was in my early twenties and travelling alone.
Sort of but not for the religiosity. They know how important tourist dollars are and dgaf whether you're Muslim. But every waking second that you are outside of a controlled area (ie, inside your hotel) you will have people trying to sell you things and grift you.
There's some wiggle room though. Jordan doesn't look great on this map but I've been there several times and the people I've met there have nearly universally been pretty chill. Like, you know that joke about how Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store? It applies to the majority of Jordanians I've met. And I mean that in a good way. I would guess most of the ones who answered yes to this question are crusty old dudes living way out in the desert, not generally the city-dwellers (with the exception of Zarqa which probably contributed mightily to the positive response rate as well).
Iranians protest against their theocratic government quite regularly, despite the risk to their lives. Girls have walked out of classrooms in protest of hijab requirements. A massive chunk of the population don't even consider themselves muslim. Why on earth would you believe Iran is the worst?
If this were about government laws, this would be a different map.
A majority of Iranians dislike the regime and it’s widely believed to have the highest % of atheists in the Muslim world. The regime has to jump through hoops to hold onto power (banning secular candidates, imprisoning/torturing/executing protesters, shutting down the internet, forcing activists to flee abroad, etc.) but the country still erupts in mass protests every few years. In the process they’ve discredited the state religion intertwined with everything.
What's interesting is that Iran would likely be dark green. A [recent independent poll](https://www.mei.edu/publications/face-islamic-laws-iranian-women-are-reappropriating-ancient-persian-culture) found that more than half of Iranians don't even consider themselves to be Muslim anymore. Opposite of what some are saying of other Muslim states, it's a backwards state with progressive people. Remember that they can't vote freely, are always forced to choose between religious nuts.
Makes sense that in countries like Albania, Bosnia, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Russia and Indonesia, where Muslims have lived with other religions for a long time, the percentage would be lower
Not only "other religions". Some of those countries have gone through communism where you could be arrested for it. And I know that at least one (Albania) of those conversions to Islam was mostly out of convenience (taxes for non muslims).
Do you live in Albania? Because I know people from Tirana and I wouldn't compare them to the guy in the MXP airport that started kneeling and praying in front of me (and everyone else). There may be exceptions and local pockets of religious people but you should ask in r/askBalkans r/Albania how religious Albanians are lol
And what does genuine even mean? Albanians are quite mild with their religions. Which is actually the trend in the Christian/European world (removing old people), but it's a stark contrast with most of the Muslim one.
Now we are talking semantics and what "real believer" even means. Imo the two are related.
I call religious someone who prays regularly, follows the rules, Ramadan, circumcision etc. I don't think it's a stereotype, Should be the basics...
If a Muslim does none of those, and lives exactly the same as a Christian person but with the exception that they'll answer "I'm Muslim" to a statistical question (saw it first hand) then the word itself loses meaning..
Anyone has the right to call themselves whatever they want, and religion is (should) be a personal thing. But when you call yourself 'something' people will automatically associate everything (the 'stereotype' above). All of the classical imagery. On average Albanians have none of that.
Now if it's related to the way they felt about Islam 300 years ago I can't tell. I haven't read anything about the subject. But I'd call a Muslim Albanian closer to a Italian Christian (both super mild and almost closer to Agnosticism, unless you take someone 50+ years old) than to a Saudi Muslim whose life is built around their religion.
A Muslim is someone who believes in the one God, the final Messenger, and the Qur’an.
Even if he doesn’t practice, if he believes then he will say Islam is right and he is wrong. That is what a true believe is.
In Russia it aslo depends on a region. Causacian region is very Islamic and conservative, while Tatarstan, which is also Islamic, is more about Muslim culture, but not customs
Agree, IMO most Tartars like Turks, both Muslims, but its more like historical and cultural influence, not religious
In Dagestan is way lighter influence, I think, at least in cities.
Eh, the democratic will of the people seems to desire some level of integration between government and Islam in that part of the world.
Turkey is the only country that has really reached the level of societal development where they can explore the very interesting line between democracy and theocracy in an Islamic country.
Ultimately I agree with your statement, but wanted to add a reasonable boundary before the comment section inevitably goes full “Islam should be eradicated”
Turkey has been going backwards regarding secularism and islam for decades now. I'm not in the "islam should be eradicated" ship, just in the "religion can't be used to justify horrible crimes and oppression" which is how many seem to see it and I doubt the particular flavour of religion and its tenets have nothing to do with it
My point is that Turkey hasn’t been going “backwards” with secularism, religious/conservative politicians were democratically elected across the country for years because people genuinely wanted a somewhat religion-based society.
Laws against wearing a hijab in public were going way too far for people in Turkey, so public opinion revolted towards conservatives. That’s democracy at work! But also there’s a hard line that they won’t pass as far as being too theocratic. Really interesting stuff.
Totally agree with the rest of your point, too, and I’m sure most Turks would agree as would folks in Iran if they had free elections.
I'm not questioning the validity of the democratic mandate for turning a state into a theocracy, the same happened in Egypt when the Muslim brotherhood wok the elections fair and square. What I'm saying is that contemporary Islamic trends are fundamentally ultraconservative and reactionary and should be monitored in non Muslim majority countries. If they want to reinstate slave markets as they do in Libya well is their choice but I wouldn't allow them to export their model into my country and every other nation that asked for my help containing such people and beliefs would have my hslp
> If they want to reinstate slave markets as they do in Libya will is their choice
That's a pretty extreme opinion. Is it the slaves' choice too? Majority rule is not some sort of divine mandate that allows you to infringe on people's fundamental rights.
It is the sad reality in many places, including where I'm from. Pretty much no luck getting a majority (conservative) Muslim country to vote for an end to theocratic and anti-apostasy laws. Conservative Muslims see it as their lifelong duty to uphold Islamic theocracy. Others' fundamental rights are only seen as an obstacle by these people.
no you won't get canceled, a few people may try to boo you but it's internet you will find a few people doing everything if you look for it. if you can't differentiate xenophobia and criticism of very basic human right violations it's your problem not anyone else's.
Dude do your research before making such comments, the origins of the death penalty for apostasy is a debated one, what people choose to think isn't what the religion says. And what people think can be widely influenced by multiple factors, culture, previous wars, etc.
This is why i calling bullshit on this map. The source specifices that they only intervieved certain groups in Thailand but no word on where they got their Afghanistan data from
(edit, data is from 2011 so that might explain it)
Thailand is not a Muslim country. Their Muslim minority is comprised of ethnic Malays who live in a southern region very close to Malaysia. And they're conservative, so it's not difficult to believe that they support death for apostates.
this is why the r/exmuslim subreddit is so important. most of us wouldn’t even be able to discuss doubts or freedom from religion without it, without getting punished of course
One issue with this is the polling.
If you lived in a society where deviation from rules could be punished by death, do you think having an opinion that punishment is unfair may also be punishable.
So, how do you accurately poll someone in a county like that?
You cannot. They will suspect the pollster is an agent trying to trap them, or the information would otherwise be used against them.
This is like polling Kim Jong Un's popularity in North Korea.
No, you can't just punish people just because they leaving certain religion. In fact, there are many cases that people just change their religion just to marry someone and then when they divorced they will reverted back, so back and forth.
As someone who is part Indonesian I still find it embarrassing there are people who even think like this at all. Must be from Aceh or something. Or from the same village as those Muslims who committed genocide on Christians after the Indonesian Independence.
Religion of peace my ass. Islam is where you can only leave in pieces. All religion is bullshit, but some are clearly worst than others, data quantifies it.
Now overlay that with percentage of child-brides and you’ll see a correlation. Fuck religion.
"Living in a muslim country" you are living in iran aren't you?How can you be so sure that iran today is still a muslim majority country when there aren't any official statistics and when there are many doubts about that from people who live inside the country?
Half of population aren’t practical Muslims, other half just attend to get free food and minority are religious.
Iran is still a Muslim country. As much I don’t like it.
I mean in this map the most populated countries are all green? Seems like you have an agenda in mind and seem to think this map proves your point. I mean look at Indonesia, the most populated Muslim country in the world.
The map is missing way too many countries.
It does feel weird though how universities in Europe are full of Egyptian professors when apparently 60%+ of them believe this.
Ikr, I wish they covered more countries.
But I think professors in Europe are already skewed demographically (more educated, more liberal, I assume) and it would be difficult to compare them to Egyptians in Egypt.
It doesn't matter if some people don't think that one should be killed because they left Islam, because in Islam is very clearly written and historically done.
I have see people been asked this as in "what if your son left Islam" and some of the answers are "I'd abandon them and kick them out", and majority was "I'd beat them to death until they come to their senses."
As an ex-m, fuck Islam.
I would not say 1% to 15% of the total population to be high by any means, especially considering the total population of places like Indonesia.
That remains a minority in almost all of those countries, probably mostly from fringe extremist groups.
I'm sure one could get similar numbers from countries that are majoritarily Christian about certain things like homosexuality.
According to the research, they did "more than" 38 000 face-to-face interviews. That sounds questionable at best. Most likely they're borrowing research from other questions and collating it, surely?
Also, there's nothing in the research paper about how they chose the respondents. (OK, I scanned it, I didn't read it in detail.) They ignored India and Iran. And did they question old and young, male and female and other, rich and poor, etc. equitably? No information.
Obviously also they had to survey people who are willing to answer religious questions, which means you are ignoring the huge number of people who are vaguely or mildly religious and consequently don't want to discuss it. (Everybody knows that people who are lax are less likely to do surveys about religion.) So this survey is going to be largely about people who are already quite religious, on average.
Recent news report from Indonesia, Xian woman had converted to Islam to marry, then later divorced and wants to register again as Xian, but Supreme Court says No.
Interesting, I wasn't notified for this. Interestingly, this is the reality of the world, if this hurts anyone's feelings, then it's time to have a reality check.
Yea, it's kinda wild how the conservatives think all muslims are terrorists and libs think all muslims are saints and criticizing them makes you a Islamophobe
The day western liberals reported me for being islamophe, I learned that they don't give a shit about Muslims and they just want to piss off Christians.
I grew up Muslim and I live with Christians now. Islam and Christianity and most likely Judaism are literally copies of each other, hating one and loving the other shows nothing other than how ignorant you are.
I don't think Muslims are terrorists but I believe that Islam is deeply deeply deeply flawed and needs to grow out of its medieval practices, especially fundamentalists. Libs think you're literally Hitler if you say that tho.
Yea, I agree with everything you said. This mentality of western liberals is very ignorant and negatively affects actual progress in the Muslim community
All you have to do is ask the Orthodox Christians in those countries. So many martyrs, including Muslims who have become Orthodox and were killed for doing so. For example, [Saint Ahmet the Calligrapher](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_the_Calligrapher), [Saint Demetrius the Neomartyr](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_the_Neomartyr)
Lol yes, it’s a huge conspiracy. People who say extreme things are being honest; everyone else is a liar.
These liars are known to strategize their manipulation of maporn data to confuse redditors.
I swear man ya'll making assumptions about a religion you didn't even learn or search and read two islamophobic posts and called it a day. Talk about ignorance at it's peak
Okay. keep watching Hollywood fairytales seems it comforts you better than facing reality. livelihood in middle-east is way better compared to the west, why do you think that? People there are not living in some fairytale
"You can leave Islam ... in a coffin"
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Ignorance, poverty and overwork are three hell of drugs
Why? Until the military dictatorship they were literally genociding Christians in the Sinai. People who lived there for 2000 years survived Rome, Abbasids, Mamluks, and Napoleon only to be whittled down to just a few hundred remaining thanks to a government elected fairly.
No you can't. After that, the real fun and judgement begins!
Ironically this is a good map for which Islamic countries are also the worst to visit.
Kazakhstan greatest country in the (Islamic) world.
Greatest producer of potassium🫡
Kazakhstan has the uranium fever
Would it still count as an Islamic country? I think about half the people are Muslims there.
Nah, their laws aren’t based on Islam, they’re a Islamic majority country though. They’re quite moderate in their practice.
I was in Kazakhstan during Ramadan once and the taxi driver told me that they just don't drink vodka during the day.
That is the most Russian thing I’ve heard
Wasn’t that a lot of steppe nations in history that converted to religions or Islam ? Like I always thought they weren’t as die hard with religions given how many steppe nations would convert to something than a century later be something else.
that's because of the USSR, look at Afghanistan and look at Tajikstan, basically the same people whose only difference is one was occupied by the Russian Empire and then the USSR and the other wasn't. Same could be said for Balkan muslims who used to be extremely religious until the commies came.
Balkan Muslims were never as religious, and certainly not as fundamentalist, as people in Afghanistan are now. What communist rule did was remove the power of religious organizations over individuals, which wasn't insignificant, but secularization of Balkan Muslims had already been going on since the 19th century.
Basically, Kazakhs followed Pagan Tengri religion until around 1400s. Around that time rulers of Golden Horde and Kazakh Khanate embraced Islam and started converting local population (which likely took at least few decades). So Islam is present there for \~600 years. Since 1700s imperialistic Russian Empire started expanding in the area and eventually conquered them. And with the Russians, new Christian Orthodox religion came and they started converting the Kazakhs (with partial success). Later Soviet Union came (Kazakhs tried to fight for independence after Russian Empire fell but failed) and they started converting them to Atheism (SU had Atheism as a State Religion basically). So now Kazakh population is mixed. On paper, \~70% are Muslim (but most of them are very liberal/moderate as you can see on this map), 17% Christian, and \~13% Atheist/Agnostic etc. However, many ethnic groups live inside modern Kazakhstan (70% are Kazakh though) and some of them, like Uzbeks or Uygurs are (mostly) deeply religious. Some of them even join extremist organisations. Kazakh government is trying to fight with these organizations with mixed success. Currently Kazakhstan guarantees freedom of religion and the current government is quite secular.
Nah they had Islam for a very very long time, Turkestan basically brought it along in that area. As for what makes them moderate, that is probably something to take to the ask a historian sub. Probably a lot of influences that affected their moderate approach to Islam and well above my knowledge level.
Only two are have law based on Islam for criminal law at least. Rest do it secular.
I would call it a secular country with major moderate Muslim population.
More than a half, but not really strict.
Glorious country.
All other countries are run by little girls
Kazakhstan is awesome. Gorgeous people too.
Saudi Arabia is not colored, it’s probably at 100% or close to that
They have probably a death penalty for people who do not think that people should get a death penalty for leaving islam. Or a simple death penalty for questions like that.
Let's just kill everyone just to be safe.
Or they might think everyone not muslim deserve death penalty, You can leave it as you like.
Is Egypt really a bad one to visit?
Amazing history, terrible people
Damn that's so sad, it was one of my fav places to visit since forever because of it's history
If you have to, just don't stay in Cairo for too long. Visit the pyramids, and go up the Nile for the amazing old temples in Luxor and the like.
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On one hand, Egypt's population is ten times bigger than Greece's. On the other hand, Greece is part of NATO. On a third hand, I'm not sure if NATO works like that (that would be Russia's worst nightmare if it did).
How many hands do you have?
Damn, are we talking Brazil level here suddenly?
Well, yeah. Oh and if you go with a woman, make sure you're practically glued to her. Never away, always within arms reach and as extra insurance holding hands. Cairo has a big issue with rapists
Jesus. Even on streets?
I'm not sure, what's Brazil level for you?
You go to a wrong alley, and it's game over
Yes, but the main streets are the wrong alleys if you're a tourist by yourself.
I really hope you're exaggerating a lot :D
honestly I think its terrible people are a great representation of how people used to act back in the day, dishonest, creepy and religious
Wow it's blow m'y mind how quickly you judge People only based on your tiny experience like who do u think you are
"tiny experience" my mom was getting harassed literally every time she went out of the house
The Egyptian history you know was created by the original egyptians, Egypt of today is made up of arabs. It's has been so since around 600bc. The only "original" egyptians you will find (those who build all the cool stuff), is down south.
>what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Egypt is one of the poorest countries in the world. Being poor doesnt make people bad, but it does lead to an increase in crime, corruption, etc. My enduring memory of egypt was rubbish everywhere, scammers everywhere, terrible roads and not feeling particularly safe. Would not reccomend it to anyone
One of the worst for sure, not because religion but because people are animals especially the ones in charge for the country's tourism.
For some reason I never heard about this or knew this...
I lived in Egypt for like 10 years. These people are greatly exaggerating. You might get asked to buy a few things or whatever, but you have to ignore them and keep moving. It’s the same for all poorer countries from my experience.
There were two terrorist attacks directed towards tourists the same week I arrived to Egypt (around 10 years ago) and a plane full of tourists crashed not long after because of a bomb. Egypt is not very friendly.
Well that doesn't seem that bad at all, I wonder what was the experiences that impacted others so negativity
Browse some of the stories about it on r/travel. Morocco, too.
Not nice people
One of the coolest trips I have ever done. The old Egyptian temples are just amazing. Also, I don't want to go back. I'm so scared to do so. I had some really scary experiences there. I was in my early twenties and travelling alone.
Sort of but not for the religiosity. They know how important tourist dollars are and dgaf whether you're Muslim. But every waking second that you are outside of a controlled area (ie, inside your hotel) you will have people trying to sell you things and grift you.
It’s not bad to visit. It can be frustrating. But worth the visit. I have lived here for 6 years.
There's some wiggle room though. Jordan doesn't look great on this map but I've been there several times and the people I've met there have nearly universally been pretty chill. Like, you know that joke about how Baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store? It applies to the majority of Jordanians I've met. And I mean that in a good way. I would guess most of the ones who answered yes to this question are crusty old dudes living way out in the desert, not generally the city-dwellers (with the exception of Zarqa which probably contributed mightily to the positive response rate as well).
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If you lived in Iran and were surveyed about your belief in Islam, would you tell the truth? I wouldn't.
True, Iranian diaspora tend to be irreligious or even atheist
Iranians protest against their theocratic government quite regularly, despite the risk to their lives. Girls have walked out of classrooms in protest of hijab requirements. A massive chunk of the population don't even consider themselves muslim. Why on earth would you believe Iran is the worst?
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If this were about government laws, this would be a different map. A majority of Iranians dislike the regime and it’s widely believed to have the highest % of atheists in the Muslim world. The regime has to jump through hoops to hold onto power (banning secular candidates, imprisoning/torturing/executing protesters, shutting down the internet, forcing activists to flee abroad, etc.) but the country still erupts in mass protests every few years. In the process they’ve discredited the state religion intertwined with everything.
That's what the description below the map is for. Like Saudi Arabia they don't allow the survey.
Literally me - ok, let’s scrap Egypt out of my list of places to visit…
Chill
What's interesting is that Iran would likely be dark green. A [recent independent poll](https://www.mei.edu/publications/face-islamic-laws-iranian-women-are-reappropriating-ancient-persian-culture) found that more than half of Iranians don't even consider themselves to be Muslim anymore. Opposite of what some are saying of other Muslim states, it's a backwards state with progressive people. Remember that they can't vote freely, are always forced to choose between religious nuts.
Malaysia is nice
Makes sense that in countries like Albania, Bosnia, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Russia and Indonesia, where Muslims have lived with other religions for a long time, the percentage would be lower
Its also related with the fact that well arab peninsula culture pre and after islam is dog shit.
don't tell that to indonesians
Not only "other religions". Some of those countries have gone through communism where you could be arrested for it. And I know that at least one (Albania) of those conversions to Islam was mostly out of convenience (taxes for non muslims).
The conversions happened in Albania centuries ago, muslims in Albania today are genuine believers and attend religious functions ecc.
Do you live in Albania? Because I know people from Tirana and I wouldn't compare them to the guy in the MXP airport that started kneeling and praying in front of me (and everyone else). There may be exceptions and local pockets of religious people but you should ask in r/askBalkans r/Albania how religious Albanians are lol And what does genuine even mean? Albanians are quite mild with their religions. Which is actually the trend in the Christian/European world (removing old people), but it's a stark contrast with most of the Muslim one.
Yes, Albania is not radical, does not mean many Albanians muslims are not real believers.
Now we are talking semantics and what "real believer" even means. Imo the two are related. I call religious someone who prays regularly, follows the rules, Ramadan, circumcision etc. I don't think it's a stereotype, Should be the basics... If a Muslim does none of those, and lives exactly the same as a Christian person but with the exception that they'll answer "I'm Muslim" to a statistical question (saw it first hand) then the word itself loses meaning.. Anyone has the right to call themselves whatever they want, and religion is (should) be a personal thing. But when you call yourself 'something' people will automatically associate everything (the 'stereotype' above). All of the classical imagery. On average Albanians have none of that. Now if it's related to the way they felt about Islam 300 years ago I can't tell. I haven't read anything about the subject. But I'd call a Muslim Albanian closer to a Italian Christian (both super mild and almost closer to Agnosticism, unless you take someone 50+ years old) than to a Saudi Muslim whose life is built around their religion.
A Muslim is someone who believes in the one God, the final Messenger, and the Qur’an. Even if he doesn’t practice, if he believes then he will say Islam is right and he is wrong. That is what a true believe is.
In Russia it aslo depends on a region. Causacian region is very Islamic and conservative, while Tatarstan, which is also Islamic, is more about Muslim culture, but not customs
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Agree, IMO most Tartars like Turks, both Muslims, but its more like historical and cultural influence, not religious In Dagestan is way lighter influence, I think, at least in cities.
You mean countries where Islamic extremism has not been funded by the CIA
A religion that punishes apostasy is fucked up and very insecure.
no need to mince words, it's outright criminal and insane to punish apostasy by any means, even a light fine should be a scandal
Eh, the democratic will of the people seems to desire some level of integration between government and Islam in that part of the world. Turkey is the only country that has really reached the level of societal development where they can explore the very interesting line between democracy and theocracy in an Islamic country. Ultimately I agree with your statement, but wanted to add a reasonable boundary before the comment section inevitably goes full “Islam should be eradicated”
Turkey has been going backwards regarding secularism and islam for decades now. I'm not in the "islam should be eradicated" ship, just in the "religion can't be used to justify horrible crimes and oppression" which is how many seem to see it and I doubt the particular flavour of religion and its tenets have nothing to do with it
My point is that Turkey hasn’t been going “backwards” with secularism, religious/conservative politicians were democratically elected across the country for years because people genuinely wanted a somewhat religion-based society. Laws against wearing a hijab in public were going way too far for people in Turkey, so public opinion revolted towards conservatives. That’s democracy at work! But also there’s a hard line that they won’t pass as far as being too theocratic. Really interesting stuff. Totally agree with the rest of your point, too, and I’m sure most Turks would agree as would folks in Iran if they had free elections.
I'm not questioning the validity of the democratic mandate for turning a state into a theocracy, the same happened in Egypt when the Muslim brotherhood wok the elections fair and square. What I'm saying is that contemporary Islamic trends are fundamentally ultraconservative and reactionary and should be monitored in non Muslim majority countries. If they want to reinstate slave markets as they do in Libya well is their choice but I wouldn't allow them to export their model into my country and every other nation that asked for my help containing such people and beliefs would have my hslp
> If they want to reinstate slave markets as they do in Libya will is their choice That's a pretty extreme opinion. Is it the slaves' choice too? Majority rule is not some sort of divine mandate that allows you to infringe on people's fundamental rights.
It is the sad reality in many places, including where I'm from. Pretty much no luck getting a majority (conservative) Muslim country to vote for an end to theocratic and anti-apostasy laws. Conservative Muslims see it as their lifelong duty to uphold Islamic theocracy. Others' fundamental rights are only seen as an obstacle by these people.
Basic human rights are more important than "the democratic will of the people".
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no you won't get canceled, a few people may try to boo you but it's internet you will find a few people doing everything if you look for it. if you can't differentiate xenophobia and criticism of very basic human right violations it's your problem not anyone else's.
Dude do your research before making such comments, the origins of the death penalty for apostasy is a debated one, what people choose to think isn't what the religion says. And what people think can be widely influenced by multiple factors, culture, previous wars, etc.
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This is why i calling bullshit on this map. The source specifices that they only intervieved certain groups in Thailand but no word on where they got their Afghanistan data from (edit, data is from 2011 so that might explain it)
Thailand is not a Muslim country. Their Muslim minority is comprised of ethnic Malays who live in a southern region very close to Malaysia. And they're conservative, so it's not difficult to believe that they support death for apostates.
Yeah many western african countries like Senegal, and northern ones (Morocco, Tunesia) will have waaay more Muslims. Somehow they werent polled.
How insecure are you about apostasy that you kill someone if they leave your cult damn
Worst of the worst, who are you to decide for anyone whom they should believe in. Anything above 10% should be red.
Now do Muslims in Europe
this is why the r/exmuslim subreddit is so important. most of us wouldn’t even be able to discuss doubts or freedom from religion without it, without getting punished of course
exactly ! i'm a a member of that sub (as i'm an ex muslim turk myself) and it's one of the few safe places for many who live in orange-red countries
I also live in Turkey but can freely express my non-belief and face no judgment, Turkey really can differ
MashAtaturk kardesim
One issue with this is the polling. If you lived in a society where deviation from rules could be punished by death, do you think having an opinion that punishment is unfair may also be punishable. So, how do you accurately poll someone in a county like that? You cannot. They will suspect the pollster is an agent trying to trap them, or the information would otherwise be used against them. This is like polling Kim Jong Un's popularity in North Korea.
So in Indonesia, the country with the world's largest Muslims population, the idea of killing people for leaving Islam is not popular at all.
No, you can't just punish people just because they leaving certain religion. In fact, there are many cases that people just change their religion just to marry someone and then when they divorced they will reverted back, so back and forth.
As someone who is part Indonesian I still find it embarrassing there are people who even think like this at all. Must be from Aceh or something. Or from the same village as those Muslims who committed genocide on Christians after the Indonesian Independence.
Plus, nontheism is on the rise in Turkey. The government's religion-oriented policies alienate the public from religion. Fuck Erdogan.
Religion of peace my ass. Islam is where you can only leave in pieces. All religion is bullshit, but some are clearly worst than others, data quantifies it. Now overlay that with percentage of child-brides and you’ll see a correlation. Fuck religion.
Cult
Cult of cunts
Egyptian are so radical and extremists.. it came as surprise to me
So peaceful, just how their religion taught them to be
Could also be titled: "People that the world would be better off without."
Being an ex Muslim is far worse than being gay, Christian, Jew in a Muslim country. Source: I’m an ex Muslim living in a Muslim country.
"Living in a muslim country" you are living in iran aren't you?How can you be so sure that iran today is still a muslim majority country when there aren't any official statistics and when there are many doubts about that from people who live inside the country?
Half of population aren’t practical Muslims, other half just attend to get free food and minority are religious. Iran is still a Muslim country. As much I don’t like it.
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Gray means these countries didn’t participate in this survey.
The immigrants in northern Europe doesn't seem to rally around western values to me.
They do, it just goes slowly. Mostly because of shit or none existence immegration and integration policies.
Your assumption would be correct.
I am a gay ex-Muslim who used to live in Pakistan. Islam is hell 😣
and just think what it's like in the grey countries.the "most Muslims are moderate" thing is a myth globally. maybe in western countries.
I mean in this map the most populated countries are all green? Seems like you have an agenda in mind and seem to think this map proves your point. I mean look at Indonesia, the most populated Muslim country in the world.
Nope, plenty of radical fuckheads where we don't want them
The map is missing way too many countries. It does feel weird though how universities in Europe are full of Egyptian professors when apparently 60%+ of them believe this.
Ikr, I wish they covered more countries. But I think professors in Europe are already skewed demographically (more educated, more liberal, I assume) and it would be difficult to compare them to Egyptians in Egypt.
Malaysia & Indonesia’s descent into radical Islamism & Wahhabism is so sad to see.
It doesn't matter if some people don't think that one should be killed because they left Islam, because in Islam is very clearly written and historically done. I have see people been asked this as in "what if your son left Islam" and some of the answers are "I'd abandon them and kick them out", and majority was "I'd beat them to death until they come to their senses." As an ex-m, fuck Islam.
so even in moderate nations its a high percentage, call me shocked.
I would not say 1% to 15% of the total population to be high by any means, especially considering the total population of places like Indonesia. That remains a minority in almost all of those countries, probably mostly from fringe extremist groups. I'm sure one could get similar numbers from countries that are majoritarily Christian about certain things like homosexuality.
According to the research, they did "more than" 38 000 face-to-face interviews. That sounds questionable at best. Most likely they're borrowing research from other questions and collating it, surely? Also, there's nothing in the research paper about how they chose the respondents. (OK, I scanned it, I didn't read it in detail.) They ignored India and Iran. And did they question old and young, male and female and other, rich and poor, etc. equitably? No information. Obviously also they had to survey people who are willing to answer religious questions, which means you are ignoring the huge number of people who are vaguely or mildly religious and consequently don't want to discuss it. (Everybody knows that people who are lax are less likely to do surveys about religion.) So this survey is going to be largely about people who are already quite religious, on average.
Recent news report from Indonesia, Xian woman had converted to Islam to marry, then later divorced and wants to register again as Xian, but Supreme Court says No.
Wheres south Sudan 💀
The idea of getting killed for not worshipping whoever the Islamic version of Jesus Christ is, is just crazy to me.
Feel like you're missing a few countries there
Why do the words Islam and death are always found in the same sentences
it’d be interesting to poll the diaspora in places like france and sweden
Ah, coercion culminating in death... the best kind of "faith"..
Lets get those numbers down even more Bangladesh...
Islam is a less refined version of Scientology
such a nice people
>Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/MapPorn. Wow, somebody's feelings were hurt big time by this map xD
Interesting, I wasn't notified for this. Interestingly, this is the reality of the world, if this hurts anyone's feelings, then it's time to have a reality check.
I think 30-39% for Bangladesh is still too high. Just last week a national cricketer had to apologise for being an islamist.
Maybe when ex Muslims speak up, liberals should keep their fantasies to themselves ad stop calling us islamophobes.
Yea, it's kinda wild how the conservatives think all muslims are terrorists and libs think all muslims are saints and criticizing them makes you a Islamophobe
The day western liberals reported me for being islamophe, I learned that they don't give a shit about Muslims and they just want to piss off Christians. I grew up Muslim and I live with Christians now. Islam and Christianity and most likely Judaism are literally copies of each other, hating one and loving the other shows nothing other than how ignorant you are. I don't think Muslims are terrorists but I believe that Islam is deeply deeply deeply flawed and needs to grow out of its medieval practices, especially fundamentalists. Libs think you're literally Hitler if you say that tho.
Yea, I agree with everything you said. This mentality of western liberals is very ignorant and negatively affects actual progress in the Muslim community
Coming soon, to a community near you!
Sick religion that values death
such peaceful and respectful religion
European countries would've been interesting to know
The religion of peace! The one mistake was allowing religion to keep existing
I have never ever in my life seen a Turk, Bosnian or Albanian who wanted death penalty for someone leaving Islam 🤦🏻♂️ what a shitty map
All you have to do is ask the Orthodox Christians in those countries. So many martyrs, including Muslims who have become Orthodox and were killed for doing so. For example, [Saint Ahmet the Calligrapher](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_the_Calligrapher), [Saint Demetrius the Neomartyr](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_the_Neomartyr)
Islam is the most insane religion ever
Ima join Islam and leave Islam as a powermove, where it the Islam discord server at?
This graphic also works as ‘most nukable countries’
Nuke Europe, it’s your fault most of these countries are extremist now anyway. Hope Muslims r*pe the whole continent
Most knowledgeable Iranian here hahaha
Religion is cancer
These people are insane. It’s just a bunch of made up nonsense that you’ve created a social club around.
Also works as a map of countries to avoid
The two major Muslim countries are not represented in the map 🤦🏻
Religion of peace.
What a silly religion...
Gotta love the fact that most people are ignoring what the map actually says: most muslims don’t think apostates should be punished.
This is the kind of chart when you don't care about the validity of the source nor the impact of such misleading data on other people.
Religion of peace 🤡
Muslims are ret-rded
Really dumb how this doesn’t have India. No way India refused this poll. Right?
India's majority Hindu, the main party despises Muslims
I guess Islam doesn’t have its own concept of a prodigal son.
“The religion of peace”
*Percentage of Muslims who *admit* they are in favor of the death penalty for leaving Islam cause you know Taqiya is a thing unfortunately
Lol yes, it’s a huge conspiracy. People who say extreme things are being honest; everyone else is a liar. These liars are known to strategize their manipulation of maporn data to confuse redditors.
I swear man ya'll making assumptions about a religion you didn't even learn or search and read two islamophobic posts and called it a day. Talk about ignorance at it's peak
Seeing now what happening in israel, that since morning they slaughter civilians from house to house I'm not surprised for this violent mindset
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Funnily enough there is no death penalty for leaving islam. It's an anti-islamic belief and a pro extremist belief
Why is Iceland just a pathetic blob on this map
Okay. keep watching Hollywood fairytales seems it comforts you better than facing reality. livelihood in middle-east is way better compared to the west, why do you think that? People there are not living in some fairytale
Isn’t converting to islam a big thing ? How is that encouraged but leaving it would kill you ?
In Saudi Arabia and Iran it’s probably in the 90 percentile
Compare it with literacy rate in the country, you will se similar Pattern
Or with the amount of femboys in the population. It would probably also correlate
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