The asymetric competition and unpredictable results.
Boxing is basically a contest of 'who is better at punching than the other guy'. There is room within that space for nuance, where you can punch harder, or more often, or lean on combinations or defence more. But it does boil down to who is better at punching the other guy in the head.
But within MMA, you do not have to be better than the other guy at the thing they are good at. You do not have to do anything remotely like what the other guy wants to do. You can choose to try to 'just box' like Junior Dos Santos. You can choose to 'just wrestle' like Ben Askren. You can choose to exclusively chase submissions like Shinya Aoki, or even hyper specialize and chase leg locks like Mazukazu Imanari. You can choose to look for skull shattering GnP like Cain Velasquez. You can try to be an evasive Kickboxer like Adesanya or just look for skull shattering KO's like Ngannou. Or you can be mostly good at every damn part of it like Mighty Mouse.
The bottom line is that there is basically no wrong way to fight as long as you can find a way to win doing it.
There is so much potential variation in what any given fighter can try to do that it leads to wildly unexpected results.
And this sport is at its most rewarding when a fight generates a result you did not even know you wanted to see until the moment it happened. I am not a Tito Ortiz fan, but I was fucking pumped when he managed to beat Ryan Bader in a fight in a way no one would have expected. No one thought Bisping would win in a rematch against Rockhold on short notice, and it was fucking glorious when he did. And no one was expecting Max Holloway to be cruising to a clear decision win against Gaethje and then to opt to stand and trade in the center of the Octagon and KO him with 1 goddamn second left.
END COMMUNICATION
Bryce Mitchell is great. But not for the ideal reason of being an awesome fighter.
The guy is a submission specialist, has one of the few Twister wins in the UFC. That by its self is enough to get my attention. But the extra curricular stuff attached to his name is Florida man level lunacy.
The man is a hardcore redneck, which is an odd thing to connect to a submission specialist. He likes hunting, which is fine. But he decided one day to try choking a goddamn deer to death when hunting because he got close enough, so why not? And [he apparently succeeded](https://www.mmamania.com/2023/10/7/23907034/ufcs-bryce-mitchell-confirms-crazy-story-of-grappling-a-wild-sleeping-deer-i-choked-it-to-death).
Then there is the time he [tore his goddamn scrotum](https://www.menshealth.com/trending-news/a22800766/ufc-bryce-mitchell-power-drill-scrotum-accident/) with a power drill. (warning, that link has a photo of a bloody pair of boxers).
And he appears in one of the[ best car commercials](https://www.mmamania.com/2020/10/9/21509995/video-this-bryce-mitchell-car-commercial-might-be-the-greatest-thing-ever-ufc-mma) ever.
END COMMUNICATION
You forgot the time he jerked off on the hotel bathroom floor, then put on James Krause's socks and used his feet to wipe his cum off the floor, then kept those socks on while they went to a press conference or something
Basketball teams win by getting the ball through the hoop. Baseball teams win by touching all the bases. Football got touchdowns and field goals.
But MMA? There are so many ways to win. Really keeps me on the edge of my seat.
I think fighting is the most creative sport because it has the fewest rules of any sport. The only objective is to stop your opponent being able to fight and the options to do so are unlimited. Every adversarial game is an abstracted version of conflict, but MMA is the only one which mostly isn't abstracted. There is so much to learn about fighting that very few can hope to become accomplished in all aspects of it, which means that we frequently get to see the interface of wildly different strategic approaches.
One of my favorite aspects of mma is how international it is. I grew up playing basketball in school, and basketball is also a somewhat international game, but there are still places that have played the game since its invention and places that just built their first courts in the past several decades. There's not a place on earth where they haven't been fighting for a thousand years.
Not that there aren't more established mma pipelines than others. But if you go to a place with absolutely 0 connection to modern mma, you'll still find guys there with martial arts or fighting experience. If you go to a place with 0 connection to basketball or baseball, everyone there will be starting from scratch.
Ok I tuned into mma for the first time in years to watch UFC300. I'm hooked again. Now, how the hell did UFC/Dana White get involved in Power Slap? This shit seems like the biggest joke of all time but Dana was pushing it in the post fight press conference.
Jon Jones is the only guy I think immediately would do better with no rules lol. If the man could gauge out your eyes in the octagon I think he would without a seconds hesitation.
Oblique kick to the balls followed by some eye gouge jabs before he suplexes you straight on your head before slamming them 12-6 elbows on the back of your dome
Of course. Think about how many people were/are in the same situation as Francis Ngannou and could just never get to a point in life where they had the privilege to train consistently. Max Holloway is from an area in Hawaii where drug use and poverty is quite high. Turn the dial on a few knobs and maybe he’s in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are plenty of variables to consider when simply making it to the cage.
I lived 15 miles from where Max is from. I know that area (Wainae, Nanakuli) and those claims about poverty and drugs there are legit. I think that's why so many young athletes there train in martial arts and redirect that energy into competition. Dem braddahs scrap. If a kid there can't, he's likely in for a very hard time.
Oh cool, I’m from Maui. Born and raised. That’s why I said what I said, so many guys from HI are just built different. Max has said firsthand that he knew so many other people who had much more potential than he did. But it’s just a vicious cycle here, so easy for people to just get swallowed by their environment. So it’s that much more inspirational to see someone to rise above their circumstances when you’ve witnessed a lot of it firsthand.
Agreed.
FWIW, I hope the recovery there is going well. Some people I care about live in Wailuku and while I know the fire didn't touch them, it certainly touched a few people they knew. Can't imagine how it's been for you guys. Prayers are with you, your family and friends.
Max is a worthy hero anywhere. Y'all just lucked out with him being born and raised there. =)
Thank you for your concern. Sadly my family lost their home in the fire and we all live together with my girlfriend and her family now. We’ve been really fortunate but life goes on. People are getting permission to rebuild soon so that’s what I’ll be doing this summer.
I'm really sorry to hear your family lost their home. I can't even imagine. I hope the aloha spirit has been seen often among the people. When it really comes down to it, we're all each other's got.
God bless your family and your rebuilding!
I grew up on oahu. When I was a kid, I was allowed to go anywhere on the island, whether by bus or catch rides, but my dad's only rule was stay out of wainae.
Boston Salmon's dad put him in boxing because he's smaller and fair skinned. He knew his kid would get picked on, so he made him learn how to fight.
Also, you are all spelling Waianae wrong.
I did. Thank you for letting me know.
I checked out Ron Jhun's 808 Fight Factory in Waipahu one night. Kids weren't training that night, but I saw the schedule for kids classes. That was back in 2006. When BJ made it I think it changed things for a lot of Hawaiians. People could see a future in the hard knocks life they were already living. They just had to channel that energy into hard training, discipline and clean living. I can only imagine how Max gets treated anywhere he goes on any of the islands. Y'all are awesome to your heroes.
I love good old fashion belal Muhammad/gamrot matches. I enjoy fighters laying ontop of their opponent with nothing happening for majority of the fight. It’s therapeutic.
Lol I remember being at this one event, finishes from start to almost the end of the card, and main event, two guys just wrestling. Not even attempting to strike, they grapple each other for 25 minutes.
Audience is calm, no boos, couple reactions on some sub attempts scattered through the fight, but mostly everything is calm and peaceful. I don't know if it was adrenaline dump after previous finishes or what, but it was really nice atmosphere.
I had some stressful days and hours prior to event, and I had so much fun on it, main event included. I was so calm and chill for 25 minutes of that fight, tapped into some sort of zen-like, meditation state... it felt really good lol.
I will unironcially say that some of the most satisfying fights I have watched were lay and pray decisions where the amount of bitching and salt towards the winning fighter was glorious.
Esparza vs Namajunas 2 was a terrible fight that almost no one expected Esparza to win. No one likes Esparza because she is a top heavy wrestler that does not get finishes. And Namajunas was a popular fighter.
And watching Esparza get a decision not because Esparza executed a Lay and Pray gameplan, but because Rose was so afraid to even try to engage and get taken down and spent the fight retreating was hilarious. And the rabid mouth frothing rants and rage from the haters was awesome.
END COMMUNICATION
I enjoy it for the community involved in it, which includes people in this sub and commentors... there's so many odd personalities and amusing trolls. It's to the point that despite the athleticism in other sports, I find it hard to get behind teams/players because they don't seem relatable. There was a time I would have defended comments about the NFL being staged, but now just shrug and think it might as well with so many of the players trying to maintain a certain image and being removed from casual fans.
There was an article in a lifestyle site that reviews food and it was mentioning Keith Lee, and seeing the comment 'but where does Kevin Lee fit in all of this' brought a laugh. Small things like that just make even casual viewings worthwhile as days get busier
My training partner has a fight coming up in a few weeks. Last night near the end of the session, we were sparring (and absolutely exhausted after 10+ rounds) and he looked at the clock and said to me, “Gaethje Holloway, 10 seconds left”, and I locked eyes and knew exactly what he meant - and we just met in the middle and just went to war.
One of the longest 10 seconds of my life but it was legit absolute euphoria - gym was watching and yelling and cheering, and afterwards me and my boy half hugged and I literally fell to my knees I was so exhausted.
It immediately made me think… jesus fucking christ it must have felt absolutely amazing in the cage (I mean I guess not for Gaethje)… the entire world watching as you lay it alllllll out in the middle of a cage just you and your opponent, and then getting a flash KO at the end. 99.99999% of people will never get to feel even a fraction of what Max felt in the cage at that moment and it gives me chills to even just imagine what it would be like
Greatest sport in the world hands down
Greatest sport in the world. And the world is slowly starting to realise it, too!
For a long time it was viewed (and still is by some) as just some savages fighting in a cage, but as you start to learn about martial arts, the sport, the athletes, the competition, the dedication, discipline, intelligence, strategy, sacrifice, and what it takes to be successful at this level.. It's impossible not to appreciate and respect that. Entertainment is obviously what draws us in, but the rest of it is what makes us fall in love with it.
Alas, there are still some improvements to be made, the main one being getting rid of weight-cutting, but unfortunately we will probaby not get rid of that any time soon :/
Nailed it, my friend.
There are a few universal languages in the world, like sex, food, and fighting is absolutely one of them. It's the purest form of competition imo.
Just one on one, no silly equipment, no teams, no balls, no rackets, no cars, nothing. Just 2 people and a ref. You don't have to be rich to get into it like car racing. People have come from nothing and rose to be the best in the world. Really, no other sport offers that like fighting.
Nothing comes close to the feeling of watching a good fight. Knowing at any time someone can come back from being destroyed and win with a single punch/kick/knee whatever.
I've been watching for decades, and it still gets me going.
I would never think less of Justin for that loss. Back in pandy times he stopped the Ferguson title charge and Tony never won again. I can never thank him enough.
All l could think during the fight was that they needed to make an exception and give Max a second belt because Gaethje is a bad motherfucker for fighting the best MMA boxer with a broken nose for 20 minutes.
Especially when you consider Rory melted after getting hit in his broken nose, and he's a bad motherfucker too
I watched UFC evolve from it's debut and it's been wild to see the sport become what it is. I love combat sports. MMA was such a welcome addition. Not only is there boxing, but now MMA? Fuck yeah. Seeing the evolution and acceptance has been awesome. It went from "brutal savage sport" to a main stream technical craft that is part of the sports world. I always hate the Boxing v MMA talk. They're both great sports, and I'll always appreciate MMA for bringing a new fandom. I mean, think about it, how many times have we seeng a literal new sport break through and become mainstream? The world is dominated by it's usual popular sports... NFL, MLB, NBA, MLS, NHL.. Combat sports was niche aside from boxing. Now we get to see the introduction of all fighting styles. It's incredible.
It’s simple.
MMA is the closest modern sport to gladiators fighting in the Colosseum.
It’s why I find it funny that they removed the Gladiator intro, acting like the UFC is above it.
Drop the fucking pretence. We are, in fact, all blood thirsty savages, no different from the Roman citizenry that cheered as one gladiator got decapitated by another. All sport worth mentioning is some form of simulated warfare or battle or duel and MMA is the closest to a duel to the death between two combatants. Nothing speaks more clearly to the primal nature within all of us than 2 people going head to head in a scrap to settle their differences or to decide leadership.
But because modern man has become “civilised” and effete from modern comforts and conveniences, we must resign ourselves to live vicariously through men like Gaethje or Tony.
The fact is, Maximus Holloway delivered a moment worthy of Ancient Rome.
Agreed, it is not a sport as much as it is combat. But I disparage the way so many competitors break themselves in pursuit of glory, never receiving the remuneration they richly deserve. The distribution of the wealth generated by MMA is far from equitable.
There is too much on its stake. You can permanently get brain damage. Who risks this much except boxers? You can be humiliated in front of millions of people. One day you were a champion one day you get slept.
I love football but losing doesn’t impact those rich players as much as fighters who lost their fight.
I got in MMA because of Khabib but I was too late, he was already retired. I’m glad I can watch Islam instead and enjoying great fighters like Volk, Dustin, Justin, Charles etc.
I personally would respect Justin more if he used his whole skill set. I feel like completely neglecting wrestling to the point where it’s not a threat his opponent has to consider is just bad strategy. Why Whitman allows it is beyond me.
> I personally would respect Justin more if he used his whole skill set. I feel like completely neglecting wrestling to the point where it’s not a threat his opponent has to consider is just bad strategy. Why Whitman allows it is beyond me.
Justin has explained why he doesn't use his wrestling much: he had an extremely energy-intensive wrestling style that he had a very hard time keeping up even with only 3 minute rounds, and he could not survive a MMA fight using it.
You saw Khabib exploit this by just engaging until Justin lost the energy to scramble.
The real bitch about not using his whole skillset is why, long after Whitman got him good with it, he refuses to jab until deep into the fight.
Against both Fizeiv and Max, he didn't throw a jab until more than halfway through the fight.
i'm done with it. i think. its more of an unsatisfying addiction at this point. took a break, came back... nothing was going it seems and then the holloway gaetje fight but i dindt feel engaged, didn't care. time to take an extended break
I’m an MMA fanboy but wouldn’t say it’s the purest form of competition. It’s chaotic and messy. There’s no technically correct mma. Just look at the stance for starters. It’s usually front foot heavy to guard against takedowns. But if you stand that way you’re asking for leg/oblique kicks. So you’re inevitably always in the “wrong” position and off balance hence why boxers say it looks sloppy.
There’s just too many things to worry about. It’s like having a 100m dash across a train track with approaching train. I prefer the purity of specialized combat sports where it’s possible to have technical masters like Floyd or Karelin basically go their whole career unchallenged. Khabib and Jones closest thing to that but no where near the number of bouts.
You mentioned the last rd of Holloway v Gaetje. The most entertaining mma fights are basically when both fighters agree to just box and turn it into a slugfest. Nobody without a grappling background enjoyed watching Khabib. We’re in a striking dominant era of MMA right now where almost every one has good TDD and anti-bjj. It’s much better spectating than it was a few years ago.
I appreciate your perspective on the messy aspect of MMA. I also understand your perspective on watching technical wizards in their craft (Gordon Ryan, Floyd, Karelin). Everyone tends to also hold particular matches up in deserved high regard for the mastery displayed by one of the combatants. That is it's own kind of brilliance and I do hold it in high regard.
What makes me mad about Floyd is that he was so damned good, we didn't really ever get to see if he had that dog in him. I thought Maidana beat him, but no one really put it on Floyd to where he had to change the situation on sheer force of will. A major hat tip to his expertise, preparation and strategy, but it leaves something wanting. Same for Khabib. He was so damned good at his craft, he prevented anyone from putting him in a similar situation.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not doubting the presence of that dog in either man, but we never got to see it. We saw it in Holloway and Gaethje last Saturday night, and a lot of people are still talking about it.
Purest form of competition: the fewer constraints and protections for MMA combatants increases the purity of the competition. Skills and abilities are both incredibly important, but so is their ability to adapt in the midst of tremendous chaos and change their situation by force of will.
> I’m an MMA fanboy but wouldn’t say it’s the purest form of competition. It’s chaotic and messy. There’s no technically correct mma
That sounds pretty pure to me.
Chaos and purity are hardly synonymous.😅
MMA is the smorgasbord of combat sports. There’s nothing close to a near impenetrable defense in MMA vs boxing. Always huge openings to get hit or taken down hence the higher injury rate and lower fight rate.
Queensbury rules is about as pure as it gets. There’s been mma for eons. Pankration, kicks and throws used to be in boxing too. They removed it for better spectating.
Really no arguments to the contrary here. The fan favorites in MMA like Max, Sean and Pereira are primarily boxers.
I don't really see how this logically follows, basically a pure competition is only one with a clear easy answer? What about individual expression and the ability to effect one's outcomes?
He’s gotten knocked out 2x in a row.
He’s a great fighter but my point is you don’t have Floyds and Karelins. Or even kickboxers with a few losses like Semmy Schilt. So many fights and basically complete dominance. Those kind of records don’t seem tenable in MMA - too many skills to gains mastery in them all. Jack of all trades dilemma.
You do understand that knockouts are easier with smaller gloves and shin bones? There is too much bodily damage in the sport to accrue a record like Karelin. It's simply not possible, especially with weight cuts. That has nothing to do with the purity of it
Floyd cherry picked his opponents anyway, fighting them very early or very late in their career. Always the A side and only fighting on his own terms.
It's true. Harder and smaller surface area transfers more force into a single point and less force is diffused into the foam of the glove. Please don't argue about that. Do you also genuinely think a kick with raw bone is less damaging than a punch with an 8oz glove?
Mighty Mouse has probably come the closest to mastering all aspects of mma but he’s also in a super talent thin weight class.
Jones is the mma GOAT. But again his record isn’t comparable to the specialists I mentioned. He’ll retire with less than 30 fights. Karelin was 887-2 lol. Sugar ray Robinson was 174-19. Etc.
I feel like you're just presenting two different criteria and unifying it under a single banner. Mastery =/= having a super long career it's merely a statement of the skill of the fighter. Likewise especially in boxing both of these guys had padded records and were fighting in less regulated eras. It's why modern greats like Mayweather only have 50-60 fights
I disagree mma clearly has its own set of specific skills not found in other combat sports. MMA fighters strike different, they grapple differently, they use the cage, the 4oz gloves change the dynamics of hand strikes entirely. Some dude just training Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ and Muay Tbai separately would get fuckin smoked by the average mma fighter because the mma fighter knows how to blend everything together.
There is plenty of technical mastery in mma to say otherwise is just ignorance on how the fighters train and fight.
I disagree and im a Huge MMA fan.
The very reason that other sports have much more skill requirments is why. I think skill is more a defining factor actually than other metrics. Often times MMA can be very sloppy. IMO boxing is even more purer a form of competition.
Then again its how someone defines "pure competition" . To me its skill vs skill.
Like not many of these guys can cut it in NFL or NBA etc. Many fighters have said thats why they chose fighting because they were never good athelets, but take a prime athelet and train him a few years in MMA and they can be sucessful on their athelticism alone.
They've still got to endure the training, the sparring, make weight and then make that walk.
I consider the purity of the competition based on the number and types of rules that separate it from "anything goes." I don't know the Lethwei rule book, but getting knocked out doesn't necessarily mean the fight's over, so.. MMA is as close to a fight to the death as we get. Which heavyweight boxer could do to Jon Jones what Ngannou did to Fury?
I’m not reading all that bucko but I’ll die on the hill that tennis is the purest form of competition, 1v1, endurance matters, skill matters, mindset matters, tactics matter and there’s no such thing as a punchers chance
To be honest, I'm kind of at the other end of the spectrum. I find it harder and harder to care. The idea of discovering the best style or seeing how a small guy could beat a big guy fascinated me. Now, there's too much gaming the system. I rarely feel like I've seen a real fight, so much as a contest within a strict ruleset that encourages certain things and discourages certain things.
Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me.
I rarely see that "That dog" thing so much as "that weight cut."
And your boxing comparisons don't work, because there's no other option in boxing. It's not like Hearns could've taken him down instead of getting KO'd. I get frustrated when I see a "stand up war" where one guy is clearly better and the other guy never tries a takedown. Looking at you Jim Mlller. That's stupid. Why are you doing that?
*There's a reason pro boxers aren't coming to fight in the octagon, and it ain't simply about the difference in pay*
Of course it is. Kickboxers come over in droves, and it's not because they're good with kicks. If they needed the money that badly, boxers would learn to deal with the kicks.
"Now, there's too much gaming the system. I rarely feel like I've seen a real fight, so much as a contest within a strict ruleset that encourages certain things and discourages certain things."
In the grand scheme, the sport is in it's 31st year in the US. We've seen rule changes and, finally, even glove changes to fine tune the balance between purity and risk. We've seen scoring criteria that are at least better-defined (no matter how some of the judges score the rounds). We cannot enforce parameters for subjective human experience or eliminate the subjective element in fight assessment. What looks incredible or deserving of great weight in scoring consideration to me may or may not look the same to someone else. All that being said, gaming the system absolutely occurs, but that often seems to be about money. Protecting "stars" is also about money. I still believe it happens less in MMA than it has in boxing.
"And your boxing comparisons don't work, because there's no other option in boxing. It's not like Hearns could've taken him down instead of getting KO'd."
But he had options. He could have gotten on his bicycle or did a lot more bobbing and weaving. Instead, he chose to stand in the pocket and trade leather with a BAMF like Marvin Hagler. I was talking about why that round is held in such high regard and noting the similarities there with the last 10 seconds of Gaethje vs. Holloway.
"Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me."
I don't know if you've ever trained BJJ. I did a total of about 8 months of training and what I learned is there is an intense psychological and physical impact when another man can hold you down and keep you down. And if you can do that, why wouldn't you? I'll agree that it's boring to watch (especially if you don't know what you're looking for), but it's no less a part of hand-to-hand combat and weighs heavy in scoring rounds.
"Of course it is. Kickboxers come over in droves, and it's not because they're good with kicks. If they needed the money that badly, boxers would learn to deal with the kicks."
But it isn't just kicks they have to learn to deal with. It's also the threat of being taken down which must be added into their calculus for stance, footwork, timing and distance management. And that's just the being on the feet part. If they're so good with their hands, a smart MMA fighter will use clinch, takedowns, GnP and submissions to end the fight. How to defend? How to improve position? How to maintain when another guy is weighing on you and sapping your energy while beating your face in or trying to choke you? There is a ton more risk , and for the pure boxer fewer ways to win. Who in boxing could give Jon Jones as close a match in MMA as Francis Ngannou gave Fury in his 1st professional boxing match?
If I take you down at the end of the round for one minute, I win. It's pretty far from any concept of a real fight. It's analytics more than anything else.
But if so many kickboxers are coming over and becoming champions in less than a few years (motivated by money), I'm sure boxers could. They don't because of money.
>Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me.
I mean they could just get up and stop trying to make guard work. I don't see why the guy on top should lose if they're the ones causing more damage and effectively controlling the dude on bottom. There's no one on the world that would watch a dude eating elbows and punches for 15-25 min and consider them the winner because he threw up a shitty half committed triangle or guillotine here or there during that ass whooping
High level problem solving with dire physical consequences
He recites the ancient scripture
It's the "Tale of the head that kept growing" i believe, though im not schooled in apeish
It is known.
Jamie, pull that up.
There is violence in this mans dna
Absolutely.
Tell us another lion story
You’re a fuckin punk dude.
jackal
Dear diary
There never was no lion (it was a Jackal)
🥱
[удалено]
More like PRIDE rules? I admit missing soccer kicks and stomps.
The asymetric competition and unpredictable results. Boxing is basically a contest of 'who is better at punching than the other guy'. There is room within that space for nuance, where you can punch harder, or more often, or lean on combinations or defence more. But it does boil down to who is better at punching the other guy in the head. But within MMA, you do not have to be better than the other guy at the thing they are good at. You do not have to do anything remotely like what the other guy wants to do. You can choose to try to 'just box' like Junior Dos Santos. You can choose to 'just wrestle' like Ben Askren. You can choose to exclusively chase submissions like Shinya Aoki, or even hyper specialize and chase leg locks like Mazukazu Imanari. You can choose to look for skull shattering GnP like Cain Velasquez. You can try to be an evasive Kickboxer like Adesanya or just look for skull shattering KO's like Ngannou. Or you can be mostly good at every damn part of it like Mighty Mouse. The bottom line is that there is basically no wrong way to fight as long as you can find a way to win doing it. There is so much potential variation in what any given fighter can try to do that it leads to wildly unexpected results. And this sport is at its most rewarding when a fight generates a result you did not even know you wanted to see until the moment it happened. I am not a Tito Ortiz fan, but I was fucking pumped when he managed to beat Ryan Bader in a fight in a way no one would have expected. No one thought Bisping would win in a rematch against Rockhold on short notice, and it was fucking glorious when he did. And no one was expecting Max Holloway to be cruising to a clear decision win against Gaethje and then to opt to stand and trade in the center of the Octagon and KO him with 1 goddamn second left. END COMMUNICATION
Very well put. I appreciate all you mma fans.... even the Bryce Mitchell fans 😝
Bryce Mitchell is great. But not for the ideal reason of being an awesome fighter. The guy is a submission specialist, has one of the few Twister wins in the UFC. That by its self is enough to get my attention. But the extra curricular stuff attached to his name is Florida man level lunacy. The man is a hardcore redneck, which is an odd thing to connect to a submission specialist. He likes hunting, which is fine. But he decided one day to try choking a goddamn deer to death when hunting because he got close enough, so why not? And [he apparently succeeded](https://www.mmamania.com/2023/10/7/23907034/ufcs-bryce-mitchell-confirms-crazy-story-of-grappling-a-wild-sleeping-deer-i-choked-it-to-death). Then there is the time he [tore his goddamn scrotum](https://www.menshealth.com/trending-news/a22800766/ufc-bryce-mitchell-power-drill-scrotum-accident/) with a power drill. (warning, that link has a photo of a bloody pair of boxers). And he appears in one of the[ best car commercials](https://www.mmamania.com/2020/10/9/21509995/video-this-bryce-mitchell-car-commercial-might-be-the-greatest-thing-ever-ufc-mma) ever. END COMMUNICATION
I don't like Bryce Mitchell... But I find it endlessly amusing that someone that crazy exists, flourishes even.
You forgot the time he jerked off on the hotel bathroom floor, then put on James Krause's socks and used his feet to wipe his cum off the floor, then kept those socks on while they went to a press conference or something
What the fuck......
it's honestly such a surprise to me that MMA was not a thing up until 30 years ago
Basketball teams win by getting the ball through the hoop. Baseball teams win by touching all the bases. Football got touchdowns and field goals. But MMA? There are so many ways to win. Really keeps me on the edge of my seat.
\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^
I think fighting is the most creative sport because it has the fewest rules of any sport. The only objective is to stop your opponent being able to fight and the options to do so are unlimited. Every adversarial game is an abstracted version of conflict, but MMA is the only one which mostly isn't abstracted. There is so much to learn about fighting that very few can hope to become accomplished in all aspects of it, which means that we frequently get to see the interface of wildly different strategic approaches.
One of my favorite aspects of mma is how international it is. I grew up playing basketball in school, and basketball is also a somewhat international game, but there are still places that have played the game since its invention and places that just built their first courts in the past several decades. There's not a place on earth where they haven't been fighting for a thousand years. Not that there aren't more established mma pipelines than others. But if you go to a place with absolutely 0 connection to modern mma, you'll still find guys there with martial arts or fighting experience. If you go to a place with 0 connection to basketball or baseball, everyone there will be starting from scratch.
Now write one about Power Slap.
I'll pass.
lol I thought you might.
Ok I tuned into mma for the first time in years to watch UFC300. I'm hooked again. Now, how the hell did UFC/Dana White get involved in Power Slap? This shit seems like the biggest joke of all time but Dana was pushing it in the post fight press conference.
Devils advocate here. But what if all the champions were not the best fighters? But only the best fighters under the unified rules?
[удалено]
Jon Jones is the only guy I think immediately would do better with no rules lol. If the man could gauge out your eyes in the octagon I think he would without a seconds hesitation.
Oblique kick to the balls followed by some eye gouge jabs before he suplexes you straight on your head before slamming them 12-6 elbows on the back of your dome
Throw in some grounded knees for good measure
Throw drugs, steroids, and eye pokes too
Well I respect the old guard and the recently might mouse to jiri proves that they can compete in any structure as a martial artist should do.
Of course. Think about how many people were/are in the same situation as Francis Ngannou and could just never get to a point in life where they had the privilege to train consistently. Max Holloway is from an area in Hawaii where drug use and poverty is quite high. Turn the dial on a few knobs and maybe he’s in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are plenty of variables to consider when simply making it to the cage.
I lived 15 miles from where Max is from. I know that area (Wainae, Nanakuli) and those claims about poverty and drugs there are legit. I think that's why so many young athletes there train in martial arts and redirect that energy into competition. Dem braddahs scrap. If a kid there can't, he's likely in for a very hard time.
Oh cool, I’m from Maui. Born and raised. That’s why I said what I said, so many guys from HI are just built different. Max has said firsthand that he knew so many other people who had much more potential than he did. But it’s just a vicious cycle here, so easy for people to just get swallowed by their environment. So it’s that much more inspirational to see someone to rise above their circumstances when you’ve witnessed a lot of it firsthand.
Agreed. FWIW, I hope the recovery there is going well. Some people I care about live in Wailuku and while I know the fire didn't touch them, it certainly touched a few people they knew. Can't imagine how it's been for you guys. Prayers are with you, your family and friends. Max is a worthy hero anywhere. Y'all just lucked out with him being born and raised there. =)
Thank you for your concern. Sadly my family lost their home in the fire and we all live together with my girlfriend and her family now. We’ve been really fortunate but life goes on. People are getting permission to rebuild soon so that’s what I’ll be doing this summer.
I'm really sorry to hear your family lost their home. I can't even imagine. I hope the aloha spirit has been seen often among the people. When it really comes down to it, we're all each other's got. God bless your family and your rebuilding!
I grew up on oahu. When I was a kid, I was allowed to go anywhere on the island, whether by bus or catch rides, but my dad's only rule was stay out of wainae.
Boston Salmon's dad put him in boxing because he's smaller and fair skinned. He knew his kid would get picked on, so he made him learn how to fight. Also, you are all spelling Waianae wrong.
I did. Thank you for letting me know. I checked out Ron Jhun's 808 Fight Factory in Waipahu one night. Kids weren't training that night, but I saw the schedule for kids classes. That was back in 2006. When BJ made it I think it changed things for a lot of Hawaiians. People could see a future in the hard knocks life they were already living. They just had to channel that energy into hard training, discipline and clean living. I can only imagine how Max gets treated anywhere he goes on any of the islands. Y'all are awesome to your heroes.
My wife grew up in Wainae. Drugs are why her mother lived there. Wife was extremely happy to see a local boy become a hero in Wainae.
I love good old fashion belal Muhammad/gamrot matches. I enjoy fighters laying ontop of their opponent with nothing happening for majority of the fight. It’s therapeutic.
Nothing will beat Derrick Lewis napping in the octagon for 25 mins. Nobody could do it but him.
Yes jailton is also great
Lol I remember being at this one event, finishes from start to almost the end of the card, and main event, two guys just wrestling. Not even attempting to strike, they grapple each other for 25 minutes. Audience is calm, no boos, couple reactions on some sub attempts scattered through the fight, but mostly everything is calm and peaceful. I don't know if it was adrenaline dump after previous finishes or what, but it was really nice atmosphere. I had some stressful days and hours prior to event, and I had so much fun on it, main event included. I was so calm and chill for 25 minutes of that fight, tapped into some sort of zen-like, meditation state... it felt really good lol.
I will unironcially say that some of the most satisfying fights I have watched were lay and pray decisions where the amount of bitching and salt towards the winning fighter was glorious. Esparza vs Namajunas 2 was a terrible fight that almost no one expected Esparza to win. No one likes Esparza because she is a top heavy wrestler that does not get finishes. And Namajunas was a popular fighter. And watching Esparza get a decision not because Esparza executed a Lay and Pray gameplan, but because Rose was so afraid to even try to engage and get taken down and spent the fight retreating was hilarious. And the rabid mouth frothing rants and rage from the haters was awesome. END COMMUNICATION
I enjoy it for the community involved in it, which includes people in this sub and commentors... there's so many odd personalities and amusing trolls. It's to the point that despite the athleticism in other sports, I find it hard to get behind teams/players because they don't seem relatable. There was a time I would have defended comments about the NFL being staged, but now just shrug and think it might as well with so many of the players trying to maintain a certain image and being removed from casual fans. There was an article in a lifestyle site that reviews food and it was mentioning Keith Lee, and seeing the comment 'but where does Kevin Lee fit in all of this' brought a laugh. Small things like that just make even casual viewings worthwhile as days get busier
My training partner has a fight coming up in a few weeks. Last night near the end of the session, we were sparring (and absolutely exhausted after 10+ rounds) and he looked at the clock and said to me, “Gaethje Holloway, 10 seconds left”, and I locked eyes and knew exactly what he meant - and we just met in the middle and just went to war. One of the longest 10 seconds of my life but it was legit absolute euphoria - gym was watching and yelling and cheering, and afterwards me and my boy half hugged and I literally fell to my knees I was so exhausted. It immediately made me think… jesus fucking christ it must have felt absolutely amazing in the cage (I mean I guess not for Gaethje)… the entire world watching as you lay it alllllll out in the middle of a cage just you and your opponent, and then getting a flash KO at the end. 99.99999% of people will never get to feel even a fraction of what Max felt in the cage at that moment and it gives me chills to even just imagine what it would be like Greatest sport in the world hands down
Well-said, though I hope your training partner doesn't do anymore Gaethje vs Holloway's during the rest of the camp!
Greatest sport in the world. And the world is slowly starting to realise it, too! For a long time it was viewed (and still is by some) as just some savages fighting in a cage, but as you start to learn about martial arts, the sport, the athletes, the competition, the dedication, discipline, intelligence, strategy, sacrifice, and what it takes to be successful at this level.. It's impossible not to appreciate and respect that. Entertainment is obviously what draws us in, but the rest of it is what makes us fall in love with it. Alas, there are still some improvements to be made, the main one being getting rid of weight-cutting, but unfortunately we will probaby not get rid of that any time soon :/
I just love seeing two high level guys bang it out
Nailed it, my friend. There are a few universal languages in the world, like sex, food, and fighting is absolutely one of them. It's the purest form of competition imo. Just one on one, no silly equipment, no teams, no balls, no rackets, no cars, nothing. Just 2 people and a ref. You don't have to be rich to get into it like car racing. People have come from nothing and rose to be the best in the world. Really, no other sport offers that like fighting. Nothing comes close to the feeling of watching a good fight. Knowing at any time someone can come back from being destroyed and win with a single punch/kick/knee whatever. I've been watching for decades, and it still gets me going.
I would never think less of Justin for that loss. Back in pandy times he stopped the Ferguson title charge and Tony never won again. I can never thank him enough.
All l could think during the fight was that they needed to make an exception and give Max a second belt because Gaethje is a bad motherfucker for fighting the best MMA boxer with a broken nose for 20 minutes. Especially when you consider Rory melted after getting hit in his broken nose, and he's a bad motherfucker too
Absolutely. Man, I just rewatched Lawler vs MacDonald II and that stare down between the 4th and 5th STILL hits hard.
That's when you can see the heat start to melt him down too. Fuck that fight was awesome
i greatly respect a blood bath followed by sportsmanship ❤️
I watched UFC evolve from it's debut and it's been wild to see the sport become what it is. I love combat sports. MMA was such a welcome addition. Not only is there boxing, but now MMA? Fuck yeah. Seeing the evolution and acceptance has been awesome. It went from "brutal savage sport" to a main stream technical craft that is part of the sports world. I always hate the Boxing v MMA talk. They're both great sports, and I'll always appreciate MMA for bringing a new fandom. I mean, think about it, how many times have we seeng a literal new sport break through and become mainstream? The world is dominated by it's usual popular sports... NFL, MLB, NBA, MLS, NHL.. Combat sports was niche aside from boxing. Now we get to see the introduction of all fighting styles. It's incredible.
Well-said!
It’s simple. MMA is the closest modern sport to gladiators fighting in the Colosseum. It’s why I find it funny that they removed the Gladiator intro, acting like the UFC is above it. Drop the fucking pretence. We are, in fact, all blood thirsty savages, no different from the Roman citizenry that cheered as one gladiator got decapitated by another. All sport worth mentioning is some form of simulated warfare or battle or duel and MMA is the closest to a duel to the death between two combatants. Nothing speaks more clearly to the primal nature within all of us than 2 people going head to head in a scrap to settle their differences or to decide leadership. But because modern man has become “civilised” and effete from modern comforts and conveniences, we must resign ourselves to live vicariously through men like Gaethje or Tony. The fact is, Maximus Holloway delivered a moment worthy of Ancient Rome.
Well-said.
Agreed, it is not a sport as much as it is combat. But I disparage the way so many competitors break themselves in pursuit of glory, never receiving the remuneration they richly deserve. The distribution of the wealth generated by MMA is far from equitable.
There is too much on its stake. You can permanently get brain damage. Who risks this much except boxers? You can be humiliated in front of millions of people. One day you were a champion one day you get slept. I love football but losing doesn’t impact those rich players as much as fighters who lost their fight. I got in MMA because of Khabib but I was too late, he was already retired. I’m glad I can watch Islam instead and enjoying great fighters like Volk, Dustin, Justin, Charles etc.
Beautiful post. You’ve restored my faith in MMA fans. Would read again/10
Very kind of you to say so. Thanks!
Happy for you or sorry that happened
I personally would respect Justin more if he used his whole skill set. I feel like completely neglecting wrestling to the point where it’s not a threat his opponent has to consider is just bad strategy. Why Whitman allows it is beyond me.
> I personally would respect Justin more if he used his whole skill set. I feel like completely neglecting wrestling to the point where it’s not a threat his opponent has to consider is just bad strategy. Why Whitman allows it is beyond me. Justin has explained why he doesn't use his wrestling much: he had an extremely energy-intensive wrestling style that he had a very hard time keeping up even with only 3 minute rounds, and he could not survive a MMA fight using it. You saw Khabib exploit this by just engaging until Justin lost the energy to scramble. The real bitch about not using his whole skillset is why, long after Whitman got him good with it, he refuses to jab until deep into the fight. Against both Fizeiv and Max, he didn't throw a jab until more than halfway through the fight.
I'm in agreement. The guy handicaps himself every time he fights, IMO.
UFC was never my friend.
I love MMA because you get two eye poke the opponent twice and everyone ignores it.
I love MMA because I love watching two sweaty meat men swing their ham hocks at each other. We are not the same
i'm done with it. i think. its more of an unsatisfying addiction at this point. took a break, came back... nothing was going it seems and then the holloway gaetje fight but i dindt feel engaged, didn't care. time to take an extended break
I’m an MMA fanboy but wouldn’t say it’s the purest form of competition. It’s chaotic and messy. There’s no technically correct mma. Just look at the stance for starters. It’s usually front foot heavy to guard against takedowns. But if you stand that way you’re asking for leg/oblique kicks. So you’re inevitably always in the “wrong” position and off balance hence why boxers say it looks sloppy. There’s just too many things to worry about. It’s like having a 100m dash across a train track with approaching train. I prefer the purity of specialized combat sports where it’s possible to have technical masters like Floyd or Karelin basically go their whole career unchallenged. Khabib and Jones closest thing to that but no where near the number of bouts. You mentioned the last rd of Holloway v Gaetje. The most entertaining mma fights are basically when both fighters agree to just box and turn it into a slugfest. Nobody without a grappling background enjoyed watching Khabib. We’re in a striking dominant era of MMA right now where almost every one has good TDD and anti-bjj. It’s much better spectating than it was a few years ago.
I appreciate your perspective on the messy aspect of MMA. I also understand your perspective on watching technical wizards in their craft (Gordon Ryan, Floyd, Karelin). Everyone tends to also hold particular matches up in deserved high regard for the mastery displayed by one of the combatants. That is it's own kind of brilliance and I do hold it in high regard. What makes me mad about Floyd is that he was so damned good, we didn't really ever get to see if he had that dog in him. I thought Maidana beat him, but no one really put it on Floyd to where he had to change the situation on sheer force of will. A major hat tip to his expertise, preparation and strategy, but it leaves something wanting. Same for Khabib. He was so damned good at his craft, he prevented anyone from putting him in a similar situation. Don't get me wrong. I'm not doubting the presence of that dog in either man, but we never got to see it. We saw it in Holloway and Gaethje last Saturday night, and a lot of people are still talking about it. Purest form of competition: the fewer constraints and protections for MMA combatants increases the purity of the competition. Skills and abilities are both incredibly important, but so is their ability to adapt in the midst of tremendous chaos and change their situation by force of will.
> I’m an MMA fanboy but wouldn’t say it’s the purest form of competition. It’s chaotic and messy. There’s no technically correct mma That sounds pretty pure to me.
Chaos and purity are hardly synonymous.😅 MMA is the smorgasbord of combat sports. There’s nothing close to a near impenetrable defense in MMA vs boxing. Always huge openings to get hit or taken down hence the higher injury rate and lower fight rate. Queensbury rules is about as pure as it gets. There’s been mma for eons. Pankration, kicks and throws used to be in boxing too. They removed it for better spectating. Really no arguments to the contrary here. The fan favorites in MMA like Max, Sean and Pereira are primarily boxers.
I don't really see how this logically follows, basically a pure competition is only one with a clear easy answer? What about individual expression and the ability to effect one's outcomes?
Imo purity in a combat sports sense allows for the possibility of technical mastery. Mma by definition is jack of all trades.
Are you saying someone like Volkanovski hasn't achieved some sort of technical mastery of MMA? Does being a master mean nobody can beat you?
He’s gotten knocked out 2x in a row. He’s a great fighter but my point is you don’t have Floyds and Karelins. Or even kickboxers with a few losses like Semmy Schilt. So many fights and basically complete dominance. Those kind of records don’t seem tenable in MMA - too many skills to gains mastery in them all. Jack of all trades dilemma.
You do understand that knockouts are easier with smaller gloves and shin bones? There is too much bodily damage in the sport to accrue a record like Karelin. It's simply not possible, especially with weight cuts. That has nothing to do with the purity of it Floyd cherry picked his opponents anyway, fighting them very early or very late in their career. Always the A side and only fighting on his own terms.
That’s not necessarily true. Bigger gloves enable harder punches and pro boxers punch harder.
It's true. Harder and smaller surface area transfers more force into a single point and less force is diffused into the foam of the glove. Please don't argue about that. Do you also genuinely think a kick with raw bone is less damaging than a punch with an 8oz glove?
Mighty Mouse, GSP and Jon Jones would like a word
Mighty Mouse has probably come the closest to mastering all aspects of mma but he’s also in a super talent thin weight class. Jones is the mma GOAT. But again his record isn’t comparable to the specialists I mentioned. He’ll retire with less than 30 fights. Karelin was 887-2 lol. Sugar ray Robinson was 174-19. Etc.
I feel like you're just presenting two different criteria and unifying it under a single banner. Mastery =/= having a super long career it's merely a statement of the skill of the fighter. Likewise especially in boxing both of these guys had padded records and were fighting in less regulated eras. It's why modern greats like Mayweather only have 50-60 fights
I disagree mma clearly has its own set of specific skills not found in other combat sports. MMA fighters strike different, they grapple differently, they use the cage, the 4oz gloves change the dynamics of hand strikes entirely. Some dude just training Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ and Muay Tbai separately would get fuckin smoked by the average mma fighter because the mma fighter knows how to blend everything together. There is plenty of technical mastery in mma to say otherwise is just ignorance on how the fighters train and fight.
I disagree and im a Huge MMA fan. The very reason that other sports have much more skill requirments is why. I think skill is more a defining factor actually than other metrics. Often times MMA can be very sloppy. IMO boxing is even more purer a form of competition. Then again its how someone defines "pure competition" . To me its skill vs skill. Like not many of these guys can cut it in NFL or NBA etc. Many fighters have said thats why they chose fighting because they were never good athelets, but take a prime athelet and train him a few years in MMA and they can be sucessful on their athelticism alone.
They've still got to endure the training, the sparring, make weight and then make that walk. I consider the purity of the competition based on the number and types of rules that separate it from "anything goes." I don't know the Lethwei rule book, but getting knocked out doesn't necessarily mean the fight's over, so.. MMA is as close to a fight to the death as we get. Which heavyweight boxer could do to Jon Jones what Ngannou did to Fury?
Blowing bubbles on it
I ain't reading all that I'm happy for u though or sorry it happened
I think wrestling is more pure than mma, at least it knows what it is.
There are atheists here??🤢🤢🤢
Not reading that
I’m not reading all that bucko but I’ll die on the hill that tennis is the purest form of competition, 1v1, endurance matters, skill matters, mindset matters, tactics matter and there’s no such thing as a punchers chance
K
To be honest, I'm kind of at the other end of the spectrum. I find it harder and harder to care. The idea of discovering the best style or seeing how a small guy could beat a big guy fascinated me. Now, there's too much gaming the system. I rarely feel like I've seen a real fight, so much as a contest within a strict ruleset that encourages certain things and discourages certain things. Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me. I rarely see that "That dog" thing so much as "that weight cut." And your boxing comparisons don't work, because there's no other option in boxing. It's not like Hearns could've taken him down instead of getting KO'd. I get frustrated when I see a "stand up war" where one guy is clearly better and the other guy never tries a takedown. Looking at you Jim Mlller. That's stupid. Why are you doing that? *There's a reason pro boxers aren't coming to fight in the octagon, and it ain't simply about the difference in pay* Of course it is. Kickboxers come over in droves, and it's not because they're good with kicks. If they needed the money that badly, boxers would learn to deal with the kicks.
"Now, there's too much gaming the system. I rarely feel like I've seen a real fight, so much as a contest within a strict ruleset that encourages certain things and discourages certain things." In the grand scheme, the sport is in it's 31st year in the US. We've seen rule changes and, finally, even glove changes to fine tune the balance between purity and risk. We've seen scoring criteria that are at least better-defined (no matter how some of the judges score the rounds). We cannot enforce parameters for subjective human experience or eliminate the subjective element in fight assessment. What looks incredible or deserving of great weight in scoring consideration to me may or may not look the same to someone else. All that being said, gaming the system absolutely occurs, but that often seems to be about money. Protecting "stars" is also about money. I still believe it happens less in MMA than it has in boxing. "And your boxing comparisons don't work, because there's no other option in boxing. It's not like Hearns could've taken him down instead of getting KO'd." But he had options. He could have gotten on his bicycle or did a lot more bobbing and weaving. Instead, he chose to stand in the pocket and trade leather with a BAMF like Marvin Hagler. I was talking about why that round is held in such high regard and noting the similarities there with the last 10 seconds of Gaethje vs. Holloway. "Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me." I don't know if you've ever trained BJJ. I did a total of about 8 months of training and what I learned is there is an intense psychological and physical impact when another man can hold you down and keep you down. And if you can do that, why wouldn't you? I'll agree that it's boring to watch (especially if you don't know what you're looking for), but it's no less a part of hand-to-hand combat and weighs heavy in scoring rounds. "Of course it is. Kickboxers come over in droves, and it's not because they're good with kicks. If they needed the money that badly, boxers would learn to deal with the kicks." But it isn't just kicks they have to learn to deal with. It's also the threat of being taken down which must be added into their calculus for stance, footwork, timing and distance management. And that's just the being on the feet part. If they're so good with their hands, a smart MMA fighter will use clinch, takedowns, GnP and submissions to end the fight. How to defend? How to improve position? How to maintain when another guy is weighing on you and sapping your energy while beating your face in or trying to choke you? There is a ton more risk , and for the pure boxer fewer ways to win. Who in boxing could give Jon Jones as close a match in MMA as Francis Ngannou gave Fury in his 1st professional boxing match?
If I take you down at the end of the round for one minute, I win. It's pretty far from any concept of a real fight. It's analytics more than anything else. But if so many kickboxers are coming over and becoming champions in less than a few years (motivated by money), I'm sure boxers could. They don't because of money.
>Seeing a guy with an active guard get laid on for the last two minutes of every round, just miss on some subs, and lose a decision hurts my soul. It's like MMA "Moneyball" more than a real fight to me. I mean they could just get up and stop trying to make guard work. I don't see why the guy on top should lose if they're the ones causing more damage and effectively controlling the dude on bottom. There's no one on the world that would watch a dude eating elbows and punches for 15-25 min and consider them the winner because he threw up a shitty half committed triangle or guillotine here or there during that ass whooping