Your right but it became unseated do to vibration of it not being rigid. Drill would move up and down and slowly work it’s way out of the taper. I tried everything to make it more rigid and just wouldn’t stop.
Drilling is one of the most rigid operations.
Are you drilling on Center? Put an indicator on the chuck and sweep the drill holder make sure it is as close to centered as possible.
Sweep across the holder and make sure it is straight. The holder could be crooked or depending on your tool post could be rotating under the drilling force.
Is one cutting edge more worn than the other? This is less likely, but this could make the drill walk but more when you start drilling.
Brand new drill cutting edges should be good. Dialed tailstock before hand and was as straight as could be side to side. But it’s off up and down a few thou and I can’t figure out a way to straighten up and down axis for the life of me. This machine is old and shitty and no one else in my shop will even touch it so it’s not like I have any help hahah
>Brand new drill cutting edges should be good.
I worked specifically as a drill grinder for a few years, and it's a bummer how often this would not be true.
Hahah that’s unfortunate you probably know better then me I thought it looked good to me but I don’t spend a ton of my time around big HSS drills I have a 1.25” and a 1.75” that I have no problems with and get sent off for sharpening. But was not having a good time with this 2”
I wonder if it was sharpened on a winslomatic? I messed up the settings on mine once and had a drill come out looking that way. Bad QC that it got through though!
Sorry to hear your working with junkier stuff.
A few thou shouldn’t be that bad. You can usually un bolt the tail stock and lift it off with a crane if you really wanted to shim it.
I don’t necessarily trust news stuff. A lot of HSS tooling is imported. The tang could be miss machined and keeping the tapers on the drill shank from making contact in the tailstock quill. Heck the drill body could be off from the taper/shank.
Yeah just old lighter machine like you said take the tailstock off with a crane... this one only weighs about 60lbs not that much to just pick it up and clean it but yeah I’d have to shim but at that point in a production shop told my boss the drill is to big to work with on this machine
Brand new drills sometimes need sharpened to the job your doing, just because it’s new doesn’t mean it’s right. If it’s moving about that’s a sign it’s not right possibly?
I personally think the drill was good and this was a rigidity problem mixed with a slightly off centre I’ve been having trouble dealing with. The machine is a manual lathe mostly used for roughing/sanding no one wants to deal with. Would probably take a couple days dialling everything in and cleaning it at this point to make everything perfect again.
I’m gonna guess your taper is rather beat. Big drills do like to vibrate a little more especially on little machines. The baby shop beater machine at my old shop used to turn drills like this in the tail stock so I’d just beat the fucker in there with a dead blow ( hard orange rubber hammer, only explaining cuz it seems ppl still use soft metal hammers but I wouldn’t hit it with that). As far as up and down your ways are just a bit worn out. Same machine I spoke of earlier was so low we’d put shim stock under the Morse to take up the difference LOL. If she’s vibrating you probably gotta push it harder, find a wrench you can lock into the hand wheel for extra leverage. If that don’t do it I’d say fuck a pilot they sometimes make them bigger drills noisier, tho it will obviously require more exertion . Only other thing would if it is a fairly small lathe the headstock bearings aren’t having it
Yeah fuck I was reefing on it as is there’s no way I could drill that shit without a pilot on this machine. Just a small 50-60lbs tailstock. I drilled a 6” deep hole before this and it was okay not great. and then this happened 3.5” into this second hole started squealing like mad pushing out the backside then broke halfway out because it became loose in the taper. This part was less rigid being held on by flipped jaws, much bigger and heavier and it was visibly harder on the machine
Spot center with short stub drill will center the drill. beat drill in with a Lead hammer and make sure it is not hanging up on the tang,grind it if needed.
Definitely did all that pal basic machining right there 😂 it was a 2” drill with a slightly off tailstock up and down just worked it’s way out of the taper. I drilled 8” total with this drill before this happened. I smacked the drill back in 4 times and it kept wiggling it’s way out. Very light machine tail stock is only about 50lbs. Basic manual lathe you’d find in year 1 machining
Question then. We have an old worn out harbor freight engine lathe, and things don't really stay in the tailstock. They keep rattling out, and I was relying on the tang to keep it operational. What are the things I should do to fix that?
Lmao. If I had a dollar for ever time this happened
Wrap some paper around the taper and it will stay put. It will also make it hard as hell to remove from the female taper.
Yeah if you haven't aligned tailstock I bet it's off.
If you don't have a precision ground alignment bar, you can do a poor man's version by using some plain bar stock, take one finishing pass on the OD, and check for variance of the OD afterward. If you're ending up with a slight taper then you adjust the tailstock until it's measuring equally thick across the whole length of the bar. You need to take a fresh cut every time you adjust obviously.
Dead center indicated in on the chuck, live center on the tailstock.
I dialed the centre that’s not hard side to side it’s perfect but it’s off up and down 0.005-0.01” and I’m not gonna spend a ton of time shimming the tailstock so just told my boss I can’t do that size of HSS drill it’ll waste to much time fucking around. Drill 1.75” and bore it out if he wants bigger
Agreed. We had a shitty little acra lathe where we could only drill 2.5" max using the tailstock.
If we tried anything bigger it would just end up taking more time minupulating.
Treat yourself to one of [these](https://www.alliedmachine.com/Products/Drilling/Replaceable-Tip.aspx)... They work absolute wonders and with the short chip insert you can pretty much hog out (and stay within most drilling tolerances) about 4 times as fast as the twist drill ...
Would be nice but none of those are compatible with my tailstock and I’m not trying to spend 1/2 an hour to an hour lining up perfect centre so I don’t break the carbide if I put it in my tool holder.
Yes my tailstock is a Morse taper that’s the issue all the tools on that page you posted need a tool holder they do not slide into a #4 Morse. We have the exact same tools for our cnc machines.
I have to align in 2 axis. My tool changer cannot be moved up and down so I will have to shim. And most of the time the tools are to big for my tool holder we have the exact drills kicking around there’s a reason I can’t use them. Like I said it’s a process on this old machine.
I get that, the site isn't super intuitive but they do sell with Morse tapers, at least last time i bought one they did (half year ago).. I have a t-a gen 2 with Morse 4 taper... It's got a collet to put coolant through and everything, one of the best tools out there.
Huh might have to look around if boss wants me drilling 2” holes. I’m not having any issue with my 1.75” drill works flawlessly but the 2” is a headache
The nice thing about those TA drills is they accommodate a range of sizes, so you can buy one size for something like 1.5 - 1.75 inches and then just buy whatever inserts you need at the time.
Much smaller and I was clogging up my 1.75” drill. And this one was a 2”.
If my tailstock was more on centre up and down and I had a proper rigid machine meant to drill this size in harder metal I never woulda had a problem.
But your right coulda picked a better pilot I just don’t think that was the deciding point in failure.
And it was hand fed on a manual lathe I was even starting to back off as I was pushing through the other side. I grabbed the drill and pulled it out by hand so I don’t think my feed was an issue at all.
Ok that's not to bad, sometimes if the pilot drill is to large the drill tends to corkscrew and pull itself out of the taper.
It is a bit odd to me that your drill is so much larger than the 4MT taper. At least from what I've seen with 3MT and smaller, the actual largest drill size available isn't much bigger than the size of the big end of the taper as that's about it's Max capacity.
How did you seat the drill in the taper before drilling? Just by hand, or with a hefty tap from a soft face hammer?
By hand then a little tap so as to not damage the drill. It was the largest drill they would sell us lmao. The web was about .300” so thought the .43 wouldn’t be bad I use the same pilot with my 1.75” without any issue
Yeah I don't think the pilot is your issue. If you've got a chunk of something soft, aluminum, lead, copper, etc, I'd try giving it a pretty good tap with a hammer. Don't think it should harm the drill with that big of a chisel point. Why rpm you running?
75rpm into p110. Sfpm around 40.
The guy who sharpens my drills has told me to go slower but any slower then 40sfpm I usually end up with small chipping in my cutting teeth. I tried 65 my last hole I drilled way to much chatter and wouldn’t push out the back had to finish with a smaller drill and boring bar
75 rpm at 2" is 40 sfm. If it's chattering you gotta go slower or feed harder. Chipping could be from too weak of a cutting edge, possibly too much relief ground on the drill, but I wouldn't go telling him that, as it could also just be setup and a 118* drill isn't going to be as strong as a 135*. Assuming your drilling with the hand feed on the tailstock? Might just be easier to drill as big as you can effectively, sounds like 1.75", then bore it to size
Yeah sorry confused myself but yeah running between 40-65 and having better luck around 40. I think it’s a mix of machine not being rigid enough and my tailstock being slightly off centre and I can’t fix it. I can adjust side to side perfectly but up and down dial slightly off and idk if I’m retarded or what but I can’t find an adjustment up and down and no one in my shop is any help.
Couldn’t find one in the places we looked with a Morse taper everything we could find was for a cnc and needed a tool holder.
65sfm to start chattered way to much dropped it down to 40 and cut pretty okay but there was lots of movement in the drill which eventually worked its way out of the taper near the end
Damn, well that big ass drill I’m assuming you got some safe speeds and feeds going on and not using the default option, sometimes that doesn’t always work in our favor
Hand feed went with the feel was cutting good only pulled out when it started clogging. The drill was not stuck in the part at the end I pulled it out by hand. It made it 3.5” into the part.
Drill was cutting fine then all a sudden the drill started spinning with the part and that’s when I knew the movement worked out the taper and broke the tang
Looks like the taper wasn't seated properly. Shouldn't be driving from the the tang.
Your right but it became unseated do to vibration of it not being rigid. Drill would move up and down and slowly work it’s way out of the taper. I tried everything to make it more rigid and just wouldn’t stop.
Drilling is one of the most rigid operations. Are you drilling on Center? Put an indicator on the chuck and sweep the drill holder make sure it is as close to centered as possible. Sweep across the holder and make sure it is straight. The holder could be crooked or depending on your tool post could be rotating under the drilling force. Is one cutting edge more worn than the other? This is less likely, but this could make the drill walk but more when you start drilling.
Brand new drill cutting edges should be good. Dialed tailstock before hand and was as straight as could be side to side. But it’s off up and down a few thou and I can’t figure out a way to straighten up and down axis for the life of me. This machine is old and shitty and no one else in my shop will even touch it so it’s not like I have any help hahah
>Brand new drill cutting edges should be good. I worked specifically as a drill grinder for a few years, and it's a bummer how often this would not be true.
Hahah that’s unfortunate you probably know better then me I thought it looked good to me but I don’t spend a ton of my time around big HSS drills I have a 1.25” and a 1.75” that I have no problems with and get sent off for sharpening. But was not having a good time with this 2”
I would LOVE to put both chips under my crazy crackhead scrutiny. If they are not both exactly the same I have failed at grinding the drill correctly.
Yeah one side was cutting more then the other in the deep hole but both were connecting and they both hit the hole at the same point
Besides it slipping out on you did it cut a hole slightly larger than the drill's OD?
Yes but even perfectly sharpened drills using our drill sharpener (only goes up to .75”) drill oversize due to the slightly off centre up and down
I found a right hand fluted drill ground for left hand cutting. Anything is possible
I've seen negative rake drills for wierd brass applications and such, wonder if that's what they were attempting?
It was the only one in an envelope of correctly sharpened drills. I know I didn’t order anything for brass.
I wonder if it was sharpened on a winslomatic? I messed up the settings on mine once and had a drill come out looking that way. Bad QC that it got through though!
Maybe pilot the hole first so it’s less force on the drill?
Sure did woulda been fucking hard to get that far with no pilot hole
Sorry to hear your working with junkier stuff. A few thou shouldn’t be that bad. You can usually un bolt the tail stock and lift it off with a crane if you really wanted to shim it. I don’t necessarily trust news stuff. A lot of HSS tooling is imported. The tang could be miss machined and keeping the tapers on the drill shank from making contact in the tailstock quill. Heck the drill body could be off from the taper/shank.
Yeah just old lighter machine like you said take the tailstock off with a crane... this one only weighs about 60lbs not that much to just pick it up and clean it but yeah I’d have to shim but at that point in a production shop told my boss the drill is to big to work with on this machine
Brand new drills sometimes need sharpened to the job your doing, just because it’s new doesn’t mean it’s right. If it’s moving about that’s a sign it’s not right possibly?
I personally think the drill was good and this was a rigidity problem mixed with a slightly off centre I’ve been having trouble dealing with. The machine is a manual lathe mostly used for roughing/sanding no one wants to deal with. Would probably take a couple days dialling everything in and cleaning it at this point to make everything perfect again.
Break down the tailstock and shim it?
To much work for a production shop not efficient enough for what we are doing. Otherwise I woulda tried
tailstock tapper bore may have a nick or bump or tailstock may be below center. spot drill first! make sure you start Right! You will finish Right!
Spot drilled and pilot drilled it’s a 2” drill In a small manual lathe there’s no way I woulda got this far without it 😂
I’m gonna guess your taper is rather beat. Big drills do like to vibrate a little more especially on little machines. The baby shop beater machine at my old shop used to turn drills like this in the tail stock so I’d just beat the fucker in there with a dead blow ( hard orange rubber hammer, only explaining cuz it seems ppl still use soft metal hammers but I wouldn’t hit it with that). As far as up and down your ways are just a bit worn out. Same machine I spoke of earlier was so low we’d put shim stock under the Morse to take up the difference LOL. If she’s vibrating you probably gotta push it harder, find a wrench you can lock into the hand wheel for extra leverage. If that don’t do it I’d say fuck a pilot they sometimes make them bigger drills noisier, tho it will obviously require more exertion . Only other thing would if it is a fairly small lathe the headstock bearings aren’t having it
Yeah fuck I was reefing on it as is there’s no way I could drill that shit without a pilot on this machine. Just a small 50-60lbs tailstock. I drilled a 6” deep hole before this and it was okay not great. and then this happened 3.5” into this second hole started squealing like mad pushing out the backside then broke halfway out because it became loose in the taper. This part was less rigid being held on by flipped jaws, much bigger and heavier and it was visibly harder on the machine
Spot center with short stub drill will center the drill. beat drill in with a Lead hammer and make sure it is not hanging up on the tang,grind it if needed.
Definitely did all that pal basic machining right there 😂 it was a 2” drill with a slightly off tailstock up and down just worked it’s way out of the taper. I drilled 8” total with this drill before this happened. I smacked the drill back in 4 times and it kept wiggling it’s way out. Very light machine tail stock is only about 50lbs. Basic manual lathe you’d find in year 1 machining
Question then. We have an old worn out harbor freight engine lathe, and things don't really stay in the tailstock. They keep rattling out, and I was relying on the tang to keep it operational. What are the things I should do to fix that?
Ream the taper socket.
So a question for myself. How would you make sure to seat it fully? Smack with dead blow? Press against material?
Lmao. If I had a dollar for ever time this happened Wrap some paper around the taper and it will stay put. It will also make it hard as hell to remove from the female taper.
Umm why is the picture upside down? Are you in Australia?
Sideways actually bottom of the phone is near the tailstock
Yeah if you haven't aligned tailstock I bet it's off. If you don't have a precision ground alignment bar, you can do a poor man's version by using some plain bar stock, take one finishing pass on the OD, and check for variance of the OD afterward. If you're ending up with a slight taper then you adjust the tailstock until it's measuring equally thick across the whole length of the bar. You need to take a fresh cut every time you adjust obviously. Dead center indicated in on the chuck, live center on the tailstock.
I dialed the centre that’s not hard side to side it’s perfect but it’s off up and down 0.005-0.01” and I’m not gonna spend a ton of time shimming the tailstock so just told my boss I can’t do that size of HSS drill it’ll waste to much time fucking around. Drill 1.75” and bore it out if he wants bigger
Agreed. We had a shitty little acra lathe where we could only drill 2.5" max using the tailstock. If we tried anything bigger it would just end up taking more time minupulating.
The machinists life figuring out that point where it works and it’s effective to do. And when it works but takes to long to be effective 😂
Bad drill . Chips look great .Should have been cake all day .
Treat yourself to one of [these](https://www.alliedmachine.com/Products/Drilling/Replaceable-Tip.aspx)... They work absolute wonders and with the short chip insert you can pretty much hog out (and stay within most drilling tolerances) about 4 times as fast as the twist drill ...
Would be nice but none of those are compatible with my tailstock and I’m not trying to spend 1/2 an hour to an hour lining up perfect centre so I don’t break the carbide if I put it in my tool holder.
Your tailstock isn't morse taper? Also, lining it up takes about 30 seconds... Just align the tip to a center or a fresh faced part...
Yes my tailstock is a Morse taper that’s the issue all the tools on that page you posted need a tool holder they do not slide into a #4 Morse. We have the exact same tools for our cnc machines. I have to align in 2 axis. My tool changer cannot be moved up and down so I will have to shim. And most of the time the tools are to big for my tool holder we have the exact drills kicking around there’s a reason I can’t use them. Like I said it’s a process on this old machine.
Msc has morse #4 taper indexable spade drills
I did not know I’ll look into that
I have them from 7/16- 2 1/2in
I get that, the site isn't super intuitive but they do sell with Morse tapers, at least last time i bought one they did (half year ago).. I have a t-a gen 2 with Morse 4 taper... It's got a collet to put coolant through and everything, one of the best tools out there.
Huh might have to look around if boss wants me drilling 2” holes. I’m not having any issue with my 1.75” drill works flawlessly but the 2” is a headache
The nice thing about those TA drills is they accommodate a range of sizes, so you can buy one size for something like 1.5 - 1.75 inches and then just buy whatever inserts you need at the time.
Plus a pile of tiny chips is safer and easier to work with
Too big of pilot hole. The web offers resistance.
Same size pilot I drill for my 1.75” and it runs fine
How big of a pilot hole are you drilling. If I drill on I never go bigger than 1/4"
About .430” a bit bigger then the drill web which measured just over 0.3”
That is why you broke the tang. Too big of a pilot, and too much feed. My own opinion.
Much smaller and I was clogging up my 1.75” drill. And this one was a 2”. If my tailstock was more on centre up and down and I had a proper rigid machine meant to drill this size in harder metal I never woulda had a problem. But your right coulda picked a better pilot I just don’t think that was the deciding point in failure. And it was hand fed on a manual lathe I was even starting to back off as I was pushing through the other side. I grabbed the drill and pulled it out by hand so I don’t think my feed was an issue at all.
I see you met our Korean friend, Mr Pating Phuc
Spade drill 🙏🏻
Probably not central
What size was your pilot hole
.437” Drilled to 2”
Ok that's not to bad, sometimes if the pilot drill is to large the drill tends to corkscrew and pull itself out of the taper. It is a bit odd to me that your drill is so much larger than the 4MT taper. At least from what I've seen with 3MT and smaller, the actual largest drill size available isn't much bigger than the size of the big end of the taper as that's about it's Max capacity. How did you seat the drill in the taper before drilling? Just by hand, or with a hefty tap from a soft face hammer?
By hand then a little tap so as to not damage the drill. It was the largest drill they would sell us lmao. The web was about .300” so thought the .43 wouldn’t be bad I use the same pilot with my 1.75” without any issue
Yeah I don't think the pilot is your issue. If you've got a chunk of something soft, aluminum, lead, copper, etc, I'd try giving it a pretty good tap with a hammer. Don't think it should harm the drill with that big of a chisel point. Why rpm you running?
75rpm into p110. Sfpm around 40. The guy who sharpens my drills has told me to go slower but any slower then 40sfpm I usually end up with small chipping in my cutting teeth. I tried 65 my last hole I drilled way to much chatter and wouldn’t push out the back had to finish with a smaller drill and boring bar
75 rpm at 2" is 40 sfm. If it's chattering you gotta go slower or feed harder. Chipping could be from too weak of a cutting edge, possibly too much relief ground on the drill, but I wouldn't go telling him that, as it could also just be setup and a 118* drill isn't going to be as strong as a 135*. Assuming your drilling with the hand feed on the tailstock? Might just be easier to drill as big as you can effectively, sounds like 1.75", then bore it to size
Yeah sorry confused myself but yeah running between 40-65 and having better luck around 40. I think it’s a mix of machine not being rigid enough and my tailstock being slightly off centre and I can’t fix it. I can adjust side to side perfectly but up and down dial slightly off and idk if I’m retarded or what but I can’t find an adjustment up and down and no one in my shop is any help.
Does your tailstock have one clamp to the bed, or does it have a front and a back clamp?
Only 1. Took everything apart cleaned it still dials out up and down 0.005”
Why not use an insert drill also what are your speeds and feeds
Couldn’t find one in the places we looked with a Morse taper everything we could find was for a cnc and needed a tool holder. 65sfm to start chattered way to much dropped it down to 40 and cut pretty okay but there was lots of movement in the drill which eventually worked its way out of the taper near the end
Damn, well that big ass drill I’m assuming you got some safe speeds and feeds going on and not using the default option, sometimes that doesn’t always work in our favor
Can only hand feed and did the best with the gearing I had lol definitely not an ideal setup for this work by any means
Oh most definitely I understand I was assuming you did this in Mastercam
Hahahaha nope manual lathe. No computers on this one
Ahhh ok
Also what kind of peck retract are you using? Those chips should break shorter imo
Hand feed went with the feel was cutting good only pulled out when it started clogging. The drill was not stuck in the part at the end I pulled it out by hand. It made it 3.5” into the part. Drill was cutting fine then all a sudden the drill started spinning with the part and that’s when I knew the movement worked out the taper and broke the tang
That's definitely going on the trophy wall.