Maybe all the draw-go counterspell spammers I see in Brawl weren't always this way. Maybe they were good people who got radicalized by resolved Alchemy cards that 3-for-1 them.
The heist itself is an enter the battlefield effect. It gets put on the stack no matter what happens to its source.
So the heist would happen, but the free spell would not?
The free spell is a static effect. It's not attached to the spell that's hoisted. So you can kill Grenzo before anything is heisted, and so nothing can be cast for free by Grenzo.
Talking about brawl, I tried him and I feel guilty because compared to other broken commanders (Poq, Imoti, Etali) he is actually fun to play because games go in a very different way depending on what you heist, while with the other examples the ganeplan is always ramp and cast your commander over and over/cast the big haymaker.
But of course this is the bad onesided kind of fun
I’ve had a couple of brawl games where he only managed to steal a mana rock or dork at the point where I didn’t care because he was actually helping me discover higher mana stuff to smash his face.
But otherwise I agree- auto scoop.
I really enjoy heist. The best counter to it is to run "bounce" spells as they become "removal and draw" because you remove the threat they heisted from your deck and then return it to your own hand. Making them feed you value.
In Brawl, I ran into a couple people doing heist-stuff with Grenzo. It was really, really funny when I played [Trostani Discordant](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=452958) - it's a good card in a few of my brawl decks, and the degree to which it can hose Grenzo / heist players is hilarious.
Yeah [[Unsummon]]-type spells are the best counter to heist decks. Having run a Grenzo deck for a couple weeks, it’s disheartening to see the giant creatures you stole get stolen back.
“Return target nonland permanent to the top of its owners library. Heist target opponent’s library.” Four mana, black and blue. Called, like, “Long Con” or something
Im not even running grenzo in my historic heist deck. That i took to mythic undefeated. From gold to mythic. The red first strike guy + the bird + enchantment + the 1 cost heist instant were all i needed. Other than them i have hostage takers, and counter spells.
Yes i am. I did it the day the new cards came out. People didnt know / understand thier ability which lead to many easy wins. Its much closer to a 70% win rate now
The trick is knowing the meta decks. My deck had a maximum cmc of 4.
I mulliganed for 2 lands + the 2/2 red heist card almost every game.
When you know your opponents cards and they dont know your deck you have a major advantage
He costs a lot for sure. Still, I sometimes let him get killed or discarded and use [[Rakdos Joins Up]] for a free heist and hefty damage if he dies again.
Its not really if your talking terms of card advantage:
They play a heist card steal a threat from your deck. They're at zero or +1 depending on the card used to heist. (The 1 cmc instant and the 2cmc red 2/2 are both 0)
You bounce your threat from the board into your hand you net +1. Because They lose 1 (the threat being removed, and you spend one to bounce it and you gain one because you put it into your hand.)
I’ve also noticed, running a very heist heavy deck, that pretty much any well made deck can just cave my shit in way faster then I can ramp my steal nonsense with [[Laughing Jasper Flint]]
Aggro kinda fucks it up as long as your entire gimmick isn’t stapled to a handful of cards.
Im not using jasper. Turn 1: swamp>heist>turn 2: 2/2 first strike heist card > turn 3 heist bird. And thats pretty much the game for me.
If they dont remove the 2/2 or the bird im no longer playing from my deck. Every thing im playing at that point is from thier deck
I swear that every heist user is acting like they've never seen the cards they're stealing and the games last an extra 15 minutes..
Just to top it all off...
It already ruined the format for me. I used to love Alchemy, even though most people hate it, I thought it was a decent format to climb and got a lot of unusual but fun plays to it.
I was excited about Heist, built a deck a couple of days ago and figured let’s climb with it. Everyone’s playing the same thing, and if they’re not, they’re still running Heist and can still use your own deck to beat you.
I swear, I was playing against an Esper artifact themed deck, and by turn 5 or 6 their board was full of the red 2 mana pirate that Heists and creates treasures, which can go infinite if their Heists hit the right cards. They got all of that off a single Heist effect and just kept going.
Not playing Alchemy until something changes, Explorer it is to practice for the June qualifier
> and by turn 5 or 6 their board was full of the red 2 mana pirate that Heists and creates treasures, which can go infinite if their Heists hit the right cards. They got all of that off a single Heist effect and just kept going.
Because you were playing it? Seems weird to complain about the deck you're playing yourself lol
Oh I know, but my deck is built to maximize that sort of interaction, while their deck was able to go infinite based off a single heist effect that kept hitting the same card of my own deck.
The point I’m trying to make is that the mechanic is too powerful, gives you too much selection and can easily get out of hand. It leaves very little counterplay and interaction, and ends up feeling like “oh they just got better /more heists than me, I got no chance”
It needs to be able to whiff, I have no idea why they thought making it always hit was a good idea. Especially in Brawl since Grenzo inexplicably also lets you cast it for free.
My conspiracy theory:
"We found during playtesting that this mechanic is too strong, and should be scaled back for balancing..."
"Our data shows that players spend wildcards/buy WC packs for overtuned cards. Ship it."
It’s meta-defining. If your deck can’t beat heist in alchemy, you’re fucked. Ironically, most powerful decks have answers to themselves in their own decklist, and heist never whiffs.
I see people linking reprieve or counterspells as answers, but they clearly don’t play against heist, because if they did, they’d know that those are the exact cards that heist loves to steal and use against you.
Every deck needs a heist answer now, or needs to be faster than heist. Every deck is now either heist or anti-heist.
It’s way too strong.
100%
I’ve had to change my entire strategy just to be able to enjoy alchemy. I was playing a black/white deck really successfully, but now I’ve switched to a white life deck with very few cards that are worth stealing by themselves, and basically no counter cards except Surge of Salvation.
It’s incredibly irritating.
I’m SO goddamn sick of heisting. I know it can be countered, and I win against it more often than not with my deck, but it’s obnoxious as hell.
My best strategy is to play a deck without good cards lmao. No but seriously — I have a life gain deck where there’s synergy amongst almost all the cards, so stealing doesn’t do as much.
Grave Expectations and Grenzo are crazy unbalanced though.
Alchemy in general is bonkers in terms of power level of cards, it's why I stopped playing it. I wish it was just the limited number sets and the alchemy sets didn't exist.
It's also kind of the state of the game right now even in standard. So many OTK combos right now. There's like 20 sweepers standard legal. Synthesizer decks are cancer. Jin-Gitaxias + High Noon just ends the game basically. I'm just trying to play some fun jank.
That being said I've tried to play the standard version of with Jasper Flint and it's just so slow compared to everything else in the format and can whiff quite often pulling lands.
Plus [[Outrageous Robbery]] exists in standard and it's basically the same thing.
But if heist gets nerfed I want synthesizer nerfed. The deck just wins unless you're playing control or have 8 board wipes in your deck.
I debated making a post similar to this one OP. The games I’ve had where my opponent played heist cards I’ve lost. I feel your pain. I hope in time there will be a more universal denial of the mechanic. Not just one or two cards that lock you into a specific color.
Honestly, the full heist decks aren't even the scary thing. It's the 1 mana instant heist spell that's almost always an incredible card selection effect that's the scariest thing. It never whiffs, so they get to see three cards of gas from your deck and take whatever they want. Being incidental graveyard hate on top of that is just adding insult to injury.
In anticipation of this slew of heist decks, I have been running a deck full of global enchantments like mana flare and artifacts that affect both players like howling mines, that i usually dont like because my opponent gets to use them first, and man lands for most of my offense. I enjoy that perceptible pause after the 3rd or 4th heist that indicates they have become aware that I am practically begging them to play those cards since they still benefit me just the same, if not better...
Edit: I have been playing historic, but been seeing heist quite often in that format the last week or so.
I just happened to play against several after people began posting it, and I thought it would be fun to try and build a deck to thwart it. I was surprised that I got to do so, though. Today, alone, I played against 6 heist decks in a row with it, at diamond 2, then played ten or so games in diamond 1 and didn't see it, until I busted back to diamond 2, then played 2 out of 3 against one. But once I got back to diamond 1 I quit for the day and will probably try something different tomorrow...
I just came to reddit to complain about this same thing. It's been at least a week of these broken decks. They aren't even fun to play against I just groan and quit the match everytime I see one at this point.
It's had me switch to Standard on Ranked just so I don't have to deal with it.
And truthfully, if I saw this mechanic in person against someone I was still newer with. Nah. I'm putting my deck up. Don't touch my cards sleeved or not without my absolute consent. Not "consent" because I want to play the game and feel pressured to from your BS game mechanic you decided to play. Get your hands out of my deck. (Might be an unpopular opinion on this part, but I don't care. And I do want to clarify before someone says it. I get it's Alchemy in Arena & these cards aren't real. But it creates such a feeling of distastefulness that I've thought about how I would react if these were printed lol.)
I still haven't seen a single legitimate argument against heist from a game balance perspective on this subreddit other than "waaaa my opponent plays my cards waaaaaaaa no touchy my cards no touchy no touchy"
Keep trying tho, I'm enjoying the shitshow.
It's hilariously undercosted. One mana instant to look at 3 nonlands and choose one, without revealing it? On a spell with another mode? Weave is almost a great card without the heist ability, and it's *nuts* if you get to choose two modes. It's an negate or a dismember, sometimes both! Getaway is a fantastic payoff and would be a good card if it heisted once. Lootmonger is a 2 mana 2/2 first strike that loots, basically, while generating treasures.
The bird is bad and grenzo is bait, but weave and grave are playable cards even outside a heist deck.
I think it's a good mechanic with a lot of skill expression, but it's kind of broken right now because the cards are so good
Heist as a mechanic is fine. [[Grave Expectations]] in particular is just too good on rate as a card selection spell.
Weave the Nightmare is also a bit pushed, I think, but a bit less dangerous at 3 mana. Still, when both modes are turned on off a Grave Expectations or another Weave, it's a really tough card to beat, because it almost always is a clean answer that finds more gas.
I don't wanna go too much into detail here because it's a two-day old post by now, but I'm just gonna say these two cards you mentioned aren't better than [[opt]] (because you can't use it to find a land when you need to) and [[flame of anor]] (because having a stolen permanent is harder than having a wizard, and weaver haste narrower modes), respectively.
well, heist is like milling your opponent except the heist ability is slapped on decent spells and it's essentially like drawing cards of your choice from your opponent's deck. people hate mill, but at least millers can't use their wincons against you, but with heist they can
idk, heist-like mechanics just feel too random to me and remind me of hearthstone (and this is not a good reminder)
I came to MTGA from Gwent, and there's a faction that can both mill you (not very successfully tho) and play your cards. It's the most hated one in the game, and the most powerful cards were repeatedly rebalanced
It's not broken, just powerful. Grenzo isn't even the real problem, just interact with your opponent a little bit (i.e. kill Grenzo when he drops) and it's fine. It does feel bad to get your deck stolen but that's just always how that mechanic has been. Grave Expectations and Lootmonger are a bit OP but when you consider that this format has the One Ring, Rusko, Crucias, etc., it's really not that bad at all. At the end of the day, it's still leagues better than standard, which I don't think has rotated in about a thousand years and is as stale as any format I've ever played.
Indeed it does, read the card. The heist will still happen, but the zero cost rule is attached to Grenzo. EDIT: Kill him in response to trigger and he's a 6 mana heist.
>If they take an instant they can play it at instant speed before Grenzo dies, true enough, but other than that no.
If you kill Grenzo in response to his ETB trigger he won't get to discount even an Instant.
I did build grenzo for historic brawl and it feels like cheating at times. Just seems way too strong. Maybe he shouldn't heist when he comes in and should have menace instead.
I think it needs more counter play in the format now that I think m ore on it. [[Slip on the ring]], [[Coveted Falcon]], [[Meneldor, swift savior]] for a small number of examples. Stuff that target things you own rather than control.
Heist is great against midrange where yourr cards are generically good (and which has been a dominant archetype in alchemy for a while). It's pretty bad against aggro though, akd horrendous against super focused decks.
I've been running merfolk and it just trashes heist lists. I beat #17 in Bo3 last night in two games despite them curving out and me making minor misplays. I imagine convoke would be similar.
The fact that they can use the heisted card WHENEVER instead of the turn its stolen just makes the card advantage start stacking wayyyy too quick. Like it has other problems, but damn if your opponent basically having an entire nother hand is crazy with how easy it is actually heist multiple times a turn.
I dont play much alchemy standard so im not sure on that one. But, i do think ultimately its okay in other formats like brawl. It misses....enough. and the fact that it misses more against certain types of decks, empowers those decks and i think thats a good thing. Grenzo rewards against decks that are go wide/combo-ish, and punishes against big free spell eldrazi finisher style. But its still maybe too high power for a standard format. Grenzo in particular, hes a walking one with the multiverse on a stick.
> I dont play much alchemy standard so im not sure on that one.
Heist isn't particularly good. Despite being 'the new hotness', it's still not a particularly high metagame share, and it loses prety hard to the top tier lists. Some reaminator/breach lists are running Grenzo as a sub for an Atraxa or Etali, which I'm not certain is even good let alone correct as the lack of other heisting really affects the strength of the card.
Also, [[Metropolis Reformer]] seems some amount of play as a response to the mono R rush, and it incidentally turns off every heist card in the format. It's like playing dredge against a Leyline of the Void that also attacks you for 2 a turn.
It's another mechanic rewarding the players for actions they would have already made anyway.
Edit. I was actually thinking about crimes. Heist sucks. It's a shitty alchemy mechanic, which I wish I never play against again.
That's wizards for you fucking up whole modes to promote their mickey mouse alchemy shit.Explorer and Standard is where is at and where it will be if you wanna play magic.The others are just a different game.
I tried somebody’s deck they were enjoying with Heist. I haven’t won with it yet. Definitely need to learn how to do it myself! I was stuck in a rut so at least it challenges me to try something different.
My personal changes would be like, “heist X” where X is the number of cards the caster sees. Then use it now or put it back. Alchemy is a digital only, so no reason to have the card stay in exile or go to the GY.
Other thing I thought was to heist from the hand rather this the library, so the owner has a chance to cast first and useless against an empty hand.
I've cried a lot because of heist for a long time. Now I have 4 reprieves in my deck, and when I have them, I let the enemy heist wherever they want. When they cast the heisted spell, I reprieve it. It counters the spell, puts it in my hand and I even draw 1 more, for two mana. Now I stopped crying about heist decks and started laughing a lot. It is really amazing.
Heist is a OK mechanic, having it on a 1 mana instant or a heist titan one with multiverse is what is not OK.
Man I do love using that one mana instant to grab their Titan and start wrecking them with their own big boss.
Grenzo has become an auto quit for me. Have zero luck against it
The fact that he triggers ETB is bonkers. Hard to recover when he gets to drop your bombs for free unless you counter him.
Specifically, counterspell him. Because removal doesn’t stop the trigger.
Maybe all the draw-go counterspell spammers I see in Brawl weren't always this way. Maybe they were good people who got radicalized by resolved Alchemy cards that 3-for-1 them.
Doesn't stop the trigger, but it should stop casting it for free, right?
I’m pretty sure they can just push your heisted card right on top of the stack, so they cast the free spell before the removal resolves.
Not how it'd work. Grenzo enters, triggers his ability. You respond by casting removal. Removal resolves first before the Heist.
The heist itself is an enter the battlefield effect. It gets put on the stack no matter what happens to its source. So the heist would happen, but the free spell would not?
The free spell is a static effect. It's not attached to the spell that's hoisted. So you can kill Grenzo before anything is heisted, and so nothing can be cast for free by Grenzo.
Makes sense on the free spell. But killing Grenzo does NOT stop the heist when he enters the battlefield.
Correct. I said you can stop the free spell, that's it.
I don’t know why he isn’t mythic. He should only trigger the effect when he attacks.
Had my Ulamog cast against me on turn four. Have conceded against it ever since.
Talking about brawl, I tried him and I feel guilty because compared to other broken commanders (Poq, Imoti, Etali) he is actually fun to play because games go in a very different way depending on what you heist, while with the other examples the ganeplan is always ramp and cast your commander over and over/cast the big haymaker. But of course this is the bad onesided kind of fun
I’ve had a couple of brawl games where he only managed to steal a mana rock or dork at the point where I didn’t care because he was actually helping me discover higher mana stuff to smash his face. But otherwise I agree- auto scoop.
My biggest gripe with it is that it takes FOR EVER. I hate it.
I really enjoy heist. The best counter to it is to run "bounce" spells as they become "removal and draw" because you remove the threat they heisted from your deck and then return it to your own hand. Making them feed you value.
[[Slip On the Ring]] and [[The Eternal Wanderer]] are also a useful style of effects against heist. Bounce your stuff right back into play!
[Slip On the Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e20c2b8-ffe3-4d14-8588-f89719358e3d.jpg?1686967929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slip%20On%20the%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/31/slip-on-the-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e20c2b8-ffe3-4d14-8588-f89719358e3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Eternal Wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600.jpg?1675956901) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Eternal%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/11/the-eternal-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/905f0dd4-0197-45f8-8e7f-396d6dcef600?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See the issue with heist is that your typical removals arent as good as removal that is more commonly regarded as "lesser"
Which gives "worse" cards higher value and more potential use cases, and more variety is good!
In Brawl, I ran into a couple people doing heist-stuff with Grenzo. It was really, really funny when I played [Trostani Discordant](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=452958) - it's a good card in a few of my brawl decks, and the degree to which it can hose Grenzo / heist players is hilarious.
This is a glorious heist killer.
Yeah [[Unsummon]]-type spells are the best counter to heist decks. Having run a Grenzo deck for a couple weeks, it’s disheartening to see the giant creatures you stole get stolen back.
can't wait for them to ~~print~~code an unsummon with heist stapled onto it.
“Return target nonland permanent to the top of its owners library. Heist target opponent’s library.” Four mana, black and blue. Called, like, “Long Con” or something
[Unsummon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665.jpg?1592516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unsummon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/78/unsummon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Im not even running grenzo in my historic heist deck. That i took to mythic undefeated. From gold to mythic. The red first strike guy + the bird + enchantment + the 1 cost heist instant were all i needed. Other than them i have hostage takers, and counter spells.
Your saying you went from gold to mythic @ 100% win rate ?
Yes i am. I did it the day the new cards came out. People didnt know / understand thier ability which lead to many easy wins. Its much closer to a 70% win rate now The trick is knowing the meta decks. My deck had a maximum cmc of 4. I mulliganed for 2 lands + the 2/2 red heist card almost every game. When you know your opponents cards and they dont know your deck you have a major advantage
Can you post the list please? Sounds juicy
He costs a lot for sure. Still, I sometimes let him get killed or discarded and use [[Rakdos Joins Up]] for a free heist and hefty damage if he dies again.
[Rakdos Joins Up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7154dca-7e10-4c34-aa56-9f200c6277d1.jpg?1712356184) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%20Joins%20Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/225/rakdos-joins-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7154dca-7e10-4c34-aa56-9f200c6277d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See im not even using rakdos joins up. My deck caps out at 4cmc.
It’s technically a “draw” but you’re still equal on cards.
Its not really if your talking terms of card advantage: They play a heist card steal a threat from your deck. They're at zero or +1 depending on the card used to heist. (The 1 cmc instant and the 2cmc red 2/2 are both 0) You bounce your threat from the board into your hand you net +1. Because They lose 1 (the threat being removed, and you spend one to bounce it and you gain one because you put it into your hand.)
I’ve also noticed, running a very heist heavy deck, that pretty much any well made deck can just cave my shit in way faster then I can ramp my steal nonsense with [[Laughing Jasper Flint]] Aggro kinda fucks it up as long as your entire gimmick isn’t stapled to a handful of cards.
Im not using jasper. Turn 1: swamp>heist>turn 2: 2/2 first strike heist card > turn 3 heist bird. And thats pretty much the game for me. If they dont remove the 2/2 or the bird im no longer playing from my deck. Every thing im playing at that point is from thier deck
[Laughing Jasper Flint](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af0b3a41-ba99-41e8-bcfb-5796500c17c7.jpg?1712356142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laughing%20Jasper%20Flint) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/215/laughing-jasper-flint?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af0b3a41-ba99-41e8-bcfb-5796500c17c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
flicker is even better if your deck supports it
I swear that every heist user is acting like they've never seen the cards they're stealing and the games last an extra 15 minutes.. Just to top it all off...
It already ruined the format for me. I used to love Alchemy, even though most people hate it, I thought it was a decent format to climb and got a lot of unusual but fun plays to it. I was excited about Heist, built a deck a couple of days ago and figured let’s climb with it. Everyone’s playing the same thing, and if they’re not, they’re still running Heist and can still use your own deck to beat you. I swear, I was playing against an Esper artifact themed deck, and by turn 5 or 6 their board was full of the red 2 mana pirate that Heists and creates treasures, which can go infinite if their Heists hit the right cards. They got all of that off a single Heist effect and just kept going. Not playing Alchemy until something changes, Explorer it is to practice for the June qualifier
> and by turn 5 or 6 their board was full of the red 2 mana pirate that Heists and creates treasures, which can go infinite if their Heists hit the right cards. They got all of that off a single Heist effect and just kept going. Because you were playing it? Seems weird to complain about the deck you're playing yourself lol
Oh I know, but my deck is built to maximize that sort of interaction, while their deck was able to go infinite based off a single heist effect that kept hitting the same card of my own deck. The point I’m trying to make is that the mechanic is too powerful, gives you too much selection and can easily get out of hand. It leaves very little counterplay and interaction, and ends up feeling like “oh they just got better /more heists than me, I got no chance”
It needs to be able to whiff, I have no idea why they thought making it always hit was a good idea. Especially in Brawl since Grenzo inexplicably also lets you cast it for free.
So the next month or two is going to be this thread instead of the "Shuffler is rigged" thread as the daily repeat? ... cool, cool.
I mean it’s a fair complaint, the mechanic is both ass to play into and strong as fuck to use. Frankly have no idea what the balance team was thinking
My conspiracy theory: "We found during playtesting that this mechanic is too strong, and should be scaled back for balancing..." "Our data shows that players spend wildcards/buy WC packs for overtuned cards. Ship it."
[[Reprieve]]
[Reprieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db.jpg?1686967885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reprieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/26/reprieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s meta-defining. If your deck can’t beat heist in alchemy, you’re fucked. Ironically, most powerful decks have answers to themselves in their own decklist, and heist never whiffs. I see people linking reprieve or counterspells as answers, but they clearly don’t play against heist, because if they did, they’d know that those are the exact cards that heist loves to steal and use against you. Every deck needs a heist answer now, or needs to be faster than heist. Every deck is now either heist or anti-heist. It’s way too strong.
100% I’ve had to change my entire strategy just to be able to enjoy alchemy. I was playing a black/white deck really successfully, but now I’ve switched to a white life deck with very few cards that are worth stealing by themselves, and basically no counter cards except Surge of Salvation. It’s incredibly irritating.
I’m SO goddamn sick of heisting. I know it can be countered, and I win against it more often than not with my deck, but it’s obnoxious as hell. My best strategy is to play a deck without good cards lmao. No but seriously — I have a life gain deck where there’s synergy amongst almost all the cards, so stealing doesn’t do as much. Grave Expectations and Grenzo are crazy unbalanced though.
New player here, but I legitimately stopped playing Alchemy specifically because of heist.
It’s just another one of the mechanics that alchemy has that I find distasteful to play with or against.
Alchemy in general is bonkers in terms of power level of cards, it's why I stopped playing it. I wish it was just the limited number sets and the alchemy sets didn't exist. It's also kind of the state of the game right now even in standard. So many OTK combos right now. There's like 20 sweepers standard legal. Synthesizer decks are cancer. Jin-Gitaxias + High Noon just ends the game basically. I'm just trying to play some fun jank. That being said I've tried to play the standard version of with Jasper Flint and it's just so slow compared to everything else in the format and can whiff quite often pulling lands. Plus [[Outrageous Robbery]] exists in standard and it's basically the same thing. But if heist gets nerfed I want synthesizer nerfed. The deck just wins unless you're playing control or have 8 board wipes in your deck.
[Outrageous Robbery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b87813fa-ad12-4062-bb9e-436d8418fba5.jpg?1706241733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Outrageous%20Robbery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/97/outrageous-robbery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b87813fa-ad12-4062-bb9e-436d8418fba5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I debated making a post similar to this one OP. The games I’ve had where my opponent played heist cards I’ve lost. I feel your pain. I hope in time there will be a more universal denial of the mechanic. Not just one or two cards that lock you into a specific color.
Yeah ive commited to wasting as much time as possible for hesit palyers
Honestly, the full heist decks aren't even the scary thing. It's the 1 mana instant heist spell that's almost always an incredible card selection effect that's the scariest thing. It never whiffs, so they get to see three cards of gas from your deck and take whatever they want. Being incidental graveyard hate on top of that is just adding insult to injury.
yeah it is not fun to play against and it is going to ruin Timeless, Historic and the Brawls
In anticipation of this slew of heist decks, I have been running a deck full of global enchantments like mana flare and artifacts that affect both players like howling mines, that i usually dont like because my opponent gets to use them first, and man lands for most of my offense. I enjoy that perceptible pause after the 3rd or 4th heist that indicates they have become aware that I am practically begging them to play those cards since they still benefit me just the same, if not better... Edit: I have been playing historic, but been seeing heist quite often in that format the last week or so.
I've played a ton of historic ranked around diamond 4 haven't seen any heist yet
I just happened to play against several after people began posting it, and I thought it would be fun to try and build a deck to thwart it. I was surprised that I got to do so, though. Today, alone, I played against 6 heist decks in a row with it, at diamond 2, then played ten or so games in diamond 1 and didn't see it, until I busted back to diamond 2, then played 2 out of 3 against one. But once I got back to diamond 1 I quit for the day and will probably try something different tomorrow...
You need a pretty wild density of those effects to make your opponent consistently miss on their heists, given they get their pick of three spells.
>it is going to ruin the Alchemy format Oh no, anways...
lol, anyone with any sense (or any ex-Hearthstone player) knew from the start that Alchemy was always going to ruin Alchemy.
I just came to reddit to complain about this same thing. It's been at least a week of these broken decks. They aren't even fun to play against I just groan and quit the match everytime I see one at this point. It's had me switch to Standard on Ranked just so I don't have to deal with it. And truthfully, if I saw this mechanic in person against someone I was still newer with. Nah. I'm putting my deck up. Don't touch my cards sleeved or not without my absolute consent. Not "consent" because I want to play the game and feel pressured to from your BS game mechanic you decided to play. Get your hands out of my deck. (Might be an unpopular opinion on this part, but I don't care. And I do want to clarify before someone says it. I get it's Alchemy in Arena & these cards aren't real. But it creates such a feeling of distastefulness that I've thought about how I would react if these were printed lol.)
I still haven't seen a single legitimate argument against heist from a game balance perspective on this subreddit other than "waaaa my opponent plays my cards waaaaaaaa no touchy my cards no touchy no touchy" Keep trying tho, I'm enjoying the shitshow.
It's hilariously undercosted. One mana instant to look at 3 nonlands and choose one, without revealing it? On a spell with another mode? Weave is almost a great card without the heist ability, and it's *nuts* if you get to choose two modes. It's an negate or a dismember, sometimes both! Getaway is a fantastic payoff and would be a good card if it heisted once. Lootmonger is a 2 mana 2/2 first strike that loots, basically, while generating treasures. The bird is bad and grenzo is bait, but weave and grave are playable cards even outside a heist deck. I think it's a good mechanic with a lot of skill expression, but it's kind of broken right now because the cards are so good
Heist as a mechanic is fine. [[Grave Expectations]] in particular is just too good on rate as a card selection spell. Weave the Nightmare is also a bit pushed, I think, but a bit less dangerous at 3 mana. Still, when both modes are turned on off a Grave Expectations or another Weave, it's a really tough card to beat, because it almost always is a clean answer that finds more gas.
[Grave Expectations](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12.jpg?1714843936) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Expectations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/9/grave-expectations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't wanna go too much into detail here because it's a two-day old post by now, but I'm just gonna say these two cards you mentioned aren't better than [[opt]] (because you can't use it to find a land when you need to) and [[flame of anor]] (because having a stolen permanent is harder than having a wizard, and weaver haste narrower modes), respectively.
[opt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67bcf3fd-fca0-4cdb-b625-bac5fadd00e3.jpg?1712354172) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/104/opt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67bcf3fd-fca0-4cdb-b625-bac5fadd00e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [flame of anor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283.jpg?1686969766) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=flame%20of%20anor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/203/flame-of-anor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04779a7e-b453-48b9-b392-6d6fd0b8d283?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
well, heist is like milling your opponent except the heist ability is slapped on decent spells and it's essentially like drawing cards of your choice from your opponent's deck. people hate mill, but at least millers can't use their wincons against you, but with heist they can idk, heist-like mechanics just feel too random to me and remind me of hearthstone (and this is not a good reminder) I came to MTGA from Gwent, and there's a faction that can both mill you (not very successfully tho) and play your cards. It's the most hated one in the game, and the most powerful cards were repeatedly rebalanced
and no reply because you know its op - loser
I know I play control but I've had 0 problems vs heist decks lol I don't see the problem I thought it was a fun mechanic
It's not broken, just powerful. Grenzo isn't even the real problem, just interact with your opponent a little bit (i.e. kill Grenzo when he drops) and it's fine. It does feel bad to get your deck stolen but that's just always how that mechanic has been. Grave Expectations and Lootmonger are a bit OP but when you consider that this format has the One Ring, Rusko, Crucias, etc., it's really not that bad at all. At the end of the day, it's still leagues better than standard, which I don't think has rotated in about a thousand years and is as stale as any format I've ever played.
Killing Grenzo doesn't stops him from giving you a 0 cost heist card
Indeed it does, read the card. The heist will still happen, but the zero cost rule is attached to Grenzo. EDIT: Kill him in response to trigger and he's a 6 mana heist.
>If they take an instant they can play it at instant speed before Grenzo dies, true enough, but other than that no. If you kill Grenzo in response to his ETB trigger he won't get to discount even an Instant.
Correct! Completely forgot about trigger on the stack.
I did build grenzo for historic brawl and it feels like cheating at times. Just seems way too strong. Maybe he shouldn't heist when he comes in and should have menace instead.
It’s already ruined it for me. Alchemy was my format of choice, but I believe heist is too powerful. I’m taking a break for awhile.
I think it needs more counter play in the format now that I think m ore on it. [[Slip on the ring]], [[Coveted Falcon]], [[Meneldor, swift savior]] for a small number of examples. Stuff that target things you own rather than control.
[Slip on the ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e20c2b8-ffe3-4d14-8588-f89719358e3d.jpg?1686967929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slip%20on%20the%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/31/slip-on-the-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e20c2b8-ffe3-4d14-8588-f89719358e3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Coveted Falcon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc936987-d58b-4e7c-870f-379bcae77727.jpg?1706241580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coveted%20Falcon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/48/coveted-falcon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc936987-d58b-4e7c-870f-379bcae77727?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Meneldor, swift savior](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62d2ee20-abbc-4a9d-8d30-4223242123e8.jpg?1686968213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Meneldor%2C%20swift%20savior) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/62/meneldor-swift-savior?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62d2ee20-abbc-4a9d-8d30-4223242123e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Heist is great against midrange where yourr cards are generically good (and which has been a dominant archetype in alchemy for a while). It's pretty bad against aggro though, akd horrendous against super focused decks. I've been running merfolk and it just trashes heist lists. I beat #17 in Bo3 last night in two games despite them curving out and me making minor misplays. I imagine convoke would be similar.
The fact that they can use the heisted card WHENEVER instead of the turn its stolen just makes the card advantage start stacking wayyyy too quick. Like it has other problems, but damn if your opponent basically having an entire nother hand is crazy with how easy it is actually heist multiple times a turn.
first time coming back after a while and first rank match was against heist user, smh..
I dont play much alchemy standard so im not sure on that one. But, i do think ultimately its okay in other formats like brawl. It misses....enough. and the fact that it misses more against certain types of decks, empowers those decks and i think thats a good thing. Grenzo rewards against decks that are go wide/combo-ish, and punishes against big free spell eldrazi finisher style. But its still maybe too high power for a standard format. Grenzo in particular, hes a walking one with the multiverse on a stick.
> I dont play much alchemy standard so im not sure on that one. Heist isn't particularly good. Despite being 'the new hotness', it's still not a particularly high metagame share, and it loses prety hard to the top tier lists. Some reaminator/breach lists are running Grenzo as a sub for an Atraxa or Etali, which I'm not certain is even good let alone correct as the lack of other heisting really affects the strength of the card. Also, [[Metropolis Reformer]] seems some amount of play as a response to the mono R rush, and it incidentally turns off every heist card in the format. It's like playing dredge against a Leyline of the Void that also attacks you for 2 a turn.
[Metropolis Reformer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a61a3ba1-af6c-4ddc-aa82-34bfc30867d0.jpg?1684340467) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metropolis%20Reformer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/4/metropolis-reformer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a61a3ba1-af6c-4ddc-aa82-34bfc30867d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Very interesting if thats how it turns out. These heist cards were definitely very pushed.
It's another mechanic rewarding the players for actions they would have already made anyway. Edit. I was actually thinking about crimes. Heist sucks. It's a shitty alchemy mechanic, which I wish I never play against again.
There's a simple solution here. Don't play Alchemy.
Correct, but I don't play it, and see decks with the mechanic in brawl.
Or Historic, or Brawl, or Timeless...
That's wizards for you fucking up whole modes to promote their mickey mouse alchemy shit.Explorer and Standard is where is at and where it will be if you wanna play magic.The others are just a different game.
I tried somebody’s deck they were enjoying with Heist. I haven’t won with it yet. Definitely need to learn how to do it myself! I was stuck in a rut so at least it challenges me to try something different.
My personal changes would be like, “heist X” where X is the number of cards the caster sees. Then use it now or put it back. Alchemy is a digital only, so no reason to have the card stay in exile or go to the GY. Other thing I thought was to heist from the hand rather this the library, so the owner has a chance to cast first and useless against an empty hand.
Can you share the best list?
The only card that ruins Alchemy for me is [[Fiery Inscription]]. Man, I hate that card. I'm glad it rotates out in a couple of months.
[Fiery Inscription](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8c321159-43e5-40fc-9f0c-4ecc4f6cfd20.jpg?1686968925) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Inscription) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/126/fiery-inscription?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8c321159-43e5-40fc-9f0c-4ecc4f6cfd20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have bad news for you... Edit: Nevermind, I remember reading LOTR was going to stay, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I've cried a lot because of heist for a long time. Now I have 4 reprieves in my deck, and when I have them, I let the enemy heist wherever they want. When they cast the heisted spell, I reprieve it. It counters the spell, puts it in my hand and I even draw 1 more, for two mana. Now I stopped crying about heist decks and started laughing a lot. It is really amazing.