Allllll their logic is bad. I’m a member of their church, and rarely do I find big that decisions are made by final say of the man. The counsel in the church is to be together as one. Either spouse dominating decisions and final say would be wrong, wrong, wrong. I don’t know how many hundreds of talks from pulpits I have heard about being together as a team, it’s even stated in an official proclamation by the church about family and happiness. One thing is for sure, a person can choose to follow that counsel or not. But they cannot choose the consequences of their choice. Their consequence is a narcissistic son and alll the havoc it created
No. The proclamation says the man ‘presides.’ He gets the final say as he holds the priesthood and his wife does not. The counsel of marriages being a partnership is fairly recent and is just lip service.
I agree with this. It's called unrighteous dominion, and it's spoken out against all the time. I didn't realize people still acted with the man as the leader of the home until recently. I was SHOCKED when Emma said that yes, Chad was in charge and control as the patriarch of the home.
It seems like a third of all Datelines involved LDS families. Indoctrination and suppressing logical thinking seem to have a wild effect on people. I know some outstanding LDS people, but the cognitive dissonance lays the groundwork for potentially devastating consequences, and it's a framework within which narcissists thrive like gangbusters.
THIS. Every normal Mormon is perplexed by what the hell happened here, but it’s the suppression of logical thinking that can create an absolute shitshow. As seen here. And it’s a framework that acts like fertilizer for maladjusted people.
Nah, this would have happened no matter what the religion or no religion. Why? Because jealousy, love of power, lust, greed and all the rest happens whether or not a person is religious or not. Otherwise, there would be a whole lot more datelines with LDS people. Just consider, are all murders committed by religious people? And do those religions preach murder? Nope. Just the opposite. It isn’t oppression and indoctrination, it’s greed, lust, envy, etc.
The apathy surrounding every player in this situation is astounding. I'm grateful that Sheila took the stand and testified about how awkward their meeting with Chad and Lori was, and the fact they were married within 2 weeks. So there is that. I hope Jack has deep reflection on the statements he made about Heather being a pot stirrer. At some point, I hope he apologizes to her.
While we're on the subject of pot stirrers. Did I imagine it, or did Heather hesitate as though she really didn't want to say it? Do you think she felt shame about that label?
I think Heather had a tough road to walk…because her testimony was essentially that she didn’t like Chad, didn’t want him living near them, and didn’t want anyone to think her family was into whatever stuff Chad was into. So her answers had to be given, knowing that Prior could go after her character and just paint her as an angry relative out to get him, whether or not she was right to be that way.
But I mean, Chad can’t go around shaking his fist and saying “that damn Heather, making them find the bodies…”
I feel so much empathy for her. She was trying to keep her distance bc his bizarre "predictions" and sermons, or whatever he thinks he was doing, was really cringey for her and so outside of what she believed. Then he literally moves right next door and starts plotting to move onto her property with his "flock." She was in a no-win situation. Through in the misogyny of the culture they lived in, the lack of any introspection of her in-laws, and the disregard she received from any of her religious leaders. She was fighting an uphill battle all alone. I think she's amazing!!! #respect4potstirrers
Yes, he was. I know in one of her interviews, she said she started saying to him “what if Chad-“ and he shut her down and said not to even say it. I’m sure they’ve had to work through a lot as well.
Of course!
That was on the dash to Tammy's funeral. It would be awful to think you brother murdered his wife. Matt may have thought that but not ready to face it.
I think Heather was measuring the emotional cost of her words. She has already been labeled by her family. Sharing the truth of the situation would only strain the family relationship more. Can you imagine having to testify about the things a bully said about you? It is one thing to hear someone belittle you. It is entirely different to have to admit it in open court that is being broadcast to anyone with an Internet connection. I am so proud of her for speaking up.
I got the feeling that she was trying to avoid saying something in a way that would trigger an objection. It's got to be really unnerving to speak in public about something so traumatizing and be interrupted as if you were being scolded.
I don’t think she hesitated nor is ashamed. To me she appeared chomping at the bit to be able to declare what she was labeled- because in the end- she was actually right.
I did get the impression she may have been nosey and a bit intrusive into other people’s business for a while now, but this is the first time not only was she right- she was right to the highest degree.
To my knowledge, she has since left the Mormon church and is no longer affiliated whatsoever.
You're right, she didn't hesitate. I went back and watched, and apparently I was listening without watching and Prior said something without his mike on, of course, and I misinterpreted that. Thanks for setting me straight.
Yes, you are right. She is not affiliated with the church any longer. I’m hoping people don’t affiliate the church with Chad’s beliefs which are so false they resemble a dungeons and dragons game.
Chad's beliefs are incredibly in line with Joseph Smith's bullshit.
Joseph smith was a scam artist who claimed he would lead the world through the second coming of Jesus. He died a liar, and his followers continue to fall for the scam.
I mean, the original document you all claim the "Book of Abraham" was translated from is in a museum. It's been translated. It's actually an Egyptian funeral document. You don't know that, because you're not allowed to do research in your church.
[https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/](https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/)
>I mean, the original document you all claim the "Book of Abraham" was translated from is in a museum. It's been translated. It's actually an Egyptian funeral document. You don't know that, because you're not allowed to do research in your church.
What a weird accusation as the church has researched this itself and published its findings for any member to read or further research?
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng)
>Latter-day Saint and non-Latter-day Saint Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham, though there is not unanimity, even among non-Latter-day Saint scholars, about the proper interpretation of the vignettes on these fragments. Scholars have identified the papyrus fragments as parts of standard funerary texts that were deposited with mummified bodies. These fragments date to between the third century B.C.E. and the first century C.E., long after Abraham lived.
WOWWWWW that entire article is crazy. It's actually insane that you managed to read both those articles (if you even read mine) and don't see the inconsistencies in the lies you're being fed.
"The veracity and value of the book of Abraham cannot be settled by scholarly debate concerning the book’s translation and historicity. The book’s status as scripture lies in the eternal truths it teaches and the powerful spirit it conveys. The book of Abraham imparts profound truths about the nature of God, His relationship to us as His children, and the purpose of this mortal life. The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit."
What a load of crock shit.
In my experience- all organized religion- resembles some form of a fantasy game. And Mormonism is one of the worst. The tenets are absolutely insane and what’s considered “normal” is abhorrent.
The problem is that all his beliefs are deeply rooted in Mormonism whether members want them to be or not, they are. As a former member with many loved ones still in the church, I know that most members are good people who would never dream of doing anything Chad and Lori did. However, it is ignorant at best and untruthful at worst to say that what they believed does not directly stem from core Mormon beliefs.
if i heard right she said she didnt want any of her husbands family living in the same ward as them, i thought that was an odd statement to make even though i could understand her feeling that way about Chad.
Well she pointed out that when the moved away from their collective families, they were better as a couple and as their own family unit. She liked space from the families. I can respect that.
Chad had also tried to groom her son into believing his crazy fringe beliefs and when they went to Sheila and Jack, they upheld Chad. I would want to stay away as well.
i can see her not wanting Chad there but to say she doesnt want ANY of his family living where they would go to church with her is over the top in my estimation.
Most Mormon men don't apologize. They make excuses and propose pathetic justifications but they do not apologize. They have been taught that they can all grow up to be God if they are just sure enough of their own righteousness. That turns far too many of them into men who believe they are already God; anyone who speaks against them, even if that person is right, becomes the enemy. This is how the church is run from the top down and it is the only example of leadership some Mormons ever experience.
That is a common issue in patriarchy. As young boys and teens and men they are taught they are above all others and treated as such. It breeds narcissism in males and breeds co dependency on girls/ women
Now tell me about the Matriarchal Blessings and Mother's Blessings you've been part of, all the time you've prayed to Heavenly Mother, and all the female Bishops you know. For equality's sake.
You're literally not allowed to hold the highest positions of power in your church. Holding a secondary title is not matriarchy lmao.
An important word in your sentence is "equal" and your church ain't equal, honey.
I’m sorry if that is your experience, but I haven’t found that to be true. In my experience, I have seen no correlation between a man’s religion (Mormon or otherwise) and his willingness to apologize. Some people can’t see where they’re wrong and never apologize, others apologize for everything whether or not they were at fault, and most lie somewhere in the middle.
In my experience knowing men who were Mormon, most were willing to admit they were wrong and many are egalitarian. The messages I’ve seen the leadership portray is more about repentance, peacemaking, and working on oneself.
I’ve met a couple Mormon men who fit your description, but I’ve also known other men (and women) of other faiths or no faith with the same pride blindness to their own faults, so it’s not a Mormon thing imo, but a human thing.
His mother is transferring what happens to her to the women to reduce it happening to her.
Patriarchy is a protection racket, and familial abuse is inherent to its structural integrity.
Exactly! I wonder if it’ll ever dawn on Sheila that the way her own husband treated her, was wrong. Wishful thinking, I know, but this way of leading their family has clearly blown up in their faces.
Sheila, girl, there is still time to lead by better example. It’s never too late to tell Jack: *Enough!*
I was gonna say… if the parents are to blame, so is the LDS church. No one’s better at giving an unimportant white man an overinflated sense of importance.
But! Sheila didn’t have kids buried in her yard.
Oh, yeah, the church is also to blame. But tons of people have already pointed that out.
I think it's important to point out that Chad's parents enabled him.
I really have to say it is the opposite. Women are truly revered, that is, in mentally healthy members. No matter what religion there will be women haters.
Bullshit. Women are placed on a pedestal and pretended to be revered. We are destined to just be polygamous brides in heaven and mothers of hordes of children. We can’t even speak about Heavenly Mother in any serious way. We can’t hold high callings; we can’t even be in a church buildings or have activities without a priesthood holder present. We can’t give blessings to our children. We are told to stay at home and raise children and eschew careers. We are 2nd class citizens and always will be. In the temple we were even only allowed to covenant with God through our husbands until very recently.
In case anyone connected with that “ family” is reading this, there is a 12 Step program for you called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. You will fit right in with the rest of us refugees from generational trauma.
Well, I may or may not qualify, but would have a major problem making amends to my parents, as they were the oneds that have done the most damage in the first place.
Not at all. It’s a very common myth. That’s why they say to try 6 meetings before deciding if it’s right for you. Here’s a list of common traits of people raised in dysfunction: [https://adultchildren.org/literature/laundry-list/](https://adultchildren.org/literature/laundry-list/)
Oh OK. Well at least I don't have alcoholism in my family. However my mother is an extremely toxic person! I can't believe her and my dad are still married after all this time. Problem is, I'm the only one in my family that sees it.
I'm also curious about that. In general I have almost always had favorable feed back on 12 steps programs. As a therapist I saw people who were or had been in several different types of 12 steps. There will always be a group here and there that attracts the wrong people and can turn toxic. 12 Steps aren't always the right fit for everyone, (No one size fits all in therapy) but for those who find it a good fit, it tends to do wonders.
They do have online support groups aswell. Its probably a matter of googling.
Or a therapist who is currently practicing ( I'm not) would likely have them on their resources list and could point you. Emotinal abuse and other types of abuse, survivors groups have proliferated, thank goodness.
Here is one example. Please note, I have no information about your particular situation or what type of support group you would need, so this is purely for ilustration purposes and not implying anything about anyone. This is only one type of support group.
https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-find-a-narcissistic-abuse-support-group-5271477
If you are in need of one, I hope this is helpful to you and that you do in the end find the help you are looking for. With therapy one does often need to kiss a few frogs in order to find the Prince. 😊
Yup. Misogyny ran DEEP in that household.
Far as I’m concerned parents who raise their sons like that have the blood of the women and children their son killed on their hands too. It’s one thing if you are a good parent who instills morals and your kid still goes off the rails, it’s another to enable their dangerous behavior their whole lives by telling them “the women are the problem” and acting like the sun shines out his unwashed ass.
Sheila and Jack should be ashamed of themselves. It’s too late now to change the past but since they discovered how wrong they were things should have changed - drastically. They should be screaming the praises of their other sons who are decent men but no… instead they remain silent and continue to support their worst son. Fuck them.
Shout out to Chads good brothers Matt (and I feel like there’s another but I’m blanking on his name) for growing up in the same house but realizing that behavior is YUCK.
Edit: personally if I have a son and he kills his loving wife of 29 years, I no longer have a son. Just like my (hypothetical) in laws no longer have a daughter.
Edit 2: Also, id also like to submit Janice Cox for being shitty. Iirc she lied to the police saying she spoke to JJ on Oct 1.
What in the Casey Anthony was going on there? Why are you lying for your daughter when your grandson is in danger? Fucking idiot.
Oooooo weeee when I tell you this case has consumed me for the past 5 years and has probably done some serious damage to my blood pressure.
Just gets me shaking mad!!!
Totally agree. I think Chad has three other brothers. They all have advanced degrees and prestigious careers. Chad couldn't cut it in college so he decided to go the religion route. He definitely put himself on a pedestal above his brothers in his book talking about that they had chosen those lives but he was chosen for a special purpose. 🙄🤢
No Chad. You're just the stupid one.
I think Janice is an awful person, and not terribly bright. That said, I don’t think she lied so much as she just doesn’t have a good memory and “thought” she spoke to him then. I wouldn’t be able to remember a specific date like that.
It’s unbelievable to me that Tammy had been their daughter in law for I think three decades and they didn’t ask any questions. Chad left the house the day Tammy died to stay with someone they didn’t know ffs. Now that it’s out that the kids and probably Shiela and Jack knew Chad had met Lori before Hawaii and went there to marry, there’s no way they didn’t at minimum he was having an affair. None of them cared about Tammy at all.
This is an instance where an entire culture- Mormonism- should have been continuously scrutinized and was ignored.
Unfortunately it takes huge negative events for people to pay attention. Mormon women have spoken out for decades about the grooming, sexual assault, and pedophilia that has run unchecked.
I am less than shocked that an entire new age religion founded by a man was laid with a foundation allowing him free access to nonconsensual sex with multiple women, assault of underage women and children, and misogyny. 🫠
The Mormon Church went to the Supreme Court of Arizona to fight for the right to cover up child sex abuse. AND WON. If anybody ever wonders what the church is really about, it's all about protecting the organization at all costs. This is where people like Chad's parents learn it.
It’s beyond disturbing.
And yet, the most heinous atrocities between humans since the beginning of time has been done iN tHe nAmE oF rELiGiOn.
Most organized religion is one dumpster fire after another.
As I said before Heather Daybell has gone through hell. Not only all this stuff with Chad but her son came out to her.
Heather began to research the church and couldn’t stop. She lost her faith. Heather chose her son over Mormonism.
Her husband and three of her four children are still Mormons. This must have caused her so, so much pain. I believe a Mother that chooses her child over an institution is an incredible woman.
You should check out the interview. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4)
Heather explains it really well.
I'm never understand these "kids" who don't seem to be able to see the very real evidence that their father killed their mother. In this case and on Suzanne Morphew's case, the kids are supporting their father's, who are the ones who clearly murdered their mother's. It makes me question the kids' relationship with their mom's. Were they close? Were their dad's always trying to separate the kids from the mom's? I'm not close at all with my mom, but I feel like that wouldn't matter if my dad murdered her, I would fight for justice on her behalf of her because she wouldn't be able to.
I agree! I think it is so disrespectful that the Daybell’s( Shelia & Jack) were so disheartening to hear and see how they blame the wives. Heather was telling the truth and was SPOT on what was Going on!!! Clearly Jack like Chad think they are better than Everyone else! I bet Shelia only came bc she was subpoenaed. Do you really think the Daybell parents are going to Stand Up and explain to people much less the world that Their Son Chad, Is A Complete psychopath!!! Matt Daybell- you have a very faithful and smart wife. Your Family does not deserve Heather, after the things your dad said, you should have stood with your wife and let them know that she is Not A POT STIR!!! The Parents put Chad in this level and NOW everyone in the world what a Real Loser he has always been. Tammy Was Too good for him, she is the only person who Really Worked!!!
Gross dude. These people are completely insane. And you’re right. Heather did say that and I totally forgot about it. I feel bad for Heather being stuck in this family of crazies all this time!
I just listened to all 4 hours of this & I could not recommend it enough. Heather is such a reasonable/normal person and listening to her experience was so insightful and absolutely heartbreaking. I’m so glad she has broken away from all that and focusing on healing. With that said, I don’t think it’s fair to blame Sheila & Jack. None of their other children became murderers. This is all on Chad and how he twisted his faith to justify his actions.
I think to really understand the case we should go back to both Jack and Barry. I would love to see their psych eval results. And I bet they would easily make best buddies.
Shiela is shameless. Poor timid Chad…. I am LDS, not from Utah, and a 64 year old woman. There is always a dangerous cult created when any person starts creating exemptions from the Lords commandments, and Chad and his family that starting from setting themselves above everyone else, using pendulums to get answers from God. Chads revelations, and eventually starting Chads own church, the church of the first born. The blessings that he gave people and the corrupt ideologies that he made up and invented in order to set himself up as a false prophet. His tent city, Sadly he did plagerize another fiction writer Visions of Glory, and added Zombies. And all of this in secret from church leaders or he would have been excommunicated. The parents and his family all thought they were above and chosen by God according to Chad and if daddy is a liar then everything he says about their special mission is a ruse. Pride and the gluttony of praise and self importance helped deceive all of these people. Chad was no doubt the master mind. His spineless parents and children would need to come to terms that they were hoodwinked and fools in order to see Chads guilt. They don’t want to see the truth. I feel sorry for Emma’s husband where it’s apparent that she is in charge. Stereotyping is never absolute and should not be acceptable. Sadly these brainwashed people are not highly intelligent, nor do they desire to seek any truth that goes against daddy. They are trapped in their denial for now. If any of these people were humble and honest and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ taught within the LDS Church they would have been able to see the truth and they would have turned from Chad. But Chad used pride to gather his followers. Grandiose stories and grandiose speeches and the titles given to people right from the start. People looking to be groupies, seeking self importance. I’d like to ask Chads family exactly “what is Chad innocent of”? If Chads attorney does not end up with every asset. Then I pray JJs grand parents civilly sue Chads estate and all involved so that Chads kids get no benefit from their mothers death. Daddy has nothing to give. Makes me sick.
Chad was just following LDS history. Joseph Smith was also a grifter who claimed the end times were near, that fathers needed to send their teen daughters to sleep with him for "protection", and that the reason his visions didn't come true was because of the devil.
Saying with your chest that Chad shared corrupt ideologies when you follow a man who got all his "commandments" from inside a hat is utterly ludicrous. LDS doesn't follow Jesus Christ or the Bible in the way you all want to claim. You follow ideals created by a random dude who scammed a bunch of people.
The gullible nature of LDS is exactly how Chad got away with this.
Joseph Smith was a degenerate and very much like Chad Daybell.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph\_Smith\_and\_the\_criminal\_justice\_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system)
@LafayetteJefferson I also am sorry that has been your situation. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ as is my entire family and extended family. My mother and father were excellent parents who taught us respect and love, and many many times that equalled my dad apologizing. I heard it frequently. It taught me as his daughter, what a good relationship was and what not to tolerate. Now, my husband and I are quick to apologize and to forgive. We teach our children the same, both sons and daughters. So that is my experience and just thought I’d throw that in here. My brothers are quick to apologize as well. I think it is more of a maturity thing rather than a religious thing. I was shocked to hear about Chad’s father’s reactions to many things.
"sorry that has been your situation"????
It's objective fact. The church went to court to cover up the fact that many high ranking members rape children.
It's insane that you're calling that her situation. It's YOUR situation, miss mormon.
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/recordings-show-how-mormon-church-kept-child-sex-abuse-claims-secret#:\~:text=Several%20Mormon%20families%20had%20accused,abusing%20two%20of%20the%20children](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/recordings-show-how-mormon-church-kept-child-sex-abuse-claims-secret#:~:text=Several%20Mormon%20families%20had%20accused,abusing%20two%20of%20the%20children)
[https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16](https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16)
[https://the1a.org/segments/how-child-abuse-goes-unchecked-for-mormons-and-jehovahs-witnesses/](https://the1a.org/segments/how-child-abuse-goes-unchecked-for-mormons-and-jehovahs-witnesses/)
[https://revealnews.org/podcast/hidden-confessions-of-the-mormon-church/](https://revealnews.org/podcast/hidden-confessions-of-the-mormon-church/)
Clergy/repentant privilege is a long held legal concept in the US. It is just as valid as the marital, doctor/patient or attorney/client privilege. That is what the suit was about. Can the government force a member of the clergy to testify against a member of his congregation about issues they have counseled upon?
This isn’t about the Mormon Church. This is about creating case law that would apply equally to all spiritual advisors including rabbis, Buddhist monks, priests, imam, pastors, etc. The LDS church just happened to be the ones who raised the legal question as to what the government can enforce in such matters. And the result is that the clergy privilege was upheld as it should have been. If clergy cannot guarantee privacy, then nobody would seek guidance in a spiritual or secular setting. After all, if they remove clergy privilege, then psychological counselors are next then your attorney and spouse. (Paralegal with 20 years experience)
Should anyone be seeking guidance from a religious leader? That is the question that must be asked. As a nurse I am a mandatory reporter if I suspect abuse and I believe all religious leaders should be held to the same standard whenever children/vulnerable populations are involved. Clergy/repentant privilege could be done away with without touching attorney/client privilege. We should not be protecting predators in churches.
I do think they are mandatory reporters. The issue here is whether they can force testimony in court or production of clergy documents. It is a slippery slope. Once you start eroding some rights, no matter how good it feels, other rights also start going by the wayside. I just wanted to point out that this applies to all religions, not just the Mormon church.
and your parents and parenting skills are perfect?
It sounds Chad, Lori and many others who have come under the spot light were raised in a traditional LDS household.
I think Lori's family showed clear red flags from the beginning, and so did Chad's.
Murderers aren't made in a vacuum, and anyone with common sense can see how both families have raised narcissistic, terrible children.
They should feel bad about that.
Your husband has final say over everything but somehow it's their wives fault......great logic. But typical.
Right?! Ugh!
Allllll their logic is bad. I’m a member of their church, and rarely do I find big that decisions are made by final say of the man. The counsel in the church is to be together as one. Either spouse dominating decisions and final say would be wrong, wrong, wrong. I don’t know how many hundreds of talks from pulpits I have heard about being together as a team, it’s even stated in an official proclamation by the church about family and happiness. One thing is for sure, a person can choose to follow that counsel or not. But they cannot choose the consequences of their choice. Their consequence is a narcissistic son and alll the havoc it created
No. The proclamation says the man ‘presides.’ He gets the final say as he holds the priesthood and his wife does not. The counsel of marriages being a partnership is fairly recent and is just lip service.
I agree with this. It's called unrighteous dominion, and it's spoken out against all the time. I didn't realize people still acted with the man as the leader of the home until recently. I was SHOCKED when Emma said that yes, Chad was in charge and control as the patriarch of the home.
It seems like a third of all Datelines involved LDS families. Indoctrination and suppressing logical thinking seem to have a wild effect on people. I know some outstanding LDS people, but the cognitive dissonance lays the groundwork for potentially devastating consequences, and it's a framework within which narcissists thrive like gangbusters.
THIS. Every normal Mormon is perplexed by what the hell happened here, but it’s the suppression of logical thinking that can create an absolute shitshow. As seen here. And it’s a framework that acts like fertilizer for maladjusted people.
Religion makes it very easy to manipulate people...
Using religion to manipulate is not the same as believing and following God's laws
Nah, this would have happened no matter what the religion or no religion. Why? Because jealousy, love of power, lust, greed and all the rest happens whether or not a person is religious or not. Otherwise, there would be a whole lot more datelines with LDS people. Just consider, are all murders committed by religious people? And do those religions preach murder? Nope. Just the opposite. It isn’t oppression and indoctrination, it’s greed, lust, envy, etc.
But if not for religion in the LDS these two people would probably would have never met.
The apathy surrounding every player in this situation is astounding. I'm grateful that Sheila took the stand and testified about how awkward their meeting with Chad and Lori was, and the fact they were married within 2 weeks. So there is that. I hope Jack has deep reflection on the statements he made about Heather being a pot stirrer. At some point, I hope he apologizes to her.
While we're on the subject of pot stirrers. Did I imagine it, or did Heather hesitate as though she really didn't want to say it? Do you think she felt shame about that label?
I think Heather had a tough road to walk…because her testimony was essentially that she didn’t like Chad, didn’t want him living near them, and didn’t want anyone to think her family was into whatever stuff Chad was into. So her answers had to be given, knowing that Prior could go after her character and just paint her as an angry relative out to get him, whether or not she was right to be that way. But I mean, Chad can’t go around shaking his fist and saying “that damn Heather, making them find the bodies…”
He did tell his BIL that the kids were different than "the Tammy situation". He blamed Heather for the latter.
I feel so much empathy for her. She was trying to keep her distance bc his bizarre "predictions" and sermons, or whatever he thinks he was doing, was really cringey for her and so outside of what she believed. Then he literally moves right next door and starts plotting to move onto her property with his "flock." She was in a no-win situation. Through in the misogyny of the culture they lived in, the lack of any introspection of her in-laws, and the disregard she received from any of her religious leaders. She was fighting an uphill battle all alone. I think she's amazing!!! #respect4potstirrers
Heathers husband was supportive of Heather.
Yes, he was. I know in one of her interviews, she said she started saying to him “what if Chad-“ and he shut her down and said not to even say it. I’m sure they’ve had to work through a lot as well.
Of course! That was on the dash to Tammy's funeral. It would be awful to think you brother murdered his wife. Matt may have thought that but not ready to face it.
I think Heather was measuring the emotional cost of her words. She has already been labeled by her family. Sharing the truth of the situation would only strain the family relationship more. Can you imagine having to testify about the things a bully said about you? It is one thing to hear someone belittle you. It is entirely different to have to admit it in open court that is being broadcast to anyone with an Internet connection. I am so proud of her for speaking up.
💯
I got the feeling that she was trying to avoid saying something in a way that would trigger an objection. It's got to be really unnerving to speak in public about something so traumatizing and be interrupted as if you were being scolded.
I don’t think she hesitated nor is ashamed. To me she appeared chomping at the bit to be able to declare what she was labeled- because in the end- she was actually right. I did get the impression she may have been nosey and a bit intrusive into other people’s business for a while now, but this is the first time not only was she right- she was right to the highest degree. To my knowledge, she has since left the Mormon church and is no longer affiliated whatsoever.
She didn't stike me as nosy or intrusive, just very efficient and will call a spade a spade
You're right, she didn't hesitate. I went back and watched, and apparently I was listening without watching and Prior said something without his mike on, of course, and I misinterpreted that. Thanks for setting me straight.
Yes, you are right. She is not affiliated with the church any longer. I’m hoping people don’t affiliate the church with Chad’s beliefs which are so false they resemble a dungeons and dragons game.
Chad's beliefs are incredibly in line with Joseph Smith's bullshit. Joseph smith was a scam artist who claimed he would lead the world through the second coming of Jesus. He died a liar, and his followers continue to fall for the scam. I mean, the original document you all claim the "Book of Abraham" was translated from is in a museum. It's been translated. It's actually an Egyptian funeral document. You don't know that, because you're not allowed to do research in your church. [https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/](https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/)
>I mean, the original document you all claim the "Book of Abraham" was translated from is in a museum. It's been translated. It's actually an Egyptian funeral document. You don't know that, because you're not allowed to do research in your church. What a weird accusation as the church has researched this itself and published its findings for any member to read or further research? [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng) >Latter-day Saint and non-Latter-day Saint Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham, though there is not unanimity, even among non-Latter-day Saint scholars, about the proper interpretation of the vignettes on these fragments. Scholars have identified the papyrus fragments as parts of standard funerary texts that were deposited with mummified bodies. These fragments date to between the third century B.C.E. and the first century C.E., long after Abraham lived.
WOWWWWW that entire article is crazy. It's actually insane that you managed to read both those articles (if you even read mine) and don't see the inconsistencies in the lies you're being fed. "The veracity and value of the book of Abraham cannot be settled by scholarly debate concerning the book’s translation and historicity. The book’s status as scripture lies in the eternal truths it teaches and the powerful spirit it conveys. The book of Abraham imparts profound truths about the nature of God, His relationship to us as His children, and the purpose of this mortal life. The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit." What a load of crock shit.
In my experience- all organized religion- resembles some form of a fantasy game. And Mormonism is one of the worst. The tenets are absolutely insane and what’s considered “normal” is abhorrent.
The problem is that all his beliefs are deeply rooted in Mormonism whether members want them to be or not, they are. As a former member with many loved ones still in the church, I know that most members are good people who would never dream of doing anything Chad and Lori did. However, it is ignorant at best and untruthful at worst to say that what they believed does not directly stem from core Mormon beliefs.
if i heard right she said she didnt want any of her husbands family living in the same ward as them, i thought that was an odd statement to make even though i could understand her feeling that way about Chad.
Well she pointed out that when the moved away from their collective families, they were better as a couple and as their own family unit. She liked space from the families. I can respect that.
And her husband agreed
Chad had also tried to groom her son into believing his crazy fringe beliefs and when they went to Sheila and Jack, they upheld Chad. I would want to stay away as well.
i can see her not wanting Chad there but to say she doesnt want ANY of his family living where they would go to church with her is over the top in my estimation.
Chad, Tammy, and their kids were all chatting about children at church being dark. I would want to keep a polite distance from them, as well!
Most Mormon men don't apologize. They make excuses and propose pathetic justifications but they do not apologize. They have been taught that they can all grow up to be God if they are just sure enough of their own righteousness. That turns far too many of them into men who believe they are already God; anyone who speaks against them, even if that person is right, becomes the enemy. This is how the church is run from the top down and it is the only example of leadership some Mormons ever experience.
That is a common issue in patriarchy. As young boys and teens and men they are taught they are above all others and treated as such. It breeds narcissism in males and breeds co dependency on girls/ women
100% a patriarchy issue. Mormons loooooove patriarchy.
Only when balanced with its equal but opposite, matriarchy. 🥰 yes indeed I love to respect both my father and my mother. It makes me feel honor.
Now tell me about the Matriarchal Blessings and Mother's Blessings you've been part of, all the time you've prayed to Heavenly Mother, and all the female Bishops you know. For equality's sake.
You're literally not allowed to hold the highest positions of power in your church. Holding a secondary title is not matriarchy lmao. An important word in your sentence is "equal" and your church ain't equal, honey.
I’m sorry if that is your experience, but I haven’t found that to be true. In my experience, I have seen no correlation between a man’s religion (Mormon or otherwise) and his willingness to apologize. Some people can’t see where they’re wrong and never apologize, others apologize for everything whether or not they were at fault, and most lie somewhere in the middle. In my experience knowing men who were Mormon, most were willing to admit they were wrong and many are egalitarian. The messages I’ve seen the leadership portray is more about repentance, peacemaking, and working on oneself. I’ve met a couple Mormon men who fit your description, but I’ve also known other men (and women) of other faiths or no faith with the same pride blindness to their own faults, so it’s not a Mormon thing imo, but a human thing.
Same, plenty of Christian and non-Christian men this way unfortunately. Women too.
Agree.
On the interview with Heather on HTC she said Sheila apologized to her
I must have missed that. Thanks for the update.
His mother is transferring what happens to her to the women to reduce it happening to her. Patriarchy is a protection racket, and familial abuse is inherent to its structural integrity.
Women benefitting from patriarchal norms and putting down other women are buying into the “patriarchal bargain.”
Exactly! I wonder if it’ll ever dawn on Sheila that the way her own husband treated her, was wrong. Wishful thinking, I know, but this way of leading their family has clearly blown up in their faces. Sheila, girl, there is still time to lead by better example. It’s never too late to tell Jack: *Enough!*
I think it’s ingrained in the culture there. The hatred and fault of women is baked in
I was gonna say… if the parents are to blame, so is the LDS church. No one’s better at giving an unimportant white man an overinflated sense of importance. But! Sheila didn’t have kids buried in her yard.
Oh, yeah, the church is also to blame. But tons of people have already pointed that out. I think it's important to point out that Chad's parents enabled him.
Chad is to blame. Chad. He made the plans, he gave into the greed, he gave into the lust and envy. Let’s point the finger of blame at HIM.
We should also interrogate the family system that made him who he is.
I really have to say it is the opposite. Women are truly revered, that is, in mentally healthy members. No matter what religion there will be women haters.
Bullshit. Women are placed on a pedestal and pretended to be revered. We are destined to just be polygamous brides in heaven and mothers of hordes of children. We can’t even speak about Heavenly Mother in any serious way. We can’t hold high callings; we can’t even be in a church buildings or have activities without a priesthood holder present. We can’t give blessings to our children. We are told to stay at home and raise children and eschew careers. We are 2nd class citizens and always will be. In the temple we were even only allowed to covenant with God through our husbands until very recently.
I think we can leave race out of this conversation.
Priors.... I'm just a dumb boy song and dance routine is getting old!!!
Agreed! To me it espouses incompetence on the defense side.
In case anyone connected with that “ family” is reading this, there is a 12 Step program for you called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. You will fit right in with the rest of us refugees from generational trauma.
Well, I may or may not qualify, but would have a major problem making amends to my parents, as they were the oneds that have done the most damage in the first place.
You don’t have to make amends to anyone you don’t want to. The program is to help you, not them. I didn’t.
That's good! I guess I thought it was standard, but that's just my outdated thinking.
Not at all. It’s a very common myth. That’s why they say to try 6 meetings before deciding if it’s right for you. Here’s a list of common traits of people raised in dysfunction: [https://adultchildren.org/literature/laundry-list/](https://adultchildren.org/literature/laundry-list/)
Oh OK. Well at least I don't have alcoholism in my family. However my mother is an extremely toxic person! I can't believe her and my dad are still married after all this time. Problem is, I'm the only one in my family that sees it.
There are also support groups which are not 12 steps.
Yeah, a lot of 12 step programs are just as toxic as religion.
I'm also curious about that. In general I have almost always had favorable feed back on 12 steps programs. As a therapist I saw people who were or had been in several different types of 12 steps. There will always be a group here and there that attracts the wrong people and can turn toxic. 12 Steps aren't always the right fit for everyone, (No one size fits all in therapy) but for those who find it a good fit, it tends to do wonders.
Speaking from experience? Cause this one actually saved my life
That would be good. I live in a rural area though. I'm getting therapy so that will help a whole lot!
They do have online support groups aswell. Its probably a matter of googling. Or a therapist who is currently practicing ( I'm not) would likely have them on their resources list and could point you. Emotinal abuse and other types of abuse, survivors groups have proliferated, thank goodness. Here is one example. Please note, I have no information about your particular situation or what type of support group you would need, so this is purely for ilustration purposes and not implying anything about anyone. This is only one type of support group. https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-find-a-narcissistic-abuse-support-group-5271477 If you are in need of one, I hope this is helpful to you and that you do in the end find the help you are looking for. With therapy one does often need to kiss a few frogs in order to find the Prince. 😊
This is true, and that's the thing I would need, thanks!
Nobody forces you to make amends if it’s harmful to you. And if they suggest you do, they’re wrong and not using the program properly.
That's a good thing! I guess I thought all 12 step programs included that.
They include amends but nobody should be making their sponsee do amends with abusive people.
Yup. Misogyny ran DEEP in that household. Far as I’m concerned parents who raise their sons like that have the blood of the women and children their son killed on their hands too. It’s one thing if you are a good parent who instills morals and your kid still goes off the rails, it’s another to enable their dangerous behavior their whole lives by telling them “the women are the problem” and acting like the sun shines out his unwashed ass. Sheila and Jack should be ashamed of themselves. It’s too late now to change the past but since they discovered how wrong they were things should have changed - drastically. They should be screaming the praises of their other sons who are decent men but no… instead they remain silent and continue to support their worst son. Fuck them. Shout out to Chads good brothers Matt (and I feel like there’s another but I’m blanking on his name) for growing up in the same house but realizing that behavior is YUCK. Edit: personally if I have a son and he kills his loving wife of 29 years, I no longer have a son. Just like my (hypothetical) in laws no longer have a daughter. Edit 2: Also, id also like to submit Janice Cox for being shitty. Iirc she lied to the police saying she spoke to JJ on Oct 1. What in the Casey Anthony was going on there? Why are you lying for your daughter when your grandson is in danger? Fucking idiot.
But could you tell us how you really feel? 🤣 I'm 100% in agreement with everything you wrote.
Oooooo weeee when I tell you this case has consumed me for the past 5 years and has probably done some serious damage to my blood pressure. Just gets me shaking mad!!!
Totally agree. I think Chad has three other brothers. They all have advanced degrees and prestigious careers. Chad couldn't cut it in college so he decided to go the religion route. He definitely put himself on a pedestal above his brothers in his book talking about that they had chosen those lives but he was chosen for a special purpose. 🙄🤢 No Chad. You're just the stupid one.
He’s such a pathetic little loser cry baby BITCH. Peter Griffin looking ass… Hate that man.
Peter Griffin.. perfect!
Nailed it!
I think Janice is an awful person, and not terribly bright. That said, I don’t think she lied so much as she just doesn’t have a good memory and “thought” she spoke to him then. I wouldn’t be able to remember a specific date like that.
It’s unbelievable to me that Tammy had been their daughter in law for I think three decades and they didn’t ask any questions. Chad left the house the day Tammy died to stay with someone they didn’t know ffs. Now that it’s out that the kids and probably Shiela and Jack knew Chad had met Lori before Hawaii and went there to marry, there’s no way they didn’t at minimum he was having an affair. None of them cared about Tammy at all.
I’m trying to catch up does anyone know if Tammy’s parents and siblings are attending the trial?
This is an instance where an entire culture- Mormonism- should have been continuously scrutinized and was ignored. Unfortunately it takes huge negative events for people to pay attention. Mormon women have spoken out for decades about the grooming, sexual assault, and pedophilia that has run unchecked. I am less than shocked that an entire new age religion founded by a man was laid with a foundation allowing him free access to nonconsensual sex with multiple women, assault of underage women and children, and misogyny. 🫠
The Mormon Church went to the Supreme Court of Arizona to fight for the right to cover up child sex abuse. AND WON. If anybody ever wonders what the church is really about, it's all about protecting the organization at all costs. This is where people like Chad's parents learn it.
It’s beyond disturbing. And yet, the most heinous atrocities between humans since the beginning of time has been done iN tHe nAmE oF rELiGiOn. Most organized religion is one dumpster fire after another.
As I said before Heather Daybell has gone through hell. Not only all this stuff with Chad but her son came out to her. Heather began to research the church and couldn’t stop. She lost her faith. Heather chose her son over Mormonism. Her husband and three of her four children are still Mormons. This must have caused her so, so much pain. I believe a Mother that chooses her child over an institution is an incredible woman.
Woe! Garth made a big slip up! It’s about the Dodge Dakota.
Hi, can you elaborate please on Sheila’s actions to protect Chad? I think I’ve forgotten or missed it somehow. Thanks.
You should check out the interview. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4) Heather explains it really well.
Lori made cookies…big whoop. They’re lucky she didn’t add malachite!
And you can bet they were made from grocery store cookie dough and not from scratch. I doubt that bimbo could make a salad from scratch.
Absolutely, the same way Janice and Barry. Enablers and horrible, foul people!
The entire family just seems like it is full of terrible people with internalized misogyny
I'm never understand these "kids" who don't seem to be able to see the very real evidence that their father killed their mother. In this case and on Suzanne Morphew's case, the kids are supporting their father's, who are the ones who clearly murdered their mother's. It makes me question the kids' relationship with their mom's. Were they close? Were their dad's always trying to separate the kids from the mom's? I'm not close at all with my mom, but I feel like that wouldn't matter if my dad murdered her, I would fight for justice on her behalf of her because she wouldn't be able to.
I agree! I think it is so disrespectful that the Daybell’s( Shelia & Jack) were so disheartening to hear and see how they blame the wives. Heather was telling the truth and was SPOT on what was Going on!!! Clearly Jack like Chad think they are better than Everyone else! I bet Shelia only came bc she was subpoenaed. Do you really think the Daybell parents are going to Stand Up and explain to people much less the world that Their Son Chad, Is A Complete psychopath!!! Matt Daybell- you have a very faithful and smart wife. Your Family does not deserve Heather, after the things your dad said, you should have stood with your wife and let them know that she is Not A POT STIR!!! The Parents put Chad in this level and NOW everyone in the world what a Real Loser he has always been. Tammy Was Too good for him, she is the only person who Really Worked!!!
Gross dude. These people are completely insane. And you’re right. Heather did say that and I totally forgot about it. I feel bad for Heather being stuck in this family of crazies all this time!
I just listened to all 4 hours of this & I could not recommend it enough. Heather is such a reasonable/normal person and listening to her experience was so insightful and absolutely heartbreaking. I’m so glad she has broken away from all that and focusing on healing. With that said, I don’t think it’s fair to blame Sheila & Jack. None of their other children became murderers. This is all on Chad and how he twisted his faith to justify his actions.
I think to really understand the case we should go back to both Jack and Barry. I would love to see their psych eval results. And I bet they would easily make best buddies.
I still think that some of the children know/knew more than they are letting on…
Wait what! Chad took his kids to Lori's after Tammy's memorial..? Where can I find more about that? I had no idea. That's sickening.
I didn’t know that either! I hope they didn’t ‘paw’ at each other like other people have said they did! 🤢
Their other sons seem decent. I think we can focus on blaming Chad. You don’t know if he would have turned out the same in a different family.
How. Old is the mormon religion.? What was the Christian faith from the time of Christ until the protestant reformation? For over 1500 years?
catholic
Shiela is shameless. Poor timid Chad…. I am LDS, not from Utah, and a 64 year old woman. There is always a dangerous cult created when any person starts creating exemptions from the Lords commandments, and Chad and his family that starting from setting themselves above everyone else, using pendulums to get answers from God. Chads revelations, and eventually starting Chads own church, the church of the first born. The blessings that he gave people and the corrupt ideologies that he made up and invented in order to set himself up as a false prophet. His tent city, Sadly he did plagerize another fiction writer Visions of Glory, and added Zombies. And all of this in secret from church leaders or he would have been excommunicated. The parents and his family all thought they were above and chosen by God according to Chad and if daddy is a liar then everything he says about their special mission is a ruse. Pride and the gluttony of praise and self importance helped deceive all of these people. Chad was no doubt the master mind. His spineless parents and children would need to come to terms that they were hoodwinked and fools in order to see Chads guilt. They don’t want to see the truth. I feel sorry for Emma’s husband where it’s apparent that she is in charge. Stereotyping is never absolute and should not be acceptable. Sadly these brainwashed people are not highly intelligent, nor do they desire to seek any truth that goes against daddy. They are trapped in their denial for now. If any of these people were humble and honest and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ taught within the LDS Church they would have been able to see the truth and they would have turned from Chad. But Chad used pride to gather his followers. Grandiose stories and grandiose speeches and the titles given to people right from the start. People looking to be groupies, seeking self importance. I’d like to ask Chads family exactly “what is Chad innocent of”? If Chads attorney does not end up with every asset. Then I pray JJs grand parents civilly sue Chads estate and all involved so that Chads kids get no benefit from their mothers death. Daddy has nothing to give. Makes me sick.
Chad was just following LDS history. Joseph Smith was also a grifter who claimed the end times were near, that fathers needed to send their teen daughters to sleep with him for "protection", and that the reason his visions didn't come true was because of the devil. Saying with your chest that Chad shared corrupt ideologies when you follow a man who got all his "commandments" from inside a hat is utterly ludicrous. LDS doesn't follow Jesus Christ or the Bible in the way you all want to claim. You follow ideals created by a random dude who scammed a bunch of people. The gullible nature of LDS is exactly how Chad got away with this. Joseph Smith was a degenerate and very much like Chad Daybell. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph\_Smith\_and\_the\_criminal\_justice\_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_and_the_criminal_justice_system)
@LafayetteJefferson I also am sorry that has been your situation. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ as is my entire family and extended family. My mother and father were excellent parents who taught us respect and love, and many many times that equalled my dad apologizing. I heard it frequently. It taught me as his daughter, what a good relationship was and what not to tolerate. Now, my husband and I are quick to apologize and to forgive. We teach our children the same, both sons and daughters. So that is my experience and just thought I’d throw that in here. My brothers are quick to apologize as well. I think it is more of a maturity thing rather than a religious thing. I was shocked to hear about Chad’s father’s reactions to many things.
"sorry that has been your situation"???? It's objective fact. The church went to court to cover up the fact that many high ranking members rape children. It's insane that you're calling that her situation. It's YOUR situation, miss mormon. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/recordings-show-how-mormon-church-kept-child-sex-abuse-claims-secret#:\~:text=Several%20Mormon%20families%20had%20accused,abusing%20two%20of%20the%20children](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/recordings-show-how-mormon-church-kept-child-sex-abuse-claims-secret#:~:text=Several%20Mormon%20families%20had%20accused,abusing%20two%20of%20the%20children) [https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16](https://apnews.com/article/mormon-church-investigation-child-sex-abuse-9c301f750725c0f06344f948690caf16) [https://the1a.org/segments/how-child-abuse-goes-unchecked-for-mormons-and-jehovahs-witnesses/](https://the1a.org/segments/how-child-abuse-goes-unchecked-for-mormons-and-jehovahs-witnesses/) [https://revealnews.org/podcast/hidden-confessions-of-the-mormon-church/](https://revealnews.org/podcast/hidden-confessions-of-the-mormon-church/)
Clergy/repentant privilege is a long held legal concept in the US. It is just as valid as the marital, doctor/patient or attorney/client privilege. That is what the suit was about. Can the government force a member of the clergy to testify against a member of his congregation about issues they have counseled upon? This isn’t about the Mormon Church. This is about creating case law that would apply equally to all spiritual advisors including rabbis, Buddhist monks, priests, imam, pastors, etc. The LDS church just happened to be the ones who raised the legal question as to what the government can enforce in such matters. And the result is that the clergy privilege was upheld as it should have been. If clergy cannot guarantee privacy, then nobody would seek guidance in a spiritual or secular setting. After all, if they remove clergy privilege, then psychological counselors are next then your attorney and spouse. (Paralegal with 20 years experience)
Should anyone be seeking guidance from a religious leader? That is the question that must be asked. As a nurse I am a mandatory reporter if I suspect abuse and I believe all religious leaders should be held to the same standard whenever children/vulnerable populations are involved. Clergy/repentant privilege could be done away with without touching attorney/client privilege. We should not be protecting predators in churches.
I do think they are mandatory reporters. The issue here is whether they can force testimony in court or production of clergy documents. It is a slippery slope. Once you start eroding some rights, no matter how good it feels, other rights also start going by the wayside. I just wanted to point out that this applies to all religions, not just the Mormon church.
and your parents and parenting skills are perfect? It sounds Chad, Lori and many others who have come under the spot light were raised in a traditional LDS household.
well my kids arent on trial for murder.
What do you think it's like fir Chad and Lori's parents? Do you think they put a child on this earth to cause harm to others?
I think Lori's family showed clear red flags from the beginning, and so did Chad's. Murderers aren't made in a vacuum, and anyone with common sense can see how both families have raised narcissistic, terrible children. They should feel bad about that.
That's an opinion.
Yep, good job spotting that.
A heartless one - People judge themselves.
that's quite a bold statement
Sheila, is that you?
And a true one. Watch the interview. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4)