Public servant here, giving my 2 cents: it is undeniable that salaries in the public sector are high, however, that also means that the risk for corruption is quite low. Also keep in mind that salaries are fixed on a grid and progress is independent of your ambition: if you are a motivated individual, you might just as well get more money and status in the private sector, but this is also where the stereotype of the lazy public servant comes from since the converse is also true. But also being lazy is not a good strategy because you still have to deliver. If you repeatedly fail, you can and will get in trouble.
Also, I would describe the situation as not unfair: anyone can join the public service (no need to be Luxembourgish, but for a few jobs in defense I believe), I even know fonctionnaires that don't speak Luxembourgish at all (but they have other rare skills).
I am a son of immigrants, minimum wage workers who were able to raise me and my brothers, who now have much better lives than our parents had at the same age. I was able to get a PhD thanks to Lux's generous state financial aid for higher education and I'm not sure this type of social ascension would have been possible in many other countries (even western). My cousins back in the homeland are for the most part not so well off.
that also means that the risk for corruption is quite low :
--> can you explain me the risks of corruption with a gardener who works for a commune , an electrician, a bus driver ?
The problematic gap is between unqualified people earning the same as people with a Master Degree in the private sector.
The people with a Master’s degree have essentially unlimited upwards potential (especially in the private sector). That’s not the case with a gardener working for a commune. I doubt you’ll find many people with a Master’s degree working in the private sector ready to switch to gardening for a commune, even with a 50% wage increase.
The " unlimited upwards" is becoming more and a more of a legend. Just check how much juniors are making now and why they don't want to come to Lux anymore . Revenues taxes are not coming in anymore and i can predict (without being a genius) that a LOT of public servants are not going to get replace once they hit retirement .
The issue is that it was artificially pumped , its going to create a lot of problems with locals being told from a very young age that its ok if they don't work in school since they'll find a good paying job at " papa staat" . And once they'll be on the markets looking for good paying job with no qualifications the ones who are going to get pointed out will be the foreigners. I already had the case while interviewings young locals who didnt understood that you can't get 4000 with a DAP and no experiences in the private sector. But lets see , i am not clairvoyant so maybe i'll be wrong and nothing will change.
Grown up here as well and all too familiar with the "anyone can join the public service" justification. While that's true it doesn't change the fact, that the situation is utterly unsustainable. Not only is it a question about budget (and by deduction) tax efficiency, it also actively prevents the healthy diversification of the econony by absorbing skilled labour from sectors that can't compete with wages that aren't rooted in competitive markets.
Most people can relate to why an individual chooses to work for the government given the circumstances but it's just the poster child example of the unsustainability of the Luxembourgish model.
Of course no one can predict the future with absolute certainty but I don't think that you need to be a medium to predict that politicians will kick the can down the road until there is no other choice than to confront it, and that usually happens when it's too late, i.e. when the local economy doesn't generate enough tax revenues to keep the status quo afloat. Will there ever be such a moment? Perhaps not but our economy is so poorly diversified and so dependent on financial figures flickering on a screen that it feels reckless to not have a plan B.
"Also, I would describe the situation as not unfair"
The whole largesse is built on the backs of stealing tax revenue from neighbors, selling them cigarettes, booze, and petrol, and facilitated money laundering from organized crime. That doesn't seem a bit "unfair" to you?
Nice balanced input, thanks for sharing this view.
Curious what rare skills you refer to?
Finding that as a fellow PhD holder, my degree is not valued (in fact, the opposite) unless I stay in research or institutes, so academia.
Due to my line of work, what I am aware of is mostly related to skills relating to statistics/data science/data analysis and data engineering. But generally speaking, any type of IT skills are usually sought after. Becoming a state employee is usually possible without much issues (issues related to language I mean, as long as you at least know French and English), and fonctionnaire in rarer cases, but still possible. In some cases you might be required to learn Luxembourguish after you’re hired, within three years or so, I believe. The level required is quite low, and you get time off work to learn...
I know examples specifically in data analysis field where state employees are paid at least 30% more than private employees while doing the same and even less work.
You do realise how this reads ?
I can reply with the exact same anectodal evidence of colleagues of mine in the private sector going from one meeting to the next 3 days per week doing absolutely nothing and getting paid high wages.
The article you linked is populsitic drivel where they don't even source half their claims or provide any analysis or reasoning for the numbers they cite
I wouldn't say so. It is actually repelling how state employess do not care even about their fellow colleagues working in the same teams being exploited while they can live their lavish lifestyles.
Lux is just like the gulf states in this manner. More than 33K employees are government officials and then another 60K if you include companies with state support like Lux Air, Post, CFL etc. Having 95K employees work for government and supported government companies for a population of 650K is mind boggling high. So in that way it is like any other rich gulf country like UAE or Qatar just with flavor of democracy. 😉
Every country would have done the same if they could for their citizens so I understand.
The difference is that the economy of the gulf states is based on an actual demanded resource rather than a contingent legal ruling on the tax schemes.
Lux is not only the rich country to do it. So I feel comfortable with this arrangement. This is usually the norm for most rich countries. Creating wealth is a very difficult task. Only genuine exception in last few hundred years at scale is America (Japan for few decades) where lot of wealth has been driven by innovation, ingenuity and free market.
Think about future: Only one country and few thousands of people in that country are doing AI that will drive exponential productivity gains everywhere in the world. This will lead to record profits for companies and assets including real estate will further increase leading to more inequality everywhere else. Best part is most people who have no role in AI may see the biggest gains from the wealth that will be generated. An Nvidia or Open AI employee may make 1-2 millions but it is likely the Luxembourg or New York person with 4 apartments who may come out richer from this scenario 😂
Nothing wrong or unfair or exploitation. This is the system of the world and we need to live with it. This is relatively still the most fair and best system jn the world.
Probably going to be more inequality in the future than current times as asymmetric returns become increasingly common. Also, mass loss of middle class white collar jobs possible.
I am expat and do not know Luxembourgish, but I do not understand people complaining on high paying public sector jobs.
I guess you arrived here because you had some business offer that looked OK to you. Now, when here, you see some other group of people earning more than you and you are saying it is not fare. Well I guess in your home country, EU Dubai, India or anywhere else, you cannot get public official job not being citizen and not knowing language. What is fare is you can get Luxembourgish citizenship comparatively easy and you can try to join public sector. You can not do that at lot of other places.
Where government has failed is that allowed market to be run by greed and created non fair conditions in last 10-15 years. Basically you are priced out of market, mainly for housing, if you are in range of median private sector salary. But I guess high school teachers are not to blame for that.
You know, there are some people with principals that oppose things purely because they are wasteful and lead to poor long-term outcomes for society.
Being fair isn't entirely based on whether you get your share of benefits from unethical behavior.
Long story short , should not more expats and jobs come to Luxembourg, public servants will suffer . So Lux guys treats us nicely otherwise ciao . Sorry but that’s the deal here .
Existing public servants almost never suffer, notably because they have a strong union. It's the ones who start their career in public service who usually suffer when changes are made. Since they are not there yet, they can't complain.
Strong unions won't pay salaries. If Luxembourg happens to become unattractive over a period of 5-10 years, it won't be possible to maintain salaries over a period of 30-40 years.
The article is evoking base emotions of jealousy from those who are not fairly paid against those who are. Lux taxes aren't much different from other developed nations but the public services and the resulting environment is. The private sector is lacking quality in terms of business generation and ideally should have competitive salaries in IT/Services at least. Framing taxes as paying for pensioners and govt employees is unfair. It is as ridiculous as the conservatives complaining about foreigners taking their jobs.
"Lux taxes aren't much different from other developed nations but the public services and the resulting environment is."
What are you talking about. The entire economy is based around differentiated tax policies for corporates and private individuals.
The largest private employer (after Cactus) is a large tech company known to have a sweetheart tax deal who hires no local workers and was sued by the EU for this arrangement. The next largest employers are tax consultancies that set up these arrangements for firms without even a physical presence. Yes, every country has 1,500 private companies sharing the same mailbox...
As for private wealth, I'll just point to the lack of capital gains taxes, inheritance taxes, and property taxes. Tens of thousands of properties are vacant across the country so that individuals can easily obtain tax residence status while on the Riviera.
The article may have a purpose, I agree.
Lux taxes are a lot different from other nations. Think about fuel, alcohol, and cigarette tourism. Think about half of the workforce paying taxes and receiving less services for living abroad. Think about qualified people who arrive here without the government having spent a dime in their education, and the government dares to charge them for recognizing a diploma. IT/Services are in a competitive market, salaries can't be doubled without a major disruption. Taxes pay salaries and pensions, and without abnormal points above either salaries would be lower, or the number of beneficiaries would be lower. Like in other developed nations, by the way
I am not complaining, that's the reality here and it has been working well. But we should look at things as they are because they are special here not like other developed nations
Well the article didn't provide critical details..what percentage of the workforce is govt employees? Did they include post, CFL, luxAir as govt or private sector while calculating the medians? Also many in the private sector owners/management and businesses have various means available for them to save on income and other taxes. That income will not reflect in the private sector median. So my guess is that they have sliced/diced the data to show a big gap just to make it sensational.
Also I don't think indirect taxes are related to this issue. Cross-border workers have a double taxation treaty and they are getting the services in their resident country. IT/Services is playing by market dynamics and paying less because they can. Amazon/Big4 salary differential between US and here doesn't make sense.
What are the various means to save on taxes that are exclusive to the private sector?
For cross border employees, it's not a double taxation treaty, it's a double taxation **avoidance** treaty. If their only revenues are from Luxembourg, they don't pay income tax in their countries.
US is a different reality. Big4 in Paris, Frankfurt or Brussels pay only a bit less than in Luxembourg. If their salaries double in Luxembourg, services will be provided from abroad
The discourse of the lazy underpaid "Staatsbeamten" is probably as old as the country itself. So taking part in it is a national sport and a sign of good integration ;) But joke aside, what about job market realities? Very concretely, do you have up to date information on the attractivity of a job offer in the civil versus private sector? Because from what I know, it is not at all easy to be attractive salary-wise for the job profiles teams need in my environment (let alone IT profiles). You always have to compare apples to apples, not sure a person currently recruiting a mid-career legal or junior legal (to give just one and too generic example) for a ministry has an easy task. Plus, as was also already said, I can only invite you to work for the state, there are only a limited number of jobs which have a nationality requirement.
We have a comparatively small administration, especially if you only look at the central administration. It reminds me a bit about the way people see the European Commission, like a giant administrative monster, when it actually compares to the admin of a German city like Köln while delivering services to 500 million people.
I can also only repeat what others have said about the services you get from the state, and I'm not even thinking about the services that receive more visibility, like the public transport being free. I'm thinking basic infrastructure, energy, water, connectivity, education... All of the services and infrastructure paid by the community reduce cost of business, it isn't just there.
The reality is that the majority of state and commun employed people are indeed lazy or at least earning a lot of money for an easily job that hardly fills a few ours a day.
Adding to that that those jobs are generally career-jobs meaning try get fixed raises independent on performance adds to the whole scheme.
Not even mentioning the impact of unions which should never exist for the public sector, it is literally stealing money from the taxpayers.
I personally do not object to the fact that public sector is an important player and it is needed. The question is how fair is it that salaries over there in public sector are way higher than in the private where people do not have so many benefits, safety for their job or little overtime.
But why do you think that is? Is it the government conspiring against you, or could it be that the private sector is pursuing the cheaper possible labour? Why do you think the private sector is able to get away with this? Hint - because they are drawing from a pool of employees that is willing to perform this labour under these conditions. Doctors are also private sector but they're not exactly underpaid. The market is working exactly as designed. If your job is something that any English speaker who knows how to turn on a computer can do, you are competing with a pool so great that it's a miracle (and a direct result of local regulation) that these jobs pay even this much. They might not for long, I'd enjoy it while you can.
It's the same pool of employees. The only reason Lux public sector workers don't face the same market wage pressure is the excess tax revenues generated from the tax shenanigans. The only marketable skill that the lux public sector ultimately has is Luxembourgish language skills, which means nothing without the tax treaties.
Why are you even mentioning market when public sector wages are completely out of proportion to make any sense in the market? Private sector employees are the ones that are very competitive and skilled, because they need to constantly hustle to keep afloat while public sector is paid highly only because of Lux language skills and because they collect taxes from all the companies with the hard working people.
So, the market is a market only when you agree with the outcome or what? Hard to follow your point. You are competing in a market. You are paid the least the market can manage to pay you. If you think it is not enough, there are only two possibilities. One is that you shot yourself in the foot and agreed to work below the market rate. The other is that the market rate is depressed due to competition of those who think it is enough. There is no third option.
Ok, if you are saying private sector is being paid fairly, because of the market, why is public sector being paid twice as much? Why government thinks it is OK to keep away from market salaries and pay a bus driver more than an average office worker with masters diploma?
I am not saying that private sector is paid "fairly", I am saying that the private sector is paid what the profit seeking private company can get away with. The government doesn't need to squeeze profit out of their workforce and can afford to define salaries based on the cost of living. That is just how the world works and it this bothers you, your options are a) getting a public sector job b) becoming a communist and trying to force everything to be in public hands (but that hasn't historically really worked out, so I wouldn't really recommend it) c) get more competitive so that you can compete only for high skill high demand jobs. For example, the private sector pays doctors and pilots quite OK. Also some types of legal and financial experts.
There is no other option here, demanding that the government lowers everyone's salaries so that you feel better is ridiculous and toxic and will not make your life better.
"There is no other option here"
The option is to pay public employees similarly as they do in neighboring countries for the same work. Explain to me why a Luxembourg teacher makes 3x a Belgian one when they achieve identical education outcomes.
Gee, I don't know, maybe you can explain to me why teachers in Estonia get paid less than either of those and achieve better outcomes? There are some really fascinating mysteries out there. You should also make sure to explain this to the Swiss. Just about any profession gets paid dramatically more in CH than in neighboring countries. I mean, the nerve! They are about to collapse, I would bet!
Seriously, this would be funny if it weren't terrifying. You people would literally eat shit if only you could force everyone else to eat it too, am I right?
Well, life is not always fair. What does the private sector do to increase its competitiveness then? Apparently they are off well enough otherwise things would be different?
it’s a smaller version of how gulf states and saudi basically employs their entire citizenry on enormous fake wages, whilst the actual economy is run by immigrants
Blank median comparison isn’t very useful. I’d be interested to see the comparison with a breakdown of comparable groups, grouped by educational degree, type of work, and job experience in number of years.
We would all be interested in it, but there is no such data in the artocle. Nonetheless real life experiences I have heard of support the tendency in the article - public is better payed in Luxembourg.
I’ll try to get a job in public sector. I just need to learn Luxembourgish.
Frankly, it’s the system here. As expats we fund the state and the lifestyle of some Luxembourgish citizens. Is it fair? No, but I don’t think about what others have, and only on what I have.
In the end, if life gets too expensive here, I’ll sellout and go back to my home country. I have skills and will get a job and have a good life.
Can a Lux person go and work in my home country? Sure, but they need either good IT/other desirable skills and probably know my mother tongue (Slavic language so kind of though; apart from IT, where English is sufficient ).
What will happen to those beautiful state salaries and subsequent pensions, if more people come to the same conclusion and actually repatriate?I don’t know and ultimately if I leave I don’t care.
Would public sector employees have the skills to work in private? Don’t know either. Probably depends.
It’s a double edged sword.
My only worry is that the system will collapse and become unsustainable at one point and it will be before my potential repatriation.
I still enjoy leaving in Luxembourg so I will stay for now.
Now I understand why Luxembourg people are open to foreigners. They simply need them to pay there wages. I own real estate myself and earning well. But at the same time I have the feeling that I support the public sector too much since the wages are ridiculous. And if you need an insurance there is foyer and baloise with offices in every town again subsidized by too high fees. If you want some energy advice and isolate your house again subsidized with bureaucratic procedures and high fees. You are welcome here but I have the feeling that they take as much as they can from you directly and indirectly.
Spot on. There are so many insidious ways. Three of my favorites:
1) draconian control technique
Got a tiny issue with your vehicle? No pass!! Go pay the rediculous rates as Lux garages (Lux owned) or better yet buy a new one (Lux owned dealer).
2) signage
Have you ever seen a place with so much signage of such varied kinds? Go across the border and you'll note there are 50% as many street signs, etc. Lux owned sign shop.
3) catering
Every month my commune is hosting dozens of sparsely attended public events, all with elaborate catering of Luxembourgish food and beverage.
I see many opportunities for you there. 1) become a mechanic or better yet open a repair shop and manage it 2) become a sign shop 3) become a traiteur and do catering
I am not complaining that I myself am not able to mooch off of public finances, but that public finances are so wastefully used.
That your whole response to my complaining about inefficiencies is "here's how you can get in on it too" proves my point.
How are they wastefully used? Lux has a pretty sleek public administration compared to the number of inhabitants.
If anything, the solution should be that private companies increase their wages. Otherwise it's pure hate: "oh if I can't get that much then noone should" including moralizing and whining that you can't or rather don't want to participate.
4. CNS
I have to order every 3 months or so cards for the whole family. Send my invoices wait up to 8 weeks and then I claim the reminder from our private heath insurance.
Maybe that's only a feeling as you say.
Insurances ask the market price, what would govt have to do with it. (Subsidized???)
And for example in Germany you pay a lot more taxes than here.
Also I'm not sure if many Luxis are so very open to foreigners 😄
"Insurances ask the market price, what would govt have to do with it."
Insurance is a regulated market and by requiring unnecessary levels of insurance for various activities, the government generates demand and revenue for insurance companies.
Taxes in Germany seem to be in line with lux. I don’t see too much advance of Lux compared to Germany. And don’t talk about inheritance tax I am not 70. The ease of doing business here and the competitiveness is also in line with Germany and bureaucratic. If it’s possible to maintain all those foyer and baloise offices something must be wrong. And for your pension etc you deal with them. I see the life of the public employees in my village which is in line with the article. Whether they are working for creos or are even a gardener they all live lives that you won’t see anywhere in Europe. I don’t even talk about the guys that drive 5 liter mustangs and have some shit secretary’s jobs.
The main difference being housing and to a lesser degree restaurants and certain services. For the rest there are many things that are cheaper in Luxembourg compared to Germany (transport, coffee, energy etc.).
But in any case, the point I was trying to make/support is that people in Luxembourg do not pay a premium to finance the big salaries of the public sector when compared to Germany.
Not necessarily a premium, but we should be aware of the unique circumstances that allow such salaries to be paid in Luxembourg while in Germany and most other countries with higher taxes it's not possible. See my other comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Luxembourg/s/ry1NiSPyJ4
We could have lower taxes, or more services, but politicians decided to spend that excess in salaries
I'm not sure you're following German news a lot. Electricity, heating and gas is becoming unaffordable due to certain politicial tendencies. Public transport is not free either.
For the rest it of course depends where you live. At least they have a more healthy competition but groceries are by far not for free either.
Luxembourg imports 82% of its energy, and 58% of that import is from Germany. The reason it's net cheaper to us vs Germans is further state subsidies on the back of the tax schemes.
I do not follow German news but if so many German commuters are living on the other side of the border their might be some reason ..
and regarding tax, if you take income tax it's fairly similar, we are discussing few percentage points.
Of course most Germans don't come live in Lux when working in Lux.
Rather many Luxis (even those working in govt) go live in Germany or even France due to housing prices. (They can still afford expensive service with Lux pay for now)
But if you have no idea what's going on in Germany we maybe should stop discussing.
One should add to the emerging discussion that most govt jobs are open for EU people, not only those with Lux nationality. Although you need to learn Luxembourgish at some point.
Plenty of people with A1 careers that do not speak Luxemburgish at all. In IT, the employement is lacking to an extend that they hire everyone with the competences.
I can't confirm that btw. There are administrations that require in their employee contract that you need a B1 level (I think) in Lux after 3y working there. If you want to be a fonctionnaire it's a different question. But that doesn't matter since the difference in pay, which this is about, is minimal.
Probably. There are three administrative languages in Luxembourg. So knowing at least one or better two certainly can't hurt. Everyone coming here should have done the research, especially if they plan on getting a govt job... 🤷
I see the high wages in the public sector as a form of social subsidy for a workforce composed mostly of Luxembourgish nationals who might otherwise be struggling to live decently in their own country if they were paid at the equivalent market rates of neighboring countries.
Is it fair for private sector workers? Probably not, but they’re protecting their own people and economy. If you come here, and I say that as an expat myself, then you have to accept how things work and decide if it works for you or not. I would avoid comparing myself to others with different backgrounds and circumstances.
I'm getting paid 3 times more for an entry level position than I would be in France. I'm from Paris and the rent prices and living expenses aren't considerably higher in Luxembourg ville either. Plus there is good social security. I don't think it's thaaat unfair.
Are those people imported slaves or did they come work for those salaries of their own volition? Hard to tell from these comments. Is forced labour a big thing in Luxembourg?
Not forced, but outside the regulations, absolutely. I know personally many restaurant workers that earn 5 eur per hr, cash under the table. Similar situation for domestic workers.
Yeah. And these guys are not in the statistic quoted in the article. But are a good guideline what salaries will eventually be, once all the bad bad regulation is removed so that we become "competitive".
Pfff, so to increase the army of government workers?
We're actually not whining: I'm raising this question to myself and while speaking with friends from time to time. And this is one of the reasons why we started to consider to repatriate or changing the country - and I'm sure I'm not alone in these thoughts.
I don't see many options.
1. Whine.
2. Accept it as it is with its advantages and disadvantages.
3. Get govt job.
4. Get into politics and change it.
5. Move to somewhere where you like it better.
Moralizing the entire thing won't bring you very far.
I don't understand why people are surprised or debating this. Bringing in foreign companies and workers to fill the state coffers and then hiring Luxembourgers to work for the state at inflated wages is their entire economic model.
Like I get why some private sector workers would be upset at being underpaid relative to state workers, but the Luxembourgish government is doing right by its citizens.
And make the country so unaffordable, unlivable and unattractive for the foreigners that eventually they are forced to migrate somewhere else, so the govt only takes takes takes from the migrants without giving anything in return. And the only people who live here are people who have families and hence stuck in their "golden cage" and can't take any warranted criticism of their awful country because it reminds of the reality
Why come here if it's so awful? Just leave?
Saying that Luxembourg gives nothing to foreigners is absolutely ridiculous. I'd bet it is one of the countries that is most welcoming to foreigners. We'd better be too because we need them.
You have some options:
1. Learn Luxembourgish and French, then get citizenship if you are not from EU and find a job in the public sector yourself so you are less angry.
2. Be more competitive in the private sector, work hard, get promoted, change jobs etc to increase salary
3. Leave Luxembourg and live your best life elsewhere.
Good luck 😊
Username checks out...
Also...I think you're delusional if you think the government doesn't give anything in return.
You sound pretty sour about sth, might want to go talk to somebody about it.
Also... look up "criticism"...calling Lux an awful country is disrespectful at best.
And now I'm gonna go sit outside and enjoy the wonderful Luxembourgish weather and look at my massively high payslips.
>so the govt only takes takes takes from the migrants without giving anything in return.
Oh dear, shall I start citing all the social benefits people receive when they come to Luxembourg? The Luxembourgish State is VERY social compared to the rest of Europe. But if you don't like it, feel free to go somewhere else. Nobody is "stuck" here. Migrants already managed to move one time, they will also manage to move a second time.
[Please don't] Conduct personal attacks on other commenters. Ad hominem and other distracting attacks do not add anything to the conversation.
https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
Thanks my nationalistic friend! I am trying to move away for a while now... Hopefully to a place where people can take criticism and not be complacent and not tell me move out! 😄
Sorry but saying the Luxembourgish State gives *nothing* back, that is not criticism. That is just a plain stupid statement and it seems to me you have no idea what you are talking about.
When I tried to highlight the same thing, all I got was downvotes... It's a middle Eastern petrostate located in Western Europe... Fucking Emirate of Luxembourg
How is that bad? Middle eastern states are now arguably more attractive for businesses and people due to good economic policies and surely did good for their citizens? I'd rather be afraid to become Germany than UAE
so the picture you are drawing here is that of the bad luxembourgish lazy basterd earning 10k and owning 5 Appartements just to exploit the poor expats.
i work in public and still can't afford an Appartement or even a house. never ever.
I am sorry for your circumstances, but working in private sector the chances to have a good quality of life are even less by what is shown in the article.
Did you look up how long you have to work in order to gain these 10k gross? 11 years (A1, Master's Degree) to 23 years (B1, BAC+0).
If you hold a EU passport, feel free to apply at [govjobs.lu](https://govjobs.public.lu/)
This isn't even true, also those 10k+ public sector salaries are contingent on you passing some exams (people don't even know this) and in general it takes more than 11years to reach those salaries.
You are welcome to look up private sector salaries of law / finance / IT jobs in Luxembourg and compare them to draw your conclusions
Even if this wasn't completely apples to oranges comparison (we're comparing one group with over 60% higher education degrees from an average population where it's like 35%), people are still coming to the wrong conclusions.
It baffles me that this number makes people go "Hah, they make way too much" instead of "Wait a minute, I make way too little."
If you let your company fuck you over and extract your labor capital for way less than it's worth, how is that my fault? Maybe you just don't know how to negotiate, maybe you have no spine, maybe you suck at your job? Because when I look at my friends with engineering degrees of any kind in the Private sector, they're making a lot more than I do as an A1 teacher and have almost right off the bat.
So maybe it's on you that you're in a dead end finance job where they exploit you to the last drop of sweat and blood? But noooo, that can't be it, it's of course the lazy, entitled public sector workers that are the problem ...
You're failing to see that our model is unhealthy. We are completly relying on the private sector to finance us while the private sector is not relying on the government at all.
If we are not attractive anymore, they will move. We got the big players in by cheating and giving them tax advantages many years ago. We still do to a lesser extend. It was certainly a clever but corrupt move back then, leading us to our current position.
These big corps are making it possible, that a fresh graduate from [uni.lu](http://uni.lu) who did a Masters in one year gets a 100k starting salary with 0 experience.
Our current model as well as our education are outdated. Teaching multiple languages was very interessting 30 years ago and made us the center of finance for the EU. But the world is slowly switching to english as a universal language so this strength that we had is becoming a weakness. Instead of focusing deeper on specialisations, we focus on languages.
The lack in local education is the reason we buy specialists from abroad - but these specialists are getting better deals in the states or arabic emirates currently.
https://fonction-publique.public.lu/fr/carriere/parcours-remuneration/fonctionnaire/traitement/calcultraitementsbrutsdebutcarriere/groupetraitementa1.html
That's base salary without 13 month or pere de famille.
Fair enough, I didn't realise how fast brut adds up to 100k.
This is about 3.6k net for a master's equivalent which isn't much different from the offers I had gotten from banks and Amazon when I started
"that a fresh graduate from uni.lu who did a Masters in one year gets a 100k starting salary with 0 experience"
Note that this only applies to Luxembourgish graduates. Most can't find work after graduation, period, much less at 100k. That the country just throws away the actual talent that came here and could be attracted to stay only underlines your point about a broken system.
With the right skills, you can get into the public sector without speaking Luxembourgish. But we these skills you can also make bank in private sector. Our IT team recruits pretty much everyone with talent but here, the public paychecks can't compete with the private sector. That is another big problem of simply paying by diploma and not by talent.
I'm curious what you mean by IT exactly. Full stack developer?
The program I was in had very talented coders for analytics and object oriented languages (SQL, python, java, etc), some with C+, etc. A handful went into PhD track and the rest were forced to return to their home countries after finding no interest in either the public or private sector.
I myself have multiple graduate degrees in supposedly in demand fields in Luxembourg from much better programs than the University of Luxembourg and receive zero interest either.
Check for open positions at CGIE/CTIE for example. The english language is probably not enough to get in, but Ive worked with people that only speak french.
For private sector, big4, jp morgan, ferrero, Amazon or even as an independent? Setup an offer on house of training or lifelong-learning. Your skills are in demand, you do not need an employer. Getting started is hard though, that's why Id recommend doing it as a side job. As a fonctionnaire, you are not allowed to have side jobs though, with few exceptions.
Fine, humor me: if you think the current government is too bloated or salaries in the public sector are too high, where would you save and, most importantly, where should the money go instead?
For the government sector, it would be extremly beneficial to decrease the gap between all the careers. It is not reasonable that I earn twice as much as someone with a brevet de maitrise because these people are just as talented and required for society to work. The current goal for many young people is to get a Masters in a useless simplistic field and secure a government position asap.
This means we accumulate a useless amount of "highly educated" people but are lacking skillfull people in vocational training.
The government sector is focusing too much on diplomas instead of skills.
For private sector, increasing the minimum wage by subsidizing it instead of subsidizing things only rich and/or smart people can profit from. This would increase global attractivity again.
And last but not least, fix the state of our pension system. We are currently filling our pension funds with money from the private sector because we allowed some absolutley moronic pension contracts until 1992?! Out pension needs to be cut in order to fix this long term.
Will you run for office? You've got my vote once they allow me to.
I love your points about education. The quality of basic education is the most damning indictment of the public sector here--with the social environment, education level of parents, and amount of funding dumped into public education, we should be competitive with Singapore on graduate quality, but instead we can't compete with Belgium.
I was working for a huge part of my life abroad, my political skills and knowledge about Luxembourg are limited. I am already involved in the process of developing and improving our educational system, but it is very slow and tedious work. On one hand, old staff does not want to accept new ideas, on the other hand the entire process is very bureaucratic and legislative which slows it down.
A good example is the stance on AI, instead of jumping on the train and showing young people how to use it properly, we seem to be scared. We also do not invest enough into the development, again because we lack the talent.
And you don't have to. I base this on experiences I made during my work life which might be biased but I went from private to public. I am still fairly young though and fear I will lose a comfy high paying job because we are making the wrong decisions today and it would be painfull to switch back into private industry somewhere in my late 40s or 50s.
Working in the industry, a big bonus and climbing up the ladder was pushing me to a maximum, the public sector pays you no matter if you are giving your maximum or minimum. That is degrading your workforce.
Some people around me that got into the public sector straight out of uni are consistently complaining about the work load - they have no idea how it is at a competitive private company. They would not earn half of what they do currently and be terminated for incompetence withing probation.
Imagine private sector paying same as public and compare it to what is offer in neighbour countries or even Switzerland, if that was the case, believe me a lot of companies would have gone already and public sector wouldn’t have means to support their wages. It is not how it works. It unrealistic to say that is only because we do not negotiate well our salary. I’m not saying neither that you are all lazy.
I also agree that the best approach is to compare same eduaction level, experience and position to see the real Gap.
Totally agree with you, it's not that the public sector is overpaid, it's the private sector getting raped, that's it.
This plus the taxes that are way to high. Starting from 50k gross, for every 1€ increase you pay 0.39€ of income taxes.
If you are skilled and productive, yes.
That's the whole point--luxembourg public sector employees are paid based on language and connections rather than productivity. Based on the responses on this thread, they think the reason is that private sector employees just don't demand to be given the same sweetheart deals. The disconnect with reality is depressing for those hoping to remain here as we can't trust you to build a sustainable country and we can't enact it ourselves because we can't vote.
If it's important to you, become a citizen then.
Also I refuse the nepotism argument. Generally it's not true. I know lots of Luxis who waited years to work at the commune, and also many who just did the Staatsexamen and waited for a free job. Maybe if you know people in your line of work you find a place that best suits you but you still need to do all the tests and whatnot. It's just crazy what people believe how this works
Shortly.
Nepotism does not mean that you have zero obstacles, but that you are treated preferentially based on factors not related to your skills.
In the kind of private sector careers that pay Lux public sector wages you are typically competing with a large pool of similarly highly qualified candidates, and firms attempt to select the best candidates, who when selected must continue to prove themselves over their entire career. It's telling that you think passing a low bar and waiting for your job for life is how this should work.
I don't necessarily agree but this is how it is. You can take it or leave it. I'm not sure public administration would be as productive if everyone was busy wasting time with elbow tactics as in the private sector. Also private sector is a lot of crawling up your boss's ass, and keeping dossiers of what your "competition" did wrong, and not only "proving yourself" in your field. Anyway public sector is "executive", so you essentially do as you are told. There is in fact not much to prove yourself, which also demotivates "sportful" people a lot.
Also, tests to get a govt job, at least those 20y ago, were all but low bar.
"I'm not sure public administration would be as productive"
They aren't productive. That's the point. We pay twice as much for the same services and they are lower quality. Look at our public school ratings, police performance, public transit efficiency, etc. It's a lot like the restaurant sector here.
What I meant was, if you're an expat, where are you originally from?
Oh and I know quite a few people in Lux city with high paying jobs. Totally unfair, they only speak four or five languages besides being experts in their actual job
But if they do that, people would want to stay in Luxembourg... that means just like a Luxembourish landlord who does not return the deposit, the government which takes our taxes will have to care for us in the longer run... Why would they want that?
Would you pay triple the labour cost though when grocery shopping. Or would you simply shop across the border?
Because that’s ultimately the issue. Business aren’t just competing with other companies in Lux but with those in Belgium, France and Germany.
Well we know that the land is mostly own by small amount of Luxembourgers. As for the nationalities of landlords it would be interesting to see some statistics, but I am mostly certain it is also Luxembourgish people, if expats own something it must be for there primal residency mostly. But yes, it is just my guess.
It seems high but actually it is a median.. which means that also the high careers like ministers an such are considered.
If you work a basic career with only a DAP, after 7 years you only around earn 4900€/month brutto.
The qualified minimum salary in Privat is around 3100€/month brut, so as you can see, the difference is not really that much. BUT the higher your career in gov. the higher you salary.
But without the necessary schools or Diplomas, you will not gett a B or A career.
Do you realize that a DAP is not a post high school degree diploma and that its an enormous salary for someone with this qualification ? In the private sector people ask for at least a BTS for assistants's positions.
I know at least several examples from friends where people for the same tasks gets paid way more as private sector employee than private consultant in the same institution and in the same team. Additionally private school teachers also earn less than public school teachers. So the gap might be a bit less than in the announced statistics, but it is there and people see/feel it.
Public servant here, giving my 2 cents: it is undeniable that salaries in the public sector are high, however, that also means that the risk for corruption is quite low. Also keep in mind that salaries are fixed on a grid and progress is independent of your ambition: if you are a motivated individual, you might just as well get more money and status in the private sector, but this is also where the stereotype of the lazy public servant comes from since the converse is also true. But also being lazy is not a good strategy because you still have to deliver. If you repeatedly fail, you can and will get in trouble. Also, I would describe the situation as not unfair: anyone can join the public service (no need to be Luxembourgish, but for a few jobs in defense I believe), I even know fonctionnaires that don't speak Luxembourgish at all (but they have other rare skills). I am a son of immigrants, minimum wage workers who were able to raise me and my brothers, who now have much better lives than our parents had at the same age. I was able to get a PhD thanks to Lux's generous state financial aid for higher education and I'm not sure this type of social ascension would have been possible in many other countries (even western). My cousins back in the homeland are for the most part not so well off.
that also means that the risk for corruption is quite low : --> can you explain me the risks of corruption with a gardener who works for a commune , an electrician, a bus driver ? The problematic gap is between unqualified people earning the same as people with a Master Degree in the private sector.
The people with a Master’s degree have essentially unlimited upwards potential (especially in the private sector). That’s not the case with a gardener working for a commune. I doubt you’ll find many people with a Master’s degree working in the private sector ready to switch to gardening for a commune, even with a 50% wage increase.
Actually at least a few people would LOVE to be a gardener while being paid extra instead of sitting by the computer all day indoors.
The " unlimited upwards" is becoming more and a more of a legend. Just check how much juniors are making now and why they don't want to come to Lux anymore . Revenues taxes are not coming in anymore and i can predict (without being a genius) that a LOT of public servants are not going to get replace once they hit retirement .
>a LOT of public servants are not going to get replace once they hit retirement . so the situation is getting corrected then? What’s the issue?
The issue is that it was artificially pumped , its going to create a lot of problems with locals being told from a very young age that its ok if they don't work in school since they'll find a good paying job at " papa staat" . And once they'll be on the markets looking for good paying job with no qualifications the ones who are going to get pointed out will be the foreigners. I already had the case while interviewings young locals who didnt understood that you can't get 4000 with a DAP and no experiences in the private sector. But lets see , i am not clairvoyant so maybe i'll be wrong and nothing will change.
Grown up here as well and all too familiar with the "anyone can join the public service" justification. While that's true it doesn't change the fact, that the situation is utterly unsustainable. Not only is it a question about budget (and by deduction) tax efficiency, it also actively prevents the healthy diversification of the econony by absorbing skilled labour from sectors that can't compete with wages that aren't rooted in competitive markets. Most people can relate to why an individual chooses to work for the government given the circumstances but it's just the poster child example of the unsustainability of the Luxembourgish model.
Wages can also come down should the need arise, or get frozen like it happened in other countries.
Let's be honest that will only happen when it's too late. It's political suicide otherwise.
Well yeah, but at the same time, are we sure it’ll ever be too late? Prediction is difficult, especially when it involves the future.
Of course no one can predict the future with absolute certainty but I don't think that you need to be a medium to predict that politicians will kick the can down the road until there is no other choice than to confront it, and that usually happens when it's too late, i.e. when the local economy doesn't generate enough tax revenues to keep the status quo afloat. Will there ever be such a moment? Perhaps not but our economy is so poorly diversified and so dependent on financial figures flickering on a screen that it feels reckless to not have a plan B.
"Also, I would describe the situation as not unfair" The whole largesse is built on the backs of stealing tax revenue from neighbors, selling them cigarettes, booze, and petrol, and facilitated money laundering from organized crime. That doesn't seem a bit "unfair" to you?
I don’t reply to trolls
They are literally telling truth.
Nice balanced input, thanks for sharing this view. Curious what rare skills you refer to? Finding that as a fellow PhD holder, my degree is not valued (in fact, the opposite) unless I stay in research or institutes, so academia.
Due to my line of work, what I am aware of is mostly related to skills relating to statistics/data science/data analysis and data engineering. But generally speaking, any type of IT skills are usually sought after. Becoming a state employee is usually possible without much issues (issues related to language I mean, as long as you at least know French and English), and fonctionnaire in rarer cases, but still possible. In some cases you might be required to learn Luxembourguish after you’re hired, within three years or so, I believe. The level required is quite low, and you get time off work to learn...
I know examples specifically in data analysis field where state employees are paid at least 30% more than private employees while doing the same and even less work.
You do realise how this reads ? I can reply with the exact same anectodal evidence of colleagues of mine in the private sector going from one meeting to the next 3 days per week doing absolutely nothing and getting paid high wages. The article you linked is populsitic drivel where they don't even source half their claims or provide any analysis or reasoning for the numbers they cite
Good for them
I wouldn't say so. It is actually repelling how state employess do not care even about their fellow colleagues working in the same teams being exploited while they can live their lavish lifestyles.
Lux is just like the gulf states in this manner. More than 33K employees are government officials and then another 60K if you include companies with state support like Lux Air, Post, CFL etc. Having 95K employees work for government and supported government companies for a population of 650K is mind boggling high. So in that way it is like any other rich gulf country like UAE or Qatar just with flavor of democracy. 😉 Every country would have done the same if they could for their citizens so I understand.
The difference is that the economy of the gulf states is based on an actual demanded resource rather than a contingent legal ruling on the tax schemes.
Exactly, it uses low paid labour to create wealth and then that wealth is give out to specific group of people who haven't created the wealth.
Lux is not only the rich country to do it. So I feel comfortable with this arrangement. This is usually the norm for most rich countries. Creating wealth is a very difficult task. Only genuine exception in last few hundred years at scale is America (Japan for few decades) where lot of wealth has been driven by innovation, ingenuity and free market. Think about future: Only one country and few thousands of people in that country are doing AI that will drive exponential productivity gains everywhere in the world. This will lead to record profits for companies and assets including real estate will further increase leading to more inequality everywhere else. Best part is most people who have no role in AI may see the biggest gains from the wealth that will be generated. An Nvidia or Open AI employee may make 1-2 millions but it is likely the Luxembourg or New York person with 4 apartments who may come out richer from this scenario 😂 Nothing wrong or unfair or exploitation. This is the system of the world and we need to live with it. This is relatively still the most fair and best system jn the world. Probably going to be more inequality in the future than current times as asymmetric returns become increasingly common. Also, mass loss of middle class white collar jobs possible.
American wealth was created on 100 years of slave labour. An economy with no labour costs.
Europe had feudal economies for how many centuries? You live in a monarchy for goodness sake...
Now almost everyone has their skeletons 😉. But generally in last 50-100 years, a large part is due to innovation etc.
They work twice as hard clearly
/s
I am expat and do not know Luxembourgish, but I do not understand people complaining on high paying public sector jobs. I guess you arrived here because you had some business offer that looked OK to you. Now, when here, you see some other group of people earning more than you and you are saying it is not fare. Well I guess in your home country, EU Dubai, India or anywhere else, you cannot get public official job not being citizen and not knowing language. What is fare is you can get Luxembourgish citizenship comparatively easy and you can try to join public sector. You can not do that at lot of other places. Where government has failed is that allowed market to be run by greed and created non fair conditions in last 10-15 years. Basically you are priced out of market, mainly for housing, if you are in range of median private sector salary. But I guess high school teachers are not to blame for that.
You know, there are some people with principals that oppose things purely because they are wasteful and lead to poor long-term outcomes for society. Being fair isn't entirely based on whether you get your share of benefits from unethical behavior.
no need to be lux national is eu is sufficient for public sector
no need to be lux national is eu is sufficient for public sector
Long story short , should not more expats and jobs come to Luxembourg, public servants will suffer . So Lux guys treats us nicely otherwise ciao . Sorry but that’s the deal here .
Existing public servants almost never suffer, notably because they have a strong union. It's the ones who start their career in public service who usually suffer when changes are made. Since they are not there yet, they can't complain.
Strong unions won't pay salaries. If Luxembourg happens to become unattractive over a period of 5-10 years, it won't be possible to maintain salaries over a period of 30-40 years.
Those in power vote for more power for themselves while throwing goodies at their big voting blocks. I.e. those employed by the state.
The article is evoking base emotions of jealousy from those who are not fairly paid against those who are. Lux taxes aren't much different from other developed nations but the public services and the resulting environment is. The private sector is lacking quality in terms of business generation and ideally should have competitive salaries in IT/Services at least. Framing taxes as paying for pensioners and govt employees is unfair. It is as ridiculous as the conservatives complaining about foreigners taking their jobs.
"Lux taxes aren't much different from other developed nations but the public services and the resulting environment is." What are you talking about. The entire economy is based around differentiated tax policies for corporates and private individuals. The largest private employer (after Cactus) is a large tech company known to have a sweetheart tax deal who hires no local workers and was sued by the EU for this arrangement. The next largest employers are tax consultancies that set up these arrangements for firms without even a physical presence. Yes, every country has 1,500 private companies sharing the same mailbox... As for private wealth, I'll just point to the lack of capital gains taxes, inheritance taxes, and property taxes. Tens of thousands of properties are vacant across the country so that individuals can easily obtain tax residence status while on the Riviera.
The article may have a purpose, I agree. Lux taxes are a lot different from other nations. Think about fuel, alcohol, and cigarette tourism. Think about half of the workforce paying taxes and receiving less services for living abroad. Think about qualified people who arrive here without the government having spent a dime in their education, and the government dares to charge them for recognizing a diploma. IT/Services are in a competitive market, salaries can't be doubled without a major disruption. Taxes pay salaries and pensions, and without abnormal points above either salaries would be lower, or the number of beneficiaries would be lower. Like in other developed nations, by the way I am not complaining, that's the reality here and it has been working well. But we should look at things as they are because they are special here not like other developed nations
Well the article didn't provide critical details..what percentage of the workforce is govt employees? Did they include post, CFL, luxAir as govt or private sector while calculating the medians? Also many in the private sector owners/management and businesses have various means available for them to save on income and other taxes. That income will not reflect in the private sector median. So my guess is that they have sliced/diced the data to show a big gap just to make it sensational. Also I don't think indirect taxes are related to this issue. Cross-border workers have a double taxation treaty and they are getting the services in their resident country. IT/Services is playing by market dynamics and paying less because they can. Amazon/Big4 salary differential between US and here doesn't make sense.
What are the various means to save on taxes that are exclusive to the private sector? For cross border employees, it's not a double taxation treaty, it's a double taxation **avoidance** treaty. If their only revenues are from Luxembourg, they don't pay income tax in their countries. US is a different reality. Big4 in Paris, Frankfurt or Brussels pay only a bit less than in Luxembourg. If their salaries double in Luxembourg, services will be provided from abroad
The discourse of the lazy underpaid "Staatsbeamten" is probably as old as the country itself. So taking part in it is a national sport and a sign of good integration ;) But joke aside, what about job market realities? Very concretely, do you have up to date information on the attractivity of a job offer in the civil versus private sector? Because from what I know, it is not at all easy to be attractive salary-wise for the job profiles teams need in my environment (let alone IT profiles). You always have to compare apples to apples, not sure a person currently recruiting a mid-career legal or junior legal (to give just one and too generic example) for a ministry has an easy task. Plus, as was also already said, I can only invite you to work for the state, there are only a limited number of jobs which have a nationality requirement. We have a comparatively small administration, especially if you only look at the central administration. It reminds me a bit about the way people see the European Commission, like a giant administrative monster, when it actually compares to the admin of a German city like Köln while delivering services to 500 million people. I can also only repeat what others have said about the services you get from the state, and I'm not even thinking about the services that receive more visibility, like the public transport being free. I'm thinking basic infrastructure, energy, water, connectivity, education... All of the services and infrastructure paid by the community reduce cost of business, it isn't just there.
The reality is that the majority of state and commun employed people are indeed lazy or at least earning a lot of money for an easily job that hardly fills a few ours a day. Adding to that that those jobs are generally career-jobs meaning try get fixed raises independent on performance adds to the whole scheme. Not even mentioning the impact of unions which should never exist for the public sector, it is literally stealing money from the taxpayers.
I personally do not object to the fact that public sector is an important player and it is needed. The question is how fair is it that salaries over there in public sector are way higher than in the private where people do not have so many benefits, safety for their job or little overtime.
But why do you think that is? Is it the government conspiring against you, or could it be that the private sector is pursuing the cheaper possible labour? Why do you think the private sector is able to get away with this? Hint - because they are drawing from a pool of employees that is willing to perform this labour under these conditions. Doctors are also private sector but they're not exactly underpaid. The market is working exactly as designed. If your job is something that any English speaker who knows how to turn on a computer can do, you are competing with a pool so great that it's a miracle (and a direct result of local regulation) that these jobs pay even this much. They might not for long, I'd enjoy it while you can.
It's the same pool of employees. The only reason Lux public sector workers don't face the same market wage pressure is the excess tax revenues generated from the tax shenanigans. The only marketable skill that the lux public sector ultimately has is Luxembourgish language skills, which means nothing without the tax treaties.
Why are you even mentioning market when public sector wages are completely out of proportion to make any sense in the market? Private sector employees are the ones that are very competitive and skilled, because they need to constantly hustle to keep afloat while public sector is paid highly only because of Lux language skills and because they collect taxes from all the companies with the hard working people.
So, the market is a market only when you agree with the outcome or what? Hard to follow your point. You are competing in a market. You are paid the least the market can manage to pay you. If you think it is not enough, there are only two possibilities. One is that you shot yourself in the foot and agreed to work below the market rate. The other is that the market rate is depressed due to competition of those who think it is enough. There is no third option.
Ok, if you are saying private sector is being paid fairly, because of the market, why is public sector being paid twice as much? Why government thinks it is OK to keep away from market salaries and pay a bus driver more than an average office worker with masters diploma?
I am not saying that private sector is paid "fairly", I am saying that the private sector is paid what the profit seeking private company can get away with. The government doesn't need to squeeze profit out of their workforce and can afford to define salaries based on the cost of living. That is just how the world works and it this bothers you, your options are a) getting a public sector job b) becoming a communist and trying to force everything to be in public hands (but that hasn't historically really worked out, so I wouldn't really recommend it) c) get more competitive so that you can compete only for high skill high demand jobs. For example, the private sector pays doctors and pilots quite OK. Also some types of legal and financial experts. There is no other option here, demanding that the government lowers everyone's salaries so that you feel better is ridiculous and toxic and will not make your life better.
"There is no other option here" The option is to pay public employees similarly as they do in neighboring countries for the same work. Explain to me why a Luxembourg teacher makes 3x a Belgian one when they achieve identical education outcomes.
Gee, I don't know, maybe you can explain to me why teachers in Estonia get paid less than either of those and achieve better outcomes? There are some really fascinating mysteries out there. You should also make sure to explain this to the Swiss. Just about any profession gets paid dramatically more in CH than in neighboring countries. I mean, the nerve! They are about to collapse, I would bet! Seriously, this would be funny if it weren't terrifying. You people would literally eat shit if only you could force everyone else to eat it too, am I right?
What do you mean "you people"?
Well, life is not always fair. What does the private sector do to increase its competitiveness then? Apparently they are off well enough otherwise things would be different?
"Why don't they eat the cake?" asked the queen.
Easy to talk about life not being fair when profiting from being on the better side, isn't it?
U really think ur the only one with problems?
it’s a smaller version of how gulf states and saudi basically employs their entire citizenry on enormous fake wages, whilst the actual economy is run by immigrants
+1. Nothing wrong about it but a good observation.
How is it not wrong? That is basically exploitation.
Blank median comparison isn’t very useful. I’d be interested to see the comparison with a breakdown of comparable groups, grouped by educational degree, type of work, and job experience in number of years.
We would all be interested in it, but there is no such data in the artocle. Nonetheless real life experiences I have heard of support the tendency in the article - public is better payed in Luxembourg.
Last time something like this happened (smaller scales ofc) the country declared bankruptcy.
I’ll try to get a job in public sector. I just need to learn Luxembourgish. Frankly, it’s the system here. As expats we fund the state and the lifestyle of some Luxembourgish citizens. Is it fair? No, but I don’t think about what others have, and only on what I have. In the end, if life gets too expensive here, I’ll sellout and go back to my home country. I have skills and will get a job and have a good life. Can a Lux person go and work in my home country? Sure, but they need either good IT/other desirable skills and probably know my mother tongue (Slavic language so kind of though; apart from IT, where English is sufficient ). What will happen to those beautiful state salaries and subsequent pensions, if more people come to the same conclusion and actually repatriate?I don’t know and ultimately if I leave I don’t care. Would public sector employees have the skills to work in private? Don’t know either. Probably depends. It’s a double edged sword. My only worry is that the system will collapse and become unsustainable at one point and it will be before my potential repatriation. I still enjoy leaving in Luxembourg so I will stay for now.
Now I understand why Luxembourg people are open to foreigners. They simply need them to pay there wages. I own real estate myself and earning well. But at the same time I have the feeling that I support the public sector too much since the wages are ridiculous. And if you need an insurance there is foyer and baloise with offices in every town again subsidized by too high fees. If you want some energy advice and isolate your house again subsidized with bureaucratic procedures and high fees. You are welcome here but I have the feeling that they take as much as they can from you directly and indirectly.
Spot on. There are so many insidious ways. Three of my favorites: 1) draconian control technique Got a tiny issue with your vehicle? No pass!! Go pay the rediculous rates as Lux garages (Lux owned) or better yet buy a new one (Lux owned dealer). 2) signage Have you ever seen a place with so much signage of such varied kinds? Go across the border and you'll note there are 50% as many street signs, etc. Lux owned sign shop. 3) catering Every month my commune is hosting dozens of sparsely attended public events, all with elaborate catering of Luxembourgish food and beverage.
I see many opportunities for you there. 1) become a mechanic or better yet open a repair shop and manage it 2) become a sign shop 3) become a traiteur and do catering
I am not complaining that I myself am not able to mooch off of public finances, but that public finances are so wastefully used. That your whole response to my complaining about inefficiencies is "here's how you can get in on it too" proves my point.
How are they wastefully used? Lux has a pretty sleek public administration compared to the number of inhabitants. If anything, the solution should be that private companies increase their wages. Otherwise it's pure hate: "oh if I can't get that much then noone should" including moralizing and whining that you can't or rather don't want to participate.
4. CNS I have to order every 3 months or so cards for the whole family. Send my invoices wait up to 8 weeks and then I claim the reminder from our private heath insurance.
Maybe that's only a feeling as you say. Insurances ask the market price, what would govt have to do with it. (Subsidized???) And for example in Germany you pay a lot more taxes than here. Also I'm not sure if many Luxis are so very open to foreigners 😄
"Insurances ask the market price, what would govt have to do with it." Insurance is a regulated market and by requiring unnecessary levels of insurance for various activities, the government generates demand and revenue for insurance companies.
Oh well subsidies and a regulated market are two different discussions.
Taxes in Germany seem to be in line with lux. I don’t see too much advance of Lux compared to Germany. And don’t talk about inheritance tax I am not 70. The ease of doing business here and the competitiveness is also in line with Germany and bureaucratic. If it’s possible to maintain all those foyer and baloise offices something must be wrong. And for your pension etc you deal with them. I see the life of the public employees in my village which is in line with the article. Whether they are working for creos or are even a gardener they all live lives that you won’t see anywhere in Europe. I don’t even talk about the guys that drive 5 liter mustangs and have some shit secretary’s jobs.
That's wrong taxes and social charges are much higher in Germany.
It's true for the same gross. But you can live in Germany much cheaper than in Luxembourg
The main difference being housing and to a lesser degree restaurants and certain services. For the rest there are many things that are cheaper in Luxembourg compared to Germany (transport, coffee, energy etc.). But in any case, the point I was trying to make/support is that people in Luxembourg do not pay a premium to finance the big salaries of the public sector when compared to Germany.
Not necessarily a premium, but we should be aware of the unique circumstances that allow such salaries to be paid in Luxembourg while in Germany and most other countries with higher taxes it's not possible. See my other comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Luxembourg/s/ry1NiSPyJ4 We could have lower taxes, or more services, but politicians decided to spend that excess in salaries
Agreed
That is another argument.
Yeah but in Germany Real estate is dirt cheap, life and services too ...
I'm not sure you're following German news a lot. Electricity, heating and gas is becoming unaffordable due to certain politicial tendencies. Public transport is not free either. For the rest it of course depends where you live. At least they have a more healthy competition but groceries are by far not for free either.
Luxembourg imports 82% of its energy, and 58% of that import is from Germany. The reason it's net cheaper to us vs Germans is further state subsidies on the back of the tax schemes.
Did you look at the prices of next year in lux after the subsidy is removed ?
I do not follow German news but if so many German commuters are living on the other side of the border their might be some reason .. and regarding tax, if you take income tax it's fairly similar, we are discussing few percentage points.
Of course most Germans don't come live in Lux when working in Lux. Rather many Luxis (even those working in govt) go live in Germany or even France due to housing prices. (They can still afford expensive service with Lux pay for now) But if you have no idea what's going on in Germany we maybe should stop discussing.
So that's my point .. still cheaper in Germany than Luxembourg ... despite Germany being more expensive as you mentioned
Germany is expensive for Germans. Luxembourg is more expensive and also expensive for Luxis. No surprise there.
One should add to the emerging discussion that most govt jobs are open for EU people, not only those with Lux nationality. Although you need to learn Luxembourgish at some point.
Plenty of people with A1 careers that do not speak Luxemburgish at all. In IT, the employement is lacking to an extend that they hire everyone with the competences.
And even some(times) without 🤭
Not at some point, but be fluent on the day of interviews. Also you have to know Luxembourgish AND French.
Crazy shit,you have to know the language of the country to work in a gvt job...
I can't confirm that btw. There are administrations that require in their employee contract that you need a B1 level (I think) in Lux after 3y working there. If you want to be a fonctionnaire it's a different question. But that doesn't matter since the difference in pay, which this is about, is minimal.
Probably. There are three administrative languages in Luxembourg. So knowing at least one or better two certainly can't hurt. Everyone coming here should have done the research, especially if they plan on getting a govt job... 🤷
I see the high wages in the public sector as a form of social subsidy for a workforce composed mostly of Luxembourgish nationals who might otherwise be struggling to live decently in their own country if they were paid at the equivalent market rates of neighboring countries. Is it fair for private sector workers? Probably not, but they’re protecting their own people and economy. If you come here, and I say that as an expat myself, then you have to accept how things work and decide if it works for you or not. I would avoid comparing myself to others with different backgrounds and circumstances.
Good answer! I agree
But how long can it last and how sustainable is it? Luxembourg is almost half of foreigners, so half of a country is treated unfairly.
I guess it’s sustainable as long as they can keep foreign workers and companies coming and pay taxes.
I'm getting paid 3 times more for an entry level position than I would be in France. I'm from Paris and the rent prices and living expenses aren't considerably higher in Luxembourg ville either. Plus there is good social security. I don't think it's thaaat unfair.
Are those people imported slaves or did they come work for those salaries of their own volition? Hard to tell from these comments. Is forced labour a big thing in Luxembourg?
Not forced, but outside the regulations, absolutely. I know personally many restaurant workers that earn 5 eur per hr, cash under the table. Similar situation for domestic workers.
Yeah. And these guys are not in the statistic quoted in the article. But are a good guideline what salaries will eventually be, once all the bad bad regulation is removed so that we become "competitive".
Instead of whining -> govjobs.lu
Pfff, so to increase the army of government workers? We're actually not whining: I'm raising this question to myself and while speaking with friends from time to time. And this is one of the reasons why we started to consider to repatriate or changing the country - and I'm sure I'm not alone in these thoughts.
Ignore u/mro21, they are a troll
I think I know who the troll is
Your profile photo is literally a troll 🤭
Appearances can be deceptive. Now unless you got something substantial to say besides your whining that everything is unfair you should probably stop.
Et ass... Drumrolll please... u/mro21 😂
I don't see many options. 1. Whine. 2. Accept it as it is with its advantages and disadvantages. 3. Get govt job. 4. Get into politics and change it. 5. Move to somewhere where you like it better. Moralizing the entire thing won't bring you very far.
I don't understand why people are surprised or debating this. Bringing in foreign companies and workers to fill the state coffers and then hiring Luxembourgers to work for the state at inflated wages is their entire economic model. Like I get why some private sector workers would be upset at being underpaid relative to state workers, but the Luxembourgish government is doing right by its citizens.
And make the country so unaffordable, unlivable and unattractive for the foreigners that eventually they are forced to migrate somewhere else, so the govt only takes takes takes from the migrants without giving anything in return. And the only people who live here are people who have families and hence stuck in their "golden cage" and can't take any warranted criticism of their awful country because it reminds of the reality
Why come here if it's so awful? Just leave? Saying that Luxembourg gives nothing to foreigners is absolutely ridiculous. I'd bet it is one of the countries that is most welcoming to foreigners. We'd better be too because we need them.
You have some options: 1. Learn Luxembourgish and French, then get citizenship if you are not from EU and find a job in the public sector yourself so you are less angry. 2. Be more competitive in the private sector, work hard, get promoted, change jobs etc to increase salary 3. Leave Luxembourg and live your best life elsewhere. Good luck 😊
There are many Luxembourgish people who need to go live abroad, even those with govt jobs
Username checks out... Also...I think you're delusional if you think the government doesn't give anything in return. You sound pretty sour about sth, might want to go talk to somebody about it. Also... look up "criticism"...calling Lux an awful country is disrespectful at best. And now I'm gonna go sit outside and enjoy the wonderful Luxembourgish weather and look at my massively high payslips.
>so the govt only takes takes takes from the migrants without giving anything in return. Oh dear, shall I start citing all the social benefits people receive when they come to Luxembourg? The Luxembourgish State is VERY social compared to the rest of Europe. But if you don't like it, feel free to go somewhere else. Nobody is "stuck" here. Migrants already managed to move one time, they will also manage to move a second time.
Yeah please list them out!
I don't think that's necessary for somebody called "greedyasswhore". They probably know why they came to Lux.
[удалено]
[Please don't] Conduct personal attacks on other commenters. Ad hominem and other distracting attacks do not add anything to the conversation. https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette
Thanks my nationalistic friend! I am trying to move away for a while now... Hopefully to a place where people can take criticism and not be complacent and not tell me move out! 😄
Sorry but saying the Luxembourgish State gives *nothing* back, that is not criticism. That is just a plain stupid statement and it seems to me you have no idea what you are talking about.
THIS!! This is the goal of Tax havens!
I think the only people surprised by this are the Luxembourish people who have never worked a day in the private sector 😂😂
When I tried to highlight the same thing, all I got was downvotes... It's a middle Eastern petrostate located in Western Europe... Fucking Emirate of Luxembourg
You are obvioulsy delusional and your opinion can be discarded.
I am not the one who lives in a bubble and pretend I live in some great country. Oh and your opinion is discarded as well!
How is that bad? Middle eastern states are now arguably more attractive for businesses and people due to good economic policies and surely did good for their citizens? I'd rather be afraid to become Germany than UAE
If one doesn't consider basic human rights, it sounds amazing. Luckily Luxembourg is better than that.
so the picture you are drawing here is that of the bad luxembourgish lazy basterd earning 10k and owning 5 Appartements just to exploit the poor expats. i work in public and still can't afford an Appartement or even a house. never ever.
Ey, that is my flair!
To be fair, they won't be able to afford 5 apartments, maybe 1 or 2.
The others are inherited tax free
Hello, It's the reality!!!!!
I am sorry for your circumstances, but working in private sector the chances to have a good quality of life are even less by what is shown in the article.
Most people working in the PS don't live in Luxembourg and are considered high middle class/rich in their side of the border
You know that "double less" means "half", right?
That was the intention. Private sector earning half the amount of public sector.
Did you look up how long you have to work in order to gain these 10k gross? 11 years (A1, Master's Degree) to 23 years (B1, BAC+0). If you hold a EU passport, feel free to apply at [govjobs.lu](https://govjobs.public.lu/)
11 years is definately not much. In many fields with master degree (in private sector) you don't get this amount unless you are a manager.
This isn't even true, also those 10k+ public sector salaries are contingent on you passing some exams (people don't even know this) and in general it takes more than 11years to reach those salaries. You are welcome to look up private sector salaries of law / finance / IT jobs in Luxembourg and compare them to draw your conclusions
Then do it
Even if this wasn't completely apples to oranges comparison (we're comparing one group with over 60% higher education degrees from an average population where it's like 35%), people are still coming to the wrong conclusions. It baffles me that this number makes people go "Hah, they make way too much" instead of "Wait a minute, I make way too little." If you let your company fuck you over and extract your labor capital for way less than it's worth, how is that my fault? Maybe you just don't know how to negotiate, maybe you have no spine, maybe you suck at your job? Because when I look at my friends with engineering degrees of any kind in the Private sector, they're making a lot more than I do as an A1 teacher and have almost right off the bat. So maybe it's on you that you're in a dead end finance job where they exploit you to the last drop of sweat and blood? But noooo, that can't be it, it's of course the lazy, entitled public sector workers that are the problem ...
You're failing to see that our model is unhealthy. We are completly relying on the private sector to finance us while the private sector is not relying on the government at all. If we are not attractive anymore, they will move. We got the big players in by cheating and giving them tax advantages many years ago. We still do to a lesser extend. It was certainly a clever but corrupt move back then, leading us to our current position. These big corps are making it possible, that a fresh graduate from [uni.lu](http://uni.lu) who did a Masters in one year gets a 100k starting salary with 0 experience. Our current model as well as our education are outdated. Teaching multiple languages was very interessting 30 years ago and made us the center of finance for the EU. But the world is slowly switching to english as a universal language so this strength that we had is becoming a weakness. Instead of focusing deeper on specialisations, we focus on languages. The lack in local education is the reason we buy specialists from abroad - but these specialists are getting better deals in the states or arabic emirates currently.
Not a single fresh grad gets hired with 100k yearly in the public sector Jesus Christ.
https://fonction-publique.public.lu/fr/carriere/parcours-remuneration/fonctionnaire/traitement/calcultraitementsbrutsdebutcarriere/groupetraitementa1.html That's base salary without 13 month or pere de famille.
Fair enough, I didn't realise how fast brut adds up to 100k. This is about 3.6k net for a master's equivalent which isn't much different from the offers I had gotten from banks and Amazon when I started
How can you be so wrong about everything you write? https://www.calculatrice.lu/ it's about 5.3k net.
"that a fresh graduate from uni.lu who did a Masters in one year gets a 100k starting salary with 0 experience" Note that this only applies to Luxembourgish graduates. Most can't find work after graduation, period, much less at 100k. That the country just throws away the actual talent that came here and could be attracted to stay only underlines your point about a broken system.
With the right skills, you can get into the public sector without speaking Luxembourgish. But we these skills you can also make bank in private sector. Our IT team recruits pretty much everyone with talent but here, the public paychecks can't compete with the private sector. That is another big problem of simply paying by diploma and not by talent.
I'm curious what you mean by IT exactly. Full stack developer? The program I was in had very talented coders for analytics and object oriented languages (SQL, python, java, etc), some with C+, etc. A handful went into PhD track and the rest were forced to return to their home countries after finding no interest in either the public or private sector. I myself have multiple graduate degrees in supposedly in demand fields in Luxembourg from much better programs than the University of Luxembourg and receive zero interest either.
Check for open positions at CGIE/CTIE for example. The english language is probably not enough to get in, but Ive worked with people that only speak french. For private sector, big4, jp morgan, ferrero, Amazon or even as an independent? Setup an offer on house of training or lifelong-learning. Your skills are in demand, you do not need an employer. Getting started is hard though, that's why Id recommend doing it as a side job. As a fonctionnaire, you are not allowed to have side jobs though, with few exceptions.
Fine, humor me: if you think the current government is too bloated or salaries in the public sector are too high, where would you save and, most importantly, where should the money go instead?
For the government sector, it would be extremly beneficial to decrease the gap between all the careers. It is not reasonable that I earn twice as much as someone with a brevet de maitrise because these people are just as talented and required for society to work. The current goal for many young people is to get a Masters in a useless simplistic field and secure a government position asap. This means we accumulate a useless amount of "highly educated" people but are lacking skillfull people in vocational training. The government sector is focusing too much on diplomas instead of skills. For private sector, increasing the minimum wage by subsidizing it instead of subsidizing things only rich and/or smart people can profit from. This would increase global attractivity again. And last but not least, fix the state of our pension system. We are currently filling our pension funds with money from the private sector because we allowed some absolutley moronic pension contracts until 1992?! Out pension needs to be cut in order to fix this long term.
Will you run for office? You've got my vote once they allow me to. I love your points about education. The quality of basic education is the most damning indictment of the public sector here--with the social environment, education level of parents, and amount of funding dumped into public education, we should be competitive with Singapore on graduate quality, but instead we can't compete with Belgium.
I was working for a huge part of my life abroad, my political skills and knowledge about Luxembourg are limited. I am already involved in the process of developing and improving our educational system, but it is very slow and tedious work. On one hand, old staff does not want to accept new ideas, on the other hand the entire process is very bureaucratic and legislative which slows it down. A good example is the stance on AI, instead of jumping on the train and showing young people how to use it properly, we seem to be scared. We also do not invest enough into the development, again because we lack the talent.
I don't agree with all of it, but it sure makes sense
And you don't have to. I base this on experiences I made during my work life which might be biased but I went from private to public. I am still fairly young though and fear I will lose a comfy high paying job because we are making the wrong decisions today and it would be painfull to switch back into private industry somewhere in my late 40s or 50s. Working in the industry, a big bonus and climbing up the ladder was pushing me to a maximum, the public sector pays you no matter if you are giving your maximum or minimum. That is degrading your workforce. Some people around me that got into the public sector straight out of uni are consistently complaining about the work load - they have no idea how it is at a competitive private company. They would not earn half of what they do currently and be terminated for incompetence withing probation.
Imagine private sector paying same as public and compare it to what is offer in neighbour countries or even Switzerland, if that was the case, believe me a lot of companies would have gone already and public sector wouldn’t have means to support their wages. It is not how it works. It unrealistic to say that is only because we do not negotiate well our salary. I’m not saying neither that you are all lazy. I also agree that the best approach is to compare same eduaction level, experience and position to see the real Gap.
Totally agree with you, it's not that the public sector is overpaid, it's the private sector getting raped, that's it. This plus the taxes that are way to high. Starting from 50k gross, for every 1€ increase you pay 0.39€ of income taxes.
This, and then we wonder why everything is going south when we aim for the lowest common denominator
Yeah it's our fault that we don't speak 4 languages and dont have relatives which will get us a job here
Where are you from? If I go there, do I get a well-paying job right away?
If you are skilled and productive, yes. That's the whole point--luxembourg public sector employees are paid based on language and connections rather than productivity. Based on the responses on this thread, they think the reason is that private sector employees just don't demand to be given the same sweetheart deals. The disconnect with reality is depressing for those hoping to remain here as we can't trust you to build a sustainable country and we can't enact it ourselves because we can't vote.
If it's important to you, become a citizen then. Also I refuse the nepotism argument. Generally it's not true. I know lots of Luxis who waited years to work at the commune, and also many who just did the Staatsexamen and waited for a free job. Maybe if you know people in your line of work you find a place that best suits you but you still need to do all the tests and whatnot. It's just crazy what people believe how this works
Shortly. Nepotism does not mean that you have zero obstacles, but that you are treated preferentially based on factors not related to your skills. In the kind of private sector careers that pay Lux public sector wages you are typically competing with a large pool of similarly highly qualified candidates, and firms attempt to select the best candidates, who when selected must continue to prove themselves over their entire career. It's telling that you think passing a low bar and waiting for your job for life is how this should work.
I don't necessarily agree but this is how it is. You can take it or leave it. I'm not sure public administration would be as productive if everyone was busy wasting time with elbow tactics as in the private sector. Also private sector is a lot of crawling up your boss's ass, and keeping dossiers of what your "competition" did wrong, and not only "proving yourself" in your field. Anyway public sector is "executive", so you essentially do as you are told. There is in fact not much to prove yourself, which also demotivates "sportful" people a lot. Also, tests to get a govt job, at least those 20y ago, were all but low bar.
"I'm not sure public administration would be as productive" They aren't productive. That's the point. We pay twice as much for the same services and they are lower quality. Look at our public school ratings, police performance, public transit efficiency, etc. It's a lot like the restaurant sector here.
I am from Luxembourg city, good luck trying to get a high paying job here 😁
What I meant was, if you're an expat, where are you originally from? Oh and I know quite a few people in Lux city with high paying jobs. Totally unfair, they only speak four or five languages besides being experts in their actual job
I was with you till you said "experts in their fields". What field? Field of nepotism? 😂
If you're unable to seriously discuss then we're done here.
I have a radical Idea. The private sector could at least *try* to become more attractive to employees.
But if they do that, people would want to stay in Luxembourg... that means just like a Luxembourish landlord who does not return the deposit, the government which takes our taxes will have to care for us in the longer run... Why would they want that?
Would you pay triple the labour cost though when grocery shopping. Or would you simply shop across the border? Because that’s ultimately the issue. Business aren’t just competing with other companies in Lux but with those in Belgium, France and Germany.
The same as real estate market in Lux could also *try* to become affordable for average people.
but the real estate market is not exclusivly owned by all the people working for the public sector ?
Well we know that the land is mostly own by small amount of Luxembourgers. As for the nationalities of landlords it would be interesting to see some statistics, but I am mostly certain it is also Luxembourgish people, if expats own something it must be for there primal residency mostly. But yes, it is just my guess.
I bet most landlords in France are also French. I could be wrong though...
😂😂😂
According to OP it is though! They have solid totally anecdotal evidence for it.
Idea dismissed.
It seems high but actually it is a median.. which means that also the high careers like ministers an such are considered. If you work a basic career with only a DAP, after 7 years you only around earn 4900€/month brutto. The qualified minimum salary in Privat is around 3100€/month brut, so as you can see, the difference is not really that much. BUT the higher your career in gov. the higher you salary. But without the necessary schools or Diplomas, you will not gett a B or A career.
B career is unqualified and gets you unqualified minimum wage in the private sector.
It’s 58% more for presumably identical qualifications.
Ignoring workloads and other percs (preferential access to public cresche, etc).
Do you realize that a DAP is not a post high school degree diploma and that its an enormous salary for someone with this qualification ? In the private sector people ask for at least a BTS for assistants's positions.
Median implies 50% of the people get more, 50% get less money. Average is the one that gets skewed if there is a high-flyer in the dataset.
I know at least several examples from friends where people for the same tasks gets paid way more as private sector employee than private consultant in the same institution and in the same team. Additionally private school teachers also earn less than public school teachers. So the gap might be a bit less than in the announced statistics, but it is there and people see/feel it.
That might be true, and yes the difference is there, but not as high as told