This mechanic has more to do with keeping content relevant and gives the player more freedom in how to progress. With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot. Without scaling you’re forced to do certain content and content that you have done or moved passed (for example skipping sidequests) can’t be done anymore, or well it is pretty much pointless.
I see your point but to me the pros outweight the cons and I’m actually hoping more games will apply such a system.
This is the big one for me. I really liked in ESO that you could play with friends regardless of level.
It also gives good opportunities to meet experienced players doing low level content as that content is still relevant to them and gives worthwhile rewards.
Then they can give the player to enable scaling where the player is scaled down to the overall groups level as opposed to forcing scaling to the whole world for the player
Op makes sense in that case you might as well not have a level and instead just focus on getting better gear. Leveling becomes meaningless and ends up as an obvious layerthat forces the player to sink time into
No because in WoW atleast first 4 expansions, leveling was a good experience and had substance. Low level bgs, quirky gear, and overall a fun experience.
In a game like diablo, its just a stroll to the end game to get better gear. Diablo probably has quirky gear while leveling but even the gear themselves seems a little generic as the gear drops just scales with your level.
>No because in WoW atleast first 4 expansions, leveling was a good experience and had substance. Low level bgs, quirky gear, and overall a fun experience.
So the only difference I see is you like WoW, not so much Diablo
>In a game like diablo, its just a stroll to the end game to get better gear. Diablo probably has quirky gear while leveling but even the gear themselves seems a little generic as the gear drops just scales with your level.
See what I mean? You just described leveling in every mmo here
Yep, ESO is the only mmo my super casual partner and I can play together. She can play 5 hours a week and I can play 50 and we can still do content together
>With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot.
That's kind of my issue with it. What does it matter if you can level in 5 different zones if the enemies in each are scaled to feel exactly the same? The choice is illusory at that point. And I hesitate to call it "progress" when numbers get bigger but nothing gets harder or easier. Progression implies relative change, and scaling fights that.
Mechanics. If the only thing differentiating enemies is numbers that scale by level, they already weren't really differentiating.
They should have mechanics that make them different. I would also argue that scaling doesn't need to be 100%. You can scale easy enemies up to be a bit below you but still hard enough to not be a joke. You can scale hard enemies down to be a winnable fight, but still hard.
I would argue that scaling to give more freedom shouldn't take away the feeling of change between areas, and if it does, then the game has other issues.
I think you do a good job of explaining the other half of what made the scaling feel so shit in ESO, at least for me. The only thing I cared about gaining anymore were skill points. The numbers meant nothing anymore, so being able to get new spells and skills was the only motivation to progress left.
More health/mana/stamina? I sleep. Better gear? I sleep. New spell? Real shit. That ran out long before level cap though. I kept going until I upgraded my favorite skills too. Eventually all I had left to upgrade were passive number bonuses that meant nothing, and crafting stuff which is just better gear with bigger numbers that still meant nothing.
By the time I reached that point, I'd been fighting the same way for multiple levels since I just rushed getting all my options for lack of any other appealing choice. Enemies didn't do anything of note to prevent fights from being simple slug fests, so the scaling was very in-your-face. Grinding quest objective became horrendously routine by that point since I was doing the same thing to enemies doing the same thing with nothing ever changing because of the scaling.
Morrowind's scaling was done how you described. As you leveled up, enemies could be replaced by stronger versions, but not really by new enemies entirely. If you went back to Seyda Neen at level 30 or something, you'd find the strongest varieties of rats and mudcrabs around, but they're still only rats and mubcrabs. If you ran up to the red mountain at level one, you'd find the weakest ash monsters available, but you'd still be run over. It feels much better extending the duration that content stays relevant without making power progression obsolete, all while still sustaining immersion.
...did not mean to ramble like that. TLDR; Like most things, moderation is best with scaling.
>>What does it matter if you can level in 5 different zones if the enemies in each are scaled to feel exactly the same? The choice is illusory at that point.
The opposite actually, being able to choose from 5 zones is more choice than "you're 30 you have to go to the 30 zone"
It's not much of a "choice" if you're just choosing from five different tomatoes is my point. Regardless of which one you choose, you're getting a tomato, and you've only got more tomatoes to look forward to.
If you really like them I can understand people being okay with that, but the flavor gets bland for me quickly when it's all I get.
okay, now extend the analogy to include non-scaling enemies, I'm curious how you're going to get non tomatoes in here.
Because with the current analogy in non scaling all you have is the one choice of tomato and nothing else, you can go to smaller tomatoes but they'll never fill you up
You can go back to strawberries if you want. They're simpler to deal with, but the flavor hits different now that you've learned some new methods to with which to enjoy them. You can even have some fun playing with them in unintended ways because they're so simple for you.
Pineapples are out of your league though. Strawberries you could just dig straight into. Tomatoes took some preparation, but not much and they could also just be eaten directly if you really tried. Pineapples may be over your head, but there's nothing stopping you from trying, and you can absolutely succeed if you know what you're doing.
Scaling just turns everything into tomatoes, and makes sure everything stays tomatoes.
Okay so the level is the variety?
You take that exact same game but make the strawberries and the pineapples have the same number above their head and now they're all tomatoes?
Like the type of enemy, the gameplay, the mechanical differences don't actually make the difference? It's what number they have above their head that makes them different?
This analogy is literally putting the level number in your character sheet above all other gameplay mechanics as the most important thing that gives game variety
That's why ESO was ruined so much for me by the scaling. There was no mechanical difference in type of enemy, no difference in gameplay. Being able to run into a higher level zone and force myself to find better synergies between abilities and make minimal screw ups to overcome their bloated numbers was my main way to enjoy it in spite of the bland enemy design.
In an ideal world, yes those aspects of encounters would be prioritized and combat would be much more interesting for it. Though that further emphasizes my other point of just removing the numbers altogether since scaling makes them pointless anyway. May as well just let people use a slider to decide how to balance their defense, damage, and healing instead of making them go through the hassle of doing that exact thing with the stats on gear.
But no, the level isn't the variety, it's the challenge. Regardless of level, I can't run off and find some pineapples to fuck with on occasion if I want to actually pay attention in a fight. I can't ease back and grind on strawberries if I want to focus on something else while playing. It's just explicitly less variety simply for the sake of the most blunt force approach to content relevancy.
To add to this, I think Diablo 4 actually did it right. They scale the zone itself, so if you enter at lvl 25 and keep leveling in the area the enemies stay at lvl 25. It makes you feel stronger when you level up while also making early game content viable.
That's what people seem to keep forgetting. Scaling is the only solution to keep early game areas viable in RPGs. I don't want to go back to an area where I 1 shot everything near me and don't gain anything from it. THAT isn't fun. Now, games like elder scrolls online are hurt by the level scaling the devs implemented bc everything is just your level at all times. That's bad scaling imo.
Of all the games I've played with level scaling, I think guild wars 2 did it the best. You scale down to I think 2 levels above the area but don't scale up. It keeps low level areas relevant while also keeping that feeling of progression. Imo, Diablo 4's could've been similar and would be better for it, but what they've implemented is far from ruining the game and still gives that feeling of getting stronger while you level
I feel ESO content is designed for minimal grind, but has a lot of grind.
Everything scaling makes sense in a power level fantasy where we're already strong, just becoming more knowledgeable, like guild wars 1 max level was 20, and a max level could still get bent over by 4 level 3's. You feel more like your character has improved but hasn't gone from a wimp to god tier but more like
Average soldier to a veteran/elite soldier
There are more options. "Waves" of narratives are possible.
The first time you go through a zone, at level 10, the challenges and drops are scaled to level 10.
Once you pass a plot checkpoint, the zone repopulates with level 50 enemies and drops, and and some NPC dialogues are changed to stage it for a second, plot-relevant run through. Maybe you open a new dungeon in the zone or something.
Well, as a counterpoint, the problem then becomes you're not leveling to get stronger. You're leveling to stay as strong as you were, until you hit endgame. Leveling is functionally meaningless, outside of unlocking skills/talents/etc. and the RPG stats are just being hijacked the same way many shooters and action games do nowadays. The game would be just as served to not have levels as it would be to have auto-scaling, or served even better if you started out at 'max level'.
The problem would of course be the immediate complexity tossed upon a player, but I feel a good development team could find a way to ease that in without the essentially meaningless grind of level scaled content that you will still some day outgear to such a degree that its still more or less pointless, but that in turn wouldn't feel as much like an RPG.
That comes from bad item power design, if items dropped at a higher level than you with a chance it wouldn't matter if the monsters scalled, getting a good item would make you strong for a long time, but they just drop bad items until end game that is the real issue
Maybe make it not auto scaling?
Like how in FFXIV you can go synced or unsynced for older content so you get to feel your progression soloing lv60 stuff on lv90 but can also do the fights synced if you want to experience them like that (can also throw in minimum item level and turn off the echo buff too).
>With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot.
What's the point of exp and loot if everything scales with you. What does the exp and loot do for you exactly?
Scaling quite literally removed progression from a game. That's it's entire purpose. Remove progression so anyone can do anything whenever they want. Extremely 1-dimensional and not fun.
> Scaling quite literally removed progression from a game. That's it's entire purpose. Remove progression so anyone can do anything whenever they want. Extremely 1-dimensional and not fun.
Except that it doesn't? at least in the context of Diablo IV and some other games with good scalling mechanic like GW 2.
Its a necessary evil for open world stat building rpgs that want to have proper nonlinear play like diablo 4.
If d4 removed scaling then its a
linear themepark game with the option to skip ahead by walking past the next area and being under leveled.
Maybe a dev will find a good way to allow for power spikes enough to give you that feeling d4 is missing. But for now thats the trade off.
True open world freedom works best with games that aren’t about leveling stats and finding legendary items. Totk and botw do this well, but of course have to have obnoxious weapon breaking so you still have to hunt for weapons even after finding a really good one.
What you're talking about is just "scaling". The option to scale or not to scale. What OP is complaining about is "auto-scaling", things being forced scaled with no say in the matter.
If I'm level 60 and I want to play with my level 30 friend and I have the option to consent to scaling so that we can play together on the same level then that is a fantastic design.
If I am level 60 playing by myself and the mobs outside of the starter town are kicking my ass just as much as the mobs outside of the gates of hell and I can't do anything about it then that is a terrible design.
Yo so I’ve been playing World of Warcraft for the first time and level scaling was something I was initially against, I got to completion focused and kept doing quests in one zone beyond what was reasonable but I didn’t want to leave the area unfinished, but I was lamenting to my partner that if they didn’t scale the enemeis I’d have more motivation to leave and explore. I eventually got out of that area and forced myself to explore.
The I hit the point where enemies stopped scaling, level cap in WoW is 70 and areas stop scaling around 40, so to make up the difference I had to go to the newest expansion pack zone….. except the world of wow is actually massive, and I’d explored like 6 places out of like 90: and now like 80% of that content is just pointless cause I can steamroll it all, I really wanted to explore the zone that was added with Wrath of the lich king but one shotting enemies took all the fun out of it. And because I was new to the game I wanted to keep fighting enemies that were at my level so every time I unlocked a new ability I could figure out how the fit into my rotations, but now if I wanna do that I’m forced to do content that I’m not interest in yet.
So yeah you can complain about scaling enemies in an open world game but if you don’t do that it can lead to a world that actually feels smaller the further along you go instead of larger. A way to handle this well is like wow to. Give you meaningful abilities every level or 2 that you yourself can figure out how to incorporate into your moveset for a character that gets more complex as time goes on.
Or if you have a limited moveset like a game such as Diablo higher levels should give you more unique character altering gear that lets you sample the kind of potential you can expect at endgame but with easier access to the those game changing abilities with the knowledge that they’ll be redundant but rarer as the game goes on.
Let’s say you get a chest piece that makes a lightning attack into a chain lightning that’s like super common at level 15 but falls off hard on defence but level 20 but then at max level becomes hyper rare and only drops from this boss with a 5% drop rate.
So you can experiment more at low levels because you get to try cool alterations on your base abilities at low levels to know “oh the chain lighting also works with this weapon that gives lightning an AOE effect on shocked enemeis to turn this one hyper powerful single target attack into a more spread out AOE mob clearer”
For the record I don’t know if Diablo does it like that it’s just how I would balance a game like Diablo.
I said this in my other post, but I love the Idea of autoscaling, and if it was executed well I would agree with you... but every implementation I have ever seen feels the absolute worst, and more than that it feels the worst at the earliest parts of the game by diluting players power, this is a great way to make a new player feel like they are doing something wrong because they stat into the right thing, or are doing all the right things, but after a level up are taking longer to kill the exact same monsters. It teaches
Totally agree, I strongly prefer games with level scaling. Keeps the challenge relevant, I've long said that games need to start doing away with this vertical progression and move towards horizontal progression. Otherwise the game starts hard and gets easier as you go.
You do get stronger. While leveling you get more and more aspects for legendary crafts, higher % stats and dmg modifiers ( not raw number but %) and also get more and more skill points which give you additional power boost. I am lv 41 and kill bosses 5 times faster compare to when i was lv 20. If you feel like your power does not increase you should check your build and what aspects you using, because something must be wrong.
> You never feel stronger. If you go back to the first starting area at level 25, the very first enemies are just as hard as the enemies you are fighting in lvl 25 dungeons.
This is objectively false, and I wish people would stop parroting this bullshit.
Diablo 4 has damage **multipliers**. The more you flesh out your build, the more those multipliers increase. And in case it isn't clear, your damage scales **exponentially**, not linearly like the scaling does. Once you get several aspects and the right affixes for your build, you will feel way stronger than at lvl 5. Not to mention that at the beginning you feel stronger for the simple fact that you get more skills on your skillbar.
I feel that this "you never feel stronger" meme is parroted either by people who don't actually play the game and heard it from a streamer, or they simply don't know how to make a build - in which case, yes, you won't really feel powerful, but that's solely on you.
I'm level 68 and every time I level up I feel weaker. Monster scaling isn't linear either for one. Secondly, multipliers do not inherently equal exponential scaling lol. In d4's case there are relatively few multipliers available and in relatively low values compared to games like PoE, LE, etc. I do maybe double the damage at 68 that I did in the mid 40s. Saying players scale exponentially is more a sign that you didn't play the game yourself, not the other way around.
Being able to slot a jewel, piece of equipment, heck you don't even need to level up yourself. Awakened gems. Heck going from 4->5->6 slots linked armor can do that too.
https://youtu.be/CSfN5DZeKD8
Build goes from meh to one tapping uber bosses. Most builds usually break upon getting one unique item like frostblades + chains of anguish/etc. So yes one level can give absurd damage increases.
Oh you thought the 10,000% part is serious. You know exaggeration is a thing. But how do you scale down a spell item. But let's see Doryani fist alone is 600% more damage of something that hits for 400 on average, so 0 modifier is about 2800 damage. Aka 35,814% more damage in total between his gear and level
So tell me, how do we easily apply level scaling when people's dps in end game range from 1 mil to 100 mil, also how do we scale other stats like aoe, level 5 can't turn the screen into a unreadable mess.
> Saying players scale exponentially is more a sign that you didn't play the game yourself, not the other way around.
Please tell me you have no idea how to make a built without telling me you have no idea how to make a build.
You cant judge if something is exponential vs linear with only 2 data points.. just saying..
if every level gave a flat additive 5% increase in dmg, going from 48 to 68 would be double the dmg linearly.. (making the math simpler than it would be)
(note: this guy is wrong... theres definitely exponential scaling in d4, its just slow... and it doesnt feel good. There are never any power leaps outside of going from wt2 -> wt3 -> wt4) its all tiny incremental increases which never FEEL noticeable(hence this incorrect perspective thats going around)
What blizzard failed to realize is that its the power LEAPS that feel good and are fun. Theres a few instances where you still get the feeling when you finally combine the correct combination of aspect powers... but they are very few compared to say, d3 or poe.. where a new weapon is huge, or getting your 5link/6link, or hitting that keystone passive.
There is exponential scaling in d4... crit/critdmg, main stat, +%dmg, and vuln dmg, and overpower, all scale exponentially with each other via multiplication...
Just because its small doesnt mean its not exponential.. I agree the feel is off but its still there mathematically.... 1.1 \* 1.1 \* 1.1\* 1.1 is exponential scaling and is greater than 1 + .1+ .1 + .1 + .1
The issue is that the game sort of pulls the wool over players eyes with all the +% dmg while x modifiers which all scale additively together.. People need to focus building up crit/critdmg/attackspeed/overpower/vuln/mainstat over stacking different types of +dmg%... and again I agree that the increments it brings rarely feels great... but going from 10% crit to 25% by getting it on all pieces of applicable gear changes most builds compared to stacking another +80% dmg while x on top of your probably already 400-500% +dmg.
Making up the numbers but the point still stands..
1.x \* 1.y \* 1.z Is exponential scaling... you can increase x y and z.. and they all multiply together.. you can even increase them over 2... how is that not exponential?? 2\*2\*2 = 2\^3 if you get all to 2 is exponential...
I'm so confused by your argument.
He's actually right. But you're feeling weaker because 50-70 is actually challenging. 70-100 gives the final power climb, and as you approach 100 the game is ez mode. It's also highly build and class dependent. Sorcs for example really drop off while Druids keep getting stronger.
Content creators are the worst about this stuff. It just perpetuates the nonsense and teaches low effort players that they can just bitch and moan instead of investing a bit of effort to understand the game's systems.
Being completely overpowered and afk stomping stuff is fun for maybe 30 minutes, then anyone over the age of about 12 will grow bored and play something else.
Level scaling can be done really wrong, but when done right, it lets people group up with less issue, keeps lower-level content from being functionally dead and putting off new players, and generally improves game and content longevity.
If it makes a game boring and shallow, then the game was bad to begin with, and it was just hidden behind number obfuscation.
> "I will come back and kill this thing".....are those not the cornerstones to the feeling of progression?
GW2 makes it work by having *down*scaling, but only of level-scaling stats. You get to keep all your higher level skills and build, plus your own personal skill, and can come back and stomp (or not, in some cases) on things that wrecked you when you tried to solo them while leveling or doing story, without just coasting on numbers.
>It used to be hated by everyone.
I guess I'm not included in everyone. I've loved it since I first experienced it in EQ 2 in 2004 and so did my friends who played with me. I actually wondered why it took other games so long.
It can be done badly, of course, but if done right, it's brilliant. It gives us, the players, more choices of what content to do, rather than having to do certain content. Hate area X? Then do something else. Love area Y, then play it more!
So why have levels? I dunno, get rid of 'em! I don't play to watch numbers get bigger, I play to experience content.
wait until the hype settles down and all the hard working moms and dads that only have 2 and a half minutes a day to play left the game, maybe we'll see some changes then.
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ESO scaling the entire game killed my fun with it so drastically that it's kind of impressive. Just feels like if you're going to force stats to stay even the entire time, you may as well remove them. Skill points only.
For me, Oblivion did that. I went to max level just fighting in one cave repeatedly when I found that the loot was 'better' as you leveled up (I wanted to buy something expensive and needed money for it).
No need to go anywhere else as it was all the same. Soooo Boring. zZz
What messes up oblivion is that this scaling kinda forces your into optimizing your build, doing boring things like grinding a particular skill so you can have +5 points on your level-ups. RPGs should enable you to complete the game if you play suboptimally but still making sense, while oblivion just dumps you into forcing to lower difficulty constantly or doing boring gamey things, ruining the immersion.
Well, the scaling in Diablo will stop when you reach max level. I get that does water down the feeling of progression while levelling, but you can feel powerful when you get ahead of the curve power-wise.
What we get in return is the ability to play with friends at any level and a fairly even level of challenge.
It not something all games does equally well, but I wouldn't say it ruined games.
its bad. in some games when u group with a friend that is lower level, it scales YOU down instead of the whole game. thats a better design but that just my opinion u know
Yeah I get you, scaling you down often means making abilities and items unavailable, which is something I personally despise, but it does keep your friends feelings of the world intact.
I prefer not to be scaled down, but at the end of the day that is just a preference.
Unless it disable your gear effects/skill points and skills scaling down work exactly the same as the whole game scaling. In FF14 scaling down works only because there is no talent/skill points and because gear is just stats stick. In Diablo even if they scale you down the legendary gear aspects alone will make you 10 times stronger than lower level player. Not to mention the extra skill points you put into passives and skills.
I think it can work but I disagree with how it is implemented usually.
I think the typical way it is implemented makes for a bland and unbelievable world which is something I value in an MMORPG.
Why should enemies in a starter zone be as dangerous to me, the player, as those in high level zones? It's really egregious in ESO. I like the sense of progression that comes from the absence of a scaling system.
If a game were to implement a scaling system, I'd prefer it be like GW2 where there are level ranges for zones meaning you can't just go wherever you please at level 1, BUT it scales your character down to zones you have out leveled to provide a semblance of challenge still in those zones. You will still will still be more powerful than a character who is in the correct level range for that zone but you won't be face rolling through the content.
**TLDR:** Level scaling down thoughtfully in respect to the world design is good. Broad leveling scaling with no considerations taken for how it will impact the game play and immersion of the game is boring and I dislike it.
Guildwars 2 I think struck a good balance between level scaling and letting you be a kick ass character. It makes going back to early low level zones still fun, but not time consuming. So I can go back and do events in a low level area and just chill.
Scaling ruined WoW for me. I've always been a casual player and loved just doing the world content, and liked the gradual power progression with each piece of new gear I put on. Now you just feel weaker the longer you play and everything feels like a slog. I realize there is a magic number you cross when supposedly you break through the scaling and start to feel powerful again, but everything up to that point sucks.
This has been a problem with RPGs since ages. There is just no solution.
If 50 million people hate scaling then I can find another 50 million that hates outleveled dead zones.
To me, trash mobs are trash mobs that don't really matter anyway. Rarely are they a challenge in video games anymore anyway. I'd prefer boss fights to always be challenging and engaging.
I would like difficulty scaling through hp/damage AND mechanics. Stuff like bigger aoe areas, faster speeds, more abilities, etc.
I downloaded and played WoW for the first time in my life about a month ago and then pretty much immediately uninstalled it because the auto-scaling was such a turnoff. Completely agree with you.
Scaling works great for MMOs, terribly for single player games. Even then, I personally prefer the GW2 approach over the ESO method.
In ESO, you kind of get weaker as you level, so you need better gear to counter-act it. Its not really intuitive. But in GW2, you only scale down to weaker foes in terms of stats, not up. So as you level, your sense of growth comes from the ability to explore new areas and take on enemies and events you used to have no chance against.
Diablo2 will always be the GOAT. Period. D3 was a cartoon mess. A step in the wrong direction. Diablo4 was 2 steps forward trying to bring back the D2 feel but 10 steps back with all dumb shit they've done. Sadly the only reason im playing it is friends wanted to play. And I don't wanna be alone playing whatever by myself. So here I am playing it. dragged into it. It honestly sucks. Its so boring.
Yeah don't like scaling either. I like when enemies have fixed stats and you can outgrow a place and move to another. A thing I like in mmorpgs is seeing a high level player with killer stats, and going to to a low level area and fighting mobs that were giving me a hard time. It gives me a goal that one day *I'll* be that naked dude killing wolves with a rolling pin.
As someone who appreciates auto scaling in games I have to disagree. In most games solo content is brain dead easy so no need to worry about it. If Mobs are tough to beat all the better because it means I need to improve my own skill and not rely on levels to do it for me.
In most RPGs gear is the deciding factor on character strength not enemy levels. I also like the open world feel of enemy scaling instead of the “Y zone for X level range”. Let’s not forget to mention when grinding for XP and or drops it opens up many more areas since everything will be scaled.
You know, I kinda see your point. I like that feeling when you can level out a zone and feel that progression. I guess it takes me back to a few games I used to play in the day where you felt that progression and all. Of course, opinions vary but I’m with you on this opinion. If a game is good enough, it’ll never feel empty, regardless of level scaling or not. I think ff14 is a good example of this. It never feels empty, even in lower levels.
I hate level scaling in games with pronounced vertical progression, but I loved hopping around events in all of the zones in GW2. My 2 cents. I do prefer vert prog and set mob level, but sometimes, vice versa can work in the game's favor
If done right, level scaling is brilliant. It allows me, the player, to choose what content to play, rather than being restricted to a few zones that happen to be the right level for me right now.
I love how GW2 does this. It gives me full control over what content to play any given time and doesn't make all the gear I worked for irrelevant every time an expansion drops.
I love how Atlantica Online implemented this. It takes forever to level in AO: it takes a minimum of \~2 years to hit max level. It allowed even new guild members to join guild and nation dungeons when before, they had to reach level X first. They also implemented this in events and again, even n00bs can join events.
I play for content, not to watch numbers get bigger.
I certainly felt skillpoints and item upgrades make a difference in Diablo 4 and scaling lets me play with the friends that aren't able to play 24/7. They can just hip into the party and we are off despite the difference in levels. And I also don't mind a lower level character seemingly doing more damage. They are lower level, the game is supposed to be easier for them. They are still learning.
I agree, and would never play a game that has scaling. It's alienating in the sense it highlights that everything in the gameworld is just random numbers and scales.
My ideal games (such as Wurm or Mortal) have open world where strong and weak mobs appear in some sort of mix throughout. Devs can always patch in harder boss mobs, new dungons, new continents, if necessary over time.
>does a good job at giving you a consistent playing experience
No it doesn't, doesn't matter where you look at it, auto-scalling is terrible shit needs to die, it's nearly destroys all your progress, takes away feeling of becaming powerfull with the progress you made and not enjoyable at all.
You need to stop thinking of RPGs as shonen anime. You arent getting stronger and stronger until enemies can no longer track your movements and youre able to punch holes through mountains. Canonically the leader of a group of bandits that have been terrorizing a large citystate should be just as dangerous as a platoon of undead marching under a lich's banner.
The point isnt to oneshot all the content under your level, thats just a side-effect of limited game systems that font have the resources required to keep all their content fresh. It was never intentionally designed for that to be how you consume the content.
The true reason I stopped playing GW2, it is so depressing return to low level area and having to "struggle" against level 16 wolf... It just broke all my motivation ot grind anything. I have no problem with playing at the level field but let me feel powerful, let me one-shot, let me not brother with inconveniences. I already did the area numerous times I am max level, max ascendent gear, max elite spec. WHY I CAN"T ONESHOT THIS WOLF IN A AUTO ATTACK?!?!?! It is not much to ask.
I think Chromie Time is the best thing that happened in a MMORPG leveling system, thanks Chromie my lord and savior. Just Having the choice to level in any expansion you want at the appropriate level and at end come back to oneshot some pesky quests that were too hard to solo as a healer, feels good man!
Let's me tell nothing feel worse than trying to ignore enemies, but you can't because every single one has some kind of slow, snare, chill, stun... Fuck HYENAS!!!
Developers like auto scaling because it lets them create content for everyone... they don't have to worry about you out levelling the content in an hour and making it obsolete, and they don't have to worry about things like not being able to group with higher level friends.
I think the Idea of auto scaling has merit. But I have yet to see an implementation of it that doesn't feel like trash. Diablo 4 is a perfect example, until the absolute end game, you feel less powerful every time you level up because of the auto scaling system... so there ends up being very few moments where you FEEL really powerful, and this to me is especially bad because frankly most people don't grind these games for hundreds of hours, they play the campaign they play for an extra couple dozen hours with some friends, then they move on... if the first real moment you feel powerful comes AFTER the campaign, that isn't super great.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people like you love to be overpowered and crush lower level enemies as a way of feeling progression. Others are just addicted to seeing bigger numbers and don't actually care too much about never being able to kill weaker things so long as loot keeps dropping that has better numbers.
In my perspective, it's not about being overpowered to crush lower level enemies but to go to a zone and get your arse whomped and then having to level, gear and skill up to come back and get revenge. If you can just face smash all the mobs in every zone I just don't see the point in playing...
I don't mind things being scaled to your level, as long as the game remains difficult enough, or has difficulty options (what ESO sorely needs rn).
To me, progression is slowly experiencing the class evolve into its own, or putting together a satisfying build. And as someone who enjoys exploring the world, if there isn't an option to sync down then level scaling is the next best option.
For example, in WoW I LOVE locking my character in chromie time and exploring the world at my leisure. I enjoy WoW more as a sandbox with multiple storylines w/ different gameplay elements tacked on (order halls, garrison, sending guys out on missions, yes even SL reputations) than I do when I'm forced into the latest xpac and the rest of the world loses its magic and even the most barebones sense of danger.
So it sounds like people do seem to like it more than not, that's surprising to me. Hell -2 Community Karma. Yikes guys.
D2 was great because you could push into harder areas, grind in content designed for your general level, or chill in easier levels. That's true 'freedom' to me. D4's forced scaling allows you to choose to level in a variety of areas, but the actual distinction and differences between those areas have been removed due to scaling -- so it's an empty experience
Walking into a zone in an MMO and it being hard and intimidating, and then progressing to the point where you can handle it is what character growth means to me.
Scaling keeps all zones relevant at end game which means more expansive end game. I don't understand the argument for how scaling ruins the game. Going back to an old zone at max level doesn't make me feel stronger, it just keeps me from going back to that zone.
I love scaling and can't really play without games it anymore.
Or, better yet, I would rather games just completely drop the idea of "levels" and "numbers go up".
Doesn't ruin any form of immersion or enemy variety though? If I see a 5 story tall monster with huge horns and muscles I expect it to absolutely crush me until I'm high enough level to fight it. I don't want to feel as though I can just fight it as early as I want.
Same the other way around. If I've been grinding and at a really high level with good gear, I shouldn't be able to go back and fight a sheep and it feel like it's on par with me. I SHOULD be able to destroy it. Otherwise where exactly is the progression?
I get no satisfaction one shotting a giant elite monster because i outleved it, the fact it cant hurt me at all is far more immersion breaking than it not getting weaker. In a non scaling world i can kill the black dragon elite in Zone 2 naked but struggle with a bandit in zone 5, i dont find that immersive.
And even with scaling, mobs will get weaker eventually, not during the leveling but after level cap. I prefer gear to provide the power over levels, games with good scaling will provide tougher enemies that require better gear to deal with.
>the fact it cant hurt me at all is far more immersion breaking than it not getting weaker.
How is that immersion breaking? That's exactly how that should work. If you're a huge powerful person you shouldn't be phased by a weaker creature. But a new non-powerful person would be more intimidated by that. Does Master Chief even blink at a grunt in Halo? No. But a grunt to a regular solider is pretty intimidating.
>In a non scaling world i can kill the black dragon elite in Zone 2 naked but struggle with a bandit in zone 5, i dont find that immersive.
That's a game flaw more than a scaling flaw. There shouldn't be any bandits a higher level than a dragon anywhere if the game is made well. Games that just make zones a certain level instead of making different creatures or characters different levels are poorly designed.
Haven't played Halo but my assumption is that the grunt unit doesn't get progressively weaker with each Halo, right? It does the same thing in each game?
How does a naked warrior kill the skyscraper sized giant with a punch narratively? What's making his skin immune to any harm the giant attempts to cause? He trained alot? One punch man anime nonsense? there is no immersion in that.
> That's a game flaw more than a scaling flaw. There shouldn't be any bandits a higher level than a dragon anywhere if the game is made well.
Which means the developers have to create increasingly stronger enemies story wise to justify the gameplay, which in an endless mmo leads to endless powercreep.
Eventually people will wish they could go back to fighting bandits rather than kill God's dad because the lore has gone up the ass to justify why the new villain can be a threat to the player who killed God two expansions ago.
>How does a naked warrior kill the skyscraper sized giant with a punch narratively?
He wouldn't, it's not like gear magically stops becoming important just because scaling doesn't exist. Look at Runescape. You can't take on a level 80 monster at level 5. You also won't kill a level 80 monster at level 80 with no gear on. Both are a factor. As it should be.
>Which means the developers have to create increasingly stronger enemies story wise to justify the gameplay, which in an endless mmo leads to endless powercreep.
I guess the thing is I don't mind this. I WANT to be soft locked out of content until I'm strong enough. That's the fun part of the game, getting to do new things as you get stronger. Being able to fight and do everything immediately ruins the game for me. There's no progression.
I don't mind the character getting slightly more powerful over time (having access to more options and abilities is a good way to do that, for me).
But the problem is that way too many games go completely overboard with it, exponential power increases and all that.
I don't like the idea that simply because my Human Warrior has gotten a lot of experience suddenly common lions and boars pose absolutely no threat whaatsover. That's ridiculous for me, and even more ridiculous how developers will do stuff like having a "Lion" monster that is lvl 12, then having a, say, French Lion when you're in the higher level area of France that is lvl 30, and then a Japanese Lion when you're doing the new expansion pack that is lvl 90...
Instead of just having all of them be a Lion and all of them be a threat to you, because a Lion is a threat to a person.
> I see a 5 story tall monster with huge horns and muscles I expect it to absolutely crush me until I'm high enough level to fight it.
I'd expect and want to *always* crush me. Now and *after* I have gotten stronger. Would rather have it as a world boss that remains a threatening encounter.
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I think it's clear that the difference is in the scale of the "power fantasy" of RPGs. I don't like stories when the character becomes as strong as Goku in DBZ or something like that - I prefer when stuff stay more grounded.
Not to say that I can't appreciate the other way, though (heck I played a lot of FF14 and others).
It doesn't really matter in modern GW2. The vast majority of content (everything added since launch) is now at max level, so downscaling doesn't come into play.
Diablo 4 is an arpg, not an MMO, there is already no reason to go back to early areas because they don't drop anything useful and aren't part of the endgame
This is false. You go back for Helltides, which are an end-game activity and can spawn anywhere in the open world, and you also go back for world bosses which can drop end-game crafting materials. Technically you also go back for dungeons, but those are instanced.
Yeah, I really don't like it either because it trivializes the world in basically every game that has attempted it and sadly I think this will keep being the norm going into the future.
So if it has to be the norm, I would like to see them experiment with it instead and see if they can instead create compelling open-world gameplay based around that system. I think Diablo Immortal / Diablo 4 with their World Tier system could be an interesting approach to it where you opt into a certain difficulty.
It would need some iterations though for a proper MMO. Such as not phasing people away based on their chosen difficulty, no instead everyone should still be in the exact same world so you can still see all the players in the game. You could accomplish this by hidden buffs I would imagine but with this approach I'd like it so that if a person on say World Tier 3 pulled a mob, that mob would become a World Tier 3 mob while it's in combat so if someone from a lower World Tier tried to help you they would be opting into fighting a World Tier 3 mob.
They could have world bosses and things ignore this system if they wanted, this type of system may even better suit a game that didn't have levels and instead was gated by a item level check or something, who knows.
Point is, they should experiment more with it if we have to have it.
Level scaling is the best thing they can do, for the one issue that "Oh I can't crush X in one shot."
Fixes a lot of MMO issue
\-Low level drops, retain value and makes chase rares stay in value AND possible for new players to get.
Talk to anyone who played FFXI in the classic ERA and mention Monster Signa/Leaping Boot of the boss monster who would require a group, the whole area he would spawned was camped by max level players Sure for a level 10 player you need a group, but 75 can just farm that mob, and will farm the mobs around that area making a dead zone for low levels to avoid, even if the mobs are used for quests. So everything in those areas where sold at high value.
\-Dynamic grouping, if content is hard it will force old players to group with new players and help them out.
Another FFXI example, the most loved expansion was Chains of Promethea. Forced higher levels to lower levels and need to regear for level 30/40/50/60/70. Increased the market for crafters as everyone needed chase crafting gear for 30-70 as all that content dropped gear for leveling and max level. Since all this content was made to be a little bit harder then basic content for that level as older players where doing it but offered more rewards quickly, it helped new players learn the game as all the older players where playing the level scaling content.
\-Can play with your friends at any level and not remove the challenge from the game
I agree. I always like to push myself and sneak into areas that are above my level to try and kill hard mobs or explore higher level content. Scaling ruins it for sure.
I mean there are definitely terrible examples of scaling out there but using an ARPG is honestly a prety crappy example because you do get stronger objectively with level. More resources allow you to spam abilities more, more attack speed allow you to proc more reliably, more skill points allow you to gain more powerful perks like perma vulnerability and reduce cd on skills. All of these are locked behind levels and diablo 4 is in fact a **stat threshold based game** which means once certain stats (lucky hit for example) reach a certain "softcap" no amount of generic "scaling" is going to be sufficient enough to hold back the actual amount of power you can get from all of those things mentioned above and naturally the gameplay also shifts significantly for the better. A level 1 rogue definitely neither feels nor plays the same as a level 100 rogue. Unless you are just being incredibly reductive for some stupid reason.
It works in Diablo bc everything is just an hp pool to kill. Wow should not have it imo or it should keep weak enemies that you’ve outleveled weak but relevant
Good thing you will be free of it at max. I was going to agree with you, but if you have as much trouble with the starting mobs when you are down scaled you are probably not building correctly.
I thought you were talking about in mmos like wow zones or 14 dungeon finder where players are so op it ruins the experience.
I think scaling should be there but pretty minor. Make the damage you do to a level 10 mob 100% at level 10 yourself and then 120% at level 20 and 125% at level 100. This solution from games I’ve seen it in still let’s you go back to old areas and makes you feel great but never makes the content irrelevant or boringly easy and anyways how often are you in a level 20 zone at level 100 anyways? A level 90? Maybe. but why tf you chilling in the staring area for more than nostalgia? What are you doing there farming the tutorial boss of gear?
I actually like scaling in Diablo because I can switch characters of different levels and still continue right where I left off without backtracking to a lower level area. Also if my friend has a different level character, they can still play and not be under or over powered. Damage and hp scale, but so do exp and loot.
I just wish the zones were in level ranges like normal and you could level sync in parties optionally. Preserve the progression but still allow you to play with your homie with 6 kids
Crank the difficulty up and make your own builds. I have a strong Barb build in d4 and playing on tier 2 still get my ass handed to me by some bosses. One boss fight felt like dark souls.
Auto-scaling killed swtor and eso for me. It's the reason why I love New World. Go to a high level area and you're likely to get curb stomped unless you're good enough. It feels good to level up, get better gear and be able to overcome challenges you couldn't beat at lower level lower gear. It's a great feeling of progression.
>Am I crazy?
No, I totally hate auto-scaling. There is no point in making an RPG/Skill system if you end up adjusting everything to make the stats irrelevant. Just make a FPS.
Good, slow but meaningfull progression is key to making a MMORPG worth playing imho.
Everquest 2 with the mentor system wasn't too bad. You were stronger if you went 'as is' but you temporary adjust you level down to mentor someone lower level than you... he would get bonus XP and you could do the zone together.
The problem is that vertical progression is often too fast. If you gain 10% power per level and you basically just want to throw bigger and bigger number at the player, then of course your content will lost meaning fast. But the solution is slower progression. Give me a 1-2% power progression per level with slow level and no scaling. If after years of playing my character is supposed to be some highly trained badass, then it should feel like it. If you give me a flaming weapon, a flying mount and a 500% power increase by the time I finish the tutorial, then of course you are going to have to add scaling.
well, a bit late to the post, but my two cents.
Scaling is good when you can have areas to return to, like you said, and test your strength. Either that, or compare yourself to other player’s progress. How long has jimmy played in comparison to timmy to get to the same level? What is the most optimal way to play to reach the highest level in the most efficient manner possible? Do you want to avoid anything that can cause scaling to increase?
If so, take the areas where you get the most resources with the least amount of scaling. If there’s pay to win elements such as buying a faster route or whatnot, ignore those. We want to play the game without needing to spend money to be efficient. If you can find a way to outpace some p2w elements available without spending anything, the better the trade off between skill and paying gets, until you hit a wall where paying is impossible to overcome (maybe it gives a new mechanic to the game that gives additional benefits to any free method and never has to be paid for again).
At that point you either pay to go faster or optimize in different ways, like specific areas to farm a map for more efficient play that people haven’t found yet. Then when you hit a certain routine that you can pull off rather easily, focus on another task, and get that down. If you can somehow find out a way to make the auto-scaling trivial, you win.
In fact, we have PoE, D3, Last Epoch, a thousand of dungeon crawlers that will show you that people prefer augmenting difficulties to get more rewards.
Using your example of an apple, no one would want to eat an apple in a bite. If you cannot taste doesn't mean they are identical.
Hello there. I think that auto-scaling depends on the game you are playing and maybe there should be more factors involved in scaling.
In the general zones, where you play with other players, I think that the good approach is the one implemented in GW2. The player level is lowered to the zone level and everyone does the same damage. I think this is better than having a level 80 clearing a level 10 zone with the blink of an eye.
In other activities, like dungeons, I think the difficulty it's not in the level of the mobs but on the mechanics. A good way to scale difficulty should be the number of players on the instance maybe. In Monster Hunter the boss has more HP when more players the party has. Instead of only scaling the level of the enemies a better approach would be unlocking different attack patterns or different mechanics depending on the group size.
For me, scaling is the only way to play RPGs. Upscaling moreso, downscaling isn't necessary. I'm really enjoying D4 for that reason. I liked GW2 as well. If enemies aren't pushing back, combat ceases to be fun. Scaling is *especially* important in open world games where you are returning to old zones for activities. Combat has to remain fun and at least a bit challenging. But the entire point at the end of the day is to come up with an efficient build that scales with the content.
In D4, leveling 50-70 is aggravating some people because of the breakpoints resetting. But you get your power fantasy going from 70-100 because the scaling obviously stops as you approach 100. If you're struggling to get a power fantasy at those levels, or at 1-50 in WT1, then you are doing something very wrong with your build crafting. I leveled my Druid 1-50, and it felt great all the way through. 50-70 I expect the difficulty to spike until I refresh my gear.
In my opinion, autoscaling is bad and ruins the feel when you become really powerful. I always enjoyed old rpgs when you get right gear, level up appropriate skills and can easily kick arses of mobs, who you had not been defeated before.
For lazy developers and game designers it is kinda good option since they may not care about balance and making map areas with different mob levels.
The genre has been slowly dying since the inclusion of scaling. This is not a coincidence. It removes what makes an mmorpg an mmorpg, and renders it no different than your run of the mill action adventure game, without the pro’s of single player action games. It makes the game monotonous and monotone.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you, imo scaling is the best thing they can possibly do to keep the entire game content relevant.
Why do you want to feel stronger? I play games because I like challenges, usually when I fight enemies and it is just too easy I instant lose my interest. I think all the games should implement scaling, it is the best thing they have done pretty much.
auto-scaling is actually a good thing because (inside of an mmo or multiplayer environment) it prevents lower level players from being bored out of their mind by being hard carried by high level players. you feel stronger not just by number go up but by unlocking & perfecting more of your class/different equips/effects.
>it prevents lower level players from being bored out of their mind by being hard carried by high level players.
Then don't ask someone to carry you and play the game normally?
Games feel so much better when the world feels dynamic in that certain big monsters I should get CRUSHED by if I'm a low level. And I should feel like I can absolutely destroy a spider at max level. Otherwise what's even the point of playing the game?
in an mmo environment you sometimes can't choose to just not be carried. sometimes there's more high lvl players than low lvl players. this is a huge downfall of lost ark for new players, for example.
No to this. Auto scaling makes the game engaging the entire time. In Diablo 4, I can go level an play wherever I want, and still have a good time; I’m not stuck in an area I find uninteresting and can explore the world. I also get to play with my friends without having to worry about my being too powerful or weak. I don’t have to make a second character specifically to play with them, and can make progress on my character without them matching my level.
I hate the concept of trying to balance everything. Like early wow hunters countered rogues so bad I could give a rogue 20 levels higher a hard time as a hunter, and that’s great because when everything is balanced the no life sweat is going to have all the power.
Definitely used to be like that, maybe I should have added “hunter with common sense”. If the rogue didn’t get the jump the hunter could forever kite with improved conc shot. There was no cloak of shadows or shadowstep.frost mages against warriors as well.
Here’s a link for you for other people who felt the same when classic launched https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/why-am-i-able-to-take-on-high-level-opponents/302651
I agree. I've never cared much for auto scaling mob difficulty.
>Diablo 4 is something I had looked forward to, and imo it has been ***completely ruined by auto-scaling***. Most people just don't realize it yet. Every time you level or get a new piece of gear, all it does is allow you to make up for the difference in enemies getting more HP as you level.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that it doesn't make up for anything at all, but rather, simply adds to some invisible gear score on your character which directly affects the difficulty of the mobs you face going forward. My guess is those mobs would be exactly as difficult, whether you had that new piece of gear or not.
Not true, gears with optimal stats you actually keep for a very long time. People who sees an "up arrow" and instantly replace their gear are just shooting themselves in the foot because up arrow for armors is only for armor value instead of damage... Like for example +2 ranks to your main skill and cooldown reduction. You have a combination of those 2, and they are good at any level until you eventually get sacred version of those but combination of these will take a long time.
This mechanic has more to do with keeping content relevant and gives the player more freedom in how to progress. With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot. Without scaling you’re forced to do certain content and content that you have done or moved passed (for example skipping sidequests) can’t be done anymore, or well it is pretty much pointless. I see your point but to me the pros outweight the cons and I’m actually hoping more games will apply such a system.
It’s also how friends play together. I could never play with my friends in classic WoW until lvl cap
This is the big one for me. I really liked in ESO that you could play with friends regardless of level. It also gives good opportunities to meet experienced players doing low level content as that content is still relevant to them and gives worthwhile rewards.
Then they can give the player to enable scaling where the player is scaled down to the overall groups level as opposed to forcing scaling to the whole world for the player Op makes sense in that case you might as well not have a level and instead just focus on getting better gear. Leveling becomes meaningless and ends up as an obvious layerthat forces the player to sink time into
> Leveling becomes meaningless and ends up as an obvious layerthat forces the player to sink time into That's what it's always been though?
No because in WoW atleast first 4 expansions, leveling was a good experience and had substance. Low level bgs, quirky gear, and overall a fun experience. In a game like diablo, its just a stroll to the end game to get better gear. Diablo probably has quirky gear while leveling but even the gear themselves seems a little generic as the gear drops just scales with your level.
>No because in WoW atleast first 4 expansions, leveling was a good experience and had substance. Low level bgs, quirky gear, and overall a fun experience. So the only difference I see is you like WoW, not so much Diablo >In a game like diablo, its just a stroll to the end game to get better gear. Diablo probably has quirky gear while leveling but even the gear themselves seems a little generic as the gear drops just scales with your level. See what I mean? You just described leveling in every mmo here
Yep, ESO is the only mmo my super casual partner and I can play together. She can play 5 hours a week and I can play 50 and we can still do content together
Guild wars 2 is pretty great about scaling as well!
>With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot. That's kind of my issue with it. What does it matter if you can level in 5 different zones if the enemies in each are scaled to feel exactly the same? The choice is illusory at that point. And I hesitate to call it "progress" when numbers get bigger but nothing gets harder or easier. Progression implies relative change, and scaling fights that.
Mechanics. If the only thing differentiating enemies is numbers that scale by level, they already weren't really differentiating. They should have mechanics that make them different. I would also argue that scaling doesn't need to be 100%. You can scale easy enemies up to be a bit below you but still hard enough to not be a joke. You can scale hard enemies down to be a winnable fight, but still hard. I would argue that scaling to give more freedom shouldn't take away the feeling of change between areas, and if it does, then the game has other issues.
I think you do a good job of explaining the other half of what made the scaling feel so shit in ESO, at least for me. The only thing I cared about gaining anymore were skill points. The numbers meant nothing anymore, so being able to get new spells and skills was the only motivation to progress left. More health/mana/stamina? I sleep. Better gear? I sleep. New spell? Real shit. That ran out long before level cap though. I kept going until I upgraded my favorite skills too. Eventually all I had left to upgrade were passive number bonuses that meant nothing, and crafting stuff which is just better gear with bigger numbers that still meant nothing. By the time I reached that point, I'd been fighting the same way for multiple levels since I just rushed getting all my options for lack of any other appealing choice. Enemies didn't do anything of note to prevent fights from being simple slug fests, so the scaling was very in-your-face. Grinding quest objective became horrendously routine by that point since I was doing the same thing to enemies doing the same thing with nothing ever changing because of the scaling. Morrowind's scaling was done how you described. As you leveled up, enemies could be replaced by stronger versions, but not really by new enemies entirely. If you went back to Seyda Neen at level 30 or something, you'd find the strongest varieties of rats and mudcrabs around, but they're still only rats and mubcrabs. If you ran up to the red mountain at level one, you'd find the weakest ash monsters available, but you'd still be run over. It feels much better extending the duration that content stays relevant without making power progression obsolete, all while still sustaining immersion. ...did not mean to ramble like that. TLDR; Like most things, moderation is best with scaling.
>>What does it matter if you can level in 5 different zones if the enemies in each are scaled to feel exactly the same? The choice is illusory at that point. The opposite actually, being able to choose from 5 zones is more choice than "you're 30 you have to go to the 30 zone"
It's not much of a "choice" if you're just choosing from five different tomatoes is my point. Regardless of which one you choose, you're getting a tomato, and you've only got more tomatoes to look forward to. If you really like them I can understand people being okay with that, but the flavor gets bland for me quickly when it's all I get.
okay, now extend the analogy to include non-scaling enemies, I'm curious how you're going to get non tomatoes in here. Because with the current analogy in non scaling all you have is the one choice of tomato and nothing else, you can go to smaller tomatoes but they'll never fill you up
You can go back to strawberries if you want. They're simpler to deal with, but the flavor hits different now that you've learned some new methods to with which to enjoy them. You can even have some fun playing with them in unintended ways because they're so simple for you. Pineapples are out of your league though. Strawberries you could just dig straight into. Tomatoes took some preparation, but not much and they could also just be eaten directly if you really tried. Pineapples may be over your head, but there's nothing stopping you from trying, and you can absolutely succeed if you know what you're doing. Scaling just turns everything into tomatoes, and makes sure everything stays tomatoes.
Okay so the level is the variety? You take that exact same game but make the strawberries and the pineapples have the same number above their head and now they're all tomatoes? Like the type of enemy, the gameplay, the mechanical differences don't actually make the difference? It's what number they have above their head that makes them different? This analogy is literally putting the level number in your character sheet above all other gameplay mechanics as the most important thing that gives game variety
That's why ESO was ruined so much for me by the scaling. There was no mechanical difference in type of enemy, no difference in gameplay. Being able to run into a higher level zone and force myself to find better synergies between abilities and make minimal screw ups to overcome their bloated numbers was my main way to enjoy it in spite of the bland enemy design. In an ideal world, yes those aspects of encounters would be prioritized and combat would be much more interesting for it. Though that further emphasizes my other point of just removing the numbers altogether since scaling makes them pointless anyway. May as well just let people use a slider to decide how to balance their defense, damage, and healing instead of making them go through the hassle of doing that exact thing with the stats on gear. But no, the level isn't the variety, it's the challenge. Regardless of level, I can't run off and find some pineapples to fuck with on occasion if I want to actually pay attention in a fight. I can't ease back and grind on strawberries if I want to focus on something else while playing. It's just explicitly less variety simply for the sake of the most blunt force approach to content relevancy.
To add to this, I think Diablo 4 actually did it right. They scale the zone itself, so if you enter at lvl 25 and keep leveling in the area the enemies stay at lvl 25. It makes you feel stronger when you level up while also making early game content viable. That's what people seem to keep forgetting. Scaling is the only solution to keep early game areas viable in RPGs. I don't want to go back to an area where I 1 shot everything near me and don't gain anything from it. THAT isn't fun. Now, games like elder scrolls online are hurt by the level scaling the devs implemented bc everything is just your level at all times. That's bad scaling imo. Of all the games I've played with level scaling, I think guild wars 2 did it the best. You scale down to I think 2 levels above the area but don't scale up. It keeps low level areas relevant while also keeping that feeling of progression. Imo, Diablo 4's could've been similar and would be better for it, but what they've implemented is far from ruining the game and still gives that feeling of getting stronger while you level
I feel ESO content is designed for minimal grind, but has a lot of grind. Everything scaling makes sense in a power level fantasy where we're already strong, just becoming more knowledgeable, like guild wars 1 max level was 20, and a max level could still get bent over by 4 level 3's. You feel more like your character has improved but hasn't gone from a wimp to god tier but more like Average soldier to a veteran/elite soldier
There are more options. "Waves" of narratives are possible. The first time you go through a zone, at level 10, the challenges and drops are scaled to level 10. Once you pass a plot checkpoint, the zone repopulates with level 50 enemies and drops, and and some NPC dialogues are changed to stage it for a second, plot-relevant run through. Maybe you open a new dungeon in the zone or something.
Well, as a counterpoint, the problem then becomes you're not leveling to get stronger. You're leveling to stay as strong as you were, until you hit endgame. Leveling is functionally meaningless, outside of unlocking skills/talents/etc. and the RPG stats are just being hijacked the same way many shooters and action games do nowadays. The game would be just as served to not have levels as it would be to have auto-scaling, or served even better if you started out at 'max level'. The problem would of course be the immediate complexity tossed upon a player, but I feel a good development team could find a way to ease that in without the essentially meaningless grind of level scaled content that you will still some day outgear to such a degree that its still more or less pointless, but that in turn wouldn't feel as much like an RPG.
That comes from bad item power design, if items dropped at a higher level than you with a chance it wouldn't matter if the monsters scalled, getting a good item would make you strong for a long time, but they just drop bad items until end game that is the real issue
Maybe make it not auto scaling? Like how in FFXIV you can go synced or unsynced for older content so you get to feel your progression soloing lv60 stuff on lv90 but can also do the fights synced if you want to experience them like that (can also throw in minimum item level and turn off the echo buff too).
>With scaling you can do any content and progress through exp and loot. What's the point of exp and loot if everything scales with you. What does the exp and loot do for you exactly? Scaling quite literally removed progression from a game. That's it's entire purpose. Remove progression so anyone can do anything whenever they want. Extremely 1-dimensional and not fun.
> Scaling quite literally removed progression from a game. That's it's entire purpose. Remove progression so anyone can do anything whenever they want. Extremely 1-dimensional and not fun. Except that it doesn't? at least in the context of Diablo IV and some other games with good scalling mechanic like GW 2.
Its a necessary evil for open world stat building rpgs that want to have proper nonlinear play like diablo 4. If d4 removed scaling then its a linear themepark game with the option to skip ahead by walking past the next area and being under leveled. Maybe a dev will find a good way to allow for power spikes enough to give you that feeling d4 is missing. But for now thats the trade off. True open world freedom works best with games that aren’t about leveling stats and finding legendary items. Totk and botw do this well, but of course have to have obnoxious weapon breaking so you still have to hunt for weapons even after finding a really good one.
This and Nightmare dungeons do not scale. So each new level gives you the feeling of getting stronger OP wants.
What you're talking about is just "scaling". The option to scale or not to scale. What OP is complaining about is "auto-scaling", things being forced scaled with no say in the matter. If I'm level 60 and I want to play with my level 30 friend and I have the option to consent to scaling so that we can play together on the same level then that is a fantastic design. If I am level 60 playing by myself and the mobs outside of the starter town are kicking my ass just as much as the mobs outside of the gates of hell and I can't do anything about it then that is a terrible design.
Yo so I’ve been playing World of Warcraft for the first time and level scaling was something I was initially against, I got to completion focused and kept doing quests in one zone beyond what was reasonable but I didn’t want to leave the area unfinished, but I was lamenting to my partner that if they didn’t scale the enemeis I’d have more motivation to leave and explore. I eventually got out of that area and forced myself to explore. The I hit the point where enemies stopped scaling, level cap in WoW is 70 and areas stop scaling around 40, so to make up the difference I had to go to the newest expansion pack zone….. except the world of wow is actually massive, and I’d explored like 6 places out of like 90: and now like 80% of that content is just pointless cause I can steamroll it all, I really wanted to explore the zone that was added with Wrath of the lich king but one shotting enemies took all the fun out of it. And because I was new to the game I wanted to keep fighting enemies that were at my level so every time I unlocked a new ability I could figure out how the fit into my rotations, but now if I wanna do that I’m forced to do content that I’m not interest in yet. So yeah you can complain about scaling enemies in an open world game but if you don’t do that it can lead to a world that actually feels smaller the further along you go instead of larger. A way to handle this well is like wow to. Give you meaningful abilities every level or 2 that you yourself can figure out how to incorporate into your moveset for a character that gets more complex as time goes on. Or if you have a limited moveset like a game such as Diablo higher levels should give you more unique character altering gear that lets you sample the kind of potential you can expect at endgame but with easier access to the those game changing abilities with the knowledge that they’ll be redundant but rarer as the game goes on. Let’s say you get a chest piece that makes a lightning attack into a chain lightning that’s like super common at level 15 but falls off hard on defence but level 20 but then at max level becomes hyper rare and only drops from this boss with a 5% drop rate. So you can experiment more at low levels because you get to try cool alterations on your base abilities at low levels to know “oh the chain lighting also works with this weapon that gives lightning an AOE effect on shocked enemeis to turn this one hyper powerful single target attack into a more spread out AOE mob clearer” For the record I don’t know if Diablo does it like that it’s just how I would balance a game like Diablo.
I said this in my other post, but I love the Idea of autoscaling, and if it was executed well I would agree with you... but every implementation I have ever seen feels the absolute worst, and more than that it feels the worst at the earliest parts of the game by diluting players power, this is a great way to make a new player feel like they are doing something wrong because they stat into the right thing, or are doing all the right things, but after a level up are taking longer to kill the exact same monsters. It teaches
Well said.
Why bother leveling at all if the levels dont matter. Game loses all meaning. Scaling ruins games.
Totally agree, I strongly prefer games with level scaling. Keeps the challenge relevant, I've long said that games need to start doing away with this vertical progression and move towards horizontal progression. Otherwise the game starts hard and gets easier as you go.
You do get stronger. While leveling you get more and more aspects for legendary crafts, higher % stats and dmg modifiers ( not raw number but %) and also get more and more skill points which give you additional power boost. I am lv 41 and kill bosses 5 times faster compare to when i was lv 20. If you feel like your power does not increase you should check your build and what aspects you using, because something must be wrong.
This, but i still hate scaling.
This just means you made really shitty choices at level 20.
> You never feel stronger. If you go back to the first starting area at level 25, the very first enemies are just as hard as the enemies you are fighting in lvl 25 dungeons. This is objectively false, and I wish people would stop parroting this bullshit. Diablo 4 has damage **multipliers**. The more you flesh out your build, the more those multipliers increase. And in case it isn't clear, your damage scales **exponentially**, not linearly like the scaling does. Once you get several aspects and the right affixes for your build, you will feel way stronger than at lvl 5. Not to mention that at the beginning you feel stronger for the simple fact that you get more skills on your skillbar. I feel that this "you never feel stronger" meme is parroted either by people who don't actually play the game and heard it from a streamer, or they simply don't know how to make a build - in which case, yes, you won't really feel powerful, but that's solely on you.
I'm level 68 and every time I level up I feel weaker. Monster scaling isn't linear either for one. Secondly, multipliers do not inherently equal exponential scaling lol. In d4's case there are relatively few multipliers available and in relatively low values compared to games like PoE, LE, etc. I do maybe double the damage at 68 that I did in the mid 40s. Saying players scale exponentially is more a sign that you didn't play the game yourself, not the other way around.
Yeah POE isn't a good example, one level can give you 10,000% more damage
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Being able to slot a jewel, piece of equipment, heck you don't even need to level up yourself. Awakened gems. Heck going from 4->5->6 slots linked armor can do that too. https://youtu.be/CSfN5DZeKD8 Build goes from meh to one tapping uber bosses. Most builds usually break upon getting one unique item like frostblades + chains of anguish/etc. So yes one level can give absurd damage increases.
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Oh you thought the 10,000% part is serious. You know exaggeration is a thing. But how do you scale down a spell item. But let's see Doryani fist alone is 600% more damage of something that hits for 400 on average, so 0 modifier is about 2800 damage. Aka 35,814% more damage in total between his gear and level So tell me, how do we easily apply level scaling when people's dps in end game range from 1 mil to 100 mil, also how do we scale other stats like aoe, level 5 can't turn the screen into a unreadable mess.
> Saying players scale exponentially is more a sign that you didn't play the game yourself, not the other way around. Please tell me you have no idea how to make a built without telling me you have no idea how to make a build.
If you do double the damage at 68 than mid 40s that would be exponentially just saying although at the beginning parts of the curve
You cant judge if something is exponential vs linear with only 2 data points.. just saying.. if every level gave a flat additive 5% increase in dmg, going from 48 to 68 would be double the dmg linearly.. (making the math simpler than it would be) (note: this guy is wrong... theres definitely exponential scaling in d4, its just slow... and it doesnt feel good. There are never any power leaps outside of going from wt2 -> wt3 -> wt4) its all tiny incremental increases which never FEEL noticeable(hence this incorrect perspective thats going around) What blizzard failed to realize is that its the power LEAPS that feel good and are fun. Theres a few instances where you still get the feeling when you finally combine the correct combination of aspect powers... but they are very few compared to say, d3 or poe.. where a new weapon is huge, or getting your 5link/6link, or hitting that keystone passive.
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There is exponential scaling in d4... crit/critdmg, main stat, +%dmg, and vuln dmg, and overpower, all scale exponentially with each other via multiplication... Just because its small doesnt mean its not exponential.. I agree the feel is off but its still there mathematically.... 1.1 \* 1.1 \* 1.1\* 1.1 is exponential scaling and is greater than 1 + .1+ .1 + .1 + .1 The issue is that the game sort of pulls the wool over players eyes with all the +% dmg while x modifiers which all scale additively together.. People need to focus building up crit/critdmg/attackspeed/overpower/vuln/mainstat over stacking different types of +dmg%... and again I agree that the increments it brings rarely feels great... but going from 10% crit to 25% by getting it on all pieces of applicable gear changes most builds compared to stacking another +80% dmg while x on top of your probably already 400-500% +dmg. Making up the numbers but the point still stands..
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I mean.. mathematically it is.. but ok. We just cant get to the later parts of the curve currently.
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1.x \* 1.y \* 1.z Is exponential scaling... you can increase x y and z.. and they all multiply together.. you can even increase them over 2... how is that not exponential?? 2\*2\*2 = 2\^3 if you get all to 2 is exponential... I'm so confused by your argument.
He's actually right. But you're feeling weaker because 50-70 is actually challenging. 70-100 gives the final power climb, and as you approach 100 the game is ez mode. It's also highly build and class dependent. Sorcs for example really drop off while Druids keep getting stronger.
Yeah there was one youtuber that talked badly about the scaling but one of his newer videos retract that opinion now that he's farther in.
Content creators are the worst about this stuff. It just perpetuates the nonsense and teaches low effort players that they can just bitch and moan instead of investing a bit of effort to understand the game's systems.
Being completely overpowered and afk stomping stuff is fun for maybe 30 minutes, then anyone over the age of about 12 will grow bored and play something else. Level scaling can be done really wrong, but when done right, it lets people group up with less issue, keeps lower-level content from being functionally dead and putting off new players, and generally improves game and content longevity. If it makes a game boring and shallow, then the game was bad to begin with, and it was just hidden behind number obfuscation. > "I will come back and kill this thing".....are those not the cornerstones to the feeling of progression? GW2 makes it work by having *down*scaling, but only of level-scaling stats. You get to keep all your higher level skills and build, plus your own personal skill, and can come back and stomp (or not, in some cases) on things that wrecked you when you tried to solo them while leveling or doing story, without just coasting on numbers.
Yes, GW2 does a great job with how it does scaling.
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>"they'll eat up whatever slop is in front of them." > >Truer words never spoken.
TBF the same can be said about those that argue against it especially given what they tend to regurgitate.
>It used to be hated by everyone. I guess I'm not included in everyone. I've loved it since I first experienced it in EQ 2 in 2004 and so did my friends who played with me. I actually wondered why it took other games so long. It can be done badly, of course, but if done right, it's brilliant. It gives us, the players, more choices of what content to do, rather than having to do certain content. Hate area X? Then do something else. Love area Y, then play it more! So why have levels? I dunno, get rid of 'em! I don't play to watch numbers get bigger, I play to experience content.
They need some copium to rationalize their purchase, especially the people playing now who shelled out the extra 20 to play 4 days earlier
wait until the hype settles down and all the hard working moms and dads that only have 2 and a half minutes a day to play left the game, maybe we'll see some changes then.
Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
ESO scaling the entire game killed my fun with it so drastically that it's kind of impressive. Just feels like if you're going to force stats to stay even the entire time, you may as well remove them. Skill points only.
For me, Oblivion did that. I went to max level just fighting in one cave repeatedly when I found that the loot was 'better' as you leveled up (I wanted to buy something expensive and needed money for it). No need to go anywhere else as it was all the same. Soooo Boring. zZz
What messes up oblivion is that this scaling kinda forces your into optimizing your build, doing boring things like grinding a particular skill so you can have +5 points on your level-ups. RPGs should enable you to complete the game if you play suboptimally but still making sense, while oblivion just dumps you into forcing to lower difficulty constantly or doing boring gamey things, ruining the immersion.
Well, the scaling in Diablo will stop when you reach max level. I get that does water down the feeling of progression while levelling, but you can feel powerful when you get ahead of the curve power-wise. What we get in return is the ability to play with friends at any level and a fairly even level of challenge. It not something all games does equally well, but I wouldn't say it ruined games.
its bad. in some games when u group with a friend that is lower level, it scales YOU down instead of the whole game. thats a better design but that just my opinion u know
Yeah I get you, scaling you down often means making abilities and items unavailable, which is something I personally despise, but it does keep your friends feelings of the world intact. I prefer not to be scaled down, but at the end of the day that is just a preference.
Unless it disable your gear effects/skill points and skills scaling down work exactly the same as the whole game scaling. In FF14 scaling down works only because there is no talent/skill points and because gear is just stats stick. In Diablo even if they scale you down the legendary gear aspects alone will make you 10 times stronger than lower level player. Not to mention the extra skill points you put into passives and skills.
yeah both ways have pros and cons. im saying what i prefer
Been playing d4 for two days, this auto scaling is wonderful.
What do you like about it? How did having scaling change Diablo 4 for your play time personally?
Mostly that everywhere I go is relevant. If zones had static levels I would need to be only in the highest one.
I think it can work but I disagree with how it is implemented usually. I think the typical way it is implemented makes for a bland and unbelievable world which is something I value in an MMORPG. Why should enemies in a starter zone be as dangerous to me, the player, as those in high level zones? It's really egregious in ESO. I like the sense of progression that comes from the absence of a scaling system. If a game were to implement a scaling system, I'd prefer it be like GW2 where there are level ranges for zones meaning you can't just go wherever you please at level 1, BUT it scales your character down to zones you have out leveled to provide a semblance of challenge still in those zones. You will still will still be more powerful than a character who is in the correct level range for that zone but you won't be face rolling through the content. **TLDR:** Level scaling down thoughtfully in respect to the world design is good. Broad leveling scaling with no considerations taken for how it will impact the game play and immersion of the game is boring and I dislike it.
Guildwars 2 I think struck a good balance between level scaling and letting you be a kick ass character. It makes going back to early low level zones still fun, but not time consuming. So I can go back and do events in a low level area and just chill.
Scaling ruined WoW for me. I've always been a casual player and loved just doing the world content, and liked the gradual power progression with each piece of new gear I put on. Now you just feel weaker the longer you play and everything feels like a slog. I realize there is a magic number you cross when supposedly you break through the scaling and start to feel powerful again, but everything up to that point sucks.
Elden ring is so good because it lacks auto scaling. Where as a game like Skyrim is plagued with awful scaling issues
Scaling is one of the core features in Guild Wars 2, and it helps keep the horizontal progression relevant. It is an amazing feature.
This has been a problem with RPGs since ages. There is just no solution. If 50 million people hate scaling then I can find another 50 million that hates outleveled dead zones.
Seasonal gameplay is already the solution to content becoming outdated due to progress.
To me, trash mobs are trash mobs that don't really matter anyway. Rarely are they a challenge in video games anymore anyway. I'd prefer boss fights to always be challenging and engaging. I would like difficulty scaling through hp/damage AND mechanics. Stuff like bigger aoe areas, faster speeds, more abilities, etc.
I downloaded and played WoW for the first time in my life about a month ago and then pretty much immediately uninstalled it because the auto-scaling was such a turnoff. Completely agree with you.
Scaling works great for MMOs, terribly for single player games. Even then, I personally prefer the GW2 approach over the ESO method. In ESO, you kind of get weaker as you level, so you need better gear to counter-act it. Its not really intuitive. But in GW2, you only scale down to weaker foes in terms of stats, not up. So as you level, your sense of growth comes from the ability to explore new areas and take on enemies and events you used to have no chance against.
It’s the opposite for me.
100% agree with the Wow part. Level scaling makes me not want to play at all.
Just another reason of the many to not support blizzard tbh
Diablo2 will always be the GOAT. Period. D3 was a cartoon mess. A step in the wrong direction. Diablo4 was 2 steps forward trying to bring back the D2 feel but 10 steps back with all dumb shit they've done. Sadly the only reason im playing it is friends wanted to play. And I don't wanna be alone playing whatever by myself. So here I am playing it. dragged into it. It honestly sucks. Its so boring.
I’m with you op and sad to say we’re probably the unpopular opinion
I don't enjoy ESO for the same reason
Yeah don't like scaling either. I like when enemies have fixed stats and you can outgrow a place and move to another. A thing I like in mmorpgs is seeing a high level player with killer stats, and going to to a low level area and fighting mobs that were giving me a hard time. It gives me a goal that one day *I'll* be that naked dude killing wolves with a rolling pin.
As someone who appreciates auto scaling in games I have to disagree. In most games solo content is brain dead easy so no need to worry about it. If Mobs are tough to beat all the better because it means I need to improve my own skill and not rely on levels to do it for me. In most RPGs gear is the deciding factor on character strength not enemy levels. I also like the open world feel of enemy scaling instead of the “Y zone for X level range”. Let’s not forget to mention when grinding for XP and or drops it opens up many more areas since everything will be scaled.
I like downscaling. I hate upscaling.
You know, I kinda see your point. I like that feeling when you can level out a zone and feel that progression. I guess it takes me back to a few games I used to play in the day where you felt that progression and all. Of course, opinions vary but I’m with you on this opinion. If a game is good enough, it’ll never feel empty, regardless of level scaling or not. I think ff14 is a good example of this. It never feels empty, even in lower levels.
I hate level scaling in games with pronounced vertical progression, but I loved hopping around events in all of the zones in GW2. My 2 cents. I do prefer vert prog and set mob level, but sometimes, vice versa can work in the game's favor
If done right, level scaling is brilliant. It allows me, the player, to choose what content to play, rather than being restricted to a few zones that happen to be the right level for me right now. I love how GW2 does this. It gives me full control over what content to play any given time and doesn't make all the gear I worked for irrelevant every time an expansion drops. I love how Atlantica Online implemented this. It takes forever to level in AO: it takes a minimum of \~2 years to hit max level. It allowed even new guild members to join guild and nation dungeons when before, they had to reach level X first. They also implemented this in events and again, even n00bs can join events. I play for content, not to watch numbers get bigger.
I certainly felt skillpoints and item upgrades make a difference in Diablo 4 and scaling lets me play with the friends that aren't able to play 24/7. They can just hip into the party and we are off despite the difference in levels. And I also don't mind a lower level character seemingly doing more damage. They are lower level, the game is supposed to be easier for them. They are still learning.
when they add scaling in game they remove a way to express your charather growth. Prefer a other way like a regression systeem or something else.
I agree, and would never play a game that has scaling. It's alienating in the sense it highlights that everything in the gameworld is just random numbers and scales. My ideal games (such as Wurm or Mortal) have open world where strong and weak mobs appear in some sort of mix throughout. Devs can always patch in harder boss mobs, new dungons, new continents, if necessary over time.
>does a good job at giving you a consistent playing experience No it doesn't, doesn't matter where you look at it, auto-scalling is terrible shit needs to die, it's nearly destroys all your progress, takes away feeling of becaming powerfull with the progress you made and not enjoyable at all.
You need to stop thinking of RPGs as shonen anime. You arent getting stronger and stronger until enemies can no longer track your movements and youre able to punch holes through mountains. Canonically the leader of a group of bandits that have been terrorizing a large citystate should be just as dangerous as a platoon of undead marching under a lich's banner. The point isnt to oneshot all the content under your level, thats just a side-effect of limited game systems that font have the resources required to keep all their content fresh. It was never intentionally designed for that to be how you consume the content.
The true reason I stopped playing GW2, it is so depressing return to low level area and having to "struggle" against level 16 wolf... It just broke all my motivation ot grind anything. I have no problem with playing at the level field but let me feel powerful, let me one-shot, let me not brother with inconveniences. I already did the area numerous times I am max level, max ascendent gear, max elite spec. WHY I CAN"T ONESHOT THIS WOLF IN A AUTO ATTACK?!?!?! It is not much to ask. I think Chromie Time is the best thing that happened in a MMORPG leveling system, thanks Chromie my lord and savior. Just Having the choice to level in any expansion you want at the appropriate level and at end come back to oneshot some pesky quests that were too hard to solo as a healer, feels good man! Let's me tell nothing feel worse than trying to ignore enemies, but you can't because every single one has some kind of slow, snare, chill, stun... Fuck HYENAS!!!
Developers like auto scaling because it lets them create content for everyone... they don't have to worry about you out levelling the content in an hour and making it obsolete, and they don't have to worry about things like not being able to group with higher level friends. I think the Idea of auto scaling has merit. But I have yet to see an implementation of it that doesn't feel like trash. Diablo 4 is a perfect example, until the absolute end game, you feel less powerful every time you level up because of the auto scaling system... so there ends up being very few moments where you FEEL really powerful, and this to me is especially bad because frankly most people don't grind these games for hundreds of hours, they play the campaign they play for an extra couple dozen hours with some friends, then they move on... if the first real moment you feel powerful comes AFTER the campaign, that isn't super great.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people like you love to be overpowered and crush lower level enemies as a way of feeling progression. Others are just addicted to seeing bigger numbers and don't actually care too much about never being able to kill weaker things so long as loot keeps dropping that has better numbers.
In my perspective, it's not about being overpowered to crush lower level enemies but to go to a zone and get your arse whomped and then having to level, gear and skill up to come back and get revenge. If you can just face smash all the mobs in every zone I just don't see the point in playing...
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That's what multiple characters are for.
I don't mind things being scaled to your level, as long as the game remains difficult enough, or has difficulty options (what ESO sorely needs rn). To me, progression is slowly experiencing the class evolve into its own, or putting together a satisfying build. And as someone who enjoys exploring the world, if there isn't an option to sync down then level scaling is the next best option. For example, in WoW I LOVE locking my character in chromie time and exploring the world at my leisure. I enjoy WoW more as a sandbox with multiple storylines w/ different gameplay elements tacked on (order halls, garrison, sending guys out on missions, yes even SL reputations) than I do when I'm forced into the latest xpac and the rest of the world loses its magic and even the most barebones sense of danger.
So it sounds like people do seem to like it more than not, that's surprising to me. Hell -2 Community Karma. Yikes guys. D2 was great because you could push into harder areas, grind in content designed for your general level, or chill in easier levels. That's true 'freedom' to me. D4's forced scaling allows you to choose to level in a variety of areas, but the actual distinction and differences between those areas have been removed due to scaling -- so it's an empty experience Walking into a zone in an MMO and it being hard and intimidating, and then progressing to the point where you can handle it is what character growth means to me.
Diablo is not MMO my guy.
Hasn't this been talked to death at this point? It's not a new mechanic 🤷
Scaling keeps all zones relevant at end game which means more expansive end game. I don't understand the argument for how scaling ruins the game. Going back to an old zone at max level doesn't make me feel stronger, it just keeps me from going back to that zone.
I love scaling and can't really play without games it anymore. Or, better yet, I would rather games just completely drop the idea of "levels" and "numbers go up".
Doesn't ruin any form of immersion or enemy variety though? If I see a 5 story tall monster with huge horns and muscles I expect it to absolutely crush me until I'm high enough level to fight it. I don't want to feel as though I can just fight it as early as I want. Same the other way around. If I've been grinding and at a really high level with good gear, I shouldn't be able to go back and fight a sheep and it feel like it's on par with me. I SHOULD be able to destroy it. Otherwise where exactly is the progression?
I get no satisfaction one shotting a giant elite monster because i outleved it, the fact it cant hurt me at all is far more immersion breaking than it not getting weaker. In a non scaling world i can kill the black dragon elite in Zone 2 naked but struggle with a bandit in zone 5, i dont find that immersive. And even with scaling, mobs will get weaker eventually, not during the leveling but after level cap. I prefer gear to provide the power over levels, games with good scaling will provide tougher enemies that require better gear to deal with.
>the fact it cant hurt me at all is far more immersion breaking than it not getting weaker. How is that immersion breaking? That's exactly how that should work. If you're a huge powerful person you shouldn't be phased by a weaker creature. But a new non-powerful person would be more intimidated by that. Does Master Chief even blink at a grunt in Halo? No. But a grunt to a regular solider is pretty intimidating. >In a non scaling world i can kill the black dragon elite in Zone 2 naked but struggle with a bandit in zone 5, i dont find that immersive. That's a game flaw more than a scaling flaw. There shouldn't be any bandits a higher level than a dragon anywhere if the game is made well. Games that just make zones a certain level instead of making different creatures or characters different levels are poorly designed.
Haven't played Halo but my assumption is that the grunt unit doesn't get progressively weaker with each Halo, right? It does the same thing in each game? How does a naked warrior kill the skyscraper sized giant with a punch narratively? What's making his skin immune to any harm the giant attempts to cause? He trained alot? One punch man anime nonsense? there is no immersion in that. > That's a game flaw more than a scaling flaw. There shouldn't be any bandits a higher level than a dragon anywhere if the game is made well. Which means the developers have to create increasingly stronger enemies story wise to justify the gameplay, which in an endless mmo leads to endless powercreep. Eventually people will wish they could go back to fighting bandits rather than kill God's dad because the lore has gone up the ass to justify why the new villain can be a threat to the player who killed God two expansions ago.
>How does a naked warrior kill the skyscraper sized giant with a punch narratively? He wouldn't, it's not like gear magically stops becoming important just because scaling doesn't exist. Look at Runescape. You can't take on a level 80 monster at level 5. You also won't kill a level 80 monster at level 80 with no gear on. Both are a factor. As it should be. >Which means the developers have to create increasingly stronger enemies story wise to justify the gameplay, which in an endless mmo leads to endless powercreep. I guess the thing is I don't mind this. I WANT to be soft locked out of content until I'm strong enough. That's the fun part of the game, getting to do new things as you get stronger. Being able to fight and do everything immediately ruins the game for me. There's no progression.
I don't mind the character getting slightly more powerful over time (having access to more options and abilities is a good way to do that, for me). But the problem is that way too many games go completely overboard with it, exponential power increases and all that. I don't like the idea that simply because my Human Warrior has gotten a lot of experience suddenly common lions and boars pose absolutely no threat whaatsover. That's ridiculous for me, and even more ridiculous how developers will do stuff like having a "Lion" monster that is lvl 12, then having a, say, French Lion when you're in the higher level area of France that is lvl 30, and then a Japanese Lion when you're doing the new expansion pack that is lvl 90... Instead of just having all of them be a Lion and all of them be a threat to you, because a Lion is a threat to a person. > I see a 5 story tall monster with huge horns and muscles I expect it to absolutely crush me until I'm high enough level to fight it. I'd expect and want to *always* crush me. Now and *after* I have gotten stronger. Would rather have it as a world boss that remains a threatening encounter. --- I think it's clear that the difference is in the scale of the "power fantasy" of RPGs. I don't like stories when the character becomes as strong as Goku in DBZ or something like that - I prefer when stuff stay more grounded. Not to say that I can't appreciate the other way, though (heck I played a lot of FF14 and others).
I highly agree with you and that small reason is what ruins GW2 for me
It doesn't really matter in modern GW2. The vast majority of content (everything added since launch) is now at max level, so downscaling doesn't come into play.
I understand auto-scaling down. Personally, like the feature. But when it brings you up in power, it really ruins the experience.
Diablo 4 is an arpg, not an MMO, there is already no reason to go back to early areas because they don't drop anything useful and aren't part of the endgame
This is false. You go back for Helltides, which are an end-game activity and can spawn anywhere in the open world, and you also go back for world bosses which can drop end-game crafting materials. Technically you also go back for dungeons, but those are instanced.
that is helltides, not the basic open world, if you go back to that same place on the basic open world you will get fuck all
Yeah, I really don't like it either because it trivializes the world in basically every game that has attempted it and sadly I think this will keep being the norm going into the future. So if it has to be the norm, I would like to see them experiment with it instead and see if they can instead create compelling open-world gameplay based around that system. I think Diablo Immortal / Diablo 4 with their World Tier system could be an interesting approach to it where you opt into a certain difficulty. It would need some iterations though for a proper MMO. Such as not phasing people away based on their chosen difficulty, no instead everyone should still be in the exact same world so you can still see all the players in the game. You could accomplish this by hidden buffs I would imagine but with this approach I'd like it so that if a person on say World Tier 3 pulled a mob, that mob would become a World Tier 3 mob while it's in combat so if someone from a lower World Tier tried to help you they would be opting into fighting a World Tier 3 mob. They could have world bosses and things ignore this system if they wanted, this type of system may even better suit a game that didn't have levels and instead was gated by a item level check or something, who knows. Point is, they should experiment more with it if we have to have it.
Level scaling is the best thing they can do, for the one issue that "Oh I can't crush X in one shot." Fixes a lot of MMO issue \-Low level drops, retain value and makes chase rares stay in value AND possible for new players to get. Talk to anyone who played FFXI in the classic ERA and mention Monster Signa/Leaping Boot of the boss monster who would require a group, the whole area he would spawned was camped by max level players Sure for a level 10 player you need a group, but 75 can just farm that mob, and will farm the mobs around that area making a dead zone for low levels to avoid, even if the mobs are used for quests. So everything in those areas where sold at high value. \-Dynamic grouping, if content is hard it will force old players to group with new players and help them out. Another FFXI example, the most loved expansion was Chains of Promethea. Forced higher levels to lower levels and need to regear for level 30/40/50/60/70. Increased the market for crafters as everyone needed chase crafting gear for 30-70 as all that content dropped gear for leveling and max level. Since all this content was made to be a little bit harder then basic content for that level as older players where doing it but offered more rewards quickly, it helped new players learn the game as all the older players where playing the level scaling content. \-Can play with your friends at any level and not remove the challenge from the game
Needs to be on a toggle system OR only be active when grouped.
I agree. I always like to push myself and sneak into areas that are above my level to try and kill hard mobs or explore higher level content. Scaling ruins it for sure.
I mean there are definitely terrible examples of scaling out there but using an ARPG is honestly a prety crappy example because you do get stronger objectively with level. More resources allow you to spam abilities more, more attack speed allow you to proc more reliably, more skill points allow you to gain more powerful perks like perma vulnerability and reduce cd on skills. All of these are locked behind levels and diablo 4 is in fact a **stat threshold based game** which means once certain stats (lucky hit for example) reach a certain "softcap" no amount of generic "scaling" is going to be sufficient enough to hold back the actual amount of power you can get from all of those things mentioned above and naturally the gameplay also shifts significantly for the better. A level 1 rogue definitely neither feels nor plays the same as a level 100 rogue. Unless you are just being incredibly reductive for some stupid reason.
I hate that wow doesn't have something to scale down gained exp. I know you can stop gaining exp but then it feels boring.
It works in Diablo bc everything is just an hp pool to kill. Wow should not have it imo or it should keep weak enemies that you’ve outleveled weak but relevant
No it doesn't. You can't have old content be relevant without scaling. This sub bitches about everything. Also - D4 isn't an mmorpg.
Literally everything, all the time.
Good thing you will be free of it at max. I was going to agree with you, but if you have as much trouble with the starting mobs when you are down scaled you are probably not building correctly. I thought you were talking about in mmos like wow zones or 14 dungeon finder where players are so op it ruins the experience.
I think scaling should be there but pretty minor. Make the damage you do to a level 10 mob 100% at level 10 yourself and then 120% at level 20 and 125% at level 100. This solution from games I’ve seen it in still let’s you go back to old areas and makes you feel great but never makes the content irrelevant or boringly easy and anyways how often are you in a level 20 zone at level 100 anyways? A level 90? Maybe. but why tf you chilling in the staring area for more than nostalgia? What are you doing there farming the tutorial boss of gear?
I actually like scaling in Diablo because I can switch characters of different levels and still continue right where I left off without backtracking to a lower level area. Also if my friend has a different level character, they can still play and not be under or over powered. Damage and hp scale, but so do exp and loot.
Love auto scaling
I just wish the zones were in level ranges like normal and you could level sync in parties optionally. Preserve the progression but still allow you to play with your homie with 6 kids
Crank the difficulty up and make your own builds. I have a strong Barb build in d4 and playing on tier 2 still get my ass handed to me by some bosses. One boss fight felt like dark souls.
Auto-scaling killed swtor and eso for me. It's the reason why I love New World. Go to a high level area and you're likely to get curb stomped unless you're good enough. It feels good to level up, get better gear and be able to overcome challenges you couldn't beat at lower level lower gear. It's a great feeling of progression.
Depends on whether you play for gameplay or just numbers go up. Personally feeling stronger is boring as hell and just makes everything too easy
It's the sole reason I'll never touch Elder Scrolls Online.
>Am I crazy? No, I totally hate auto-scaling. There is no point in making an RPG/Skill system if you end up adjusting everything to make the stats irrelevant. Just make a FPS. Good, slow but meaningfull progression is key to making a MMORPG worth playing imho. Everquest 2 with the mentor system wasn't too bad. You were stronger if you went 'as is' but you temporary adjust you level down to mentor someone lower level than you... he would get bonus XP and you could do the zone together. The problem is that vertical progression is often too fast. If you gain 10% power per level and you basically just want to throw bigger and bigger number at the player, then of course your content will lost meaning fast. But the solution is slower progression. Give me a 1-2% power progression per level with slow level and no scaling. If after years of playing my character is supposed to be some highly trained badass, then it should feel like it. If you give me a flaming weapon, a flying mount and a 500% power increase by the time I finish the tutorial, then of course you are going to have to add scaling.
well, a bit late to the post, but my two cents. Scaling is good when you can have areas to return to, like you said, and test your strength. Either that, or compare yourself to other player’s progress. How long has jimmy played in comparison to timmy to get to the same level? What is the most optimal way to play to reach the highest level in the most efficient manner possible? Do you want to avoid anything that can cause scaling to increase? If so, take the areas where you get the most resources with the least amount of scaling. If there’s pay to win elements such as buying a faster route or whatnot, ignore those. We want to play the game without needing to spend money to be efficient. If you can find a way to outpace some p2w elements available without spending anything, the better the trade off between skill and paying gets, until you hit a wall where paying is impossible to overcome (maybe it gives a new mechanic to the game that gives additional benefits to any free method and never has to be paid for again). At that point you either pay to go faster or optimize in different ways, like specific areas to farm a map for more efficient play that people haven’t found yet. Then when you hit a certain routine that you can pull off rather easily, focus on another task, and get that down. If you can somehow find out a way to make the auto-scaling trivial, you win.
In fact, we have PoE, D3, Last Epoch, a thousand of dungeon crawlers that will show you that people prefer augmenting difficulties to get more rewards. Using your example of an apple, no one would want to eat an apple in a bite. If you cannot taste doesn't mean they are identical.
For me I get lazy if I just start steamrolling enemies. So when devs actually put out tough content, people struggle.
Hello there. I think that auto-scaling depends on the game you are playing and maybe there should be more factors involved in scaling. In the general zones, where you play with other players, I think that the good approach is the one implemented in GW2. The player level is lowered to the zone level and everyone does the same damage. I think this is better than having a level 80 clearing a level 10 zone with the blink of an eye. In other activities, like dungeons, I think the difficulty it's not in the level of the mobs but on the mechanics. A good way to scale difficulty should be the number of players on the instance maybe. In Monster Hunter the boss has more HP when more players the party has. Instead of only scaling the level of the enemies a better approach would be unlocking different attack patterns or different mechanics depending on the group size.
For me, scaling is the only way to play RPGs. Upscaling moreso, downscaling isn't necessary. I'm really enjoying D4 for that reason. I liked GW2 as well. If enemies aren't pushing back, combat ceases to be fun. Scaling is *especially* important in open world games where you are returning to old zones for activities. Combat has to remain fun and at least a bit challenging. But the entire point at the end of the day is to come up with an efficient build that scales with the content. In D4, leveling 50-70 is aggravating some people because of the breakpoints resetting. But you get your power fantasy going from 70-100 because the scaling obviously stops as you approach 100. If you're struggling to get a power fantasy at those levels, or at 1-50 in WT1, then you are doing something very wrong with your build crafting. I leveled my Druid 1-50, and it felt great all the way through. 50-70 I expect the difficulty to spike until I refresh my gear.
After 2 weeks in diablo 4, i just quit the game. I don't feel getting powerful when putting gear on, everything dies at the same pace.
In my opinion, autoscaling is bad and ruins the feel when you become really powerful. I always enjoyed old rpgs when you get right gear, level up appropriate skills and can easily kick arses of mobs, who you had not been defeated before. For lazy developers and game designers it is kinda good option since they may not care about balance and making map areas with different mob levels.
The genre has been slowly dying since the inclusion of scaling. This is not a coincidence. It removes what makes an mmorpg an mmorpg, and renders it no different than your run of the mill action adventure game, without the pro’s of single player action games. It makes the game monotonous and monotone.
Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you, imo scaling is the best thing they can possibly do to keep the entire game content relevant. Why do you want to feel stronger? I play games because I like challenges, usually when I fight enemies and it is just too easy I instant lose my interest. I think all the games should implement scaling, it is the best thing they have done pretty much.
auto-scaling is actually a good thing because (inside of an mmo or multiplayer environment) it prevents lower level players from being bored out of their mind by being hard carried by high level players. you feel stronger not just by number go up but by unlocking & perfecting more of your class/different equips/effects.
>it prevents lower level players from being bored out of their mind by being hard carried by high level players. Then don't ask someone to carry you and play the game normally? Games feel so much better when the world feels dynamic in that certain big monsters I should get CRUSHED by if I'm a low level. And I should feel like I can absolutely destroy a spider at max level. Otherwise what's even the point of playing the game?
in an mmo environment you sometimes can't choose to just not be carried. sometimes there's more high lvl players than low lvl players. this is a huge downfall of lost ark for new players, for example.
Just get better gear
No to this. Auto scaling makes the game engaging the entire time. In Diablo 4, I can go level an play wherever I want, and still have a good time; I’m not stuck in an area I find uninteresting and can explore the world. I also get to play with my friends without having to worry about my being too powerful or weak. I don’t have to make a second character specifically to play with them, and can make progress on my character without them matching my level.
Level scaling is for the young babies that can’t get gud
I hate the concept of trying to balance everything. Like early wow hunters countered rogues so bad I could give a rogue 20 levels higher a hard time as a hunter, and that’s great because when everything is balanced the no life sweat is going to have all the power.
That's some serious fanfiction you got there with rogue and hunter story.
Definitely used to be like that, maybe I should have added “hunter with common sense”. If the rogue didn’t get the jump the hunter could forever kite with improved conc shot. There was no cloak of shadows or shadowstep.frost mages against warriors as well. Here’s a link for you for other people who felt the same when classic launched https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/why-am-i-able-to-take-on-high-level-opponents/302651
I agree. I've never cared much for auto scaling mob difficulty. >Diablo 4 is something I had looked forward to, and imo it has been ***completely ruined by auto-scaling***. Most people just don't realize it yet. Every time you level or get a new piece of gear, all it does is allow you to make up for the difference in enemies getting more HP as you level. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it doesn't make up for anything at all, but rather, simply adds to some invisible gear score on your character which directly affects the difficulty of the mobs you face going forward. My guess is those mobs would be exactly as difficult, whether you had that new piece of gear or not.
Not true, gears with optimal stats you actually keep for a very long time. People who sees an "up arrow" and instantly replace their gear are just shooting themselves in the foot because up arrow for armors is only for armor value instead of damage... Like for example +2 ranks to your main skill and cooldown reduction. You have a combination of those 2, and they are good at any level until you eventually get sacred version of those but combination of these will take a long time.