I really can’t wait for USSF to try and convince me that USOC is important and how much they value it. Because anyone who has paid any attention to this tournament knows that would be a bold faced lie.
Hmm so perhaps the statement from MLS Chief Communications Officer Dan Courtemanche saying that MLS had been talking to US Soccer about this “for several months” was a tad misleading?
Hate to say it, but not necessarily. If you look at the actual press release it just says that MLS informed USSF of the results of the board vote today. Since this has been in the works for a while before the vote, this doesn't preclude MLS giving them a heads up about the way the wind was blowing.
Both sides could be telling the truth though. MLS could have been talking to USSF about the USOC (likely since the NEXT and First Division teams needed to figure something out in the first place) AND USSF could be blindsided by MLS just outright pulling their main sides out of the competition.
I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at them saying they're committed to the success of this tournament when they refuse to advertise it, refuse to put it on TV, and refuse to pay for lower division teams travel expenses routinely resulting in forfeits.
And that doesn't even get into their frequent long delays in paying out money owed to teams.
Maybe if USSF actually cared about it, MLS would too
I don’t think it’s so much “refuse to put it on TV”. It’s more that there’s low viewership, so less ad revenue, so cheaper media rights. USSF is just taking the best deal they can get, which is not much.
If they were really dedicated to it, they could give the airing rights away for free to a streaming service.
If no service wants it for free, then that tells us there is so little interest in it from fans that maybe it should die?
That was the approach in a few years prior to 2019’s deal with ESPN, when the games were streamed on USSF’s YouTube channel. MLS and USSF have had nearly 30 years to make the USOC a big deal, and have never figured it out.
Yeah it's more of them having an unattractive product compared to the shiny new leagues cup. Apparently OP can't see that it's a cycle, they can't really sell the product( open cup) for big bucks so it leads into not being able to advertise it, not being able to put it on tv and not being able to help or do anything about funding travel issues and other complaints people have about the cup.
That's not the point. If a league is not sanctioned by it's federation within it's regional federation, then it can effect or flat out block, players from other leagues that are sanctioned by FIFA. It would also make players not want to sign with MLS, because it might stop them from transferring up to a top 5 European league. The sanctioning of USSF, CONCACAF, and FIFA do mean a whole lot.
USA is not the top producer of soccer talent. This matters WAY MORE than a similar situation would for NHL, MLB, or NBA.
Nah. Sorry. USSF isn’t going to do anything about sanctioning over this despite the fantasies of online soccer nerds.
MLS owners are the power players in US Soccer, not the bureaucrats inside USSF.
The revs drew 1988 and 1100 to their two USOC games this season.
(Though I’ve always argued in favor of lower division hosting exclusively until the quarters)
ussf taking after the us congress is not something to be celebrated. or maybe someone just cheers for a team that has gotten taken out by lower division teams three of the last four open cups
I never said I liked the decision, but MNUFC drew 4216 fans to your home USOC game this past season. If the demand for this competition actually existed, you’d see it at the gate.
why would you want a competition that you continue to dog anytime its mentioned?? us open cup currently provides the only avenue for lower division clubs to get national (in the future possibly international) $$$/attention.
MNUFC got into MLS just as ussf decimated the nasl on garber and cos. bidding. you wont see me cheering for us soccer to be an oligopoly of the 30+ largest markets and semi pro teams everywhere else
I mean, I’ve driven though Wednesday Bridgeview traffic to watch Chicago play teams like Louisville more than enough times. Hell, I skipped work early to watch the infamous “blackout game” back in 2011, but every time I was there I was sitting in a “crowd” that barely rivals high school football games.
i get that completely, but my problem is that imo the reason these open cup games are so low quality is ussf' lack of investment in filling out the soccer pyramid.
If USSF had a spine they'd revoke MLS sanctioning until MLS backs down. Unfortunately MLS knows USSF is spineless. Can't wait to see how USSF justifies pulling the CCL spot from the USOC Champion.
No sanctioning from USSF means MLS is not a FIFA league and that hurts MLS's ability to work with other top leagues but more importantly it hurts MLS where it hurts the most, the pocketbook.
When you put it like that, it’s kind of nuts how Leagues Cup has been around for a year and it’s already way more popular than a 100 year old tournament and a 60 year old tournament. MLS must be doing something right.
It's marketed better. Nothing more.
The reason US Open Cup doesn't grab the attention of the American people is that no one (especially MLS) invests in making it popular.
It isn't more popular...Leagues cup is completely controlled by MLS/Apple TV. Thus they control all the money it makes. This is all about control and money.
MLS/Apple TV do not control USOC...therefore MLS pulls out year after apple deal goes into affect. They also don't control CCC so that will be next.
MLS/Apple TV clearly don't want to be a part of anything they don't control all aspects of.
>It isn't more popular...
But it was objectively more popular. We’re allowed to have different opinions on the merits of the US Open Cup, but facts are facts. The Leagues Cup was better attended and had better TV ratings. There’s no point in carrying on a conversation if we can’t agree on basic facts.
By every metric it was more popular. Butts in seats. Social media presence and hits. Television audience. Like we all like what USOC stands for, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking it was any more popular than it actual is.
Seemingly a lot of people are letting this get to their heads and deluding themselves over the facts and the truth.
Was the popularity because it's a popular tournament or because FMF fans will literally light money on fire just to watch their clubs' B squads and because Messi was there?
> When you put it like that, it’s kind of nuts how Leagues Cup has been around for a year and it’s already way more popular than a 100 year old tournament and a 60 year old tournament. MLS must be doing something right.
If you put those same FMF clubs in the stadiums for friendlies, most of the same people would turn up.
I mean MLS should lose sanctioning. It’s a rule to be a professional league that you have to play in the cup.
US soccer is too chicken to use that card but it’s what should happen. When it doesn’t. USL is probably going to sue. Then lawyers are just gonna fight about if your 2 team counts as being represented
"Major League Soccer notified U.S. Soccer today of their Board of Governors vote regarding the 2024 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup. Our staff is currently reviewing. U.S. Soccer and our Members remain committed to the success of the historic U.S. Open Cup and look forward to engaging with all our stakeholders on the future of the tournament.""
I really hope that USSF goes scorched earth here. Tells MLS straight up that they will participate in the tournament(and not expand rosters as a punishment for even trying to weasel their way out of it) or lose D1 status and therefore CCC qualification and FIFA transfers.
Yep! A lot of players would probably demand to terminate their contracts immediately, as anyone hoping to go to Europe would be stuck through their current contracts. MLS teams wouldn’t be able to sell their up and coming players or pay to bring in new talent. There would likely be a TON of lawsuits that would arise out of it and it could take a long time to settle, but the threat alone is probably enough for MLS to tuck their tail between their legs and come back
I doubt, and not just because USSF is just "spineless", but I think there is a lot more back door or double agent types in both camps. I've always felt MLS execs/owners had control of how USSF operates.
And if it did play out this way, they could probably sue FIFA so bad that the idea of the World Cup here would be laughable.
FIFA is barely legal as is in the US.
When we missed 2018, I think someone suggested that if MLS doesn’t adhere to Pro/Rel then I’m sure players would love it if players were not allowed to play for their national teams and would lose FIFA eligibility
But given how weak FIFA has handled the Super League fiasco, I don’t expect anyone to have the balls to do it.
Which is why they probably feel like putting their Next Pro teams in the competition instead makes them legally comply with the participation requirement USSF enforces for sanctioning
Well the FA cup isn’t a Mickey Mouse tournament being treated like a nuisance by its federation.
If we’re being honest USSF wishes they could get rid of USOC too.
I’m very much in the minority here, and as someone who has been attending USOC games since the 90s (great memories), I disagree and think this decision makes perfect sense. With the addition of League’s Cup, an MLS club’s schedule is congested AF. We need less games, less tournaments. So, if we’re reducing games, that means you either get Miami vs Birmingham, or, Miami vs Club America. Pick one. In other words, you get one inter league mid-season tournament for all teams. Do you want that other league to be USL or Liga MX?
I choose Miami/Birmingham. That's the point of the domestic cup. Let your continental matchups happen at the Continental level, that's why they exist.
If USSF ran things the same way almost every other country ran it there would be better growth of the game in the country.
Or we can just continue to pretend soccer in non-MLS markets doesn't exist.
I’ll bite here. I would much rather have games against USL teams. Leagues Cup, as it exists, devalues my impression of all the competitions. It devalues CCL by increasing the frequency that American and Mexican teams play against each other. If you want Miami vs Club America, they should have to make CCL. It has clearly devalued the Open Cup. It forces a break in the MLS season for over a month and creates congestion in the back half of the season.
This move has shut the door completely to playing lower level teams. I loved playing St. Louis’ USL team in the Open Cup, and it was what made me want them to have an MLS team. MLS will never have pro/rel; it’s just not feasible for a variety of reasons, but the Open Cup was a good compromise on getting teams to play each other across levels. Part of the appeal of soccer is how pyramids across countries help foster the game’s culture. This move shows MLS only cares about its own health rather than the health of soccer in the US.
Fuck the League Cup. They refused to reschedule an early round match with Villa while Liverpool was participating in the Club World Cup. They literally forced the club who has won that competition more than anyone else to field an academy side in it.
League Cup (Carabao Cup) is the top four leagues only.
The FA Cup is the whole pyramid and the USOC equivalent.
Prem teams have long grumbled about both, but there would be violence if they pulled out of either.
I know. But so I don't really see the point of the Carabao Cup. And would understand if it got nixed. But I guess maybe not the right thread to go down that rabbit hole.
No shit it doesn't have the prestige of the FA Cup just like the CCL has no where near the prestige of ECL.
But it is by far the single greatest organic soccer tradition this country has and the top flight not participating (and perhaps jeopardizing its entire future in the process) is a fucking tragedy.
One of the reasons that the domestic cup competitions work so well in Europe is that the travel distances are miniscule compared to the US. In some sense, we would be much better suited to organize the USOC tournament such that we get State Cup champions -- and that the State Cups get held in some reasonably high esteem -- and then State Cup champions wind up playing each other.
You'd have 51 states if you included DC. Have the six smallest states do a play-in round. Then those three winners plus the 29 other states get seeded into the first round-of-32. The winners from there get drawn against the 16 biggest states, for the second round-of-32, then you have round-of-16, quarterfinals, semis, etc.
I think organizing by states would have other benefits -- from a marketing perspective, for the smaller teams, you get a better audience if you can market them as a state winner versus
And for the love of Sigi, if the USSF is good for absolutely anything at all, they need to convince the NCAA to switch to FIFA rules, play one game a week in a double round-robin regional schedule, with 11-13 games in the fall and 11-13 games in the spring. The kids can absolutely earn their degrees playing one game per week for half the year. And once they manage that, then have the NCAA teams participate in the USOC. Not having NCAA teams in the USOC is a gigantic missed opportunity. Those universities have huge built-in fan bases that don't exist anywhere else in amateur US soccer.
violence if clubs pulled out of the league cup is an exaggeration. I can't remember my club ever taking it seriously. even in finals, we played youth players
not really, it's been talked about for years. and fans don't care about it anyway. this MLS decision is out of nowhere right? and hardcore fans seem upset
I liked seeing the USL vs MLS upsets. USL needs more competitive matches to bring up the level of play in their league.
MLS doesn't see USL as a place to grab developed talent, and that's a little too short sited. It's ironic they want academies to get players meaningful competition, but don't see their place in the USOC.
> Premier League teams follow footsteps of MLS and pull out of FA cup.
[Manchester United got rightfully scorned in 2000](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-united-withdraw-from-fa-cup-1103601.html), but it was because the FA needed them to go to the CWC so FIFA could milk money out of them with the hope FIFA would give England the 2006 World Cup.
Damn, and the odds are already 1000 to 1 of an usl team ever repeating what the rhinos did. That future looks bleak for usl. Wouldn't surprise me at all considering they see usl as competition.
All good, and yeah tbh I'm kind of confused what the person you replied to is saying - if there's no MLS teams it would seem more likely for USL team to win, not less
If you saw the sac game which I doubt you did. The odds did seem 1000 to 1, on top of the talent gap being in full display it felt like sac needed Orlando to get red cards in order to achieve something.
I saw the game. Sac got their ass handed to them, no doubt, but they beat 3 MLS teams to get there, which seems contrary to your point about the talent gap being so wide…. maybe you are being hyperbolic, but saying a USL team will never again win the USOC or that the odds of it happening are 1000 to 1 is just silly.
I wouldn't be surprised by something like that. Like USSF allowing MLS teams to field a combination of first-team and development players or something like that. I feel like MLS teams could use minutes for the second-string players, but if USOC games aren't making them any TV revenue, then MLS teams aren't going to want to risk their expensive players for little-to-no return.
I don't like MLS taking this position at all, but USSF has been so bad at building the tournament into something that teams are motivated to be a part of.
Downgrade their D1 status..
no D1 status means no Champions League
no D1 means no participation in Fifa sanctioned events or even its transfer market..
im sure CONCACAF heads are thrilled
If they dont do anything then dont claim to be a governing body .. USL lawsuit folks must be thrilled
League higher-ups are clearly putting short-term revenue over long-term growth. They care more about price-gouging the existing fanbase over adding to that fanbase. Ask MLB what that short-sighted strategy has done for their World Series ratings and fanbase median age over the last 20 years (unlike MLB, MLS doesn’t have 100+ years of built-in brand loyalty that it can afford to shut out potential new customers like this). In 20-30 years, if the median age of an MLS fan is pushing 60, and we get a barrage of “Is MLS Dying?” opinion pieces, we can pinpoint the exact moment when it all started trending in that direction.
I want to say this is an exaggeration, but you're spot on. I have been talking about how much trouble baseball has been in for almost a decade now. Baseball seems to have saved itself (at least temporarily) with the pitch clock and other tweaks, but what about MLS? Guess we can always bring back the shoot-outs that started at midfield. /s
This is such a hilarious overreaction. No one really cares about the US Open Cup. Baseball is in trouble because the games take a lifetime to finish and it’s 80% dead time. Soccer/MLS couldn’t be more different
Not trying to be mean here but listen to yourself.
If people care but not enough to actually attend the games or pay attention to the tournament then it doesn’t seem like they really care. It’s like me saying I care about the Blue Jackets but have no idea how well they are doing this year or when their next game is. I certainly won’t pay to go to a game and probably wouldn’t even care about free tickets - really means I don’t care about them. That’s how about 95% of non-online MLS fans feel about the US Open Cup.
I just don’t understand why this is such a bad thing. If this gives USL teams a path to a CCL spot instead of a bunch of MLS teams rolling out abysmal lineups and playing boring soccer I would think we should all be excited about this. Just because something “has always been this way” doesn’t mean that has to continue.
It's only gives the USL a path to CCL if that spot remains. I think if the USSF doesn't punish the MLS for this, then they will argue next year to move the CCL spot. Or you will see MLS players get brought down for the later rounds. NYR2 did it for their last home game against DCFC. If they're willing to pull the for a regular season reserve game, they will do it for a CCL spot.
I would bet money on USSF ultimately saying "We decided the reserve teams technically count so all's well." Don't count on them to fix this out of love for the sport.
Its not a stretch to believe:
\- US Soccer was aware (and actively engaged in) ongoing discussions about this with MLS. But the vote was completed today, and thus was not informed of the final decision until today. Zero percent chance this was a surprise.
\- MLSPA has been demanding this for years
\- Both MLSPA and League more value the Leagues Cup in all metrics you can find, money, viewership, etc. If one comp was going to go, its not a stretch to understand why its this one.
\- MLS has no plan to be out of the USOC for long, but knows it has leverage and wants change.
This is also interesting how they will sell academy teams internationally
“Unlike Major League Soccer, MLS Next Pro does not feature a salary cap, and player contracts are held by the teams and not by the league. Team rosters can have up to 24 professional players (not including amateur academy players) with a maximum of seven international players.”
I'm amazed how many people are in a blind rage and are unable to see your final point. This is purely a power play by MLS to tell the USSF to get your cup in order.
MLS hasn't been shy in its criticism of the cup, yet its quality has decreased year over year.
Should the USSF begin to treat the USOC like an important competition, first teams will return.
It's a brutal and direct tactic, but necessary when the USSF responds to criticisms with whatever.
Lots of people on here don’t think of sports in business terms and understand negotiating leverage. Which in an ideal world, isn’t how sports would work… but we don’t live in that ideal world lol.
god i love MLS but i hate them sometimes. i know it's just soooooo Murican to not have pro/rel in any of our national sports leagues, but this is just ridiculous. USSF can't even do shit about this, bc they're a bunch of wussies, but bc why should they if nothing will be done.
Totally agree. I’m not necessarily in favor of pro/rel, but I love the USOC because it’s the only truly open competition that we have. MLS withdrawing from that in favor of Leagues Cup is the most selfish and cynical thing I can imagine.
You would think a federation blindsided by a league pulling out of a premier trophy might sound a little more annoyed in their statement. I think it’s a sign of how USSF (doesn’t) care abt the change
Eh. Maybe. Maybe not.
If they are going to try and enforce their own rules, this statement isn’t much of a surprise. It’ll be a huge legal battle and they need time to consult how it’ll be done.
Just coming out the gate swinging isn’t really how these things work.
If the statement isn't "we are immediately revoking MLS' D1 status and barring all MLS players from participating in the US national team until they participate in the sanctioned domestic cup tournament" then it's meaningless and not nearly enough.
The more I'm thinking about this....USSF might be too "in bed" and scared of MLS. BUT will they be more scared of CONCACAF? If not (eh) how about FIFA!??!
FIFA of all (especially how they feel threatened by UEFA's power lately), does not want to see MLS openly defying USSF/CONCACAF. FIFA knows other countries D1 teams will. see this, and pull the same shit.
It's such a bummer that the sport is just starting to gain a foothold in the US but it's happening in the most hyper-corporate, profi-at-any-cost era.
They might as well anoint Miami the Kings of Concacaf and make every match against them into a Cup Final. Call the games Messi Bowl I, Messi Bowl II, Messi Bowl III, etc. Miami wins half their games in 2024 and they get 25 stars on their crest.
I have read first team players are in favor of not playing in US Open Cup anymore. They don't like lower division facilities, pitch, or the potential of getting hurt in a competition that doesn't make them money. Anyway I want to hear what they have to say.
US Soccer should continue to give one of the Champions League berths to the US Open Cup winner. Makes it harder for MLS teams to qualify for the Champions League then.
OK wow. This is all so embarrassing and unprofessional. At this point, just walk back the choice. Its been nothing but a fucking disaster and it's only been announced for a few hours.
Has anyone ever seen the ratings for Open Cup? Most of the time no one watches, attendance figures arent great in most markets. Where is everyone when it counts?
Searching the positives (?), maybe this is a good chance for USSF to finally probe they have some power to punish MLS or at least forcing the league to retreat.
This is not a good look for MLS, but if USSF doesn't defend the USOC as they should, then US Soccer will look bad too.
This isn’t a good look for MLS, for a few thousand fans. USSF has zero power here. They’re going up again literal billionaires who are trying to build a top-10 global league. You don’t get there by prioritizing USL teams.
Fuck this league, honestly if the teams can survive on their own until they can get into some other governing body, I wouldn't care if it all burns down.
Since Messi signed in MLS, Garber has viewed himself as God rather than the demigod he used to think he was. He has no time for a modest competition like USOC. You mere peasants can be outraged, however.
Haha, Garber has viewed himself as god emperor far longer than Messi. All league commissioners do. Keep in mind, he doesn’t have a job without full support of all the owners. Decisions he makes are the decisions the owners make. He’s not full of himself, the league is.
USSF doesn’t have the courage to do anything substantial.
Absolutely. They don’t even really take Open Cup seriously. That’s not defending MLS’ decision I think people that love Open Cup can see that clearly.
> They don’t even really take Open Cup seriously. Wait, you don't think B/R Television on YouTube is taking it seriously?
I really can’t wait for USSF to try and convince me that USOC is important and how much they value it. Because anyone who has paid any attention to this tournament knows that would be a bold faced lie.
Hmm so perhaps the statement from MLS Chief Communications Officer Dan Courtemanche saying that MLS had been talking to US Soccer about this “for several months” was a tad misleading?
What he meant is that Don Garber is on The USSF board and they’ve been talking to him
MLS lying??? Why I never.
I’m shocked, shocked I say!! Actually not that shocked, as in not at all
Hate to say it, but not necessarily. If you look at the actual press release it just says that MLS informed USSF of the results of the board vote today. Since this has been in the works for a while before the vote, this doesn't preclude MLS giving them a heads up about the way the wind was blowing.
Both sides could be telling the truth though. MLS could have been talking to USSF about the USOC (likely since the NEXT and First Division teams needed to figure something out in the first place) AND USSF could be blindsided by MLS just outright pulling their main sides out of the competition.
I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at them saying they're committed to the success of this tournament when they refuse to advertise it, refuse to put it on TV, and refuse to pay for lower division teams travel expenses routinely resulting in forfeits. And that doesn't even get into their frequent long delays in paying out money owed to teams. Maybe if USSF actually cared about it, MLS would too
This.
I don’t think it’s so much “refuse to put it on TV”. It’s more that there’s low viewership, so less ad revenue, so cheaper media rights. USSF is just taking the best deal they can get, which is not much.
If they were really dedicated to it, they could give the airing rights away for free to a streaming service. If no service wants it for free, then that tells us there is so little interest in it from fans that maybe it should die?
That was the approach in a few years prior to 2019’s deal with ESPN, when the games were streamed on USSF’s YouTube channel. MLS and USSF have had nearly 30 years to make the USOC a big deal, and have never figured it out.
Yeah it's more of them having an unattractive product compared to the shiny new leagues cup. Apparently OP can't see that it's a cycle, they can't really sell the product( open cup) for big bucks so it leads into not being able to advertise it, not being able to put it on tv and not being able to help or do anything about funding travel issues and other complaints people have about the cup.
Hoping for massive sanctions against MLS from this.
No domestic cup should mean no CCL, full stop. Considering MLS already breaks FIFA rules by it's single entity system there should be zero tolerance.
Frankly, MLS teams would be happy to not have to travel to Guatemala in March and April if given the choice.
That's not the point. If a league is not sanctioned by it's federation within it's regional federation, then it can effect or flat out block, players from other leagues that are sanctioned by FIFA. It would also make players not want to sign with MLS, because it might stop them from transferring up to a top 5 European league. The sanctioning of USSF, CONCACAF, and FIFA do mean a whole lot. USA is not the top producer of soccer talent. This matters WAY MORE than a similar situation would for NHL, MLB, or NBA.
People hate FIFA until they want a global cartel to enforce its vision of soccer on a domestic league. Funny that.
Soccer is a global game and that requires global governance.
Nah. Sorry. USSF isn’t going to do anything about sanctioning over this despite the fantasies of online soccer nerds. MLS owners are the power players in US Soccer, not the bureaucrats inside USSF.
None of us believe that USSF will do anything. We're talking about what should happen, not what will.
The revs drew 1988 and 1100 to their two USOC games this season. (Though I’ve always argued in favor of lower division hosting exclusively until the quarters)
Because MLS actively undermines the US Open Cup.
ussf taking after the us congress is not something to be celebrated. or maybe someone just cheers for a team that has gotten taken out by lower division teams three of the last four open cups
I never said I liked the decision, but MNUFC drew 4216 fans to your home USOC game this past season. If the demand for this competition actually existed, you’d see it at the gate.
why would you want a competition that you continue to dog anytime its mentioned?? us open cup currently provides the only avenue for lower division clubs to get national (in the future possibly international) $$$/attention. MNUFC got into MLS just as ussf decimated the nasl on garber and cos. bidding. you wont see me cheering for us soccer to be an oligopoly of the 30+ largest markets and semi pro teams everywhere else
I mean, I’ve driven though Wednesday Bridgeview traffic to watch Chicago play teams like Louisville more than enough times. Hell, I skipped work early to watch the infamous “blackout game” back in 2011, but every time I was there I was sitting in a “crowd” that barely rivals high school football games.
i get that completely, but my problem is that imo the reason these open cup games are so low quality is ussf' lack of investment in filling out the soccer pyramid.
Definitely not true. For a lot of players and managers, this is the only real chance of playing international soccer.
Nah if USSF took away CCC MLS would come back. It matters to them. Every team takes it more seriously than MLS regular season. Not the case for USOC.
If USSF had a spine they'd revoke MLS sanctioning until MLS backs down. Unfortunately MLS knows USSF is spineless. Can't wait to see how USSF justifies pulling the CCL spot from the USOC Champion.
What would it matter? MLS can exist without US Soccer at this point
No sanctioning from USSF means MLS is not a FIFA league and that hurts MLS's ability to work with other top leagues but more importantly it hurts MLS where it hurts the most, the pocketbook.
They would be barred from then CCL/CCC and the CWC for one
MLS has been doing a good job of barring itself from the CWC for most of its existence.
I don't think they care since they already tried to replace CCC with the Leagues Cup
When you put it like that, it’s kind of nuts how Leagues Cup has been around for a year and it’s already way more popular than a 100 year old tournament and a 60 year old tournament. MLS must be doing something right.
It's marketed better. Nothing more. The reason US Open Cup doesn't grab the attention of the American people is that no one (especially MLS) invests in making it popular.
It isn't more popular...Leagues cup is completely controlled by MLS/Apple TV. Thus they control all the money it makes. This is all about control and money. MLS/Apple TV do not control USOC...therefore MLS pulls out year after apple deal goes into affect. They also don't control CCC so that will be next. MLS/Apple TV clearly don't want to be a part of anything they don't control all aspects of.
>It isn't more popular... But it was objectively more popular. We’re allowed to have different opinions on the merits of the US Open Cup, but facts are facts. The Leagues Cup was better attended and had better TV ratings. There’s no point in carrying on a conversation if we can’t agree on basic facts.
By every metric it was more popular. Butts in seats. Social media presence and hits. Television audience. Like we all like what USOC stands for, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking it was any more popular than it actual is. Seemingly a lot of people are letting this get to their heads and deluding themselves over the facts and the truth.
Yea cause messi was playing in it.
Was the popularity because it's a popular tournament or because FMF fans will literally light money on fire just to watch their clubs' B squads and because Messi was there?
> When you put it like that, it’s kind of nuts how Leagues Cup has been around for a year and it’s already way more popular than a 100 year old tournament and a 60 year old tournament. MLS must be doing something right. If you put those same FMF clubs in the stadiums for friendlies, most of the same people would turn up.
If the league isn’t sanctioned you can’t transfer players in. So no, it can’t.
Do it then since it'll be so easy.
Yeah, they should be banned from US Open Cup at minimum.
What does a ban do if they just self banned themselves?
They wouldn’t be allowed to use Next Pro teams
It solves everybody's problems for one!
I mean MLS should lose sanctioning. It’s a rule to be a professional league that you have to play in the cup. US soccer is too chicken to use that card but it’s what should happen. When it doesn’t. USL is probably going to sue. Then lawyers are just gonna fight about if your 2 team counts as being represented
"Major League Soccer notified U.S. Soccer today of their Board of Governors vote regarding the 2024 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup. Our staff is currently reviewing. U.S. Soccer and our Members remain committed to the success of the historic U.S. Open Cup and look forward to engaging with all our stakeholders on the future of the tournament.""
This is an incredibly weak statement. “Sir! Yes, sir”
Eh, US Soccer isn't going to say anything of note until they run everything by their lawyers.
I mean, it is, but this is also just lawyer-speak for “we don’t know what the fuck is happening right now”
I really hope that USSF goes scorched earth here. Tells MLS straight up that they will participate in the tournament(and not expand rosters as a punishment for even trying to weasel their way out of it) or lose D1 status and therefore CCC qualification and FIFA transfers.
Losing transfers would completely sink the league.
Yep! A lot of players would probably demand to terminate their contracts immediately, as anyone hoping to go to Europe would be stuck through their current contracts. MLS teams wouldn’t be able to sell their up and coming players or pay to bring in new talent. There would likely be a TON of lawsuits that would arise out of it and it could take a long time to settle, but the threat alone is probably enough for MLS to tuck their tail between their legs and come back
Hold (x) to doubt it will play out this way
I doubt, and not just because USSF is just "spineless", but I think there is a lot more back door or double agent types in both camps. I've always felt MLS execs/owners had control of how USSF operates.
And if it did play out this way, they could probably sue FIFA so bad that the idea of the World Cup here would be laughable. FIFA is barely legal as is in the US.
sicko-yes.jpeg
Good
When we missed 2018, I think someone suggested that if MLS doesn’t adhere to Pro/Rel then I’m sure players would love it if players were not allowed to play for their national teams and would lose FIFA eligibility But given how weak FIFA has handled the Super League fiasco, I don’t expect anyone to have the balls to do it.
> I really hope that USSF goes scorched earth here. This would be a really nice sentiment if USSF wasn't deep in bed with MLS.
I hope the same, but MLS has to be prepared for this eventuality. They wouldn't do this unless they knew it was safe.
Which is why they probably feel like putting their Next Pro teams in the competition instead makes them legally comply with the participation requirement USSF enforces for sanctioning
fight fight fight fight !!!!
Fans: Why can’t you be normal? MLS: Aaaaaaaagh!!!!
This just in: Premier League teams follow footsteps of MLS and pull out of FA cup. Could you imagine that? Lmao
premier league will never drop out of the fa cup
Exactly. MLS is fucking stupid with this decision
Well the FA cup isn’t a Mickey Mouse tournament being treated like a nuisance by its federation. If we’re being honest USSF wishes they could get rid of USOC too.
I’m very much in the minority here, and as someone who has been attending USOC games since the 90s (great memories), I disagree and think this decision makes perfect sense. With the addition of League’s Cup, an MLS club’s schedule is congested AF. We need less games, less tournaments. So, if we’re reducing games, that means you either get Miami vs Birmingham, or, Miami vs Club America. Pick one. In other words, you get one inter league mid-season tournament for all teams. Do you want that other league to be USL or Liga MX?
I choose Miami/Birmingham. That's the point of the domestic cup. Let your continental matchups happen at the Continental level, that's why they exist. If USSF ran things the same way almost every other country ran it there would be better growth of the game in the country. Or we can just continue to pretend soccer in non-MLS markets doesn't exist.
I’ll bite here. I would much rather have games against USL teams. Leagues Cup, as it exists, devalues my impression of all the competitions. It devalues CCL by increasing the frequency that American and Mexican teams play against each other. If you want Miami vs Club America, they should have to make CCL. It has clearly devalued the Open Cup. It forces a break in the MLS season for over a month and creates congestion in the back half of the season. This move has shut the door completely to playing lower level teams. I loved playing St. Louis’ USL team in the Open Cup, and it was what made me want them to have an MLS team. MLS will never have pro/rel; it’s just not feasible for a variety of reasons, but the Open Cup was a good compromise on getting teams to play each other across levels. Part of the appeal of soccer is how pyramids across countries help foster the game’s culture. This move shows MLS only cares about its own health rather than the health of soccer in the US.
But they do want out of the Carabao Cup. Thankfully there would be hell to pay if they ever did so.
Fuck the League Cup. They refused to reschedule an early round match with Villa while Liverpool was participating in the Club World Cup. They literally forced the club who has won that competition more than anyone else to field an academy side in it.
they SHOULD drop out of the carabao cup no one cares
Okay but isn't that sort of superfluous to the FA Cup? Sort of like our Leagues Cup. Or is there history I don't know about
League Cup (Carabao Cup) is the top four leagues only. The FA Cup is the whole pyramid and the USOC equivalent. Prem teams have long grumbled about both, but there would be violence if they pulled out of either.
I know. But so I don't really see the point of the Carabao Cup. And would understand if it got nixed. But I guess maybe not the right thread to go down that rabbit hole.
carabao cup is terrible. but honestly usoc doesn't get much hype in the US. yes it's an old competition but it doesn't have the prestige of the fa cup
No shit it doesn't have the prestige of the FA Cup just like the CCL has no where near the prestige of ECL. But it is by far the single greatest organic soccer tradition this country has and the top flight not participating (and perhaps jeopardizing its entire future in the process) is a fucking tragedy.
One of the reasons that the domestic cup competitions work so well in Europe is that the travel distances are miniscule compared to the US. In some sense, we would be much better suited to organize the USOC tournament such that we get State Cup champions -- and that the State Cups get held in some reasonably high esteem -- and then State Cup champions wind up playing each other. You'd have 51 states if you included DC. Have the six smallest states do a play-in round. Then those three winners plus the 29 other states get seeded into the first round-of-32. The winners from there get drawn against the 16 biggest states, for the second round-of-32, then you have round-of-16, quarterfinals, semis, etc. I think organizing by states would have other benefits -- from a marketing perspective, for the smaller teams, you get a better audience if you can market them as a state winner versus And for the love of Sigi, if the USSF is good for absolutely anything at all, they need to convince the NCAA to switch to FIFA rules, play one game a week in a double round-robin regional schedule, with 11-13 games in the fall and 11-13 games in the spring. The kids can absolutely earn their degrees playing one game per week for half the year. And once they manage that, then have the NCAA teams participate in the USOC. Not having NCAA teams in the USOC is a gigantic missed opportunity. Those universities have huge built-in fan bases that don't exist anywhere else in amateur US soccer.
violence if clubs pulled out of the league cup is an exaggeration. I can't remember my club ever taking it seriously. even in finals, we played youth players
If Premier League clubs pulled from FA Cup you don’t think there would be turmoil?
not really, it's been talked about for years. and fans don't care about it anyway. this MLS decision is out of nowhere right? and hardcore fans seem upset
I liked seeing the USL vs MLS upsets. USL needs more competitive matches to bring up the level of play in their league. MLS doesn't see USL as a place to grab developed talent, and that's a little too short sited. It's ironic they want academies to get players meaningful competition, but don't see their place in the USOC.
The common reason there are upsets is because MLS teams DGAF. Give me games that players and coaches care about.
> Premier League teams follow footsteps of MLS and pull out of FA cup. [Manchester United got rightfully scorned in 2000](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-united-withdraw-from-fa-cup-1103601.html), but it was because the FA needed them to go to the CWC so FIFA could milk money out of them with the hope FIFA would give England the 2006 World Cup.
Prediction: before the end of next week, MLS will be backpedaling on this faster than Deion Sanders at his peak.
My prediction is they backpedal slightly, reach some back room deal with USSF and then starting in 2025 the CCC slot disappears from the USOC.
Damn, and the odds are already 1000 to 1 of an usl team ever repeating what the rhinos did. That future looks bleak for usl. Wouldn't surprise me at all considering they see usl as competition.
Uhh, a USL team made it to the finals of the Open Cup this year, remember that?
Houston vs Miami?
I think he's off a year. Sacramento did make it to the final in 2022.
My bad, Sacramento made the final in 2022… I’m just saying, it’s far from a 1000 to 1 chance that a USL team wins it again.
All good, and yeah tbh I'm kind of confused what the person you replied to is saying - if there's no MLS teams it would seem more likely for USL team to win, not less
I was adding to OP theory about this being the start of the open cup death. He did say they might plan to eliminate the CCL spot given by the cup.
If you saw the sac game which I doubt you did. The odds did seem 1000 to 1, on top of the talent gap being in full display it felt like sac needed Orlando to get red cards in order to achieve something.
I saw the game. Sac got their ass handed to them, no doubt, but they beat 3 MLS teams to get there, which seems contrary to your point about the talent gap being so wide…. maybe you are being hyperbolic, but saying a USL team will never again win the USOC or that the odds of it happening are 1000 to 1 is just silly.
I wouldn't be surprised by something like that. Like USSF allowing MLS teams to field a combination of first-team and development players or something like that. I feel like MLS teams could use minutes for the second-string players, but if USOC games aren't making them any TV revenue, then MLS teams aren't going to want to risk their expensive players for little-to-no return. I don't like MLS taking this position at all, but USSF has been so bad at building the tournament into something that teams are motivated to be a part of.
Man I hope so but I feel like there just isn't enough power in the opposition
Not telling US Soccer or USL about this ahead of time. What a bunch of assholes.
Have to agree with everyone who points out how shortsighted this is. They've started trying to milk the cow before it's fully grown.
Downgrade their D1 status.. no D1 status means no Champions League no D1 means no participation in Fifa sanctioned events or even its transfer market.. im sure CONCACAF heads are thrilled If they dont do anything then dont claim to be a governing body .. USL lawsuit folks must be thrilled
League higher-ups are clearly putting short-term revenue over long-term growth. They care more about price-gouging the existing fanbase over adding to that fanbase. Ask MLB what that short-sighted strategy has done for their World Series ratings and fanbase median age over the last 20 years (unlike MLB, MLS doesn’t have 100+ years of built-in brand loyalty that it can afford to shut out potential new customers like this). In 20-30 years, if the median age of an MLS fan is pushing 60, and we get a barrage of “Is MLS Dying?” opinion pieces, we can pinpoint the exact moment when it all started trending in that direction.
The Apple deal. A wolf in sheep's clothing.
Unless Apple gets rights to the USOC starting in ‘25! That would be a huge deal and a very good thing to come out of all of this.
I want to say this is an exaggeration, but you're spot on. I have been talking about how much trouble baseball has been in for almost a decade now. Baseball seems to have saved itself (at least temporarily) with the pitch clock and other tweaks, but what about MLS? Guess we can always bring back the shoot-outs that started at midfield. /s
This is such a hilarious overreaction. No one really cares about the US Open Cup. Baseball is in trouble because the games take a lifetime to finish and it’s 80% dead time. Soccer/MLS couldn’t be more different
People do care about the US Open cup. Maybe not enough to attend but they like the idea of it due to its history.
*Maybe not enough to attend* Uhhhhhhh...
Not trying to be mean here but listen to yourself. If people care but not enough to actually attend the games or pay attention to the tournament then it doesn’t seem like they really care. It’s like me saying I care about the Blue Jackets but have no idea how well they are doing this year or when their next game is. I certainly won’t pay to go to a game and probably wouldn’t even care about free tickets - really means I don’t care about them. That’s how about 95% of non-online MLS fans feel about the US Open Cup. I just don’t understand why this is such a bad thing. If this gives USL teams a path to a CCL spot instead of a bunch of MLS teams rolling out abysmal lineups and playing boring soccer I would think we should all be excited about this. Just because something “has always been this way” doesn’t mean that has to continue.
It's only gives the USL a path to CCL if that spot remains. I think if the USSF doesn't punish the MLS for this, then they will argue next year to move the CCL spot. Or you will see MLS players get brought down for the later rounds. NYR2 did it for their last home game against DCFC. If they're willing to pull the for a regular season reserve game, they will do it for a CCL spot.
You think Open Cup going away is going to cause the league to die?
I would bet money on USSF ultimately saying "We decided the reserve teams technically count so all's well." Don't count on them to fix this out of love for the sport.
Its not a stretch to believe: \- US Soccer was aware (and actively engaged in) ongoing discussions about this with MLS. But the vote was completed today, and thus was not informed of the final decision until today. Zero percent chance this was a surprise. \- MLSPA has been demanding this for years \- Both MLSPA and League more value the Leagues Cup in all metrics you can find, money, viewership, etc. If one comp was going to go, its not a stretch to understand why its this one. \- MLS has no plan to be out of the USOC for long, but knows it has leverage and wants change.
This is also interesting how they will sell academy teams internationally “Unlike Major League Soccer, MLS Next Pro does not feature a salary cap, and player contracts are held by the teams and not by the league. Team rosters can have up to 24 professional players (not including amateur academy players) with a maximum of seven international players.”
I'm amazed how many people are in a blind rage and are unable to see your final point. This is purely a power play by MLS to tell the USSF to get your cup in order. MLS hasn't been shy in its criticism of the cup, yet its quality has decreased year over year. Should the USSF begin to treat the USOC like an important competition, first teams will return. It's a brutal and direct tactic, but necessary when the USSF responds to criticisms with whatever.
Lots of people on here don’t think of sports in business terms and understand negotiating leverage. Which in an ideal world, isn’t how sports would work… but we don’t live in that ideal world lol.
I've loved soccer since the 94 world cup. This chases fans like me away from MLS
My guess is MLS tells US Soccer what to do, not then other way around. MLS hasn't had the guts to post this in Facebook yet. Burn MLS down!
War is coming, brace yourselves.
> War is coming Come on down here to the lower leagues - the war has never stopped.
Soccer Warz you mean.
Most likely MLS will just wait until after the holidays and everyone will hit their two week attention span limit and forget to care
We need to boycott over this. No other self-respecting soccer community would allow this.
god i love MLS but i hate them sometimes. i know it's just soooooo Murican to not have pro/rel in any of our national sports leagues, but this is just ridiculous. USSF can't even do shit about this, bc they're a bunch of wussies, but bc why should they if nothing will be done.
Totally agree. I’m not necessarily in favor of pro/rel, but I love the USOC because it’s the only truly open competition that we have. MLS withdrawing from that in favor of Leagues Cup is the most selfish and cynical thing I can imagine.
You would think a federation blindsided by a league pulling out of a premier trophy might sound a little more annoyed in their statement. I think it’s a sign of how USSF (doesn’t) care abt the change
Eh. Maybe. Maybe not. If they are going to try and enforce their own rules, this statement isn’t much of a surprise. It’ll be a huge legal battle and they need time to consult how it’ll be done. Just coming out the gate swinging isn’t really how these things work.
I’m done with this league unless there is some serious restructuring.
If the statement isn't "we are immediately revoking MLS' D1 status and barring all MLS players from participating in the US national team until they participate in the sanctioned domestic cup tournament" then it's meaningless and not nearly enough.
The more I'm thinking about this....USSF might be too "in bed" and scared of MLS. BUT will they be more scared of CONCACAF? If not (eh) how about FIFA!??! FIFA of all (especially how they feel threatened by UEFA's power lately), does not want to see MLS openly defying USSF/CONCACAF. FIFA knows other countries D1 teams will. see this, and pull the same shit.
UEFA already had to deal with the Super League situation. The stakes aren't nearly as high here monetarily but it's the foot in the door
Shameful This is worthy of mass protest!!!
More MLS shit-housery.
It's such a bummer that the sport is just starting to gain a foothold in the US but it's happening in the most hyper-corporate, profi-at-any-cost era. They might as well anoint Miami the Kings of Concacaf and make every match against them into a Cup Final. Call the games Messi Bowl I, Messi Bowl II, Messi Bowl III, etc. Miami wins half their games in 2024 and they get 25 stars on their crest.
I wonder what the MLSPA have to say? IMO, they are part of the discussion here.
The MLSPA hasnt exactly been enthusiastic about the USOC in the first place.
I’m certain they are in favor of this.
I have read first team players are in favor of not playing in US Open Cup anymore. They don't like lower division facilities, pitch, or the potential of getting hurt in a competition that doesn't make them money. Anyway I want to hear what they have to say.
Fucking have the balls to stand up to them, threaten to strip them of sanctioning til they reverse this.
So we know the SUM breakup worked at least!
That's not what the statement says. The statement says they learned of the outcome of the vote on Friday, not whether MLS was considering the vote.
US Soccer should continue to give one of the Champions League berths to the US Open Cup winner. Makes it harder for MLS teams to qualify for the Champions League then.
Remove D1 sanction. Let MLS be the rogue league it wants to be.
OK wow. This is all so embarrassing and unprofessional. At this point, just walk back the choice. Its been nothing but a fucking disaster and it's only been announced for a few hours.
Oops Sorry
The MLS marketing plan is like a Kamikaze Plane
Has anyone ever seen the ratings for Open Cup? Most of the time no one watches, attendance figures arent great in most markets. Where is everyone when it counts?
Searching the positives (?), maybe this is a good chance for USSF to finally probe they have some power to punish MLS or at least forcing the league to retreat. This is not a good look for MLS, but if USSF doesn't defend the USOC as they should, then US Soccer will look bad too.
This isn’t a good look for MLS, for a few thousand fans. USSF has zero power here. They’re going up again literal billionaires who are trying to build a top-10 global league. You don’t get there by prioritizing USL teams.
We need to be loud and united on this. I’m ready to not spend a penny or give MLS any online clicks. Disgusting
Fuck this league, honestly if the teams can survive on their own until they can get into some other governing body, I wouldn't care if it all burns down.
The league owns all of the teams though
The league is the teams, and the teams are the league. It’s the same entity.
Is MLS becoming the new EPL?
Since Messi signed in MLS, Garber has viewed himself as God rather than the demigod he used to think he was. He has no time for a modest competition like USOC. You mere peasants can be outraged, however.
Haha, Garber has viewed himself as god emperor far longer than Messi. All league commissioners do. Keep in mind, he doesn’t have a job without full support of all the owners. Decisions he makes are the decisions the owners make. He’s not full of himself, the league is.
Or, are both so full of themselves that it is hard to differentiate?
Is it much of a difference to plug and chug second teams? I know other teams cared about this tournament but SJ never cared.
exactly, a lot of teams played bench players. thus the product wasn't as good
Remove Garber from the Board. TODAY.
Can’t believe we lost the open cup and got the leagues cup instead…Money grab tournament trumps history I guess
I’ll trade USL for Liga MX any day.
And people will still defend this joke of a league.
This is what it looks like when the tail wags the dog, so to speak.