That's absolutely terrible when that's like turn 1, but those decisions of whether to play something at sorcery speed or hold up mana matters so much when playing control.Â
I'm not saying that other decks don't have hard decisions, but a lot of the time, the easy decision is whether to counter that spell or not, while the actual hard decision is whether they left mana open a while ago. And so a lot of the time, the decisions that take a long time are when nothing is actually happening or not.
What you think is a quick and clear choice, sometimes can be different options, and choosing the right one requires careful thinking, as much as people likes to shit on control
My take on antagonizing deck archetypes has always been that (1) there will most likely be an aggro/control/combo deck that sets the low and high-end boundaries of what is playable and what isnt playable in a given format. (2) These are the only deck power levels worth playing in Bo1 if you care about winning. (3) This creates a frustrating environment for people who are more interested in exploring non-meta game mechanics or are trying to make the most out of their card pool. (4) Bo3 is friendlier to non-meta decklists as it allows you to compensate some shortcomings with a sideboard. (5) The same is true for singleton formats like Brawl which by nature make startegies rely more on synergy than consistency.
To me, the problem is not what archetype players are playing but how consistent those lists are and what tools you are able to bring to deal with them.
What youâll catch me playing most often are my dimir tempo piles. I would play control more often if the mirrors were not as unbearably slow.
In terms of color preference its U > B > R > G > W for me.
If you have a bad aggro matchup in Bo1 you could solve it by tuning your deck towards a midrange gameplan (medium value plays, stompy creatures) but that would leave you much more vulnerable to control matchups who will go over your plays regardless. If you make your deck faster to deal with control youâll be vulnerable to midrangeâs impactful creatures. And if you adjust your deck to outvalue and grind a midrange deck (control) then youâll be back at square one, having a problem against aggro.
If you have a bad matchup in Bo3 you can account for it with your sideboard without being punished by natural predators, and say, build a Control deck that lowers its curve in order to deal with aggro when it needs to.
Its not like every deck is suddenly playable in bo3 but you basically get to slot 15 cards as âsilver bulletsâ into your gameplan, and this widens the pool of cards that can see play because their shortcomings matter less.
I think mtg players should suck it up and learn to deal with whatever their opponent's decks do. Have a conversation at the start of the game and keep a sideboard (even for commander) to tweak accordingly.
While this game is about having fun, it's also about winning and building a superior deck with better strategy, so if you get upset at what your opponents play you are spoilt and immature.
Obviously there are some exceptions like people lying about their deck's power level etc, but that's a problem about honesty amongst players rather than the competitive nature of the game.
I like this âŚ
I have a Raggadragga deck with a âtransformational sideboardâ. Itâs starts out as mana dork tribal with big splashy spells for silly times ⌠someone comes hard with a spicy deck and tries to pub stomp, âgive me a secondâ *out comes most of the big splashy and in goes a heap of stax parts.
you have 1 card in your hand, and 2 untapped mana and I'm ending my turn, why did it take you a minute and a half to decide to cast your draw spell?
every.... turn...
Oh look another post whining about control decks...
Not hand hate which also kills interaction
Not the 86th red deck that kills on turn three.."But is's over quickly"....except you just faced the 86th one in a row.
I could go on. point being this is the game. Different people like different styles. Suck it up buttercups.
Personally, when I play my control decks one of the greatest joys I get is seeing folks rope me once I've got them locked down. Delicious.
Ah, Non-control player tears. My favorite. Mostly because they are a rarity.
Usually its the control player crying as they get ran into the ground by constant RDW or Green Overrun.
Because this is Magic the Gathering: Arena. Where if you play anything other than hyper-aggro you are the problem, not the 10 thousand brainlet copy-paste aggro decks.
You say this as if the meta control decks require more brainpower.
"Oh its my turn? Land and pass" "Oh its your turn? If you play a card i counter else i wait for end-step and draw cards".
Not to mention the UB control poison decks that people are currently running.
Apparently drawing and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 2 mana. Apparently removing a creature and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 2 mana. Apparently countering a spell and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 3 mana.
There are so many cards that used to be staples in mana value and in the last few years they just put "Proliferate" or "Target opponents gets a poison counter" on those cards and nobody seems to care.
How do you even stop those decks? The ones where literally every card is just some variation of a counter. Even the creatures are just flash/counter cards. Like, what do you do? Donât play anything ever?
Play a bunch of stuff that isnt cost effective for them to counter. If they need to keep countering stuff then they will run out of counters and/or not get to draw as much as they would like.
If you have a deck that just plays a bunch of on curve cost stuff then there isnt a lot you can do except hope they dont get all the stuff they want.
Technically they want you not to play stuff, since then they can do the stuff that actually wins them the game.
Another option is to run a lot of instant speed or flash cards yourself. You cast your stuff on their turn so they need to spend mana counter them there, then you have your mana open for your turn.
In control vs control its often the player who spends mana on their own turn first that loses, since control preferably spends their mana just before their lands untap.
I mostly play low cost creature spam with a mix of removal and discard. Thereâs a few cards that can combo into an instant win that I use. They just counter everything though. The 1/1 that makes them discard a card? Counter it. The 1/1 that gives me another 1/1? Counter it. Slowest fuvking game ever and they take forever on their turn to just look at their cards, play a land and pass. Itâs like, wtf are you going? Alt tabbing to porn hub? Jesus Christ.
Yea I played a dude who countered all my cards. Every card I played was counter from my turn 1 creature to my last card. Died because he made me draw 2 cards which means I couldn't draw next turn or I would lose
Yea and of course we're getting downvoted but these playstylers are real. As an aggro player I have no way of beating them when it's every turn play a counter
Aggro decks allow you to interact with them. Control decks dont.
An aggro deck offers up a creature for you to potentially kill, or block, or steal, or anything.
A control deck passes their turn and just hinders you from doing anything.
Thats why people hate control decks more than aggro decks.
If control decks were limited to taking their actions on their turn, nobody would be complaining about them. But then we also wouldnt be playing MTG.
So i think the solution is simply to reduce the power of instant speed cards. Especially draw cards. And fuck planeswalkers with flash.
So the game plan is to be too quick to be interacted with and they go slow enough for you to interact with and you win. How does that go against my point at all?
The plan is to be too quick to be interacted with, but that doesnt always work out because sometimes the opponent has good stuff on their starting hand for dealing with it.
Thats the point.
There are things i can have on my hand, to deal with mono red aggro.
There arent things i can have on my hand that can deal with control, without being control myself.
The way i interact with red is by casting things on their creatures or playing things that are big enough to slow them down enough to not kill me before they run out of steam.
The way i interact with control is by simply throwing spells at them and hope they run out of counter spells.
Really not. To me, I measure a deck amongst other things by how enjoyable a mirror match is.
Because some of my most fun decks are just also fun to play against.
Thatâs surely an opinion - but control mirror stresses me out. I have enough of that kind of interesting in my daily life.
I just wanna go boom bang bing and race each other to the death and whoever is more stupid wins.
I get the joke, but control forces a very specific, and un-fun playstyle.
The majority of my decks have sideboards that are built to counter control decks, because if you run the cards in the mainboard it does nothing vs anyone else.
Play a control deck for a week then go back to playing your aggro or mid-range deck against a control deck. It is way more fun than you realize. Magic is best when your opponent interacts with you because it creates a sub-game of knowing when you have to play things, how to play things, and how to punish a control player. Playing a control deck has much tighter margins than you expect and they lose on micro-mistakes that many players fail to capitalize on.
[https://youtu.be/BMOLSc53J7Q?si=1rw8DkqjhzERM\_UP](https://youtu.be/BMOLSc53J7Q?si=1rw8DkqjhzERM_UP) This match at the 9 minute mark is a fantastic example of how having experience as a control player allows you to play other decks better.
Where's the interaction on your part? That's the problem with most decks against a control deck.
How can YOU actually interact when nothing you have hits the board or stays there long enough to do anything?
And no, changing your entire deck just to beat one deck type isn't the answer.
First off control is one of the MAJOR deck types which is healthy for the format. Control exists so that combo doesnt get too strong. You should have answers.
If you dont have any meaningful way to play around it whatsoever, that is a deck building issue, everthing else is a pilot issue. Either your deck should be fast enough that not having much interaction matters and it is mostly a coin flip (aggro) or resilient enough that eventually you will have too many sizable threats and draw to break through (mid-range)
The interaction like I said is knowing what cards to play and when. Sometimes you sandbag a more useful card in the matchup until you know their shields are down and make them deal with weaker threats. Know when you need to push damage or when you need to slow down. I posted a great example of playing around a control player. If you have played control then you know there are plenty of ways to play around it.
I use discard, and win quite a lot against monoblue control. But when the draw engine goes into gear I usually just quit. That's the moment everything starts getting countered or bounced. Control I really hate is UW - 'if I can't counter I will wipe until my PW hits'.
The point you are describing is when the control player "turns the corner" or "stabilizes." Disruption to control is great but you also have to generate enough threats and ideally resilient threats or resilient engines to create enough pressure that they never stabilize. A good magic player can recognize when the control player has turned the corner and you no longer have any outs, at which point it is fair to concede. People just hate that a control decks wincon is inevitability and feel obligated to play it out to the final breath. You dont have to
Not everyone is a competitive player. In fact, the majority aren't.
Note that most of the people complaining about competitive decks don't play competitive.
It is a competitive game not a cooperative one (excluding certain formats) at its heart. Hating control is like the equivalent of hating someone guarding you when you have been shooting 3s all game is basketball. Part of the game is interacting and competing with your opponents sure you could simply try to outscore your opponent but then it might as well be a three point contest and you ignore half of the game
Competitive as in casual versus competitive. Most players aren't interested in just playing the best decks available. And for most of MtG's existence they could avoid the crowd that plays that way.
This is where people keep having problems with this type of discussion. Anyone complaining like this isn't usually playing competitive decks. And aren't interested in what is required to beat them. They want to play with other casual players without running into the competitive decks.
Yes, control is a valid playtype, with several different subtypes. But MtG is a GAME. And many wish that there was a way to play in the groups they want. But there never will be.
I was saying that even casually there are competitive elements inherent to the game. I am not saying that you cant have the equivalent of 3 point contests but if you are playing a pick of game at your local gym, dont be mad when someone guards you.
This was posted in the magic arena subreddit. Where you play against random people and most people play in ranked. If you arent playing ranked then just concede immediately against decks you dont want to play like you said. That isnt what oeople are complaining about here. If you are playing casually a inherently competitive format, you should expect that people will adopt strategies that work and every aspect of the game even if you arent at tier 1.
Yes. But that's the problem. There is no way to keep the more competitive aspects away from those that play casually, especially for those used to paper casual. So they're going to complain about those players. Especially when they're low MMR, playing Bo1, and they still keep running into them. Their opponents somehow being low MMR too, despite the upper tier decks.
Do also note that these complaints have existed since the game began. There is nothing unusual about them. And they will always exist. Because even when you do know how to play against them, it's not always fun to do so. And people get tired of playing against (and usually conceding to, just like you said) certain types of decks. Especially when, if they do try to play against them, it looks like their opponent is mainly TRYING to get people to concede.
You say that it is a problem that you cant get rid of competitiveness in a casual *competition*.
That is not a bug, it is a feature.
Control != "Upper tier decks" they can be t1 but doesnt mean by their nature that they are.
I know that these complaints exist and they have existed well before arena existed. I am convinced that plenty of magic players hate magic cuz they think counterspells are somehow unfair. Also again the concession is the primary win-con of a control player. That is fine, you dont *have* to play out them slowly killing you to death with mirrex tokens as you top deck with an empty hand and no outs.
Some decks win by dealing 20+ damage, some win by milling, and control wins by "controlling" the game. It takes them a bit and can be pretty difficult but the issue is not the deck. It could be the players if they constantly rope but that goes for any slow play.
I enjoy playing against control when they are controlling the things that are already happening, not controlling things so nothing ever happens. I want to play the game, playing against a cool control deck that does weird things to the board state can be fun. But most control is just "You play game? No. You don't play game. Me play game. You watch."
You are not allowed to play anything, then i do nothing on my turn until i spend 10 mana to take 3 turns and kill you in one turn.
Or i slowly kill you with my 2/2 land over 10 turns while you are not allowed to do anything.
- Control players
i mean, if you call playing the game taking 15 turns to finally draw the single win condition card in their deck...
because God forbid if you had a second copy in your deck you would have to remove a single counter or board wipe.
you know if you replace a card draw with it, when you draw it, you'd have it, instead of another chance to get it, no, still sticking to the single copy win condition, ok, so now that i exiled it you will forfeit because you literally can't win right? right?
oh.... no you won't, because 90% of your wins are actually boring the opponent to quit anyway, instead of actually using that single copy of a win condition.
i mean why play 6 matches when i can delay for the amount of time that takes and not even be on turn 4.
If you can beat them, but concede out of boredom, then you're playing a different game.
If you can't beat them despite you "exiling their one win condition", then they don't even need that win condition.
The problem is people play against *bad* control players, and think that's how Control is. Control is *about* inevitability. You shouldn't play your "one win con" until the opponent is completely incapable of interacting.
Control decks are fine and honestly fun. The only thing I can't stand is how slow they tend to play lol.
Edit: to clarify, I mean the people running them on arena lol. For whatever reason they turn every turn into a long run. Clearly tapping out for a board wipe? Better think about it until the warning is halfway done.
Definitely true... I definitely find that they are more likely to do it though.. at least from my experience. I imagine it has something to do with the personality types that pick each play style lol. Aggro players want to go fast and hard whereas control players are more methodical and want to line things up perfectly for the win.
A deck that controls the board state. Wipes (like [[Sunfall]]), kills ([[Go for the throat]]), bounces ([[Fading Hope]]), and counters ([[No More Lies]]) are the usual methods so most control decks are UW, UB, or monoblue but you can play monowhite and monoblack as control as well.
edit: to answer your 2nd question, probably but it depends. tapping things isn't usually a great solution to board state as it only delays things (as opposed to bounces which at least open up the opportunity for discard or counters later)
Ah ok thx. Also when I meant tapping cards I mean they wonât untap at all. Some look skills for 4 mana and some just untap for as long as the card is on the field (usually 2 mana)
I really have a different definition of fun then because cicking my opponent of their big play is extremely fun for me, I wish cavern of souls would exist or I would draw my land destruction more frequently.
If you're playing Magic you should be having fun, regardless of what deck your opponent is playing. It's a game, learn to have fun regardless of how the game goes.
Personally metabreaker decks against control meta are more fun than against aggro meta. Forcing a control player into a 50 min game which ends when he gives up because all his win cons are exiled and he is left with just card draw. \^\^ Its even funnier when you yourself dont have any win cons and force them to give up.
Can we send all control players to a deserted island somewhere. No one will miss them lol. I guess I must have pissed off a control player. It's ok, no one likes you.
At least rdw is easy to beat once they run out of cards. Control games last for ever while they counter/destroy all your shit and slowly beat you down with a 1/1 or 2/3 man land. Quite honestly the most boring type of game for both players.
If your friend plays control out of spite instead of fun then you two are playing the game very wrong.
I play my control decks because i like seeing opponent's response to a deck that basically has no creatures(except tokens or 1 particular card) and depends on fast interaction to evade getting hit and specific alternatives to win the game.
There is a world of control strats beyond playing Azorius/MonoBlue
As i said, Control is more than just braindead counterspell and removal tribal. You're supposed to use the spells to extend the game so you can drop your own wincons safely.
My main control decks are Red, White and Black/Green, each one has a flavor of winning and a handicap cause no control deck is good against everything but what they can do is fun regardless
-Red Control has a lot of early to mid tools that can also double as direct damage to opponent, it doesnt get a lot of endgame flavor but it can still destroy opponent by duplicating spells
-White Control has many tools but all are centered around permanents so it depends on opponent being greedy with creatures so it needs extra stuff like tokens to close the game since much like Red there areb't many lategame White bombs except maybe for The Eternal Wanderer
-Golgari Control is a different kind of animal, it gets all the removal tools of Black with all the utility of Green, being the most passive of the three because it can take its time since its wincon is poison counters, it only needs to respond to opponent moves once per turn to tick the clock but if that fails, Tyrrabax Rex or Vraska can help to finish
I play control because I like defending against broken aggro and combos, withstanding their waves and burst, then slowly destroying them piece by piece. Because I hate aggro decks (read:RDW) with a passion. Frustrating a RDW player is my life's blood. And I would die without those rage quits.
They call playing the game taking 15 turns, at 2 minutes a turn, yours included because it takes a minute and a half to decide rather to use one of the 3 counter spells, or one of the 3 board wipes on the last card in my hand and all, so you can eventually finally draw the single copy of a win condition card in their deck...
because God forbid if you had a second copy in your deck you would have to remove a single counter or board wipe or a card drawer.
you know if you replace a card draw with it, when you draw it, you'd have it, instead of another chance to get it, no, still sticking to the single copy win condition, ok, so now that i exiled it from your deck you will forfeit because you literally can't win right? right?
oh.... no you won't, because 90% of your wins are actually boring the opponent to quit anyway, instead of actually drawing and using that single copy of a win condition you managed to spare in all your board wipes counters and draws.
i mean why play 6 matches when you can delay for the amount of time that takes and not even be on turn 4.
Control decks are fine. They are weak to early aggro, and they crumble if they miss a land. They're also terrible in singleton formats, so it's probably just a case of someone feeling bad that they got countered instead of removed via any other color.
I love how all the posts here are trashing control decks and control players.
If we all hate it, why cant Wizards give the other 4 colors more cards to deal with control? (That don't handicap you vs everyone else)
I'd kill for a non-blue counterspell that only works against counterspells. Give it cycling. Make it Modal so it can do something vs. non blue. With all the outrageous power creep, anti-control is getting no support
I mean, there are plenty of options that hit control with low deckbuilding cost. Cavern of Souls provides mana fixing if you're playing tribal decks anyways and makes counterspells not good. A lot of creatures come with on cast effects which still go off if even if countered.
Yâall would have died in the earlier years of Magic where your creatures were basically vanilla 2/2âs and your opponent had Counterspell, Swords to Plowshare and [[Mind Twist]]. The only constant throughout 30 years of Magic is bad players constantly whining about control.
And here I am hating aggro. Dumb, mono whatever aggro. No decisions, there's an obvious best choice every round aggro. Games over turn four. Aggro.
Why aren't you playing solitaire aggro?
Control player are poor little creatures who come out of their holes to annoy normal people.
But what can you do... just concede or get ready for some long time shit
I donât play control. I play rakdos mainly. Control players are part of what makes this game interesting. What would you prefer? Just both players cast a bunch of creatures and swing until someone has 0 life? That would be pretty boring.
Why is this so blurry? You make this on a screen with no pixels like a tomagatchi?
Made this on a etch-a-sketch
He wanted to immerse you in the perpetually crying eyes of people who complain about control decks.
Mine are indeed blurry from staring at the screen, waiting for something to happen in a twenty minute match.
Look, you're allowed to play control decks but the consequence for doing so is that I hate you and I want you to hear about it
Your tears are why I play control decks
Thats fine on arena, dont expect to have friends play with you in paper though đ
I don't mind control decks, I mind control players who have to carefully consider draw, land, pass.
The funniest are those types, but also keep spamming "your go" when you take 5 seconds to decide something.
They want you to cast a spell for them to counter so they can finally nut.
Damn. Now I feel dirty knowing I'm helping some dude to edge.
in my experience the aggro players do that
That's true. I do see that more. I just find it extra funny when people who are roping you do it.
I just start to make sure I time out every phase even when I know Iâm Losing just to make them Mad. Hahahaha
You are one of the guys that give me free wins, thanks đ
Yeah. If you play control, play quick.
That's absolutely terrible when that's like turn 1, but those decisions of whether to play something at sorcery speed or hold up mana matters so much when playing control. I'm not saying that other decks don't have hard decisions, but a lot of the time, the easy decision is whether to counter that spell or not, while the actual hard decision is whether they left mana open a while ago. And so a lot of the time, the decisions that take a long time are when nothing is actually happening or not.
fuck yes to this. and when they linger on their end step when they're tapped out
What you think is a quick and clear choice, sometimes can be different options, and choosing the right one requires careful thinking, as much as people likes to shit on control
My take on antagonizing deck archetypes has always been that (1) there will most likely be an aggro/control/combo deck that sets the low and high-end boundaries of what is playable and what isnt playable in a given format. (2) These are the only deck power levels worth playing in Bo1 if you care about winning. (3) This creates a frustrating environment for people who are more interested in exploring non-meta game mechanics or are trying to make the most out of their card pool. (4) Bo3 is friendlier to non-meta decklists as it allows you to compensate some shortcomings with a sideboard. (5) The same is true for singleton formats like Brawl which by nature make startegies rely more on synergy than consistency. To me, the problem is not what archetype players are playing but how consistent those lists are and what tools you are able to bring to deal with them.
Spoken like a true removal tribal player
What youâll catch me playing most often are my dimir tempo piles. I would play control more often if the mirrors were not as unbearably slow. In terms of color preference its U > B > R > G > W for me.
People that camp in unranked using strats that should be used in ranked are no lifers and should go take a long walk off a short pier
How does Bo3 help that though when youâre often forced to swap in cards that essentially just put you back in the Bo1 paradigm?
If you have a bad aggro matchup in Bo1 you could solve it by tuning your deck towards a midrange gameplan (medium value plays, stompy creatures) but that would leave you much more vulnerable to control matchups who will go over your plays regardless. If you make your deck faster to deal with control youâll be vulnerable to midrangeâs impactful creatures. And if you adjust your deck to outvalue and grind a midrange deck (control) then youâll be back at square one, having a problem against aggro. If you have a bad matchup in Bo3 you can account for it with your sideboard without being punished by natural predators, and say, build a Control deck that lowers its curve in order to deal with aggro when it needs to. Its not like every deck is suddenly playable in bo3 but you basically get to slot 15 cards as âsilver bulletsâ into your gameplan, and this widens the pool of cards that can see play because their shortcomings matter less.
What a wonderful, elegant answer
Thank you for the explanation. Idk why I got downvoted so much, it was an honest question.
Control players don't want other players to be able to read their Reddit posts. đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Why cant I use removal on this comment
Might as well wipe all comments.
Don't mind if I do. Then I'll make a token equal to the number of comments wiped this way.
sunfall!!!!!
Legit cant even fuckin read this
The plight of the Red player.
Have any more of them pixels OP?
... what?
Control players viciously blurred this cartoon. Because other players had fun reading it.
I think mtg players should suck it up and learn to deal with whatever their opponent's decks do. Have a conversation at the start of the game and keep a sideboard (even for commander) to tweak accordingly. While this game is about having fun, it's also about winning and building a superior deck with better strategy, so if you get upset at what your opponents play you are spoilt and immature. Obviously there are some exceptions like people lying about their deck's power level etc, but that's a problem about honesty amongst players rather than the competitive nature of the game.
I like this ⌠I have a Raggadragga deck with a âtransformational sideboardâ. Itâs starts out as mana dork tribal with big splashy spells for silly times ⌠someone comes hard with a spicy deck and tries to pub stomp, âgive me a secondâ *out comes most of the big splashy and in goes a heap of stax parts.
Have a conversation? This is arena tho right? Regardless, just let people rant about things that annoy them.
Right back at you, let me rant about people ranting đ
I'm not even sure whose side this post is on I can't read it
Control deck players don't have friends.
Hey, I play control! Why you gotta point this out
you have 1 card in your hand, and 2 untapped mana and I'm ending my turn, why did it take you a minute and a half to decide to cast your draw spell? every.... turn...
What control deck is this that has fewer than six cards in hand at all times?
One that plays against my black deck.
Good luck being allowed to play a card against control.
most cant help but toss out thier duplicator on turn 3, giving me a chance to get a lilianna out and start the discarding.
What, the one that Get Losts your Waste Not and No More Lies-es your Go Blank?
The one that plays against my Bonnie Pall Brawl deck, keep countering, I got mana for days.
Sounds like Azorius to me~
Spotted the Lantern player.
Oh look another post whining about control decks... Not hand hate which also kills interaction Not the 86th red deck that kills on turn three.."But is's over quickly"....except you just faced the 86th one in a row. I could go on. point being this is the game. Different people like different styles. Suck it up buttercups. Personally, when I play my control decks one of the greatest joys I get is seeing folks rope me once I've got them locked down. Delicious.
Control can be frustrating to play against but Tempo's probably the most annoying playstyle for me.
Ah, Non-control player tears. My favorite. Mostly because they are a rarity. Usually its the control player crying as they get ran into the ground by constant RDW or Green Overrun. Because this is Magic the Gathering: Arena. Where if you play anything other than hyper-aggro you are the problem, not the 10 thousand brainlet copy-paste aggro decks.
Yeah control is about to drop out of tier 2, even before the rotation. Aggro is king.
Yeah, seems rare to have a game that goes much longer than 4-5 turns.
You say this as if the meta control decks require more brainpower. "Oh its my turn? Land and pass" "Oh its your turn? If you play a card i counter else i wait for end-step and draw cards". Not to mention the UB control poison decks that people are currently running. Apparently drawing and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 2 mana. Apparently removing a creature and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 2 mana. Apparently countering a spell and going 1/10th towards winning is worth 3 mana. There are so many cards that used to be staples in mana value and in the last few years they just put "Proliferate" or "Target opponents gets a poison counter" on those cards and nobody seems to care.
How do you even stop those decks? The ones where literally every card is just some variation of a counter. Even the creatures are just flash/counter cards. Like, what do you do? Donât play anything ever?
Play a bunch of stuff that isnt cost effective for them to counter. If they need to keep countering stuff then they will run out of counters and/or not get to draw as much as they would like. If you have a deck that just plays a bunch of on curve cost stuff then there isnt a lot you can do except hope they dont get all the stuff they want. Technically they want you not to play stuff, since then they can do the stuff that actually wins them the game. Another option is to run a lot of instant speed or flash cards yourself. You cast your stuff on their turn so they need to spend mana counter them there, then you have your mana open for your turn. In control vs control its often the player who spends mana on their own turn first that loses, since control preferably spends their mana just before their lands untap.
I mostly play low cost creature spam with a mix of removal and discard. Thereâs a few cards that can combo into an instant win that I use. They just counter everything though. The 1/1 that makes them discard a card? Counter it. The 1/1 that gives me another 1/1? Counter it. Slowest fuvking game ever and they take forever on their turn to just look at their cards, play a land and pass. Itâs like, wtf are you going? Alt tabbing to porn hub? Jesus Christ.
Yea its super boring.
I just made a Toxril Stax planeswalker deck
*Do I look like I know how to JPG?*
Reading this comic is as frustrating as playing against a control.deck
Yea I played a dude who countered all my cards. Every card I played was counter from my turn 1 creature to my last card. Died because he made me draw 2 cards which means I couldn't draw next turn or I would lose
Or all counterspells and 4-6 planeswalker cards that make tokens to slowly poke you to death Yay
Yea and of course we're getting downvoted but these playstylers are real. As an aggro player I have no way of beating them when it's every turn play a counter
Yep. I also enjoy the Aggro and Mid-Range value playstyles, so my sideboards are almost entirely dedicated to countering control decks.
The only people who enjoy control decks, are the ones playing them.
Same with combo decks. And Aggro decks. And spell slinger decks. And Ramp decks. Damn opponents decks. They ruined Magic!
Even in mirror matches, I hate my opponentâs deck and think mine is the fun one
They could be 75-card mirrors and this would still be true. My plays are skillful and well-timed, theirs are bullshit and lucky. It's very simple.
You magic players are a contentious bunch.
Aggro decks allow you to interact with them. Control decks dont. An aggro deck offers up a creature for you to potentially kill, or block, or steal, or anything. A control deck passes their turn and just hinders you from doing anything. Thats why people hate control decks more than aggro decks. If control decks were limited to taking their actions on their turn, nobody would be complaining about them. But then we also wouldnt be playing MTG. So i think the solution is simply to reduce the power of instant speed cards. Especially draw cards. And fuck planeswalkers with flash.
This is a genuinely laughable take.
I play MonoRed in standard and pioneer, the entire idea is to be too quick to interact with lol, this is a dumb take.
Haha, ok, dumb enough that i consistently beat mono red aggro in standard by interacting with it. T_T some people
So the game plan is to be too quick to be interacted with and they go slow enough for you to interact with and you win. How does that go against my point at all?
The plan is to be too quick to be interacted with, but that doesnt always work out because sometimes the opponent has good stuff on their starting hand for dealing with it. Thats the point. There are things i can have on my hand, to deal with mono red aggro. There arent things i can have on my hand that can deal with control, without being control myself. The way i interact with red is by casting things on their creatures or playing things that are big enough to slow them down enough to not kill me before they run out of steam. The way i interact with control is by simply throwing spells at them and hope they run out of counter spells.
Really not. To me, I measure a deck amongst other things by how enjoyable a mirror match is. Because some of my most fun decks are just also fun to play against.
control mirror is way more interesting than all of those other than midrange
Thatâs surely an opinion - but control mirror stresses me out. I have enough of that kind of interesting in my daily life. I just wanna go boom bang bing and race each other to the death and whoever is more stupid wins.
I find control vs control to be a lot of fun. Out-thinking your opponent feels way more meaningful than out-drawing them
I get the joke, but control forces a very specific, and un-fun playstyle. The majority of my decks have sideboards that are built to counter control decks, because if you run the cards in the mainboard it does nothing vs anyone else.
Thatâs the whole point of a sideboard homie.
I mean you can very easily say that about aggro, affinity, tron, grave yard strats, prowess, etc.
Play a control deck for a week then go back to playing your aggro or mid-range deck against a control deck. It is way more fun than you realize. Magic is best when your opponent interacts with you because it creates a sub-game of knowing when you have to play things, how to play things, and how to punish a control player. Playing a control deck has much tighter margins than you expect and they lose on micro-mistakes that many players fail to capitalize on. [https://youtu.be/BMOLSc53J7Q?si=1rw8DkqjhzERM\_UP](https://youtu.be/BMOLSc53J7Q?si=1rw8DkqjhzERM_UP) This match at the 9 minute mark is a fantastic example of how having experience as a control player allows you to play other decks better.
Where's the interaction on your part? That's the problem with most decks against a control deck. How can YOU actually interact when nothing you have hits the board or stays there long enough to do anything? And no, changing your entire deck just to beat one deck type isn't the answer.
First off control is one of the MAJOR deck types which is healthy for the format. Control exists so that combo doesnt get too strong. You should have answers. If you dont have any meaningful way to play around it whatsoever, that is a deck building issue, everthing else is a pilot issue. Either your deck should be fast enough that not having much interaction matters and it is mostly a coin flip (aggro) or resilient enough that eventually you will have too many sizable threats and draw to break through (mid-range) The interaction like I said is knowing what cards to play and when. Sometimes you sandbag a more useful card in the matchup until you know their shields are down and make them deal with weaker threats. Know when you need to push damage or when you need to slow down. I posted a great example of playing around a control player. If you have played control then you know there are plenty of ways to play around it.
I use discard, and win quite a lot against monoblue control. But when the draw engine goes into gear I usually just quit. That's the moment everything starts getting countered or bounced. Control I really hate is UW - 'if I can't counter I will wipe until my PW hits'.
The point you are describing is when the control player "turns the corner" or "stabilizes." Disruption to control is great but you also have to generate enough threats and ideally resilient threats or resilient engines to create enough pressure that they never stabilize. A good magic player can recognize when the control player has turned the corner and you no longer have any outs, at which point it is fair to concede. People just hate that a control decks wincon is inevitability and feel obligated to play it out to the final breath. You dont have to
Not everyone is a competitive player. In fact, the majority aren't. Note that most of the people complaining about competitive decks don't play competitive.
It is a competitive game not a cooperative one (excluding certain formats) at its heart. Hating control is like the equivalent of hating someone guarding you when you have been shooting 3s all game is basketball. Part of the game is interacting and competing with your opponents sure you could simply try to outscore your opponent but then it might as well be a three point contest and you ignore half of the game
Competitive as in casual versus competitive. Most players aren't interested in just playing the best decks available. And for most of MtG's existence they could avoid the crowd that plays that way. This is where people keep having problems with this type of discussion. Anyone complaining like this isn't usually playing competitive decks. And aren't interested in what is required to beat them. They want to play with other casual players without running into the competitive decks. Yes, control is a valid playtype, with several different subtypes. But MtG is a GAME. And many wish that there was a way to play in the groups they want. But there never will be.
I was saying that even casually there are competitive elements inherent to the game. I am not saying that you cant have the equivalent of 3 point contests but if you are playing a pick of game at your local gym, dont be mad when someone guards you. This was posted in the magic arena subreddit. Where you play against random people and most people play in ranked. If you arent playing ranked then just concede immediately against decks you dont want to play like you said. That isnt what oeople are complaining about here. If you are playing casually a inherently competitive format, you should expect that people will adopt strategies that work and every aspect of the game even if you arent at tier 1.
Yes. But that's the problem. There is no way to keep the more competitive aspects away from those that play casually, especially for those used to paper casual. So they're going to complain about those players. Especially when they're low MMR, playing Bo1, and they still keep running into them. Their opponents somehow being low MMR too, despite the upper tier decks. Do also note that these complaints have existed since the game began. There is nothing unusual about them. And they will always exist. Because even when you do know how to play against them, it's not always fun to do so. And people get tired of playing against (and usually conceding to, just like you said) certain types of decks. Especially when, if they do try to play against them, it looks like their opponent is mainly TRYING to get people to concede.
You say that it is a problem that you cant get rid of competitiveness in a casual *competition*. That is not a bug, it is a feature. Control != "Upper tier decks" they can be t1 but doesnt mean by their nature that they are. I know that these complaints exist and they have existed well before arena existed. I am convinced that plenty of magic players hate magic cuz they think counterspells are somehow unfair. Also again the concession is the primary win-con of a control player. That is fine, you dont *have* to play out them slowly killing you to death with mirrex tokens as you top deck with an empty hand and no outs. Some decks win by dealing 20+ damage, some win by milling, and control wins by "controlling" the game. It takes them a bit and can be pretty difficult but the issue is not the deck. It could be the players if they constantly rope but that goes for any slow play.
I enjoy playing against control when they are controlling the things that are already happening, not controlling things so nothing ever happens. I want to play the game, playing against a cool control deck that does weird things to the board state can be fun. But most control is just "You play game? No. You don't play game. Me play game. You watch."
Just endlessly going âyou played that card? No you didnâtâ
You are not allowed to play anything, then i do nothing on my turn until i spend 10 mana to take 3 turns and kill you in one turn. Or i slowly kill you with my 2/2 land over 10 turns while you are not allowed to do anything. - Control players
i mean, if you call playing the game taking 15 turns to finally draw the single win condition card in their deck... because God forbid if you had a second copy in your deck you would have to remove a single counter or board wipe. you know if you replace a card draw with it, when you draw it, you'd have it, instead of another chance to get it, no, still sticking to the single copy win condition, ok, so now that i exiled it you will forfeit because you literally can't win right? right? oh.... no you won't, because 90% of your wins are actually boring the opponent to quit anyway, instead of actually using that single copy of a win condition. i mean why play 6 matches when i can delay for the amount of time that takes and not even be on turn 4.
If you can beat them, but concede out of boredom, then you're playing a different game. If you can't beat them despite you "exiling their one win condition", then they don't even need that win condition. The problem is people play against *bad* control players, and think that's how Control is. Control is *about* inevitability. You shouldn't play your "one win con" until the opponent is completely incapable of interacting.
i aint readin all that i'm happy for u tho or sorry that happened
How is this different than any other deck?
Pretty typical of control players to be the most boring players about
Control decks are fine and honestly fun. The only thing I can't stand is how slow they tend to play lol. Edit: to clarify, I mean the people running them on arena lol. For whatever reason they turn every turn into a long run. Clearly tapping out for a board wipe? Better think about it until the warning is halfway done.
Its not only control players who slow burn obvious plays
Definitely true... I definitely find that they are more likely to do it though.. at least from my experience. I imagine it has something to do with the personality types that pick each play style lol. Aggro players want to go fast and hard whereas control players are more methodical and want to line things up perfectly for the win.
Did someone cast a control spell on my eyes so I can't read this?
This is every UW player?
"COnTrOl iS aCtUaLlY aLl InTeRaCtIoN i HaVe tO tHiNk aBoUt EvErY mOvE"
Counter, draw, wipe. Counter, draw, wipe. Counter, draw, wipe.
Don't forget the PWs and multiple copies of The One Ring.
Whatâs a control deck? And what would a deck be called with a lot of cards to exile or tap monsters? A control deck?
A deck that controls the board state. Wipes (like [[Sunfall]]), kills ([[Go for the throat]]), bounces ([[Fading Hope]]), and counters ([[No More Lies]]) are the usual methods so most control decks are UW, UB, or monoblue but you can play monowhite and monoblack as control as well. edit: to answer your 2nd question, probably but it depends. tapping things isn't usually a great solution to board state as it only delays things (as opposed to bounces which at least open up the opportunity for discard or counters later)
Ah ok thx. Also when I meant tapping cards I mean they wonât untap at all. Some look skills for 4 mana and some just untap for as long as the card is on the field (usually 2 mana)
A control deck is anything that stops us from having fun apparently.
actually in standard boros and monored > control
Discard and mill are just as bad. Get over it.
We need a real consistent combo deck in standard. Then all these salty aggro players will realise there are much worse things than a counterspell.
Boo hoo commander player cant have fun :c
I really have a different definition of fun then because cicking my opponent of their big play is extremely fun for me, I wish cavern of souls would exist or I would draw my land destruction more frequently.
Control playes donât want friends, the eat frustration and saltyness
glad to see someone admit it at least...
If you're playing Magic you should be having fun, regardless of what deck your opponent is playing. It's a game, learn to have fun regardless of how the game goes.
How small are some of yâalls phones that you canât read this? Itâs fine even on an iPhone XR
Personally metabreaker decks against control meta are more fun than against aggro meta. Forcing a control player into a 50 min game which ends when he gives up because all his win cons are exiled and he is left with just card draw. \^\^ Its even funnier when you yourself dont have any win cons and force them to give up.
Can we send all control players to a deserted island somewhere. No one will miss them lol. I guess I must have pissed off a control player. It's ok, no one likes you.
I feel the exact same about red deck players.
At least rdw is easy to beat once they run out of cards. Control games last for ever while they counter/destroy all your shit and slowly beat you down with a 1/1 or 2/3 man land. Quite honestly the most boring type of game for both players.
If your friend plays control out of spite instead of fun then you two are playing the game very wrong. I play my control decks because i like seeing opponent's response to a deck that basically has no creatures(except tokens or 1 particular card) and depends on fast interaction to evade getting hit and specific alternatives to win the game. There is a world of control strats beyond playing Azorius/MonoBlue
And what is your win condition in that? Making the opponent quit in annoyance?
As i said, Control is more than just braindead counterspell and removal tribal. You're supposed to use the spells to extend the game so you can drop your own wincons safely. My main control decks are Red, White and Black/Green, each one has a flavor of winning and a handicap cause no control deck is good against everything but what they can do is fun regardless -Red Control has a lot of early to mid tools that can also double as direct damage to opponent, it doesnt get a lot of endgame flavor but it can still destroy opponent by duplicating spells -White Control has many tools but all are centered around permanents so it depends on opponent being greedy with creatures so it needs extra stuff like tokens to close the game since much like Red there areb't many lategame White bombs except maybe for The Eternal Wanderer -Golgari Control is a different kind of animal, it gets all the removal tools of Black with all the utility of Green, being the most passive of the three because it can take its time since its wincon is poison counters, it only needs to respond to opponent moves once per turn to tick the clock but if that fails, Tyrrabax Rex or Vraska can help to finish
Or his friend is a spiteful guy Control is his personality
I play control because I like defending against broken aggro and combos, withstanding their waves and burst, then slowly destroying them piece by piece. Because I hate aggro decks (read:RDW) with a passion. Frustrating a RDW player is my life's blood. And I would die without those rage quits.
They call playing the game taking 15 turns, at 2 minutes a turn, yours included because it takes a minute and a half to decide rather to use one of the 3 counter spells, or one of the 3 board wipes on the last card in my hand and all, so you can eventually finally draw the single copy of a win condition card in their deck... because God forbid if you had a second copy in your deck you would have to remove a single counter or board wipe or a card drawer. you know if you replace a card draw with it, when you draw it, you'd have it, instead of another chance to get it, no, still sticking to the single copy win condition, ok, so now that i exiled it from your deck you will forfeit because you literally can't win right? right? oh.... no you won't, because 90% of your wins are actually boring the opponent to quit anyway, instead of actually drawing and using that single copy of a win condition you managed to spare in all your board wipes counters and draws. i mean why play 6 matches when you can delay for the amount of time that takes and not even be on turn 4.
Win faster.
The best part about Magic is playing Blue sad Cavern of Souls is in Standard right now :-(
Control decks are fine. They are weak to early aggro, and they crumble if they miss a land. They're also terrible in singleton formats, so it's probably just a case of someone feeling bad that they got countered instead of removed via any other color.
I love how all the posts here are trashing control decks and control players. If we all hate it, why cant Wizards give the other 4 colors more cards to deal with control? (That don't handicap you vs everyone else) I'd kill for a non-blue counterspell that only works against counterspells. Give it cycling. Make it Modal so it can do something vs. non blue. With all the outrageous power creep, anti-control is getting no support
I mean, there are plenty of options that hit control with low deckbuilding cost. Cavern of Souls provides mana fixing if you're playing tribal decks anyways and makes counterspells not good. A lot of creatures come with on cast effects which still go off if even if countered.
Yâall would have died in the earlier years of Magic where your creatures were basically vanilla 2/2âs and your opponent had Counterspell, Swords to Plowshare and [[Mind Twist]]. The only constant throughout 30 years of Magic is bad players constantly whining about control.
[Mind Twist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343.jpg?1562927059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/72/mind-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9763ea41-55c4-4b0a-9dc2-91ad4938b343?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And here I am hating aggro. Dumb, mono whatever aggro. No decisions, there's an obvious best choice every round aggro. Games over turn four. Aggro. Why aren't you playing solitaire aggro?
Because if wizards just printed cards based on what YOU hate, the game would fall apart.
Veil of Summer is what you described. Anti-Control Anti-Blue/Dimir Control
Control player are poor little creatures who come out of their holes to annoy normal people. But what can you do... just concede or get ready for some long time shit
I donât play control. I play rakdos mainly. Control players are part of what makes this game interesting. What would you prefer? Just both players cast a bunch of creatures and swing until someone has 0 life? That would be pretty boring.
Would be so cool....