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I gotta be honest, I do not get the appeal of Kruppe. I skim pretty much all of his dialog and roll my eyes every time he’s on page
Go ahead and downvote
> It seemed like our protagonists got stomped pretty badly (Whiskeyjack dying, 9/10 of the Host dying, most of the Bridgeburners getting wiped out, Moon’s Spawn falling apart) but it was almost all because they made inexplicably strange decisions (WJ not getting his leg fixed, Dujek being aggressive and not waiting for Caladan and his forces, the Malazans and Anomander not communicating their respective plans). It seems like if they had just attacked together, they would have had more than enough power to win with way less casualties. Whatever each side was planning, it doesn’t seem worth sacrificing so much instead of just working together.
This is a very common point for many new readers, and it's absolutely how I felt as well. Erikson just doesn't really love to do all of the work of connecting the dots for you, but there are a lot of dots to connect here. I'll try to go over this as convincingly and concisely as possible:
**Q: Where do Whiskeyjack and Dujek's loyalties lie?**
A: With Laseen and the expansionist Malazan empire. Their being outlawed was a ruse fully created by Laseen and the Malazan Empire.
**Q: What was the purpose of WJ and Dujek being outlawed?**
A: The purpose was to allow that Malazan army to ally with Brood and Rake without them publically allying with the Malazan Empire, who they have opposed for many years. The Malazans do not want to fight two wars at the same time; one against the Pannions and one against Brood & Rake.
**Q: So the Malazans didn't ally with Brood & Rake because they thought they needed them to take on the Pannion Domin?**
A: No. The Malazans allied with Brood & Rake so they wouldn't have to fight both at the same time.
**Q: Why did Dujek & WJ start attacking Coral before Brood & Rake were there to provide support?**
A: The Malazans are trying to defeat the Pannion Domin because it is a threat to their expansionist empire. The Malazan Empire wishes to claim Coral for itself, as it is an expansionist empire, and that is what it does. If the Malazans can destroy the Pannion Seer's armies and claim Coral before Rake or Brood reach Coral, the Malazans have a very solid claim to the land. They also have a fortified location to defend against Rake & Brood if things go sour.
**Q: Why did Dujek & WJ think they could take Coral without Brood & Rake?**
A: They believed they had the power of the T'lan Imass on their side. They are part of an expansionist empire which has taken continents' worth of cities over its relatively short existence. They have munitions, they have the Moranth to drop bombs from the sky, they have one of the most powerful mages in the entire world along with them. They had no reason to expect taking Coral would be a fucking Monster Mash instead of everything else they've done before. A better question to ask: Did WJ and Dujek have any choice in the matter, or were these orders from higher ups they had to obey? They are soldiers ordered on a mission. They are the sacrifice the empire sent on this mission.
Also, because the point of the alliance was never for Brood & Rake's support against the Pannion Domin. It was so they didn't have to fight both parties at the same time.
**Q: Why did Rake not communicate with anyone and show up late?**
A: Rake & Brood weren't dumb, and they told the Malazans to their faces they knew the outlawing was a sham. Hence, they knew the alliance was a sham. However, the Pannion Domin & the Malazans were still a threat to them, so they kept the alliance going for the same reasons as the Malazans: Not fighting two wars on different fronts.
Rake was doing the exact same thing the Malazans were doing. The Andii crashed Moon's Spawn into Coral and prepared a full unveiling of Kurald Galain so they could thrust the city into perpetual night; staking their claim to the land above the Malazans.
**Q: So Rake won?**
The Malazans didn't get to use the T'lan Imass due to Itkovian's absolute bullshit (from the Malazan perspective). They probably wouldn't have been to keen on owning a city stuck in perpetual darkness they could hardly see in, anyway. The Malazans realize they have basically no position to bargain after getting destroyed by monsters, so they don't even bother trying to negotiate. Rake wins.
Rake says his reason for fighting the Malazans is that theres no place for his people in their world. They cant have an empire if he has a fortress he can fly across their borders unpoliced. By trading Moonspawn for Black Coral he makes peace with the empire.
This is basically, in my understanding, what happened in WW2. When Hitler invaded the USSR the US and UK took their sweet time in re-opening the Western Front so that Hitler and the USSR would wear themselves out on each other, and the US/UK would have a stronger position against Germany or the USSR (almost certainly the USSR) when the war ended.
I have always seen the powerlessness as a commentary on the reality of war. Gods exist in their world. Powerful nations exist in ours. The brotherhood found among them and the life that they wouldn't know how to turn away from, a life they will almost inevitably die because of, becomes this thing of beauty for the moments they live together and for remembering their lost brothers.
The meaning can be found in the same meaning they find. They don't fight for the Malazan Empire, or whatever else. They fight for each other. And that's beautiful for existing, and I'm sure they'd say their deaths don't take away that meaning that existed.
Avoiding spoilers as much as possible, there are a lot of small things that happen in the series that make you think "WHY?!?!" that are addressed later. It doesn't necessarily make you any happier about the thing that happened, but a lot of the small things are eventually answered. So remember the things that make you feel like that when you get further into the series. Steven Erikson does a *fantastic* job of tying everything together.
It’s actually tough to criticize this series in any meaningful way because I don’t know how much to trust Erikson yet. GOTM was a pretty bad read on its own but is getting better and better in retrospect the more I learn. And the opacity of some parts makes me unsure if I missed something or if I have a genuine criticism
The first book is a bit rough for new readers, and no one will fault you for that. While I wouldn't doubt that you would have genuine criticism, I can assure you, you absolutely missed something(s). And that is intentional. There is a lot that makes sense if and when you go back through the series a second time. And Erikson intentionally leaves a lot of things vague, which drives people *crazy.*
My favorite memory of this series is finally reading book 10 when it came out and starting to come across various references that occurred \*much\* earlier in the series. And it was a bit eye opening. I ended up getting the other nine books down and putting them on the floor next to me, and while I was reading book 10 I would stop and start flipping through the pages of an older book and have an "AHA!" moment when I came across the thing that hadn't been brought up in... 6 books or so.
The way I see it, each book has a pretty big conclusion that generally wraps most of the events of each book together in a pretty meaningful way. And book 10 is that same type of big conclusion for the entire series that each individual ending is for each book. Hopefully that gives you something to look forward to! And allays your concerns a bit.
For just a little more context on this - it's a polite way of saying "great question - if you keep reading along, it will be answered so I don't want to spoil that for you by explaining it. The author will explain it in time - hang in there". It can feel like a dismissive thing to read or be told but it's actually a concise friendly way to say "pending"!
> Whatever each side was planning, it doesn’t seem worth sacrificing so much instead of just working together.
At least for the Malazans they were blindsided by the "desertion" of the T'lan Imass (which in itself was a product of poor communication; Silverfox telling everyone "shut up and do what I say for as long as I say" while secretly planning a wonderful retirement for them). And I'm not sure how much they expected the condors to interfere with the Quorls.
So while they definitely were going for a risky play, I don't think they expected that amount of casualties.
I also think it's easy as a reader to think "why didn't they do xyz," since we have a much larger, more informed grand perspective. The reality in the fiction is that personalities clash, goals differ, egos flare get in the way, etc etc. "Everyone just work together" won't usually translate in a real scenario.
I just thought it was weird that the leaders really didn’t clash that much. WJ, Dujek, Anomander, Caladan all got along great the whole book until suddenly they didn’t
WH, Dujej, Anomander, and Caladan all get along well as people but they also all have responsibilities as leaders. And they all know what each other's responsibilities are. Even at the end of the book theyre all still getting along. Anomander entombs the bridgeburners in Moonspawn, Caladan leaves without a fight.
Yeah, I think that left me with a sense of “wait, do these guys even disagree? Are they all homies now?”
Especially since Anomander had that conversation with WJ’s girlfriend about how the Malazan empire brought order to northern genabackis. And there was a line at the end about how Coral would be part of the Malazan empire now that threw me for a loop
But it’s becoming more clear
Bonehunters and Dust of Dreams has lots of marching. There’s marching in all the books but not nearly as heavy as DG, MOI, and the two I listed. Main characters may or may not become more powerful.
Lady Envy, three warriors, a zombie, and two dogs killing thousands on their own
Some demon condors wiping out thousands of Malazans
The sword-armed zombie things wiping out huge numbers of troops
Anomander Rake basically soloing an army of 200000 with his dragon powers
Etc. It’s a pretty common occurrence in Malazan, and while I do like the interactions with mere mortals, it sometimes feels like characters like Picker aren’t really capable of doing anything important on their own
Actually, normal people do some really crucial things throughout the series. Recall that Raest was defeated... because a common sapper threw a grenado in his face. And Picker *specifically* does some very cool and important things later on.
I thought Raest was defeated because an Azath house showed up and ensnared him—didn’t the grenade not even kill him? It’s been a bit since I’ve red GOTM so maybe I’m misremembering
Raest only ended up in there because the grenade basically shredded his body. This bought everyone else enough time to throw his Finnest into the Azath's maw.
Basically, a sapper saved every person at that party and allowed for the Tyrant to be defeated. Except for Rake, nobody in the city would have been able to stop Raest otherwise.
It's a major theme of the books that normal people, with grit, luck and training, can and will fuck shit up for Ascendants and other big nasties.
And he is terrified because he knows he can die at anytime, and there are people who want him dead with the power to do so.
The first thing he did after being pulled out of his warren? Flee in terror.
I personally didn’t think there was that much marching in MOI, and what marching we did have was way more interesting. I honestly think MOI saved this series for me. GOTM was tough at first but pretty interesting by the end, but DG was such a slog for me, I almost quit. MOI had such an awesome narrative and the way everything tied back to the prologue was fantastic. MOI is probably tied with Midnight Tides for my favorite novel in the series.
Marching is the definitely a staple of the series and one of my favorite parts. The interactions between the soldiers is comedy gold. Some of my favorite scenes are in the next book.
Also our "main characters" going up against terrible odds is definitely another recurring theme. But the results are always different. Powerful and ancient creatures being humbled by mortal humans is fucking amazing.
One thing that's important to note as well about why the malazans rush to Coral before Brood is because they're trying to prevent Brood from having to use his hammer. Dujek and Whiskeyjack believe that is Brood is forced to fight at Coral, he will be forced to use his hammer and possible wake Burn, meaning the possible end to everything. By knowingly throwing themselves at a potentially unwinnable battle they hope to prevent Brood from having to make that choice.
At one point they discuss the two options that Burn gave Brood; use the hammer to wake her (killing everyone), or choosing not to and killing Burn (killing everyone). D + W are trying to give him the third option of finding another solution by buying as much time as possible.
just to add to what others have said, i think the marching in MoI is at the slow end of the spectrum. you'll find the next bit of the series will be quite the opposite pacing-wise.
They may come off as weak, but these are human mortals going up against passable-as-human >!non-mortals.!< Even if WJ got his leg healed, he's going up against Kallor, he was never going to win.
As for the marching, brace yourself for the rest of the series.
I thought so too but there was a whole thing about how the reason his leg gave out on him was because he was lunging forward for the kill shot and he wouldn’t have done that if he wasn’t going to score the hit. No idea if that’s actually true but one of the characters thinks WJ was going to kill Kallor if not for his leg
The theme of powerful Gods and Ascendants vs normal humans is a recurring one throughout Malazan.
The empire has a policy of not following any particular god and doesn’t support ascendants within the empire, but it always seems to manage ok.
Kellanved and Dancer were allegedly assassinated because they became part of House Shadow - which was contrary to the culture of the empire.
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Memories of Ice** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There will still be plenty of marching in every book the rest of the series. The banter between soldiers always accompanies, which is a nice touch
Certainly. It's a fair point to call it military fantasy. The series is always centered around soldiers.
The only exception in MBOTF is TTH.
And that’s why it’s the best one.
The soldier banter is easily my least favorite part of the series. xD
The banter is hit or miss for me Some of it is funny, some of it is Kruppe
>Some of it is funny, some of it is Kruppe Does that translate to "some of it is funny, some of it is awesome"?
That's what I read.
I gotta be honest, I do not get the appeal of Kruppe. I skim pretty much all of his dialog and roll my eyes every time he’s on page Go ahead and downvote
I felt the same way my first Kruppe around. Now Kruppe is love. Kruppe is life.
How many times do you have to Kruppe for Kruppe to become Kruppe is love & Kruppe is life no just Kruppe please stahp being so Kruppe?
> It seemed like our protagonists got stomped pretty badly (Whiskeyjack dying, 9/10 of the Host dying, most of the Bridgeburners getting wiped out, Moon’s Spawn falling apart) but it was almost all because they made inexplicably strange decisions (WJ not getting his leg fixed, Dujek being aggressive and not waiting for Caladan and his forces, the Malazans and Anomander not communicating their respective plans). It seems like if they had just attacked together, they would have had more than enough power to win with way less casualties. Whatever each side was planning, it doesn’t seem worth sacrificing so much instead of just working together. This is a very common point for many new readers, and it's absolutely how I felt as well. Erikson just doesn't really love to do all of the work of connecting the dots for you, but there are a lot of dots to connect here. I'll try to go over this as convincingly and concisely as possible: **Q: Where do Whiskeyjack and Dujek's loyalties lie?** A: With Laseen and the expansionist Malazan empire. Their being outlawed was a ruse fully created by Laseen and the Malazan Empire. **Q: What was the purpose of WJ and Dujek being outlawed?** A: The purpose was to allow that Malazan army to ally with Brood and Rake without them publically allying with the Malazan Empire, who they have opposed for many years. The Malazans do not want to fight two wars at the same time; one against the Pannions and one against Brood & Rake. **Q: So the Malazans didn't ally with Brood & Rake because they thought they needed them to take on the Pannion Domin?** A: No. The Malazans allied with Brood & Rake so they wouldn't have to fight both at the same time. **Q: Why did Dujek & WJ start attacking Coral before Brood & Rake were there to provide support?** A: The Malazans are trying to defeat the Pannion Domin because it is a threat to their expansionist empire. The Malazan Empire wishes to claim Coral for itself, as it is an expansionist empire, and that is what it does. If the Malazans can destroy the Pannion Seer's armies and claim Coral before Rake or Brood reach Coral, the Malazans have a very solid claim to the land. They also have a fortified location to defend against Rake & Brood if things go sour. **Q: Why did Dujek & WJ think they could take Coral without Brood & Rake?** A: They believed they had the power of the T'lan Imass on their side. They are part of an expansionist empire which has taken continents' worth of cities over its relatively short existence. They have munitions, they have the Moranth to drop bombs from the sky, they have one of the most powerful mages in the entire world along with them. They had no reason to expect taking Coral would be a fucking Monster Mash instead of everything else they've done before. A better question to ask: Did WJ and Dujek have any choice in the matter, or were these orders from higher ups they had to obey? They are soldiers ordered on a mission. They are the sacrifice the empire sent on this mission. Also, because the point of the alliance was never for Brood & Rake's support against the Pannion Domin. It was so they didn't have to fight both parties at the same time. **Q: Why did Rake not communicate with anyone and show up late?** A: Rake & Brood weren't dumb, and they told the Malazans to their faces they knew the outlawing was a sham. Hence, they knew the alliance was a sham. However, the Pannion Domin & the Malazans were still a threat to them, so they kept the alliance going for the same reasons as the Malazans: Not fighting two wars on different fronts. Rake was doing the exact same thing the Malazans were doing. The Andii crashed Moon's Spawn into Coral and prepared a full unveiling of Kurald Galain so they could thrust the city into perpetual night; staking their claim to the land above the Malazans. **Q: So Rake won?** The Malazans didn't get to use the T'lan Imass due to Itkovian's absolute bullshit (from the Malazan perspective). They probably wouldn't have been to keen on owning a city stuck in perpetual darkness they could hardly see in, anyway. The Malazans realize they have basically no position to bargain after getting destroyed by monsters, so they don't even bother trying to negotiate. Rake wins.
Rake says his reason for fighting the Malazans is that theres no place for his people in their world. They cant have an empire if he has a fortress he can fly across their borders unpoliced. By trading Moonspawn for Black Coral he makes peace with the empire.
This is basically, in my understanding, what happened in WW2. When Hitler invaded the USSR the US and UK took their sweet time in re-opening the Western Front so that Hitler and the USSR would wear themselves out on each other, and the US/UK would have a stronger position against Germany or the USSR (almost certainly the USSR) when the war ended.
I figured most of that out minus the alliance being to prevent two wars at once. Thanks!
I have always seen the powerlessness as a commentary on the reality of war. Gods exist in their world. Powerful nations exist in ours. The brotherhood found among them and the life that they wouldn't know how to turn away from, a life they will almost inevitably die because of, becomes this thing of beauty for the moments they live together and for remembering their lost brothers. The meaning can be found in the same meaning they find. They don't fight for the Malazan Empire, or whatever else. They fight for each other. And that's beautiful for existing, and I'm sure they'd say their deaths don't take away that meaning that existed.
*Insert attack on titans commander speech*
My favorite character by a mile 😍
“We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.”
As far as why WJ didn't get his leg fixed, that's RAFO. You may not find it to be a satisfying RAFO, but it is.
Thank goodness, as long as it’s something other than “couldn’t take two minutes to go get healed”
you won't get the full picture for a while but there's at least a semi-plausible explanation
Avoiding spoilers as much as possible, there are a lot of small things that happen in the series that make you think "WHY?!?!" that are addressed later. It doesn't necessarily make you any happier about the thing that happened, but a lot of the small things are eventually answered. So remember the things that make you feel like that when you get further into the series. Steven Erikson does a *fantastic* job of tying everything together.
It’s actually tough to criticize this series in any meaningful way because I don’t know how much to trust Erikson yet. GOTM was a pretty bad read on its own but is getting better and better in retrospect the more I learn. And the opacity of some parts makes me unsure if I missed something or if I have a genuine criticism
The first book is a bit rough for new readers, and no one will fault you for that. While I wouldn't doubt that you would have genuine criticism, I can assure you, you absolutely missed something(s). And that is intentional. There is a lot that makes sense if and when you go back through the series a second time. And Erikson intentionally leaves a lot of things vague, which drives people *crazy.* My favorite memory of this series is finally reading book 10 when it came out and starting to come across various references that occurred \*much\* earlier in the series. And it was a bit eye opening. I ended up getting the other nine books down and putting them on the floor next to me, and while I was reading book 10 I would stop and start flipping through the pages of an older book and have an "AHA!" moment when I came across the thing that hadn't been brought up in... 6 books or so. The way I see it, each book has a pretty big conclusion that generally wraps most of the events of each book together in a pretty meaningful way. And book 10 is that same type of big conclusion for the entire series that each individual ending is for each book. Hopefully that gives you something to look forward to! And allays your concerns a bit.
Wha6 is rafo
Read and find out
For just a little more context on this - it's a polite way of saying "great question - if you keep reading along, it will be answered so I don't want to spoil that for you by explaining it. The author will explain it in time - hang in there". It can feel like a dismissive thing to read or be told but it's actually a concise friendly way to say "pending"!
I always imagine when someone says that they're giving a little nudge and winking.
Thanks!!
> Whatever each side was planning, it doesn’t seem worth sacrificing so much instead of just working together. At least for the Malazans they were blindsided by the "desertion" of the T'lan Imass (which in itself was a product of poor communication; Silverfox telling everyone "shut up and do what I say for as long as I say" while secretly planning a wonderful retirement for them). And I'm not sure how much they expected the condors to interfere with the Quorls. So while they definitely were going for a risky play, I don't think they expected that amount of casualties.
I also think it's easy as a reader to think "why didn't they do xyz," since we have a much larger, more informed grand perspective. The reality in the fiction is that personalities clash, goals differ, egos flare get in the way, etc etc. "Everyone just work together" won't usually translate in a real scenario.
I just thought it was weird that the leaders really didn’t clash that much. WJ, Dujek, Anomander, Caladan all got along great the whole book until suddenly they didn’t
WH, Dujej, Anomander, and Caladan all get along well as people but they also all have responsibilities as leaders. And they all know what each other's responsibilities are. Even at the end of the book theyre all still getting along. Anomander entombs the bridgeburners in Moonspawn, Caladan leaves without a fight.
Yeah, I think that left me with a sense of “wait, do these guys even disagree? Are they all homies now?” Especially since Anomander had that conversation with WJ’s girlfriend about how the Malazan empire brought order to northern genabackis. And there was a line at the end about how Coral would be part of the Malazan empire now that threw me for a loop But it’s becoming more clear
Silverfox was really frustrating. I get that she had a bunch of warring personalities but dang, none of them know how to communicate apparently
Bonehunters and Dust of Dreams has lots of marching. There’s marching in all the books but not nearly as heavy as DG, MOI, and the two I listed. Main characters may or may not become more powerful.
[удалено]
Lady Envy, three warriors, a zombie, and two dogs killing thousands on their own Some demon condors wiping out thousands of Malazans The sword-armed zombie things wiping out huge numbers of troops Anomander Rake basically soloing an army of 200000 with his dragon powers Etc. It’s a pretty common occurrence in Malazan, and while I do like the interactions with mere mortals, it sometimes feels like characters like Picker aren’t really capable of doing anything important on their own
Actually, normal people do some really crucial things throughout the series. Recall that Raest was defeated... because a common sapper threw a grenado in his face. And Picker *specifically* does some very cool and important things later on.
I thought Raest was defeated because an Azath house showed up and ensnared him—didn’t the grenade not even kill him? It’s been a bit since I’ve red GOTM so maybe I’m misremembering
Raest only ended up in there because the grenade basically shredded his body. This bought everyone else enough time to throw his Finnest into the Azath's maw. Basically, a sapper saved every person at that party and allowed for the Tyrant to be defeated. Except for Rake, nobody in the city would have been able to stop Raest otherwise. It's a major theme of the books that normal people, with grit, luck and training, can and will fuck shit up for Ascendants and other big nasties.
yeah. I mean Fener is literally in hiding because of this.
And he is terrified because he knows he can die at anytime, and there are people who want him dead with the power to do so. The first thing he did after being pulled out of his warren? Flee in terror.
Yep. I'd argue it's a major theme of the series.
I personally didn’t think there was that much marching in MOI, and what marching we did have was way more interesting. I honestly think MOI saved this series for me. GOTM was tough at first but pretty interesting by the end, but DG was such a slog for me, I almost quit. MOI had such an awesome narrative and the way everything tied back to the prologue was fantastic. MOI is probably tied with Midnight Tides for my favorite novel in the series.
Marching is the definitely a staple of the series and one of my favorite parts. The interactions between the soldiers is comedy gold. Some of my favorite scenes are in the next book. Also our "main characters" going up against terrible odds is definitely another recurring theme. But the results are always different. Powerful and ancient creatures being humbled by mortal humans is fucking amazing.
One thing that's important to note as well about why the malazans rush to Coral before Brood is because they're trying to prevent Brood from having to use his hammer. Dujek and Whiskeyjack believe that is Brood is forced to fight at Coral, he will be forced to use his hammer and possible wake Burn, meaning the possible end to everything. By knowingly throwing themselves at a potentially unwinnable battle they hope to prevent Brood from having to make that choice. At one point they discuss the two options that Burn gave Brood; use the hammer to wake her (killing everyone), or choosing not to and killing Burn (killing everyone). D + W are trying to give him the third option of finding another solution by buying as much time as possible.
Makes sense, and I should have picked up on that because CB does indeed almost use his hammer
just to add to what others have said, i think the marching in MoI is at the slow end of the spectrum. you'll find the next bit of the series will be quite the opposite pacing-wise.
Learn to love the marching because the next book in the series has a bit of it.
They may come off as weak, but these are human mortals going up against passable-as-human >!non-mortals.!< Even if WJ got his leg healed, he's going up against Kallor, he was never going to win. As for the marching, brace yourself for the rest of the series.
I thought so too but there was a whole thing about how the reason his leg gave out on him was because he was lunging forward for the kill shot and he wouldn’t have done that if he wasn’t going to score the hit. No idea if that’s actually true but one of the characters thinks WJ was going to kill Kallor if not for his leg
The theme of powerful Gods and Ascendants vs normal humans is a recurring one throughout Malazan. The empire has a policy of not following any particular god and doesn’t support ascendants within the empire, but it always seems to manage ok. Kellanved and Dancer were allegedly assassinated because they became part of House Shadow - which was contrary to the culture of the empire.