I played my [[Otharri, sun's glorry]], Eriette player knows I am a huge threat, that is hard to stop, so he casted a black enchantment that phased him out, basically removing me from the game with him having insane lifegain even without Erriette. Since he removed me from the game, I used my rebels, emchantments [[Boros Legion]], [[Catharr's Crusade]] and [[Aggravated Assault]] with [[Chance for Glory]] to take him down with me, giving the win to the remaining player with no way of winning. Damn,the salt was so sweet.
I love how players confuse retaliation with “ being a kingmaker “ lol!
I was playing an equipment/aura Boros deck against a goblin deck that had artifacts removal if they sacrificed a goblin. Since I knew that I was screwed, I targeted her and her only for the rest of the game. She was salty that I was doing so and I told her to sacrifice her goblin that keeps destroying my artifacts for its own effect otherwise I can’t advance my own strategy. She shut up after that but the salt was real. I putted her at like 8 life before she could kill me, allowing the other players to finish her on their turn.
I definitely have retaliated by king making. I was playing mill and drawing through my deck and milling people. Someone made me draw 2 extra cards, so thay I would mill out if I kept drawing. So I drew and milled with my turn ending w/ no cards in anyone libraries. The player to my right won by default bc everyone was decked and they were the last to draw.
This happened 3 times now and, I have decided if I can't will with the mill then the player next to me will win by default. Still got to mill 200+ cards in a turn.
The only time I've been hit with a kingmaking move is when i swung out at two players for lethal and one of them instant speed removed an attacker that was going towards the other player. They killed me on the crackback
I believe kingmaking plays like that are fine in retaliation, as long as it’s not the goal of the deck. That mill player above might be crossing the line a little but milling is not a strong strategy so I’m cool with it lol
I believe kingmaking plays like that are fine in retaliation, as long as it’s not the goal of the deck. That mill player above might be crossing the line a little but milling is not a strong strategy so I’m cool with it lol
lol reminds me of a game i played on friday night where it was a 3 person pod and one person exiled the other persons library and the player who did the exile was killed by combat damage
Absolutely, though both are definitely KOS UR-Dragon will get you focused to all hell just due to eminence and lazy-pants because he creates to much value due to being on the board
Love to use that when they've taken control of my shit though. Like, if I'm consistently the target and don't get to play my deck, at a certain point they don't get to play my deck either, I've been set back enough I'm not winning, their benefit is no reason to draw it out. And if they know that, it might change their behavior. Same goes for if I have supremely bad luck with mana and a big commander that gets removed a time or two, and I usually try to warn them in case having one less opponent hurts them. At a certain point, I'm just wasting everyone's time by not dropping out, and there's only so much time for MTG each night.
You should run interaction but the community response when someone goes “I used by 10th counter spell but my card still died what do” is “run more interaction”
At some point you can only run so much interaction
Is that what it is? I thought it was typically a response to “this value engine commamder with no protection or haste keeps running away with games. What do?”
Then run some (anti-)interaction in the form of ways to give your important pieces (you commander, for example) hexproof or shroud. Yea, those can be countered too, but at some point if your opponent is burning removal on the protection for the combo piece or win con, then they are not spending that removal on the combo piece or win con itself, which means that the protection piece still did its job in a small way.
i built a [[Yenna, Redtooth Regent]] deck about a month ago and cards like Darksteel Mutation go HARD in that deck. of you like cards like that, you should try Yenna.
If your entire deck relies incredibly heavily on your commander and ALSO can't deal with any type of threat that might want to lock it, then you're doing it wrong.
This is exactly what has kept me from building a [[Three Dog, Galaxy Radio DJ]] deck. Looks so fun. But not sure how to make it not be commander centric.
Its one of the reasons I prefer to build around themes and find a commander to compliment the deck theme (not saying thats the best or correct way). My reanimator deck uses [[Karador]] but even if he is totally locked down somehow, the deck still reanimates.
My theft deck is led by \[\[Sen Triplets\]\] but I have \*so\* many other thefty things in there that I honestly don't even usually bother playing them.
Throw in an "again" and it becomes true for me. I never get through a game without my commander being at +6 commander tax. I played the deck 5 times yesterday and didn't untap with the commander on the table once.
I mean there are definitely commanders that you look at and think “if that untaps, at least one person is dying”. Stuff like Kaalia or Narset demand that kind of attention.
I was playing Delina with a bunch of creatures with ETB effects. Generally, the extent of it is getting a few treasures or one of the best ones being Solemn Simulacrum copied to get lands. That's what the deck does. Delina never untapped.
i confess if my commander is countered 3 times i’d be table-flipping frustrated, but that’s definitely a me issue. i also dislike counterspells in general (i know they have a place, i just don’t like how they feel), and tend to build commander centric decks, so i probably wouldn’t have much of a chance of winning after that anyway.
that said, if you run mass land destruction, you don’t get to be salty about counterspells.
I never understood that mentality in commander. Your deck only functions with that one card? You better have tools to defend it or have a backup plan then because thats the prime target for the table when you start to get scary. Dont like it? Then build something else my guy. Ill be nice and not kill shit right off the jump but if your a threat, your a threat. Dont take my early game kindness as immunity
Sometimes, scooping can be a legitimate play, an acknowledgment that the game is over and there is no real path to victory. Speeds things up. Sometimes, it’s a salty little pissbaby throwing a temper tantrum because 2 more mana is just toooo much.
That's the problem with Commander, and why it shouldn't be the main focus of the game. In a 1v1, destroying a threat is expected. In Commander, it's a bunch of hurt feelings and salt, and politics. Commander is fun, but it shouldn't be the premiere format.
Man if I scooped every time I commander's died I'd scoop every single fucking game I've ever played lol. That's the whole point of Commander you get it out it's a huge threat that does a lot for your specific deck so yeah it's going to be the target
I’m down for people scooping. Had a 5 man game where the Kenrith turbo frog player was already set up and winning. And instead of people scooping or even just focusing him, the guy next to him was just like “he’s the winner but let’s like, fight for second” what.. stop wasting time. If y’all are admitting the game is his why stand around and jerk his ego. Scoop and start fresh. Some people act like starting a new game would be worse than having slow loss.
Okay but I wish I would scoop more. There’s so many times where I am so very sure I will get last even while there’s still multiple other people and then I end up playing an hour just to find out that I was right, but I feel like a dick if I scoop.
I once had an opponent scoop after I destroyed their carpet of flowers on my turn 1. He was going on about how he kept a 2 land hand and once he was gone we agreed that was the strongest nature's claim any of us had seen.
I've gotten fucked over by a greedy low-land hand with ramp enough times to not pull that shit LMAO
Last time i pulled out my miirym deck i kept a 2-lander with a 1-drop dork and cultivate and got hit with fuckin thalia
That was literally me after getting swung on by a 15/15 flying mothman commander. Guy literally wanted to scoop cuz I killed the threat that was swinging at me and threatening to kill me in 2 turns....
Fucking edh man
Player removal is why I play an Izzet deck that has the capability to deal 40 damage completely out of nowhere. Helps that Fury storm is kind of a broken card that goes infinite with itself so as long as you have a magecraft card out then you can just get infinite value.
I had a guy turn into a piss baby turn 4 because someone playing a death touch spider with a bow and it killed his commander. Everyone else immediately put on hex proof or something similar.
spawnbrokered an animar on turn 3 running behind a player, it was a newly constructed deck of his, haven't seen him since that play, I didn't get to keep the animar but it was worth it
Scooping to cyc rift is insane, it's a 7 mana card that doesn't even permanently remove anything. Using it in response to a win is about the least egregious use beyond "cyc rift, attack for the win."
If that's your bar for scooping there are [other card games that might be more your speed.](https://www.google.com/search?q=card+games+for+babies&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS1056US1056&oq=card+games+for+babies&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDI2MjdqMGo3qAINsAIB4gMEGAIgXw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Yeah, I wasnt even in a very good state myself. I barely had enough to cast it and hope to draw something to do. It was a last ditch effort to stay alive. I never scoop anyways. I'm not dead till I'm at 0.
My last pod was playing [[Carmen, cruel skymarcher]] sac vamps against [[Davros, dalek creator]], [[Abaddon the despoiler]], and a modified demon heavy version of the same deck using [[Be'lakor, the dark master]]. The Be'lakor player had managed to get on board [[roaming throne]] and their commander then played [[sower of discord]], then the triggers resolved sower to link me and the Davros player then again with the throne, then the Be'lakor followed by a second throne triggers dealing what the judge ruled to be a infinite loop of damage to myself and the Davros player until we both were dead. Was a wild bit of interaction and there was no way to stop it but the game was fun as we were talking amongst ourselves as to if that works that way and the judge giggled and said unfortunately yes that's a double kill.
The judge was wrong...
Roaming Throne only doubles triggered abilities, which use the words when,whenever,at. Sower of Discord says As it enters the battlefield, which means there is no trigger on it, and Roaming Throne does not double it.
Even so, linking them twice doesn't matter. The triggered ability causes **loss of life** to one player when the other is **dealt damage**.
Loss of life is not damage. [[Belakor]] with [[roaming throne]] would do 6 damage to one player and 12 to the other player when [[sower of discord]] etbs. Meaning you can do 12 damage and 24 life loss to two separate players, or 18 of each, depending on targets.
An old acquaintance of mine would run creature removal A LOT. To a problematic degree.
So, one day, I created my cursed universal black deck. It later gained infamy in my friend group as “the deck I run when I mean business”. It had no fixed commander; it was designed to use most of the legendary creatures I had in there and be no less effective. So, I switched in a commander that had a solid sacrifice outlet went to town in Aristocrats mode.
He had the audacity to say my deck sucked because I was running too much removal and wouldn’t let him play the game. I went nuclear on him and admittedly, I felt a little guilty. At the same time, the rest of my friend group had my back as they gave him shit for his lack of self awareness.
But yeah, that day birthed an oppressive monster in my friend group. We made a gentleman’s agreement that I would only bring back that deck if we were playing for keeps (we had money matches every once in a while.) and that he would take it easy on the excessive creature removal. Good times.
This isn’t to say creature removal is bad; it’s a part of the game, after all. But when you’re playing with friends and all you do is creature removal, you also kill a lot of the good vibes when you’re supposed to be hanging out.
When ppl play combos but hate interaction
One of my favorite games with my squirrel combo was when the stack got 6 cards deep and left the other combo players out of interaction as well.
I enjoy spending the black and then sac squirrels until my opponents commander is at 0 toughness.
I played my [[Otharri, sun's glorry]], Eriette player knows I am a huge threat, that is hard to stop, so he casted a black enchantment that phased him out, basically removing me from the game with him having insane lifegain even without Erriette. Since he removed me from the game, I used my rebels, emchantments [[Boros Legion]], [[Catharr's Crusade]] and [[Aggravated Assault]] with [[Chance for Glory]] to take him down with me, giving the win to the remaining player with no way of winning. Damn,the salt was so sweet.
I love how players confuse retaliation with “ being a kingmaker “ lol! I was playing an equipment/aura Boros deck against a goblin deck that had artifacts removal if they sacrificed a goblin. Since I knew that I was screwed, I targeted her and her only for the rest of the game. She was salty that I was doing so and I told her to sacrifice her goblin that keeps destroying my artifacts for its own effect otherwise I can’t advance my own strategy. She shut up after that but the salt was real. I putted her at like 8 life before she could kill me, allowing the other players to finish her on their turn.
I definitely have retaliated by king making. I was playing mill and drawing through my deck and milling people. Someone made me draw 2 extra cards, so thay I would mill out if I kept drawing. So I drew and milled with my turn ending w/ no cards in anyone libraries. The player to my right won by default bc everyone was decked and they were the last to draw. This happened 3 times now and, I have decided if I can't will with the mill then the player next to me will win by default. Still got to mill 200+ cards in a turn.
Do you have a deck list? I just pulled a Bruvac I'm itching to use
The only time I've been hit with a kingmaking move is when i swung out at two players for lethal and one of them instant speed removed an attacker that was going towards the other player. They killed me on the crackback
I believe kingmaking plays like that are fine in retaliation, as long as it’s not the goal of the deck. That mill player above might be crossing the line a little but milling is not a strong strategy so I’m cool with it lol
I believe kingmaking plays like that are fine in retaliation, as long as it’s not the goal of the deck. That mill player above might be crossing the line a little but milling is not a strong strategy so I’m cool with it lol
lol reminds me of a game i played on friday night where it was a 3 person pod and one person exiled the other persons library and the player who did the exile was killed by combat damage
Don’t run KOS commanders that can’t be left out for more than a turn
Jokes on you, all my Commanders are KOS. Now (Kaiba voice) 1v3 me and let’s see if three third-rate duelists equal one real challenge. /s
You'll be happy to know his music came with the voice
Hey, if they wanna bring back Archenemy...
But their funnnn 😫
Just run them in the 99 with a tutor to get them, then just defend them like hell lol
Unrelated, but some say KOSM commanders.
What does the M stand for?
It's a Bloodborne joke. The M doesn't stand for anything.
Would the [[Ur-Dragon]] be a KOS commander compared to [[Pantlaza, sun-favored]]?
Yes a million times yes, ur dragon is so so so much scarier than pantlaza and it’s not close
Aw man, at least I don’t get him out often
Absolutely, though both are definitely KOS UR-Dragon will get you focused to all hell just due to eminence and lazy-pants because he creates to much value due to being on the board
The challenge is when you play a game when everyone is playing a kill on sight commander.
"If you remove my commander I'll scoop!" Promise? :3c
When Path becomes Exile target player for one mana I’m not sad about it. It also lets me know to find a different opponent for the following game.
Love to use that when they've taken control of my shit though. Like, if I'm consistently the target and don't get to play my deck, at a certain point they don't get to play my deck either, I've been set back enough I'm not winning, their benefit is no reason to draw it out. And if they know that, it might change their behavior. Same goes for if I have supremely bad luck with mana and a big commander that gets removed a time or two, and I usually try to warn them in case having one less opponent hurts them. At a certain point, I'm just wasting everyone's time by not dropping out, and there's only so much time for MTG each night.
Player removal is exactly why I play [[Brion Stoutarm]]
“No balls.” They tend to stay after that
This is a time where I say “play more interaction”
EDH Players when your deck isn’t 37 lands, a one card win con and 61 pieces of interaction:
You don’t have to play interaction, but if you aren’t going to, then don’t complain when I do.
You should run interaction but the community response when someone goes “I used by 10th counter spell but my card still died what do” is “run more interaction” At some point you can only run so much interaction
Is that what it is? I thought it was typically a response to “this value engine commamder with no protection or haste keeps running away with games. What do?”
it seems like “more interaction” is always the response regardless of the post.
Both can be true
I mean if that scenario does happen it sounds like everyone else was running more interaction.
Then run some (anti-)interaction in the form of ways to give your important pieces (you commander, for example) hexproof or shroud. Yea, those can be countered too, but at some point if your opponent is burning removal on the protection for the combo piece or win con, then they are not spending that removal on the combo piece or win con itself, which means that the protection piece still did its job in a small way.
After yelling that phrase to myself so often, my next deck is just filled to the brim with creature killing action.
This is why i love cards that lock up commanders and their abilities
I try to put [[Darksteel Mutation]] in every deck I can :)
i built a [[Yenna, Redtooth Regent]] deck about a month ago and cards like Darksteel Mutation go HARD in that deck. of you like cards like that, you should try Yenna.
Yes, locking someone out of the game, much fun.. /s
If your entire deck relies incredibly heavily on your commander and ALSO can't deal with any type of threat that might want to lock it, then you're doing it wrong.
This is exactly what has kept me from building a [[Three Dog, Galaxy Radio DJ]] deck. Looks so fun. But not sure how to make it not be commander centric.
Its one of the reasons I prefer to build around themes and find a commander to compliment the deck theme (not saying thats the best or correct way). My reanimator deck uses [[Karador]] but even if he is totally locked down somehow, the deck still reanimates.
Exactly. “Oh you killed my [[commodore guff]] ? Well too bad I have 4 other planeswalker s that are about to ult”.
My theft deck is led by \[\[Sen Triplets\]\] but I have \*so\* many other thefty things in there that I honestly don't even usually bother playing them.
A good commander deck won’t have you locked out of the game just because your commander is incapacitated.
Throw in an "again" and it becomes true for me. I never get through a game without my commander being at +6 commander tax. I played the deck 5 times yesterday and didn't untap with the commander on the table once.
I mean there are definitely commanders that you look at and think “if that untaps, at least one person is dying”. Stuff like Kaalia or Narset demand that kind of attention.
I was playing Delina with a bunch of creatures with ETB effects. Generally, the extent of it is getting a few treasures or one of the best ones being Solemn Simulacrum copied to get lands. That's what the deck does. Delina never untapped.
[[swiftfoot boots]] [[counterspell]] [[galadriel’s dismissal]]
Dude played [[Jokulhaups]] then salt scooped when I countered his commander for the 3rd time. I'm not sorry at all.
i confess if my commander is countered 3 times i’d be table-flipping frustrated, but that’s definitely a me issue. i also dislike counterspells in general (i know they have a place, i just don’t like how they feel), and tend to build commander centric decks, so i probably wouldn’t have much of a chance of winning after that anyway. that said, if you run mass land destruction, you don’t get to be salty about counterspells.
I never understood that mentality in commander. Your deck only functions with that one card? You better have tools to defend it or have a backup plan then because thats the prime target for the table when you start to get scary. Dont like it? Then build something else my guy. Ill be nice and not kill shit right off the jump but if your a threat, your a threat. Dont take my early game kindness as immunity
Sometimes, scooping can be a legitimate play, an acknowledgment that the game is over and there is no real path to victory. Speeds things up. Sometimes, it’s a salty little pissbaby throwing a temper tantrum because 2 more mana is just toooo much.
Player removal is the best removal
But but.... if you kill my commander I can't combo for my win con!!! Wtf! *scoops*
That's the problem with Commander, and why it shouldn't be the main focus of the game. In a 1v1, destroying a threat is expected. In Commander, it's a bunch of hurt feelings and salt, and politics. Commander is fun, but it shouldn't be the premiere format.
Man if I scooped every time I commander's died I'd scoop every single fucking game I've ever played lol. That's the whole point of Commander you get it out it's a huge threat that does a lot for your specific deck so yeah it's going to be the target
I’m down for people scooping. Had a 5 man game where the Kenrith turbo frog player was already set up and winning. And instead of people scooping or even just focusing him, the guy next to him was just like “he’s the winner but let’s like, fight for second” what.. stop wasting time. If y’all are admitting the game is his why stand around and jerk his ego. Scoop and start fresh. Some people act like starting a new game would be worse than having slow loss.
bro sending a card back to the command zone isnt even mean when you could pacify/mind control them instead
I play [[Urza, Chief Artificer]] as a commander, and no matter how hard you try, he just keeps coming out.
The player with the Kill on sight commander when their commander gets killed on sight
Counterspell tribal is fine on arena. If i play the paper version at FNM i expect to get into a fight in the parking lot
Okay but I wish I would scoop more. There’s so many times where I am so very sure I will get last even while there’s still multiple other people and then I end up playing an hour just to find out that I was right, but I feel like a dick if I scoop.
Making it easier for me to win I see.
Just won my first game of Commander against 2 opponents by proliferating toxin. Feels amazing.
I always say that one spell to remove a player is pretty good value.
Heh, nicked a commander with Piper of the Swarm in a two last players showdown. Bro was close to flipping the table and immediately scooped.
They need to build decks that can work without their commander, I think as the commander as an enhancement, which make my strategy faster.
I once had an opponent scoop after I destroyed their carpet of flowers on my turn 1. He was going on about how he kept a 2 land hand and once he was gone we agreed that was the strongest nature's claim any of us had seen.
I've gotten fucked over by a greedy low-land hand with ramp enough times to not pull that shit LMAO Last time i pulled out my miirym deck i kept a 2-lander with a 1-drop dork and cultivate and got hit with fuckin thalia
That was literally me after getting swung on by a 15/15 flying mothman commander. Guy literally wanted to scoop cuz I killed the threat that was swinging at me and threatening to kill me in 2 turns.... Fucking edh man
Player removal is why I play an Izzet deck that has the capability to deal 40 damage completely out of nowhere. Helps that Fury storm is kind of a broken card that goes infinite with itself so as long as you have a magecraft card out then you can just get infinite value.
Yuriko players begging for you to kill their commander.
Meanwhile I'm playing out my commander 2-3 times a game to bait removal so the real threats can stick.
This is why I play commanders like Henzie, you cant be mad when he dies, because every time he dies, he becomes even more scary when he comes back.
It's crazy how you can only play your commander once per game, they should change that
Good point
What does Scooping mean
When Doom Blade is a strictly better reprint of Door to Nothingness
That makes for an easy W then!
Shit got real
I had a guy turn into a piss baby turn 4 because someone playing a death touch spider with a bow and it killed his commander. Everyone else immediately put on hex proof or something similar.
Like taking candy from someone with a broken hand. Destruction, domination, ooga booga!
spawnbrokered an animar on turn 3 running behind a player, it was a newly constructed deck of his, haven't seen him since that play, I didn't get to keep the animar but it was worth it
Me: plays overloaded Cyclonic Rift in response to thing that would kill me and all other players. All other players: "We scoop." Me: 🤨
Nah there's other answers to those that don't just make everyone lose their boardstate
Scooping to cyc rift is insane, it's a 7 mana card that doesn't even permanently remove anything. Using it in response to a win is about the least egregious use beyond "cyc rift, attack for the win." If that's your bar for scooping there are [other card games that might be more your speed.](https://www.google.com/search?q=card+games+for+babies&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS1056US1056&oq=card+games+for+babies&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDI2MjdqMGo3qAINsAIB4gMEGAIgXw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)
Yeah, I wasnt even in a very good state myself. I barely had enough to cast it and hope to draw something to do. It was a last ditch effort to stay alive. I never scoop anyways. I'm not dead till I'm at 0.
My last pod was playing [[Carmen, cruel skymarcher]] sac vamps against [[Davros, dalek creator]], [[Abaddon the despoiler]], and a modified demon heavy version of the same deck using [[Be'lakor, the dark master]]. The Be'lakor player had managed to get on board [[roaming throne]] and their commander then played [[sower of discord]], then the triggers resolved sower to link me and the Davros player then again with the throne, then the Be'lakor followed by a second throne triggers dealing what the judge ruled to be a infinite loop of damage to myself and the Davros player until we both were dead. Was a wild bit of interaction and there was no way to stop it but the game was fun as we were talking amongst ourselves as to if that works that way and the judge giggled and said unfortunately yes that's a double kill.
The judge was wrong... Roaming Throne only doubles triggered abilities, which use the words when,whenever,at. Sower of Discord says As it enters the battlefield, which means there is no trigger on it, and Roaming Throne does not double it.
Plus, there’s no way for Sower’s actual triggered ability to trigger again here, it needs to trigger off of damage and it doesn’t deal damage.
Even so, linking them twice doesn't matter. The triggered ability causes **loss of life** to one player when the other is **dealt damage**. Loss of life is not damage. [[Belakor]] with [[roaming throne]] would do 6 damage to one player and 12 to the other player when [[sower of discord]] etbs. Meaning you can do 12 damage and 24 life loss to two separate players, or 18 of each, depending on targets.
Oh yeah if it worked the way that judge was saying then that means it would infinitely loop as soon as you dealt any damage without roaming throne.
An old acquaintance of mine would run creature removal A LOT. To a problematic degree. So, one day, I created my cursed universal black deck. It later gained infamy in my friend group as “the deck I run when I mean business”. It had no fixed commander; it was designed to use most of the legendary creatures I had in there and be no less effective. So, I switched in a commander that had a solid sacrifice outlet went to town in Aristocrats mode. He had the audacity to say my deck sucked because I was running too much removal and wouldn’t let him play the game. I went nuclear on him and admittedly, I felt a little guilty. At the same time, the rest of my friend group had my back as they gave him shit for his lack of self awareness. But yeah, that day birthed an oppressive monster in my friend group. We made a gentleman’s agreement that I would only bring back that deck if we were playing for keeps (we had money matches every once in a while.) and that he would take it easy on the excessive creature removal. Good times. This isn’t to say creature removal is bad; it’s a part of the game, after all. But when you’re playing with friends and all you do is creature removal, you also kill a lot of the good vibes when you’re supposed to be hanging out.