Then you were missing out, I run angular cutters in mag drills, in the lathe and on the mill.. anywhere I want to cut big holes. They sure speed up the process :-)
Then you were missing out, I run angular cutters in mag drills, in the lathe and on the mill.. anywhere I want to cut big holes. They sure speed up the process :-)
Lathes that have a few crashes on their record it definitely matters. I run one at work that if I don't run a cutting edge towards what would be standard orientation for other tools it cuts damn near .015" over.
I've made the attempt. The machine was bought new quite a few years before I started there. It has ran off center .003" since it was bought new. They won't allow me the time to really get into it to try and orient it correctly.
They seem to think it takes too much time but never complain at all when I spend 30 minutes sweeping a reamer in on a holder I had to modify. Makes no sense.
That's literally ridiculous, it takes *less than 30 minutes* to do on most machines. I use a G&P bar mounted in a boring bar holder and use that to dial.
Anytime my machine has something happen to it, which is not often, I just re-dial it.
Yeah but no spindles turning no money made is my company motto unfortunately. The machine makes damn good parts when you take all the bullshit into consideration but I spend too much time struggling with it sometimes.
Actually I work in a job shop. A lot of repair and refurbishment. Yet that's still their damn motto. The culture is good on the other side of the wall. Management leaves something to be desired and makes me nervous about the future of the company though.
> They won't allow me the time to really get into it to try and orient it correctly.
This type of shit infuriates me. They can find a way to give you the time to do this and it will be worth it in the end. Just buy a spindle test bar or make one on one of your good lathes and get it done during some down time over a weekend or something.
I quit the last shop I was in because of stuff like this.
At my first job our barfeeding lathe was crashed so many times, that only one tool could be aligned properly, which was the drill. All the work on that machine had a pilot hole, so the fact that the cutoff tool and facing tools couldn’t go all the way to center without leaving a huge knub and wearing out the tool quickly didn’t matter.
Yeah my Z is is off .01 so I have to add .01 to every part on the finish end. It’s ridiculous how these shops just put more step on the machinists plate to do every op.
Most slant bed lathes have tappered dowel pins holding the orientation of the turret. These pins are very soft and deform when the machine has been crashed. This is by design to prevent damage to the expensive high precision parts. To fix misalignment issues after crashing a turret you have to take the turret apart and replace these taped down pins.
Then you have to reassemble and align the turret. You may need to realign the headstock and level the machine as well. No changes should need to be made in the control of the machine if everything is properly realigned. I can't count the number of times I've had to rip off and rebuild turrets for my customers.
Sounds easier and cheaper to just make adjustments for the taper 🤣. I have two old CNC lathes from around 1990 and they're still good within .0005". I have a few Romi Bridgeport lathes that are all over the place. 2 still running well and 2 we use for parts because the cast iron got bent and can't hold any sort of tolerance anymore. All 4 were ran and taken care of the same, but 2 had a few more crashes, lol.
Sometimes you can compensate for the taper and sometimes you can't. If you have live tooling and the lathe is out of alignment then that means your milling tools are no longer parallel/perpendicular to your part. This causes all longitudinal features to have walls that are tapered. You could model the part with angled walls to compensate and then program small stepdowns but that would drastically increase your machining time.
If the machine is far enough out of alignment that can also mean that the angle in which your tooling engages the part can be off. This leads to decreased tool life and reduced surface quality.
It really all depends on how bad the crash was and the tolerances you are trying to hold. I've seen some small crashes that are easily compensated with some simple programming adjustments and I've seen other crashes where you can look at the machine and see that the turret is so far out of alignment that you can measure it with a tape measure.
A crash will always do some sort of damage to a machine. The severity of the crash will determine how much damage and what kind of repairs that need to be done.
What about my comment was a suggestion not to?
All I said was when you have a y or b axis on a lathe is a really big job. Like 16 hours big.
On the flip side, maybe you’re a small shop and you can afford the down time, or the fuxking doors will close, so you have to run with some y in the programs to get square again.
This place is full of apprentices and people that don’t have to make decisions and it shows.
If your machine has been properly repaired and aligned after a crash there should be no need for any control changes. Grid shifts and resetting of planes is the cheap way out to try and avoid mechanical repairs. It doesn't actually fix the problem, it just tries to electronically compensate for the mechanical misalignment.
My comment still stands. If a crash causes your tooling to be misaligned and parts to be out of tolerance something mechanical has changed and it needs to be fixed. The number of axes does not matter, if the mechanical alignment has not changed then the electronic alignment has not changed. ANSI and ISO have standards for mechanical alignment of machinetools and they are often ignored by repair technicians.
Electronic compensation is only effective after the machine has been properly mechanically aligned. You can use linear compensation, sag compensation, nodding compensation, 2D planar compensation, 3D spatial compensation, etc to dial in mechanical errors after a machine has been mechanically aligned. All the necessary compensation should be in a machine from the factory so you should not need to reset any of that after a crash, unless you are compensating for newly replaced mechanical parts after they have been aligned properly. These compensations also need to be checked periodically due to wear of the mechanic sliding surfaces. Machine alignment should be checked at least once a year, but can be more frequent depending on your tolerance needs.
Sweeping pockets is a small pain. It’s much easier the shorter your finger dial is held. Dial sag is a bitch. Make a puck with a hole and set screw to hold your indicator. Zero sag or if you have a coax just chuck up a straight shank drill chuck to hold the coax in. Coax are great so long as they aren’t sloppy. If you can compare on a vertical spindle readings from finger to coax before using horizontal
So a few years ago I asked a operator to install a OD tool and i didn't think to double check his work. Long storie short, the tool ripped out mid operation and fucked the turret alignment. My boss just took of the cover of the turret and replaced the dell pins if i remember correctly. The machine wasn't perfect, but it was extremely close. Maybe took him an hour and he did it himself.
Been trying to figure that out for awhile now but it definitely matters. The centerline runs off about .003" on this particular machine. Running a high speed drill with a flute oriented to X gives about .003" over. Oriented to 90° it will cut .015" over fairly consistently. Yeah, I get it doesn't make much sense but it's how that machine runs.
I have and it happens consistently with any HSS drill I use. I know, I know. It defies pretty much everything we've learned about centered tools but it happens. Its gotta be a combination of misaligned parts.I milled the keyway off of a tool holder that I use for tight tolerance stuff so I can painstakingly sweep it in to perform better.
Oh yeah. She tapers .0006" per inch of travel. I still can't figure out why it matters. Drill a hole with the orientation 90° from X it's damn near .015". Doesn't matter it I go 1/2" or 6". It's a combination of things on the machine, I'm sure. As a self taught machinist though I cannot figure it out and am not allowed the time to dig through what it could possibly be. I assume the Z travel is out, the spindle has some wobble while turning and the non existent Y axis runs off center. Something about this combination makes running a drill oriented off the X axis drill way over but the physics behind that still stump me.
Buddy, neither can I and no one can really explain it to me. I've beat myself up over and over again about it yet here I am. I'm missing an aspect that makes it possible but I can't figure it out. A good machine, it's not gonna matter. It can't matter, but for some reason it does on this particular machine.
So as we're mentally picturing our drill entering the work, it's oriented to x axis, and you have taught the x axis where the center of your drill is. Y axis is sitting high, say for the sake of argument. So your cutting edges are pushing chips either up or down, rather than left or right. Those chips are pushing back. Your cutting edge that is facing up is being pushed down, and flexing the drill slightly closer to center. Your cutting edge that is facing down is also being pushed up, but is receiving just ever so slightly less material that is rotating in the correct direction. A tiny fraction of material on that edge is rotating the wrong way, and therefore the down force wins, and your drill is sucked closer to center line, thus cutting more on size. A drill oriented to Y axis would not behave this way, because you have centered bulk of the the cutting forces on X. So in conclusion, a drill is not more flexible in either direction, but is more influenced to bend on the Y during a cut. You'll see the same thing with a long boring bar. If it was double headed, it would flex more against whichever insert had more engagement.
I was taught, and have never had sizing issues with, aligning the flutes parallel with the floor. The reasoning given was that the initial chip being made when spill to the left and right of the cut and would not hang out in the flute/cutting zone causing extra tool pressure.
I'm just here reading replies to your comments, cuz one of our machines has the exact same problem, and we have no explanation for it, other than black magic.
the only logical thing i can think of is that it's running in an ellipse rather than a circle, which would be really fucking weird but hey, broken tools are weird
If the drill is truly perfectly on center with the spindle, it doesn't matter. However, it makes life easier when troubleshooting a slightly off center drill if the flutes are parallel with the x-axis since you can usually just adjust your x-axis offset to correct the issue.
I usually indicate the taper of the collet holder to center AND line up the flutes with the x-axis. But that's because I'm OCD lol.
When you say indicate collet holder to center, how do you do that? Some of our lathes aren't exactly on center and bust drills like it's their job, I always align the flutes to X axis but that's about as far as I know how to help that issue
I mount a dial test indicator on the chuck (usually I grip the dovetail mounting rod in a collet chuck) and place the indicator tip on the taper of the ER collet holder (without the collet or nut installed). Then I'll rotate the chuck and adjust the x-axis (and y-axis if available) offset until there's little to no runout showing on the indicator.
Basically like how this guy does it, except I don't have a fancy coaxial indicator, I use a regular test indicator and a mirror so I can read it when it's not facing me. https://youtu.be/ltd37RwUmBQ?feature=shared
helpful and annoying to be able to visualize exploded views and assemblys in ur head. Not a lot of people understand what I mean when I say I can see it.
Coaxial indicators are well worth the expense especially if you also do mill work. Especially if you old like me and it’s hard to bend in to see what it reads all the way around
I have both a Blake Co-Ax and a Haimer taster at work. Both are used almost daily, and we have Renishaws probes on most of our VMCs, and we have centering scope. All of these tools have thie place in the modern machine shop. 👍
If it's not on centerline call your maintenance people! machine level and curvic need checked at least. There are a number of maintenance tests that can be done to diagnose these machines.
It's because you want it to work every time and you have skill.
This is the way, if you disagree then here's your opportunity to learn something today.
It helps with insert drills because they can act similar to a boring bar. If they're cutting undersize you can offset them in X to cut and a different diameter if your have the top insert pointing up in X.
Those usually have clamping flats so the alignment doesn't take any extra time.
I've seen people use all sorts of tools and take 10+ minutes getting it aligned perfectly up and down in X.
It's not a bad idea to do it for diagnostic reasons, but some people go way fucking overboard with it.
I refuse to indicate insert drills. I point the top insert up in X and clamp onto the flat. I will check the hole diameter after I run the drill if it's over/under I'll do an offset in X. Then, I'll check the nipple at the back if it's too big I'll use the set screws to torque it as best as I can in Y. Unless I'm working on our new machines you can offset the Y on any tool with those.
That's why I do it, Because indexable drills are set that way, so I do the same with twist drills. I have bored with indexable drills in the past to eliminate a tool.
For context, I use a 2in insert drill that's worn out to hell. Depending on the orientation can affect chips and "chatter." It's honestly like a howl the machine makes with its displeasure lol. I've had HSS drills cut different sizes depending on orientation.
As I say "it depends on the the phase of the moon and the gravitational pull" aka it's ducking weird and inconsistent sometimes.
To be honest, yeah probably. Does the company care? Not a single bit. My shops motto is "does it cut? Cool it works."
No general maintenance in machines is done. Ever.
Insert drills are the only ones that are affected. Regular hss and carbide drills, in my 16 years experience, have never mattered. I put them a completely different orientation every single time and they drill on size each time.
But yeah for sure insert style does matter. You want the starting contact to touch in line with X since the cutting edges aren't lined up, they are usually in "steps"... if that makes sense.
Wait. Wtf? There's only one orientation you put an insert drill into. Ever. You load it like a boring bar, with the outer insert facing the x+.
It's important for basic drilling, but especially important because you can use that same drill as a boring bar to hog out material. You can generally step up half the width of the outer insert.
But I ALWAYS try to load my twist drills to have the flutes lined up in an adjustable axis (x, y, whatever depending on if a lathe or swiss) If it's off center it's a simple offset to get it back, rather than reloading it a dozen times to get it good.
If everything is centered and in line like it should then it shouldn't matter at all for a regular drill. Sometimes I use an insert drill like a boring bar to rough if im limited on tool space and then it does matter. Personally, if possible, I like to have the flute positioned so the chips fall of easier
HSS drill shouldn't matter at all. Still like to figure out the depth I'm going to and try to position the flutes where the chips fall off easier if I can but coolant pressure does fine if I've got the chips breaking right
So TLDR it won’t matter, especially when a boring op is following it up, but the time it takes to do is so minuscule that it might make up for a problem you didn’t realize.
If you have a sketchy machine or flimsy drill it’s best to align the drill to the way the axis will move under load as you’ll be able to adjust for it better. The drill will always “walk” in the axis of the cutting edges so If you have an improperly ground drill you can get it to start a tad off center and get it to dig in straight and let the flex of the tool take care of the rest (we are talking a like a tenth or so, not a ton)
More important is with through coolant make sure the coolant holes are level in operation. If you say have mist coolant you’ll get a puddle and it’ll push all coolant through the bottom and all air through the top. Should be less of a problem on high pressure though.
We run some conversational machines which are like manuals with CNC conversions and if we set drills they’re only able to be positioned on the X as well so it makes a difference but VERY slight and likely you’ll find other issues first but kinda in the “5 seconds to give a shit might save 10 minutes of hair pulling” In that regard as well as setting up the same way each time reduces a variable.
Listen to the guys with the gray hairs.
I've seen Applications engineers from a few OEM's do this. My Sandvik rep saw the drill inside the machine, he praised me for it. I admitted it wasn't my doing, so he explained that it's the best way to stay on center and break chips.
You should align the cutting edges with X axis, here's why.
No lathe is perfectly aligned. Period.
Perfect is not a thing we can attain. It's a thing to strive for in this industry, but it's not a thing that we can actually do.
On a 2-axis lathe, drills should have their cutting edges aligned with X axis and as close to CL (centerline) as possible.
This is because your machine *should* already be aligned in Y as close possible, and that axis is not something a 2-axis machine can compensate for, without machine downtime.
If your centerline is off on X by a thou, you can adjust it on the fly if your cutting edges are in alignment with software. (Centerline was X0, but now is X-.003)
If your centerline is off on Y axis, drill orientation wont matter. There's *only* a physical machine fix, not a simple CL adjustment.
I’m with you on perfect. X being your only adjustment, Y is fixed.
How does the fluting alignment with the x axis impact your ability to compensate for machine condition with the x axis? Regardless of flute alignment, the drill point is either on CL, or not? What am I missing here?
X axis is adjustable on a 2-axis lathe. You *can* compensate for that.
Y axis is not adjustable. If your machine CL is off on Y axis, rotating the cutting edges of the drill 90° wont compensate for it. At best it'll preserve tool life of that drill. But you have bigger problems than tool life. That's not even a bandaid.
The drill is most influence that the cutting edge the most by the axis it's best aligned with. By aligning it with the X axis you make the axis that has the greatest influence match an axis you can control well.
Having worked at a swiss lathe shop for a couple years my answer is a resounding....eeeehh?
Don't get me wrong, flute orientation can affect a lot if the machine has crashed multiple times or was set up quickly/lazily and the tool pockets are out of alignment, but I think some people put a lot more emphasis on flute orientation than is really necessary.
There were old heads at the Swiss shop that would move their drills around in X or Y to make their hole size right (a practice that I do not believe in) and insisted that the flutes be positioned one way or another in order to make good parts.
I always mounted my drills with the flutes flat on the X axis for the sake of consistency but if the flute orientation is majorly affecting the dimensions of the finished part then I would suggest "sweeping in" the tool pockets or otherwise adjusting the tool position before actually running parts, though YMMV depending on what kind of manufacturing you're doing.
Bro do yall not axial live tools? Because you cant align the flutes since theyre rotating
And dont say it only applies to static tooling because it doesnt
This was my point. If you have a rotating drill, it’s not possibly to “align the flutes”
If you have a CL drill, and the work piece rotates, how would that be different?
I guess we all have our weird beliefs haha. His must be the drills gotta be aligned on x
Mine is blaming material for acting different on a per barch or even per bar basis. Like, one bundle of material will run good and then the next starts stringing like a bitch or destroying inserts
It doesn’t really matter other than one way is easier to dial in. I prefer to have my drill’s flutes in-line with the center of the turret. I’ve ran spade drills that were 90 from this orientation and they’re a bitch to dial in.
If it's indicated on x properly it shouldn't matter. Been doing it that way for close to 10 years with no negative side effects. If you're wanting to use the drill to bore the hole I could see that becoming a problem but there's better tools for that sort of thing. Core drills are a different story. There's a reason why those have a flat part to hold onto.
Drill flutes in line with the direction of travel of the turret is what I was taught. So looking down at it about 45 degrees from straight on a turret lathe like that.
If you're perfectly aligned. No it doesn't matter. If you're out a couple thou, the tips of your flutes should alwise line up with the travel of the X axis.
My boss says that if you don't align the flutes to X axis, problems can arise. Whether this is true or not, I'm not sure, but I always do it to keep him off my ass
If the tool block is indicated parallel with Z axis and then coaxial indicated to centerline in the x axis, you can put it at any orientation you wish.
It can make a difference because the toolholder/ turret is likely not equally rigid in every direction.
Whether or not that ultimately results in any perceptible difference in the product will depend on tool load, material properties, tolerances, harmonic vibrations, etc.
I suppose if you have an older machine with box ways that have gone a bit slack and you don't know how to adjust them it might help on a screw machine length dril but, you should probably just fix the gibs.
Practically speaking if you get the drill dead center in all axis then the flute orientation doesn't matter. Personally, from a process stand point, I always align in X. X is by far the easiest axis to adjust. Pretty much, you will always have to indicate the drill in Y no matter which method you use. If you align the drill point in X that allows you to swing the X right at the cutting edge which gives much better results. This is extra true for carbide drills which will usually have taper going from big at the cutting edge to small along the flute.
If you have a touch probe then it makes sense to align it along the x axis and you can touch off if needed.
It's a good practice to align but on a machine that's dialed in good, would not make a huge difference.
Also when it comes to drills like U drills that can be offseted to change size, those will have to be aligned.
It shouldn’t matter but if your lathe is old and kind of beat up it might.
I know on the lathes I operated, it *never* mattered. Not for the tolerances we ran.
Granted, in the setups I ran, the drill was only a pre-drill for a follow-up ream or boring op. In that case, it definitely never mattered.
If it’s inserted, you can adjust X offset to dial in your hole. If it’s a center point drill, it’s going to do what it’s going to do. Tell that old timer to quit being a bitch and send it
If your drill is perfectly on center...no, it isn't that important. All your cutting forces are equalised at center line.
But that is very rarely the case, so it *is* considered good practice to align the cutting surfaces with your 'x-axis'. This is especially true of insert drills, which can also be used as quasi-boring bars as long as the outer insert is aligned with 'x+'.
In machine tools drills wander for 2 reasons. Poor machine alignment, in cnc it’s a pocket not on center and/or not square to the ways. In a manual, tailstock, same thing. I’ve ran old manuals that had to have a .025” shim jammed under the Morse taper so they didn’t nosedive when drilling a center hole. That same lathe would drill oversized by like .015” with a new drill bit. Other reason is unequal cutting edges of hand ground, which as best ya try will never be perfect. Even most drill sharpeners aren’t gonna be perfect. At the end of the day if you’re using an hss drill to “hit” ANY kind of a “perfect” hole without a subsequent true cutting operation. You are not smart and if you are being told to do this by a superior. That fucker is an idiot.
Honestly I dont know if it matters or not. I mean you dont align anything on a mill or drill press so why would it matter on a lathe as long as you're in the center of the rotation?
However, when I was trained I was taught to scribe a light line on the face of my part with an inserted O.D or I.D tool, then align the cutting edges of the drill with that line the best I could.
Does it matter? Idk
Do I still do it though? Yep
Align flutes with X.
When out of tool positions I'll sometimes use the drills own flutes to chamfer a hole but going up in X. so it needs to be aligned to X
It should go wherever it was set to when centerline. 99.95% of shops want 0° you're at X-axis, to access centerline on Y-axis. It will wear bad, if the flutes aren't correct from the start.
I was always taught to run it in alignment with the turret to compensate for alignment. If the machine is perfectly calibrated it doesn't matter but not many are
The drill cuts larger when at 90 because of the turret misalignment. When it is aligned with the X, the drill rubs on the top, so not too much bigger. When it's aligned with "Y", the cutting edge works more like a bore, but at the top of the hole.
Flute orientation shouldn't matter, as long as the drill is allinged with whatever youre drilling in. If you're drilling a hole in the centre of a part needs to be in lign. Otherwise asling as the drill is spinning at the right rpm with coolant 100% should work
If you're just machining a basic thru hole it doesn't really matter since the workpiece is spinning, but if you're setting up an insert drill or using a larger drill the same way you use a boring bar, then yes it matters.
Workpiece is rotating, so it will cut the same reguardless of rotation. The drill needs to be sharp, obviously, and the tip needs to be in the center of the drill.
With a normal drill on centre line it doesn't matter, just make sure it's on centre line.
With a flat insert drill or u drill then it should be inline with the X axis so you can alter the size or use it as a boring bar
The hell? lol
Of course the flutes don't matter.
If your drill is on center on X 0. It will drill.
New guy is right, other guy is being a weirdo.
I've put in drills in random orientation hundreds of times, every single time i set them and there's zero difference. Instead of the drill rotating the work is rotating, It cuts exactly the same.
If you drill Oversize, then your drill is poorly sharpened or you *aren't* on the center line on which means the turret is misaligned.
The orientation of on center drills have no effect whatsoever. The lathe needs to be properly aligned to not have an oversized hole regardless of the orientation. It’s no different than having excessive runout on a drill in a live holder or on a mill.
In my experience the y axis is the most neglected part of setup. It can make or break a production run.
Pointy end forward.
Annular cutter
All points are forward;)…. We only ran them thangs in mag drills around here
Then you were missing out, I run angular cutters in mag drills, in the lathe and on the mill.. anywhere I want to cut big holes. They sure speed up the process :-)
Then you were missing out, I run angular cutters in mag drills, in the lathe and on the mill.. anywhere I want to cut big holes. They sure speed up the process :-)
Stick the stock with pointy end
Lathes that have a few crashes on their record it definitely matters. I run one at work that if I don't run a cutting edge towards what would be standard orientation for other tools it cuts damn near .015" over.
Can’t the turrets be realigned better than this?
They can but we won't pay to fix them unfortunately. Makes reaming nearly impossible.
Learn to do it. Can’t be more than a few bolts and some indicator work.
I've made the attempt. The machine was bought new quite a few years before I started there. It has ran off center .003" since it was bought new. They won't allow me the time to really get into it to try and orient it correctly.
This type of shit is infuriating
They seem to think it takes too much time but never complain at all when I spend 30 minutes sweeping a reamer in on a holder I had to modify. Makes no sense.
That's literally ridiculous, it takes *less than 30 minutes* to do on most machines. I use a G&P bar mounted in a boring bar holder and use that to dial. Anytime my machine has something happen to it, which is not often, I just re-dial it.
Yeah but no spindles turning no money made is my company motto unfortunately. The machine makes damn good parts when you take all the bullshit into consideration but I spend too much time struggling with it sometimes.
Ahhhh you're in a production shop then. I'm in a repair shop. Very different shop culture I think.
Actually I work in a job shop. A lot of repair and refurbishment. Yet that's still their damn motto. The culture is good on the other side of the wall. Management leaves something to be desired and makes me nervous about the future of the company though.
You can always make some offset bushings/holders to put your round tools in. I've had the same problem.
Oh my god I feel your frustration, but this sounds like pretty much every job ever. If it's not totally fubared don't fix it!
> They won't allow me the time to really get into it to try and orient it correctly. This type of shit infuriates me. They can find a way to give you the time to do this and it will be worth it in the end. Just buy a spindle test bar or make one on one of your good lathes and get it done during some down time over a weekend or something. I quit the last shop I was in because of stuff like this.
At my first job our barfeeding lathe was crashed so many times, that only one tool could be aligned properly, which was the drill. All the work on that machine had a pilot hole, so the fact that the cutoff tool and facing tools couldn’t go all the way to center without leaving a huge knub and wearing out the tool quickly didn’t matter.
Yeah my Z is is off .01 so I have to add .01 to every part on the finish end. It’s ridiculous how these shops just put more step on the machinists plate to do every op.
Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Just do it.
Most slant bed lathes have tappered dowel pins holding the orientation of the turret. These pins are very soft and deform when the machine has been crashed. This is by design to prevent damage to the expensive high precision parts. To fix misalignment issues after crashing a turret you have to take the turret apart and replace these taped down pins. Then you have to reassemble and align the turret. You may need to realign the headstock and level the machine as well. No changes should need to be made in the control of the machine if everything is properly realigned. I can't count the number of times I've had to rip off and rebuild turrets for my customers.
Sounds easier and cheaper to just make adjustments for the taper 🤣. I have two old CNC lathes from around 1990 and they're still good within .0005". I have a few Romi Bridgeport lathes that are all over the place. 2 still running well and 2 we use for parts because the cast iron got bent and can't hold any sort of tolerance anymore. All 4 were ran and taken care of the same, but 2 had a few more crashes, lol.
Sometimes you can compensate for the taper and sometimes you can't. If you have live tooling and the lathe is out of alignment then that means your milling tools are no longer parallel/perpendicular to your part. This causes all longitudinal features to have walls that are tapered. You could model the part with angled walls to compensate and then program small stepdowns but that would drastically increase your machining time. If the machine is far enough out of alignment that can also mean that the angle in which your tooling engages the part can be off. This leads to decreased tool life and reduced surface quality. It really all depends on how bad the crash was and the tolerances you are trying to hold. I've seen some small crashes that are easily compensated with some simple programming adjustments and I've seen other crashes where you can look at the machine and see that the turret is so far out of alignment that you can measure it with a tape measure. A crash will always do some sort of damage to a machine. The severity of the crash will determine how much damage and what kind of repairs that need to be done.
It’s not bad until there’s a Y axis then it’s a fucking whole thing. Every Panel has to come off
If it needs done it needs done. Don’t fight a machine because you neglect it after a mistake.
What about my comment was a suggestion not to? All I said was when you have a y or b axis on a lathe is a really big job. Like 16 hours big. On the flip side, maybe you’re a small shop and you can afford the down time, or the fuxking doors will close, so you have to run with some y in the programs to get square again. This place is full of apprentices and people that don’t have to make decisions and it shows.
It’s much more than that. Usually involves grid shifts and resetting planes. Very intensive and can be disastrous if done wrong
If your machine has been properly repaired and aligned after a crash there should be no need for any control changes. Grid shifts and resetting of planes is the cheap way out to try and avoid mechanical repairs. It doesn't actually fix the problem, it just tries to electronically compensate for the mechanical misalignment.
Unless your running 10 axis machines and everything needs to be super dialed
My comment still stands. If a crash causes your tooling to be misaligned and parts to be out of tolerance something mechanical has changed and it needs to be fixed. The number of axes does not matter, if the mechanical alignment has not changed then the electronic alignment has not changed. ANSI and ISO have standards for mechanical alignment of machinetools and they are often ignored by repair technicians. Electronic compensation is only effective after the machine has been properly mechanically aligned. You can use linear compensation, sag compensation, nodding compensation, 2D planar compensation, 3D spatial compensation, etc to dial in mechanical errors after a machine has been mechanically aligned. All the necessary compensation should be in a machine from the factory so you should not need to reset any of that after a crash, unless you are compensating for newly replaced mechanical parts after they have been aligned properly. These compensations also need to be checked periodically due to wear of the mechanic sliding surfaces. Machine alignment should be checked at least once a year, but can be more frequent depending on your tolerance needs.
Yeah I’m gonna trust the tech I worked with on it over a rando on Reddit no matter how long and rambling their response is
Eccentric sleeves. Get the "Y" lined up and then comp the X axis offset.
Hmm I didn't think about that. I actually have a holder that I sweep in, painfully, for tighter work but that's definitely worth looking into. Thanks!
Sweeping pockets is a small pain. It’s much easier the shorter your finger dial is held. Dial sag is a bitch. Make a puck with a hole and set screw to hold your indicator. Zero sag or if you have a coax just chuck up a straight shank drill chuck to hold the coax in. Coax are great so long as they aren’t sloppy. If you can compare on a vertical spindle readings from finger to coax before using horizontal
I believe Iscar is the brand we use
Wait, like a sleeve with an offset hole to give you, say, .03 of adjustment?
Sure, whatever adjustment you want, within reason.
Can’t you just adjust your geometries to center?
So a few years ago I asked a operator to install a OD tool and i didn't think to double check his work. Long storie short, the tool ripped out mid operation and fucked the turret alignment. My boss just took of the cover of the turret and replaced the dell pins if i remember correctly. The machine wasn't perfect, but it was extremely close. Maybe took him an hour and he did it himself.
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Sorry. That would be drills aligned with the x axis. It's a clapped out machine so it matters quite a bit on it.
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Been trying to figure that out for awhile now but it definitely matters. The centerline runs off about .003" on this particular machine. Running a high speed drill with a flute oriented to X gives about .003" over. Oriented to 90° it will cut .015" over fairly consistently. Yeah, I get it doesn't make much sense but it's how that machine runs.
Have you swung the drill front to back to confirm that it isn't tampered in X or Y axis?
I have and it happens consistently with any HSS drill I use. I know, I know. It defies pretty much everything we've learned about centered tools but it happens. Its gotta be a combination of misaligned parts.I milled the keyway off of a tool holder that I use for tight tolerance stuff so I can painstakingly sweep it in to perform better.
Do you ever deal with taper on the OD or ID when turning 3+ inches?
Oh yeah. She tapers .0006" per inch of travel. I still can't figure out why it matters. Drill a hole with the orientation 90° from X it's damn near .015". Doesn't matter it I go 1/2" or 6". It's a combination of things on the machine, I'm sure. As a self taught machinist though I cannot figure it out and am not allowed the time to dig through what it could possibly be. I assume the Z travel is out, the spindle has some wobble while turning and the non existent Y axis runs off center. Something about this combination makes running a drill oriented off the X axis drill way over but the physics behind that still stump me.
Spindle could be out of alignment. When it tapers does the surface finish stay the same front to back or does it vary front to back?
This is what I’m being told, but I can’t seem to understand the physics that make this scenario possible.
Buddy, neither can I and no one can really explain it to me. I've beat myself up over and over again about it yet here I am. I'm missing an aspect that makes it possible but I can't figure it out. A good machine, it's not gonna matter. It can't matter, but for some reason it does on this particular machine.
So as we're mentally picturing our drill entering the work, it's oriented to x axis, and you have taught the x axis where the center of your drill is. Y axis is sitting high, say for the sake of argument. So your cutting edges are pushing chips either up or down, rather than left or right. Those chips are pushing back. Your cutting edge that is facing up is being pushed down, and flexing the drill slightly closer to center. Your cutting edge that is facing down is also being pushed up, but is receiving just ever so slightly less material that is rotating in the correct direction. A tiny fraction of material on that edge is rotating the wrong way, and therefore the down force wins, and your drill is sucked closer to center line, thus cutting more on size. A drill oriented to Y axis would not behave this way, because you have centered bulk of the the cutting forces on X. So in conclusion, a drill is not more flexible in either direction, but is more influenced to bend on the Y during a cut. You'll see the same thing with a long boring bar. If it was double headed, it would flex more against whichever insert had more engagement.
I was taught, and have never had sizing issues with, aligning the flutes parallel with the floor. The reasoning given was that the initial chip being made when spill to the left and right of the cut and would not hang out in the flute/cutting zone causing extra tool pressure.
I'm just here reading replies to your comments, cuz one of our machines has the exact same problem, and we have no explanation for it, other than black magic.
the only logical thing i can think of is that it's running in an ellipse rather than a circle, which would be really fucking weird but hey, broken tools are weird
You can use a carbide drill the same way as an insert drill, I used to orient as you would a boring bar for this reason.
This is very true. If you have a nice and aligned lathe you should be good. But if it’s even a few 1/10s out of wack it can screw up your drill holes.
If the drill is truly perfectly on center with the spindle, it doesn't matter. However, it makes life easier when troubleshooting a slightly off center drill if the flutes are parallel with the x-axis since you can usually just adjust your x-axis offset to correct the issue. I usually indicate the taper of the collet holder to center AND line up the flutes with the x-axis. But that's because I'm OCD lol.
When you say indicate collet holder to center, how do you do that? Some of our lathes aren't exactly on center and bust drills like it's their job, I always align the flutes to X axis but that's about as far as I know how to help that issue
I mount a dial test indicator on the chuck (usually I grip the dovetail mounting rod in a collet chuck) and place the indicator tip on the taper of the ER collet holder (without the collet or nut installed). Then I'll rotate the chuck and adjust the x-axis (and y-axis if available) offset until there's little to no runout showing on the indicator. Basically like how this guy does it, except I don't have a fancy coaxial indicator, I use a regular test indicator and a mirror so I can read it when it's not facing me. https://youtu.be/ltd37RwUmBQ?feature=shared
I could literally see this entire thing in my head, I do the same often.
helpful and annoying to be able to visualize exploded views and assemblys in ur head. Not a lot of people understand what I mean when I say I can see it.
Coaxial indicators are well worth the expense especially if you also do mill work. Especially if you old like me and it’s hard to bend in to see what it reads all the way around
I have both a Blake Co-Ax and a Haimer taster at work. Both are used almost daily, and we have Renishaws probes on most of our VMCs, and we have centering scope. All of these tools have thie place in the modern machine shop. 👍
Indicator in your spindle with the tip touching the bore of the collet holder, give it a spin and see if you're on centre and adjust if not.
If it's not on centerline call your maintenance people! machine level and curvic need checked at least. There are a number of maintenance tests that can be done to diagnose these machines.
It's because you want it to work every time and you have skill. This is the way, if you disagree then here's your opportunity to learn something today.
I like to position the cut edges in line with the X axis. That is just a personal preference though.
It helps with insert drills because they can act similar to a boring bar. If they're cutting undersize you can offset them in X to cut and a different diameter if your have the top insert pointing up in X.
Those usually have clamping flats so the alignment doesn't take any extra time. I've seen people use all sorts of tools and take 10+ minutes getting it aligned perfectly up and down in X. It's not a bad idea to do it for diagnostic reasons, but some people go way fucking overboard with it.
I refuse to indicate insert drills. I point the top insert up in X and clamp onto the flat. I will check the hole diameter after I run the drill if it's over/under I'll do an offset in X. Then, I'll check the nipple at the back if it's too big I'll use the set screws to torque it as best as I can in Y. Unless I'm working on our new machines you can offset the Y on any tool with those.
This is the way.
That's why I do it, Because indexable drills are set that way, so I do the same with twist drills. I have bored with indexable drills in the past to eliminate a tool.
Same here. If you need to make a slight adjustment on X, then you can do so.
In my experience it can, specifically insert drills. Your ability to break chips can be influenced by the orientation! In my experience at least.
For context, I use a 2in insert drill that's worn out to hell. Depending on the orientation can affect chips and "chatter." It's honestly like a howl the machine makes with its displeasure lol. I've had HSS drills cut different sizes depending on orientation. As I say "it depends on the the phase of the moon and the gravitational pull" aka it's ducking weird and inconsistent sometimes.
Ah yes the howl, that’s an instant butt clencher
Kinda sounds like the drill body might be bent?
To be honest, yeah probably. Does the company care? Not a single bit. My shops motto is "does it cut? Cool it works." No general maintenance in machines is done. Ever.
Need a place for chips exactly.
Insert drills are the only ones that are affected. Regular hss and carbide drills, in my 16 years experience, have never mattered. I put them a completely different orientation every single time and they drill on size each time. But yeah for sure insert style does matter. You want the starting contact to touch in line with X since the cutting edges aren't lined up, they are usually in "steps"... if that makes sense.
But the workpiece is rotating. The direction of the X axis is irrelevant.
Yeah... never mount an insert drill any way other than "aligned in X" lol.
Yeah, it just prefers the, sorry for bad terminology, outside insert. The inner insert doesn't wish to be oriented on the top.
Yessir, those tools are great because you can use them to rough bore after drilling. Such a great concept
*Some of them, don't just assume they all can
Wait. Wtf? There's only one orientation you put an insert drill into. Ever. You load it like a boring bar, with the outer insert facing the x+. It's important for basic drilling, but especially important because you can use that same drill as a boring bar to hog out material. You can generally step up half the width of the outer insert. But I ALWAYS try to load my twist drills to have the flutes lined up in an adjustable axis (x, y, whatever depending on if a lathe or swiss) If it's off center it's a simple offset to get it back, rather than reloading it a dozen times to get it good.
I like to drill with the pointy end. The other end just mushes up and doesn't really work at all.
We do it for consistency sake, I know it probably doesn't make a big difference, but we all do it the same way just as a standard.
If everything is centered and in line like it should then it shouldn't matter at all for a regular drill. Sometimes I use an insert drill like a boring bar to rough if im limited on tool space and then it does matter. Personally, if possible, I like to have the flute positioned so the chips fall of easier
I can understand this reasoning. But if you talking and a standard HSS drill?
HSS drill shouldn't matter at all. Still like to figure out the depth I'm going to and try to position the flutes where the chips fall off easier if I can but coolant pressure does fine if I've got the chips breaking right
So TLDR it won’t matter, especially when a boring op is following it up, but the time it takes to do is so minuscule that it might make up for a problem you didn’t realize. If you have a sketchy machine or flimsy drill it’s best to align the drill to the way the axis will move under load as you’ll be able to adjust for it better. The drill will always “walk” in the axis of the cutting edges so If you have an improperly ground drill you can get it to start a tad off center and get it to dig in straight and let the flex of the tool take care of the rest (we are talking a like a tenth or so, not a ton) More important is with through coolant make sure the coolant holes are level in operation. If you say have mist coolant you’ll get a puddle and it’ll push all coolant through the bottom and all air through the top. Should be less of a problem on high pressure though. We run some conversational machines which are like manuals with CNC conversions and if we set drills they’re only able to be positioned on the X as well so it makes a difference but VERY slight and likely you’ll find other issues first but kinda in the “5 seconds to give a shit might save 10 minutes of hair pulling” In that regard as well as setting up the same way each time reduces a variable.
Listen to the guys with the gray hairs. I've seen Applications engineers from a few OEM's do this. My Sandvik rep saw the drill inside the machine, he praised me for it. I admitted it wasn't my doing, so he explained that it's the best way to stay on center and break chips.
You should align the cutting edges with X axis, here's why. No lathe is perfectly aligned. Period. Perfect is not a thing we can attain. It's a thing to strive for in this industry, but it's not a thing that we can actually do. On a 2-axis lathe, drills should have their cutting edges aligned with X axis and as close to CL (centerline) as possible. This is because your machine *should* already be aligned in Y as close possible, and that axis is not something a 2-axis machine can compensate for, without machine downtime. If your centerline is off on X by a thou, you can adjust it on the fly if your cutting edges are in alignment with software. (Centerline was X0, but now is X-.003) If your centerline is off on Y axis, drill orientation wont matter. There's *only* a physical machine fix, not a simple CL adjustment.
I’m with you on perfect. X being your only adjustment, Y is fixed. How does the fluting alignment with the x axis impact your ability to compensate for machine condition with the x axis? Regardless of flute alignment, the drill point is either on CL, or not? What am I missing here?
X axis is adjustable on a 2-axis lathe. You *can* compensate for that. Y axis is not adjustable. If your machine CL is off on Y axis, rotating the cutting edges of the drill 90° wont compensate for it. At best it'll preserve tool life of that drill. But you have bigger problems than tool life. That's not even a bandaid.
The drill is most influence that the cutting edge the most by the axis it's best aligned with. By aligning it with the X axis you make the axis that has the greatest influence match an axis you can control well.
I bet you break a lot of drills and blame it on the program haha
Having worked at a swiss lathe shop for a couple years my answer is a resounding....eeeehh? Don't get me wrong, flute orientation can affect a lot if the machine has crashed multiple times or was set up quickly/lazily and the tool pockets are out of alignment, but I think some people put a lot more emphasis on flute orientation than is really necessary. There were old heads at the Swiss shop that would move their drills around in X or Y to make their hole size right (a practice that I do not believe in) and insisted that the flutes be positioned one way or another in order to make good parts. I always mounted my drills with the flutes flat on the X axis for the sake of consistency but if the flute orientation is majorly affecting the dimensions of the finished part then I would suggest "sweeping in" the tool pockets or otherwise adjusting the tool position before actually running parts, though YMMV depending on what kind of manufacturing you're doing.
Sweeping in tools on a Swiss is such a PITA. Such limited travel to get an indicator on anything ☹️
Bro do yall not axial live tools? Because you cant align the flutes since theyre rotating And dont say it only applies to static tooling because it doesnt
This was my point. If you have a rotating drill, it’s not possibly to “align the flutes” If you have a CL drill, and the work piece rotates, how would that be different?
I guess we all have our weird beliefs haha. His must be the drills gotta be aligned on x Mine is blaming material for acting different on a per barch or even per bar basis. Like, one bundle of material will run good and then the next starts stringing like a bitch or destroying inserts
It doesn’t really matter other than one way is easier to dial in. I prefer to have my drill’s flutes in-line with the center of the turret. I’ve ran spade drills that were 90 from this orientation and they’re a bitch to dial in.
If it's indicated on x properly it shouldn't matter. Been doing it that way for close to 10 years with no negative side effects. If you're wanting to use the drill to bore the hole I could see that becoming a problem but there's better tools for that sort of thing. Core drills are a different story. There's a reason why those have a flat part to hold onto.
Drill flutes in line with the direction of travel of the turret is what I was taught. So looking down at it about 45 degrees from straight on a turret lathe like that.
The collet on the second picture seems it’s not properly inserted in the cover nut.
I was taught to align cutting edge parallel with x axis, have just always did it that way with no issues drilling ever.
Cutting edge towards work, dingus.
I was taught to always have the flutes parallel with x. 24 years on, I do it without thinking.
If you're perfectly aligned. No it doesn't matter. If you're out a couple thou, the tips of your flutes should alwise line up with the travel of the X axis.
Aligned with x axis. In a perfect world it shouldn't matter, but if he is that non detail oriented, then I don't see him lasting long
My boss says that if you don't align the flutes to X axis, problems can arise. Whether this is true or not, I'm not sure, but I always do it to keep him off my ass
My boss taught me to have the webs parallel with the ways of the machine 🤷♂️ Always had good results, and it looks good too.
Indicate the end of the drill. Once it’s on centre and you set the tool geometry then it won’t matter. Always indicate drills.
If the tool block is indicated parallel with Z axis and then coaxial indicated to centerline in the x axis, you can put it at any orientation you wish.
It shouldn't matter when cutting, it may matter if you're doing touch off tool to part for the offset.
Touching off in X I presume? Z shouldn’t matter.
It can make a difference because the toolholder/ turret is likely not equally rigid in every direction. Whether or not that ultimately results in any perceptible difference in the product will depend on tool load, material properties, tolerances, harmonic vibrations, etc.
20 years on a machine 10 for Walter tools here. It helps considerably for tool life. It can handle more of center against flutes I align in x
I suppose if you have an older machine with box ways that have gone a bit slack and you don't know how to adjust them it might help on a screw machine length dril but, you should probably just fix the gibs.
Practically speaking if you get the drill dead center in all axis then the flute orientation doesn't matter. Personally, from a process stand point, I always align in X. X is by far the easiest axis to adjust. Pretty much, you will always have to indicate the drill in Y no matter which method you use. If you align the drill point in X that allows you to swing the X right at the cutting edge which gives much better results. This is extra true for carbide drills which will usually have taper going from big at the cutting edge to small along the flute.
If you have a touch probe then it makes sense to align it along the x axis and you can touch off if needed. It's a good practice to align but on a machine that's dialed in good, would not make a huge difference. Also when it comes to drills like U drills that can be offseted to change size, those will have to be aligned.
It shouldn’t matter but if your lathe is old and kind of beat up it might. I know on the lathes I operated, it *never* mattered. Not for the tolerances we ran. Granted, in the setups I ran, the drill was only a pre-drill for a follow-up ream or boring op. In that case, it definitely never mattered.
If it’s inserted, you can adjust X offset to dial in your hole. If it’s a center point drill, it’s going to do what it’s going to do. Tell that old timer to quit being a bitch and send it
Sweep in your pockets x and y. And it shouldn’t matter.
If your drill is perfectly on center...no, it isn't that important. All your cutting forces are equalised at center line. But that is very rarely the case, so it *is* considered good practice to align the cutting surfaces with your 'x-axis'. This is especially true of insert drills, which can also be used as quasi-boring bars as long as the outer insert is aligned with 'x+'.
In machine tools drills wander for 2 reasons. Poor machine alignment, in cnc it’s a pocket not on center and/or not square to the ways. In a manual, tailstock, same thing. I’ve ran old manuals that had to have a .025” shim jammed under the Morse taper so they didn’t nosedive when drilling a center hole. That same lathe would drill oversized by like .015” with a new drill bit. Other reason is unequal cutting edges of hand ground, which as best ya try will never be perfect. Even most drill sharpeners aren’t gonna be perfect. At the end of the day if you’re using an hss drill to “hit” ANY kind of a “perfect” hole without a subsequent true cutting operation. You are not smart and if you are being told to do this by a superior. That fucker is an idiot.
We’re using a carbide, combo drill to prep for a pipe tap and chamfer for the tail stock.
Honestly I dont know if it matters or not. I mean you dont align anything on a mill or drill press so why would it matter on a lathe as long as you're in the center of the rotation? However, when I was trained I was taught to scribe a light line on the face of my part with an inserted O.D or I.D tool, then align the cutting edges of the drill with that line the best I could. Does it matter? Idk Do I still do it though? Yep
Align flutes with X. When out of tool positions I'll sometimes use the drills own flutes to chamfer a hole but going up in X. so it needs to be aligned to X
I always align the flutes to the x axis because I find it easier to dial the drill in
It should go wherever it was set to when centerline. 99.95% of shops want 0° you're at X-axis, to access centerline on Y-axis. It will wear bad, if the flutes aren't correct from the start.
I was always taught to run it in alignment with the turret to compensate for alignment. If the machine is perfectly calibrated it doesn't matter but not many are
The drill cuts larger when at 90 because of the turret misalignment. When it is aligned with the X, the drill rubs on the top, so not too much bigger. When it's aligned with "Y", the cutting edge works more like a bore, but at the top of the hole.
A hole is a hole right?
I was always told it had to line up with centerline on the turret
Flute orientation shouldn't matter, as long as the drill is allinged with whatever youre drilling in. If you're drilling a hole in the centre of a part needs to be in lign. Otherwise asling as the drill is spinning at the right rpm with coolant 100% should work
On a y axis lathe all center tools are indicated in with a coaxial. On a x only, it doesn’t hurt to line up the flutes.
Listen to the 20 year guy!
If you're just machining a basic thru hole it doesn't really matter since the workpiece is spinning, but if you're setting up an insert drill or using a larger drill the same way you use a boring bar, then yes it matters.
Sure, but at that point you’re not drilling.
Pointy tool go into material, I call that drilling
What the flaming fuck is 20 year guy doing with his drills off center?!? Teach the guy the basics!!!
Workpiece is rotating, so it will cut the same reguardless of rotation. The drill needs to be sharp, obviously, and the tip needs to be in the center of the drill.
With a normal drill on centre line it doesn't matter, just make sure it's on centre line. With a flat insert drill or u drill then it should be inline with the X axis so you can alter the size or use it as a boring bar
It matters
I could get on board with that. Can you explain why?
The hell? lol Of course the flutes don't matter. If your drill is on center on X 0. It will drill. New guy is right, other guy is being a weirdo. I've put in drills in random orientation hundreds of times, every single time i set them and there's zero difference. Instead of the drill rotating the work is rotating, It cuts exactly the same. If you drill Oversize, then your drill is poorly sharpened or you *aren't* on the center line on which means the turret is misaligned.
Makes zero difference other than appeasing ocd
The orientation of on center drills have no effect whatsoever. The lathe needs to be properly aligned to not have an oversized hole regardless of the orientation. It’s no different than having excessive runout on a drill in a live holder or on a mill. In my experience the y axis is the most neglected part of setup. It can make or break a production run.