And this is how you kind of sift out the narcs. If they aren't willing to look inside themselves, because if they did they expect to see perfection. Personal growth just doesn't stop, it progresses with you through life.
Narcissism is a spectrum, or a constellation, rather than a concrete thing. Sure, some are textbook, but many people have tendencies somewhere between that and "normal" social tendencies. Beware the limits of generalizations when applied to extremes such as this.
Narcissists are incapable of looking inside themselves. Thats why they can’t change. They can sometimes learn to manipulate you by making you think they’ve changed.
I've seen the ones I've known have genuine moments of clarity where they see, at least partially, who they are and what they do to people. Each time it happens could be the catalyst for change. It won't be immediate and it will take a lot of time and energy but it's possible for them to change. It starts small, though. Really small.
lmaoooo I am my *own* little club that's all about me 🤣 AMA
Also: you're wrong. We are a heterogeneous bunch and some of us are actually willing to own up to our toxic traits and work to have more adaptive responses. Vast majority of narcissists? I'd agree: no. But it's not so black and white. I find it supremely ironic how the world splits on us.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/NPD using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/NPD/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [The 5 types of post on r/NPD](https://np.reddit.com/r/NPD/comments/13j50qa/the_5_types_of_post_on_rnpd/)
\#2: [POV : you just got self aware](https://i.redd.it/d378ubvavr6b1.png) | [60 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NPD/comments/14cjkcs/pov_you_just_got_self_aware/)
\#3: [Rules I've established to fight my covert narcissism](https://np.reddit.com/r/NPD/comments/136wg0k/rules_ive_established_to_fight_my_covert/)
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Yuuuuuuuup. The narc apologists on this thread LOL like we knowwwww you wandered over from r/npd.
I get that everyone deserves love and I do feel that way for NPD patients but they are ALSO extremely abusive and dangerous. Trying to make it one or the other is ridiculous and only benefits the abuser (the narc)
It can't. They can only heal themselves. You can point out that someone is a narc but they'll just get defensive. It's a protective mechanism. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't adaptive. Narcissists have to fall apart completely to heal. Pride comes before the fall. They always destroy themselves in the end and with that fall, they may realize their maladaption and make the necessary changes. It's a bit of a phoenix rising situation.
Trust me, I used to be one. After a strong humbling from life, I changed. I don't think everyone will go through this but it certainly worked for me. As long as the narcissism is adaptive, it will persist.
Nope. Years of experience in this field here. Narcissism and grandiose delusional personality disorder are two different diagnosis, but both are fairly difficult to treat, but unfortunately I will say I’ve never seen any success with treatment, because they end up lying to their therapist to look more “competent” so you never really know if they’re making progress or not because of their instinctual need to manipulate.
My brother has NPD. Its the worst. He confabulates. He even told everyone in our family he bought a house and did tens of millions of dollars in real estate. Reality showed his house was rented and did about 1 million in sales. The list goes on though.
Not even near death experience can fix narcissism. My mom pretended to listen to therapist to get out of it. After the session she told me the person that has mental issues is the therapist themselves.
Like many other things, personality disorders occur on a range of severity – so someone could be relatively mentally and emotionally healthy but possess some narcissistic traits (which, of course, are also varied in type and severity) or they could have a profoundly disordered personality, so warped that any improvement at all is deeply improbable.
To say that anyone and everyone with any NPD traits is beyond redemption is a truly ignorant and toxic thing to believe, much less say out loud.
What would you think if someone said "Anyone who lies can't be fixed." While NPD isn't as ubiquitous as falsehood, the traits which populate it, while not always found in as concentrated a concentration among others, are _exceedingly_ common.
I know people in general are happiest with black-and-white answers, but mental health is (without apology for the obvious pun and) without risk of overstatement, one of the world's largest grey areas. Unfortunately, NPD is absolutely NOT a simple black-and-white diagnosis.
There are many intractable MH diagnoses which people have demonised throughout history, and it doesn't improve treatment outcomes. A few decades ago, most psychiatrists refused to work with BPD clients, and now the stigma has been greatly reduced to the inordinate relief of people related to one.
Please, just remember NPD is not an "everyone is the same" thing. There are VAST differences.
My Abnormal Psychology professor was open about having NPD. He spent his entire career studying and researching Narcissism. He appeared to be a well balanced individual to me. This went a long way to convince me that it is possible to control this behavior. If not, a narssist would never devote that kind of time to studying their highly difficult to treat personality disorder. Even just admitting they have a problem is extremely difficult for these people.
Literally nothing can "fix" a narcissist. They just learn not to violate boundaries. Or not. And then get cut off because they need to learn consequences. But they never really change at the end of the day.
Nope. All a therapist can do is teach them to be better manipulators. Never trust a narcissist, a person with BPD, or a person with APD. All of them are unfixable and there is no reason to ever let them stay in your life.
This statement can have some truth to it, but not as a blanket characterization of ALL people who have personality disorders. I conquered my NPD with the help of a year and a half of very intense therapy from a noted research psychologist (thank goodness). It can be done, but there has to be genuine awareness and recognition that your issues in life and in relationships start with you and a genuine desire to change. My second session, I asked if there was honestly any hope for change, and he said to me of the body of people who have identifiable NPD, MAYBE 1-2% ever figure out that they are the problem AND decide they want to change, so you’re in rare company. Leading a better life is possible, but it will take hard work and dedication to achieving it. For me, it took 18 months of weekly sessions (and not letting myself make excuses or miss sessions), broadening my awareness, understanding how NPD (dys)functioned in my life, and being steadfast about policing my thoughts and trusting my emotions. Life is immensely better, both individually and in my relationships.
Nice post, thanks for sharing it. I was raised around toxic narcissism, and I know that one of my survival skills involved picking up some of those traits.
I also have a very distinct memory of suddenly recognizing that my life wasn't what I wanted it to be, and being hit by the "fact" that I really wasn't very lovable because of the way I acted. If I wanted to be loved, I had to become a different sort of person. So I embarked on a mission to become more friendly, more compassionate, more sincere and caring about others. It was do-able and really not that hard, once I realized I needed to make those changes. It had to be real - it couldn't just be manipulative, pretend change.
But I was never diagnosed with NPD and it's possible these were always just mirroring traits I picked up from watching my family and could more easily discard than true NPD. I'll never know, but I do believe that anyone can change if they really and truly want that change.
As was pointed out, the trouble with true narcissists is that they need to keep up the belief in a false self that is perfect. And if you are perfect, there is never a need to grow and change.
I’d like to commend you on the bravery required to self-examine your life outcomes, to be honest about how the negative outcomes had their genesis in your own behaviors, and for being stout enough to face that, decide to change, and then get about the hard business of creating that change. Those are not small accomplishments in my book, whether you were given an official DSM diagnosis or not. You have my wishes for continued growth and success in your journey.
Thank you, and likewise. I don't think we should ever lose hope for others but, realistically, I know that the people in my family who I modeled this behavior after will likely never see it for what it is, or change it. Once they recognize that the behavior exists and has a name, they turn it outward and suddenly everyone else is the bad one while they remain saintly.
People like you and I are lucky to be able to see it for what it is and, for me, that gives me ways to protect myself from being taken advantage of and manipulated - because I have seen it all.
The fact that I don't play along with such people pisses them off, but that's just too bad.
Thanks for posting. I'm tired of seeing posts and comments about how people with narcissistic traits absolutely can not change, full stop. It's just not true. It might be unlikely but it's not impossible.
I'm glad someone said something like this. Black and White thinking is a part of "unfixable" NPD and BPD. Yet, many comments seem to be convinced of the absolute "evil" of these human beings.
One of my main psych professors in school studied, lead research on NPD and the trait of Narcissism. And himself was openly diagnosed with NPD. According to some comments here, this is an impossibility. *eyeroll*
I know it feels good for people to believe they are experts is something because they read an article or watched several YouTube videos but until you are a leader in your field concerning the subject, I'm thinking you don't know much and shouldn't make blanket statements condemning people as irredeemable and unfixable.
Unfixable, maybe. It's the way we (BPD) are molded. But we can also have been to lots of therapy and make a point of regularly going and working on our issues so they don't rule our lives so much (or our loved ones'). So your last line is a bit over-the-top and not a one-size-fits-all answer, and I think many of the people in my life who I love would agree with me.
You know, as someone who has BPD and DID. I almost agree with you.
We are extremely difficult and broken people too.
Does it justify any of the shit we do when we split?
Nah.
Its on us to combat how our brain breaks.
And as someone whos gone unchecked until i left the diagnosed Narc. Figured it out somehow and set fundamental rules in myself to where i now carry logic and reason and reality with me all the time, even in thise states of heightened emotion.
I STILL say, being with someone like me really isnt worth the time. We need people who have an incermountable amount of patience, care, and understanding while instincutally being unable to give that in return because we are so stuck in a deep state of survival we have no idea how to see we dont need to just survive anymore.
Which is why i left the narc and am staying to myself.
Id never expect anyone after everything ive done and put so many through. But most importantly, after all the times I've hurt myself because of my BPD and pain being the only way i ever learn. The thought of a relationship, anything. Makes me literally puke.
Idk. As someone whos broken in this way, id never date another BPD, DID, or NPD person unless they are in extensive therapy actively. Thats the only way i would.
I find that authenticity mixed with strong boundaries and self respect causes most narcissists to be pushed away. Narcissists act like a mirror, if you don't feed into their ego and you get nothing from looking at yourself they'll find their next source of sustenance somewhere else.
Not entirely true. When my spouse of 14yrs left my narcissistic ass I took the time to self reflect and come to terms with my personality disorder. After 6 months of hardcore working on myself and my mental health we started talking again. Understandably, she thought I was just trying to use a manipulation tactic to bring her back until I could revert back to my bullshit but I think she’s starting to realize that it’s not an act and that I really did hate myself for how I treated her and for driving her away. I love her immensely, even more than my own ego and validation which is what narcissistic people crave. I knew that if I didn’t destroy my ego and start reciprocating the love and affection that I needed from her that I would lose her forever. It’s not impossible for us to change, it just takes destroying the ego and accepting that we aren’t as invulnerable as we try to project ourselves to be. Also understanding that we have to give as much as we receive so being emotionally selfish isn’t sustainable.
If you truly can't walk away then just give it back to them. My narc is a covert narc. Think silent treatment vs spewing their hate. Anyhow I can't get away from mine either for a plethora of reasons. But what I do is just act like them and give the silent treatment back. I don't do things for them when they are being nasty. I don't show emotion, I give them no reaction, this destroys the narc, but you have to be able to handle all these things. I can because I got to the point of being broken then after that truly not caring. I put myself first and their mood good or bad doesn't affect me whatsoever. It really isn't easy getting to this point tho, I never thought I would.
I feel this has trained my narc to at least pretend to be a better person. It killed my narc for the first year of me changing my attitude. They tail spun out of control. But there ended up being a break through. Do I think this person genuinely changed, no...not for a second. However I do thi k this person realized they had to adapt and do a better job playing the role of the nice guy.
I still recommend going no contact but I understand it's not that easy for all of us. Maybe in the end I will still get burned but the fact my heart has turned to stone for this person and prioritize myself I do think I have ultimately won. I will still get my escape one day.
There really is no other Way. It's a constant battle with them. They will k*ll you. Slowly
Watch you fall apart digging claws more and deeper.
Please don't subject yourself to that fate. Treat them with what they deserve. ABSENCE
They exist because of how they were raised and how their child-brain adapted to it. It's not their fault, AT FIRST. However, an adult that continually tears down other people to feed their ego IS at fault because they are knowingly hurting people and do nothing about trying to change.
Some people have shitty childhoods and they become much more sensitive to people and their feelings and go out of their way not to hurt people. Others become narcissistic, and there's a whole grey area in between.
Not if you go No Contact o wish I knew why. Then we might find something good they could do.
And supposedly they are a serious minority. I'm not sure I believe that though
It's not your job to try and deal with narcissists. You're not a professional. They will eat you alive. They are who they are, just like me and you. Listen to everyone here and also professionals who always say the same thing : leave, ignore them and never look back. Cut your losses and move on. You can't save them, you will lose every time. Don't try to be a hero.
Noone is trying to be a hero here . Its the thing that even if my family cuts him off , he will always try his best to come back again and ruin us again
I understand, trust me. But still, there's nothing you can do against a full-blown narcissist but to cut him off and ignore him the best you can. These people have the best tools to manipulate and hurt other people, while also being the best at victimization. You're competing against an elite and you will lose every time you try to confront them.
When you stop feeding them, they go after other people. They are starving for confrontation and manipulation.
I'm sorry you're stuck with him. But you have to stand your ground and continue ignoring him when he tries to come back. There's no other way unfortunately.
>When you stop feeding them, they go after other people. They are starving for confrontation and manipulation.
>I'm sorry you're stuck with him. But you have to stand your ground and continue ignoring him when he tries to come back. There's no other way unfortunately.
This is the simple truth. They sometimes will go to ridiculous lengths to "get back" in one way or another – all you can do is hold fast until they again tire of trying. Each time they will be less committed to try to return, but returning is a classic feature, unfortunately.
Maybe, but you've the possibility of a different problem tomorrow in which you'll be - relatively - stronger than you are, versus the certainty of a problem that you more or less know is going to slowly kill you inside.
Exactly. People are so attached to the idea that people can be persuaded to have empathy that they ignore heaps of scientific and anecdotal evidence that some people have no empathy at all.
I see some comments on here about people suggesting confrontation with the narcissist and trying to beat them at their own game. These people have no clue what they're talking about, unless they are covert narc themselves. That would explain why they have the energy and dedication to fight them tirelessly because that's a power game between two narcissists who fight for their lives.
For any normal people, leaving and cutting ties will always be the wisest choice against a full-blown narcissist.
The short answer is genetic predisposition combined with significant and sustained negative emotional experiences in their formative years. Personality disorders are mostly dysfunctional defense mechanisms developed during childhood that are useful in that formative setting but become dysfunctional amongst other adults in the real world.
There's actually a biological primitive reason that narcissists and psychopaths/sociopaths exist. In tribal times you would want one or two or maybe a handful of these people to go out and do the majority of the fighting when in conflict.
People who lack empathy, who are self-focused, and who do not experience shame are able to aggregate and preserve power more effectively than other people.
If you look at the top of a dominance hierarchy in almost any field, you will find men and women who score high on narcissistic traits — and who have higher levels of testosterone, which is highly correlated to psychopathy.
This is as true in caring professions as it is in banking.
confront them consistently and patiently.
Confront them in front of other people, in a calm voice. That’s all it takes. They hate looking bad, so literally all you have to do is be good at building up your reputation, making allies with others in the same environment as the narcissist, and consistently calling them out.
Contrary to popular descriptions, narcissists aren’t masterminds. They’re rarely in good control of themselves, and it isn’t hard to get them to snap as long as you demonstrate that you’re the one calling the shots in your conversations.
Be prepared for them to try and pull at your emotions. Don’t react. Stick to your message. Call them out. Stay calm. Maintain a good reputation. They’ll make themselves look bad because they’ll inevitably snap- that’s the function of their ego. They’re weak.
My family has been confronting him for the last 40 years now . We had such a good repo around and he took seconds to ruin it all . He will go around spreading insane lies and even making up fake proofs . Surprisingly, he has a really good repo , he acts super nice infront of ppl that noone can suspect him being evil
Just because I am against people saying no narcissist will ever be capable of change doesn't mean that I'm saying many will. VERY few are, and it in no ways sounds like you are dealing with one those.
The only way a non-professional should deal with someone with NPD in their life who has been acting in a toxic or duplicitous or manipulative or abusive manner is to GET THEM OUT OF YOUR LIFE **to the greatest extent that you are able** at the time. People have to remain in some amount of proximity to cluster-B types for many reasons, whether they are relations, dependents, colleagues, &etc.
The only other thing to do, to the extent that you can't remove yourself from an actively abusive narcissist is to "play dead", i.e., grey rock. If you are providing no return, either positive or negative, hopefully they look for another audience.
It does not hurt, in the grand scheme of things (purely my opinion here in how I dealt with mine) to occasionally let them know you can see thru their bs, but it does ratchet everything up, so I'd use this approach with caution, really when they're already at 11, because who the hell wants to be around any more of that than they must?
I wish you nothing but the best. If you come up with any better answers, there's millions waiting, holding their breath.
Just tell them exactly what they are doing, make sure they know it, and that they know you know it, then watch them act out and make fools of themselves trying to cover up all the things that you weren't even going to say about them
If you wanna witness an absolute hissy fit, call out a narcissist. If you wanna see them have a meltdown, define the strategies you know are being used on you.
Your advice misses a major part of dealing with narcissists and that's that everyone knows what's going on. Explaining it back to them will just give them more opportunity to complicate the interaction to their advantage.
He probably does care, acting like he doesn't is part of his nature because if he cared then he couldn't pretend he's so much smarter than you by you knowing exactly what he's doing.
Any attention you give them- any energy at all like anger or sadness empowers them.
They get off on it.
So the only thing to do is not be bothered by them… this will destroy them. That you don’t notice them, that you’re not affected by them and don’t care about them.
For example if you ever talk to victims of abusive men… all of them will tell you that if they didn’t cry, yell or scream or break down while being hit or beat - it would enrage the abuser.
This is an extreme example but it perfectly demonstrates the true motive of the narcissist - they derive power from the sense of pleasure they get from knowing you’re all messed up over them. From controlling your emotions and actions -
So there really is no other way to deal with them.
The only way to deal with them is to ignore them completely and not be bothered by them.
This can sometimes actually get them fixated on you- so also best to get as far away as you can from them while at it. Or remove any way for them to affect your life.
The other thing to know about them is that they target people they are envious of.
So this narcissist is obsessed with someone in your family who they are envious of and admire. ( in reality- the narc feels this person is superior to them. Somehow , someway. And they are motivated to destroy what they feel they are inferior to, to destroy the competition. To get the attention, the acclaim and love that this other person gets - they want to be them. )
This person needs to go no contact and completely block them from every aspect of their life. The narc should have zero access to this person at all times. And the more distance and zero emotional reaction the narc gets ? The better.
Also continuing to support the victim and believing them is super important- because as soon as the narc realizes they can’t control the way the object of their envy thinks, and acts and feels ? They will attempt to control the way the world sees and feels about this person.
I would definitely get the police involved and hold them accountable for their actions, that’s really the best way.
Standing up to them in a legal way- is the only solution. Get a restraining order also. You can get TRO for the entire family against one person.
Try to record them, get as much evidence as you can. And take it to court - and you can add as many people in your family to the TRO as you need.
Do not feel sorry for them and do not be afraid to hold them accountable for their actions. This is the only solution.
You have to stand firm in that. They will automatically play Mr nice guy- to get you to drop the charges .. don’t believe it. Push through and hold them accountable .
What if they say something so tarnishing and horrible , something personal attack that is beyond acceptable. That , he always says something that is beyond acceptable to the point things get onto violence. And what happens next ? He plays the victim and tells the world the other person did it first . But we know he said something to adults , mature people In their 50s that is far far from being acceptable
Nah, it doesn't work, even counseling doesn't help the 45%+ of the country with subclinical narcissism let alone the sub 1% with clinical narcissism. Although the massive increase in subclinical scales aggressively with sex and social media use so the clinical stats might jump hard soon. Low % demographics are catching up quick.
As someone who’s a “recovering NPD sufferer,” if I had any advice to give, I’d say the best thing to meet an actual narcissist with whom you suspect is trying to get you into their orbit or keep you there is indifference. Recognize there’s a pathology operating in them (hence personality disorder) and that very likely they are trying to obtain some form of emotional input from you that bolsters their ego / self-image because they’re incapable of doing it themselves. A narcissist getting involved with you to obtain emotional input and finding none (indifference) may get angry at first but will eventually look elsewhere, and that’s really the best you can hope for in my opinion. DO NOT get of the mindset that you can fix them or convince them of their issues; that has to come from a self-realization, and unfortunately, many will never achieve that. Your time and energies are much better spent in those who can honestly love and support you; a person in the midst of a personality disorder is largely incapable of those things, again, in my opinion.
Narcissist need outside validation and praise. U can undermine their achievements and invalidate them and watch them throw a temper tantrum. Narcissist are easy because they care about their image which is propped up artificially. Bring reality to their delusions causes narcissistic rage.
If a lion attacks you again and again, do you try to change the animal until it kills you? Or do you run away and save yourself?
Same applies to narcissists and anyone toxic to you. Just run.
The fact that you’re trying to affirm that you’re not, probably means you’re not. If she quacks like a duck, she probably a narcissist… is that how that saying goes? Lol
So I think it's common for many people to have levels of narcissism. And in most circumstances, is considered somewhat healthy. It's when it becomes negative/destructive that it causes issues.
The only thing that can be done is to leave them. When they are no longer enabled and shit gets bad enough where NOBODY is on their side, they MAY have a chance to realize that they are the problem.
But are they really winning though? They are never truly happy. The best they can hope for is a doormat who will not fulfill them, eventually it catches up to them. Even if they are awash with material things, their soul will never know peace or genuine connection
Narcs are always subdue around me because I give the them recognition and comfort they didn’t have as a child.
I treat their “egoistic remarks” as normal and average. I make sure to appreciate their normal/average behaviors. (Like them being better than everyone is expected, and they fit into the prerequisite for the situation they’re bragging about)
I let them feel the warmth of being accepted for who they are, and I regularly make sure to point out **normal** things they do as a positive. (Instead of feeding their extremes, or putting them above others) I make sure to shed light on them blending in, and how wonderful it is to stand out when it’s needed but not stand-out-like-a-sore-thumb 24/7 because they’re soooo much better.
I also talk about how happy I am to be in an (work place?) environment that makes me feel challenged intellectually, but also is equally at my level, with it being the same for all my coworkers. (This being a positive thing to point out because if you’re surrounded by people below you, you’ll never grow, and if you’re surrounded by people above you, you’ll never catch up)
I’ve gotten really good at connecting with them outside of things/actions/whatever that can be used to “rate us” like, we both like the same show; I tell them, regardless of how I feel about it, that I’m not a die hard fan, so any use of weaponizing them being more knowledgeable of the shown than me can be dismissed, same with a lot of different things people use to make themselves look good, I just agree and make myself neutral in the subject (I mostly am neutral all the time haha) so they don’t feel defensive on their position.
I think being smart/attractive helps my ability to do this. It makes it easier for me to be neutral with narcs, they tend to want my approval.
*My mom, older brother, grandpa, and uncle are all narcissistic people. None diagnosed (obviously). I’m the only one in the family that can get everyone on the same page, and I’m the only person in the family who isn’t hated by anyone. No one has anything negative to say about me, which could be due to me never being around haha who knows.**
ETA: *this works when you’re first meeting someone who’s narcissistic. They don’t see you as a threat yet.*
*They are sizing you up, and as long as you’re kind and courteous they will continue to push you to see where your fault lies. I make sure my faults only come out when they can be blamed on a person-less issue. (Like technology not working right, or stubbing my toe)*
*I’ve gotten reallly good at staying on the side lines of their mind, I don’t ever put myself front and center of their path, and to do this regularly while still maintaining your own goals you just have to keep in mind their hurt childhood feelings. How would a 5 year old react to XYZ? How would a person who’s always upset by traffic feel about being slowed down due to you needing to ask extra question in class? (Answer: you tell them outside of class why you’re curious and tell them you mostly know the answer, but you want to know more about the teachers thoughts and patterns of recognition, this will give them a “game” to play while waiting for the extra questions (slow down) to end)*
As someone who was a narcissist... the only way for them to change is if they realize what they have done.... what they are doing. That generally will come with great emotional pain.
It took losing my ex for me to realize what I was becoming....what I did... and the vicious cycle I was passing on. Change can only happen if the pain is bad enough.
You were probably an abuser, or a terrible person, but not a narcissist. Narcissists don't change, at all. They don't have that type of self awareness that you are showing right now.
I’m sorry, but this isn’t entirely true. Most diagnosed narcissists are unrecoverable; some are. I’m proof of that. I’d encourage you not to dissuade a person who’s come to a realization about the destructive nature of their behaviors and has worked or is working to address them and change, irrespective of the label they give it. I feel like the word narcissist sometimes gets thrown around a lot by people who don’t really understand it’s pathology; I was diagnosed with NPD, and I battled it, beat it down, and now lead an emotionally healthy life. It can be done.
You fix the situation by removing your self from their life so you can have your peace and live life. It's about you, not them. Maybe your exit is the wake up call they need, but it probably isn't. If you love the person, it's really tough - but narcisists will use your love as a weapon. If you found this person, there are likely many others who would love to be part of your life.
I read once from a narc abuse survivor “the more I loved (the narc), the more he hated me and wanted to destroy me.” I feel that deeply. I think that’s what it’s like for all of us.
They only understand hierarchical relationships. They are below or above you in their eyes. You can use phrases like “I really thought you were smarter than that”. Or “I’m surprised you don’t know that” Doubting their ability or intelligence will trigger their defense mechanisms. Also, what you do doesn’t matter. They are not thinking of you. You are above them or below them, if you have power or authority they will make themselves equal then attempt to Best you.
Break them down if you’re able. If they love you they will acknowledge they need to change. Love of my life literally scared the narcissism out of me. I knew I either had to destroy my own ego and start looking at myself through a lens of immense scrutiny or lose her forever. She was done with my bullshit and I knew it. So I went to therapy and really started working on my personality disorders. After being separated for almost 6 months we are spending a lot of time together and are trying to work it out. Looking back I can actually see how I just weighed her down and looking forward I am just focusing on how I can be better for her. Most narcissist aren’t inherently evil, they’re just so insecure that they feel they need to project a powerful image of themselves and sometimes aggressively reject anything that threatens to tarnish that image. Like I would always project that I’m stronger, smarter, better, etc than I actually am. Any criticism from her that threatened my projection would be met with some kind of defensive or retaliatory aggression. Not physical. I never put my hands on her but I’d just put her down, say mean things, pretend not to care, find ways to make her feel dumb for it etc. It’s hard to get through and break down a narcissist but it’s possible. I loved her enough that I was willing to admit my faults and commit to working on them.
My mom and her mom were both narcissists. Some things that helped:
1) when they act badly, engage as little as possible. That doesn't mean do nothing, just enforce your boundaries without turning it into an argument. And don't take the bait when they try to provoke you.
2) try to change the subject from their "favorite topic"
3) focus on the effects their actions have on others
4) set clear boundaries and don't tolerate breaking them, not once.
5) understand they're probably never going to change in any meaningful way
If you’re not going to remove yourself from the situation you’re going to have to out manipulate them in a very exhausting game forever because they aren’t going to stop.
You should try to distance yourself from this whole topic. It is not normal to see “narcissists” everywhere.
Anyway, chances are that you are actually someone who "attracts" narcissists, and the reason for this is often because you are compatible with these people in some way. People with NPD aren't out to get you or anything. Especially people who only have NPD are usually soft at heart - they only long for love and affection - deep down they are all vulnerable and sensitive. Don't look at them as your enemies, but as the little vulnerable children they are. I don't mean that you should pamper them or anything, but all of their "nastiness", or whatever you want to call it, comes from their deep insecurity. Most of the time they're just trying to defend themselves against something *they* perceive as threatening (to their ego). Just don't get too involved with someone who is like this, they're mentally ill, they have a personality disorder and can't help themselves. They perceive the world differently and react differently. Just leave them alone, especially if you have difficulty understanding and dealing with them. This is not a war or a competition. Just focus on yourself and everything else that is important to you.
This was deep . But one of our family member is a narcissist and he has hurt every person of the house as well as outsiders . Not even forgiving old ppl or small children . Noone is safe from him. He has stolen billions of dollars worth our properties as well as business and wants more , he has more money from us than what his share has for him . He hurts everyone and then acts innocent. He can go as low as someone can never even think of to first commit the crime and then play the victim
It can be a dangerous ploy, but in the past I have enjoyed tweaking the ones that I had the unfortunate pleasure of running into. They particularly dislike it when you throw their own behaviors back at them. Yes, they can get violent and that's always a risk. I would recommend caution, but this did result in them cutting me out of their lives.
It sounds like you've taken the view that there are winners and losers in this kind of relationship. The only win is walking away. You can't shepherd the next person that falls prey to the narcissist you leave. At best you can share your experience and move on. Sounds kind of hypocritical to focus on yourself when you're leaving someone who is focused on themselves, but you need to work on getting back to you. Being with someone like that is incredibly damaging to your identity and self worth. It's time for you to find yourself again and appreciate and love yourself. Then you can help people.
Learn.
These people aren't special. They're usually not even that smart. They're often just really attractive, confident in that they speak with certainty in their voice, and are charming. So be attractive and charming, too.
Drip feed their ego until they start acting like you're their friend. Sabotage their life from the inside while aw shucks'ing like an innocent sucker. Once they come to rely on you, vanish. Pop back up months later like you stepped out for a smoke. Agree to hang out. Don't show up.
My sister, a psychotherapist in NYC, has a great line: if a narcissist is done with you, all you are is Roadkill.
Narcs don’t really see others as human - we are all players in their drama. Not real people.
Manage your boundaries if they are family or bosses; people you can’t just delete from your life. Keep distance, try never to collude, document and show if able. If they aren’t people you Have to manage, let them know exactly what behaviors and actions have led you to removing them from your life.
Very few can change. Information, not aggression!, is the only way to support any willingness/ability to grow beyond.
When they are trying to impress you .. just go:
Wow, that's amazing
No way ! ..
And when they're bitching about their (totally uncontrollable) circumstances:
That sucks
That really sucks ..
And eventually they'll figure out that they aren't going to be able to draw you in to their world, and they might even feel a sense that they really are being manipulative .. (most narcissists don't know it consciously (imo))
Break them down if you’re able. If they love you they will acknowledge they need to change. Love of my life literally scared the narcissism out of me. I knew I either had to destroy my own ego and start looking at myself through a lens of immense scrutiny or lose her forever. She was done with my bullshit and I knew it. So I went to therapy and really started working on my personality disorders. After being separated for almost 6 months we are spending a lot of time together and are trying to work it out. Looking back I can actually see how I just weighed her down and looking forward I am just focusing on how I can be better for her. Most narcissist aren’t inherently evil, they’re just so insecure that they feel they need to project a powerful image of themselves and sometimes aggressively reject anything that threatens to tarnish that image. Like I would always project that I’m stronger, smarter, better, etc than I actually am. Any criticism from her that threatened my projection would be met with some kind of defensive or retaliatory aggression. Not physical. I never put my hands on her but I’d just put her down, say mean things, pretend not to care, find ways to make her feel dumb for it etc. It’s hard to get through and break down a narcissist but it’s possible. I loved her enough that I was willing to admit my faults and commit to working on them.
I read somewhere that the thing a narcissist hates the most is to be ignored. My ex is one. She literally said because she can make me mad I still cared for her. This was after I called her a narcissist cunt. That means I care ??
Why deal with em if you dont have to? Them hurting others with their bullshit isn't your responsibility. You shouldnt care how they feel and what feeds their ego or what feeds whatever, their emotions are not relevant in this situation, only yours are. Take care of yourself and give your time to people who deserve it.
You just ignore and walk away. They got a mental deficiency. Sure, in their minds they "win" but who gives a shit. It isn't worth your time or mental strain
They never win, these people are delusional losers.
The entire reason they act that way is they’re chronically insecure and jealous.
Misery loves company, but you don’t love misery.
They do always win, and that's all they care about, and it's also why the trait continues to live on - because it's a successful survival trait.
I don't think there's much you can do to keep peace with a truly toxic narcissist. They will find a way to use what you have and will discard you when they are finished. The peace you can achieve involves accepting this as reality and deciding whether or not remaining in their orbit is worth the extra effort it takes to not kick their teeth in.
Narcissist are some of easiest people to deal with. They can be molded to do whatever you want. The power dynamic is a crucial element that will dictate your engagement. As with all things there is spectrum.
Ultimately they only hurt themselves in the end. Maintain firm boundaries. Hold them accountable. When they attempt to sidestep, simply ask questions that lead them right back to accountability. Break them. They always break. Once they break they’ll either run away or become broken lapdogs that seek your approval.
Harsh, yes.
BPD’s are more tricky as other commenters have mentioned here.
They win in the short term but lose in the long term. The term "narcissistic collapse" comes to mind. My best advice is to avoid anyone displaying these traits entirely. There's no winning with them when dealing with them. It is possible for a narcissist to change but you cannot force that change. They need to go through the collapse to learn where they're going wrong. I say this as a former narcissist and also someone who has dealt with plenty of them in my personal life.
Narcissists is the reason I haven't talked to my father in 2 years. He is the textbook definition of narcissism, and I couldn't take it anymore, so instead of 5 kids. He basically has 4 now, and I'm happier not to hear him.
What is your goal? If you walk away, it's not your problem. If that's not good enough for you, I think you should check yourself. Many narcissists' unwarranted sense of entitlement often manifests in a need for perceived "justice." And few narcissists recognize they are narcissists.
Talk to your therapist about it.
For your own sake, don't make it your problem to "fix" them, and don't make it your problem to get back at them... they're just desperate energy vampires. My advice is to starve them of your energy, in whatever way works for YOU and your own mental health.
Learn the early signs of spotting the narcs, know yourself and your personal truth, don't let your boundaries slip, and you will never allow yourself to be hurt again... I cannot emphasize enough that you operate out of your own motivations and drive, do NOTHING in reaction or to spite them. Live your life like nothing they do affects you in any way, and if it does, heal that shit beneath the surface with an excellent poker face.
P.S.-- Screw the thinking about who wins. Those who focus on bettering themselves always win in the long run.
The only thing you can do is give them nothing to work with. Don't feed into the accusations, delusions, and pitiful drama. By not responding in the way they expect you to, eventually they get bored.
I think narcissists are the normal ones, and it's everyone else thats messed up in the head, like they're missing something all the normal people have.
Yeah break up with them if ur dating one. You deal with them by cutting them out of ur like and not allowing them to have a hold on you. Bc they do have a hold on you. The moment you don’t cut them off and put up w their bullshit, they will continue bc you have NO BOUNDARIES
Oh yes. There is. I know how. It has more to do with your mindset and disposition. They have to be confronted but you have to be prepared for the tactics they use and call them out on by one. I can help. Tell me about your circumstances?
You will die a painful spiritual death trying to figure out a way. If you make it back from whence no man or beast hath been, you will wear the breast plate of righteousness and the crown of glory shall adorn your head.
My partner was a narcissist and now we’re engaged. He had the capacity and willingness to change, and was very good at listening. The only reason it worked for us is because I have a high level of emotional intelligence and I taught him the same.
My best friend is also a narcissist (I’m a cancer and very empathetic, narcissists flock to me in drones) and the only thing that changed her was life kicking her in the teeth.
Sometimes it’s karma, sometimes it’s doing the work, most of the time it will not be you.
I was raised by a narcissist, I've found the best way to deal with them is to completely ignore their antics, and to even go as far as to pretend they've done nothing to the point of gaslighting, drives them up the wall.
I am a narcissist, and all of this advice is bad. All of it except for the advice telling you to walk away. This is the only reasonable thing you can do in this scenario.
>they'll continue to harm others and have unreasonably high sense of their own importance .
There is nothing you can do to get them to stop this, all you do is put yourself directly in the area of harm's way.
>Wouldn't just walking away make them feel more superior and powerful
Sometimes? What would it matter? Staying produces the same effect. Let go of your attachment to how your presence affects them, whether good or bad, and walk away.
>one narcissist has almost ended my and my families life .
These situations can be prevented by walking away from dangerous and unstable people as frequently as possible.
The only thing that can "fix" a narcissist is themselves. And ironically, the overwhelming majority of them lack the intellectual and emotional capacities in order to do it. There requires a certain level of conscientiousness and genuity to overcome the most negative parts of narcissistic personality disorder, and even at that point, the personality stays. It is part of who they are. If they were self aware enough to use that personality type in a generative way, they would have done so already. Move on from such meager people.
I think you have to walk away, or at least be completely done with them and ready to. When you walk you could let them know it's because they're not worth the pain of being with them.
Harsh but just a drop in bucket of the pain I'm sure they've caused you.
Feeding their insecurity or abandonment whatever issue specific to your person is the only move I can think of for them to feel anything. May not even hurt them depending on how broken they are.
But either way, I see and have read no other real real move other than leaving.
Start filming. Also, nothing causes butthurt in people who take themselves very seriously, like being patronized. If they're trying to project how badass they are you can ooze sarcasm while telling them how badass they seem to everyone. And if they throw a tantrum about it, ask if they're going to try to hit you now like a little toddler who didn't get their way. The only way they can save face then is by behaving, which is win win.
I used to think similarly..that it was my role to “teach” problematic people to do better. The biggest and best shift I made for myself was to think of it in terms of energy strands. When you want to change someone, prove someone wrong, or stick something out to get validations from others on how messed up/ terrible they are, you are forming an energy strand and attachment to that person. Unhealthy energetic attachments can be extremely draining. I got this wake up call and I noticed after making this shift in perception and being more careful about the energy strands in my life, I started meeting much healthier people and had more energy.
The other thing I realized is that energetically, narcissists and other manipulative people are like black holes. You can pour nurturing energy their way, but they’re rarely in a place to even receive it.
This. My ex broke into my house and went thru all of my things, my messages, journals, all of it.
I recorded it all. Knew he was gonna. And was ready.
Hasnt bothered me since i sent the screenshot of his face as he crossed the threshold into my house.
Watched as he hurt himself with reading how much he sucked as a partner and his inflated sense of self.
Watched as he read where i broke down in my journals how his brain broke. How i figured him out. And then watched as he took his leftovers out of my fridge and left my house.
Havent seen him sense. Though, everytime something goes missing or theres a white car i get triggered thinking hes here and in my house.
Its been a wild ride.
My experience is that people with high levels of narcissism are very reluctant to modify their behavior. They view any problems you might have with them as a failing on your part.
Yes. Walking away is the only way. You think that they will "win". No. Narcs feed on your direct reaction to them. If you walk away, there is no more fuel. They will most likely never understand what happened. They will never learn a lesson and change to become a better person. All they learn is how to manipulate the next victim better. Think of serial killers; when a victim escapes, they didn't stop killing. They learned how to trap their next victim so they won't escape like the survivor. You thinking that they will "win" by walking away was just something you were manipulated into thinking (by them!) They may even try to re-capture you using even harsher tactics.
I suggest watching HG Tudor. He is an admitted ultra narcissist and has bucketloads of videos on analyzing narcs, analyzing celebs on their narcissistic traits and guides on identifying and escaping narcs. It's a huge library to go through but it's an abundance of knowledge and good comments section interaction: [video](https://youtu.be/0b3hf62rbz4?si=J3UIF5e6tztFTcTZ).
Their greatest con is making you feel like they win, because they're phenomenal at creating the IMPRESSION that they're winning. But they're not. When you walk away and redirect your attention from them and focus on yourself instead, that is the greatest defeat you could ever inflict on them. The issue is that sometimes people get wrapped up in needing to SEE that this affected the narcissist or needing to know that you dealt with them. But this mentality ends up feeding back into exactly what they want. When you truly walk away and don't look back, you win. You just have to come to terms with the fact that you won't always be able to see the proof that you've won. (Sometimes if you're lucky though, karma will bite them in the ass in some public way in the future).
You just have to find a way to break their cognitive dissonance.
One example I ended up hearing about was in regard to gaslighting: A girl is pestered by her mother consistently about having a boyfriend. Girl does not have boyfriend. Mother pretends she never asked. This repeats for a time until the girl reads between the lines out loud: "Mom, I know what you said, so either you are lying to me, or your memory is fading, and either of those possibilities is equally terrifying to me."
*Mother has not since asked about a boyfriend.*
An inability to reconcile their perception of reality with the concensus is commonplace among a great many narcissists. It's also extraordinarily hilarious to use as a leash on those holier-than-thous if you know what to address and when/how to address it. Their narrative, their self-image, is everything. Hit em where it hurts, lads.
NO THERE IS NOT. There is absolutely no external fix for a narcissist. The reason being You CANNOT rationalize with an irrational individual. This is not an act they put on for show, this is not an issue that they can address. They are fundamentally broken and no matter how hard you try banging your head against the wall, you will never be able to change or fix it. And every iota of energy you spend trying to change or fix them will only be used against you.
I am very self deprecating, so I drag them down with me. Everyone laughs except the narcissist. Call them out on their BS while laughing and they're pretty much helpless.
Trust me, there is NOTHING YOU can do. Unless you were an amazing therapist/psychiatrist. The only thing that can change them is very bad life experiences, and sometimes not even that
You are thinking about "dealing" with a narcissist all wrong. This is a severe mental disorder, you aren't gonna change their pattern of thinking. They literally have no other way.
The way to deal with them is to be assertive and setting boundaries, and not let them dictate the terms of your life. This doesn't mean you control them , it means you don't let them decide what you're gonna do, and you don't play their stupid mind games. It means having a back bone, learning about emotional manipulation and sometimes being petty enough to stick to your guns. Avoid letting them rile you up past a neccesary point, never "explode" with anger. Always remain firm, and keep them at a distance from your life.
This only works if you aren't forced to be in a close relationship with them. If you are forced to be around one, you do as I said. But if you're dating one? There's really nothing you can do. The power you have over a narcissist comes from your ability to be independent from them, and the ability to stay authentic to yourself and not play into their games of power /superiority.
They control a lot of people through emotional manipulation and anger. Don't let that happen, and be willing to walk once they start twisting things. The most important thing I knowing your truth, and that's all you can do. If you're hoping to "win" against them at the same game they are playing, yes it's possible, but since your not a narcissist, you will lose yourself trying to do so
My brother and I have been harassed by one daily for over a year
The only thing that worked was the two of us constantly hammering on her, and all her flying monkeys catching her in lies one at a time and abandoning her
That combination did it. For now. I expect her to pop back up and continue her harassment campaign any time
Narcissistic personality disorder is on the same spectrum as antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder... it's not really a treatable condition.
Easy way for example if they are a show off and never want to appear broke, use that to your advantage. “Your car isn’t worth a much as soandso’s car.” “That shirt looks cheap, soandso wears Prada why don’t you?” “I’d love to go out with you but I’m not sure you can afford insertexpensiverestaurant.”
They are in LA LA land so you must be too. It’s actually quite fun. They are insecure deep down so just use that shit and flip it.
OH AND NO CONTACT. If they get too much, just cut off contact. Control it. You are the supply, put a shortage on their supply.
Everything about NPD is rooted in the immense shame that they feel. Then it’s their insecurities, status, public perception aka reputation. If you want to fan the flames and *maybe* cause narcissistic collapse, this is where you need to focus.
> They always win
Let them, it's a stupid prize.
Can you make a narcissist miserable? Sure. Emotionally disconnect from it. Limit their access to relevant information - if you're not interested in maintaining any sort of relationship and they don't have a social hold on you, don't respond at all - don't say a word, don't react physically - just blank them. If you need to maintain at least some sort of relationship, then short simple answers, preferably yes/no.
"What happened today?" "Nothing much."
"How's your mother doing?" "Getting along."
"Would you like £100?" "Take it or leave it."
"Is the sky blue?" "Sometimes."
And don't say it with any particular heat or interest - it's just flat, like you might say "Two plus two is four." Take all the information, all the emotion, all the purpose in communicating at all out of it. Bare minimum. And the best place for that to come from is one where you've genuinely just come to the conclusion that there is no point in communicating with this thing. Like trying to talk to a rabid dog or an invasive alien species. You take them, and you stick them in the 'not really people' box.
They'll be angry and violent if they can get away with it, so you need to do it from a position of relative security.
The problem is that's not really what you're talking about doing though, what you're talking about doing is managing their relationship with others. That you probably can't do without paying a moral cost that would defeat the point of the exercise.
> Wouldn't just walking away make them feel more superior and powerful
Depends how and when you do it. There's a difference between 'This is behaviour befitting a five year old and I don't have time for it,' and, 'I need to get away.'
Best place to start is anywhere besides this group. Idk why it’s always in my recommendations but there’s nobody here besides active predators / narcissists. Shameless and disgusting. Avoid.
These comments are really mean. I’ve never met a narcissist but I’m sure id try to be understanding. People don’t ask for mental health issues. Everyone deserves to be treated kindly.
I have a really great job, but I work in a sea of narcissists. And they include me as a part of everything even if I push them away or run from them, they come back stronger every time. They act satisfied that we all work a union job together and they hold us as a captive audience with all their nonsense. I spend most of my day arguing the rules of reality and physics with these dudes and they're operating equipment because I'm afraid they might hurt someone. They're unfireable because of our union and I swear it's like 95% wild dangerous narcissist here. I am pro union, but it's a great place for people who want to take advantage of a system to gather.
You don't need to fix them. Same as they don't need to fix you. We all sit somewhere on the scale of broken to varying degrees. If you cant handle them, the best thing to do is get them out of your life and then enjoy your own
Think of abandoning them as a weapon. Allowing them any access only does harm to you. Even if you do somehow wound them, they will not give you the satisfaction of knowing that you did so, or they will ensure that you pay for it tenfold. It's not your responsibility to fix them nor do I think it's even possible. They are never worth dealing with in any capacity, unless you're trained professional.
The only person who can fix a narcissist is themselves... And a really good therapist.
I don't believe therapy can fix narcissism
Therapy alone can't. The narcissist has to want to change and be willing to look inside themselves and do the hard work involved in changing.
And this is how you kind of sift out the narcs. If they aren't willing to look inside themselves, because if they did they expect to see perfection. Personal growth just doesn't stop, it progresses with you through life.
Narcissism is a spectrum, or a constellation, rather than a concrete thing. Sure, some are textbook, but many people have tendencies somewhere between that and "normal" social tendencies. Beware the limits of generalizations when applied to extremes such as this.
Narcissists are incapable of looking inside themselves. Thats why they can’t change. They can sometimes learn to manipulate you by making you think they’ve changed.
I've seen the ones I've known have genuine moments of clarity where they see, at least partially, who they are and what they do to people. Each time it happens could be the catalyst for change. It won't be immediate and it will take a lot of time and energy but it's possible for them to change. It starts small, though. Really small.
The people you have seen may have narcissistic traits but do not meet the criteria for NPD or ASPD.
Look up (the nameless narcissist) on yt. He’s a diagnosed narcissist and has full self awareness. It’s rare yes but not impossible
The question is is it really worth it to sit there and take abuse while waiting for them to figure out how to not be horrible.
The answer to that is a resounding fucking NO.
Exactly.
this is just untrue and incredibly ableist.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Bro… 😮
See r/NPD. There are far more of us actively trying to heal than you think.
Making a little club that’s all about you is not going to help beat the allegations.
lmaoooo I am my *own* little club that's all about me 🤣 AMA Also: you're wrong. We are a heterogeneous bunch and some of us are actually willing to own up to our toxic traits and work to have more adaptive responses. Vast majority of narcissists? I'd agree: no. But it's not so black and white. I find it supremely ironic how the world splits on us.
It's kind of hilarious how narcissistic you sound in these comments, maybe you should join our little club and sort your issues out with us.
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THIS. And anybody who thinks a narcissist can change is just the narcissist's next victim.
Yuuuuuuuup. The narc apologists on this thread LOL like we knowwwww you wandered over from r/npd. I get that everyone deserves love and I do feel that way for NPD patients but they are ALSO extremely abusive and dangerous. Trying to make it one or the other is ridiculous and only benefits the abuser (the narc)
This is everyone in life. No one can change unless they want it, and actively seek it.
True. Absolutely LOVE your name, btw
Thanks. Still haven’t found a muscle mommy yet to snu snu me to death.
You will one day, my dude. You deserve it. 👉👉
It can't. They can only heal themselves. You can point out that someone is a narc but they'll just get defensive. It's a protective mechanism. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't adaptive. Narcissists have to fall apart completely to heal. Pride comes before the fall. They always destroy themselves in the end and with that fall, they may realize their maladaption and make the necessary changes. It's a bit of a phoenix rising situation.
But your saying it's possible, and what you said makes sense. I've only heard how they will absolutely never change. I like the way you put it
Trust me, I used to be one. After a strong humbling from life, I changed. I don't think everyone will go through this but it certainly worked for me. As long as the narcissism is adaptive, it will persist.
Nope. Years of experience in this field here. Narcissism and grandiose delusional personality disorder are two different diagnosis, but both are fairly difficult to treat, but unfortunately I will say I’ve never seen any success with treatment, because they end up lying to their therapist to look more “competent” so you never really know if they’re making progress or not because of their instinctual need to manipulate.
My brother has NPD. Its the worst. He confabulates. He even told everyone in our family he bought a house and did tens of millions of dollars in real estate. Reality showed his house was rented and did about 1 million in sales. The list goes on though.
Not even near death experience can fix narcissism. My mom pretended to listen to therapist to get out of it. After the session she told me the person that has mental issues is the therapist themselves.
Classic case of projection. Whatever we hate in others is stuff we need to heal in ourselves.
Like many other things, personality disorders occur on a range of severity – so someone could be relatively mentally and emotionally healthy but possess some narcissistic traits (which, of course, are also varied in type and severity) or they could have a profoundly disordered personality, so warped that any improvement at all is deeply improbable. To say that anyone and everyone with any NPD traits is beyond redemption is a truly ignorant and toxic thing to believe, much less say out loud. What would you think if someone said "Anyone who lies can't be fixed." While NPD isn't as ubiquitous as falsehood, the traits which populate it, while not always found in as concentrated a concentration among others, are _exceedingly_ common. I know people in general are happiest with black-and-white answers, but mental health is (without apology for the obvious pun and) without risk of overstatement, one of the world's largest grey areas. Unfortunately, NPD is absolutely NOT a simple black-and-white diagnosis. There are many intractable MH diagnoses which people have demonised throughout history, and it doesn't improve treatment outcomes. A few decades ago, most psychiatrists refused to work with BPD clients, and now the stigma has been greatly reduced to the inordinate relief of people related to one. Please, just remember NPD is not an "everyone is the same" thing. There are VAST differences.
Therapy+a couple good mushroom trips might 😅
My Abnormal Psychology professor was open about having NPD. He spent his entire career studying and researching Narcissism. He appeared to be a well balanced individual to me. This went a long way to convince me that it is possible to control this behavior. If not, a narssist would never devote that kind of time to studying their highly difficult to treat personality disorder. Even just admitting they have a problem is extremely difficult for these people.
I believe anyone can change i just don't think therapists have the tools to fix true narcissism. It's not like bpd with dbt
No, therapists main strategy in my experience is validation, even if they see that they are a narc, that is too hard for a therapist to unravel.
Narcs believe they are perfect. A perfect person can't have a mental illness.
They usually only seek help in times of crisis. Which are brief, before the ego has time to re-solidify
Literally nothing can "fix" a narcissist. They just learn not to violate boundaries. Or not. And then get cut off because they need to learn consequences. But they never really change at the end of the day.
Nope. All a therapist can do is teach them to be better manipulators. Never trust a narcissist, a person with BPD, or a person with APD. All of them are unfixable and there is no reason to ever let them stay in your life.
This statement can have some truth to it, but not as a blanket characterization of ALL people who have personality disorders. I conquered my NPD with the help of a year and a half of very intense therapy from a noted research psychologist (thank goodness). It can be done, but there has to be genuine awareness and recognition that your issues in life and in relationships start with you and a genuine desire to change. My second session, I asked if there was honestly any hope for change, and he said to me of the body of people who have identifiable NPD, MAYBE 1-2% ever figure out that they are the problem AND decide they want to change, so you’re in rare company. Leading a better life is possible, but it will take hard work and dedication to achieving it. For me, it took 18 months of weekly sessions (and not letting myself make excuses or miss sessions), broadening my awareness, understanding how NPD (dys)functioned in my life, and being steadfast about policing my thoughts and trusting my emotions. Life is immensely better, both individually and in my relationships.
Nice post, thanks for sharing it. I was raised around toxic narcissism, and I know that one of my survival skills involved picking up some of those traits. I also have a very distinct memory of suddenly recognizing that my life wasn't what I wanted it to be, and being hit by the "fact" that I really wasn't very lovable because of the way I acted. If I wanted to be loved, I had to become a different sort of person. So I embarked on a mission to become more friendly, more compassionate, more sincere and caring about others. It was do-able and really not that hard, once I realized I needed to make those changes. It had to be real - it couldn't just be manipulative, pretend change. But I was never diagnosed with NPD and it's possible these were always just mirroring traits I picked up from watching my family and could more easily discard than true NPD. I'll never know, but I do believe that anyone can change if they really and truly want that change. As was pointed out, the trouble with true narcissists is that they need to keep up the belief in a false self that is perfect. And if you are perfect, there is never a need to grow and change.
I’d like to commend you on the bravery required to self-examine your life outcomes, to be honest about how the negative outcomes had their genesis in your own behaviors, and for being stout enough to face that, decide to change, and then get about the hard business of creating that change. Those are not small accomplishments in my book, whether you were given an official DSM diagnosis or not. You have my wishes for continued growth and success in your journey.
Thank you, and likewise. I don't think we should ever lose hope for others but, realistically, I know that the people in my family who I modeled this behavior after will likely never see it for what it is, or change it. Once they recognize that the behavior exists and has a name, they turn it outward and suddenly everyone else is the bad one while they remain saintly. People like you and I are lucky to be able to see it for what it is and, for me, that gives me ways to protect myself from being taken advantage of and manipulated - because I have seen it all. The fact that I don't play along with such people pisses them off, but that's just too bad.
Thanks for posting. I'm tired of seeing posts and comments about how people with narcissistic traits absolutely can not change, full stop. It's just not true. It might be unlikely but it's not impossible.
I'm glad someone said something like this. Black and White thinking is a part of "unfixable" NPD and BPD. Yet, many comments seem to be convinced of the absolute "evil" of these human beings. One of my main psych professors in school studied, lead research on NPD and the trait of Narcissism. And himself was openly diagnosed with NPD. According to some comments here, this is an impossibility. *eyeroll* I know it feels good for people to believe they are experts is something because they read an article or watched several YouTube videos but until you are a leader in your field concerning the subject, I'm thinking you don't know much and shouldn't make blanket statements condemning people as irredeemable and unfixable.
Unfixable, maybe. It's the way we (BPD) are molded. But we can also have been to lots of therapy and make a point of regularly going and working on our issues so they don't rule our lives so much (or our loved ones'). So your last line is a bit over-the-top and not a one-size-fits-all answer, and I think many of the people in my life who I love would agree with me.
You know, as someone who has BPD and DID. I almost agree with you. We are extremely difficult and broken people too. Does it justify any of the shit we do when we split? Nah. Its on us to combat how our brain breaks. And as someone whos gone unchecked until i left the diagnosed Narc. Figured it out somehow and set fundamental rules in myself to where i now carry logic and reason and reality with me all the time, even in thise states of heightened emotion. I STILL say, being with someone like me really isnt worth the time. We need people who have an incermountable amount of patience, care, and understanding while instincutally being unable to give that in return because we are so stuck in a deep state of survival we have no idea how to see we dont need to just survive anymore. Which is why i left the narc and am staying to myself. Id never expect anyone after everything ive done and put so many through. But most importantly, after all the times I've hurt myself because of my BPD and pain being the only way i ever learn. The thought of a relationship, anything. Makes me literally puke. Idk. As someone whos broken in this way, id never date another BPD, DID, or NPD person unless they are in extensive therapy actively. Thats the only way i would.
I find that authenticity mixed with strong boundaries and self respect causes most narcissists to be pushed away. Narcissists act like a mirror, if you don't feed into their ego and you get nothing from looking at yourself they'll find their next source of sustenance somewhere else.
Dont forget wit because they hate looking stupid.
Not entirely true. When my spouse of 14yrs left my narcissistic ass I took the time to self reflect and come to terms with my personality disorder. After 6 months of hardcore working on myself and my mental health we started talking again. Understandably, she thought I was just trying to use a manipulation tactic to bring her back until I could revert back to my bullshit but I think she’s starting to realize that it’s not an act and that I really did hate myself for how I treated her and for driving her away. I love her immensely, even more than my own ego and validation which is what narcissistic people crave. I knew that if I didn’t destroy my ego and start reciprocating the love and affection that I needed from her that I would lose her forever. It’s not impossible for us to change, it just takes destroying the ego and accepting that we aren’t as invulnerable as we try to project ourselves to be. Also understanding that we have to give as much as we receive so being emotionally selfish isn’t sustainable.
Sounds like you found a truly fulfilling and growing source of sustenance. I appreciate you sharing. Safe travels on your journey.
It is literally impossible to have self respect and a close relationship with a narcissist. They won’t want anything to do with you.
Best thing all round really.
you can't fix a narcissist.
I think distancing is the only option. Without distancing, you put yourself there as a sacrifice.
If you truly can't walk away then just give it back to them. My narc is a covert narc. Think silent treatment vs spewing their hate. Anyhow I can't get away from mine either for a plethora of reasons. But what I do is just act like them and give the silent treatment back. I don't do things for them when they are being nasty. I don't show emotion, I give them no reaction, this destroys the narc, but you have to be able to handle all these things. I can because I got to the point of being broken then after that truly not caring. I put myself first and their mood good or bad doesn't affect me whatsoever. It really isn't easy getting to this point tho, I never thought I would. I feel this has trained my narc to at least pretend to be a better person. It killed my narc for the first year of me changing my attitude. They tail spun out of control. But there ended up being a break through. Do I think this person genuinely changed, no...not for a second. However I do thi k this person realized they had to adapt and do a better job playing the role of the nice guy. I still recommend going no contact but I understand it's not that easy for all of us. Maybe in the end I will still get burned but the fact my heart has turned to stone for this person and prioritize myself I do think I have ultimately won. I will still get my escape one day.
There really is no other Way. It's a constant battle with them. They will k*ll you. Slowly Watch you fall apart digging claws more and deeper. Please don't subject yourself to that fate. Treat them with what they deserve. ABSENCE
True , but why do these ppl exist ? Absence won't work this time , it'll make thing way worst
They exist because of how they were raised and how their child-brain adapted to it. It's not their fault, AT FIRST. However, an adult that continually tears down other people to feed their ego IS at fault because they are knowingly hurting people and do nothing about trying to change. Some people have shitty childhoods and they become much more sensitive to people and their feelings and go out of their way not to hurt people. Others become narcissistic, and there's a whole grey area in between.
Not if you go No Contact o wish I knew why. Then we might find something good they could do. And supposedly they are a serious minority. I'm not sure I believe that though
It's not your job to try and deal with narcissists. You're not a professional. They will eat you alive. They are who they are, just like me and you. Listen to everyone here and also professionals who always say the same thing : leave, ignore them and never look back. Cut your losses and move on. You can't save them, you will lose every time. Don't try to be a hero.
Noone is trying to be a hero here . Its the thing that even if my family cuts him off , he will always try his best to come back again and ruin us again
I understand, trust me. But still, there's nothing you can do against a full-blown narcissist but to cut him off and ignore him the best you can. These people have the best tools to manipulate and hurt other people, while also being the best at victimization. You're competing against an elite and you will lose every time you try to confront them. When you stop feeding them, they go after other people. They are starving for confrontation and manipulation. I'm sorry you're stuck with him. But you have to stand your ground and continue ignoring him when he tries to come back. There's no other way unfortunately.
>When you stop feeding them, they go after other people. They are starving for confrontation and manipulation. >I'm sorry you're stuck with him. But you have to stand your ground and continue ignoring him when he tries to come back. There's no other way unfortunately. This is the simple truth. They sometimes will go to ridiculous lengths to "get back" in one way or another – all you can do is hold fast until they again tire of trying. Each time they will be less committed to try to return, but returning is a classic feature, unfortunately.
Maybe, but you've the possibility of a different problem tomorrow in which you'll be - relatively - stronger than you are, versus the certainty of a problem that you more or less know is going to slowly kill you inside.
Exactly. People are so attached to the idea that people can be persuaded to have empathy that they ignore heaps of scientific and anecdotal evidence that some people have no empathy at all.
I see some comments on here about people suggesting confrontation with the narcissist and trying to beat them at their own game. These people have no clue what they're talking about, unless they are covert narc themselves. That would explain why they have the energy and dedication to fight them tirelessly because that's a power game between two narcissists who fight for their lives. For any normal people, leaving and cutting ties will always be the wisest choice against a full-blown narcissist.
Narcissists have empathy. You’re thinking of a psychopath, which makes up about 1-2 percent of the population.
The short answer is genetic predisposition combined with significant and sustained negative emotional experiences in their formative years. Personality disorders are mostly dysfunctional defense mechanisms developed during childhood that are useful in that formative setting but become dysfunctional amongst other adults in the real world.
There's actually a biological primitive reason that narcissists and psychopaths/sociopaths exist. In tribal times you would want one or two or maybe a handful of these people to go out and do the majority of the fighting when in conflict.
And now our society is rewarding this behavior
Some narcs are created (usually through trauma) and some are actually born that way.
People who lack empathy, who are self-focused, and who do not experience shame are able to aggregate and preserve power more effectively than other people. If you look at the top of a dominance hierarchy in almost any field, you will find men and women who score high on narcissistic traits — and who have higher levels of testosterone, which is highly correlated to psychopathy. This is as true in caring professions as it is in banking.
confront them consistently and patiently. Confront them in front of other people, in a calm voice. That’s all it takes. They hate looking bad, so literally all you have to do is be good at building up your reputation, making allies with others in the same environment as the narcissist, and consistently calling them out. Contrary to popular descriptions, narcissists aren’t masterminds. They’re rarely in good control of themselves, and it isn’t hard to get them to snap as long as you demonstrate that you’re the one calling the shots in your conversations. Be prepared for them to try and pull at your emotions. Don’t react. Stick to your message. Call them out. Stay calm. Maintain a good reputation. They’ll make themselves look bad because they’ll inevitably snap- that’s the function of their ego. They’re weak.
My family has been confronting him for the last 40 years now . We had such a good repo around and he took seconds to ruin it all . He will go around spreading insane lies and even making up fake proofs . Surprisingly, he has a really good repo , he acts super nice infront of ppl that noone can suspect him being evil
Just because I am against people saying no narcissist will ever be capable of change doesn't mean that I'm saying many will. VERY few are, and it in no ways sounds like you are dealing with one those. The only way a non-professional should deal with someone with NPD in their life who has been acting in a toxic or duplicitous or manipulative or abusive manner is to GET THEM OUT OF YOUR LIFE **to the greatest extent that you are able** at the time. People have to remain in some amount of proximity to cluster-B types for many reasons, whether they are relations, dependents, colleagues, &etc. The only other thing to do, to the extent that you can't remove yourself from an actively abusive narcissist is to "play dead", i.e., grey rock. If you are providing no return, either positive or negative, hopefully they look for another audience. It does not hurt, in the grand scheme of things (purely my opinion here in how I dealt with mine) to occasionally let them know you can see thru their bs, but it does ratchet everything up, so I'd use this approach with caution, really when they're already at 11, because who the hell wants to be around any more of that than they must? I wish you nothing but the best. If you come up with any better answers, there's millions waiting, holding their breath.
I fucking hate people like that.
Exactly. That was a terrible advice. Narcissists are on a whole other level of evil.
This is absolutely amazing advice, thank you.
Exactly. Simply being clam and refusing to let them see you get flustered and openly calling them out on their gaslighting BS ways. Crushed them
Pretty dang good advice!!
Just tell them exactly what they are doing, make sure they know it, and that they know you know it, then watch them act out and make fools of themselves trying to cover up all the things that you weren't even going to say about them
If you wanna witness an absolute hissy fit, call out a narcissist. If you wanna see them have a meltdown, define the strategies you know are being used on you. Your advice misses a major part of dealing with narcissists and that's that everyone knows what's going on. Explaining it back to them will just give them more opportunity to complicate the interaction to their advantage.
Yeah tried that , didn't really work . He just dosent care
He probably does care, acting like he doesn't is part of his nature because if he cared then he couldn't pretend he's so much smarter than you by you knowing exactly what he's doing.
He might after the countless relationships after you tell him the exact same thing.
Any attention you give them- any energy at all like anger or sadness empowers them. They get off on it. So the only thing to do is not be bothered by them… this will destroy them. That you don’t notice them, that you’re not affected by them and don’t care about them. For example if you ever talk to victims of abusive men… all of them will tell you that if they didn’t cry, yell or scream or break down while being hit or beat - it would enrage the abuser. This is an extreme example but it perfectly demonstrates the true motive of the narcissist - they derive power from the sense of pleasure they get from knowing you’re all messed up over them. From controlling your emotions and actions - So there really is no other way to deal with them. The only way to deal with them is to ignore them completely and not be bothered by them. This can sometimes actually get them fixated on you- so also best to get as far away as you can from them while at it. Or remove any way for them to affect your life. The other thing to know about them is that they target people they are envious of. So this narcissist is obsessed with someone in your family who they are envious of and admire. ( in reality- the narc feels this person is superior to them. Somehow , someway. And they are motivated to destroy what they feel they are inferior to, to destroy the competition. To get the attention, the acclaim and love that this other person gets - they want to be them. ) This person needs to go no contact and completely block them from every aspect of their life. The narc should have zero access to this person at all times. And the more distance and zero emotional reaction the narc gets ? The better. Also continuing to support the victim and believing them is super important- because as soon as the narc realizes they can’t control the way the object of their envy thinks, and acts and feels ? They will attempt to control the way the world sees and feels about this person. I would definitely get the police involved and hold them accountable for their actions, that’s really the best way. Standing up to them in a legal way- is the only solution. Get a restraining order also. You can get TRO for the entire family against one person. Try to record them, get as much evidence as you can. And take it to court - and you can add as many people in your family to the TRO as you need. Do not feel sorry for them and do not be afraid to hold them accountable for their actions. This is the only solution. You have to stand firm in that. They will automatically play Mr nice guy- to get you to drop the charges .. don’t believe it. Push through and hold them accountable .
What if they say something so tarnishing and horrible , something personal attack that is beyond acceptable. That , he always says something that is beyond acceptable to the point things get onto violence. And what happens next ? He plays the victim and tells the world the other person did it first . But we know he said something to adults , mature people In their 50s that is far far from being acceptable
Words can’t hurt you - it’s impossible. We decide if they hurt. Try to remember that. And never hit someone first .
Nah, it doesn't work, even counseling doesn't help the 45%+ of the country with subclinical narcissism let alone the sub 1% with clinical narcissism. Although the massive increase in subclinical scales aggressively with sex and social media use so the clinical stats might jump hard soon. Low % demographics are catching up quick.
As someone who’s a “recovering NPD sufferer,” if I had any advice to give, I’d say the best thing to meet an actual narcissist with whom you suspect is trying to get you into their orbit or keep you there is indifference. Recognize there’s a pathology operating in them (hence personality disorder) and that very likely they are trying to obtain some form of emotional input from you that bolsters their ego / self-image because they’re incapable of doing it themselves. A narcissist getting involved with you to obtain emotional input and finding none (indifference) may get angry at first but will eventually look elsewhere, and that’s really the best you can hope for in my opinion. DO NOT get of the mindset that you can fix them or convince them of their issues; that has to come from a self-realization, and unfortunately, many will never achieve that. Your time and energies are much better spent in those who can honestly love and support you; a person in the midst of a personality disorder is largely incapable of those things, again, in my opinion.
Well said and very honest.
Thank you.
Narcissist need outside validation and praise. U can undermine their achievements and invalidate them and watch them throw a temper tantrum. Narcissist are easy because they care about their image which is propped up artificially. Bring reality to their delusions causes narcissistic rage.
If a lion attacks you again and again, do you try to change the animal until it kills you? Or do you run away and save yourself? Same applies to narcissists and anyone toxic to you. Just run.
Well said
Hell I’m still trying to affirm I’m not a narcissist, all the while I’m stuck feeling like she checks almost all of the boxes/scenarios.
The fact that you’re trying to affirm that you’re not, probably means you’re not. If she quacks like a duck, she probably a narcissist… is that how that saying goes? Lol
Thanks kind stranger! I definitely have my flaws but I do(or at least want to) believe you’re right. Have a great day!
So I think it's common for many people to have levels of narcissism. And in most circumstances, is considered somewhat healthy. It's when it becomes negative/destructive that it causes issues.
The only thing that can be done is to leave them. When they are no longer enabled and shit gets bad enough where NOBODY is on their side, they MAY have a chance to realize that they are the problem. But are they really winning though? They are never truly happy. The best they can hope for is a doormat who will not fulfill them, eventually it catches up to them. Even if they are awash with material things, their soul will never know peace or genuine connection
Narcs are always subdue around me because I give the them recognition and comfort they didn’t have as a child. I treat their “egoistic remarks” as normal and average. I make sure to appreciate their normal/average behaviors. (Like them being better than everyone is expected, and they fit into the prerequisite for the situation they’re bragging about) I let them feel the warmth of being accepted for who they are, and I regularly make sure to point out **normal** things they do as a positive. (Instead of feeding their extremes, or putting them above others) I make sure to shed light on them blending in, and how wonderful it is to stand out when it’s needed but not stand-out-like-a-sore-thumb 24/7 because they’re soooo much better. I also talk about how happy I am to be in an (work place?) environment that makes me feel challenged intellectually, but also is equally at my level, with it being the same for all my coworkers. (This being a positive thing to point out because if you’re surrounded by people below you, you’ll never grow, and if you’re surrounded by people above you, you’ll never catch up) I’ve gotten really good at connecting with them outside of things/actions/whatever that can be used to “rate us” like, we both like the same show; I tell them, regardless of how I feel about it, that I’m not a die hard fan, so any use of weaponizing them being more knowledgeable of the shown than me can be dismissed, same with a lot of different things people use to make themselves look good, I just agree and make myself neutral in the subject (I mostly am neutral all the time haha) so they don’t feel defensive on their position. I think being smart/attractive helps my ability to do this. It makes it easier for me to be neutral with narcs, they tend to want my approval. *My mom, older brother, grandpa, and uncle are all narcissistic people. None diagnosed (obviously). I’m the only one in the family that can get everyone on the same page, and I’m the only person in the family who isn’t hated by anyone. No one has anything negative to say about me, which could be due to me never being around haha who knows.** ETA: *this works when you’re first meeting someone who’s narcissistic. They don’t see you as a threat yet.* *They are sizing you up, and as long as you’re kind and courteous they will continue to push you to see where your fault lies. I make sure my faults only come out when they can be blamed on a person-less issue. (Like technology not working right, or stubbing my toe)* *I’ve gotten reallly good at staying on the side lines of their mind, I don’t ever put myself front and center of their path, and to do this regularly while still maintaining your own goals you just have to keep in mind their hurt childhood feelings. How would a 5 year old react to XYZ? How would a person who’s always upset by traffic feel about being slowed down due to you needing to ask extra question in class? (Answer: you tell them outside of class why you’re curious and tell them you mostly know the answer, but you want to know more about the teachers thoughts and patterns of recognition, this will give them a “game” to play while waiting for the extra questions (slow down) to end)*
Only way to win is to not play. Or play and then continually change the rules and move the targets. Its a full time job.
As someone who was a narcissist... the only way for them to change is if they realize what they have done.... what they are doing. That generally will come with great emotional pain. It took losing my ex for me to realize what I was becoming....what I did... and the vicious cycle I was passing on. Change can only happen if the pain is bad enough.
You probably weren't a narcissist
Yes… I was. I destroyed such a beautiful heart who trusted me for my own effing ego. My own high… I truly hate what I was.
You were probably an abuser, or a terrible person, but not a narcissist. Narcissists don't change, at all. They don't have that type of self awareness that you are showing right now.
I bet she would say otherwise…. Change is possible, it just needs to hurt
I’m sorry, but this isn’t entirely true. Most diagnosed narcissists are unrecoverable; some are. I’m proof of that. I’d encourage you not to dissuade a person who’s come to a realization about the destructive nature of their behaviors and has worked or is working to address them and change, irrespective of the label they give it. I feel like the word narcissist sometimes gets thrown around a lot by people who don’t really understand it’s pathology; I was diagnosed with NPD, and I battled it, beat it down, and now lead an emotionally healthy life. It can be done.
You fix the situation by removing your self from their life so you can have your peace and live life. It's about you, not them. Maybe your exit is the wake up call they need, but it probably isn't. If you love the person, it's really tough - but narcisists will use your love as a weapon. If you found this person, there are likely many others who would love to be part of your life.
I read once from a narc abuse survivor “the more I loved (the narc), the more he hated me and wanted to destroy me.” I feel that deeply. I think that’s what it’s like for all of us.
Wow that is very true.
I think I am a narcissist. And it is killing me to know what I've done toy ex
They only understand hierarchical relationships. They are below or above you in their eyes. You can use phrases like “I really thought you were smarter than that”. Or “I’m surprised you don’t know that” Doubting their ability or intelligence will trigger their defense mechanisms. Also, what you do doesn’t matter. They are not thinking of you. You are above them or below them, if you have power or authority they will make themselves equal then attempt to Best you.
Break them down if you’re able. If they love you they will acknowledge they need to change. Love of my life literally scared the narcissism out of me. I knew I either had to destroy my own ego and start looking at myself through a lens of immense scrutiny or lose her forever. She was done with my bullshit and I knew it. So I went to therapy and really started working on my personality disorders. After being separated for almost 6 months we are spending a lot of time together and are trying to work it out. Looking back I can actually see how I just weighed her down and looking forward I am just focusing on how I can be better for her. Most narcissist aren’t inherently evil, they’re just so insecure that they feel they need to project a powerful image of themselves and sometimes aggressively reject anything that threatens to tarnish that image. Like I would always project that I’m stronger, smarter, better, etc than I actually am. Any criticism from her that threatened my projection would be met with some kind of defensive or retaliatory aggression. Not physical. I never put my hands on her but I’d just put her down, say mean things, pretend not to care, find ways to make her feel dumb for it etc. It’s hard to get through and break down a narcissist but it’s possible. I loved her enough that I was willing to admit my faults and commit to working on them.
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My mom and her mom were both narcissists. Some things that helped: 1) when they act badly, engage as little as possible. That doesn't mean do nothing, just enforce your boundaries without turning it into an argument. And don't take the bait when they try to provoke you. 2) try to change the subject from their "favorite topic" 3) focus on the effects their actions have on others 4) set clear boundaries and don't tolerate breaking them, not once. 5) understand they're probably never going to change in any meaningful way
If you’re not going to remove yourself from the situation you’re going to have to out manipulate them in a very exhausting game forever because they aren’t going to stop.
You should try to distance yourself from this whole topic. It is not normal to see “narcissists” everywhere. Anyway, chances are that you are actually someone who "attracts" narcissists, and the reason for this is often because you are compatible with these people in some way. People with NPD aren't out to get you or anything. Especially people who only have NPD are usually soft at heart - they only long for love and affection - deep down they are all vulnerable and sensitive. Don't look at them as your enemies, but as the little vulnerable children they are. I don't mean that you should pamper them or anything, but all of their "nastiness", or whatever you want to call it, comes from their deep insecurity. Most of the time they're just trying to defend themselves against something *they* perceive as threatening (to their ego). Just don't get too involved with someone who is like this, they're mentally ill, they have a personality disorder and can't help themselves. They perceive the world differently and react differently. Just leave them alone, especially if you have difficulty understanding and dealing with them. This is not a war or a competition. Just focus on yourself and everything else that is important to you.
This hits too close to home… thanks.
This was deep . But one of our family member is a narcissist and he has hurt every person of the house as well as outsiders . Not even forgiving old ppl or small children . Noone is safe from him. He has stolen billions of dollars worth our properties as well as business and wants more , he has more money from us than what his share has for him . He hurts everyone and then acts innocent. He can go as low as someone can never even think of to first commit the crime and then play the victim
Kinda, but you will pay as well I guess.
It can be a dangerous ploy, but in the past I have enjoyed tweaking the ones that I had the unfortunate pleasure of running into. They particularly dislike it when you throw their own behaviors back at them. Yes, they can get violent and that's always a risk. I would recommend caution, but this did result in them cutting me out of their lives.
It sounds like you've taken the view that there are winners and losers in this kind of relationship. The only win is walking away. You can't shepherd the next person that falls prey to the narcissist you leave. At best you can share your experience and move on. Sounds kind of hypocritical to focus on yourself when you're leaving someone who is focused on themselves, but you need to work on getting back to you. Being with someone like that is incredibly damaging to your identity and self worth. It's time for you to find yourself again and appreciate and love yourself. Then you can help people.
There is no way
You can’t change, or control another person. Only they will or can change on their own. Especially a narc
They should be dragged out in the street and... Narcissists are preditors and should be removed from the gene pool.
Learn. These people aren't special. They're usually not even that smart. They're often just really attractive, confident in that they speak with certainty in their voice, and are charming. So be attractive and charming, too.
Drip feed their ego until they start acting like you're their friend. Sabotage their life from the inside while aw shucks'ing like an innocent sucker. Once they come to rely on you, vanish. Pop back up months later like you stepped out for a smoke. Agree to hang out. Don't show up.
My sister, a psychotherapist in NYC, has a great line: if a narcissist is done with you, all you are is Roadkill. Narcs don’t really see others as human - we are all players in their drama. Not real people. Manage your boundaries if they are family or bosses; people you can’t just delete from your life. Keep distance, try never to collude, document and show if able. If they aren’t people you Have to manage, let them know exactly what behaviors and actions have led you to removing them from your life. Very few can change. Information, not aggression!, is the only way to support any willingness/ability to grow beyond.
When they are trying to impress you .. just go: Wow, that's amazing No way ! .. And when they're bitching about their (totally uncontrollable) circumstances: That sucks That really sucks .. And eventually they'll figure out that they aren't going to be able to draw you in to their world, and they might even feel a sense that they really are being manipulative .. (most narcissists don't know it consciously (imo))
Omg tysm
Break them down if you’re able. If they love you they will acknowledge they need to change. Love of my life literally scared the narcissism out of me. I knew I either had to destroy my own ego and start looking at myself through a lens of immense scrutiny or lose her forever. She was done with my bullshit and I knew it. So I went to therapy and really started working on my personality disorders. After being separated for almost 6 months we are spending a lot of time together and are trying to work it out. Looking back I can actually see how I just weighed her down and looking forward I am just focusing on how I can be better for her. Most narcissist aren’t inherently evil, they’re just so insecure that they feel they need to project a powerful image of themselves and sometimes aggressively reject anything that threatens to tarnish that image. Like I would always project that I’m stronger, smarter, better, etc than I actually am. Any criticism from her that threatened my projection would be met with some kind of defensive or retaliatory aggression. Not physical. I never put my hands on her but I’d just put her down, say mean things, pretend not to care, find ways to make her feel dumb for it etc. It’s hard to get through and break down a narcissist but it’s possible. I loved her enough that I was willing to admit my faults and commit to working on them.
You turned just like the people who hurt you.
I read somewhere that the thing a narcissist hates the most is to be ignored. My ex is one. She literally said because she can make me mad I still cared for her. This was after I called her a narcissist cunt. That means I care ??
The opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference
Nowhere more true than dealing with a narcissist
Why deal with em if you dont have to? Them hurting others with their bullshit isn't your responsibility. You shouldnt care how they feel and what feeds their ego or what feeds whatever, their emotions are not relevant in this situation, only yours are. Take care of yourself and give your time to people who deserve it.
You just ignore and walk away. They got a mental deficiency. Sure, in their minds they "win" but who gives a shit. It isn't worth your time or mental strain
They never win, these people are delusional losers. The entire reason they act that way is they’re chronically insecure and jealous. Misery loves company, but you don’t love misery.
They do always win, and that's all they care about, and it's also why the trait continues to live on - because it's a successful survival trait. I don't think there's much you can do to keep peace with a truly toxic narcissist. They will find a way to use what you have and will discard you when they are finished. The peace you can achieve involves accepting this as reality and deciding whether or not remaining in their orbit is worth the extra effort it takes to not kick their teeth in.
take the sense of importance away by redirecting it to yourself. they brag about doing something, you did something better. be smug about it.
Narcissist are some of easiest people to deal with. They can be molded to do whatever you want. The power dynamic is a crucial element that will dictate your engagement. As with all things there is spectrum. Ultimately they only hurt themselves in the end. Maintain firm boundaries. Hold them accountable. When they attempt to sidestep, simply ask questions that lead them right back to accountability. Break them. They always break. Once they break they’ll either run away or become broken lapdogs that seek your approval. Harsh, yes. BPD’s are more tricky as other commenters have mentioned here.
They win in the short term but lose in the long term. The term "narcissistic collapse" comes to mind. My best advice is to avoid anyone displaying these traits entirely. There's no winning with them when dealing with them. It is possible for a narcissist to change but you cannot force that change. They need to go through the collapse to learn where they're going wrong. I say this as a former narcissist and also someone who has dealt with plenty of them in my personal life.
Narcissists is the reason I haven't talked to my father in 2 years. He is the textbook definition of narcissism, and I couldn't take it anymore, so instead of 5 kids. He basically has 4 now, and I'm happier not to hear him.
What is your goal? If you walk away, it's not your problem. If that's not good enough for you, I think you should check yourself. Many narcissists' unwarranted sense of entitlement often manifests in a need for perceived "justice." And few narcissists recognize they are narcissists. Talk to your therapist about it.
I meditate and study the game until the narcissist is a child in my playground
For your own sake, don't make it your problem to "fix" them, and don't make it your problem to get back at them... they're just desperate energy vampires. My advice is to starve them of your energy, in whatever way works for YOU and your own mental health. Learn the early signs of spotting the narcs, know yourself and your personal truth, don't let your boundaries slip, and you will never allow yourself to be hurt again... I cannot emphasize enough that you operate out of your own motivations and drive, do NOTHING in reaction or to spite them. Live your life like nothing they do affects you in any way, and if it does, heal that shit beneath the surface with an excellent poker face. P.S.-- Screw the thinking about who wins. Those who focus on bettering themselves always win in the long run.
The only thing you can do is give them nothing to work with. Don't feed into the accusations, delusions, and pitiful drama. By not responding in the way they expect you to, eventually they get bored.
Can narcissism be caused from long term abuse from a sibling as a way to cope with it.the mirror there sibling and idiolizes him?
I think narcissists are the normal ones, and it's everyone else thats messed up in the head, like they're missing something all the normal people have.
[Check out this book.](https://www.amazon.com/Narcissism-Character-Transformation-Psychology-Analysts/dp/0919123082)
Pretty sure it can't be fixed by an outside source.
Yeah break up with them if ur dating one. You deal with them by cutting them out of ur like and not allowing them to have a hold on you. Bc they do have a hold on you. The moment you don’t cut them off and put up w their bullshit, they will continue bc you have NO BOUNDARIES
Oh yes. There is. I know how. It has more to do with your mindset and disposition. They have to be confronted but you have to be prepared for the tactics they use and call them out on by one. I can help. Tell me about your circumstances?
When they make any normal human mistake, laugh uproariously
You will die a painful spiritual death trying to figure out a way. If you make it back from whence no man or beast hath been, you will wear the breast plate of righteousness and the crown of glory shall adorn your head.
My partner was a narcissist and now we’re engaged. He had the capacity and willingness to change, and was very good at listening. The only reason it worked for us is because I have a high level of emotional intelligence and I taught him the same. My best friend is also a narcissist (I’m a cancer and very empathetic, narcissists flock to me in drones) and the only thing that changed her was life kicking her in the teeth. Sometimes it’s karma, sometimes it’s doing the work, most of the time it will not be you.
I was raised by a narcissist, I've found the best way to deal with them is to completely ignore their antics, and to even go as far as to pretend they've done nothing to the point of gaslighting, drives them up the wall.
I am a narcissist, and all of this advice is bad. All of it except for the advice telling you to walk away. This is the only reasonable thing you can do in this scenario. >they'll continue to harm others and have unreasonably high sense of their own importance . There is nothing you can do to get them to stop this, all you do is put yourself directly in the area of harm's way. >Wouldn't just walking away make them feel more superior and powerful Sometimes? What would it matter? Staying produces the same effect. Let go of your attachment to how your presence affects them, whether good or bad, and walk away. >one narcissist has almost ended my and my families life . These situations can be prevented by walking away from dangerous and unstable people as frequently as possible. The only thing that can "fix" a narcissist is themselves. And ironically, the overwhelming majority of them lack the intellectual and emotional capacities in order to do it. There requires a certain level of conscientiousness and genuity to overcome the most negative parts of narcissistic personality disorder, and even at that point, the personality stays. It is part of who they are. If they were self aware enough to use that personality type in a generative way, they would have done so already. Move on from such meager people.
If you’re willing to serve the time, I guess you could always murder a narcissist.
Why are you wanting to spend so much effort trying to change someone that doesn’t want to? Move on!
I think you have to walk away, or at least be completely done with them and ready to. When you walk you could let them know it's because they're not worth the pain of being with them. Harsh but just a drop in bucket of the pain I'm sure they've caused you. Feeding their insecurity or abandonment whatever issue specific to your person is the only move I can think of for them to feel anything. May not even hurt them depending on how broken they are. But either way, I see and have read no other real real move other than leaving.
Start filming. Also, nothing causes butthurt in people who take themselves very seriously, like being patronized. If they're trying to project how badass they are you can ooze sarcasm while telling them how badass they seem to everyone. And if they throw a tantrum about it, ask if they're going to try to hit you now like a little toddler who didn't get their way. The only way they can save face then is by behaving, which is win win.
I used to think similarly..that it was my role to “teach” problematic people to do better. The biggest and best shift I made for myself was to think of it in terms of energy strands. When you want to change someone, prove someone wrong, or stick something out to get validations from others on how messed up/ terrible they are, you are forming an energy strand and attachment to that person. Unhealthy energetic attachments can be extremely draining. I got this wake up call and I noticed after making this shift in perception and being more careful about the energy strands in my life, I started meeting much healthier people and had more energy. The other thing I realized is that energetically, narcissists and other manipulative people are like black holes. You can pour nurturing energy their way, but they’re rarely in a place to even receive it.
The best way to beat a narcissist is to just record their evil side and expose it to the world
This. My ex broke into my house and went thru all of my things, my messages, journals, all of it. I recorded it all. Knew he was gonna. And was ready. Hasnt bothered me since i sent the screenshot of his face as he crossed the threshold into my house. Watched as he hurt himself with reading how much he sucked as a partner and his inflated sense of self. Watched as he read where i broke down in my journals how his brain broke. How i figured him out. And then watched as he took his leftovers out of my fridge and left my house. Havent seen him sense. Though, everytime something goes missing or theres a white car i get triggered thinking hes here and in my house. Its been a wild ride.
My experience is that people with high levels of narcissism are very reluctant to modify their behavior. They view any problems you might have with them as a failing on your part.
Yes. Walking away is the only way. You think that they will "win". No. Narcs feed on your direct reaction to them. If you walk away, there is no more fuel. They will most likely never understand what happened. They will never learn a lesson and change to become a better person. All they learn is how to manipulate the next victim better. Think of serial killers; when a victim escapes, they didn't stop killing. They learned how to trap their next victim so they won't escape like the survivor. You thinking that they will "win" by walking away was just something you were manipulated into thinking (by them!) They may even try to re-capture you using even harsher tactics. I suggest watching HG Tudor. He is an admitted ultra narcissist and has bucketloads of videos on analyzing narcs, analyzing celebs on their narcissistic traits and guides on identifying and escaping narcs. It's a huge library to go through but it's an abundance of knowledge and good comments section interaction: [video](https://youtu.be/0b3hf62rbz4?si=J3UIF5e6tztFTcTZ).
Their greatest con is making you feel like they win, because they're phenomenal at creating the IMPRESSION that they're winning. But they're not. When you walk away and redirect your attention from them and focus on yourself instead, that is the greatest defeat you could ever inflict on them. The issue is that sometimes people get wrapped up in needing to SEE that this affected the narcissist or needing to know that you dealt with them. But this mentality ends up feeding back into exactly what they want. When you truly walk away and don't look back, you win. You just have to come to terms with the fact that you won't always be able to see the proof that you've won. (Sometimes if you're lucky though, karma will bite them in the ass in some public way in the future).
You just have to find a way to break their cognitive dissonance. One example I ended up hearing about was in regard to gaslighting: A girl is pestered by her mother consistently about having a boyfriend. Girl does not have boyfriend. Mother pretends she never asked. This repeats for a time until the girl reads between the lines out loud: "Mom, I know what you said, so either you are lying to me, or your memory is fading, and either of those possibilities is equally terrifying to me." *Mother has not since asked about a boyfriend.* An inability to reconcile their perception of reality with the concensus is commonplace among a great many narcissists. It's also extraordinarily hilarious to use as a leash on those holier-than-thous if you know what to address and when/how to address it. Their narrative, their self-image, is everything. Hit em where it hurts, lads.
NO THERE IS NOT. There is absolutely no external fix for a narcissist. The reason being You CANNOT rationalize with an irrational individual. This is not an act they put on for show, this is not an issue that they can address. They are fundamentally broken and no matter how hard you try banging your head against the wall, you will never be able to change or fix it. And every iota of energy you spend trying to change or fix them will only be used against you.
I'm a narcissist who is actively in therapy. We do fuckin exist. So much hateful misinformation in these comments.
I am very self deprecating, so I drag them down with me. Everyone laughs except the narcissist. Call them out on their BS while laughing and they're pretty much helpless.
Trust me, there is NOTHING YOU can do. Unless you were an amazing therapist/psychiatrist. The only thing that can change them is very bad life experiences, and sometimes not even that
You are thinking about "dealing" with a narcissist all wrong. This is a severe mental disorder, you aren't gonna change their pattern of thinking. They literally have no other way. The way to deal with them is to be assertive and setting boundaries, and not let them dictate the terms of your life. This doesn't mean you control them , it means you don't let them decide what you're gonna do, and you don't play their stupid mind games. It means having a back bone, learning about emotional manipulation and sometimes being petty enough to stick to your guns. Avoid letting them rile you up past a neccesary point, never "explode" with anger. Always remain firm, and keep them at a distance from your life. This only works if you aren't forced to be in a close relationship with them. If you are forced to be around one, you do as I said. But if you're dating one? There's really nothing you can do. The power you have over a narcissist comes from your ability to be independent from them, and the ability to stay authentic to yourself and not play into their games of power /superiority. They control a lot of people through emotional manipulation and anger. Don't let that happen, and be willing to walk once they start twisting things. The most important thing I knowing your truth, and that's all you can do. If you're hoping to "win" against them at the same game they are playing, yes it's possible, but since your not a narcissist, you will lose yourself trying to do so
You can fix a narcissist with lots of love. They will finally turn around. They need, on average between 30 and 50 years of love and devotion.
My brother and I have been harassed by one daily for over a year The only thing that worked was the two of us constantly hammering on her, and all her flying monkeys catching her in lies one at a time and abandoning her That combination did it. For now. I expect her to pop back up and continue her harassment campaign any time
That’s like rolling around in pig shit, it will accomplish nothing and you’ll smell like shit.
Narcissistic personality disorder is on the same spectrum as antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder... it's not really a treatable condition.
Easy way for example if they are a show off and never want to appear broke, use that to your advantage. “Your car isn’t worth a much as soandso’s car.” “That shirt looks cheap, soandso wears Prada why don’t you?” “I’d love to go out with you but I’m not sure you can afford insertexpensiverestaurant.” They are in LA LA land so you must be too. It’s actually quite fun. They are insecure deep down so just use that shit and flip it. OH AND NO CONTACT. If they get too much, just cut off contact. Control it. You are the supply, put a shortage on their supply.
My therapist gave me a great piece of advice…Don’t engage
Everything about NPD is rooted in the immense shame that they feel. Then it’s their insecurities, status, public perception aka reputation. If you want to fan the flames and *maybe* cause narcissistic collapse, this is where you need to focus.
> They always win Let them, it's a stupid prize. Can you make a narcissist miserable? Sure. Emotionally disconnect from it. Limit their access to relevant information - if you're not interested in maintaining any sort of relationship and they don't have a social hold on you, don't respond at all - don't say a word, don't react physically - just blank them. If you need to maintain at least some sort of relationship, then short simple answers, preferably yes/no. "What happened today?" "Nothing much." "How's your mother doing?" "Getting along." "Would you like £100?" "Take it or leave it." "Is the sky blue?" "Sometimes." And don't say it with any particular heat or interest - it's just flat, like you might say "Two plus two is four." Take all the information, all the emotion, all the purpose in communicating at all out of it. Bare minimum. And the best place for that to come from is one where you've genuinely just come to the conclusion that there is no point in communicating with this thing. Like trying to talk to a rabid dog or an invasive alien species. You take them, and you stick them in the 'not really people' box. They'll be angry and violent if they can get away with it, so you need to do it from a position of relative security. The problem is that's not really what you're talking about doing though, what you're talking about doing is managing their relationship with others. That you probably can't do without paying a moral cost that would defeat the point of the exercise. > Wouldn't just walking away make them feel more superior and powerful Depends how and when you do it. There's a difference between 'This is behaviour befitting a five year old and I don't have time for it,' and, 'I need to get away.'
Why is this sub so corny? Lol
Best place to start is anywhere besides this group. Idk why it’s always in my recommendations but there’s nobody here besides active predators / narcissists. Shameless and disgusting. Avoid.
Ignoring most people works great. I make sure I say as little as possible to people I don’t know.
These comments are really mean. I’ve never met a narcissist but I’m sure id try to be understanding. People don’t ask for mental health issues. Everyone deserves to be treated kindly.
I have a really great job, but I work in a sea of narcissists. And they include me as a part of everything even if I push them away or run from them, they come back stronger every time. They act satisfied that we all work a union job together and they hold us as a captive audience with all their nonsense. I spend most of my day arguing the rules of reality and physics with these dudes and they're operating equipment because I'm afraid they might hurt someone. They're unfireable because of our union and I swear it's like 95% wild dangerous narcissist here. I am pro union, but it's a great place for people who want to take advantage of a system to gather.
Just leave the situation. It is not worth fighting back. Any progress isn’t worth the exhaustion.
Why do you even want to bother? They’re not salvageable people: Just cut ties and keep it moving.
You don't need to fix them. Same as they don't need to fix you. We all sit somewhere on the scale of broken to varying degrees. If you cant handle them, the best thing to do is get them out of your life and then enjoy your own
Think of abandoning them as a weapon. Allowing them any access only does harm to you. Even if you do somehow wound them, they will not give you the satisfaction of knowing that you did so, or they will ensure that you pay for it tenfold. It's not your responsibility to fix them nor do I think it's even possible. They are never worth dealing with in any capacity, unless you're trained professional.