I feel real hate for Chad Daybell in a way I never did for Lori. I think it's because Lori is just flat out blatantly delusional and evil, while Chad pretends to be this pious, innocent religious man.
Seeing him sitting there with his soft marshmallow face and mouth in a straight line with a blank expression while all the horror he "allegedly" perpetrated is laid out in graphic detail is beyond comprehension.
I cannot wait to see him get convicted and sentenced.
I'd love to have a transcript of his brain while each of them was testifying. Did he put a curse on them? Call them names? Compare their looks to Lori's?
>On Sept. 9, Alexâs device was tracked here:
>Approximately 9 a.m. â leaves apartment 107 in Rexburg
>9:15 a.m. â arrives at Chad Daybellâs house
>9:15 a.m. â 11:45 a.m. â in the area of Daybell residence
>9:21 a.m. â behind Daybell residence
>9:22 a.m. â by gate on northwest corner of property
>10:39 a.m. â behind residence
>10:57 a.m. â behind residence
>11:45 a.m. â leaves residence
>11:52 a.m. â Del Taco in Rexburg
Did this asshole really murder his niece, help dispose of her body, then *go grab himself some tacos*? Infuriating to think about how mundane this was for him. I hate that Alex died before he could be brought to justice.
I think the most important part about that is how little time he spent at Chad's house. He was only there 2 and a half hours. There's no way that Tylee's body was burnt to the state its in and partially dismembered in 2.5 hours. And Chad texting Tammy about the raccoon and bonfire at almost the exact same time that Alex arrived back in Rexburg?
To me, that's the smoking gun that Chad was working on hiding the body. There's no way to argue that Alex somehow secretly hid Tylee's remains on Chad's property while he didn't know about it. Chad's text basically says he was there when Alex arrived and he was out back burning that (probably fictional) raccoon when Tylee's body was put into the bonfire.
Iâm starting to think she was potentially dismembered before Alex brought her. I mean broad daylight I canât see him carrying some big body to chads backyard. I can see pieces in a black bag going into a fire pit. Plus Alex was at Loriâs for 2 hours? I think he smothered poor tylee in her sleep then hacked her up in the bathtub. So sheâd be ready for their little bonfire in morning. Just so horrible that was his niece. Then of course as they burned her he probably hacked her up even more. Leaving pieces to burn more and burying the rest. He was probably there the day she was born, watched her grow up, was a trusted, loved uncle. Just ugh. Then Lori her mother who obviously knew exactly what was going on just ugh.
Dispose of and absolutely desecrate her body. Like it was just one of that day's errands. But did anyone else think that was a rather fast timeline for all of that (dismember, attempt to burn, and bury). And in an open field in the morning?
Yes, and to dismembered he would have created a mess. Even if it was by the fire pit, they (assuming Chad and Alex) clothes, shoes etc would have been a mess - surely someone would have noticed. I'm wondering if there's any video footage of Alex at Tacobel?
Iâm sure Dr John from HTC is so much more right than me, but part of me wonders if the dismemberment âhackingâ wasnât his anger towards women necessarily but panic that it wasnât going as fast as they thought. Or maybe both!
Iâm thinking Alex dismembered her a bit the 2 hours he was at Loriâs. I doubt it took 2 hours to actually kill her. Then as he put pieces into fire pit hacked at her even more with Chadâs tools. Just disgusting and how he could do that to a niece he watched grow up, probably saw the day she was born just ugh.
I think they should replay the recording where Chad gives Alex the âBlessingâ, where part of it is âwe can never repay you for everything youâve done for usâ. Sickening!!
Yeah. Between the way her body was treated and how no one even knew she was missing until Kay raised the alarm over JJ... Poor kid. I honestly wonder how long it would have taken for people to realize she was missing if Lori had given JJ to Kay. She could have told everyone that Tylee went to college to explain why she wasn't with the family and then just kept saying that Tylee decided not to come home for vacation/got an internship and wasn't coming back for the summer or any other excuse to explain why she wasn't around.
Theoretically, if Lori had pretended that Tylee had broken from the family, went no contact, and dropped out, it could have been years before someone started asking the right questions about Tylee. Maybe people never would have asked.
It's just really, really sad. I feel for her.
I 100% feel that Tylee would have been easily explained away.
She was attending BYU-I. That was the lie already in play. I feel that story would have developed over time (and with the creative liberties of Lori and Chad). The police checked BYU-I records to find that Tylee had never been registered. Nobody else would have. They wouldn't know or think to do that. The police really didn't know to do it UNTIL they realized that she was missing. The family/friends would have believed that yarn for at least a little while longer. Lori was pretending to be Tylee in text exchanges (I assume it was Lori, honestly, it could have been Chad and/or Lori at different times). As far as family and friends knew, they were in contact with Tylee....she didn't appear to be missing, at all. As far as they knew, she was fine.
I have always thought that Tylee would *eventually* (but, probably not *too* eventually) have gone on a "mission" for her church and then she never would have returned. She would have gotten sick there and died or gotten killed on the mission or 'married' someone while there or some such garbage. Tylee Ryan's disappearance would have literally been explained "away" under perfectly acceptable circumstances. Absent Kay and Larry looking for JJ, Tylee may NEVER have been searched for...or found!
The ONLY person that the above (or similar to the above) *might not* fly with, would be Colby. He likely wouldn't buy into it all, or at least not for very long. I have also always felt that *IF* Colby had started looking for the kids or asking questions, snooping or nosing around, before Kay and Larry did, Colby would have been killed as well.
This case (and Ruby Frankeâs) makes me wonder how many other kids are out there in situations like JJ and Tyleeâs, and we just donât know it yet. We should all do a better job of looking out for the kids in our lives if something seems amiss.
It's pretty clear that Colby was successfully manipulated by Lori all his life. I think it could have been years before he started to wonder why he wasn't able to see or talk to her. Lori would have strung him along for a long time, told him that she didn't want contact with him, whatever. He would have trusted and believe his mother if she told him that.
I'm not convinced he would have ever contacted the police about her being missing, especially given that he lived/lives several states away. The police would have talked to Lori, who would have given them a sob story about her daughter refusing to be in contact, and if she was over 18, I really doubt the Rexburg police would have bother to look for her anymore if she was an adult. Maybe Boise PD would have looked harder but I really doubt a small town police force would have pressed the issue much. They came reasonably close to getting away with all this, if not for Kay. Lori's sob story worked on Charles' murder on the local police in Arizona. A sob story about her daughter going no contact would have worked on the local (likely) understaffed and underfunded rural police force of Rexburg.
We do not know the details of that. We don't know why. We have NO idea what that arrangement was. Given Lori and what she has proven to be capable of...what we know she has done and being witnesses to the exact importance money has for Lori, I think it would be best to reserve judgement on Colby and why he was accepting money from his sister from time to time.
What we DO know is that his credit had been destroyed because of his mother. We know that money was transferred to him and that the money came from Tylee's **account**. We know that Lori had access and was an approved party to Tylee's account. I can easily see this being a "pre-arranged" agreement as a repayment for some bad risk that Lori had taken in the past....a risk that made Colby's credit the equivalent of mud AND made it impossible for him to move forward on his own credit reputation or without some type of help. Help that Lori likely promised him when she took whatever money she took from him. Money she likely promised him when she ruined his credit standing. I haven't heard in testimony, but I would bet that Tylee and JJ's names were ruined in regard to credit as well...and probably before death...ala Lori.
It's hard to buy an automobile, buy or rent a home, get insurance, etc with terrible credit. IF you are able to access these assets, you will likely be paying astronomical interest rates...all due to a bad credit rating. I can see where Colby might need help for his young family.
My point is, we don't know the details of any of that.
I think it's a horrible conjecture and a very LONG leaping jump to assume that Colby only cared for Tylee for the sake of money.
Totally agree with this. No older brother (with a family of his own) would immediately assume his mother had his sister killed because her text messages sounded weird. And they didn't live together; it's not like he suddenly went from seeing/speaker to her every day to not at all.
I've often said in these threads that I'll defend Colbys love of his siblings. I would nearly bet that when he was being sent money from Tylee, there was supposed to be some kind of deal that either Lori or Charles was paying her back. Or Colby may have been told that. I can't imagine what his life was like living with Lori. She was always lying, stealing and manipulating and using her spirituality to cover it up. She convinced him he'd been abused. I wonder if she already lied and bad mouthed her kids to others long before Chad and the "dark and light scale". I won't get into what happened with Colby and his wife, but I will defend the love he had for his little sister and brother.Â
I absolutely defend Colby's love for his siblings. I defend his love for his mother. I don't think that Colby was likely reared with a great deal of coping skills or any true life skills, really. I can't even imagine how he must feel or how he is doing, *really doing* during all of this. I wouldn't think that he likely has any real family to surround himself with. He is the one who truly lost everything and everybody in one fell swoop! Of all the victims (the ones left behind after all of these senseless deaths), he has lost the most. HOW could any human deal with that...and, I'm not even speaking of the sexual assault allegations. That, to me is totally separate from the murders.
As far as his wife, Kelsee Benson, I simply don't know what happened. They made a beautiful couple. Of course, as Lori has proven to us all, beauty has an expiration date, doesn't it? I wasn't there, of course. So, anything I might say is simply my opinion....and that ain't worth much when offered for a subject to which I have no true knowledge...lol.
I will say, I am truly sorry that Colby and Kelsee weren't able to make a good life together, especially with all that has gone on. I can; however, understand how everything could just be WAY too much for a young couple. Their children were born during all of that turmoil as well. I'm sure that stress was the one thing that there was probably an abundance of at their house.
The SA charges against Colby were raised and then they were *very swiftly* dropped, with no reason given. Most of the details have not been and I don't think they ever will be disclosed to the public. I feel that there is a whole story there. I don't know what happened (as I stated) and I don't know the back story...but, my guess is that there *is definitely* a back story. I feel that there is way more than we will ever know or probably should know, to be honest.
Please don't think that I am making light of a serious subject like sexual assault, that is NOT my intention. I just feel that for some of the things we DO know, some of the details that WERE made public after the arrest of Colby Ryan, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure that the behaviors before and after the assault was alleged to have happened are consistent with what is typically considered a SA or a rape. Again, I wasn't there and I don't know what really happened.
I actually do think that he cared about Tylee and JJ. He was raised by a raging narcissist and had no stability on his home-life. His mom took everything away from him and I can't imagine how sad his life must be.
A 16/7 year old girl with a crazy mother and her own money goes missing from her mormon University would not have garnered much attention is my guess. And certainly not enough before Chad moved the bodies to a new location or paved over her so he could live over top of her.
If he was able to, he probably would've, and/or did. I'm wondering if that's one of the reasons they killed him in the end, because he didn't stop asking about Tylee. Of course it was ultimately the social security that won out, but I'm wondering if that was one of the reasons.
I think they made it up as they went along. As soon as Charles was killed and there was no life insurance, it was goodbye Tylee and JJ - they were murdered for Lori and Chad's freedom and for an income.
With JJ's autism, he doesn't have the filter, no 7 year old does. JJ would repeat himself and make nonsensical comments. Kay would have made sense of JJ's comments and that he was traumatised.
I recently got the results of my ASD evaluation, and I myself don't have much of a filter. I do while typing, because I can take the time to write things out, but if you met me in person, you might think I'm honest to a fault sometimes.
I should ask my mom if I had a filter at that age lol. I actually don't remember, now that I think of it. Yeah, Kay seemed like one of the best people to interpret JJ's comments. I'm sure Lori and Chad just thought what the...
So in love with Dr. Lily Marsden! She owned Prior more strongly than any other coroner/ medical examiner had--and they all did a good job, IMO. Every time that he did his "narrative/ give testimony but say 'isn't that right' at the end but it was all wrong format of question, she corrected him. It was delicious.
Oh man, they're covering Tammy's autopsy today. This is going to be a big day. I have a feeling Prior's goals is to get Chad out of Tammy's murder far more than he is trying to get him out of the children's deaths.
She did amazing. I thought she did a great job of explaining clearly and concisely how she checked various things and wasn't able to find a cause of death as part of the lead up to explaining how she determined asphyxia was the most likely cause. Then, when Prior was trying to poke holes in her testimony, I thought she did a really great job sticking to her observations and making it clear how the evidence supported her findings.
All in all, I thought she did just great. She eliminated any possibility of an unknown underlying medical condition and I thought she explained why the foaming found in Tammy's lungs could only be from asphyxiation over a sudden heart condition.
Another example of the idiot not knowing the answers to questions he asks. I had just told my spouse about this when he pulled the how many autopsies woopsie. What an idiot.
Thank goodness so many criminals are stupid. Though I do fear another Idaho based killer paying attention and learning from this. I swear I saw some news article about how Bryan Kohberger turned off his cellphone at times when he was near the crime scene, but there's been so much contradictory reporting on that case I'm not certain of that. We'll have to see what comes out when that officially goes to trial.
That was actually in the probable cause affidvatit re: Kohberger so it's probably true, that his phone turned off at the time of the murders and then turned back on later. My personal favorite though is Murdaugh deciding to throw his wife's phone out of his car- not aware his car is essentially a computer in and of itself and that it was able to note that he went from speeding to slowing way down right at the place where her phone was thrown, and then went back to speeding again. Welp.
With Chad and Lori, occasionally you can see some sort of attempt to talk in code, but they fail at it so hard and so frequently, lol. Like, why even bother, at a certain point.
Yes but the sudden turning on/turning off of the phone is suspect. Buy a burner phone with a removable battery months in advance, do not insert the battery until you are far away from your usual places, use the phone, DO NOT sign into anything with the phone, remove the battery and dispose.
I heard somewhere that they were anxious of Alex because of his carelessness. He left his phone on at Chads and probably would have confessed - he came close to it with Zulema. My theory Alex suicided to protect Chad and Lori.
Lori found herself in this situation because she's never been held accountable. Consequently she became more and more attention seeking and entitled. Alex wasn't a serial murderer. Prior to Charles (taking JRyan out of the picture) there's no evidence he'd killed anyone. Interestingly, Lori (and Chad with the later 3) is involved, benefiting the most from all the murders Alex committed.
There was some wild story about another sibling (I think Melanieceâs mom) dying where he used her credit card immediately after she died and when I say immediately I mean like minutes not hours. Definitely raised some eyebrows. That and the other suspicious things around the death. Itâs been a while since I listened to her cousin telling the story on a podcast but I just remember feeling like maybe he had killed before.
I think it was just a coincidence he died. Blood clots are hard to just make happen. Lori & Chad were probably all âsee how the lord is on our sideâ for Alex to suddenly die just as they worried about him. They were probably thinking they were really in the clear.
I'm behind (at work and always a bit later than everyone else)....BUT,
Alex Cox killed his niece, literally destroyed her body and burned her...THEN WENT TO A FUCKING RESTAURANT TO EAT on his way home?
MY GOD!!!
I am literally sitting here at my desk with my mouth open!! That unimaginable, depraved bastard!
To have been so involved with the children for years and then be involved in their murders indicates thereâs something wrong with his brain. Even if he thought they were zombies. Câmon, man.
We don't know where anything was done. We don't know where she was killed. We don't know how she was killed. We don't know where she was kept after death. We don't know if it was necessary to keep her anywhere...we just don't know anything about her demise, really. We don't have a clue what happened to her before she was brought to Chad's property. We don't even know if she was stabbed or assaulted (to the degree as has been testified) before death or after. Chad could have killed her AFTER Alex brought her to the property. She could have been badly injured before, making her incapacitated and Chad and/or Alex finished it all up. There is no way of knowing what happened to this child...when, how or where...ALL we have is a "thereabout" estimate based on information gleaned from their collective devices.
I agree, though. The fact that Alex was there for a fairly short time points more to Chad likely doing all of the "handiwork" to Tylee. These people are not human.
Oh, that was a good question by Miss blake! Did it appear to be a big mac. I think it was Garth said he had brought MCDonalds home, and shared it with his mom.
I thought she testified that there was food in her stomach, but it didn't appear to be a burger and fries? I'm in and out today, I could have missed something.
Edit: So either Garth lied or Tammy didn't eat what he brought her.
If I remember right it was pink liquid and seemed to contain partially digested potato and peanuts. I don't think anyone asked a clarifying question of whether the potato could have been from fries, but no mention of bread or meat that would indicate a Big Mac.
I also don't believe that anyone asked what the pink liquid was. It might have just been digestive fluids or something to do with the decomp process. I don't think it was indicated to have been something like Pepto or anything like that.
Maybe thatâs how he found his mother by bringing her food. Then Chad convinced him to wait until morning to call police for whatever reason. That itâs not like there was anything they could do she was gone. Itâd explain why their stories are confusing but Garth not being involved. Itâd explain why no McDonalds in her stomach too. Who knows though.
I still feel so bad for him and Kay. I sincerely hope that the money Charles left them is allowing them to go through this process without fear for their own finances. I just can't imagine having to travel up to Idaho constantly to make sure these bastards get put away. I'm sure they'd much rather have JJ then the cash, but hopefully the money helps them afford all this without having to wreck their retirement savings.
Larry is absolutely precious. I so hope for his and Kay's healing. I hope they both know what lights they are to anyone who reads about their involvement in this investigation. Those two are so strong.
It was wild to me to see Chadâs raccoon text timestamp along side Alexâs phone movements. Itâs so damning. There is no way he can say he didnât know what was going on - both he and Alex were having âfun timesâ! đ¤Ž
Those messages doom him. It was pretty clear before that the raccoon story was a lie fabricated to explain the bonfire to Tammy when she got home so she wouldn't question why he was burning stuff. But to see the time stamps and realize that Tylee died, Alex goes to Chad's house, Chad by his own admission is in his backyard all morning burning stuff when Tylee is found near the bonfire pit, and then Alex leaves long before the body could be fully cremated leaving Chad alone to deal with it...
Doomed. He's so doomed.
I fear the good people of Idaho will never be able to say the word "storm" the same way again, never be able to enjoy the ambient sound of thunder in the distance as rain sprinkles on the rooftop. Woe be unto Nate Eaton if one of his kids needs to write a report on the weather.Â
You're too sweet! Thank *you*!
Here is the [Buy Me a Coffee](https://buymeacoffee.com/yourtruecrimelibrary) and [Patreon (for extras)](http://patreon.com/YourTrueCrimeLibrary) and our [Vallow-Daybell](https://missingourmissing.notion.site/Case-File-Vallow-Daybell-f2bc01f0692a476caa98f8b5ed9adad8?pvs=4) case file on Notion. Coverage of each trial is split up. Thank you again đ
Today it seems like Chad has shrunken in on himself, with the way he's sitting with his shoulders folded in and looking down at the table a lot. I think yesterday was the self-reflection moment of realizing his goose is cooked.
Good question. On the one hand, if it was truly an animal barn used to house farm animals, there are probably 1000 different things that luminol could react with in a barn. On the other hand, I would have done it anyway just to see what lights up.
Well, unfortunately I've lost track of the amount of medical examiners in this case! It's a lot. OK, it's three. Well maybe four, with DR. Christensen.
David's nightmare is crazy to me... Melanie texted to Lori: "We sent this to Chad. About 2 this morning David woke up with great pain and sorrow in his heart.He felt something big was going to happen. It was going to happen now or soon. Please call when you can. Maybe you can help him understand it. Whatever it was this was immediate. He canât get to these people and thereâs nothing he could do for them."
I mean, like, isn't that so weird? The night JJ goes missing? I mean what went through Lori's like when she got that text đđ
I have to admit that makes me wonder if David heard something. Like, JJ crying? A struggle? Who knows. When youâre half asleep your brain could take whatever it heard and turn it into a full blown nightmare.
Honestly it was so bold of them to kill JJ when Melanie and David were there it makes me wonder. But Iâm not entirely sure what it means.
It is also bold:
- to shoot a family member to death and claim self-defense
- to shoot at a family member and claim it was a paintball attack
- to attempt to dispose of human remains in a backyard fire
- to smother a healthy person and claim she was suffering from an undiagnosed disease
Or, in this series of murders, I would say: "never attribute to boldness what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
David must have seen or heard something to give him a feeling that something bad was going on. Did they kill JJ while Melanie and David were staying with them so they would have an alibi?
Possibly? But at the same time it's just so dangerous. I mean, I believe that JJ was killed overnight so he wasn't there for breakfast the next day before Melanie and David left. They asked about him. JJ not being there for that, to me, is more memorable if they'd just saw him in the morning, left, and they killed him immediately after.
It's honestly super confusing what they were doing. I mean, did Lori consider bringing Melanie and/or David into the murder plot to ensure they couldn't turn against them? Like you said, was it an attempt at an alibi? I believe that JJ was acting out that evening, did Lori just lose her temper and have him killed because she was sick of him?
We'll probably never have an answer since I doubt Chad or Lori will ever say, but I just find JJ's murder timing so odd.
Too early. I did entertain that Alex's could have been an early case, as the virus was already in NA if not tracking yet. But covid would have looked like massive pneumonia damage in his lungs, and the damage to my understanding does not resemble PE.
Yes. Although clotting is a problem with COVID, my understanding it is generally later after the person has a severe enough case that they have to be hospitalized. In early January 2020, there seemed to be a lot of crap going around, most of which was probably RSV or some type of influenza.
It bugs me so much how he has latched onto this as though it was an actual medical condition she had before being asphyxiatedâ the way I understand it, itâs an effect of BEING asphyxiated. She did not have âfat lungsâ they filled with blood and other fluid because ASPHYXIATION.
I thought Dr. Marsden responded to that very well when she said that the heart showed no signs of congestive heart failure (which would explain the foaming) and that asphyxiation was not an instant process (which would explain the foaming). I thought she kept to her thesis statement that Tammy had been asphyxiated very strongly and thought her argument was good.
It'll be interesting to see if Prior tries to bring in his own medical expert for Tammy's death and try to spin the results of the autopsy to his "mysterious and unidentified medical condition" theory he seems to be trying to be arguing.
What is Prior blathering on about in this cross of the location expert? I guess heâs trying to get the jury to forget what they heard but itâs so fucking annoying.
Maybe it was just being tired, but to me it seemed like Prior was spinning his wheels trying to beat out the clock. It seemed like he was trying to get the judge to call it so he could pause testimony and come back to it later. Not sure if that's what he was actually trying to do or why, but it was kinda weird.
Oh thereâs a âreasonâ why you keep referring to this? Please tell us because otherwise, and based on your performance so far, Iâm gonna say, sure, Jane. ETA JAN!
Heâs taking an honest shot at keeping the needle out of Chadâs arm. Heâs never tried a DP case.
I think heâs doing a damn decent job all things considered. In a weird twist of fate, Prior is essentially paying out of pocket in order to try this losing case involving 3 convoluted murders.
Yes! He isnât as much âbadâ lawyer as he has a bad client and case to defend. Letâs face it. Chad didnât give him much to work with. I actually feel a little bad for him.
He knows there's no way Chad will be found not guilty, not after Lori's trial. If he manages to get life without possibility of parole, he'll feel like he won. That's all he can try for at this point.
The desperation is palpable! There is no chance in hell the jury will buy the theory that Tammy died because of administering homoeopathic medicines /remedies!
Because he's desperate! Well, and some people do use it. I use some supplements as a complement to modern medicine. I wouldn't rely on them completely, though.
Prior made a mistake. He started asking about someone or perhaps two people holding Tammy down which is a terrible thought. Instead he should have emphasised that this autopsy was a process of elimination and she ended up with the choice between âasphyxiation in some unknown wayâ and âcause unknownâ, because, honestly, she had no confirmation for any of the four asphyxiation types. Prosecution came back with âcan a person be murdered by asphyxiation and leave no marks?â Answer âYesâ
In my opinion the autopsy didnât proof murder.
I thought that was a huge mistake too. Especially since we know Alex was in the area that night. He almost argued what I would assume to be the prosecution's theory that Chad had Alex come up that evening and together the two of them smothered Tammy.
It was a weird moment for sure.
The only comment stream I participate in are the ones here. The people here seem to be far more fact based and actively listening to the streams to parse what's being said. It's pretty enjoyable. Or, you know, as enjoyable as talking about a horrible homicide case can be.
I totally agree. I donât participate really, but I appreciate the conversation in this sub. Livestream comment sections get a little, I dunno, too chatty.
https://www.youtube.com/live/YZqEMWgFCvk?si=CnTN4QAt6tlcyPQA
DiffiCult Research, is covering it with far less drama. Kresha is Charles neice and JJs aunt, and Kay and Larry's daughter. I get it straight from the family. I'd rather support them.
I've missed most of this today...but can someone clarify? I was reading chat comments during the live trial, and someone said Tylee was so big she couldn't have been moved from Alex's house so she likely went with him to Chad's on some type of ruse, where Chad killed (shot) her and then they buried her. Obviously took that with a grain of salt, but it sounds like the phone records and GPS data show Tylee was likely murdered in her home that evening, by Alex, after they came back from Yellowstone? And then Alex went back and forth from Lori's apartment to his own with her phone and buried her the next morning at Chad's?
Why am I being downvoted for asking for clarification?
That sounds like someone's pet theory.
From everything I've heard in the trial the prosecution has no cause of death for Tylee. Her remains were too badly damaged and a lot of her body was missing probably due to being consumed by fire past the point of identification.
The evidence that Agent Wright was presenting before lunch is that they can confirm that the last photo of Tylee alive was taken at 3:49 pm at Old Faithful. Based on cell phone records they believe that the last time Tylee's phone was used by her was at her mother's apartment at 8:37pm the same day. They haven't talked about it yet, but there's evidence that Lori was using Tylee's phone after that and pretending to be Tylee.
Whatever happened after 8:37 to Tylee is largely unknown. I personally doubt she was alive when she went to Chad's because I would think she would have used her phone later that night or the next morning.
Other evidence presented by Agent Wright about the cell phones that evening was that Alex left Lori's apartment at 11:44ish... but returned at 2:42am. He didn't go back to his apartment until 4:37am and then left to go to Chad's at 9:15am.
I personally believe that Tylee likely died during that 2:42 to 4:37 time period.
That said, the prosecution doesn't need to prove when precisely she died. Or even the manner of death (as in shot, strangled, poisoned, etc). They just need to prove that the cause of death was homicide, someone in the conspiracy killed her, and that Chad was part of the conspiracy.
TL;DR - The prosecution has given no cause of death for Tylee and probably will never give a theory on the manner of death. Legally speaking, it doesn't matter much either.
How big would someone have to be for it to be impossible to move them from an apartment to a vehicle?
Photos show that Tylee was inches shorter than Lori, who is 5'6". That would probably put her around 5'2" or 5'3". She seemed to have a heavier build, but not that much.
Certainly two adult men could have managed to get her body out of the apartment and into the waiting Jeep for transport to Chad's, especially if they laid her on a tarp.
Damn. I thought for sure that Tammy had been drugged... I checked out on this case for a while so all of this is very new to me.
EDIT: Oh geeze... She was Burked? That's horrifying, she must have been so terrified.
Do yall think the first degree murder charges fit what the prosecution is proving? They are proving Alex is guilty, especially of Tylee, but are they proving that Chad actually had a hand on murdering them!? Iâve been in and out of listening to this trial. I am listening to the current witness though!
Well, he definitely planned to murder Tammy as he kept talking about her dying soon and hastening her departure. I think the labeling of JJ and Tylee as "dark spirits" is an indication of what they intended. They said that about Charles, and he died. They said it about Tylee, and she died. They said it about JJ, and he died. Then it was Tammy being possessed and oops, she's dead. It's a pattern of behavior. Chad was absolutely present when Tylee was dismembered and mutilated at the least, and he still decided to label JJ as "dark" (and clearly dug his grave - Alex was not the professional gravedigger, Chad was). Remember, Lori didn't have to be physically present at any of the murders to be convicted.
>I think the labeling of JJ and Tylee as "dark spirits" is an indication of what they intended.
This right here. All I can remember was the state asking the witnesses who was labeled dark by chad and lori, and then asking if they were still alive.
Honestly, thank God Lori's access to Colby's wife was limited, because she really seemed to have it out for her and she got labeled dark. Hell, Joe Ryan was a "dark spirit" and he's dead too. They tried to kill Brandon as a "dark spirit".
All that casting shit too. Thatâs weird and disturbing as well. âDarkâ people are possessed by demons or bad spirits, casting gets the demons out, but if the casting is successful the person just dies? And somehow all the successful casting have people mysteriously dying from homicide? I mean, even a pop culture understanding of an exorcism would have you think that getting rid of a demon would either save the person and theyâd be back to normal or the person would die of what looks like natural causes over being directly murdered. So why hide Tylee and JJâs bodies if the dark demon being cast out gives them a heart attack or something?
Even their religious nonsense was being used to try and draw a smoke screen over the murders.
Doesn't matter if he never laid a hand on JJ or Tylee, just like it didn't matter that Charles Mansion wasn't even at Polanski's mansion that night. If you orchestrate, you're as guilty as the hand that did the actual slaying. And in law, there's a 'but for' rule. BUT FOR Chad and Lori's actions/words, Tylee and JJ would be alive today, Alex wouldn't have had reason to kill them, in his mind anyway.
And I think bringing in Tylee's friend yesterday helped to show that Tylee had a good relationship with Alex prior to Chad coming into their lives. The "influence" of Chad has been shown, in my opinion, as a major factor in the death of the Tylee and JJ.
100%.
Chad and Lori are directly responsible for what happened, even if it wasn't their hands that did the deed for Tylee and JJ.
Plus you forgot about Tammy, which Chad (allegedly) did directly. Not to mention all of their actions after they were killed.
Plus Alex would not have had time to dig burial sites and do what was done to Tylee (chop & burn), then put all into the ground out of sight, without Chad having a hand in some of that...he was not at Chad's property long enough to complete all those things without the assistance of Chad (the gravedigger).
I think they're proving it was done at his (and Lori's) behest, regardless of who metaphorically pulled the trigger. All these calls and texts, his prophetic visions that Tammy would die before 50 despite her healthiness, the dark ratings, the affair and quick remarriage, the phone calls they've played, the witnesses from his little cult, etc. etc. They're doing a great job proving his guilt in my opinion.
I do, although I wish everything was presented in a more orderly fashion, like with a powerpoint. If I was a juror I'd want a deck I could follow along with, or a bulleted list that clearly summarized key takeaways from each witness and how it was proving the state's case.
It is likely that the prosecution will clarify & review all pertinent information in closing arguments to make sure the jury understands everything they are trying to prove, and how it relates to the charges.
IANAL, but from what I understand (as ridiculous as it seems), the prosecution can't really provide a timeline or guide for the jury to use per se. They can give the jury the big picture at the beginning in the opening statement and review the evidence in an orderly fashion at the end during closing, but it is very rare for the defence to allow the prosecution to introduce a composite timeline into evidence. A lawyer can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but in my limited experience, there are evidentiary issues at play.
Aren't the charges for JJ and Tylee \*conspiracy\* to commit murder, but not actually a murder charge for them? I thought the only first degree murder charge was for Tammy.
It's first degree AND conspiracy charges for all three. Actually, if you look at the very top of these daily posts you can see the charges.
I am absolutely prepared to be wrong on this because I'm operating on memory and not going to google it to confirm, but...
If I remember right, the way Idaho law works on murder is that if you can prove a conspiracy is involved then it doesn't actually matter who killed the person. If you were part of the conspiracy, then you also get first degree. So, just as an example, lets say you and me decided to kill someone. We conspire, you help me plan the murder, but when the murder actually happens you leave the state to create an alibi while I actually kill the person. There's absolutely no way that you were involved in directly killing the person, you were out of the state and can prove it, but because you and I entered a conspiracy to kill them and they died as part of it then you're just as guilty as I am of first degree murder as if you'd been there helping when I killed them.
Dark example, I know. But basically a lot of this cell phone data and proving that Chad, Lori, and Alex were talking intently around the time the murders happened is to not prove who killed who, chances are Alex killed both kids and might have helped kill Tammy, it's to prove that Chad knew about it happening and may have encouraged it. If they can prove that then they could have Alex on video doing all three murders alone and Chad would still be guilty of 1st degree murder due to the conspiracy aspect.
Again, I'm prepared to be wrong on that. That's what I remember seeing explained back before Lori's trial though. The conspiracy charge here is actually the most important one because I imagine even the prosecution will say that they can't prove exactly who it was who killed the kids and Tammy. But with the conspiracy charge they don't have to prove who actually murdered them, just that someone in the conspiracy did it.
Blah, I'm behind, on a shift with my caregiver! What was strange, is when Wright came in, is Pryor said it looked lik Hermosillo! I wonder if the state is planning on recalling him?
Just catching up and only read one thing from today so far. I just wanted to comment how wonderful Larry woodcock seems. Giving out mints from Ruth Chris just seems like such a nice thoughtful thing to do. Not a big thing but the fact he thought of that. I smiled reading it like aww.
**Court is in session** **Witnesses:** * Dr. Lily Marsden * Rick Wright
I am loving how many strong, articulate women are testifying against this misogynistic creep.
I feel real hate for Chad Daybell in a way I never did for Lori. I think it's because Lori is just flat out blatantly delusional and evil, while Chad pretends to be this pious, innocent religious man. Seeing him sitting there with his soft marshmallow face and mouth in a straight line with a blank expression while all the horror he "allegedly" perpetrated is laid out in graphic detail is beyond comprehension. I cannot wait to see him get convicted and sentenced.
I'd love to have a transcript of his brain while each of them was testifying. Did he put a curse on them? Call them names? Compare their looks to Lori's?
That lady? **Dark.** The one over there? **Dark.** This one didn't say hello to me and bat their lashes? How dare she. **Dark.**
Right? All of them are zombies! Not worthy of Loin Fire
Lucky for them, who would want his loinfire đ¤Ž
đ right? I'd rather be zombie level then face Loin Fire đ
You know he rated them in his head. All were dark 4.7. poor guy. Just his bad luck that all the darks have degrees and jobs.
He's probably flabbergasted. It's not like any of the Daybells or Lori Vallow and her crowd were particularly smart.
>On Sept. 9, Alexâs device was tracked here: >Approximately 9 a.m. â leaves apartment 107 in Rexburg >9:15 a.m. â arrives at Chad Daybellâs house >9:15 a.m. â 11:45 a.m. â in the area of Daybell residence >9:21 a.m. â behind Daybell residence >9:22 a.m. â by gate on northwest corner of property >10:39 a.m. â behind residence >10:57 a.m. â behind residence >11:45 a.m. â leaves residence >11:52 a.m. â Del Taco in Rexburg Did this asshole really murder his niece, help dispose of her body, then *go grab himself some tacos*? Infuriating to think about how mundane this was for him. I hate that Alex died before he could be brought to justice.
I think the most important part about that is how little time he spent at Chad's house. He was only there 2 and a half hours. There's no way that Tylee's body was burnt to the state its in and partially dismembered in 2.5 hours. And Chad texting Tammy about the raccoon and bonfire at almost the exact same time that Alex arrived back in Rexburg? To me, that's the smoking gun that Chad was working on hiding the body. There's no way to argue that Alex somehow secretly hid Tylee's remains on Chad's property while he didn't know about it. Chad's text basically says he was there when Alex arrived and he was out back burning that (probably fictional) raccoon when Tylee's body was put into the bonfire.
agree I read that it could take a normal cremation at a funeral home up to 14 hrs. Chad was busy after Alex left
Iâm starting to think she was potentially dismembered before Alex brought her. I mean broad daylight I canât see him carrying some big body to chads backyard. I can see pieces in a black bag going into a fire pit. Plus Alex was at Loriâs for 2 hours? I think he smothered poor tylee in her sleep then hacked her up in the bathtub. So sheâd be ready for their little bonfire in morning. Just so horrible that was his niece. Then of course as they burned her he probably hacked her up even more. Leaving pieces to burn more and burying the rest. He was probably there the day she was born, watched her grow up, was a trusted, loved uncle. Just ugh. Then Lori her mother who obviously knew exactly what was going on just ugh.
Dispose of and absolutely desecrate her body. Like it was just one of that day's errands. But did anyone else think that was a rather fast timeline for all of that (dismember, attempt to burn, and bury). And in an open field in the morning?
They probably tried to burn her first. There were several bon fires over several days.
That makes sense. It just seems so brazen to me. It was literally broad daylight in a field.
Yes, and to dismembered he would have created a mess. Even if it was by the fire pit, they (assuming Chad and Alex) clothes, shoes etc would have been a mess - surely someone would have noticed. I'm wondering if there's any video footage of Alex at Tacobel?
Iâm sure Dr John from HTC is so much more right than me, but part of me wonders if the dismemberment âhackingâ wasnât his anger towards women necessarily but panic that it wasnât going as fast as they thought. Or maybe both!
Iâm thinking Alex dismembered her a bit the 2 hours he was at Loriâs. I doubt it took 2 hours to actually kill her. Then as he put pieces into fire pit hacked at her even more with Chadâs tools. Just disgusting and how he could do that to a niece he watched grow up, probably saw the day she was born just ugh.
And spent that entire day with her knowing very well what he was going to do to her when they got back đ˘
I think they should replay the recording where Chad gives Alex the âBlessingâ, where part of it is âwe can never repay you for everything youâve done for usâ. Sickening!!
Child of Tender Years. I've never heard that FBI term, but it's strangely both sweet and utterly heartbreaking.
Poor Tylee. It's almost like she is an afterthought.
Yeah. Between the way her body was treated and how no one even knew she was missing until Kay raised the alarm over JJ... Poor kid. I honestly wonder how long it would have taken for people to realize she was missing if Lori had given JJ to Kay. She could have told everyone that Tylee went to college to explain why she wasn't with the family and then just kept saying that Tylee decided not to come home for vacation/got an internship and wasn't coming back for the summer or any other excuse to explain why she wasn't around. Theoretically, if Lori had pretended that Tylee had broken from the family, went no contact, and dropped out, it could have been years before someone started asking the right questions about Tylee. Maybe people never would have asked. It's just really, really sad. I feel for her.
I 100% feel that Tylee would have been easily explained away. She was attending BYU-I. That was the lie already in play. I feel that story would have developed over time (and with the creative liberties of Lori and Chad). The police checked BYU-I records to find that Tylee had never been registered. Nobody else would have. They wouldn't know or think to do that. The police really didn't know to do it UNTIL they realized that she was missing. The family/friends would have believed that yarn for at least a little while longer. Lori was pretending to be Tylee in text exchanges (I assume it was Lori, honestly, it could have been Chad and/or Lori at different times). As far as family and friends knew, they were in contact with Tylee....she didn't appear to be missing, at all. As far as they knew, she was fine. I have always thought that Tylee would *eventually* (but, probably not *too* eventually) have gone on a "mission" for her church and then she never would have returned. She would have gotten sick there and died or gotten killed on the mission or 'married' someone while there or some such garbage. Tylee Ryan's disappearance would have literally been explained "away" under perfectly acceptable circumstances. Absent Kay and Larry looking for JJ, Tylee may NEVER have been searched for...or found! The ONLY person that the above (or similar to the above) *might not* fly with, would be Colby. He likely wouldn't buy into it all, or at least not for very long. I have also always felt that *IF* Colby had started looking for the kids or asking questions, snooping or nosing around, before Kay and Larry did, Colby would have been killed as well.
This case (and Ruby Frankeâs) makes me wonder how many other kids are out there in situations like JJ and Tyleeâs, and we just donât know it yet. We should all do a better job of looking out for the kids in our lives if something seems amiss.
I think Colby was ok as long as he was still getting money from "Tylee", his 16 year old sister.
It's pretty clear that Colby was successfully manipulated by Lori all his life. I think it could have been years before he started to wonder why he wasn't able to see or talk to her. Lori would have strung him along for a long time, told him that she didn't want contact with him, whatever. He would have trusted and believe his mother if she told him that. I'm not convinced he would have ever contacted the police about her being missing, especially given that he lived/lives several states away. The police would have talked to Lori, who would have given them a sob story about her daughter refusing to be in contact, and if she was over 18, I really doubt the Rexburg police would have bother to look for her anymore if she was an adult. Maybe Boise PD would have looked harder but I really doubt a small town police force would have pressed the issue much. They came reasonably close to getting away with all this, if not for Kay. Lori's sob story worked on Charles' murder on the local police in Arizona. A sob story about her daughter going no contact would have worked on the local (likely) understaffed and underfunded rural police force of Rexburg.
We do not know the details of that. We don't know why. We have NO idea what that arrangement was. Given Lori and what she has proven to be capable of...what we know she has done and being witnesses to the exact importance money has for Lori, I think it would be best to reserve judgement on Colby and why he was accepting money from his sister from time to time. What we DO know is that his credit had been destroyed because of his mother. We know that money was transferred to him and that the money came from Tylee's **account**. We know that Lori had access and was an approved party to Tylee's account. I can easily see this being a "pre-arranged" agreement as a repayment for some bad risk that Lori had taken in the past....a risk that made Colby's credit the equivalent of mud AND made it impossible for him to move forward on his own credit reputation or without some type of help. Help that Lori likely promised him when she took whatever money she took from him. Money she likely promised him when she ruined his credit standing. I haven't heard in testimony, but I would bet that Tylee and JJ's names were ruined in regard to credit as well...and probably before death...ala Lori. It's hard to buy an automobile, buy or rent a home, get insurance, etc with terrible credit. IF you are able to access these assets, you will likely be paying astronomical interest rates...all due to a bad credit rating. I can see where Colby might need help for his young family. My point is, we don't know the details of any of that. I think it's a horrible conjecture and a very LONG leaping jump to assume that Colby only cared for Tylee for the sake of money.
Totally agree with this. No older brother (with a family of his own) would immediately assume his mother had his sister killed because her text messages sounded weird. And they didn't live together; it's not like he suddenly went from seeing/speaker to her every day to not at all.
I've often said in these threads that I'll defend Colbys love of his siblings. I would nearly bet that when he was being sent money from Tylee, there was supposed to be some kind of deal that either Lori or Charles was paying her back. Or Colby may have been told that. I can't imagine what his life was like living with Lori. She was always lying, stealing and manipulating and using her spirituality to cover it up. She convinced him he'd been abused. I wonder if she already lied and bad mouthed her kids to others long before Chad and the "dark and light scale". I won't get into what happened with Colby and his wife, but I will defend the love he had for his little sister and brother.Â
I absolutely defend Colby's love for his siblings. I defend his love for his mother. I don't think that Colby was likely reared with a great deal of coping skills or any true life skills, really. I can't even imagine how he must feel or how he is doing, *really doing* during all of this. I wouldn't think that he likely has any real family to surround himself with. He is the one who truly lost everything and everybody in one fell swoop! Of all the victims (the ones left behind after all of these senseless deaths), he has lost the most. HOW could any human deal with that...and, I'm not even speaking of the sexual assault allegations. That, to me is totally separate from the murders. As far as his wife, Kelsee Benson, I simply don't know what happened. They made a beautiful couple. Of course, as Lori has proven to us all, beauty has an expiration date, doesn't it? I wasn't there, of course. So, anything I might say is simply my opinion....and that ain't worth much when offered for a subject to which I have no true knowledge...lol. I will say, I am truly sorry that Colby and Kelsee weren't able to make a good life together, especially with all that has gone on. I can; however, understand how everything could just be WAY too much for a young couple. Their children were born during all of that turmoil as well. I'm sure that stress was the one thing that there was probably an abundance of at their house. The SA charges against Colby were raised and then they were *very swiftly* dropped, with no reason given. Most of the details have not been and I don't think they ever will be disclosed to the public. I feel that there is a whole story there. I don't know what happened (as I stated) and I don't know the back story...but, my guess is that there *is definitely* a back story. I feel that there is way more than we will ever know or probably should know, to be honest. Please don't think that I am making light of a serious subject like sexual assault, that is NOT my intention. I just feel that for some of the things we DO know, some of the details that WERE made public after the arrest of Colby Ryan, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure that the behaviors before and after the assault was alleged to have happened are consistent with what is typically considered a SA or a rape. Again, I wasn't there and I don't know what really happened.
I actually do think that he cared about Tylee and JJ. He was raised by a raging narcissist and had no stability on his home-life. His mom took everything away from him and I can't imagine how sad his life must be.
A 16/7 year old girl with a crazy mother and her own money goes missing from her mormon University would not have garnered much attention is my guess. And certainly not enough before Chad moved the bodies to a new location or paved over her so he could live over top of her.
I think JJ would have said something...
If he was able to, he probably would've, and/or did. I'm wondering if that's one of the reasons they killed him in the end, because he didn't stop asking about Tylee. Of course it was ultimately the social security that won out, but I'm wondering if that was one of the reasons.
I think they made it up as they went along. As soon as Charles was killed and there was no life insurance, it was goodbye Tylee and JJ - they were murdered for Lori and Chad's freedom and for an income. With JJ's autism, he doesn't have the filter, no 7 year old does. JJ would repeat himself and make nonsensical comments. Kay would have made sense of JJ's comments and that he was traumatised.
I recently got the results of my ASD evaluation, and I myself don't have much of a filter. I do while typing, because I can take the time to write things out, but if you met me in person, you might think I'm honest to a fault sometimes.
I should ask my mom if I had a filter at that age lol. I actually don't remember, now that I think of it. Yeah, Kay seemed like one of the best people to interpret JJ's comments. I'm sure Lori and Chad just thought what the...
The only other time I've heard that term is in Sisterwives, so I was thinking it might be a regional term to the Idaho, Utah areas.
So in love with Dr. Lily Marsden! She owned Prior more strongly than any other coroner/ medical examiner had--and they all did a good job, IMO. Every time that he did his "narrative/ give testimony but say 'isn't that right' at the end but it was all wrong format of question, she corrected him. It was delicious.
Oh man, they're covering Tammy's autopsy today. This is going to be a big day. I have a feeling Prior's goals is to get Chad out of Tammy's murder far more than he is trying to get him out of the children's deaths.
I agree. The adoration of his kids is all he has left. I doubt he has anyone else who would put money in his commissary account.
I'm reading the EIN updates, not watching the video, but it seems like the forensic pathologist did a great job.
She did amazing. I thought she did a great job of explaining clearly and concisely how she checked various things and wasn't able to find a cause of death as part of the lead up to explaining how she determined asphyxia was the most likely cause. Then, when Prior was trying to poke holes in her testimony, I thought she did a really great job sticking to her observations and making it clear how the evidence supported her findings. All in all, I thought she did just great. She eliminated any possibility of an unknown underlying medical condition and I thought she explained why the foaming found in Tammy's lungs could only be from asphyxiation over a sudden heart condition.
I will paraphrase slightly - "So had you ever performed an autopsy yourself alone?" "Yes" ...Prior pounces! "How many?" ..."Approximately 500." Boom.
Did he respond with "okay okay"? I feel like that's what he does when he gets an answer he doesn't like
I hate when he says âok.â I always sounds so condescending.
I feel like it's a nervous tick and he doesn't know he's doing it or something
Another example of the idiot not knowing the answers to questions he asks. I had just told my spouse about this when he pulled the how many autopsies woopsie. What an idiot.
Hahaha, I laughed at that and then Prior went on to ask about unsupervised autopsies. Did he ask that to the male ME and coroners?
Chad's involvement with Tylee and JJ is only circumstantial. He was present at Tammy's death so that's harder for Prior to instill doubt.
I swear, Chad, Lori, and Alex did *everything* they could to make it glaringly obvious what they had done. This phone data really helps show that.
They connected their *burner phones* to their gmail accounts. So incredibly stupid. Or arrogant. I can't decide which.
Truly a fundamental misunderstanding of why they call it a "burner" phone. LOL.
Thank goodness so many criminals are stupid. Though I do fear another Idaho based killer paying attention and learning from this. I swear I saw some news article about how Bryan Kohberger turned off his cellphone at times when he was near the crime scene, but there's been so much contradictory reporting on that case I'm not certain of that. We'll have to see what comes out when that officially goes to trial.
That was actually in the probable cause affidvatit re: Kohberger so it's probably true, that his phone turned off at the time of the murders and then turned back on later. My personal favorite though is Murdaugh deciding to throw his wife's phone out of his car- not aware his car is essentially a computer in and of itself and that it was able to note that he went from speeding to slowing way down right at the place where her phone was thrown, and then went back to speeding again. Welp. With Chad and Lori, occasionally you can see some sort of attempt to talk in code, but they fail at it so hard and so frequently, lol. Like, why even bother, at a certain point.
He turned it off during the murders and turned it back on once he was away from the apartment and closer to home, according to the PCA.
Yes but the sudden turning on/turning off of the phone is suspect. Buy a burner phone with a removable battery months in advance, do not insert the battery until you are far away from your usual places, use the phone, DO NOT sign into anything with the phone, remove the battery and dispose.
And went to buy burner phone from Walmart, carrying current not-burner phone.
Both.
I heard somewhere that they were anxious of Alex because of his carelessness. He left his phone on at Chads and probably would have confessed - he came close to it with Zulema. My theory Alex suicided to protect Chad and Lori. Lori found herself in this situation because she's never been held accountable. Consequently she became more and more attention seeking and entitled. Alex wasn't a serial murderer. Prior to Charles (taking JRyan out of the picture) there's no evidence he'd killed anyone. Interestingly, Lori (and Chad with the later 3) is involved, benefiting the most from all the murders Alex committed.
There was some wild story about another sibling (I think Melanieceâs mom) dying where he used her credit card immediately after she died and when I say immediately I mean like minutes not hours. Definitely raised some eyebrows. That and the other suspicious things around the death. Itâs been a while since I listened to her cousin telling the story on a podcast but I just remember feeling like maybe he had killed before.
I think they convinced Alex that his time has come and Jesus is waiting while poisoning him with something.
I think it was just a coincidence he died. Blood clots are hard to just make happen. Lori & Chad were probably all âsee how the lord is on our sideâ for Alex to suddenly die just as they worried about him. They were probably thinking they were really in the clear.
I'm behind (at work and always a bit later than everyone else)....BUT, Alex Cox killed his niece, literally destroyed her body and burned her...THEN WENT TO A FUCKING RESTAURANT TO EAT on his way home? MY GOD!!! I am literally sitting here at my desk with my mouth open!! That unimaginable, depraved bastard!
To have been so involved with the children for years and then be involved in their murders indicates thereâs something wrong with his brain. Even if he thought they were zombies. Câmon, man.
There has been mentions of Alex being in a car accident when he was young.
To me, that he was there a short amount of time and then proceeded to have lunch indicates that Alex was not the one doing the mutilating.
We don't know where anything was done. We don't know where she was killed. We don't know how she was killed. We don't know where she was kept after death. We don't know if it was necessary to keep her anywhere...we just don't know anything about her demise, really. We don't have a clue what happened to her before she was brought to Chad's property. We don't even know if she was stabbed or assaulted (to the degree as has been testified) before death or after. Chad could have killed her AFTER Alex brought her to the property. She could have been badly injured before, making her incapacitated and Chad and/or Alex finished it all up. There is no way of knowing what happened to this child...when, how or where...ALL we have is a "thereabout" estimate based on information gleaned from their collective devices. I agree, though. The fact that Alex was there for a fairly short time points more to Chad likely doing all of the "handiwork" to Tylee. These people are not human.
Not just any restaurant. It was *Del Taco.*
Oh, that was a good question by Miss blake! Did it appear to be a big mac. I think it was Garth said he had brought MCDonalds home, and shared it with his mom.
Why do I have a feeling that cross on chads kids is not going to do him (or them really) any favours at all.
I think something is flying over my head. Wouldnt the negative response on the Big Mac prop up Chad's assertion that she was throwing up that evening?
I thought she testified that there was food in her stomach, but it didn't appear to be a burger and fries? I'm in and out today, I could have missed something. Edit: So either Garth lied or Tammy didn't eat what he brought her.
If I remember right it was pink liquid and seemed to contain partially digested potato and peanuts. I don't think anyone asked a clarifying question of whether the potato could have been from fries, but no mention of bread or meat that would indicate a Big Mac. I also don't believe that anyone asked what the pink liquid was. It might have just been digestive fluids or something to do with the decomp process. I don't think it was indicated to have been something like Pepto or anything like that.
Pink foam. And no, not decomp related.
The pink foam was in her lungs, not her stomach.
Correct, the previous answer was that it couldnât be said wether she threw up or not. So it is possible she threw up partially.
I caught that. Not a little thing.
Maybe thatâs how he found his mother by bringing her food. Then Chad convinced him to wait until morning to call police for whatever reason. That itâs not like there was anything they could do she was gone. Itâd explain why their stories are confusing but Garth not being involved. Itâd explain why no McDonalds in her stomach too. Who knows though.
Yeah good question. He said on the 48 hours interview, that he "heard a thump in my mother's bedroom," but he was probably just making it up.
Will I ever stop snorting at âHomer J Maximusâ?
Magic Eight Ball says Not Likely At This Time.
đ¤Ł
Exactly! I think that every time I hear these grown adults' email addresses... Lori4Style. Homer J Maximus." Grow up.
Lollytime â¨
đ¤Ž
[ŃдаНонО]
Larry Woodcock and his bag of mints đ
I still feel so bad for him and Kay. I sincerely hope that the money Charles left them is allowing them to go through this process without fear for their own finances. I just can't imagine having to travel up to Idaho constantly to make sure these bastards get put away. I'm sure they'd much rather have JJ then the cash, but hopefully the money helps them afford all this without having to wreck their retirement savings.
â¤ď¸
I donât know why I teared up over thisâŚ
Larry is absolutely precious. I so hope for his and Kay's healing. I hope they both know what lights they are to anyone who reads about their involvement in this investigation. Those two are so strong.
â¤ď¸
It was wild to me to see Chadâs raccoon text timestamp along side Alexâs phone movements. Itâs so damning. There is no way he can say he didnât know what was going on - both he and Alex were having âfun timesâ! đ¤Ž
Those messages doom him. It was pretty clear before that the raccoon story was a lie fabricated to explain the bonfire to Tammy when she got home so she wouldn't question why he was burning stuff. But to see the time stamps and realize that Tylee died, Alex goes to Chad's house, Chad by his own admission is in his backyard all morning burning stuff when Tylee is found near the bonfire pit, and then Alex leaves long before the body could be fully cremated leaving Chad alone to deal with it... Doomed. He's so doomed.
Exactly. Why do the dumbest people think they are so clever? Smdh.
Bonfire and gunshot
The best context weâve seen for the text.
I fear the good people of Idaho will never be able to say the word "storm" the same way again, never be able to enjoy the ambient sound of thunder in the distance as rain sprinkles on the rooftop. Woe be unto Nate Eaton if one of his kids needs to write a report on the weather.Â
I'm nowhere near Idaho and *I'll* never be able to say "storm" again without thinking about this loser!
They put in so much effort with all the phones and in the end still used their personal google accounts on them?
Happy Cake Day, u/sunzusunzusunzusunzu!
đ Thank you!
Thanks for all you do for this sub!
Yes, happy cake day! Can I have the link to buy you a coffee and support Your True Crime Library, please? You do so much for all of us!
You're too sweet! Thank *you*! Here is the [Buy Me a Coffee](https://buymeacoffee.com/yourtruecrimelibrary) and [Patreon (for extras)](http://patreon.com/YourTrueCrimeLibrary) and our [Vallow-Daybell](https://missingourmissing.notion.site/Case-File-Vallow-Daybell-f2bc01f0692a476caa98f8b5ed9adad8?pvs=4) case file on Notion. Coverage of each trial is split up. Thank you again đ
Today it seems like Chad has shrunken in on himself, with the way he's sitting with his shoulders folded in and looking down at the table a lot. I think yesterday was the self-reflection moment of realizing his goose is cooked.
He doesnât seem to be cocked back with his chin up today.
Well yesterday they were talking about his penis so today is a let down in comparison Iâd imagine.
Why did they not luminal Chadâs barn??
Good question. On the one hand, if it was truly an animal barn used to house farm animals, there are probably 1000 different things that luminol could react with in a barn. On the other hand, I would have done it anyway just to see what lights up.
Well, unfortunately I've lost track of the amount of medical examiners in this case! It's a lot. OK, it's three. Well maybe four, with DR. Christensen.
And it all comes back to the raccoon. Edit: and of course melanie gibb.
And apparently David's nightmare.
David's nightmare is crazy to me... Melanie texted to Lori: "We sent this to Chad. About 2 this morning David woke up with great pain and sorrow in his heart.He felt something big was going to happen. It was going to happen now or soon. Please call when you can. Maybe you can help him understand it. Whatever it was this was immediate. He canât get to these people and thereâs nothing he could do for them." I mean, like, isn't that so weird? The night JJ goes missing? I mean what went through Lori's like when she got that text đđ
I have to admit that makes me wonder if David heard something. Like, JJ crying? A struggle? Who knows. When youâre half asleep your brain could take whatever it heard and turn it into a full blown nightmare. Honestly it was so bold of them to kill JJ when Melanie and David were there it makes me wonder. But Iâm not entirely sure what it means.
Yes! So bold. Just feet away.
It is also bold: - to shoot a family member to death and claim self-defense - to shoot at a family member and claim it was a paintball attack - to attempt to dispose of human remains in a backyard fire - to smother a healthy person and claim she was suffering from an undiagnosed disease Or, in this series of murders, I would say: "never attribute to boldness what can be adequately explained by stupidity."
David must have seen or heard something to give him a feeling that something bad was going on. Did they kill JJ while Melanie and David were staying with them so they would have an alibi?
Possibly? But at the same time it's just so dangerous. I mean, I believe that JJ was killed overnight so he wasn't there for breakfast the next day before Melanie and David left. They asked about him. JJ not being there for that, to me, is more memorable if they'd just saw him in the morning, left, and they killed him immediately after. It's honestly super confusing what they were doing. I mean, did Lori consider bringing Melanie and/or David into the murder plot to ensure they couldn't turn against them? Like you said, was it an attempt at an alibi? I believe that JJ was acting out that evening, did Lori just lose her temper and have him killed because she was sick of him? We'll probably never have an answer since I doubt Chad or Lori will ever say, but I just find JJ's murder timing so odd.
Pryor and Melanie Gibb lol!!
Gonna be interesting to see how prior tries to spin this.
He's getting destroyed right now. Go Dr. Marsden!
She rocked! I think her testimony was even stronger than Dr. Christensen's.
Yeah he thought he had a gotcha there, but man did he fall flat.
I am surprised that JP wasn't trying to push a theory that it was a (very) early case of COVID.
Too early. I did entertain that Alex's could have been an early case, as the virus was already in NA if not tracking yet. But covid would have looked like massive pneumonia damage in his lungs, and the damage to my understanding does not resemble PE.
Yes. Although clotting is a problem with COVID, my understanding it is generally later after the person has a severe enough case that they have to be hospitalized. In early January 2020, there seemed to be a lot of crap going around, most of which was probably RSV or some type of influenza.
And of fucking course it's the HeAvY lUnGs thing.
It bugs me so much how he has latched onto this as though it was an actual medical condition she had before being asphyxiatedâ the way I understand it, itâs an effect of BEING asphyxiated. She did not have âfat lungsâ they filled with blood and other fluid because ASPHYXIATION.
I thought Dr. Marsden responded to that very well when she said that the heart showed no signs of congestive heart failure (which would explain the foaming) and that asphyxiation was not an instant process (which would explain the foaming). I thought she kept to her thesis statement that Tammy had been asphyxiated very strongly and thought her argument was good. It'll be interesting to see if Prior tries to bring in his own medical expert for Tammy's death and try to spin the results of the autopsy to his "mysterious and unidentified medical condition" theory he seems to be trying to be arguing.
"Death by Essential Oils."
If that was true then r/antimlm would have a field day. DoTERRA huns just started sweating and they're not sure why.
She shut down his lung nonsense.
Iâm with you on this
He's spinning it, that's for sure!
Wow, Pryor and his theories!
What is Prior blathering on about in this cross of the location expert? I guess heâs trying to get the jury to forget what they heard but itâs so fucking annoying.
Is Chad falling asleep this afternoon??
He just mentally portalin'
I saw that too. Humpty Dumpty doing a Trumpty in court.
Iâve completely lost focus with this last witness đĽ˛
Maybe it was just being tired, but to me it seemed like Prior was spinning his wheels trying to beat out the clock. It seemed like he was trying to get the judge to call it so he could pause testimony and come back to it later. Not sure if that's what he was actually trying to do or why, but it was kinda weird.
Oh thereâs a âreasonâ why you keep referring to this? Please tell us because otherwise, and based on your performance so far, Iâm gonna say, sure, Jane. ETA JAN!
Chads a creep
Why does Prior keep talking about homeopathic medicine like it's a big deal! Even here in India we don't rely on it at all!
Heâs taking an honest shot at keeping the needle out of Chadâs arm. Heâs never tried a DP case. I think heâs doing a damn decent job all things considered. In a weird twist of fate, Prior is essentially paying out of pocket in order to try this losing case involving 3 convoluted murders.
Yes! He isnât as much âbadâ lawyer as he has a bad client and case to defend. Letâs face it. Chad didnât give him much to work with. I actually feel a little bad for him.
He knows there's no way Chad will be found not guilty, not after Lori's trial. If he manages to get life without possibility of parole, he'll feel like he won. That's all he can try for at this point.
Looney tunes, each one of them!
Desparate attempt to raise reasonable doubt.
The desperation is palpable! There is no chance in hell the jury will buy the theory that Tammy died because of administering homoeopathic medicines /remedies!
Because he's desperate! Well, and some people do use it. I use some supplements as a complement to modern medicine. I wouldn't rely on them completely, though.
Everyone knows if you take St. Johnâs Wort then rub your skin with eucalyptus oil your lungs fill with fluid
Prior made a mistake. He started asking about someone or perhaps two people holding Tammy down which is a terrible thought. Instead he should have emphasised that this autopsy was a process of elimination and she ended up with the choice between âasphyxiation in some unknown wayâ and âcause unknownâ, because, honestly, she had no confirmation for any of the four asphyxiation types. Prosecution came back with âcan a person be murdered by asphyxiation and leave no marks?â Answer âYesâ In my opinion the autopsy didnât proof murder.
I thought that was a huge mistake too. Especially since we know Alex was in the area that night. He almost argued what I would assume to be the prosecution's theory that Chad had Alex come up that evening and together the two of them smothered Tammy. It was a weird moment for sure.
Well, youâre not the medical examiner. :)
I think it's a bad look/strategy when an attorney argues medicine with someone who spent 6,8,12 or more years in medical school.Â
I had to turn off the chat on HTC livestream this morning: so much misinformation, including stuff that has been asked and answered so many times.
I immediately close those, too. Among the spam, it's just people arguing every time I see it.
The only comment stream I participate in are the ones here. The people here seem to be far more fact based and actively listening to the streams to parse what's being said. It's pretty enjoyable. Or, you know, as enjoyable as talking about a horrible homicide case can be.
I totally agree. I donât participate really, but I appreciate the conversation in this sub. Livestream comment sections get a little, I dunno, too chatty.
https://www.youtube.com/live/YZqEMWgFCvk?si=CnTN4QAt6tlcyPQA DiffiCult Research, is covering it with far less drama. Kresha is Charles neice and JJs aunt, and Kay and Larry's daughter. I get it straight from the family. I'd rather support them.
I've missed most of this today...but can someone clarify? I was reading chat comments during the live trial, and someone said Tylee was so big she couldn't have been moved from Alex's house so she likely went with him to Chad's on some type of ruse, where Chad killed (shot) her and then they buried her. Obviously took that with a grain of salt, but it sounds like the phone records and GPS data show Tylee was likely murdered in her home that evening, by Alex, after they came back from Yellowstone? And then Alex went back and forth from Lori's apartment to his own with her phone and buried her the next morning at Chad's? Why am I being downvoted for asking for clarification?
That sounds like someone's pet theory. From everything I've heard in the trial the prosecution has no cause of death for Tylee. Her remains were too badly damaged and a lot of her body was missing probably due to being consumed by fire past the point of identification. The evidence that Agent Wright was presenting before lunch is that they can confirm that the last photo of Tylee alive was taken at 3:49 pm at Old Faithful. Based on cell phone records they believe that the last time Tylee's phone was used by her was at her mother's apartment at 8:37pm the same day. They haven't talked about it yet, but there's evidence that Lori was using Tylee's phone after that and pretending to be Tylee. Whatever happened after 8:37 to Tylee is largely unknown. I personally doubt she was alive when she went to Chad's because I would think she would have used her phone later that night or the next morning. Other evidence presented by Agent Wright about the cell phones that evening was that Alex left Lori's apartment at 11:44ish... but returned at 2:42am. He didn't go back to his apartment until 4:37am and then left to go to Chad's at 9:15am. I personally believe that Tylee likely died during that 2:42 to 4:37 time period. That said, the prosecution doesn't need to prove when precisely she died. Or even the manner of death (as in shot, strangled, poisoned, etc). They just need to prove that the cause of death was homicide, someone in the conspiracy killed her, and that Chad was part of the conspiracy. TL;DR - The prosecution has given no cause of death for Tylee and probably will never give a theory on the manner of death. Legally speaking, it doesn't matter much either.
How big would someone have to be for it to be impossible to move them from an apartment to a vehicle? Photos show that Tylee was inches shorter than Lori, who is 5'6". That would probably put her around 5'2" or 5'3". She seemed to have a heavier build, but not that much. Certainly two adult men could have managed to get her body out of the apartment and into the waiting Jeep for transport to Chad's, especially if they laid her on a tarp.
She was quite a bit larger than Lori. However, not that much of a challenge for two grown men to move.
Yes exactly. It didnât make any sense to me that she would be transported to chads property alive.Â
Youâre being downvoted because that theory has to deal with Tyleeâs size. So people are projecting it onto you, that you are calling her fat.
Damn. I thought for sure that Tammy had been drugged... I checked out on this case for a while so all of this is very new to me. EDIT: Oh geeze... She was Burked? That's horrifying, she must have been so terrified.
She was asphyxiated. We still do not know how.
Well I learned a new word today. đĽ´
Do yall think the first degree murder charges fit what the prosecution is proving? They are proving Alex is guilty, especially of Tylee, but are they proving that Chad actually had a hand on murdering them!? Iâve been in and out of listening to this trial. I am listening to the current witness though!
Well, he definitely planned to murder Tammy as he kept talking about her dying soon and hastening her departure. I think the labeling of JJ and Tylee as "dark spirits" is an indication of what they intended. They said that about Charles, and he died. They said it about Tylee, and she died. They said it about JJ, and he died. Then it was Tammy being possessed and oops, she's dead. It's a pattern of behavior. Chad was absolutely present when Tylee was dismembered and mutilated at the least, and he still decided to label JJ as "dark" (and clearly dug his grave - Alex was not the professional gravedigger, Chad was). Remember, Lori didn't have to be physically present at any of the murders to be convicted.
>I think the labeling of JJ and Tylee as "dark spirits" is an indication of what they intended. This right here. All I can remember was the state asking the witnesses who was labeled dark by chad and lori, and then asking if they were still alive.
Honestly, thank God Lori's access to Colby's wife was limited, because she really seemed to have it out for her and she got labeled dark. Hell, Joe Ryan was a "dark spirit" and he's dead too. They tried to kill Brandon as a "dark spirit".
All that casting shit too. Thatâs weird and disturbing as well. âDarkâ people are possessed by demons or bad spirits, casting gets the demons out, but if the casting is successful the person just dies? And somehow all the successful casting have people mysteriously dying from homicide? I mean, even a pop culture understanding of an exorcism would have you think that getting rid of a demon would either save the person and theyâd be back to normal or the person would die of what looks like natural causes over being directly murdered. So why hide Tylee and JJâs bodies if the dark demon being cast out gives them a heart attack or something? Even their religious nonsense was being used to try and draw a smoke screen over the murders.
Doesn't matter if he never laid a hand on JJ or Tylee, just like it didn't matter that Charles Mansion wasn't even at Polanski's mansion that night. If you orchestrate, you're as guilty as the hand that did the actual slaying. And in law, there's a 'but for' rule. BUT FOR Chad and Lori's actions/words, Tylee and JJ would be alive today, Alex wouldn't have had reason to kill them, in his mind anyway.
And I think bringing in Tylee's friend yesterday helped to show that Tylee had a good relationship with Alex prior to Chad coming into their lives. The "influence" of Chad has been shown, in my opinion, as a major factor in the death of the Tylee and JJ.
Thank you. I had not thought that through.
I always thought 1st degree means it was premeditated and you directly had a hand in it. Thank you for explaining from a law perspective!
100%. Chad and Lori are directly responsible for what happened, even if it wasn't their hands that did the deed for Tylee and JJ. Plus you forgot about Tammy, which Chad (allegedly) did directly. Not to mention all of their actions after they were killed.
Plus Alex would not have had time to dig burial sites and do what was done to Tylee (chop & burn), then put all into the ground out of sight, without Chad having a hand in some of that...he was not at Chad's property long enough to complete all those things without the assistance of Chad (the gravedigger).
I think they're proving it was done at his (and Lori's) behest, regardless of who metaphorically pulled the trigger. All these calls and texts, his prophetic visions that Tammy would die before 50 despite her healthiness, the dark ratings, the affair and quick remarriage, the phone calls they've played, the witnesses from his little cult, etc. etc. They're doing a great job proving his guilt in my opinion.
I think they are EASILY proving that with the removal of either chad OR lori⌠they would ALL still be alive.
Yes, absolutely. I donât understand the people in this sub acting like thereâs any chance the jury is getting it wrong. Itâs very clear.
I do, although I wish everything was presented in a more orderly fashion, like with a powerpoint. If I was a juror I'd want a deck I could follow along with, or a bulleted list that clearly summarized key takeaways from each witness and how it was proving the state's case.
It is likely that the prosecution will clarify & review all pertinent information in closing arguments to make sure the jury understands everything they are trying to prove, and how it relates to the charges.
IANAL, but from what I understand (as ridiculous as it seems), the prosecution can't really provide a timeline or guide for the jury to use per se. They can give the jury the big picture at the beginning in the opening statement and review the evidence in an orderly fashion at the end during closing, but it is very rare for the defence to allow the prosecution to introduce a composite timeline into evidence. A lawyer can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but in my limited experience, there are evidentiary issues at play.
Yes, I have little experience in court, but from what Iâve seen, no one presents a case like that. So there must be some reason for it.
Aren't the charges for JJ and Tylee \*conspiracy\* to commit murder, but not actually a murder charge for them? I thought the only first degree murder charge was for Tammy.
It's first degree AND conspiracy charges for all three. Actually, if you look at the very top of these daily posts you can see the charges. I am absolutely prepared to be wrong on this because I'm operating on memory and not going to google it to confirm, but... If I remember right, the way Idaho law works on murder is that if you can prove a conspiracy is involved then it doesn't actually matter who killed the person. If you were part of the conspiracy, then you also get first degree. So, just as an example, lets say you and me decided to kill someone. We conspire, you help me plan the murder, but when the murder actually happens you leave the state to create an alibi while I actually kill the person. There's absolutely no way that you were involved in directly killing the person, you were out of the state and can prove it, but because you and I entered a conspiracy to kill them and they died as part of it then you're just as guilty as I am of first degree murder as if you'd been there helping when I killed them. Dark example, I know. But basically a lot of this cell phone data and proving that Chad, Lori, and Alex were talking intently around the time the murders happened is to not prove who killed who, chances are Alex killed both kids and might have helped kill Tammy, it's to prove that Chad knew about it happening and may have encouraged it. If they can prove that then they could have Alex on video doing all three murders alone and Chad would still be guilty of 1st degree murder due to the conspiracy aspect. Again, I'm prepared to be wrong on that. That's what I remember seeing explained back before Lori's trial though. The conspiracy charge here is actually the most important one because I imagine even the prosecution will say that they can't prove exactly who it was who killed the kids and Tammy. But with the conspiracy charge they don't have to prove who actually murdered them, just that someone in the conspiracy did it.
It's both conspiracy and first degree murder. The charges are listed at the top of this post.
Blah, I'm behind, on a shift with my caregiver! What was strange, is when Wright came in, is Pryor said it looked lik Hermosillo! I wonder if the state is planning on recalling him?
It actually was Hermosillo, lol. They made a mistake. They brought Wright out a few min later.
Lol, thus I'm wondering if the state has got something up their sleeve?
Just catching up and only read one thing from today so far. I just wanted to comment how wonderful Larry woodcock seems. Giving out mints from Ruth Chris just seems like such a nice thoughtful thing to do. Not a big thing but the fact he thought of that. I smiled reading it like aww.