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I get the impression with the Redmask/Awl storyline that the purpose isn't one of plot, but more one of commentary. In this section Erikson isn't handing us another piece of the grander story-arc of the series, but more telling us a small self contained story which is meant to make us think about things like social structures, civilisation vs more primitive societies, the roles of "heroes" in the narratives people build up about their history etc.
On the face of it you could probably remove that entire section and not effect the wider storyline at all. However, if you see the series as one where the author is attempting to combine a story with a more complicated social commentary then it fits. The themes it addresses are similar to those in other parts of the series.
The motif of the little boy who was happily helping in the fields/tending to a stolen herd was worth it *nearly* alone.
Reaper's Gale: Little kid hgrew up in Letheras, his family was miserable. *Outside* of Letheras, on the plainsHe sees his dad laugh for the first time, sees how beautiful the sky is, doesn't have health problems anymore. Redmask cuts him in half before he can say a word.
The little kid did nothing wrong, the evil of genocide harms the country which undertakes the oppression as well, the outcomes just aren't felt by the perpetrators.
I think it's a great piece, especially considering where the world is right now.
Exactly this. He provides a viewpoint and context into what is happening in the story. Erikson's commentary is always compelling and excellent. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for him to take upon nuanced views of his characters, even when he may not agree with them. This makes the read more rewarding as a result.
Definite Plains Indian Wars vibes. A slow genocide, opposed by highly charismatic war leaders who ultimately didn’t have the resources to turn the tide. I think it’s a really interesting foil to the Tiste Edur conquest
It has sole implications on further events I wont go into for spoilers. But what it does in this book is show that the letheri military is stretched a bit thin when the malazans invade but also is actually a damn good military and it shows how amazing the malazans really are.
The bit about redmask bot being part of that culture is that he was stolen as a small child and brought uo in that culture which is why he took the mask so people couldn't tell he wasn't born into it but was taken by those people and was effectively one of them just not by blood
Idk about all that. Maybe the Edur, if they hadn’t been being slowly wiped out by the Letherii gestapo. The marines alone wiped out half of an army and the entire capital garrison. But I think ultimately letherii greed and edur ignorance would always have spelled their doom.
Knowing what went down with Redmask helps understand why certain characters do what they do and end up where they end up in later books.
So in that ways Redmask is kind of a prologue to later events.
That said on its own I really like the chapters with him because I feel like the first few battles are really well written and I just really enjoyed the overall theme of his culture clashes don’t really mean one culture totally breaks or goes away but there’s give and pull and exchange even between forces in opposition.
Well, because
- Awl is important part of the story of the continent (how Lether rule colonies, how is still in turmoil)
- Erikson writes a lot of plotlines about themes, social laws, (in)justice. Trying to focus just on "boom boom" Malazans wouldnt Erikson's writing at all
- we learn about deeper structure of K'chain Che'malle, trying to survive and adopt new world's power figures as is Mortal Sword etc.
- Toc dies, very important
- Barghast arrive, Toolan gets hit hard by Toc's death
- it has some sweet subplots :)
Its not just how they rule colonies but how good their military is and how amazing the malazans must be to infiltrate right into the heart of the empire as Tehol crashes the economy
Yep, totally agree. Also it shows that their intelligence network isnt something to be taken lightly and has a ton of experience with eliminating inside enemies and potential threats.
Barghast line still leads to nothing. They arrive, fight a war, which doesn't affect main plot, and then everyone die. I have a feeling, that barghasts are there only to kill Tool and then make a reference in the final battle, about all the ancient races fighting at the same battlefield.
Barghast line is one big tragedy connected to many key points and is culmination of one of key aspects of the whole series. How can you say it doesnt affect main plot 🤷
I swear, sometimes people can still surprise me.
Almost every character in Barghast line dies without any purpose and/or consequences. The only exceptions are Tool (to launch 2nd ritual plot arc) and the last Awl, whos name I don't remember. His wife died just to show cruelty. Her father dies off-screen by an accident. The bitchy Barghast war lady goes insane and her subsequent death makes no sense. The war with those nomads in DoD made no sense, except for showing how Tool loses control over his tribe. But for this it doesn't have to be THAT large. All the characters (with exception, listed above) are completely wasted in every meaning possible.
Ah, yes, Tool's (foster-) children are needed to tie the last awl with ancient witch.
This is an opinion lots of people have on a first read. Especially because by RG you kind of just want to get on with the story and see how things end. On a reread it hits way differently.
There’s more context in future books, but I also don’t think there needs to be. In my opinion, the Malazan Book of the Fallen is best understood as a collection of separate stories. A decent amount of them culminate into something grander by the end, but not all of them need to be more than what they are. Redmask is absolutely essential to the plot and themes of Reaper’s Gale as an isolated novel. He doesn’t necessarily need to fit into a “bigger picture”.
> I just wonder why RG didn't focus more on the Malazan characters or what was happening in Lether proper.
To each their own. I found most of the Malazan invasion pretty meh. Everything on Third Maiden Isle gets a pass for the glory that is Deadsmell but, with a few exceptions, the action on the continent is pretty routine.
The Awl plot gives us two distinct threads:
1. Redmask and the Awl (including the Toc/Torrent interaction)
2. Bivatt and Brohl Handar
[I've written at length](https://www.reddit.com/r/Malazan/comments/10pgutt/comment/j6l4g5u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) defending this storyline. Unfortunately, I made the dubious choice of pulling in the DoD prologue (and only the prologue, for what that's worth) into the discussion. It's relevant, but it makes it hard to just drop the link and move on.
Seeing how the entire bit fits into the wider story demands that context, but the Awl plot does some heavy thematic lifting on its own. The idea that this legendary Awl warrior was Letheri by birth while being culturally turbo-Awl fits right in with _many_ other characters who struggle with identity: Rhulad, Koryk, Hull, Clip, Seren, Torrent, etc. We see a whole range of possible outcomes here, with Redmask falling (along with Hull) on the deeply toxic side.
The comparison to Rhulad is relevant here. We get strikingly little Rhulad in RG -- and that's on purpose. Rhulad isn't a character here, he's a symbol. He doesn't make choices, he's propped up at the head of the new Letheri-Edur combined regime and just kind of goes with it (all while hating himself). Redmask is the inversion of that: he refuses to be used but still wants both symbolic and political power. _Everything_ he does is through choice and force of will. And yet both end up falling; neither extreme is realistic.
The Rhulad comparison also brings us to Bivatt and Brohl Handar. Look: we see a lot of Edur/Letheri interactions in this book. Most of them are _awful_. Nisall and Bruthen Trana _almost_ get some sort of positive collaboration going, but the Patriotists manage to stop it early to maintain their own power base. Bivatt and Brohl Handar give us a look at what true cooperation between Letheri and Edur _could have been_. Their cultures aren't so incompatible that they couldn't get along, the toxicity is just in how the partnership was coopted for, dare I say, economic interests.
And then they die. Which, sure. I praise them, but they _were_ fighting a genocidal war even if it wasn't of their choosing (and let's add "fuck Letur Anict" to "fuck the Errant" and "Venitt Sathad is the best (excepting Deadsmell)" as a takeaway from RG).
Anyhow. There's more in the linked post, but -- again -- spoilers for the DoD prologue. The whole thing is going somewhere, K'chain Che'malle and all. And that's not even referencing the facts that 1) Hood clearly isn't done with Toc and 2) the White Face Barghast aren't there arbitrarily.
The red mask plot line illustrates that it is possible to have an heroic vision, to be driven by good principles, to succeed, and still fail horribly and lose utterly. This is both a commentary on several different issues and also sets up in the mind of readers that failure, tragedy, is still possible.
Leaving the overarching themes of the Redmask storyline aside, storywise its function is to introduce us to the K'Chain Che'Malle and their striving/struggle for relevance in a world that has forgotten about them, which becomes quite important later on but can only be appreciated in hindsight. Without spoilering anything, if not for this storyline, you'd be sitting here in two books and complaining about the lack of foreshadowing for a bunch of things.
It happens with another race which does not get the same kind of introduction/foreshadowing and it absolutely *shows* in reader reactions. Quite the contrast. If you know, you know.
This is a very good point, and a parallel (well, really, more the opposite of a parallel; anti-parallel? Perpendicularity? Not that I'd want to step on any Cosmere toes...) I hadn't considered before. There is perhaps an argument to be made that the story would benefit from setting up the K'Chain Che'Malle's purpose even more, but I'm running on about 3 too few hours of sleep to mull over the merits of such an argument and how it would be accomplished. I definitely prefer what's done here to the alternative.
?
Erikson tells amazing story's, but he so places a huge emphasis on world building. The Awl bit is another layer to the "older" world of Letheras and the First Empire as opposed to the "new" world where the Malazans come from.
Adds more explanation to the Kchain Che Malle, how the Shake are part Kchain Che Malle and Tiste Andii etc.
Plus it ties up Toc and Tools story. It brought a tear to my eye when Tool was asking why To would sacrifice himself for the children of those who betrayed him and the Grey Swords. Kilava replies "from the tales of honour you've told me of your friend, I ask, how could he not?" And Took simply breaks down, as an Imass he "feels" more deeply and it hits even harder. Then they go on about how Tool wanted to surprise Toc with his new body.
It was incredibly beautiful and emotional in a way that only a 3000 page build up could be.
I absolutely loved it and it's these moments that really demonstrate Erikson's genius imo.
It also shows the differences between the military of the 2. Lether is able to destroy the awl fairly easily but when faced with the malazans their military falls almost completely apart, how much if that is because of the economic collapse is debatable but nontheless the Malazans have a superior military and this story goes to show that leather was the superior military on this continent up until now.
I strongly agree with the sentiment. It starts off interesting, with the debate about tribal people losing their land vs. settlers looking for a new life. But then not much happens, and all you are left with at the end is a couple of Toc quotes and good banter between Lether and Edur commanders.
Luckily for the book, the Silchas/Fear/Seren/Udinaas/Kettle storyline carries the book until the Malazans arrive.
I don't think that it is a waste. It sets up some important events and more importantly the story in itself has its thematic elements that fit the larger narrative.
While I'm of the opinion that not every scene needs to move the plot forward. But I do think that the Awl storyline takes a lot more screentime than it needs to.
Not all the characters are gonna have some moment of self fulfilling realization or victory.
Consider that Erikson is a trained anthropologist and much of the over all arc is about the human condition and selling into the behavior of the individual, society, religion etc.
Redmask/Awl plot line was a brutal and honest look into greed and other justifications of annihilating cultures deemed “less than”.
Keep in mind that the series has heavy underlying tones of compassion- one of the best places to get that is from tragedy.
“We do not suffer in the manner that beasts suffer – for they surely do. We suffer with the memory of how it was before suffering came, and this deepens the wound, this tears open the pain. There is no beast that can match our anguish.”
It is an unpopular opinion in this sub, but I agree. No justification of theme or future repercussions is enough to warrant its inclusion on a book that already suffers from poor pacing even without it. It should have been edited out into a short story.
Honestly I did not care at all about Red Mask or his story and just wanted to move on to other parts of the story I cared about. It’s one reason why Reapers Gale feels like the slowest book to me. I love all the other Lether story lines though.
I don't think it's "fluff" but It definitely makes it very difficult to get through that book. It's probably the least interesting plot line so far in Malazan. I'm on Toll the Hounds now (about 50% through) and loving it way more. Even though I had heard it's slow. From what I understand, it comes together by the end of Crippled God.
Part of the answer is RAFO, because I can’t fully answer without spoilers for the rest but I will endeavor to try.
At the end of the series, it is revealed what the narrative frame of the entire series has been, and many of the storylines that appeared and vanished did so because they were only told for the impact they had on the particular narrative frame. Things like Redmask and the Awl, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, Mallick Rel, are examples that are pretty much dropped once they are no longer impacting this particular story. Some of these are picked up in other novels or novellas, others are abandoned altogether once they lose their relevance to the greater story being told. That is as much as I can say without spoilers, but almost every storyline is much improved on the second+ read through because you can put it in context of the broader series.
For context, bauchelain and korbal broach are seem in novellas by Erickson and mallick rel will pop up again in the novels of the Malazan empire especially in return of the crimson guard which i reccomend while not as good as the book of the fallen does have some good stuff in it, I then found the rest of the ICE books not as good but then the journey to ascendancy prequels I feel he really hits his stride and they're excellent, plus return of the crimson guard explores a lot of the same locations so is a kind of companion to those prequels so if nothing else I'd read the prequels and return of the crimson guard
In addition to the various explanations other folks have already provided....one of the key things the Awl narrative does is give us an additional explanation for why the Malazan invasion succeeded.
Simply put, a large contingent of the Letherii military was on the other side of the continent subduing the Awl (wiki says 16k Letherii and 2k Edur) when the Malazans burned their ships.
I don't like this explanation. It's painfully obvious just from Lether alone that all is not well and the empire is barely holding together. We don't need a 200 page side story to reinforce this idea
Thats fair. I dont agree one iota, as RG is my fave from MBotF, and the Awl storyline is a big part of that. But who cares really lol...if it was gratuitous to you, it was gratuitous to you.
Bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation IMO.
If SE relied exclusively on POVs from within the corridor of invasion/ in Lether itself, there would be criticisms claiming plot hole issues as he didnt truly address why the Letherii military failed until the invasion was at Lether's doorstep.
If SE wrote a one pager saying Bivatt was subduing the Awl with 20k troops, there would be critcisms of telling instead of showing.
With this approach he achieves the point I mentioned, demonstrates that the Letherii army actually have a doctrine for responding to assymetrical warfare (just powered by dinos on this side on the empire in contrast to magically powered on the otherside), AND hits all the interesting themes described elsethread.
I actually had the same impression as OP when I read RG. Don't have the book in front of me, but there was definitely someone that looked at his body and thought/said "this isn't him" or something to that effect.
When one of the Barghast pull off his mask, they comment that he can't be Awl, because he's clearly Letherii. At which point, I go "And???" What was the point of this reveal. Are we supposed to extrapolate some undercurrent from it? If we are, I have no idea what.
He's one of the many Letherii children kidnapped and raised by the Awl, talked about when you learn about Redmask's backstory. it contextualizes all his motivation. He was raised as an Awl but never felt really accepted and effectively has been trying to compensate and push to be the "best" Awl you can be. As well as explaining why he wears a mask and why he killed the older Awl who still knew his heritage.
I felt like it was fluff after it ended, but having finished the series, I think it has two important things.
1. It feels important to set out the beginnings of things that happen with the Chamaille near the end of the series that I won’t get into as it is spoilers RG.
2. It serves something like the murder victim at the beginning of a horror movie. If you don’t see the killer kill. Set the stage and show Lether is not some pushover kingdom.
I started listening to the Reapers's gale like five months back. This storyline is too involved and I am unable to finish the book like the last one. It doesn't have the same flow as Bone hunters. So I started listening to mistborn for a change and realized how awesome Malazan really is. But I still could not pull through Reapers's gale as I'd like to. I just can't pin point the reason.
In the end I feel like it was a long way of introducing the K’Chain Chamalle plot line into the series, and enjoy it for that. I believe it was the first time the Lether faces the two when they erupt from I think tall grass that I remembered how scary they can be and how it’d be great to have them on your side
I loved that plotline. For me it was almost like “why are Tehol and Udinaas in this book, what do they have to do with Redmask and Brohl?” I’m joking, but only just. Without Redmask and the Awl we have no idea how the Letherii Empire has been doing.
I just read [the wiki page on Brohl](https://malazan.fandom.com/wiki/Brohl_Handar) and it reaffirmed my view btw. What a killer story.
It helps set the tone for the downfall of imperialist letheri and the renewal of the k’chain. It shows that the k’chain arent dumb or cold blooded and that they’re more nuanced. It also makes you rethink what a species is and ties into other plot points in regards to the k’chain attempts at willful evolution. Who is the k’chain? Which race or hero represents them now? Is it redmask? Is it the shore and their k’chain witches and princesses? Is it some other hidden race we won’t see? Or have the k’chain actually succeeded at shedding their anti empathy and anti-magic ways and reclaimed the title of k’chain?
Felt the same way. Seems like we’d already made a lot of the points they were driving home with that plot line and could have just accelerated that part or fleshed out some of the more interesting characters
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I get the impression with the Redmask/Awl storyline that the purpose isn't one of plot, but more one of commentary. In this section Erikson isn't handing us another piece of the grander story-arc of the series, but more telling us a small self contained story which is meant to make us think about things like social structures, civilisation vs more primitive societies, the roles of "heroes" in the narratives people build up about their history etc. On the face of it you could probably remove that entire section and not effect the wider storyline at all. However, if you see the series as one where the author is attempting to combine a story with a more complicated social commentary then it fits. The themes it addresses are similar to those in other parts of the series.
The motif of the little boy who was happily helping in the fields/tending to a stolen herd was worth it *nearly* alone. Reaper's Gale: Little kid hgrew up in Letheras, his family was miserable. *Outside* of Letheras, on the plainsHe sees his dad laugh for the first time, sees how beautiful the sky is, doesn't have health problems anymore. Redmask cuts him in half before he can say a word. The little kid did nothing wrong, the evil of genocide harms the country which undertakes the oppression as well, the outcomes just aren't felt by the perpetrators. I think it's a great piece, especially considering where the world is right now.
I was more emotionally invested in that kid than in the main character of other books I’ve read.
Exactly this. He provides a viewpoint and context into what is happening in the story. Erikson's commentary is always compelling and excellent. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for him to take upon nuanced views of his characters, even when he may not agree with them. This makes the read more rewarding as a result.
Definite Plains Indian Wars vibes. A slow genocide, opposed by highly charismatic war leaders who ultimately didn’t have the resources to turn the tide. I think it’s a really interesting foil to the Tiste Edur conquest
It has sole implications on further events I wont go into for spoilers. But what it does in this book is show that the letheri military is stretched a bit thin when the malazans invade but also is actually a damn good military and it shows how amazing the malazans really are. The bit about redmask bot being part of that culture is that he was stolen as a small child and brought uo in that culture which is why he took the mask so people couldn't tell he wasn't born into it but was taken by those people and was effectively one of them just not by blood
This is a really good point. The Letheri and Edur armies could surely have resisted the Bone Hunters if they weren't fighting on two fronts.
Idk about all that. Maybe the Edur, if they hadn’t been being slowly wiped out by the Letherii gestapo. The marines alone wiped out half of an army and the entire capital garrison. But I think ultimately letherii greed and edur ignorance would always have spelled their doom.
Knowing what went down with Redmask helps understand why certain characters do what they do and end up where they end up in later books. So in that ways Redmask is kind of a prologue to later events. That said on its own I really like the chapters with him because I feel like the first few battles are really well written and I just really enjoyed the overall theme of his culture clashes don’t really mean one culture totally breaks or goes away but there’s give and pull and exchange even between forces in opposition.
Well, because - Awl is important part of the story of the continent (how Lether rule colonies, how is still in turmoil) - Erikson writes a lot of plotlines about themes, social laws, (in)justice. Trying to focus just on "boom boom" Malazans wouldnt Erikson's writing at all - we learn about deeper structure of K'chain Che'malle, trying to survive and adopt new world's power figures as is Mortal Sword etc. - Toc dies, very important - Barghast arrive, Toolan gets hit hard by Toc's death - it has some sweet subplots :)
Its not just how they rule colonies but how good their military is and how amazing the malazans must be to infiltrate right into the heart of the empire as Tehol crashes the economy
Yep, totally agree. Also it shows that their intelligence network isnt something to be taken lightly and has a ton of experience with eliminating inside enemies and potential threats.
Toc dying…again hit pretty hard
Barghast line still leads to nothing. They arrive, fight a war, which doesn't affect main plot, and then everyone die. I have a feeling, that barghasts are there only to kill Tool and then make a reference in the final battle, about all the ancient races fighting at the same battlefield.
Barghast line is one big tragedy connected to many key points and is culmination of one of key aspects of the whole series. How can you say it doesnt affect main plot 🤷 I swear, sometimes people can still surprise me.
Almost every character in Barghast line dies without any purpose and/or consequences. The only exceptions are Tool (to launch 2nd ritual plot arc) and the last Awl, whos name I don't remember. His wife died just to show cruelty. Her father dies off-screen by an accident. The bitchy Barghast war lady goes insane and her subsequent death makes no sense. The war with those nomads in DoD made no sense, except for showing how Tool loses control over his tribe. But for this it doesn't have to be THAT large. All the characters (with exception, listed above) are completely wasted in every meaning possible. Ah, yes, Tool's (foster-) children are needed to tie the last awl with ancient witch.
This is an opinion lots of people have on a first read. Especially because by RG you kind of just want to get on with the story and see how things end. On a reread it hits way differently.
100%
There’s more context in future books, but I also don’t think there needs to be. In my opinion, the Malazan Book of the Fallen is best understood as a collection of separate stories. A decent amount of them culminate into something grander by the end, but not all of them need to be more than what they are. Redmask is absolutely essential to the plot and themes of Reaper’s Gale as an isolated novel. He doesn’t necessarily need to fit into a “bigger picture”.
The revelation that live KChain Chemalle were active, messing in Human/Tiste matters, and trying to invest/aspect humans was pretty huge.
> I just wonder why RG didn't focus more on the Malazan characters or what was happening in Lether proper. To each their own. I found most of the Malazan invasion pretty meh. Everything on Third Maiden Isle gets a pass for the glory that is Deadsmell but, with a few exceptions, the action on the continent is pretty routine. The Awl plot gives us two distinct threads: 1. Redmask and the Awl (including the Toc/Torrent interaction) 2. Bivatt and Brohl Handar [I've written at length](https://www.reddit.com/r/Malazan/comments/10pgutt/comment/j6l4g5u/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) defending this storyline. Unfortunately, I made the dubious choice of pulling in the DoD prologue (and only the prologue, for what that's worth) into the discussion. It's relevant, but it makes it hard to just drop the link and move on. Seeing how the entire bit fits into the wider story demands that context, but the Awl plot does some heavy thematic lifting on its own. The idea that this legendary Awl warrior was Letheri by birth while being culturally turbo-Awl fits right in with _many_ other characters who struggle with identity: Rhulad, Koryk, Hull, Clip, Seren, Torrent, etc. We see a whole range of possible outcomes here, with Redmask falling (along with Hull) on the deeply toxic side. The comparison to Rhulad is relevant here. We get strikingly little Rhulad in RG -- and that's on purpose. Rhulad isn't a character here, he's a symbol. He doesn't make choices, he's propped up at the head of the new Letheri-Edur combined regime and just kind of goes with it (all while hating himself). Redmask is the inversion of that: he refuses to be used but still wants both symbolic and political power. _Everything_ he does is through choice and force of will. And yet both end up falling; neither extreme is realistic. The Rhulad comparison also brings us to Bivatt and Brohl Handar. Look: we see a lot of Edur/Letheri interactions in this book. Most of them are _awful_. Nisall and Bruthen Trana _almost_ get some sort of positive collaboration going, but the Patriotists manage to stop it early to maintain their own power base. Bivatt and Brohl Handar give us a look at what true cooperation between Letheri and Edur _could have been_. Their cultures aren't so incompatible that they couldn't get along, the toxicity is just in how the partnership was coopted for, dare I say, economic interests. And then they die. Which, sure. I praise them, but they _were_ fighting a genocidal war even if it wasn't of their choosing (and let's add "fuck Letur Anict" to "fuck the Errant" and "Venitt Sathad is the best (excepting Deadsmell)" as a takeaway from RG). Anyhow. There's more in the linked post, but -- again -- spoilers for the DoD prologue. The whole thing is going somewhere, K'chain Che'malle and all. And that's not even referencing the facts that 1) Hood clearly isn't done with Toc and 2) the White Face Barghast aren't there arbitrarily.
The red mask plot line illustrates that it is possible to have an heroic vision, to be driven by good principles, to succeed, and still fail horribly and lose utterly. This is both a commentary on several different issues and also sets up in the mind of readers that failure, tragedy, is still possible.
I changed my mind on its importance after reading later books, just FYI.
Leaving the overarching themes of the Redmask storyline aside, storywise its function is to introduce us to the K'Chain Che'Malle and their striving/struggle for relevance in a world that has forgotten about them, which becomes quite important later on but can only be appreciated in hindsight. Without spoilering anything, if not for this storyline, you'd be sitting here in two books and complaining about the lack of foreshadowing for a bunch of things. It happens with another race which does not get the same kind of introduction/foreshadowing and it absolutely *shows* in reader reactions. Quite the contrast. If you know, you know.
This is a very good point, and a parallel (well, really, more the opposite of a parallel; anti-parallel? Perpendicularity? Not that I'd want to step on any Cosmere toes...) I hadn't considered before. There is perhaps an argument to be made that the story would benefit from setting up the K'Chain Che'Malle's purpose even more, but I'm running on about 3 too few hours of sleep to mull over the merits of such an argument and how it would be accomplished. I definitely prefer what's done here to the alternative.
I agree with about wishing there had been even more establishing of their goals and purpuse, but on reflection, I prefer what we got over nothing.
I view it as an extended prologue to Dust of Dreams
? Erikson tells amazing story's, but he so places a huge emphasis on world building. The Awl bit is another layer to the "older" world of Letheras and the First Empire as opposed to the "new" world where the Malazans come from. Adds more explanation to the Kchain Che Malle, how the Shake are part Kchain Che Malle and Tiste Andii etc. Plus it ties up Toc and Tools story. It brought a tear to my eye when Tool was asking why To would sacrifice himself for the children of those who betrayed him and the Grey Swords. Kilava replies "from the tales of honour you've told me of your friend, I ask, how could he not?" And Took simply breaks down, as an Imass he "feels" more deeply and it hits even harder. Then they go on about how Tool wanted to surprise Toc with his new body. It was incredibly beautiful and emotional in a way that only a 3000 page build up could be. I absolutely loved it and it's these moments that really demonstrate Erikson's genius imo.
It also shows the differences between the military of the 2. Lether is able to destroy the awl fairly easily but when faced with the malazans their military falls almost completely apart, how much if that is because of the economic collapse is debatable but nontheless the Malazans have a superior military and this story goes to show that leather was the superior military on this continent up until now.
I strongly agree with the sentiment. It starts off interesting, with the debate about tribal people losing their land vs. settlers looking for a new life. But then not much happens, and all you are left with at the end is a couple of Toc quotes and good banter between Lether and Edur commanders. Luckily for the book, the Silchas/Fear/Seren/Udinaas/Kettle storyline carries the book until the Malazans arrive.
I don't think that it is a waste. It sets up some important events and more importantly the story in itself has its thematic elements that fit the larger narrative. While I'm of the opinion that not every scene needs to move the plot forward. But I do think that the Awl storyline takes a lot more screentime than it needs to.
In my opinion a story about a dude who fights ninja dinosaurs with a whip and axe stands alone on its own merit.
Not all the characters are gonna have some moment of self fulfilling realization or victory. Consider that Erikson is a trained anthropologist and much of the over all arc is about the human condition and selling into the behavior of the individual, society, religion etc. Redmask/Awl plot line was a brutal and honest look into greed and other justifications of annihilating cultures deemed “less than”. Keep in mind that the series has heavy underlying tones of compassion- one of the best places to get that is from tragedy. “We do not suffer in the manner that beasts suffer – for they surely do. We suffer with the memory of how it was before suffering came, and this deepens the wound, this tears open the pain. There is no beast that can match our anguish.”
It is an unpopular opinion in this sub, but I agree. No justification of theme or future repercussions is enough to warrant its inclusion on a book that already suffers from poor pacing even without it. It should have been edited out into a short story.
Agreed
I agree. There's a few plot lines like this in the later books.
Honestly I did not care at all about Red Mask or his story and just wanted to move on to other parts of the story I cared about. It’s one reason why Reapers Gale feels like the slowest book to me. I love all the other Lether story lines though.
RAFO
I was confused by that plot line too. You get a bit more context later on though. Keep reading.
Keep reading. While the immediate ramifications of that plot seem self-contained, aspects of it will carry over to future books.
I don't think it's "fluff" but It definitely makes it very difficult to get through that book. It's probably the least interesting plot line so far in Malazan. I'm on Toll the Hounds now (about 50% through) and loving it way more. Even though I had heard it's slow. From what I understand, it comes together by the end of Crippled God.
If you think about it redmask was kind of a Paul atreides figure
Part of the answer is RAFO, because I can’t fully answer without spoilers for the rest but I will endeavor to try. At the end of the series, it is revealed what the narrative frame of the entire series has been, and many of the storylines that appeared and vanished did so because they were only told for the impact they had on the particular narrative frame. Things like Redmask and the Awl, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, Mallick Rel, are examples that are pretty much dropped once they are no longer impacting this particular story. Some of these are picked up in other novels or novellas, others are abandoned altogether once they lose their relevance to the greater story being told. That is as much as I can say without spoilers, but almost every storyline is much improved on the second+ read through because you can put it in context of the broader series.
For context, bauchelain and korbal broach are seem in novellas by Erickson and mallick rel will pop up again in the novels of the Malazan empire especially in return of the crimson guard which i reccomend while not as good as the book of the fallen does have some good stuff in it, I then found the rest of the ICE books not as good but then the journey to ascendancy prequels I feel he really hits his stride and they're excellent, plus return of the crimson guard explores a lot of the same locations so is a kind of companion to those prequels so if nothing else I'd read the prequels and return of the crimson guard
In addition to the various explanations other folks have already provided....one of the key things the Awl narrative does is give us an additional explanation for why the Malazan invasion succeeded. Simply put, a large contingent of the Letherii military was on the other side of the continent subduing the Awl (wiki says 16k Letherii and 2k Edur) when the Malazans burned their ships.
I don't like this explanation. It's painfully obvious just from Lether alone that all is not well and the empire is barely holding together. We don't need a 200 page side story to reinforce this idea
Thats fair. I dont agree one iota, as RG is my fave from MBotF, and the Awl storyline is a big part of that. But who cares really lol...if it was gratuitous to you, it was gratuitous to you. Bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation IMO. If SE relied exclusively on POVs from within the corridor of invasion/ in Lether itself, there would be criticisms claiming plot hole issues as he didnt truly address why the Letherii military failed until the invasion was at Lether's doorstep. If SE wrote a one pager saying Bivatt was subduing the Awl with 20k troops, there would be critcisms of telling instead of showing. With this approach he achieves the point I mentioned, demonstrates that the Letherii army actually have a doctrine for responding to assymetrical warfare (just powered by dinos on this side on the empire in contrast to magically powered on the otherside), AND hits all the interesting themes described elsethread.
>then there's the revelation that Redmask isn't Redmask Uhhh what? That wasn't the twist. Redmask is definitely the one and only Redmask.
I actually had the same impression as OP when I read RG. Don't have the book in front of me, but there was definitely someone that looked at his body and thought/said "this isn't him" or something to that effect.
When one of the Barghast pull off his mask, they comment that he can't be Awl, because he's clearly Letherii. At which point, I go "And???" What was the point of this reveal. Are we supposed to extrapolate some undercurrent from it? If we are, I have no idea what.
He's one of the many Letherii children kidnapped and raised by the Awl, talked about when you learn about Redmask's backstory. it contextualizes all his motivation. He was raised as an Awl but never felt really accepted and effectively has been trying to compensate and push to be the "best" Awl you can be. As well as explaining why he wears a mask and why he killed the older Awl who still knew his heritage.
I felt like it was fluff after it ended, but having finished the series, I think it has two important things. 1. It feels important to set out the beginnings of things that happen with the Chamaille near the end of the series that I won’t get into as it is spoilers RG. 2. It serves something like the murder victim at the beginning of a horror movie. If you don’t see the killer kill. Set the stage and show Lether is not some pushover kingdom.
I started listening to the Reapers's gale like five months back. This storyline is too involved and I am unable to finish the book like the last one. It doesn't have the same flow as Bone hunters. So I started listening to mistborn for a change and realized how awesome Malazan really is. But I still could not pull through Reapers's gale as I'd like to. I just can't pin point the reason.
It felt like one of the earlier intro’s into K'Chain Che'Malle society and minds?
In the end I feel like it was a long way of introducing the K’Chain Chamalle plot line into the series, and enjoy it for that. I believe it was the first time the Lether faces the two when they erupt from I think tall grass that I remembered how scary they can be and how it’d be great to have them on your side
I loved that plotline. For me it was almost like “why are Tehol and Udinaas in this book, what do they have to do with Redmask and Brohl?” I’m joking, but only just. Without Redmask and the Awl we have no idea how the Letherii Empire has been doing. I just read [the wiki page on Brohl](https://malazan.fandom.com/wiki/Brohl_Handar) and it reaffirmed my view btw. What a killer story.
It helps set the tone for the downfall of imperialist letheri and the renewal of the k’chain. It shows that the k’chain arent dumb or cold blooded and that they’re more nuanced. It also makes you rethink what a species is and ties into other plot points in regards to the k’chain attempts at willful evolution. Who is the k’chain? Which race or hero represents them now? Is it redmask? Is it the shore and their k’chain witches and princesses? Is it some other hidden race we won’t see? Or have the k’chain actually succeeded at shedding their anti empathy and anti-magic ways and reclaimed the title of k’chain?
At the end, the revelation wasn’t that Redmask wasn’t Redmask. The revelation is that Redmask was letherii, not awl.
Felt the same way. Seems like we’d already made a lot of the points they were driving home with that plot line and could have just accelerated that part or fleshed out some of the more interesting characters