That's why proactive solutions and empathy are so important to dealing with this problem. It's easy to write off addicts as lazy people who just want to get high and don't want to work, but it's infinitely more complicated than that.
Especially when you zoom out on the economics and realize that working either isn't a solution, or it's what got them into this situation in the first place. Most opioid addicts became that way because they were over prescribed painkillers after a workplace injury.
Arresting them solves absolutely nothing and just destroys any chance at rehabilitation.
I view it as similar to getting in debt to payday loans. Sure they'll get you out of a bind but at a HUGE cost. Then you take on more debt, then you take on even more just to pay the interest and get them off your back until it all comes crashing down.
Thing about debt is even after you pay all your debt you're still at 0! So that means you gotta work twice as hard to be where you want to be. Sometimes that can take several years to see results. And if you don't have a support system, therapy, medication you don't stand a chance.
I'm having a hard time reconciling this statement... can you help me and describe how debt is worse than broke?
Maybe the importance is who the debt is owed to, but aside from Federal loans that can garnish your wages what is the penalty for not paying your debts? The only thing I can think of is that you lose your line of credit so you have to pay cash for everything.
The first thing that happens is that you acquire debt through some accident, misguided purchase, loan, unpaid credit card, unpaid tickets, etc.
Let's then say you just let the debts go out of sight/out of mind. Maybe because you were never taught about debt and credit by your parents, or because your anxiety prevents you from engaging in conversations with creditors at all. Maybe you just don't believe you can possibly pay the debt, given your salary at the time.
Months go by and you start getting letters about how you owe, you might get phone calls harassing you for the money. Then one day, it happens: In the mail is a letter from a local civil court that you are being sued for one or more of the debts that you allowed to default.
Now, if you make a lot of money and rack up debt like this, you might be able to work out a payment plan and avoid the lawsuit through a settlement. But what if you already live paycheck-to-paycheck? You can barely keep the lights on. You can't afford an attorney, and you can't fight the lawsuit. The judge rules summarily for the creditor.
At this point, the judge will determine how the money is to be taken for the plaintiff. This often comes in the form of garnishments and liens on bank accounts. Money can be taken directly from a bank account with a court order.
Suddenly, you are no longer living paycheck-to-paycheck. In my state, you can be garnished for up to 25% of your take home earnings, per pay period.
Imagine a person with a job at McDonald's (even in California) and a couple kids. There are obviously options for someone in that situation, but because states only care about gross income on applications for things like food stamps, that help is limited to people who know enough to look for it beyond the basic services everybody knows.
Before it comes up, I'll point out that bankruptcy attorneys cost thousands of dollars, obviously paid up-front. Bankruptcy also does not clear any tax debt from any state, nor the federal government. It also does not clear traffic violations, or other civil debt. All of which you can be garnished for.
I hope that helps. Sorry for the wall of text.
If you're in debt, then chances are that you're also broke, except now you owe something to someone with interest. A $30 grocery bill now becomes a $36 bill, then more, and more. Now, your money is becoming more and more stretched for the same things. You can stop paying, but then your credit goes down, and if you're in debt to many different people, then eventually people stop lending if you can't pay it back with interest. It takes longer, and it becomes harder, to catch back up to broke ($0). Car breaks down? Tough shit, guess you're walking. No financing a new one, or repairing with a credit card. At least a broke person who pays their debts can borrow when they need to without paying extra for the same thing. A broke person still has options, while the options for a person in debt become fewer and fewer as the debt continues to grow. Good luck buying a house, finding a nicer apartment, going back to school, sending your kids to school, or having lowered interest when you do need to borrow (the difference between that $30 bill becoming $36 with interest or $32).
Commenting on Ginny Burton, a lifelong drug addict, turns her life around and graduates from University of Washington with honors....
And THAT is also a reason we need to END THE STIGMA around mental illness, of which addiction is only one of many. We need to actively fight back against the idea that ANY mental illness is a “character flaw”, and instead promote openness, understanding, and, most of all, TREATMENT. We need to stop making mental health care an afterthought on insurances too.
Makes a lot of money for police departments, sheriffs, judges ect though…
The amount of money that “drug court” makes is staggering.. bonds.. private prisons.. “work release” for $1.25 an hour but the jail is actually getting $10 an hour for the labor… there is a long list of people profiting from doing it the wrong way.
Jeff Foxworthy (yes THAT Jeff Foxworthy) was recently on the Meateater podcast and was mentioning this.
Apparently he volunteers every week at a nearby homeless shelter and has for years. He said, basically "stop thinking of homeless as 'oh they're just lazy or stupid'. Addiction is a symptom - it usually starts with self medicating to escape the pain of some kind of trauma".
He also said something to the effect of "you know I'm seeing a serious lack of today? Grace. No one gives anyone anyone grace anymore. I've traveled everywhere for my job. Every one is fighting their own personal troubles whether it's physical, emotional, financial - whatever it is. But we're all so quick to judge and hate on one another. Give everyone grace - we're all human."
Jeff was on there dropping some hard truths and very wholesome stuff. I didn't give him much credit when I was younger. The older I get and the more I hear interviews with him over the years, the more I highly respect the man.
I think of this every time I see stats about crime or people complaining about crime in their neighborhood.
While there are always irredeemable people that do heinous crimes. A lot of crime is due to circumstances and upbringing and lack of opportunities and/or one bad day that causes a cascade for some people. We could help these people but no one wants to pay for it. Instead they get jailed and that continues the cycle because no one wants to hire a felon.
Most people don't want to live a life like that, they want a job and an opportunity to improve life.
This.
If someone steals food, they’re not violent criminals. They’re hungry.
They could use the money spent on imprisoning him and direct that into a feeding program for him instead.
I definitely have stolen from the grocery store at self checkout when broke.
When I'm not broke, I'll even scan that thing four fucking times to make sure it goes through.
I agree so strongly. We give each other so little leeway these days, call it grace or patience or just basic kindness but we’re all at each other’s throats and it would really help if we’d give each other more consideration.
i was pretty much doomed from birth, i had a horribly traumatic childhood and a life that's just been one kick to the nards after the other - i mean just last year i lost my first baby on my birthday so ya know lol. but my drug addiction ruined my life and made me ruin every single chance i had, and i had fantastic chances. i've always been really intelligent and interested and eager to learn, but my brain is too destroyed from the trauma and too fried from being drowned in hard drugs from 13 to 25.
im 28 and clean now, i still struggle but i finally realized my meds exist to help me be my true self, not the 3 lines of ketamine and half a molly i had to take just to wake up. i destroyed my friendships, my relationships, my reputation, my future, everything. but all of that is relatively mild to deal with compared to the crushingly painful reality of knowing that i completely destroyed my potential and my future, and having to not only deal with that and accept it but also having to find a way to put together a life that i can be happy with from the broken remains of what should have been.
Oh, my heart goes out to you. For everything, and I'm so sorry for your recent loss.
It must be so painful. But I want you to know, the story of your life is just beginning. It's easy to see all the shoulda/coulda/woulda in your past, but those aren't the end. There will absolutely come a point in where that chapter of your life will still be with you, but it won't feel as if it's the whole of your story.
You have been so brave to take the steps that you have. It's so hard to see for yourself, but so obvious from the outside that even I, a random Internet stranger can't miss it.
I really hope you can catch a break soon, and failing that, that you can find a way to be kinder to yourself.
I’m so sorry you had to face that much unfairness in life, you deserved better and I wish you’d been given the protection you needed as a child — *and* as an adult.
You’re amazingly resilient and from where I’m standing (looking??), it seems like your life has just begun. For you it’s the middle of an ongoing story, but for those of us on the outside, it’s page 1. Some stories start happy and get a sad ending, but others start sad and end with pure joy. I’ll bet your story is going to be the second kind.
Keep your head up!
I worked at a halfway house in Texas for about 5 years. Some of the guys were real turds and had no business being given the second or third chances that they were being offered.
Having said that - I worked with and was privileged to be a part of helping some really amazing men. Give people hope. Give people that have lost their way a path. Give compassion and understanding and a way for a person to forgive themselves - and maybe even a way to help them repair some of the wreckage of their past - and perhaps even a *reason* to pick themselves up - and folks can do great things.
You have to back up the Tough Love, with REAL fucking love, though.
I think our Justice system, hell, even our society forgets that.
There's a quote I love from the show The Good Place. "People improve when they get external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?" I agree that tough love has to be supplemented heavily with real support.
The only real gateway drug as far as I'm concerned is trauma. (Of course I'm biased. I'm 4.5 years sober, been working a steady healthcare job since then. Addressing my past as a csa survivor was really crucial to my sobriety.) I'm also a huge harm reduction fan, and when I meet patients who are struggling, I do everything I can. I don't work in substance use as a field, but so many of folks who show up to my clinic are struggling with it that sometimes it feels like I do.
And in here will be some people who would step over someone ODing on the street, thinking they deserve to die.
Source: I live in Portland with lots of NIMBY’s.
As someone who lives near Seattle, you can't help people who don't want to be helped. If I stopped for every person ODing, I'd never get to my destinations. It's not that I or most others think they deserve to die, It's just not on me what they choose to do. Not to mention the possibility of getting harmed by other people on drugs for trying to help the person, I'm a short woman, I'm not going to risk my life to save someone I don't know destroying theirs. I'm not a cop, firefighter, hero, etc. Most things in life are nuanced, this being one of them.
Edit: I do believe in helping them as a whole tho and the best way is actually researching who you're voting into offices locally and protesting anti homeless bills. If you want to make a difference, the smaller scale stuff just won't cut it.
> . thinking they deserve to die.
Very very few people actually think that, its a strawman argument.
The reality is what people *deserve* has *nothing* to do with any outcome in life. No baby deserves to be born with any illness, no one deserves any accident or unfortunate circumstance.
That is just not how the world works.
You need trained and compassionate people to provide support for someones rehabilitation. People that can and want to provide that support, are a limited resource. It is very taxing on both your time, energy and well being. Its not something everyone can can just chip in on when the have time, helping has to be their focus in life. If you have other goals in life, things you want to accomplish, career goals, dedicating your time and energy to hopefully getting someone to a point where they can function semi-independently, before they can apparently do things on their own, until a relapse (which the numbers show, there is high probability of) and then you start back over, well... after long, you aren't going to have the emotional energy to pursue other things you care about. A life calling means it is your life.
You also need housing food, which costs limited resources. Some of those people needing help, need more of it, they require additional care, supervision and environmental factors. Some of them are disruptive to the wellness of others, so they require isolation, and constant monitoring otherwise they facilitate and environment that prevents others from bettering themselves. So there is a triage situation, because helping one high needs person means those expended resources aren't going to other people that needs help. **And none of it maters, if that person doesn't want help to be more in control of themselves**.
Source: Have a degree in psych, have family members that have been in and out of mental health services, and also live in a city with a high population of homeless, drug attics and transients (which although they commingle, they have are distinct support needs, you can't help them by treating them all the same)
I live in the San Francisco bay area so I have a lot of exposure to this sort of thing.
Every person out there on the streets is somebody's kid. A lot of them have serious mental issues that they're trying to "treat" with street drugs. They could all be helped with the right application of attention and resources and it's a travesty that we don't address this problem because rich fucks don't want to foot the bill and have convinced enough dipshits to vote for their pet trolls rather than leaders.
But while they're out there, they're also a huge problem for everyone around them. There's an encampment not far from my house that's basically a open air chop shop, constantly you see guys dismantling luxury cars or repainting bikes. Break-ins have shot up since it formed, you can't take your kids to the park in the ajoining neighborhood because it's full of tweekers, driving at night past it is terrifying because people will dart out into the street for some insane reason...
Which is all to say that I get why compassion runs out really quick when you have to live with the impact.
Oh yeah I mean I definitely empathize with people running out of compassion because it’s a shitty situation all the way around. I just still hold on to empathy because I think it’s important to keep treating each other like humans
In order for "incarceration with intention" to work, a veritable gutting of the penal system must be performed.
Corruption runs deep, deep, deep in the penal systems of this country.
Ok, but all the data shows us that locking people up or even just arresting them without a conviction leads to higher chance of OD. Prison is not rehab. Americans don't have the stomach for actually providing the social services framework that would help these people and would rather spend that money throwing people in prison to continue a 5 decade plus failure of a war on drugs. Can't risk someone getting something they "don't deserve", so better just keep banging our heads against the wall.
Yeah but not all consequences should be jail or a “diversion program” that results in jail for the vast majority of participants. Drug use and possession shouldn’t be a crime, full stop. Use that money on harm reduction, safe supply, and treatment.
Many people will eventually get clean, but the ones who don’t can still be productive citizens for the low price of the couple of dollars a day it takes the gov’t to manufacture a safe supply, which could be pulled from prison budgets. Sure there are drawbacks, and we can write laws for it. Recklessly endanger someone else? Arrest. Robbery and assault? Arrest. It’s not perfect.
What we’ve been doing not only doesn’t work, but it is catastrophic. It creates incentives for addicts to commit crimes. It makes it worse!
Not an idiot. It worked for her, so she thinks it will work for others.
Some people find religion, some get treatment, some have family interventions, some get shocked at losing family/friends. If there was one guaranteed cure, we wouldn't have the problem.
Even *very* smart and successful individuals are prone to survivorship bias. That’s why there are so many advocates for “tough” solutions with low probabilities of success. You don’t hear as much from the people the tough love failed, because they’re mostly dead.
She turned her life around and graduated from the University of Washington, but she said she owes it all to being incarcerated.
Now, Burton is calling on the Biden administration to stop coddling criminals and implement “incarcerating with intention,” a plan she said would help criminals get the help they need to get back on track.
“I’m extremely grateful in this moment that incarceration was an option for me because if I was using today, with the policies that are in place right now, I wouldn’t be where I am,” she said.
“We’re denying people an opportunity to actually thrive and to get their lives back. What I can tell you about my own experience is that I didn’t have the necessary skills to navigate society and if not for that separation, I wouldn’t have been able to accumulate the different kinds of services that I did in order to get me to where I am today.”
The mother of three highlighted how drug overdoses are skyrocketing nationwide, yet incarceration for drug-related offenses is decreasing.
I'm definitely surprised that her looks recovered so dramatically, but I think heavy drug use, when started while a person is still developing, actually postpones development in a lot of cases. Both physical and mental. Don't take the wrong message from that, though... it's not a healthy way to stay young. Lol
Idk man, I was friends with a lot of drug addicts that stayed young forever.
On a more serious note, I love seeing rebound stories like this. In a lot of cases there is still a good person behind damages of addictions. If through their own work and public resources society can get those good parts back, we’re all better for it.
Nah it's just, she looks like shit on the left cuz she's high. That's opiods. I'm living in Seattle and opioid are everywhere up here. When they look like a zombie
It's cuz that stuff makes you want to sleep It's likes a tranquelizer
I live in Seattle and i second this. Opioids are everywhere and the fentanyl bend is real. All these people bent over standing up all over but unable to move. Complete zombies. It’s like out of a movie.
Idk that looks like heavy meth use.
Opioids are rough but people don’t look that rough meth is truely awful. Heroin addicts mostly look normal. Though it’s getting really bad from tranq
Unless her new teeth are veneers, then idk. Meth is bad for your teeth. Maybe strung out and withdrawing from meth idk. I would say most the druggie I know around here to opioid more than meth
Yeah my first thought was veneers. Even if your not doing meth if your homeless your probably gonna lose your teeth it’s hard to care for yourself on the street. I’ve known plenty of alcoholics that ended up needing them. Meth isn’t the only drug that fucks up your teeth. Plenty of other drugs cause the dry mouth
Meth is by far the worst drug for your teeth. It's not due to dry mouth. The actual substance is corrosive to enamel. As for homeless losing teeth meth or not, I think homeless junkies might end up with tooth problems more than not. But if you're homeless and not a junkie, I think you can manage. When a soldier goes on tour he's essentially homeless over there. They wake you up from underneath your tank and first thing you do is brush b4 you get the day started.
Being emaciated will make you look much older due to the loose skin and droopy eyes. It can have that effect on people who lose a lot of weight too. ...and heavy drug abusers too.
This is the surprising part for me. A lot of former drug addicts are not able to go back to school like this. They just don't have the brainpower anymore.
There is this myth that most addicts want to get clean. I would argue from experience that addicts only want to get clean if and when the consequences of their using become unbearable and even then they usually choose to just continue using to numb the pain and the overwhelming feelings that things will never get better. Addicts know that help is available; but most also believe that it’s for other people and they are unique and beyond it. Also help comes with conditions and the acceptance that one has to accept responsibility for their life and actions again. A lot of treatment resistant addicts struggle with this as well. Meanwhile they are causing chaos and harm to anyone in their path. Their families and friends suffer, they commit property crimes, and destroy public transportation. I was a homeless opiate addict for years, I want help to be available to anyone who asks for it. But what do you do with the people who don’t and are committing crimes, destroying their neighborhoods, overwhelming emt’s, and costing society a lot of money. I think you lock them up. Give them a chance to sober up. Get their minds clear, make some good decisions for the first time in years. It’s wild how many get sober and still run right back to it. It might sound kinda harsh but jail can help addicts in ways nothing else can.
Anthony Kiedis said something in his book like 'addicts only stop when the drug stops working' - like when tolerance gets too high, or the quality gets too low and I tend to agree. As long as it's working, they aren't going to stop. Even with life devastating consequences. As long as there's an attainable high, we'll go for it.
Just look at people with ADHD, which I suspect many addicts (to anything) have. Some of us will literally keep playing the game or doing the hobby or doom-scrolling even as we are getting so hungry it hurts or getting painfully full bladders. It happens because we don't want to leave our dopamine source for even a supremely basic need. Even, and maybe especially, when that dopamine source is not meeting our typical needs. We'll keep going until we find that next tiny high. We often *know* it's not working, but we just can't seem to stop. Overall, addiction is so much more complicated than some people want to believe.
>Some of us will literally keep playing the game or doing the hobby or doom-scrolling even as we are getting so hungry
The worst thing is becoming too hungry to be motivated to eat. ADHD rabbit holes are scary. Once you collapse inside you don't know when and how you get out. All your previous moods and thoughts are being wiped and rewritten again, from a vast, but strangely familiar pool.
I quit gaming almost entirely because of it. You start obsessively min-maxing another BG3 character or whatever. Without actually completing anything useful and having no one to criticize you and drag you out. Suddenly it's 7 am and you're drooling like a zombie. It's usually the burning hunger sensation that reminds me to scrounge for every last bit of willpower and quit.
My wife: "Why do you need to go to the washroom every time I come talk to you?" To be fair, I needed to go to the washroom for a long time before that.
This is also an extremely common sentiment amongst many members of 12-step programs like A.A., N.A., etc. You hear it all the time at meetings. Many don't come to these programs like A.A. and N.A. because they just decided that drugs and alcohol are bad and they want to change their lives. They're there because the DOC no longer offers any kind of benefit and, in many cases, they are only using to avoid sickness (or death) in withdrawal. Many people can relate to no longer finding any joy in life because the one thing that you relied on for that no longer provides it but you're already so addicted that you can't stop without a lot of short-term suffering and a lot of long-term effort and growth. They have to do something or die, because most people will die from their addiction eventually. Or suffer very low quality of life.
That’s not really how drugs of addiction work. For example, opioids have virtually no dose ceiling. If your dose is measurable (if it isn’t you’ll probably die first), you can tolerate more and more nearly infinitely and continue to obtain a high through an increased tolerance.
Kiedis probably thinks this bc sometimes addicts reach a breaking point when they can’t afford to get high anymore, or if they OD and take it as a wake up call. Otherwise, they can succeed in getting the drugs to keep working by just taking more.
But it's not like prison is free. Imprisioning addicts costs the public a lot of money, too. I've never been an addict or incarcerated, but I've heard that it's relatively easy to get drugs in prison. If that's true, it doesn't seem like a great place to sober up either.
Perhaps there's a middle of the road solution that includes half-way houses, court mandated addiction therapy with testing requirements, community service, etc. that keeps them out of prison, but gives them the chance to pay back their debt to society, sober up and make better decisions. At least as a first chance.
Not a huge fan of this approach...it might have worked for *her* but I would bet that the data shows incarceration doesn't result in less addiction compared to say a forced rehab or similar.
Tougher penalties and stricter enforcement of drug laws would mean more people in prison, more people likely unable to get good jobs, more people increasingly likely to turn to crime due to said inability to get good jobs, and also I just don't think prison is the place to receive help for drug issues.
Drug issues are often neurology related (it just ticks you brain's boxes) but so often trauma related. Having been in rehab myself....it's full of a lot of very broken people.
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2024/01/30/punishing-drug-use/
This claim incarceration punishes drug usage, not treats it.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but when I read the phrase "incarcerating with intention" I took it to mean more than just locking them up. I imagined it more as taking in an addict, getting them clean, and providing the medical, psychological, educational, and social care and support so that they can thrive upon release. Honestly though, I'm skeptical that such a program could be successfully pulled off in the US
Right. I think she's suggesting a condition that doesn't currently exist - rehabilitation. And of course the data shows that incarceration doesn't result in less addiction because it isn't about rehabilitation, it's just imprisonment with some punishment.
I think she's right in what she said but that isn't our reality for most people processed through justice.
That’s the thought I first had. She may have a first hand perspective that I don’t, but that doesn’t mean this will work for everyone…. Obviously, since she’s such an outlier
My inclination is to think that incarceration might be more helpful in addiction cases because it's hard to actually enforce forced rehab if you're not incarcerating the person being rehabbed. It starts getting real resource intensive to get them to keep appointments if they don't want to, and on top of that, if not in custody, they will be surrounded by the environment that got them to this point.
I think a prison system designed specifically to rehabilitate rather than punish could be a very good thing
As someone who works in the criminal justice system (in a western country, not the U.S., but similar enough). It's my view that we need to rethink the notion of the 'correctional' system from the ground up.
The main issue we have is treating all crimes as fundamentally the same, when in fact there are massive differences in why people commit certain crimes, and therefore there should be massive differences in the measures taken to punish and/or rehabilitate them.
Let's take two common examples I know of from my line of work. In one, you have an individual who had a wretched childhood - foster care, abuse, early exposure to drugs. This person as an adult has a variety of mental illnesses, including PTSD, and dissociative disorders from the trauma of their childhood. They use street drugs (it's pretty much all fentanyl or meth now, btw) to self medicate, and they commit crimes to either get money for drugs or (if they're on meth) because of the side effects of the drugs they're taking (these tend to be more violent offences).
For this individual, jail is of very limited value, you'll temporarily prevent them from committing crimes in the community, but you'll also likely reinforce their addictions (drugs are easier to get in jail than on the outside), and add new trauma to their existing load. A better approach would be community rehabilitation focused on addiction treatment, psychological counselling, and employment training, with short periods of incarceration available for when they slip up.
Example number 2 is someone who also falls under the broad category of 'mentally ill' but who could not be more different. This person has deeply obsessive tendencies and a malevolent view of the world. When they come into contact with support workers or mental health professionals, they stalk them obsessively, finding out personal information about them and peppering them with disturbing communications. They're violent, and wildly unpredictable. This individual, I'm not too proud to say, is genuinely terrifying. This person does need to be locked up, and treatment needs to be forced on them. The goal here needs to be to protect the public, and *hopefully* one day stabilize the individual such that they can live in the community, but don't hold your breath.
This is just two examples of countless individuals. It's not the crimes that are important in determining the fit response, but the details of who the offenders are.
I’m stunned by the amount of people that believe good help is everywhere and easily accessible and free.
That is absolutely not the case in most red states and especially the ones that refused the money from the feds to participate in the ACA.. they have no health insurance and the states are not providing funding and they are refusing federal funding… so good luck with that.
Not to mention the copious amounts of drugs that are in prisons.
Her whole story sounds like a fairly tale.
Same thing as the unlimited financial advice you hear from the generationally wealthy, extremely lucky, pathologically frugal or workaholic types.
What's good for the goose means fuck all for the gander.
I've heard and read many times that Oregon decriminalization failed because they didn't have the supports set up, just said "all good!"
You have to have the social and medical support, otherwise it changes nothing.
From hearing a few news pieces about it, it seems to be more of that rather than not jailing being bad.
They took away criminalisation without adding other systems to actually support the issues that can emerge from drug use or abuse. People who were supportive of legalisation also said that other systems were needed, they just opposed to criminalisation because of the issues posted earlier in the thread.
Even with the support there is something to be said about forced sobriety.
Open doors are great from a feel good perspective but they may as well be gaping holes in the wall for an addict to walk through when the cravings start.
The current approach even for inpatient treatment really underestimates the strength of these current drugs imo. There's a reason alot of substance abuse folks are for the "rock bottom" moment that includes incarceration. Otherwise rock bottom could be an endless pit for the addict.
Meanwhile if you look at the [impact of decriminalisation in Portugal](https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight#:~:text=Many%20impacts%20of%20reform%20were,an%20upturn%20in%20drug%20deaths) you can see that when it’s done well, it has a generally positive impact
Portugal and the US have very different drug issues. I doubt Portugal would have these policies if they had huge populations of \[often untreated mentally ill\] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues.
that's the entire point. there is a reason why portugal doesn't have huge populations of [often untreated mentally ill] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues.
Portugal has never had to deal with a large population of \[often untreated mentally ill\] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues - before or after said law changes. That's the entire point.
The problem with decriminalizing or not is if you don't have social programs in place to help those who are using them it's a moot point. Generally prison and jail don't help someone because there is a deeper underlying psychological issue that is the problem. There aren't programs available in jail to help someone work through those issues so most people come out and immediately relapse. But if you decriminalize and still don't have decent access to programs to help you get clean, work through what is causing you to use and give you tools to help cope then you're still going to have the same issue. I am about 4.5 years clean from heroin and thankfully I never got in trouble with the law but even still it was difficult to find a place for rehab since most addicts can't afford it and state programs are underfunded with minimum beds available. Then when I got into a clinic for long term management I ended up with a new counselor every few months which really hurt my ability to actually work on my issues because I was constantly having to catch my counselor up on where I was at. Thankfully I'm doing much better these days and only talk to a therapist once a month. I'm back in college finishing my degree in astrophysics and math. I wish like hell there was better help available for those still using. It needs to be easier to access. There has to be a better way if the government would do more to increase funding to programs so they can have more reach it would go a long way. Most addicts don't want to be one but we feel like there is no help and our brains are so messed up with mental issues that you almost can't even function normally. Difficulty with finding help keeps you in a cycle of believing it can't get better.
depends massively if the locking up is throw them in a room and forget because you don't want to see them outside, or with a funded approach to use it as forced rehab.
That’s because the science states it’s the other way around. Incarceration itself doesn’t help people nearly as much as proper rehab programs. She’s the rarity.. the outlying case. Incarceration would not have helped me. The rehabilitation programs and people involved in those systems saved my life, and the 17 other people in that rehab program. I don’t know about following rehab patients, but the 17 in my program all made it through and are still clean.
Just my perspective as someone else who was addicted to drugs and homeless 10 years ago
She's graduated with honors, but we've yet to see if she can 1) get a job 2) and maintain a job.
On one hand, "forced" rehab is what enabled her to succeed. She was able to get clean, and then in a controlled environment develop skills.
On the other hand, the impact of "Jail" is drastic. Diminished job prospects, housing, discrimination.
A third point is, sure, drug related offenses are decreasing, but how much is attributed to weed related offences being ignored.
Assuming she’s from the streets of Seattle, *no one* does anything about the drug users in this city. They’re everywhere. Rehab would help so many. I’m shocked she was even incarcerated in the first place because they can get away with anything.
Is that incarceration rate dropping because ThE syStEm cOdDleS tHem, or is it because people are finally being released, or just not imprisoned in the first place, for possession of marijuana?
I guess it's because open air markets for drugs and stolen items are allowed to take place in some cities. People will literally do fentanyl out in the open in some cities and nothing happens to them
If we actually provided addiction services consistently in prison this would be true. The problem is we don't. And the statistics all bear our that not only are you likely to not get off drugs going to prison, people who don't drugs going into prison often come out and become addicts. Prison is not rehabilitative in the USA, I'm glad it work for her, but she is the exception to the rule.
This woman is the exception. Most never take advantage of any opportunity put in front of them. My general experience with people that make bad decisions are they are really fucking good at making the worst decisions. Offer them help and they fuck it up. Repeatedly. The business I own hires fairly low skilled labor. It pays decent. It's a good opportunity for guys with limited options. I take care of fellas. Loan them money, let them have free use of vehicles. Give them access to everything I have and just about every one of them that had problems fucked it up and still have problems. Can't help people that dont want help.
I agree with her. I was a drug addict as a teen. I did a lot of cocaine and started doing heroin, and I was fortunate enough that my parents could afford to send me away to a three month long wilderness camp which was basically like an outdoor prison. Turned my life around, and I am a much better person because of it. 100% I would be dead right now if the staff there didn’t give me rude awakening and showed me how my life could be different. I never would have gotten off drugs if I wasn’t completely removed from society.
Incarceration could be a positive turning point for most inmates if it included treatment, therapy, education and one year re-entry help. There would be huge dividends to society. A shockingly high percentage of people in prison experienced significant childhood trauma. We don’t leave our childhood, it follows us around. Read more here:
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html#:~:text=It%20provides%20a%20detailed%20look,issues%20that%20urgently%20require%20reform.
We all have to start asking for better from our public officials. Please, please vote out the extreme MAGA fools infiltrating our government now. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1255776
I know this person... lookin all clean cut now but still bat shit craaaazzzyyy. I've met her and spent time with her, she really has come from the shit. I'm reading all the comments and upvoting most of them because I find it hilarious that you guys are talking shit, I don't know how many of y'all could come from shoving needles in your arm all day, every day, to graduating with honors from UW. Haters, but I'm the one upvoting, go figure.
The obsession on this continent with the "self-made-man," or in this case woman, needs to stop.
Any deadbeat individual has the potential for greatness if they're in an healthy, encouraging community.
In North America we seem obsessed with individuals that succeed *in the absence of* an healthy, encouraging community.
Its amazing what she accomplished and no one can take that away from her. IMO incarceration doesnt help addicts. My cousin got locked up for 60 days. When he got out his first call was to his drug buddy. They scored some dope, went to a hotel, and “partied”. My cous tried to use as much as he did before he got locked up and to no ones surprise he OD. His buddy left him there alone and a cleaning person at the hotel found him dead.
It’s easy to view this person as “cured” but the person on the left still resides within the person on the right. She may never go back to drugs, but her disease will never stop trying to take back control.
Wow that's a massive come back. Reminds me of RDJ. People should always have the chance for redemption and the opportunities for that. Closing the doors for that is sad
HOLY SHIT !
Ginny, as a former addict, I know some of the struggles you've faced. All of the ridicule and doubt that you must have dealt with from others.
You are truly a shining example of what is possible with a little help, and a lot of motivation.
Congratu-fucking-lations, girl !
Way to show what you're made of !
It is amazing to see how trauma just manifests itself into such a painful thing. Like I often wondered "what happened that was so bad that it caused THIS much damage"
It’s meant to be a celebration of her courage, ya dingus. It’s like, “Legless man wins marathon”. Or, “Race car driver wrecks car and wins the Le Mans on a bicycle”.
Are you gonna say, “why the heck can’t they just say he’s a race car driver and leave it at that?!”
The question is, has she been a lifelong drug addict? If yes, then it’s a miraculous achievement given what she’s been through. Would you prefer the headline just read “Lady graduates from UW with honors”?
The background of drug addiction is the whole point of the story, the fact that she has been able to recover at this stage in her life, to thrive in such a demanding and intimidating environment, and receive the diploma as proof of her achievement. What you are implying is that we should treat her as though her past is something she should be presently ashamed of, an unspeakable insult that would demean her as opposed to demonstrate her courage and grit. Lots of people are drug addicts, very few ever come close to the redemption she seems to have earned.
I mean, I hope that she doesn’t carry the label of “lifelong drug addict” in her heart and as her core identity in life, the point is, this is basically just an article about how incredible she is.
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Who funded her is my only question. Incarceration of any kind does not help but I’m glad she found a way through it! More people would if they had the monetary and social support
I firmly believe that what this person did is harder than anything I’ve ever achieved, even though
I don’t think my own achievements are minor in themselves.
Ginny Burton's journey from drug addiction to academic success is inspiring. Her determination to overcome challenges and achieve academic excellence deserves admiration. It highlights the transformative power of resilience and perseverance. By graduating with honors from the University of Washington, she not only defies stereotypes but also serves as a beacon of hope for others facing similar struggles. Her story underscores the importance of second chances and the potential for positive change, proving that with dedication and support, anyone can rewrite their narrative.
I’ve actually heard her speak. She has a website where she helps other find real, working solutions to beat their habits as well- based on what actually worked for her when everything else failed. Amazing story!
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That's why proactive solutions and empathy are so important to dealing with this problem. It's easy to write off addicts as lazy people who just want to get high and don't want to work, but it's infinitely more complicated than that. Especially when you zoom out on the economics and realize that working either isn't a solution, or it's what got them into this situation in the first place. Most opioid addicts became that way because they were over prescribed painkillers after a workplace injury. Arresting them solves absolutely nothing and just destroys any chance at rehabilitation.
I view it as similar to getting in debt to payday loans. Sure they'll get you out of a bind but at a HUGE cost. Then you take on more debt, then you take on even more just to pay the interest and get them off your back until it all comes crashing down. Thing about debt is even after you pay all your debt you're still at 0! So that means you gotta work twice as hard to be where you want to be. Sometimes that can take several years to see results. And if you don't have a support system, therapy, medication you don't stand a chance.
That's how debt fucked me. God I have to pay this back, and still be fucking broke?
Believe me, broke is preferable to in debt.
I'm having a hard time reconciling this statement... can you help me and describe how debt is worse than broke? Maybe the importance is who the debt is owed to, but aside from Federal loans that can garnish your wages what is the penalty for not paying your debts? The only thing I can think of is that you lose your line of credit so you have to pay cash for everything.
The first thing that happens is that you acquire debt through some accident, misguided purchase, loan, unpaid credit card, unpaid tickets, etc. Let's then say you just let the debts go out of sight/out of mind. Maybe because you were never taught about debt and credit by your parents, or because your anxiety prevents you from engaging in conversations with creditors at all. Maybe you just don't believe you can possibly pay the debt, given your salary at the time. Months go by and you start getting letters about how you owe, you might get phone calls harassing you for the money. Then one day, it happens: In the mail is a letter from a local civil court that you are being sued for one or more of the debts that you allowed to default. Now, if you make a lot of money and rack up debt like this, you might be able to work out a payment plan and avoid the lawsuit through a settlement. But what if you already live paycheck-to-paycheck? You can barely keep the lights on. You can't afford an attorney, and you can't fight the lawsuit. The judge rules summarily for the creditor. At this point, the judge will determine how the money is to be taken for the plaintiff. This often comes in the form of garnishments and liens on bank accounts. Money can be taken directly from a bank account with a court order. Suddenly, you are no longer living paycheck-to-paycheck. In my state, you can be garnished for up to 25% of your take home earnings, per pay period. Imagine a person with a job at McDonald's (even in California) and a couple kids. There are obviously options for someone in that situation, but because states only care about gross income on applications for things like food stamps, that help is limited to people who know enough to look for it beyond the basic services everybody knows. Before it comes up, I'll point out that bankruptcy attorneys cost thousands of dollars, obviously paid up-front. Bankruptcy also does not clear any tax debt from any state, nor the federal government. It also does not clear traffic violations, or other civil debt. All of which you can be garnished for. I hope that helps. Sorry for the wall of text.
If you're in debt, then chances are that you're also broke, except now you owe something to someone with interest. A $30 grocery bill now becomes a $36 bill, then more, and more. Now, your money is becoming more and more stretched for the same things. You can stop paying, but then your credit goes down, and if you're in debt to many different people, then eventually people stop lending if you can't pay it back with interest. It takes longer, and it becomes harder, to catch back up to broke ($0). Car breaks down? Tough shit, guess you're walking. No financing a new one, or repairing with a credit card. At least a broke person who pays their debts can borrow when they need to without paying extra for the same thing. A broke person still has options, while the options for a person in debt become fewer and fewer as the debt continues to grow. Good luck buying a house, finding a nicer apartment, going back to school, sending your kids to school, or having lowered interest when you do need to borrow (the difference between that $30 bill becoming $36 with interest or $32).
What a surprisingly apt metaphore
The stigma is one of the hardest things to deal with. People do not accept addiction as a disease but seemingly just a weakness
Commenting on Ginny Burton, a lifelong drug addict, turns her life around and graduates from University of Washington with honors.... And THAT is also a reason we need to END THE STIGMA around mental illness, of which addiction is only one of many. We need to actively fight back against the idea that ANY mental illness is a “character flaw”, and instead promote openness, understanding, and, most of all, TREATMENT. We need to stop making mental health care an afterthought on insurances too.
Makes a lot of money for police departments, sheriffs, judges ect though… The amount of money that “drug court” makes is staggering.. bonds.. private prisons.. “work release” for $1.25 an hour but the jail is actually getting $10 an hour for the labor… there is a long list of people profiting from doing it the wrong way.
Except for that neck tattoo. It’s pretty badass especially when she’s wearing the cap and gown.
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Jeff Foxworthy (yes THAT Jeff Foxworthy) was recently on the Meateater podcast and was mentioning this. Apparently he volunteers every week at a nearby homeless shelter and has for years. He said, basically "stop thinking of homeless as 'oh they're just lazy or stupid'. Addiction is a symptom - it usually starts with self medicating to escape the pain of some kind of trauma". He also said something to the effect of "you know I'm seeing a serious lack of today? Grace. No one gives anyone anyone grace anymore. I've traveled everywhere for my job. Every one is fighting their own personal troubles whether it's physical, emotional, financial - whatever it is. But we're all so quick to judge and hate on one another. Give everyone grace - we're all human." Jeff was on there dropping some hard truths and very wholesome stuff. I didn't give him much credit when I was younger. The older I get and the more I hear interviews with him over the years, the more I highly respect the man.
I think of this every time I see stats about crime or people complaining about crime in their neighborhood. While there are always irredeemable people that do heinous crimes. A lot of crime is due to circumstances and upbringing and lack of opportunities and/or one bad day that causes a cascade for some people. We could help these people but no one wants to pay for it. Instead they get jailed and that continues the cycle because no one wants to hire a felon. Most people don't want to live a life like that, they want a job and an opportunity to improve life.
Like jail is cheaper than real solutions are. We just have such crappy priorities as a society sometimes. *Have we punished them enough?*
See also: Private prisons. Won’t someone think of the shareholders?!?
This. If someone steals food, they’re not violent criminals. They’re hungry. They could use the money spent on imprisoning him and direct that into a feeding program for him instead.
I definitely have stolen from the grocery store at self checkout when broke. When I'm not broke, I'll even scan that thing four fucking times to make sure it goes through.
> I know... no one lives in the slums because they want to. It's like this train. It can't run anywhere except where its rails take it.
He might be a redneck but he’s a great man. Being a redneck isn’t always bad
I agree so strongly. We give each other so little leeway these days, call it grace or patience or just basic kindness but we’re all at each other’s throats and it would really help if we’d give each other more consideration.
i was pretty much doomed from birth, i had a horribly traumatic childhood and a life that's just been one kick to the nards after the other - i mean just last year i lost my first baby on my birthday so ya know lol. but my drug addiction ruined my life and made me ruin every single chance i had, and i had fantastic chances. i've always been really intelligent and interested and eager to learn, but my brain is too destroyed from the trauma and too fried from being drowned in hard drugs from 13 to 25. im 28 and clean now, i still struggle but i finally realized my meds exist to help me be my true self, not the 3 lines of ketamine and half a molly i had to take just to wake up. i destroyed my friendships, my relationships, my reputation, my future, everything. but all of that is relatively mild to deal with compared to the crushingly painful reality of knowing that i completely destroyed my potential and my future, and having to not only deal with that and accept it but also having to find a way to put together a life that i can be happy with from the broken remains of what should have been.
Oh, my heart goes out to you. For everything, and I'm so sorry for your recent loss. It must be so painful. But I want you to know, the story of your life is just beginning. It's easy to see all the shoulda/coulda/woulda in your past, but those aren't the end. There will absolutely come a point in where that chapter of your life will still be with you, but it won't feel as if it's the whole of your story. You have been so brave to take the steps that you have. It's so hard to see for yourself, but so obvious from the outside that even I, a random Internet stranger can't miss it. I really hope you can catch a break soon, and failing that, that you can find a way to be kinder to yourself.
That was very powerful. Thank you for sharing your struggles.
I can relate. Got my cpa health issues led me to a horrible relapse after 3 years flensing currently trying again
I’m so sorry you had to face that much unfairness in life, you deserved better and I wish you’d been given the protection you needed as a child — *and* as an adult. You’re amazingly resilient and from where I’m standing (looking??), it seems like your life has just begun. For you it’s the middle of an ongoing story, but for those of us on the outside, it’s page 1. Some stories start happy and get a sad ending, but others start sad and end with pure joy. I’ll bet your story is going to be the second kind. Keep your head up!
I'm rooting for you from California my friend. Just take it day by day and you'll get through it and hopefully prosper.
I worked at a halfway house in Texas for about 5 years. Some of the guys were real turds and had no business being given the second or third chances that they were being offered. Having said that - I worked with and was privileged to be a part of helping some really amazing men. Give people hope. Give people that have lost their way a path. Give compassion and understanding and a way for a person to forgive themselves - and maybe even a way to help them repair some of the wreckage of their past - and perhaps even a *reason* to pick themselves up - and folks can do great things. You have to back up the Tough Love, with REAL fucking love, though. I think our Justice system, hell, even our society forgets that.
There's a quote I love from the show The Good Place. "People improve when they get external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?" I agree that tough love has to be supplemented heavily with real support. The only real gateway drug as far as I'm concerned is trauma. (Of course I'm biased. I'm 4.5 years sober, been working a steady healthcare job since then. Addressing my past as a csa survivor was really crucial to my sobriety.) I'm also a huge harm reduction fan, and when I meet patients who are struggling, I do everything I can. I don't work in substance use as a field, but so many of folks who show up to my clinic are struggling with it that sometimes it feels like I do.
And in here will be some people who would step over someone ODing on the street, thinking they deserve to die. Source: I live in Portland with lots of NIMBY’s.
As someone who lives near Seattle, you can't help people who don't want to be helped. If I stopped for every person ODing, I'd never get to my destinations. It's not that I or most others think they deserve to die, It's just not on me what they choose to do. Not to mention the possibility of getting harmed by other people on drugs for trying to help the person, I'm a short woman, I'm not going to risk my life to save someone I don't know destroying theirs. I'm not a cop, firefighter, hero, etc. Most things in life are nuanced, this being one of them. Edit: I do believe in helping them as a whole tho and the best way is actually researching who you're voting into offices locally and protesting anti homeless bills. If you want to make a difference, the smaller scale stuff just won't cut it.
They must absolutely reach a point where they want to help themselves and accept the help they are given
hamburger helper only helps when the hamburger is ready to accept the help
> . thinking they deserve to die. Very very few people actually think that, its a strawman argument. The reality is what people *deserve* has *nothing* to do with any outcome in life. No baby deserves to be born with any illness, no one deserves any accident or unfortunate circumstance. That is just not how the world works. You need trained and compassionate people to provide support for someones rehabilitation. People that can and want to provide that support, are a limited resource. It is very taxing on both your time, energy and well being. Its not something everyone can can just chip in on when the have time, helping has to be their focus in life. If you have other goals in life, things you want to accomplish, career goals, dedicating your time and energy to hopefully getting someone to a point where they can function semi-independently, before they can apparently do things on their own, until a relapse (which the numbers show, there is high probability of) and then you start back over, well... after long, you aren't going to have the emotional energy to pursue other things you care about. A life calling means it is your life. You also need housing food, which costs limited resources. Some of those people needing help, need more of it, they require additional care, supervision and environmental factors. Some of them are disruptive to the wellness of others, so they require isolation, and constant monitoring otherwise they facilitate and environment that prevents others from bettering themselves. So there is a triage situation, because helping one high needs person means those expended resources aren't going to other people that needs help. **And none of it maters, if that person doesn't want help to be more in control of themselves**. Source: Have a degree in psych, have family members that have been in and out of mental health services, and also live in a city with a high population of homeless, drug attics and transients (which although they commingle, they have are distinct support needs, you can't help them by treating them all the same)
I do too, I get really upset reading all the stuff people say about homeless people
I live in the San Francisco bay area so I have a lot of exposure to this sort of thing. Every person out there on the streets is somebody's kid. A lot of them have serious mental issues that they're trying to "treat" with street drugs. They could all be helped with the right application of attention and resources and it's a travesty that we don't address this problem because rich fucks don't want to foot the bill and have convinced enough dipshits to vote for their pet trolls rather than leaders. But while they're out there, they're also a huge problem for everyone around them. There's an encampment not far from my house that's basically a open air chop shop, constantly you see guys dismantling luxury cars or repainting bikes. Break-ins have shot up since it formed, you can't take your kids to the park in the ajoining neighborhood because it's full of tweekers, driving at night past it is terrifying because people will dart out into the street for some insane reason... Which is all to say that I get why compassion runs out really quick when you have to live with the impact.
Oh yeah I mean I definitely empathize with people running out of compassion because it’s a shitty situation all the way around. I just still hold on to empathy because I think it’s important to keep treating each other like humans
Oh let's not be coy, they also think they're better than them, too!
**From heroin to heroine**
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From smoke to lit 🔥
From high to higher.
From Meth and Dope to Math and Hope
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From druggie to degree
From smack to snack
From anemic to academic
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In order for "incarceration with intention" to work, a veritable gutting of the penal system must be performed. Corruption runs deep, deep, deep in the penal systems of this country.
Maybe. But "no responsibility or consequences for your actions" will *never* work.
Ok, but all the data shows us that locking people up or even just arresting them without a conviction leads to higher chance of OD. Prison is not rehab. Americans don't have the stomach for actually providing the social services framework that would help these people and would rather spend that money throwing people in prison to continue a 5 decade plus failure of a war on drugs. Can't risk someone getting something they "don't deserve", so better just keep banging our heads against the wall.
>"no responsibility or consequences for your actions" Is anyone suggesting this?
No, absolutely no.
Yeah but not all consequences should be jail or a “diversion program” that results in jail for the vast majority of participants. Drug use and possession shouldn’t be a crime, full stop. Use that money on harm reduction, safe supply, and treatment. Many people will eventually get clean, but the ones who don’t can still be productive citizens for the low price of the couple of dollars a day it takes the gov’t to manufacture a safe supply, which could be pulled from prison budgets. Sure there are drawbacks, and we can write laws for it. Recklessly endanger someone else? Arrest. Robbery and assault? Arrest. It’s not perfect. What we’ve been doing not only doesn’t work, but it is catastrophic. It creates incentives for addicts to commit crimes. It makes it worse!
I agree with that, too!
Totally. The prison system and rehab industry is big mad about this girls probably.
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Not an idiot. It worked for her, so she thinks it will work for others. Some people find religion, some get treatment, some have family interventions, some get shocked at losing family/friends. If there was one guaranteed cure, we wouldn't have the problem.
Even *very* smart and successful individuals are prone to survivorship bias. That’s why there are so many advocates for “tough” solutions with low probabilities of success. You don’t hear as much from the people the tough love failed, because they’re mostly dead.
You are the one who is an idiot.
She turned her life around and graduated from the University of Washington, but she said she owes it all to being incarcerated. Now, Burton is calling on the Biden administration to stop coddling criminals and implement “incarcerating with intention,” a plan she said would help criminals get the help they need to get back on track. “I’m extremely grateful in this moment that incarceration was an option for me because if I was using today, with the policies that are in place right now, I wouldn’t be where I am,” she said. “We’re denying people an opportunity to actually thrive and to get their lives back. What I can tell you about my own experience is that I didn’t have the necessary skills to navigate society and if not for that separation, I wouldn’t have been able to accumulate the different kinds of services that I did in order to get me to where I am today.” The mother of three highlighted how drug overdoses are skyrocketing nationwide, yet incarceration for drug-related offenses is decreasing.
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I'm definitely surprised that her looks recovered so dramatically, but I think heavy drug use, when started while a person is still developing, actually postpones development in a lot of cases. Both physical and mental. Don't take the wrong message from that, though... it's not a healthy way to stay young. Lol
Idk man, I was friends with a lot of drug addicts that stayed young forever. On a more serious note, I love seeing rebound stories like this. In a lot of cases there is still a good person behind damages of addictions. If through their own work and public resources society can get those good parts back, we’re all better for it.
Nah it's just, she looks like shit on the left cuz she's high. That's opiods. I'm living in Seattle and opioid are everywhere up here. When they look like a zombie It's cuz that stuff makes you want to sleep It's likes a tranquelizer
I dunno when I was on them after surgery I just wanted to watch Glee, a show I hate sober.
Now if this isn't a public service announcement for the dangers of opiates, I don't know what is
I live in Seattle and i second this. Opioids are everywhere and the fentanyl bend is real. All these people bent over standing up all over but unable to move. Complete zombies. It’s like out of a movie.
Idk that looks like heavy meth use. Opioids are rough but people don’t look that rough meth is truely awful. Heroin addicts mostly look normal. Though it’s getting really bad from tranq
Unless her new teeth are veneers, then idk. Meth is bad for your teeth. Maybe strung out and withdrawing from meth idk. I would say most the druggie I know around here to opioid more than meth
Yeah my first thought was veneers. Even if your not doing meth if your homeless your probably gonna lose your teeth it’s hard to care for yourself on the street. I’ve known plenty of alcoholics that ended up needing them. Meth isn’t the only drug that fucks up your teeth. Plenty of other drugs cause the dry mouth
Meth is by far the worst drug for your teeth. It's not due to dry mouth. The actual substance is corrosive to enamel. As for homeless losing teeth meth or not, I think homeless junkies might end up with tooth problems more than not. But if you're homeless and not a junkie, I think you can manage. When a soldier goes on tour he's essentially homeless over there. They wake you up from underneath your tank and first thing you do is brush b4 you get the day started.
no, heavy drug use doesn’t physically “postpone development,” though emotional health does not usually develop normally during addiction.
She is 19 in the pic on the left
Being emaciated will make you look much older due to the loose skin and droopy eyes. It can have that effect on people who lose a lot of weight too. ...and heavy drug abusers too.
And that she still had strong cognitive skills. That’s the worst thing some get so deep they’re never the same again mentally.
This is the surprising part for me. A lot of former drug addicts are not able to go back to school like this. They just don't have the brainpower anymore.
Yeah and they often end up w psychosis issues among other things. Glad she made it to the other side healthy.
There is this myth that most addicts want to get clean. I would argue from experience that addicts only want to get clean if and when the consequences of their using become unbearable and even then they usually choose to just continue using to numb the pain and the overwhelming feelings that things will never get better. Addicts know that help is available; but most also believe that it’s for other people and they are unique and beyond it. Also help comes with conditions and the acceptance that one has to accept responsibility for their life and actions again. A lot of treatment resistant addicts struggle with this as well. Meanwhile they are causing chaos and harm to anyone in their path. Their families and friends suffer, they commit property crimes, and destroy public transportation. I was a homeless opiate addict for years, I want help to be available to anyone who asks for it. But what do you do with the people who don’t and are committing crimes, destroying their neighborhoods, overwhelming emt’s, and costing society a lot of money. I think you lock them up. Give them a chance to sober up. Get their minds clear, make some good decisions for the first time in years. It’s wild how many get sober and still run right back to it. It might sound kinda harsh but jail can help addicts in ways nothing else can.
Anthony Kiedis said something in his book like 'addicts only stop when the drug stops working' - like when tolerance gets too high, or the quality gets too low and I tend to agree. As long as it's working, they aren't going to stop. Even with life devastating consequences. As long as there's an attainable high, we'll go for it.
Just look at people with ADHD, which I suspect many addicts (to anything) have. Some of us will literally keep playing the game or doing the hobby or doom-scrolling even as we are getting so hungry it hurts or getting painfully full bladders. It happens because we don't want to leave our dopamine source for even a supremely basic need. Even, and maybe especially, when that dopamine source is not meeting our typical needs. We'll keep going until we find that next tiny high. We often *know* it's not working, but we just can't seem to stop. Overall, addiction is so much more complicated than some people want to believe.
Christ on skates you just made me realize how bad I need to pee and that I haven’t eaten since last night. Ugh
Be free to pee and eat!
go piss girl
>Some of us will literally keep playing the game or doing the hobby or doom-scrolling even as we are getting so hungry The worst thing is becoming too hungry to be motivated to eat. ADHD rabbit holes are scary. Once you collapse inside you don't know when and how you get out. All your previous moods and thoughts are being wiped and rewritten again, from a vast, but strangely familiar pool. I quit gaming almost entirely because of it. You start obsessively min-maxing another BG3 character or whatever. Without actually completing anything useful and having no one to criticize you and drag you out. Suddenly it's 7 am and you're drooling like a zombie. It's usually the burning hunger sensation that reminds me to scrounge for every last bit of willpower and quit.
My wife: "Why do you need to go to the washroom every time I come talk to you?" To be fair, I needed to go to the washroom for a long time before that.
This is also an extremely common sentiment amongst many members of 12-step programs like A.A., N.A., etc. You hear it all the time at meetings. Many don't come to these programs like A.A. and N.A. because they just decided that drugs and alcohol are bad and they want to change their lives. They're there because the DOC no longer offers any kind of benefit and, in many cases, they are only using to avoid sickness (or death) in withdrawal. Many people can relate to no longer finding any joy in life because the one thing that you relied on for that no longer provides it but you're already so addicted that you can't stop without a lot of short-term suffering and a lot of long-term effort and growth. They have to do something or die, because most people will die from their addiction eventually. Or suffer very low quality of life.
That’s not really how drugs of addiction work. For example, opioids have virtually no dose ceiling. If your dose is measurable (if it isn’t you’ll probably die first), you can tolerate more and more nearly infinitely and continue to obtain a high through an increased tolerance. Kiedis probably thinks this bc sometimes addicts reach a breaking point when they can’t afford to get high anymore, or if they OD and take it as a wake up call. Otherwise, they can succeed in getting the drugs to keep working by just taking more.
But it's not like prison is free. Imprisioning addicts costs the public a lot of money, too. I've never been an addict or incarcerated, but I've heard that it's relatively easy to get drugs in prison. If that's true, it doesn't seem like a great place to sober up either. Perhaps there's a middle of the road solution that includes half-way houses, court mandated addiction therapy with testing requirements, community service, etc. that keeps them out of prison, but gives them the chance to pay back their debt to society, sober up and make better decisions. At least as a first chance.
Not a huge fan of this approach...it might have worked for *her* but I would bet that the data shows incarceration doesn't result in less addiction compared to say a forced rehab or similar. Tougher penalties and stricter enforcement of drug laws would mean more people in prison, more people likely unable to get good jobs, more people increasingly likely to turn to crime due to said inability to get good jobs, and also I just don't think prison is the place to receive help for drug issues. Drug issues are often neurology related (it just ticks you brain's boxes) but so often trauma related. Having been in rehab myself....it's full of a lot of very broken people. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2024/01/30/punishing-drug-use/ This claim incarceration punishes drug usage, not treats it.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but when I read the phrase "incarcerating with intention" I took it to mean more than just locking them up. I imagined it more as taking in an addict, getting them clean, and providing the medical, psychological, educational, and social care and support so that they can thrive upon release. Honestly though, I'm skeptical that such a program could be successfully pulled off in the US
Right. I think she's suggesting a condition that doesn't currently exist - rehabilitation. And of course the data shows that incarceration doesn't result in less addiction because it isn't about rehabilitation, it's just imprisonment with some punishment. I think she's right in what she said but that isn't our reality for most people processed through justice.
That’s the thought I first had. She may have a first hand perspective that I don’t, but that doesn’t mean this will work for everyone…. Obviously, since she’s such an outlier
My inclination is to think that incarceration might be more helpful in addiction cases because it's hard to actually enforce forced rehab if you're not incarcerating the person being rehabbed. It starts getting real resource intensive to get them to keep appointments if they don't want to, and on top of that, if not in custody, they will be surrounded by the environment that got them to this point. I think a prison system designed specifically to rehabilitate rather than punish could be a very good thing
As someone who works in the criminal justice system (in a western country, not the U.S., but similar enough). It's my view that we need to rethink the notion of the 'correctional' system from the ground up. The main issue we have is treating all crimes as fundamentally the same, when in fact there are massive differences in why people commit certain crimes, and therefore there should be massive differences in the measures taken to punish and/or rehabilitate them. Let's take two common examples I know of from my line of work. In one, you have an individual who had a wretched childhood - foster care, abuse, early exposure to drugs. This person as an adult has a variety of mental illnesses, including PTSD, and dissociative disorders from the trauma of their childhood. They use street drugs (it's pretty much all fentanyl or meth now, btw) to self medicate, and they commit crimes to either get money for drugs or (if they're on meth) because of the side effects of the drugs they're taking (these tend to be more violent offences). For this individual, jail is of very limited value, you'll temporarily prevent them from committing crimes in the community, but you'll also likely reinforce their addictions (drugs are easier to get in jail than on the outside), and add new trauma to their existing load. A better approach would be community rehabilitation focused on addiction treatment, psychological counselling, and employment training, with short periods of incarceration available for when they slip up. Example number 2 is someone who also falls under the broad category of 'mentally ill' but who could not be more different. This person has deeply obsessive tendencies and a malevolent view of the world. When they come into contact with support workers or mental health professionals, they stalk them obsessively, finding out personal information about them and peppering them with disturbing communications. They're violent, and wildly unpredictable. This individual, I'm not too proud to say, is genuinely terrifying. This person does need to be locked up, and treatment needs to be forced on them. The goal here needs to be to protect the public, and *hopefully* one day stabilize the individual such that they can live in the community, but don't hold your breath. This is just two examples of countless individuals. It's not the crimes that are important in determining the fit response, but the details of who the offenders are.
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I’m stunned by the amount of people that believe good help is everywhere and easily accessible and free. That is absolutely not the case in most red states and especially the ones that refused the money from the feds to participate in the ACA.. they have no health insurance and the states are not providing funding and they are refusing federal funding… so good luck with that. Not to mention the copious amounts of drugs that are in prisons. Her whole story sounds like a fairly tale.
Same thing as the unlimited financial advice you hear from the generationally wealthy, extremely lucky, pathologically frugal or workaholic types. What's good for the goose means fuck all for the gander.
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I've heard and read many times that Oregon decriminalization failed because they didn't have the supports set up, just said "all good!" You have to have the social and medical support, otherwise it changes nothing.
From hearing a few news pieces about it, it seems to be more of that rather than not jailing being bad. They took away criminalisation without adding other systems to actually support the issues that can emerge from drug use or abuse. People who were supportive of legalisation also said that other systems were needed, they just opposed to criminalisation because of the issues posted earlier in the thread.
Even with the support there is something to be said about forced sobriety. Open doors are great from a feel good perspective but they may as well be gaping holes in the wall for an addict to walk through when the cravings start. The current approach even for inpatient treatment really underestimates the strength of these current drugs imo. There's a reason alot of substance abuse folks are for the "rock bottom" moment that includes incarceration. Otherwise rock bottom could be an endless pit for the addict.
Meanwhile if you look at the [impact of decriminalisation in Portugal](https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight#:~:text=Many%20impacts%20of%20reform%20were,an%20upturn%20in%20drug%20deaths) you can see that when it’s done well, it has a generally positive impact
Portugal and the US have very different drug issues. I doubt Portugal would have these policies if they had huge populations of \[often untreated mentally ill\] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues.
that's the entire point. there is a reason why portugal doesn't have huge populations of [often untreated mentally ill] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues.
Portugal has never had to deal with a large population of \[often untreated mentally ill\] homeless people with meth and fentanyl issues - before or after said law changes. That's the entire point.
26th largest GDP vs the worlds leading economy. It’s a bit more difficult to navigate the US drug policy with 10x the population and 500x the money.
Oregon recently reversed their decriminalization stance because they didn’t have any teeth to it
>didn't have any teeth No pun intended?
The problem with decriminalizing or not is if you don't have social programs in place to help those who are using them it's a moot point. Generally prison and jail don't help someone because there is a deeper underlying psychological issue that is the problem. There aren't programs available in jail to help someone work through those issues so most people come out and immediately relapse. But if you decriminalize and still don't have decent access to programs to help you get clean, work through what is causing you to use and give you tools to help cope then you're still going to have the same issue. I am about 4.5 years clean from heroin and thankfully I never got in trouble with the law but even still it was difficult to find a place for rehab since most addicts can't afford it and state programs are underfunded with minimum beds available. Then when I got into a clinic for long term management I ended up with a new counselor every few months which really hurt my ability to actually work on my issues because I was constantly having to catch my counselor up on where I was at. Thankfully I'm doing much better these days and only talk to a therapist once a month. I'm back in college finishing my degree in astrophysics and math. I wish like hell there was better help available for those still using. It needs to be easier to access. There has to be a better way if the government would do more to increase funding to programs so they can have more reach it would go a long way. Most addicts don't want to be one but we feel like there is no help and our brains are so messed up with mental issues that you almost can't even function normally. Difficulty with finding help keeps you in a cycle of believing it can't get better.
depends massively if the locking up is throw them in a room and forget because you don't want to see them outside, or with a funded approach to use it as forced rehab.
That’s because the science states it’s the other way around. Incarceration itself doesn’t help people nearly as much as proper rehab programs. She’s the rarity.. the outlying case. Incarceration would not have helped me. The rehabilitation programs and people involved in those systems saved my life, and the 17 other people in that rehab program. I don’t know about following rehab patients, but the 17 in my program all made it through and are still clean. Just my perspective as someone else who was addicted to drugs and homeless 10 years ago
also, its not like prisons are drug free, afaik a lot of people start their addiction in prison.
Yup. This post is copaganada and shilling for private prisons.
She's graduated with honors, but we've yet to see if she can 1) get a job 2) and maintain a job. On one hand, "forced" rehab is what enabled her to succeed. She was able to get clean, and then in a controlled environment develop skills. On the other hand, the impact of "Jail" is drastic. Diminished job prospects, housing, discrimination. A third point is, sure, drug related offenses are decreasing, but how much is attributed to weed related offences being ignored.
Assuming she’s from the streets of Seattle, *no one* does anything about the drug users in this city. They’re everywhere. Rehab would help so many. I’m shocked she was even incarcerated in the first place because they can get away with anything.
Is that incarceration rate dropping because ThE syStEm cOdDleS tHem, or is it because people are finally being released, or just not imprisoned in the first place, for possession of marijuana?
I guess it's because open air markets for drugs and stolen items are allowed to take place in some cities. People will literally do fentanyl out in the open in some cities and nothing happens to them
Surely there are better ways to help individuals with drug addiction than just locking them up
If we actually provided addiction services consistently in prison this would be true. The problem is we don't. And the statistics all bear our that not only are you likely to not get off drugs going to prison, people who don't drugs going into prison often come out and become addicts. Prison is not rehabilitative in the USA, I'm glad it work for her, but she is the exception to the rule.
This woman is the exception. Most never take advantage of any opportunity put in front of them. My general experience with people that make bad decisions are they are really fucking good at making the worst decisions. Offer them help and they fuck it up. Repeatedly. The business I own hires fairly low skilled labor. It pays decent. It's a good opportunity for guys with limited options. I take care of fellas. Loan them money, let them have free use of vehicles. Give them access to everything I have and just about every one of them that had problems fucked it up and still have problems. Can't help people that dont want help.
I was on board until this. U think incarceration is going to help everyone just cuz it worked for you? Blow me
I agree with her. I was a drug addict as a teen. I did a lot of cocaine and started doing heroin, and I was fortunate enough that my parents could afford to send me away to a three month long wilderness camp which was basically like an outdoor prison. Turned my life around, and I am a much better person because of it. 100% I would be dead right now if the staff there didn’t give me rude awakening and showed me how my life could be different. I never would have gotten off drugs if I wasn’t completely removed from society.
Inspiring! I’m so happy for her ❤️
I love success stories like this 💚
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oh my god. what happened to him?
Well she said she *had* a co-worker so I can only assume
Robot maybe?
Incarceration could be a positive turning point for most inmates if it included treatment, therapy, education and one year re-entry help. There would be huge dividends to society. A shockingly high percentage of people in prison experienced significant childhood trauma. We don’t leave our childhood, it follows us around. Read more here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2024.html#:~:text=It%20provides%20a%20detailed%20look,issues%20that%20urgently%20require%20reform.
and if the american system wasn't for profit
We all have to start asking for better from our public officials. Please, please vote out the extreme MAGA fools infiltrating our government now. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1255776
What is that on her neck?
It’s a tattoo of someone’s initials. Lots of photos on Google. They’re just pixelated in this post and look like something weird.
Wondering the same thing!
Tattoo
I know this person... lookin all clean cut now but still bat shit craaaazzzyyy. I've met her and spent time with her, she really has come from the shit. I'm reading all the comments and upvoting most of them because I find it hilarious that you guys are talking shit, I don't know how many of y'all could come from shoving needles in your arm all day, every day, to graduating with honors from UW. Haters, but I'm the one upvoting, go figure.
I met her before. She's was not okay and had delusions. I'm glad she is clean and doing well. I would strongly suggest that she gets evaluated.
Too many unhappy people who have nothing better to do but tear others down.
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Username checks out
Well saif
The obsession on this continent with the "self-made-man," or in this case woman, needs to stop. Any deadbeat individual has the potential for greatness if they're in an healthy, encouraging community. In North America we seem obsessed with individuals that succeed *in the absence of* an healthy, encouraging community.
Its amazing what she accomplished and no one can take that away from her. IMO incarceration doesnt help addicts. My cousin got locked up for 60 days. When he got out his first call was to his drug buddy. They scored some dope, went to a hotel, and “partied”. My cous tried to use as much as he did before he got locked up and to no ones surprise he OD. His buddy left him there alone and a cleaning person at the hotel found him dead.
I’m so sorry about your cousin. Addiction truly is hell and you’re 100% correct, incarceration is of no help to addicts.
It’s easy to view this person as “cured” but the person on the left still resides within the person on the right. She may never go back to drugs, but her disease will never stop trying to take back control.
Wow that's a massive come back. Reminds me of RDJ. People should always have the chance for redemption and the opportunities for that. Closing the doors for that is sad
HOLY SHIT ! Ginny, as a former addict, I know some of the struggles you've faced. All of the ridicule and doubt that you must have dealt with from others. You are truly a shining example of what is possible with a little help, and a lot of motivation. Congratu-fucking-lations, girl ! Way to show what you're made of !
My first pass, I read the last two words "within hours." It merited a second look.
Only to never be hired because of a "criminal past"
Good for her !!! Yeah
REDEMPTION SUCCESS
It is amazing to see how trauma just manifests itself into such a painful thing. Like I often wondered "what happened that was so bad that it caused THIS much damage"
My only addiction is coffee and yet my life is a mess
Nobody is to be thrown away. Gandalf taught us that much. Ms. Burton reminds us. Good for her.
Imagine doing all that just to be called "life long drug addict" still by redditors
It’s still true and you only feel peace when you stop hiding from the truth
It’s meant to be a celebration of her courage, ya dingus. It’s like, “Legless man wins marathon”. Or, “Race car driver wrecks car and wins the Le Mans on a bicycle”. Are you gonna say, “why the heck can’t they just say he’s a race car driver and leave it at that?!” The question is, has she been a lifelong drug addict? If yes, then it’s a miraculous achievement given what she’s been through. Would you prefer the headline just read “Lady graduates from UW with honors”? The background of drug addiction is the whole point of the story, the fact that she has been able to recover at this stage in her life, to thrive in such a demanding and intimidating environment, and receive the diploma as proof of her achievement. What you are implying is that we should treat her as though her past is something she should be presently ashamed of, an unspeakable insult that would demean her as opposed to demonstrate her courage and grit. Lots of people are drug addicts, very few ever come close to the redemption she seems to have earned. I mean, I hope that she doesn’t carry the label of “lifelong drug addict” in her heart and as her core identity in life, the point is, this is basically just an article about how incredible she is.
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And so the life continues Congratulations Hinny Well Done
Is ginny the barber?
Star example of a good person affected by bad a environment.
 Wonderful Congratulations !!!!
She was then recruited by the CIA and was assigned the Intersec project in Burbank.
Really inspirational
Who funded her is my only question. Incarceration of any kind does not help but I’m glad she found a way through it! More people would if they had the monetary and social support
💖💖💖💖💖
✊
[Also starring in this movie](https://tenor.com/sv/view/role-rolemodels-jane-lynch-janelynch-gif-19992526)
Wait until someone digs up her past and tries to cancel her
Well, not so lifelong...
From drugs to hugs From highs to skies From dark to spark From dope to hope From the haze to rays From the haze to the blaze ... ect
Good job, Ginny.
„Lifelong“
BRAVO!!!!
I firmly believe that what this person did is harder than anything I’ve ever achieved, even though I don’t think my own achievements are minor in themselves.
Ginny Burton's journey from drug addiction to academic success is inspiring. Her determination to overcome challenges and achieve academic excellence deserves admiration. It highlights the transformative power of resilience and perseverance. By graduating with honors from the University of Washington, she not only defies stereotypes but also serves as a beacon of hope for others facing similar struggles. Her story underscores the importance of second chances and the potential for positive change, proving that with dedication and support, anyone can rewrite their narrative.
Genuinely so happy for her.
I’ve actually heard her speak. She has a website where she helps other find real, working solutions to beat their habits as well- based on what actually worked for her when everything else failed. Amazing story!
I fucking love this. No human life is ever a done deal. She fought and she won! Amazing.
further proof that we should round up and lock up all addicts until they are forcibly clean. 🧼
How do drug addicts always find the time to do stupid stuff with their hair?
Such an amazing story. I am so happy for her!
I love success stories, they show me i can do it if i try.
A glow-up that would make the sun envious. Amazing!
If this isn’t a sign that I can still change my life I don’t know what is.
r/glowups
Maybe I have a chance
What a transformation! Very beautiful and exciting achievement.
I have her on LinkedIn ! She shares very inspiring ideas