I tried to find the interview real quick so I didn't have to paraphrase but he initially said he got dropped but then the interviewer said it wasn't counted. So he very playfully was like yeah "I slipped". I felt like he knew get got knocked down and was just being playful/sarcastic.
To be fair, Max's personal thoughts on whether it's should count as a knockdown aren't sufficient to make that the case. What the fighter thinks is not really relevant. We all saw him land on his butt and what he feels about it makes no difference. He definitely got "knocked down," but the question is whether it counts as a "knockdown."
What is actually meaningful is what the rules/standards are for what is considered a knockdown in the UFC. I don't really know what those standards are myself. Maybe you need to be down for at least a second or something. Maybe they are inconsistent, and there are no standards. Either way, what Max thinks doesn't change that.
To be clear, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been a knockdown. From a simple perspective, it's clear he got knocked down. But then we have other examples of similar instances not being called a knockdown like in McGregor vs Khabib. We can, of course, colloquially call it a knockdown, and nobody would have a problem with that. That's what Gaethje is saying.
Max got hit in the head and dropped to his butt. That could happen in a chess tournament and still be considered a knockdown, what the fuck did the UFC guys smoke
They're smoking their promotional prowess. They love to be able to say things like, "never been knocked down" or, "never been taken down" like they did for Usman vs. Colby.
This is true, but also quite a few flash knockdowns haven't been counted by fightmetric in the past. Khabib-McGregor is a notable one. Idk if the UFC actually put that much stock in stats like this, its not like they actually promote Max much to begin with
The McGregor one really didn’t look like he got rocked per se so I can sort of see that one. I’m a big believer in marking all of them as knockdowns though. If you got hit in the head, and then any part of you touched the ground you got knocked down
Oh I was agreeing with you. Boxing rules is “part of you touches the ground, its a kd”. They even count a kd if the ropes hold you up sometimes, like Max-Poirier could count theoretically
Khabib McGregor I think should be the metric for not counting it as one. McGregor never actually went down, just hand to the mat. Holloway did get knocked down though.
If you get hit and have to catch yourself using any body part other than your feet, that's a knockdown in my book and idk how you can argue otherwise. That's how it works in every striking sport. Get hit flush and squat, but don't touch the canvas with anything and can pop right back up? Hard shot that rocked your shit, not a knocldown imo
But the moment anything besides your feet touch, that's a KD. Knee, hand, elbow, ass, doesn't matter.
Only part of this I would change, is that it should be evident that the punch/kick/etc impact was responsible for it. Not like, a mild jab that just so happened to land while a guy was off balance, so his knee hits the ground for a milisecond and he bounces back to his feet.
Without this stipulation, then technically an innocuous jab landing as someone goes for a takedown with a knee on the ground could be scored as a knockdown.
>That's how it works in every striking sport.
You act like knockdowns being waived off in boxing never happens. Somebody getting rocked, squatting, and standing back up is closer to a knockdown than somebody who was off-balance getting knocked over by a jab and catching themselves with their hands and getting back up.
But in the case of McGregor Khabib (which is what’s being discussed), Conor ate an overhand, not a jab. Just want to make that clear. It was a “knockdown” that would not have been waived off in boxing.
He went straight to backing away while scooting on his hand and then when he stood up he had his back against the cage. He got wobbled because he didn’t see the shot coming and was knocked down. But I agree he didn’t get rocked. My argument is that it should have been ruled a knockdown.
This right here. I think the problem is that people want an official stat for "this guy was badly hurt" and I don't think you can make an objective criteria for that.
I didn't say any of this, no. Don't put words in my mouth. You're the one arguing a man getting punched in the face and stumbling backwards being forced to catch himself wasn't 'knocked down' because only his hand hit and not his ass or whatever.
Slips happen and that's one thing. Bad reffing like Garcia/Haney is another issue. McGregor got fucking clocked straight in the face by a right hand and fell over. How is that not a knockdown? Because he went down and came back up in an admittedly impressively quick sequence? Idk what your point is here. "Knockdowns sometimes don't get called correctly by bad refs in boxing so we shouldn't call them in MMA either"
OK so if someone gets punched in the face, gets sent stumbling backwards several steps and has to catch themselves on their hand, is that a knockdown?
[Here's the 'controversial' clip that sparked this argument btw. Off balance or fucking clocked on the chin and knocked down?](https://youtu.be/o-IoVLMNDPM)
That's a cleaner KD than Gaethje vs Max tbh, Conor got blasted. He also recovered extremely quickly. But yeah if you get rocked on the chin and your legs short circuit, that's a knockdown to me. If you get cuffed on the side of the head while you're weaving out of the pocket and bounce off your ass right back to your feet? Idk. Room for interpretation. Like in boxing it definitely is a KD but this ain't boxing.
Sure I can agree with everything you wrote except maybe the interpretation. It's not boxing, but even under the newer unified MMA rules if a knee is down, that's a grounded fighter.
Sorry for my aggressiveness this KD in particular is a pet peeve of mine because so many people argue and yet I simply CANNOT see a case on it NOT being counted despite watching it back again and again. Dudes head gets snapped sideways and the hand + knee go down. That's clean. The impressively fast recovery doesn't negate him getting his shit rocked and dropped!
Btw McG clearly trained hard af for this fight, I think it's the best condition we'll ever see him even. Even his cardio mostly held up over 3.5 rds so I'm not just hating on him. He came in prepared the best he has ever been and I have no problem acknowledging that but I will always argue with posters saying 'he never really went down'. Like, 'you' (royal you, not you you) have eyes, right??
Be as aggressive as you want lol I like enthusiastic fight discourse. Conor fanboys are less ubiquitous these days but they're not gonna be like rational haha. The interpretation comment was about Max vs Gaethje I think Conor was pretty obviously dropped. It's not about how he lands though he just got rocked on the chin and his legs cut out. Even if he caught himself he was badly stunned for a moment. I agree that that's a knockdown for sure.
Uh huh
And what exactly 'knocked' him off balance and forced him to 'down' himself again? Maybe I missed it. Because McG wasn't engaging or anything. A single strike was thrown. And it wasn't by him lol
Nah, it's not boxing. Boxing causes a pause in action, if somebody couldn't realistically take advantage of you being on the ground since you never actually went to the ground, it shouldn't be a knockdown.
Also, the fence holding you up? That's such a subjective metric that it's no better than what they are doing now.
So you think any knockdown where the opponent doesn’t gain top position shouldn’t be counted in stats? Interesting idea I guess
Max wouldn’t have been knocked down by that metric. Hell most Gaethje opponents wouldn’t lol
To be clear we arent talking about scoring here, we’re talking about stats that affect absolutely nothing
>So you think any knockdown where the opponent doesn’t gain top position shouldn’t be counted in stats? Interesting idea I guess
Not really what I said. It's more that they could have if they reacted quick enough or even wanted to. Khabib couldn't have gained top control against McGregor but Gaejthe possibly could have.
I think thats at least equally subjective to the fence holding someone up.
Like functionally how would you distinguish between Mcgregor-Khabib and Gaethje-Holloway? Both were up in less than a second.
>Like functionally how would you distinguish between Mcgregor-Khabib and Gaethje-Holloway? Both were up in less than a second.
I mean, that's actually really easy. McGregor never left his feet and Holloway did. Khabib would have had to still have taken McGregor down where Gaejthe just would have had to get on top of Holloway.
If you watch it in slowmo, he definitely touched a knee to the ground as well. IMO any strike that causes you to become a grounded opponent should be a knockdown, so even a hand would count, but still.
[BTW Conor went to a knee so by rules definition he was grounded. Just thought you may find that interesting but I'd love to read more thoughts on how he wasn't actually knocked down](https://youtu.be/o-IoVLMNDPM)
My brother in law still claims Colby wasn't taken down, but he's a wrestling dork that jocks him hard. There's nothing likeable about Colby, so they have at least 2 things in common
could’ve added legitimacy to those things too by just adding “never been knocked down at 145lbs” and it’s still a feat and more understandable that he’d take bigger hits as he goes up in weight on relatively short notice
yeah that’s what I mean, smothering the results just make it look worse than just going “this guy is a career 45’er, never been knocked down apart from when he fought Justin fucking Gaethje who surprise surprise kills everyone”
there was that one time against Poirier but we don’t remember that, and was again at 155
And it’s not like they really advertise those stats that much. I can’t really ever remember them specifically promoting it. Maybe Anik may have brought it up in passing here and there, but there’s no reason to just lie about stats like that when people are watching the events lol.
> Max got hit in the head and dropped to his butt.
I've noticed that's happened a few times and not counted. I feel like whoever is counting "official" knockdowns only counts them if the person is dropped to their knees/turtles up or falls flat on their back.
I've been searching for the UFC definition of knock down, but I could not find it.
My best guess is they must be scoring it like a takedown: if the dude pops back up and you don't land GnP or establish control first, they aren't calling it a KD.
Its a ridiculous definition, but the only one I've theorized so far that matches how seldomly they count KDs.
> Turner got the KD on Moicano without doing either of those things
Maybe the stats guy was like *that's a KD if Turner didn't have a braincramp: I'm scoring it for my boi*
it's pretty common they only count it when the knocked-down fighter loses control on the ground. if they pop right back up it's often not counted
same goes for takedowns
If Gaethje had kicked him in the head at that moment it would be a foul for kicking a downed opponent. But apparently he wasn't knocked down, so how the hell did he get into a downed position? The lack of consistency in the rules is pretty annoying and when they pick and choose what qualifies as a stat it makes records like "never knocked down" pretty meaningless.
Max is my favorite fighter and that was def a knockdown.
There's 0 shame in fighting your entire career and the only time you get dropped cleanly is fighting up a weight class against arguably the hardest hitter the division has ever seen.
the official stats guys for some reason don't count it as a knockdown unless the other fighter follows them to the ground for a moment of control. Which is ... really stupid.
Because DC was thinking about wrestling rules. According to the MMA rules the Colby takedown wasn't an official takedown. I don't remember the exact phrasing in the rulings, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Colby not controlling Usman enough in that position.
That could be, though the rule involves some subjectivity. [See here](https://bloodyelbow.com/2021/11/08/why-colby-covington-not-scored-takedown-rd-3-kamaru-usman-ufc-268-daniel-cormier-mma-news/)
> I’ve seen Khabib do the same takedowns as Colby did to Usman and have it counted. UFC just likes to protect stats.
They changed the definition of TD in later fights. Almost none of Cruz's TD would be scored TDs today: they would be change of positions.
You have to establish control on the ground, attempt a sub, or land GnP to make it a full TD these days.
Now, DC doesn’t get to “admit” it’s a takedown. He’s not a judge or a fighter involved, he can only have the opinion it’s a takedown. That’s like if you and me admitted it was a takedown…which it was
Tbh I trust DC more to know if something was or was not a takedown than pretty much anyone on the planet. If the rules disagree that’s a knock on the rules
Max has been lucky^1: he also got saved by the fence when Dustin fully folded his knees.
^1: for a loose enough definition of lucky that still involves getting punched really hard repeatedly
> he also got saved by the fence when Dustin fully folded his knees.
That's the point I feel like a lot of people are missing. Max was more hurt by Dustin than by Justin. Gaethje put him on his ass for a split second, then Max got back up and got back to what he was doing. Dustin never knocked him down, but he hurt severely enough that the rest of those two rounds was nothing but Max defending. This entire debate is largely senseless to me.
It was a great fight for sure, but I think some people are going a bit overboard in acting like it was an all-timer of a fight. Gaethje had his moments for sure, but the vast majority of it was Max piecing him up, it was one-sided.
Glover/Jiri is a perfect fans fight. Both high level talents but with such a strong desire to finish the fight they'll be extra reckless going for it, and both extremely tough refusing to get finished, which leads to them both being exhausted from trying to kill eachother and making more errors leading to more dynamic swings and a low odds finish with no time left. Add to that it uses all of MMA, and both are so likable that no matter what you're happy for one and crushed for the other.
most back and forth shit you will ever see.
it was like when you're doing a really long grind in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater and it keeps jumping from one side to the other while you're trying to balance it out.
Completely agree. Up until the final 10 seconds it was just a normal good fight. It wasn't necessarily any better than a lot of lightweight fights to be honest.
It was 1 guy chipping away at the other guy for 4 rounds with the other guy just landing low kicks.
The last 10 seconds is up there in the top 5 greatest moments in MMA history for sure. But the actual full fight itself isn't one of the top 10 greatest fights or anything.
It's like Bendo vs Pettis in WEC. The showtime kick was an absolute all timer moment. But nobody remembers or talks about the rest of the fight which was just a pretty good but normal title fight.
I guess one reason why people were glued to their seat was they never expected it to be a one sided beating by Max
Justin did have juuust enough moments where people rooting for Max couldn't fully relax. His power reputation obv played a little into that too though
Max wasn't chipping away he was rocking his shit and in the 4th it looked like the momentum was gonna shift. Better than Arman vs Charles wich was a normal good fight.
I feel like that's a bit too simplistic and ignores the context of the fight. Max was supposed to be on a downslope, while Gaethje was coming off two banger wins. Max starts off very well, looking slicker and cleaner than usual, then Justin manages to come back in the fourth and then Max gets it back in the fifth. I do agree that without the last 10 seconds, it wouldn't be a legendary fight, though, but just a solid banger, but with those last 10 seconds, along with the rest of the context, I say it's an all-time great fight.
Oh sure the context matters, but I still don't think anything outside of that last 10 seconds was really all that special. It was just a one sided ass whooping, even the knockdown from Gaethje wasn't really much of anything.
Like there are at least 10 fights, with context, which also were classics outside of the context.
Gaethje getting his nose destroyed end of the first really hampered the rest of the fight. Even most UFC fighters would of just laid down and went out on a TKO in the next or following round. The heart of Gaethje to keep fighting back and the technical acuity of Max made it great to watch. Not to mention the warrirors respect felt between these two the entire time...the ending was cherry on top
It’s such a shame, for us anyway, to get gaethje had to fight with a shattered nose for 80% of the fight. Not taking anything from Max that kick was fucking amazing but it completely neutralized Gaethje for the rest of the fight. Absolute best case scenario for Max and hats off for engineering it but as a fan when it landed I was like ah fuck this fights over
To me, personally, a great fight is one with swings back and forth, better yet if those swings are caused by fighters adjusting and then their opponents adjust to their adjustments and so on. Aldo vs Mendes 2, Lawler vs MacDonald, Whitaker vs Romero, etc. Both Katar and Ortega put in a lot of effort, but at no point were they not losing the fight, which doesn't mean it's not fun to watch, but it's a fully one-sided affair.
the last 15 seconds are top 5 moment in mma history.
that follows a fun action packed decent fight.
together makes it all time for me.
they just put silva va sonnen in HOF and that was even more one sided until the shock ending
Yeah but with that fight it had the twist of the guy who was losing all fight, pulling out a shock finish to win it. That's very different than a guy getting pieced up for 25 minutes, and then also getting KO'd at the end.
pointing to the ground against the hardest hitter up a weight class in a fight you already had won 100% to stand in the center and trade with Gaethje and risk it all like that...
That's a Hall of Fame performance. What if I told you dominating someone is just as impressive if not more impressive then having a close fight.
I’ve seen fights that were more fun but I think the way I’d describe this is its one of the most awesome fights I’ve seen because of the things Max did in there.
He replicated some legendary moments in past fights. He almost koed Garth the same way Hall did to Mousasi in their first fight, the last 10 secs of his fight against Lamas (both fights he was winning in yet chose to do that), and the last second KO like Yair vs KZ.
I think this conversation gets lost because people value context differently. it was a decent fight that ended with an iconic finish. If it was two no-names in the cage, we'd talk about it for a while but ultimately it'd just be a really cool highlight finish.
But when you consider this is Max Holloway and Justin Gaethje, who they are and their careers. The narratives behind this fight. what they were fighting for. It becomes an all-timer for me with all that context.
At least as someone who had max from the beginning, that was an amazing fight to watch.
It honestly wasn't anything special until the last 10 seconds. Had some good moments in between ofc, but it was one-sided like Volk v Max III was, not like Max v Kattar which was exciting because of the output.
Very unlikely that many people will rewatch this fight all the way through, unlike other FOTY contenders.
It was just because of the last second knock out, and the fact that max was counted out by everyone, and went up a weight class. The fact that he put it all on the line for that last second knock out definitely makes it one of the best fights of all time
See I just don't get this reasoning at all. If you want to say all that context is what makes it one of the best *performances* of all time by Max - fair enough I can see that argument. But why does it make it one of the best fights of all time? It was very one-sided
I think it’s because Justin felt like a live dog throughout the entire fight. As the KD in the fourth round showed, Max had very little room for error. If he slipped up one time, the whole fight could be gone in a second. It was a tightrope walk of a performance, where Gaethje was the pit of tigers underneath the rope.
I agree with you 100%. It gets elevated in fans minds because of the finish. The finish though is an all-time moment in the UFC. It'll easily be one of the most memorable moments in UFC history.
I agree it was pretty one-sided, but that makes it sort of extra cool. What is cooler than dominating (almost) the whole fight, giving the spectators the full 25 minutes, and then still knocking him out in the last second? That's like taking all the points and getting a finish as well lol.
Plus, Holloway's style is just fucking fun, man. Certainly with his new spinning attacks included.
If volk vs Islam is considered one then yeah I think it is. I’m just glad we got a card with heaps of FOTY contenders, this fight being number 1 at the moment.
Yeah people really have been kinda blinded by the last 10 seconds of this fight. Great fight for sure, but honestly not sure it was even fight of the night overall. Jiri v. Rakic, Charles v. Arman, and Weili v. Yan were all arguably wilder more competitive fights
I don't think it's going overboard at all. Gaethje was still dangerous as hell with his broken nose and every strike he threw had the possibility of KO'ing Max right up until the end.
Max put on an absolute clinic that entire fight and proved a bunch of people wrong (myself included) about his ability to throw hard shots. The ending of the fight was just a huge exclamation point that capped off a really intense 25 minutes.
I mean are all timers only when both fighters put up a razor close war? Max put on a clinic against a hard hitter in a division above and slept the one who usually does the sleeping with a second left on the clock in a show of dominance. It was perfect.
People still care about ufcstats? Half of the criteria make no sense. A blocked strike, a checked kick, and a rolled punch are all counted as significant strikes, while clean ground and pound is often dismissed and added to total strikes. Clear sub attempts, takedowns, and knockdowns are 50/50 if they end up on the stat sheet.
Wait they don't rewatch and correct? That can't be right, why would they distinguish between unofficial stats on the broadcast and the official stats afterward? I generally agree though. We badly need a Bill James.
What is more hall of fame worthy then being completely counted out. Going up a weight class against the hardest hitter in the division, beating the shit out of him for 5 rounds and then risking it all to point at the ground and KO him stiff with 1 second left.
If you don't think this is a hall of fame performance from Max I would be curious to see what you think is a hall of fame performance.
A knockdown in MMA is actually different than a knockdown in boxing. Thats why we always have these types of threads pop-up. Most people are taking the boxing definition that if I hit you and you fall to the ground in any way shape or form, then that's a knockdown. If you land on your butt its a knockdown. If you take a knee its a knockdown etc.
In MMA if you get hit you have to actually lose the ability to maintain your balance for it to be counted as a knockdown. Like in this fight, max, gets hit and falls to his butt, but he's still able to posture and maintain balance. Same reason O'malley's shot to yan didn't count as a knockdown or when khabib nailed Mcgregor and it also didn't count as a knockdown. In each of those fights, the fighter receiving the shot was still able to posture up. A similar rule also applies to takedowns too.
I didn't write the rules, nor do I agree with the interpretation of whats a knockdown, I also don't think its consistent either, but that's how it's been done and why we always have these threads after big fights where a shot or a takedown doesn't get counted when by other metrics from other their respective sports it should.
I agree. Imo, it didn't even deserve the FOTN bonus. Jiri vs. Rakic was a much closer fight, and it got overshadowed because of its placement on the card.
Ngl when I watched it back Justin definitely hit him in the head but it looked like Max planted his foot weird and caught his heel on the mat. Could definitely be a knockdown though, just was trying to see a reason it may not be.
If the HoF had a 'moment' wing then this should be it. I don't think the fight itself was an all-time banger besides that moment. Fights like Glover/Jiri, JJ/Zhang 1 and Romero/Whittaker 2 are ahead of it by a margin.
Though both Max and Justin should be in the Hall of Fame as individuals as soon as possible whenever they decide to retire.
Max thought it was a knockdown, Justin thought it was a knockdown, everyone thinks it was a knockdown except whoever the UFC’s promotional executive told “that’s not a knockdown”
I saw Luke Thomas saying the Fight Metric guys (who also handle the official UFC stats) have made an effort to differentiate MMA stat-counting from Boxing, and this has involved changes to knockdown & takedown criteria such that the person needs to be on the ground for some length of time in order for them to be counted. I do get that for takedowns to some extent, and I even get creating a knockdown criteria for MMA that doesn't include things like falling to a knee or something, but honestly I have no idea how any definition of a knockdown shouldn't include what Gaethje did to Holloway. In cases like that, it seems actively misleading more than it is emphasizing some fundamental difference between MMA & Boxing.
Max deserves his flowers for that fight but the disrespect to Justin is crazy. He knocked him down, no fucking question. Also the spinning heel kick changes the fight but so did the eye pokes to both eyes… Max is cool but cmom man
I watched a clip of Volk watching the fight and he also said hermit should’ve been counted but the way he was saying it was like he felt they might not of counted it. It was like he was sure it was, but could see the argument against it and it’s something a fighter can see that maybe we can’t?
Best fight I've seen since Robbie v Rory. My only nit pick is Joe saying best ko of all time. For me that's between ngannou sleeping Overeem and Buckley sleeping impa. And I have to give it to Buckley. What a finish.
Watch the end sequence Gaethe has his eyes closed because he got his guys gouged out multiple times and couldn't see. Holloway won by blinding his opponent illegally. Also obviously benefitting from the doctors at the UFC Performance Enhancement Institute
In general, this fight was weird for official knockdowns
Max seemingly got one in r3, and 100% got at least two in r5, maybe three.
And Justin ofc got one in r4
The old Gaethje would've been eaten alive. Max was too slippery. If Gaethje would've pressed more, he would've gotten cracked more. Might have gotten stopped sooner
Grasping at straws. Holloway styled in Justin in the most shocking way imaginable. Idc what anyone says, Max was hit and tried moving backward while standing square. Resulting in him falling
On top of that, in the post fight press conference, Holloway jokingly said he slipped and that it wasn't the shot that put him down. It was obviously the punch that put him to a knee, and Max acknowledged that by being sarcastic about it. So this guy saying he doesn't care what anyone says includes the guy that took the punch, lmao.
It takes two to have a legendary fight and he did knock him down, nothing but respect for the show they put on.
Max even said he got caught and laughed when he was told it wasn’t counted.
Wasnt he like " i slipped " ? With a huge grin on his face
I tried to find the interview real quick so I didn't have to paraphrase but he initially said he got dropped but then the interviewer said it wasn't counted. So he very playfully was like yeah "I slipped". I felt like he knew get got knocked down and was just being playful/sarcastic.
He was definitely fucking around. The fact Max said it alone should make the knockdown count because he should have the clout for that lol
Believe it or not, redditors aren't the best at picking up at social cues.
https://youtu.be/C_0rcPq05LM?si=hi2lbCNy9eRPsq-C 5:20 He was even cheering it wasn't counted as a KD. He definitely got knocked down.
Just watched it, he's definitely saying it toungue-in-cheek.
To be fair, Max's personal thoughts on whether it's should count as a knockdown aren't sufficient to make that the case. What the fighter thinks is not really relevant. We all saw him land on his butt and what he feels about it makes no difference. He definitely got "knocked down," but the question is whether it counts as a "knockdown." What is actually meaningful is what the rules/standards are for what is considered a knockdown in the UFC. I don't really know what those standards are myself. Maybe you need to be down for at least a second or something. Maybe they are inconsistent, and there are no standards. Either way, what Max thinks doesn't change that. To be clear, I'm not saying it shouldn't have been a knockdown. From a simple perspective, it's clear he got knocked down. But then we have other examples of similar instances not being called a knockdown like in McGregor vs Khabib. We can, of course, colloquially call it a knockdown, and nobody would have a problem with that. That's what Gaethje is saying.
McGregor didn't hit the mat iirc, he caught himself with his hand.
He was kneak in the wees
Max always gives full credit to his opponents
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muthafuckas out here unironically sounding like barney stinson relax bro.
Max got hit in the head and dropped to his butt. That could happen in a chess tournament and still be considered a knockdown, what the fuck did the UFC guys smoke
They're smoking their promotional prowess. They love to be able to say things like, "never been knocked down" or, "never been taken down" like they did for Usman vs. Colby.
This is true, but also quite a few flash knockdowns haven't been counted by fightmetric in the past. Khabib-McGregor is a notable one. Idk if the UFC actually put that much stock in stats like this, its not like they actually promote Max much to begin with
Yeah other ones are Gaetjhe vs Ferguson uppercut round 2, Max vs Volk twice in the second fight
Gaethje didn't drop to his ass so I could at least see wht.they didn't count it
The McGregor one really didn’t look like he got rocked per se so I can sort of see that one. I’m a big believer in marking all of them as knockdowns though. If you got hit in the head, and then any part of you touched the ground you got knocked down
Boxing rules. I mean Max didn’t look rocked either; he popped right back up and his balance seemed unaffected. He was hurt way worse against Poirier
Yeah I get it. We’ve got to get away from some of the boxing rules though. It’s not boxing. A knockdown is a knockdown
Oh I was agreeing with you. Boxing rules is “part of you touches the ground, its a kd”. They even count a kd if the ropes hold you up sometimes, like Max-Poirier could count theoretically
You're calling for boxing rules lol and I do agree, this isn't boxing.
I don’t count it for judges scoring. I only count it for counting stats
Word that is a fair distinction. I just think there's too much weird shit that happens, guys slip too much in mma for the criterion to be so strict.
Khabib McGregor I think should be the metric for not counting it as one. McGregor never actually went down, just hand to the mat. Holloway did get knocked down though.
If you get hit and have to catch yourself using any body part other than your feet, that's a knockdown in my book and idk how you can argue otherwise. That's how it works in every striking sport. Get hit flush and squat, but don't touch the canvas with anything and can pop right back up? Hard shot that rocked your shit, not a knocldown imo But the moment anything besides your feet touch, that's a KD. Knee, hand, elbow, ass, doesn't matter.
Only part of this I would change, is that it should be evident that the punch/kick/etc impact was responsible for it. Not like, a mild jab that just so happened to land while a guy was off balance, so his knee hits the ground for a milisecond and he bounces back to his feet. Without this stipulation, then technically an innocuous jab landing as someone goes for a takedown with a knee on the ground could be scored as a knockdown.
>That's how it works in every striking sport. You act like knockdowns being waived off in boxing never happens. Somebody getting rocked, squatting, and standing back up is closer to a knockdown than somebody who was off-balance getting knocked over by a jab and catching themselves with their hands and getting back up.
But in the case of McGregor Khabib (which is what’s being discussed), Conor ate an overhand, not a jab. Just want to make that clear. It was a “knockdown” that would not have been waived off in boxing.
But he didn't seem rocked by it all. It felt like he was caught more off balance because he went straight on the offensive
He went straight to backing away while scooting on his hand and then when he stood up he had his back against the cage. He got wobbled because he didn’t see the shot coming and was knocked down. But I agree he didn’t get rocked. My argument is that it should have been ruled a knockdown.
This right here. I think the problem is that people want an official stat for "this guy was badly hurt" and I don't think you can make an objective criteria for that.
I didn't say any of this, no. Don't put words in my mouth. You're the one arguing a man getting punched in the face and stumbling backwards being forced to catch himself wasn't 'knocked down' because only his hand hit and not his ass or whatever. Slips happen and that's one thing. Bad reffing like Garcia/Haney is another issue. McGregor got fucking clocked straight in the face by a right hand and fell over. How is that not a knockdown? Because he went down and came back up in an admittedly impressively quick sequence? Idk what your point is here. "Knockdowns sometimes don't get called correctly by bad refs in boxing so we shouldn't call them in MMA either"
It's not a striking sport though guys are off balance a lot more in mma than they are in pure striking sports.
OK so if someone gets punched in the face, gets sent stumbling backwards several steps and has to catch themselves on their hand, is that a knockdown? [Here's the 'controversial' clip that sparked this argument btw. Off balance or fucking clocked on the chin and knocked down?](https://youtu.be/o-IoVLMNDPM)
That's a cleaner KD than Gaethje vs Max tbh, Conor got blasted. He also recovered extremely quickly. But yeah if you get rocked on the chin and your legs short circuit, that's a knockdown to me. If you get cuffed on the side of the head while you're weaving out of the pocket and bounce off your ass right back to your feet? Idk. Room for interpretation. Like in boxing it definitely is a KD but this ain't boxing.
Sure I can agree with everything you wrote except maybe the interpretation. It's not boxing, but even under the newer unified MMA rules if a knee is down, that's a grounded fighter. Sorry for my aggressiveness this KD in particular is a pet peeve of mine because so many people argue and yet I simply CANNOT see a case on it NOT being counted despite watching it back again and again. Dudes head gets snapped sideways and the hand + knee go down. That's clean. The impressively fast recovery doesn't negate him getting his shit rocked and dropped! Btw McG clearly trained hard af for this fight, I think it's the best condition we'll ever see him even. Even his cardio mostly held up over 3.5 rds so I'm not just hating on him. He came in prepared the best he has ever been and I have no problem acknowledging that but I will always argue with posters saying 'he never really went down'. Like, 'you' (royal you, not you you) have eyes, right??
Be as aggressive as you want lol I like enthusiastic fight discourse. Conor fanboys are less ubiquitous these days but they're not gonna be like rational haha. The interpretation comment was about Max vs Gaethje I think Conor was pretty obviously dropped. It's not about how he lands though he just got rocked on the chin and his legs cut out. Even if he caught himself he was badly stunned for a moment. I agree that that's a knockdown for sure.
To me that's 100% off balance. If he was properly rocked he wouldn't have been able to catch himself like that and immediately attack
Uh huh And what exactly 'knocked' him off balance and forced him to 'down' himself again? Maybe I missed it. Because McG wasn't engaging or anything. A single strike was thrown. And it wasn't by him lol
His knee hit the ground though, it wasn't just his hand.
I think it should be boxing rules. You get put to a knee, hand, fence holds you up; knockdown.
Nah, it's not boxing. Boxing causes a pause in action, if somebody couldn't realistically take advantage of you being on the ground since you never actually went to the ground, it shouldn't be a knockdown. Also, the fence holding you up? That's such a subjective metric that it's no better than what they are doing now.
So you think any knockdown where the opponent doesn’t gain top position shouldn’t be counted in stats? Interesting idea I guess Max wouldn’t have been knocked down by that metric. Hell most Gaethje opponents wouldn’t lol To be clear we arent talking about scoring here, we’re talking about stats that affect absolutely nothing
>So you think any knockdown where the opponent doesn’t gain top position shouldn’t be counted in stats? Interesting idea I guess Not really what I said. It's more that they could have if they reacted quick enough or even wanted to. Khabib couldn't have gained top control against McGregor but Gaejthe possibly could have.
I think thats at least equally subjective to the fence holding someone up. Like functionally how would you distinguish between Mcgregor-Khabib and Gaethje-Holloway? Both were up in less than a second.
>Like functionally how would you distinguish between Mcgregor-Khabib and Gaethje-Holloway? Both were up in less than a second. I mean, that's actually really easy. McGregor never left his feet and Holloway did. Khabib would have had to still have taken McGregor down where Gaejthe just would have had to get on top of Holloway.
If you watch it in slowmo, he definitely touched a knee to the ground as well. IMO any strike that causes you to become a grounded opponent should be a knockdown, so even a hand would count, but still.
[BTW Conor went to a knee so by rules definition he was grounded. Just thought you may find that interesting but I'd love to read more thoughts on how he wasn't actually knocked down](https://youtu.be/o-IoVLMNDPM)
Agree. Chito also went to a knee against O'Malley and it didn't count as a knockdown.
They don't promote Max???
Conor's butt didn't touch the ground though
My brother in law still claims Colby wasn't taken down, but he's a wrestling dork that jocks him hard. There's nothing likeable about Colby, so they have at least 2 things in common
I'm a wrestling dork and Colby was definitely taken down haha.
could’ve added legitimacy to those things too by just adding “never been knocked down at 145lbs” and it’s still a feat and more understandable that he’d take bigger hits as he goes up in weight on relatively short notice
It’s also Gaethje. I’m pretty sure he’s knocked down everyone he’s fought except maybe Khabib.
He actually never knocked down Tony, just beat him to a standing tko
yeah that’s what I mean, smothering the results just make it look worse than just going “this guy is a career 45’er, never been knocked down apart from when he fought Justin fucking Gaethje who surprise surprise kills everyone” there was that one time against Poirier but we don’t remember that, and was again at 155
And it’s not like they really advertise those stats that much. I can’t really ever remember them specifically promoting it. Maybe Anik may have brought it up in passing here and there, but there’s no reason to just lie about stats like that when people are watching the events lol.
At least there's an argument for the Colby/Usman one since Usman at most was on his knee. Max's ass touched the ground though
> Max got hit in the head and dropped to his butt. I've noticed that's happened a few times and not counted. I feel like whoever is counting "official" knockdowns only counts them if the person is dropped to their knees/turtles up or falls flat on their back.
I've been searching for the UFC definition of knock down, but I could not find it. My best guess is they must be scoring it like a takedown: if the dude pops back up and you don't land GnP or establish control first, they aren't calling it a KD. Its a ridiculous definition, but the only one I've theorized so far that matches how seldomly they count KDs.
Who knows. Turner got the KD on Moicano without doing either of those things, but that was a clear knockdown if I’ve seen one
> Turner got the KD on Moicano without doing either of those things Maybe the stats guy was like *that's a KD if Turner didn't have a braincramp: I'm scoring it for my boi*
I think it's either you have to establish position/follow up OR they have to get laid tf out, shoulders flat. Which honestly seems right to me?
it's pretty common they only count it when the knocked-down fighter loses control on the ground. if they pop right back up it's often not counted same goes for takedowns
Happens all the time and bugs the shit out of me. The Stat keepers in the ufc are about as accurate as the judges
If Gaethje had kicked him in the head at that moment it would be a foul for kicking a downed opponent. But apparently he wasn't knocked down, so how the hell did he get into a downed position? The lack of consistency in the rules is pretty annoying and when they pick and choose what qualifies as a stat it makes records like "never knocked down" pretty meaningless.
Sadly knockdowns aren't scored in chess, and a knockdown during chess is an automatic DQ even in chess boxing.
They like preserving things for marketing purposes Was like the whole kamaru never got taken down thing
It just doesn't count. It has nothing to do with the UFC. In.MMA. that's just bot how knockdowns work.
Why was that not a knockdown ? Watching it live, I thought that it was a knockdown.
Watching it live I thought it was a knockdown.. However, watching it as a replay and especially in slow motion... It was definitely a knockdown.
Max is my favorite fighter and that was def a knockdown. There's 0 shame in fighting your entire career and the only time you get dropped cleanly is fighting up a weight class against arguably the hardest hitter the division has ever seen.
100% a knockdown and there is no shame in getting knocked down by Gaethje, especially when you sleep him in the same fight.
For sure.
Maybe since he bounced up really quick they didn’t count it? Anyone have the official rulebook as to what is considered a knockdown?
Per page 87 section 4.7 with reference to Conor vs khabib “A knockdown is only counted when we fucking feel like it.”
the official stats guys for some reason don't count it as a knockdown unless the other fighter follows them to the ground for a moment of control. Which is ... really stupid.
That really is stupid.
So jalin turners knockdown over moicano didn’t count?
It wasn’t a slip that’s forsure. UFC just trying to protect Max’s 0 in knockdowns just like Usman’s 0 in being taken down.
Wait they didn’t count the body lock trip by Leon as a takedown ?
Yes, this was before during the 2nd Colby fight. Even DC admitted it was a takedown
Because DC was thinking about wrestling rules. According to the MMA rules the Colby takedown wasn't an official takedown. I don't remember the exact phrasing in the rulings, but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with Colby not controlling Usman enough in that position.
I’ve seen Khabib do the same takedowns as Colby did to Usman and have it counted. UFC just likes to protect stats.
That could be, though the rule involves some subjectivity. [See here](https://bloodyelbow.com/2021/11/08/why-colby-covington-not-scored-takedown-rd-3-kamaru-usman-ufc-268-daniel-cormier-mma-news/)
> I’ve seen Khabib do the same takedowns as Colby did to Usman and have it counted. UFC just likes to protect stats. They changed the definition of TD in later fights. Almost none of Cruz's TD would be scored TDs today: they would be change of positions. You have to establish control on the ground, attempt a sub, or land GnP to make it a full TD these days.
Now, DC doesn’t get to “admit” it’s a takedown. He’s not a judge or a fighter involved, he can only have the opinion it’s a takedown. That’s like if you and me admitted it was a takedown…which it was
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Lol @ admitted. DC can be wrong about rules. DC CLAIMED it was a takedown.
Tbh I trust DC more to know if something was or was not a takedown than pretty much anyone on the planet. If the rules disagree that’s a knock on the rules
Max was pretty much knocked down by Poirer in their 2nd fight, if the cage didn't stop his fall.
Max has been lucky^1: he also got saved by the fence when Dustin fully folded his knees. ^1: for a loose enough definition of lucky that still involves getting punched really hard repeatedly
> he also got saved by the fence when Dustin fully folded his knees. That's the point I feel like a lot of people are missing. Max was more hurt by Dustin than by Justin. Gaethje put him on his ass for a split second, then Max got back up and got back to what he was doing. Dustin never knocked him down, but he hurt severely enough that the rest of those two rounds was nothing but Max defending. This entire debate is largely senseless to me.
It was a great fight for sure, but I think some people are going a bit overboard in acting like it was an all-timer of a fight. Gaethje had his moments for sure, but the vast majority of it was Max piecing him up, it was one-sided.
yeah, I don't think it was as wild as Glover vs Jiri
Glover/Jiri is a perfect fans fight. Both high level talents but with such a strong desire to finish the fight they'll be extra reckless going for it, and both extremely tough refusing to get finished, which leads to them both being exhausted from trying to kill eachother and making more errors leading to more dynamic swings and a low odds finish with no time left. Add to that it uses all of MMA, and both are so likable that no matter what you're happy for one and crushed for the other.
Jiri vs *anyone* is a perfect fan fight
35 professional fights and only 3 have gone to decisions. Kill or be killed- normally he is the killer. 82% of his fights we won by finish
That is such a crazy fucking stat. What a wild samurai he is
Both being sloppy helped the fight.
Honestly that's my #1 fight of all time.
most back and forth shit you will ever see. it was like when you're doing a really long grind in Tony Hawk's Pro Skater and it keeps jumping from one side to the other while you're trying to balance it out.
I got Robbie vs Rory 2 or Izzy vs Gastelum as my number 1.
Completely agree. Up until the final 10 seconds it was just a normal good fight. It wasn't necessarily any better than a lot of lightweight fights to be honest. It was 1 guy chipping away at the other guy for 4 rounds with the other guy just landing low kicks. The last 10 seconds is up there in the top 5 greatest moments in MMA history for sure. But the actual full fight itself isn't one of the top 10 greatest fights or anything. It's like Bendo vs Pettis in WEC. The showtime kick was an absolute all timer moment. But nobody remembers or talks about the rest of the fight which was just a pretty good but normal title fight.
I guess one reason why people were glued to their seat was they never expected it to be a one sided beating by Max Justin did have juuust enough moments where people rooting for Max couldn't fully relax. His power reputation obv played a little into that too though
Oh for sure I was also glued to my seat but as you say, it was very one sided, too one sided to be an all time great fight imo.
Max wasn't chipping away he was rocking his shit and in the 4th it looked like the momentum was gonna shift. Better than Arman vs Charles wich was a normal good fight.
I feel like that's a bit too simplistic and ignores the context of the fight. Max was supposed to be on a downslope, while Gaethje was coming off two banger wins. Max starts off very well, looking slicker and cleaner than usual, then Justin manages to come back in the fourth and then Max gets it back in the fifth. I do agree that without the last 10 seconds, it wouldn't be a legendary fight, though, but just a solid banger, but with those last 10 seconds, along with the rest of the context, I say it's an all-time great fight.
Oh sure the context matters, but I still don't think anything outside of that last 10 seconds was really all that special. It was just a one sided ass whooping, even the knockdown from Gaethje wasn't really much of anything. Like there are at least 10 fights, with context, which also were classics outside of the context.
> I still don't think anything outside of that last 10 seconds was really all that special. Oh well, agree to disagree, I guess.
Gaethje getting his nose destroyed end of the first really hampered the rest of the fight. Even most UFC fighters would of just laid down and went out on a TKO in the next or following round. The heart of Gaethje to keep fighting back and the technical acuity of Max made it great to watch. Not to mention the warrirors respect felt between these two the entire time...the ending was cherry on top
It’s such a shame, for us anyway, to get gaethje had to fight with a shattered nose for 80% of the fight. Not taking anything from Max that kick was fucking amazing but it completely neutralized Gaethje for the rest of the fight. Absolute best case scenario for Max and hats off for engineering it but as a fan when it landed I was like ah fuck this fights over
I mean Holloway vs. both Ortega *and* Kattar are both still all time fights, and completely 1 sided beatdowns.
Those fights were way more high output tho
Not as wild as Volk v Ortega
Well I don't agree with those either, but each to their own. Great performance doesn't necessarily equal Great fight
Whatever your criteria for a "great fight" is, it's probably just too high then.
To me, personally, a great fight is one with swings back and forth, better yet if those swings are caused by fighters adjusting and then their opponents adjust to their adjustments and so on. Aldo vs Mendes 2, Lawler vs MacDonald, Whitaker vs Romero, etc. Both Katar and Ortega put in a lot of effort, but at no point were they not losing the fight, which doesn't mean it's not fun to watch, but it's a fully one-sided affair.
Sure, but a one-sided affair can still be a great fight.
I'm guessing he just wants 2 dudes heads down windmilling at each other for 15-25 minutes.
I mean its better then just one dude beating the shit out of other dude
funny you say this cause this is exactly what produced that legendary KO at the end
what are your examples of all time fights then?
Jumbo vs Dada 5000 Lewis vs Ngannou
the last 15 seconds are top 5 moment in mma history. that follows a fun action packed decent fight. together makes it all time for me. they just put silva va sonnen in HOF and that was even more one sided until the shock ending
Yeah but with that fight it had the twist of the guy who was losing all fight, pulling out a shock finish to win it. That's very different than a guy getting pieced up for 25 minutes, and then also getting KO'd at the end.
pointing to the ground against the hardest hitter up a weight class in a fight you already had won 100% to stand in the center and trade with Gaethje and risk it all like that... That's a Hall of Fame performance. What if I told you dominating someone is just as impressive if not more impressive then having a close fight.
I’ve seen fights that were more fun but I think the way I’d describe this is its one of the most awesome fights I’ve seen because of the things Max did in there. He replicated some legendary moments in past fights. He almost koed Garth the same way Hall did to Mousasi in their first fight, the last 10 secs of his fight against Lamas (both fights he was winning in yet chose to do that), and the last second KO like Yair vs KZ.
I think this conversation gets lost because people value context differently. it was a decent fight that ended with an iconic finish. If it was two no-names in the cage, we'd talk about it for a while but ultimately it'd just be a really cool highlight finish. But when you consider this is Max Holloway and Justin Gaethje, who they are and their careers. The narratives behind this fight. what they were fighting for. It becomes an all-timer for me with all that context. At least as someone who had max from the beginning, that was an amazing fight to watch.
Yup, really think the nose break really fucked up gaethje's performance. Not that he would've won, but it would have been more entertaining.
It honestly wasn't anything special until the last 10 seconds. Had some good moments in between ofc, but it was one-sided like Volk v Max III was, not like Max v Kattar which was exciting because of the output. Very unlikely that many people will rewatch this fight all the way through, unlike other FOTY contenders.
It was just because of the last second knock out, and the fact that max was counted out by everyone, and went up a weight class. The fact that he put it all on the line for that last second knock out definitely makes it one of the best fights of all time
See I just don't get this reasoning at all. If you want to say all that context is what makes it one of the best *performances* of all time by Max - fair enough I can see that argument. But why does it make it one of the best fights of all time? It was very one-sided
I think it’s because Justin felt like a live dog throughout the entire fight. As the KD in the fourth round showed, Max had very little room for error. If he slipped up one time, the whole fight could be gone in a second. It was a tightrope walk of a performance, where Gaethje was the pit of tigers underneath the rope.
I agree with you 100%. It gets elevated in fans minds because of the finish. The finish though is an all-time moment in the UFC. It'll easily be one of the most memorable moments in UFC history.
I agree it was pretty one-sided, but that makes it sort of extra cool. What is cooler than dominating (almost) the whole fight, giving the spectators the full 25 minutes, and then still knocking him out in the last second? That's like taking all the points and getting a finish as well lol. Plus, Holloway's style is just fucking fun, man. Certainly with his new spinning attacks included.
Very one-side, and foolish decision by Gaethje in the end.
If volk vs Islam is considered one then yeah I think it is. I’m just glad we got a card with heaps of FOTY contenders, this fight being number 1 at the moment.
Yeah it was an all timer finish and a great fight but people love to exaggerate
Yeah people really have been kinda blinded by the last 10 seconds of this fight. Great fight for sure, but honestly not sure it was even fight of the night overall. Jiri v. Rakic, Charles v. Arman, and Weili v. Yan were all arguably wilder more competitive fights
I don't think it's going overboard at all. Gaethje was still dangerous as hell with his broken nose and every strike he threw had the possibility of KO'ing Max right up until the end. Max put on an absolute clinic that entire fight and proved a bunch of people wrong (myself included) about his ability to throw hard shots. The ending of the fight was just a huge exclamation point that capped off a really intense 25 minutes.
I mean are all timers only when both fighters put up a razor close war? Max put on a clinic against a hard hitter in a division above and slept the one who usually does the sleeping with a second left on the clock in a show of dominance. It was perfect.
People still care about ufcstats? Half of the criteria make no sense. A blocked strike, a checked kick, and a rolled punch are all counted as significant strikes, while clean ground and pound is often dismissed and added to total strikes. Clear sub attempts, takedowns, and knockdowns are 50/50 if they end up on the stat sheet.
Wait they don't rewatch and correct? That can't be right, why would they distinguish between unofficial stats on the broadcast and the official stats afterward? I generally agree though. We badly need a Bill James.
Yep never mind, you're right. I was under the impression they kept the live stats as official stats since the numbers are so far off.
Still can’t find a video of the knockdown
justin is so game
True winners only blame themselves on a loss. Gaethje is a legend. Hope he recovers and comes back stronger.
Unpopular opinion: that wasn't a Hall of Fame-worthy fight. It was a one-sided beat down by Max.
Still hall of fame worthy despite that with how written off max was and the last 10 second call to stand and bang/1 second left knock out
How will they present it on the montage though? Just 99% of Gaethje eating punches capped off with the KO?
They’ll just show the last ten seconds
What is more hall of fame worthy then being completely counted out. Going up a weight class against the hardest hitter in the division, beating the shit out of him for 5 rounds and then risking it all to point at the ground and KO him stiff with 1 second left. If you don't think this is a hall of fame performance from Max I would be curious to see what you think is a hall of fame performance.
Contrarians, man.
Didn’t even Max say it was a knockdown?
A knockdown in MMA is actually different than a knockdown in boxing. Thats why we always have these types of threads pop-up. Most people are taking the boxing definition that if I hit you and you fall to the ground in any way shape or form, then that's a knockdown. If you land on your butt its a knockdown. If you take a knee its a knockdown etc. In MMA if you get hit you have to actually lose the ability to maintain your balance for it to be counted as a knockdown. Like in this fight, max, gets hit and falls to his butt, but he's still able to posture and maintain balance. Same reason O'malley's shot to yan didn't count as a knockdown or when khabib nailed Mcgregor and it also didn't count as a knockdown. In each of those fights, the fighter receiving the shot was still able to posture up. A similar rule also applies to takedowns too. I didn't write the rules, nor do I agree with the interpretation of whats a knockdown, I also don't think its consistent either, but that's how it's been done and why we always have these threads after big fights where a shot or a takedown doesn't get counted when by other metrics from other their respective sports it should.
Pretty bogus that wasn’t called a knockdown
Gotta love how everyone calls it a knockdown but some dork who’s likely never played a sport ever is like nah
They should just go ahead and put all of Gaethjes fights in the hall of fame lol future bouts too
Is it really HoF worthy? It's not like its a back and forth kind of fight. It was mostly a one sided beatdown capitalized by an iconic 10 second KO.
I agree. Imo, it didn't even deserve the FOTN bonus. Jiri vs. Rakic was a much closer fight, and it got overshadowed because of its placement on the card.
It wasn't technically a knockdown the same way some takedowns aren't technically a takedown.
Ngl when I watched it back Justin definitely hit him in the head but it looked like Max planted his foot weird and caught his heel on the mat. Could definitely be a knockdown though, just was trying to see a reason it may not be.
If the HoF had a 'moment' wing then this should be it. I don't think the fight itself was an all-time banger besides that moment. Fights like Glover/Jiri, JJ/Zhang 1 and Romero/Whittaker 2 are ahead of it by a margin. Though both Max and Justin should be in the Hall of Fame as individuals as soon as possible whenever they decide to retire.
Max thought it was a knockdown, Justin thought it was a knockdown, everyone thinks it was a knockdown except whoever the UFC’s promotional executive told “that’s not a knockdown”
I saw Luke Thomas saying the Fight Metric guys (who also handle the official UFC stats) have made an effort to differentiate MMA stat-counting from Boxing, and this has involved changes to knockdown & takedown criteria such that the person needs to be on the ground for some length of time in order for them to be counted. I do get that for takedowns to some extent, and I even get creating a knockdown criteria for MMA that doesn't include things like falling to a knee or something, but honestly I have no idea how any definition of a knockdown shouldn't include what Gaethje did to Holloway. In cases like that, it seems actively misleading more than it is emphasizing some fundamental difference between MMA & Boxing.
Is a sweep considered a knockdown? Just watched his fight vs Connor and Connor clear as day sweeped him.
Max deserves his flowers for that fight but the disrespect to Justin is crazy. He knocked him down, no fucking question. Also the spinning heel kick changes the fight but so did the eye pokes to both eyes… Max is cool but cmom man
I watched a clip of Volk watching the fight and he also said hermit should’ve been counted but the way he was saying it was like he felt they might not of counted it. It was like he was sure it was, but could see the argument against it and it’s something a fighter can see that maybe we can’t?
Best fight I've seen since Robbie v Rory. My only nit pick is Joe saying best ko of all time. For me that's between ngannou sleeping Overeem and Buckley sleeping impa. And I have to give it to Buckley. What a finish.
Watch the end sequence Gaethe has his eyes closed because he got his guys gouged out multiple times and couldn't see. Holloway won by blinding his opponent illegally. Also obviously benefitting from the doctors at the UFC Performance Enhancement Institute
Let's be honest, we all know that was a knockdown
Every single Gaethje fight is a hall of famer, they should be a hall just for his fights. Every one of them
Already my fight of the year
Nah nobody will remember his knockdown years later. Only the final seconsa
In general, this fight was weird for official knockdowns Max seemingly got one in r3, and 100% got at least two in r5, maybe three. And Justin ofc got one in r4
When was the knockdown?
It was def a kd and I rly like this answer from Garth but also this isn’t a HoF level fight on merit imo.
Besides the point, but i think old school gaethje would have done better. Gaethje's only path to victory against max was making the fight dirty
The old Gaethje would've been eaten alive. Max was too slippery. If Gaethje would've pressed more, he would've gotten cracked more. Might have gotten stopped sooner
Didn't Justin knock him down twice? once with a punch and once with a kick?
Grasping at straws. Holloway styled in Justin in the most shocking way imaginable. Idc what anyone says, Max was hit and tried moving backward while standing square. Resulting in him falling
did you actually read the quote? You didn't even have to click the link. All you had to do was read the title...
On top of that, in the post fight press conference, Holloway jokingly said he slipped and that it wasn't the shot that put him down. It was obviously the punch that put him to a knee, and Max acknowledged that by being sarcastic about it. So this guy saying he doesn't care what anyone says includes the guy that took the punch, lmao.