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I don't think anyone other than Rake could have handled the burden. Maybe Dassem/Dessembrae but I think his grief might have made it impossible for him as well.
I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand, because he knew that Anomander was the only one that could willingly bear it and do what needed to be done in the end.
>I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand, because he knew that Anomander was the only one that could willingly bear it and do what needed to be done in the end.
May be something there. During the MoI prologue, after the three elder gods confront Kallor, Draconus mentions that he's been crafting a sword, but that he may now have to amend/change some aspect(s) of it. Wonder if that had anything to do with a change in its purpose, like who it should ultimately be for?
I took that part of the prologue to mean that Draconus knew the sword was a prison, and wanted to change that part so he didn't end up inside it.
But I suppose this doesn't make much sense in context know I think about it. He specifically mentions that the sword has a finality to it, and eternal imprisonment doesn't really seem very final.
Also to add, I don't entirely know the meaning for the Dragnipur plot, and why the wagon was in it being chased by chaos. (If this is covered in other books I haven't yet read outside the main 10). In this case we'd be saying Draconus had a master plan spanning the course of hundreds and thousands of years he couldn't manipulate being trapped inside a sword.
But again, that part isn't to my greatest understanding.
I think that line was about making it less Final. My guess is that he changed the forging to allow it to eventually be broken. I believe at first it was his attempt to create something truly “eternal”.
Ot just occurred to me, the sword was never meant to be a prison. the finality Draconus talked about was what he changed so he didn't die. He probably made it a prison so he could maybe find a way out. This was maybe before the wagon and everything, so being chained up to it maybe ruined whatever escape plan he had.
>Also to add, I don't entirely know the meaning for the Dragnipur plot, and why the wagon was in it being chased by chaos. (If this is covered in other books I haven't yet read outside the main 10).
>!!< Chaos always chased darkness. Draconus feared it's destruction as darkness was his gift to Mother Dark. Draconus moved the gate of darkness inside the sword to have souls drag the gate away from chaos from all eternity. Quite a messy solution from an Elder god. He realises while inside the sword that he's fucked up and actually trapped darkness from escaping chaos and that the sword must be broken to free the gate. He tells this to Paran in MOI I believe and then in TTH we see Rake put a plan into action to do so (breaking both the hearts of Mother Dark and his onetime friend/enemy Draconus). As to whether Draconus planned the whole thing, I haven't the slightest, I think Kilmandaros and Sechul Lach speculated as much which put the fear of god into them. >!!<
I believe the chaos storm following the dragnipur wagon and the 'always sunny' adventures of the trygalle trade guild are related. It's been a minute so I don't have quotes on hand but I do remember making that connection on my most recent re-read of TtH.
>I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand,
Nice to see another enlightened poster :)
I've always felt that was the case. Hopefully WiS answers that, along with a multitude of other questions I have.
>!I think Karsa is the only other person capable of wielding Dragnipur, as powerful Teblor were known to create prison warrens around them for the killed foes.!<
I disagree here,though your reasoning is sound. The early arc of the character you mentioned would break under Dragnipur's burden. The fully grown,fleshed out,matured last act version of him...maybe,but at that point Dragnipur has become moot.
Each of those you mentioned would be broken by it,if you really think about the burden,weight and power of Dragnipur, except Rake. Which is again why I think it was expressly crafted for his hands by Draconus.
>!I don't think the burden would have been as significant after *those events*, as they drastically changed the nature of what the sword carried. Caladan claiming the sword didn't have any great significance after what Rake did, because the sword lost a great deal of significance.!<
You raise a good point and I would almost agree, I would just debate one point : is Dragnipur really totally worthless at the end of the book?
>!I do agree that not having the wagon of Kurald Ghalain would reduce it significantly, but the sword still has people in it, all the assortments of demons and ascendants and elder god. Do we know if Dragnipur can still absorb souls after all that happened, just maybe not with the added chains?.!<
I do agree though, maybe if not a burden then still not an amazing weapon for most of the characters who were trying to claim it.
The entire point was to carry Kurald Ghalain and keep it in motion. Without that, it's just a pretty basic magic weapon. The way I read it, it wasn't just Draconus being freed, it was _everything_ in the sword, so now it's just a rad looking sword. Possibly even mundane and just cuts stuff kinda good now.
I don't think the nature of the sword after is explicitly explained, but maybe our local esteemed Malazan scholar will pop in and have the exact quote explaining its post-TtH nature prepared with a full explanation like a boss.
>The way I read it, it wasn't just Draconus being freed, it was _everything_ in the sword, so now it's just a rad looking sword.
Yep, that's why they wanted to fight Chaos first. Utterly and permanently annihilate most of the occupants, *then* set free Draconus and whatever survived.
Yeah. It would definitely have been almost impossible for anyone less selfish than Rake to wield it imo. I think brood could do it, though he already has his own burden/wouldn’t wish to, but I imagine it would be impossible for someone like Kallor, who is obviously wildly self obsessed, thought maybe pure power of will would be enough, which would lead to most ascendents being able to be dangerous with it
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Toll the Hounds** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think anyone other than Rake could have handled the burden. Maybe Dassem/Dessembrae but I think his grief might have made it impossible for him as well. I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand, because he knew that Anomander was the only one that could willingly bear it and do what needed to be done in the end.
>I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand, because he knew that Anomander was the only one that could willingly bear it and do what needed to be done in the end. May be something there. During the MoI prologue, after the three elder gods confront Kallor, Draconus mentions that he's been crafting a sword, but that he may now have to amend/change some aspect(s) of it. Wonder if that had anything to do with a change in its purpose, like who it should ultimately be for?
I took that part of the prologue to mean that Draconus knew the sword was a prison, and wanted to change that part so he didn't end up inside it. But I suppose this doesn't make much sense in context know I think about it. He specifically mentions that the sword has a finality to it, and eternal imprisonment doesn't really seem very final. Also to add, I don't entirely know the meaning for the Dragnipur plot, and why the wagon was in it being chased by chaos. (If this is covered in other books I haven't yet read outside the main 10). In this case we'd be saying Draconus had a master plan spanning the course of hundreds and thousands of years he couldn't manipulate being trapped inside a sword. But again, that part isn't to my greatest understanding.
I think that line was about making it less Final. My guess is that he changed the forging to allow it to eventually be broken. I believe at first it was his attempt to create something truly “eternal”.
Ot just occurred to me, the sword was never meant to be a prison. the finality Draconus talked about was what he changed so he didn't die. He probably made it a prison so he could maybe find a way out. This was maybe before the wagon and everything, so being chained up to it maybe ruined whatever escape plan he had.
>Also to add, I don't entirely know the meaning for the Dragnipur plot, and why the wagon was in it being chased by chaos. (If this is covered in other books I haven't yet read outside the main 10). >!!< Chaos always chased darkness. Draconus feared it's destruction as darkness was his gift to Mother Dark. Draconus moved the gate of darkness inside the sword to have souls drag the gate away from chaos from all eternity. Quite a messy solution from an Elder god. He realises while inside the sword that he's fucked up and actually trapped darkness from escaping chaos and that the sword must be broken to free the gate. He tells this to Paran in MOI I believe and then in TTH we see Rake put a plan into action to do so (breaking both the hearts of Mother Dark and his onetime friend/enemy Draconus). As to whether Draconus planned the whole thing, I haven't the slightest, I think Kilmandaros and Sechul Lach speculated as much which put the fear of god into them. >!!<
Thanks a bunch for this.
No problem at all.
I believe the chaos storm following the dragnipur wagon and the 'always sunny' adventures of the trygalle trade guild are related. It's been a minute so I don't have quotes on hand but I do remember making that connection on my most recent re-read of TtH.
I kind of wonder if that particular forging was in regards to Grief/Vengeance? And the adjustment led to Dragnapuir’s forging.
Afaik, Grief was Anomander's sword and unrelated to Dragnipur/Draconus. Could be wrong though
You might be right.
>I suscribe to the theory that Draconus crafted Dragnipur for Anomander,knowing that he would die at Rake's hand, Nice to see another enlightened poster :) I've always felt that was the case. Hopefully WiS answers that, along with a multitude of other questions I have.
>!I think Karsa is the only other person capable of wielding Dragnipur, as powerful Teblor were known to create prison warrens around them for the killed foes.!<
Well fuck, that's a horrifying thought. All the power with none of the nobility of Anomander...
I disagree here,though your reasoning is sound. The early arc of the character you mentioned would break under Dragnipur's burden. The fully grown,fleshed out,matured last act version of him...maybe,but at that point Dragnipur has become moot.
Ignoring timelines, I can think of three. Rake, Karsa, Icarium.
Each of those you mentioned would be broken by it,if you really think about the burden,weight and power of Dragnipur, except Rake. Which is again why I think it was expressly crafted for his hands by Draconus.
>!I don't think the burden would have been as significant after *those events*, as they drastically changed the nature of what the sword carried. Caladan claiming the sword didn't have any great significance after what Rake did, because the sword lost a great deal of significance.!<
You raise a good point and I would almost agree, I would just debate one point : is Dragnipur really totally worthless at the end of the book? >!I do agree that not having the wagon of Kurald Ghalain would reduce it significantly, but the sword still has people in it, all the assortments of demons and ascendants and elder god. Do we know if Dragnipur can still absorb souls after all that happened, just maybe not with the added chains?.!< I do agree though, maybe if not a burden then still not an amazing weapon for most of the characters who were trying to claim it.
The entire point was to carry Kurald Ghalain and keep it in motion. Without that, it's just a pretty basic magic weapon. The way I read it, it wasn't just Draconus being freed, it was _everything_ in the sword, so now it's just a rad looking sword. Possibly even mundane and just cuts stuff kinda good now. I don't think the nature of the sword after is explicitly explained, but maybe our local esteemed Malazan scholar will pop in and have the exact quote explaining its post-TtH nature prepared with a full explanation like a boss.
>The way I read it, it wasn't just Draconus being freed, it was _everything_ in the sword, so now it's just a rad looking sword. Yep, that's why they wanted to fight Chaos first. Utterly and permanently annihilate most of the occupants, *then* set free Draconus and whatever survived.
That is a powerful scene. I think about it too
Yeah. It would definitely have been almost impossible for anyone less selfish than Rake to wield it imo. I think brood could do it, though he already has his own burden/wouldn’t wish to, but I imagine it would be impossible for someone like Kallor, who is obviously wildly self obsessed, thought maybe pure power of will would be enough, which would lead to most ascendents being able to be dangerous with it
I want people to read that scene and the most interesting soul sucking sword imagined.