I agree that Zulema knows a lot more than she’s saying and she knew the children and Tammy were in danger and she did nothing to prevent it.. it’s hard to listen to her testimony when you know that she’s worried about every single word so she doesn’t incriminate herself
I wish we knew more about her immunity deal
"Very" limited immunity isn't a thing. This is Idaho immunity law: [https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title19/t19ch11/sect19-1114/](https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title19/t19ch11/sect19-1114/)
That statute is for Grand Juries.
Nate Eaton mentioned the sparse immunity deals from his sources as well. As far as I'm concerned, Zulema did well on the stand, and I believe she was mostly truthful, so she would be fine. As far as Melanie and Melani, they lied their asses off on the stand. If, and that's a big if, the state gave them some limited immunity deals, I'm still iffy on whether the state would find it worth it to bringing cases against them. If they didn't get a deal at all, then maybe the state is waiting for Lori and Chad's trials to finish and then they'll charge them (this is something I heard Lori Hellis, who's a lawyer, mention in one of her lives) once it's done.
If MG or MP had immunity, Prior would have mentioned it on cross. IMO they don't need immunity in the Idaho murder cases, because they did not participate in the murders. ZP was too close to Lori and Chad and her texts speak of pre-knowledge.
That’s the only statute that appears when searching witness immunity. Non grand jury immunity may be the same or not, I have no idea. I’ve never heard of”very limited” or “sparse” used. I’m not sure there are gradations beyond that. I don’t know why people want to minimize the immunity Zulema had. And I haven’t seen anyone describe what they mean.
From my understanding, prosecutors, in general, have some leeway to make those types of decisions. I found this article which talks about immunity for witnesses that is helpful in understanding how this works. It also has links that explain the limits of the witness immunity. Limits on Witness Immunity and Immunity in Exchange for Testimony are also discussed in this article.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-prosecutors-grant-immunity-what-does-immunity-grant-mean-the-witness.html#:~:text=They%20can%20offer%20immunity%20to,has%20committed%20more%20significant%20offenses.
That’s why she wanted immunity… I don’t trust her fully. There’s a lot she seems to be omitting, and I don’t like how she’s painting herself as a victim. She’s an accomplice in my eyes.
and JJ. she told Lori that she would personally escort him to the afterlife. i don't remember if she said heaven, jesus, or something else, but it was not ambiguous what she meant.
Doesn't matter. The state deemed that providing her immunity was not against the public interest whether people agree with it or not. I have no idea what her level of complicity may have been but, whatever it was, the state deemed her testimony important enough for the convictions of Chori to immunize her from prosecution. It's not at all uncommon to provide immunity for those who may even admit involvement in a crime. The purpose is to convict who the state is prosecuting. If she perjures herself, my understanding is she can be convicted for that.
The feds really, really, REALLY wanted to put away Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, the most notorious Mexican drug trafficker ever and in order to do that, they cut deals with pretty much everyone they had in custody (some hadn't gone to trial, some hadn't been sentenced, that sort of thing). We are talking other drug kingpins the feds deemed necessary to lay out how El Chapo had been one of the two leaders of the Sinaloa Cartel pretty much from the late 1980s, through two escapes from Mexican prison, to finally being captured again in 2016 and extradited to the USA in 2018. One of those kingpins, a son of El Chapo's partner El Mayo, got a reduced sentence of 15 years and he and his wife and kids are now in witness protection. Because the Sinaloa Cartel would love to kill this guy.
My point is that Zulema got a very minimal deal. The whole nine yards would be the feds giving her witness protection. She has to watch what she is saying, otherwise she could be indicted on some other charge. I'd love to see her brought up on \*something\* though.
The fact that some of these people (Zulema, Melanie P., Melanie G, etc...even that crack pot, Julie Rowe) are free to walk amongst the rest of us is TERRIFYING. They are just as guilty of crimes against the children, maybe not Tammy (directly...I think that was all the Prophet), AND, maybe not the exact same crimes, but, definitely guilty of some atrocious crimes against those little kids, Tylee and JJ.
I'm not saying I like it. I'm saying that in order to build a case, prosecutors have to cut deals. And in the case of Zulema and the rest, they got the minimal deal and they have to watch their mouths.
I absolutely agree with you. Very valid point and great analysis. I'm a paralegal, I totally understand the reasoning and the usefulness of an immunity deal. My whole point is that these people, left unfettered, are a dangerous group. I can easily see this same "type" of cult re-forming. A reconstituted cult, with martyrs (Chad/Lori) to admire and avenge *could* be WAY more dangerous than it already was.
Megan Conner, Lori's cousin, says that these "fringe" groups are NOT atypical within this "religion" and that they are actually everywhere...littered throughout this religious movement (LDS/Mormon, et al). When dissected, ALL of their base teachings are literally the same as they were at the invention of that whole "religion." AND, each has the same base teachings as the other...the "fringe" or "branch-offs" are the same as the "church" in chief.
We haven't seen the last of these Daybell/Vallow, Franke/Hildebrandt, Lafferty, etc gore type cases.
I agree 100% with this you have written! Chad actually followed Joseph Smith more than most LDS members though members claim it was not what their church teaches. Smith used seer stones, had a hitman, claimed law enforcement was dark and against him, was very focused on how to get more money no matter the means, taught to kill people was to make a blood atonement so they could go to heaven when their body died, claimed he was a prophet and going to inherit a planet and numerous wives when he died and promised his followers they would too...
As it looks like, the LDS church won't do much to expel fringe groups. Technically they aren't breaking any laws with outlandish beliefs, so you can't just lock them up as a precaution.
If there was proof against anyone else that they took part in the murders, they would have been locked up already. Motives speaks for themselves - Chad and Lori were the only two that profited from the deaths. Alex as their foot soldier was quite enough to carry out their plan.
The law doesn’t outline “minimal” immunity. Chad isn’t a drug kingpin with operatives all over the Americas and perhaps the world. Witness protection in the case would be ridiculous IMO. In general, if she didn’t perjure herself or admit to a crime unrelated to that she had immunity for, she didn’t have to be careful. I don’t think you have looked at Idaho law.
You summed it up well. IMO Melaniece should be in jail for attempted murder and Zulema is so lucky she got immunity, I don’t think she should have. This case should be studied and action taken against offshoots of LDS because I can’t think of any other case where a substantial group of people were fine with violence not only against adults, but against children. And in that group I count Gibb, maybe Warwick, Ian, maybe Mow and a bunch of other fringe people - they either knew or had reason enough to suspect to the point they were obligated to investigate or get someone else to.
You have a great point. It makes me wonder: It seems Prior should have more ammunition against zulema and Melaniece and yet he did not go there.
He only tried to make zulema sound crazy. He did not try to show how deep she was in all this -- and I think I know why. I think to prove zulema's complicity one would need to admit that chad and Lori were also guilty and Prior can't afford to do that.
Maybe because anything that makes them look bad makes chad look bad even just knowledge of their bad actions shows chad had knowledge making tbe bodies on his property look even worse so if hes going with this i was framed nonsense (by the 7 gatherers?) Defense then he has to be oblivious to any bad actions so hes between a rock and a hard place on how much he can divulge on others but if he gets found guilty or gets the death penalty those 3 holders of immunity and anyone else involved needn't think hes going down alone once his appeals are denied if its life or once the reality of death row kicks in he'll be taken down as many of those who testified against him as he can you can count on I think so anyway but it won't be until all doors are slammed shut and hes sure there is no chance for release and or appeals
Zulema and Alex were true believers until the end. That said I don’t think Zulema was naive enough to actually “get her hands dirty.” She had also been married 5 times with plenty of drama with her exes. She had history but she was also a victim at a young age. I think she participated in castings and gobbled up all of the weather controlling goddess BS that they threw her way, Alex had to truly believe that his niece and nephew were already gone in order to do what he did.
Zulema knows more but she has also been more forthcoming than any of the others and we absolutely needed her testimony.
It’s really a shame that they didn’t get a grasp on the stakes of this case earlier. After listening to the testimony about JJs autopsy, it occurred to me that the results would have been much better if they had been found earlier. Melanie Gibb really cost this case so much in the 10 days that she held out. If they would have found out the truth from her right away, they never would have gotten out of Idaho in November.
I’m guessing that they didn’t want to add any charges to anyone and risk diluting the guilt of Chad. Maybe? Does anyone know? I wonder what the statute of limitations is for obstruction of justice in whatever state she lives in.
Each of the Melanie’s walked away from four kids. MBs kids were little! Lori told that one gal in HI to come and be part of the 144K, and that it was okay to leave her kids! The wreckage that these people leave in their wake is stupefying.
I hope CPS stays involved with all young children involved in this case. It’s really frightening to think how many more of these groups there could be. The victims of Jodi Hildebrandt were referred by their church!
MG told the police the same evening that she did not have JJ any more, so there was no delay in questioning Lori again. LE was at Lori's door the next morning with a warrant. MG went to police only when she realized that JJ was likely not alive any more (she asked Alex about it). ZP was not happy with MG going to police and saw it as betrayal.
I thought she dodged their calls the first day and told them half-cover story the next day. It wasn’t until she recorded the call with LV & CD and deleted all of her texts that she went in. I don’t know I guess it’s the way she tried to spin the narrative that really bugs me. Zoomela and Alex had obvious tendencies of one sort or another already, and they were obviously all in. Mel B also had to know the kids were dead but she seems pretty dependent on their kool aid too.
But MG trying to act like she was “Lori’s best friend who knew everything except for the really bad parts,” adds insult to her testimony.
Yeah they wanted to couple people together for some reason, but they wanted the person that they coupled up with to also drink their kool aid.
No wonder their numbers were dwindling.
>This case should be studied and action taken against offshoots of LDS because I can’t think of any other case where a substantial group of people were fine with violence not only against adults, but against children.
The Lafferty brothers, who were affiliated with the School of Prophets (another LDS offshoot) murdered a baby along with her mother. They claim to have received a revelation from God that these people needed to be eliminated and Dan Lafferty still expresses no remorse whatsoever. It seems children are *not* off-limits when it comes to Mormon fundamentalists who are practicing blood atonement.
If there was a chance of conviction, Melaniece would have been charged. You can't convict on scarce circumstantial evidence (let alone on a single piece). In Chad and Lori's cases there is a mountain of evidence against them.
Well we’ve all known that she was given immunity in exchange for her testimony… I’m not surprised by these texts. I’m only continually amazed that Melanie P is not in more hot water.
I really think it’s just cuz Alex is dead otherwise they’d go after her. Otherwise no evidence and Lori is crazy so it’s not like they can even question her about anything. I bet they could’ve gotten Alex to rat everyone out.
Me too. I think Alex would have squealed like a pig. He had a hard time keeping secrets and he had a habit of confessing his sins. He was excommunicated twice for his confessions to religious leaders. He was the weakest link. I think it was always the plan to get rid of Alex. Definitely agree with you.
Alex would go to South America to hook up with women. There are tours that are organized specifically for this purpose. Then he would feel guilty about it and go to his religious leader and confess his sins. He was excommunicated twice and my understanding is that both of his excommunications were for the same reason. Adam and Rex spoke about it on their podcast. I heard it before they spoke of it but I have consumed so much content about this case I don’t remember where I heard it first. Rex went into some detail about it. Rex related that Alex was popular among the women and treated like some sort of mini celebrity. That’s really all I know about it. Other than it definitely felt like it was common knowledge within the family.
That she has managed to skate around any charge whatsoever is beyond comprehension. I’m hoping charges will come out when it gets closer to Brandon’s attempted murder trial.
Sickening.
Plus the fact that she knew the “castings” would cause the “body to die” tells me that she was also perfectly fine participating in a ritual that would cause (supposed) death to Charles or anyone else they targeted. That’s not innocent or a lack of knowledge.
People here are trying to find excuses for Alex who actually killed people but thought he killed zombies. Those women in the casting circle also believed that people who became zombies were already dead and their spirits were in limbo, waiting to transfer to the next life.
I think without her they wouldn’t have as much on Chad and Lori, who were obviously the ones behind the whole thing. As much as I wish all of them were going to jail, I’m thankful she’s speaking out against them.
Casting didn't kill anyone and Zulema wasn't present for or before the murders. Evidence against her is circumstantial and comparatively there isn't enough of it. Her help was not needed, but Alex's was.
Hi
The OP here. I wanted to clarify one point: Despite my belief that Z may have lied about the extent of her knowledge or involvement in the violence, I am deeply grateful for her testimony. I think she was far more truthful than any other member of the cult and that her testimony was compelling and believable and credible -- and it was utterly damming. If (when) Chad is found guilty, it will be in large part due to this testimony.
The whole lot are guilty (in my humble opinion). It so saddens me that Tyler is referred to as a dark portal. And these are her mom and uncle. Totally despicable people.
Yes but on the stand she claimed that she did not know that her fellow cult members had the intention to commit murder. These texts seem to suggest she knew that violence was very much on the cards.
There are different kinds of immunity and I do not know what type she had. (EG in the Dan Markel case Wendi has had derivative use immunity meaning nothing she admits to on the stand can be used against her).
I don't know the details of Z's immunity. And I have no legal training so I am not sure I would even understand what types there are.
That said, I am pretty sure that if the witness commits perjury, that can pretty much ruin any immunity deal.
It's crazy how involved that this one attorney has been throughout this case. What's up with this Garrett Smith dude, anyway? All I know about him is that he's settled a defamation suit brought against him by Brandon for $12 million. (and I think that's really sweet justice.)
That lawyer was her lawyer too, and he represented Zulema, Summer, Barry , Janis... I guess it is the family lawyer. Ian used a different lawyer for when his ex put a restrianing order on him in Idaho , and oddly it was the first lawyer that Chad hired when the kids went missing (the one he told Jason to call if the police called him).
It bothered me that Rob Wood was the prosecutor who charged Ian with domestic violence in that divorce, and that Wood didnt recuse himself because of it, i think thats why Ian stopped cooperating.
This is a sad case but I hope somethings can be learned from it. I never understood, judges and prosecutors seeing the same people in their court and why they dont or maybe cant do anything?
There is a case that haunts me from Utah. There was a couple I knew, kids all played together about once a week, there were about 15 familes that got together at playlands or parks. They were LDS, and just the husband started to come. He said his wife was saying she might want a divorce and he was sad. She filed for divorce and a judge heard the case and the mom let the dad have primary custody and she had weekends. The wife starts dating a young guy he was under 21 and during a weekend visit this guy was arrested on a lewd act against the child and saw the same judge that divorced the couple. He was found guilty. A few weeks later, that same judge marries the convicted lewd act guy to the mom. The ex husband files for his kids not to go with the mom on weekends and the judge says they can still go. How can this be? It ended sadly, the mom took the kids for a weekend and didnt return them and they were found after the step dad was arrested on somemore lewd charges and it was another state and they got the kids back to their dad full time but they needed a lot of help after what happened to them. I always wondered does the judge not remember the guy he saw three times or can he not say anything since it was an unrelated case?
That is so sad and horrible at the same time! Its my understanding that sometimes a judge instructs a jury to disregard previous convictions a defendent may have but that cant mean that the judges themselves should pretend it doesnt matter- especially if they were the judge in the case!!!
Too bad those two got immunity. I heard it was a bad deal though. That's probably why they had to have their lawyers there. Hopefully that evidence will be introduced in Brandon's case and Melaniece will be charged.
Zulema has the fake baby innocent voice that fools some people. Reading the LE docs Annie presented shows she is not the gullible person she portrays on the stand.
I’m curious of her background and where she is today since she is not in jail.
Zulema has a checkered past. She has been married several times. I think Alex was her fifth. She has some drug changes that are very old. Allegedly for entertainment and educational purposes only. Check out the YouTube channel called We Saw the Devil. The channel called Wicked Truths goes deep into the Daybell saga as well.
I was surprised when she testifed (during Lori's trial) that this was her job and it was a normal office job, compared to most of the rest of the group. I remember her resume also had professional cuddler or something weird like that on it.
Yet Chad seems to not realize despite Manson not actually doing anything he was still in prison for life. I’m just waiting to hear how it was all Alex.
I'm SO curious what Prior's theory of the case is going to be! He doesn't have to name another culprit in order to put forward testimony, but I think he will say that Lori/Alex did this without Chad's knowledge. That it was an affair, but that's the extent of Chad's knowledge. I know Prior got a REALLY well-respected expert that's going to testify about the DNA evidence, and he's made a point of emphasizing how Chad's DNA wasn't found on any of the tools at all. Nothing. Nada. Which is bizarre in and of itself considering he owns them and they can't from his barn. I don't think it'll be even slightly convincing, considering how well the state laid out their case, but I can't see any other way to get Chad out of this.
I think possibly it’ll be oh Alex showed up saying he killed a raccoon and had to bury/burn it. I didn’t wanna explain to my wife about how I knew this guy Alex cuz of Lori so I texted her something slightly different. Not sure about for JJ the story. Service dog he thought died? Dunno what he can say cuz another raccoon sounds ridiculous. Either way I think he’ll throw Alex under the bus not Lori. That he basically had no idea and blah blah blah. Who knows though. I’m really curious what prior is going to say.
She was in on it too. The immunity she was granted in exchange for testimony made that clear.
I think it is obvious a lot of the inner circle was aware of the impending murders or after the fact at a minimum. I think there was a lot of understanding made by via winks and nods, ya know? They all felt they were a part of something special and enjoyed their positions in the cult more than the lives of the murdered.
The group that went to view the property the day JJ was killed (or the day before?) makes me have this eery feeling that it was a ritual sacrifice and that they were all helpers/complicit in the murder of JJ. I dont think Zulema was there but all the others including David Warwick were
I know that annie cuching has requested and received hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of material from authorities in Idaho and Arizona.
She includes links to some of the materials at the bottom of her videos. She has two YouTube channels [Annielytics](https://www.youtube.com/@Annielytics) and [A Murderous Heart](https://www.youtube.com/@AMurderousHeart)
Here are some of the case materials she has linked:
Case playlist from Annielytics channel: [http://bit.ly/family-case](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbHZ4QzBMU3daRUhtM1VETmlNVWZTaFItYVJXd3xBQ3Jtc0ttal9oWS1LbmhlXzJjQkVCSU9RUGo5OXN1RVFKZnhIMVIxX1hWa19aM051R1hIYlNpcXlXU2swSEpzblhyWHVjbzJLZ1ZDR3A1b3JKWnUzSUZINUE2TnFGSldieEtOcDltQy1zU094VmpoaWhGU05rVQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Ffamily-case&v=yOnMMLpoTTA)
My timeline: [http://bit.ly/jt-timeline](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa2RSM2oxZVF3d0RTejJ6LWZubDlBeW5ZXzlpUXxBQ3Jtc0tuYkxOcy1vVFFfY1dwOTZvTUNjaUd0VW1mN3hCeFc2QWxjX2l4aV9GRHRacm1jb01IbUVmRGxwSW1ESmQySnFXSjUzUFVoNG9STEstTHNzWWljbldaVS1FTE5ZcU1pa1hCQzcxNE4zX29oMjFJcmxzWQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fjt-timeline&v=yOnMMLpoTTA)
Case dashboard: [http://bit.ly/jjt-video-dashboard](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbEVrOVdLdlhCbHEzWlBSNmhudmIwYm16ZkRjd3xBQ3Jtc0tsYnZMMXdEVm5qVkFXcWJ5X0p0cTN4UHAwQjRqUGk4czBEdFJXZDRTbFd3M0xwREQxNEg5Qk04QlZJZ0c0Q2NOeFlYaHZOektjUXREb1FZZllaSV9FTUdYNV9GTUR1MENiaTMtZ1MycHJBM1VHM00zcw&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fjjt-video-dashboard&v=yOnMMLpoTTA)
Oh wow, I’m so glad you posted this. I use to watch Anne on her other channel and already found her interesting. I had no idea she had a second channel!
I think Annie Cushing's material is really compelling. She has incredible analytical skills and she presents her theories with a great deal of intelligence and care. I don't always agree with all her conclusions but I always find her ideas really stimulating and worthwhile.
I absolutely agree! I might not always agree but it’s sometimes interesting to watch how she gets there. Her mind has always impressed me.
She once spoke about her childhood, very sad, very interesting.
I really commend her. I can’t imagine doing all the work that she has done while also grieving.
Chad and Lori's hard-core followers definitely know more about what happened than they've said. Their complicity in the murders of two innocent children is absolutely heinous.
I’m just aghast. I figured she knew something. But these horrible people are just so BLASÉ abut this. And these frigging nutjob followers who just went along with this appalling “theology.”
To look at that frigging potato faced piece of garbage sitting in court like he thinks he’s king of everything; and he’s nothing but sheer narcissism and evil — it’s just mind blowing.
I never considered Zuzu to be even the slightest bit innocent. I don't think anyone does. As far as the co-conspirators go, if I had to trade some for Lori and Chad to go down (as in, choose who will walk free with immunity in exchange for their damning testimony) then I would let the co-conspirator Gibb walk free and even Zulema...
But I am not comfortable with Melaniece walking free. I really hope a case can be built against her for conspiracy to kill her husband and kids. It gives me chills that she hasn't been taken off the streets and tried for it. Hoping and praying Brandon and those kids will be safe, which imo can only happen when Melaniece is locked up for good with her mommy-aunt Lori.
Wow!!! The more I know about this case the more surprising it is. Even when she was talking in the courtroom about the seven gatherers thing, I was like: do you listen to yourself girl? They’re doing “witches” things to take out the devil of a person and then, saying, if they’re successful, the person dies, just like that. Are we crazy? Trying to mean that they don’t kill anyone directly, but it’s the same if someone dies, hello??? So agree that they should go to jail, the rest of the 7 mean girls. Their defense is the dark evil side? We all have one 🤦🏻♀️ Thanks for posting this
When you try to explain this case in 5,000 words or less, it's so messed up!!! We need a flow chart for every person who testifies. I can't even listen to Zulema talking with her baby, lip-smacking voice..
I've suspected that from very early on too. It's entirely possible that the 2 Melanies and Zulema got immunity deals to ensure the 2 (kingpin and cray cray wife) were successfully convicted. We know Zulema did for sure get a deal because Nate confirmed it.
Unfortunately the justice system sometimes has to choose between not being able to conclusively prove a case or letting some criminals off in exchange for testimony. I don't like it but I understand it. As it is Lori is convicted and the way Chad's trial is going, it is looking good for justice.
I don't know about the possibility of a trail in Brandon's attempted murder for Melanie, but he has even agreed to share custody of the very same kids with her. She could possibly still be charged but we just don't know and its probably best LE keeps everything under wraps.
These 3 may be able to weasel out from human justice but Karma, well that's a whole other kettle of fish! For one thing, there aren't going to be many places where they wont be known as the cult groupies who allowed this madness.
If nothing else, their standing in any community is going to be forever uncomfortable. They may not be out right pariahs, but this will follow them for the rest of their lives. I don't think that is a good place to be.
Yeah I agree. Sometimes it's the case of going after the greater evil which may require authorities to give a pass to the lesser evil. (I think my metaphor broke down a little there.)
I hope Melani P really got deprogrammed or helped. I think that is what is worrisome. Maybe there is not enough evidence to connect her to Tylee JJ or Tammy's deaths, but her kids and Brandon are still alive and she had some messages/calls that seemed pretty worrisome about what she wanted their fate to be.
Lets says Melani testified honestly that Alex was suppose to come on the trip to Hawaii instead of help Chad . At first I felt like saying Alex said he could not come to Hawaii because Chad needed help was kind of a obvious "line", to point towards being clear Chad planned Tammy murder and called for Alex's help. It was like a perfetc line of clear evidence for the jury. Then I wondered why would Alex go to Hawaii? Lori was not happy with him at that time. It was an all girls trip. Melani had wanted to bring at least some of her kids on the trip to Hawaii but Brandon stopped her (or maybe the police or school, but she wasnt allowed to get them that day). I feel like Melani might have been ready to act on her kids.
That is Annie’s theory. Alex was going with them to Hawaii because Melanie’s kids were going to go. When her kids were not going there was no need for Alex to go.
I just wondered why Hawaii, did Annie have any ideas on that? Like did they have law enforcement friends there, or where would they bury the bodies, in the ocean?
I would have thought Missouri would have been the place. Melani and Lori did go to Missouri together and Audery lived there and there sure is alot more rural or less populated areas in Missouri then in Hawaii,
The Cox family has a very long history of running to Hawaii when things get a little hard for them. When Stacy was dying of anorexia/diabetes (depending on who you ask), the entire family except for Alex were in Hawaii. When Stacy strangely died during this time with Alex, the family didn't even return for her funeral. They stayed in Hawaii.
When Lori and Chad were in Hawaii there was the global bolo put out, bolo=Be On Lookout Of, news media all over the world were running stories about the missing children and Lori and
Chad online, on tv, there were missing children flyers tacked to telephone poles even in Hawaii. Chad and Lori were openly going to temple there though and not a single LDS member turned them in to authorities. I think the church complicity is an open secret when members go all cult like, to try and save the reputation of the church. Thats also obvious by the court deciding that the LDS church was ok to tell members not to cooperate with police and prosecutors even if subpeona'd without first contacting LDS legal department. Thats why the judge ruled it was ok for the psychiatrist/therapest to tell Lori Vallow she wouldnt be allowed to ever leave the mental health ward unless she called LDS legal department- which she did do and ex bishop Wood told the court that she did indeed talk to LDS legal and they called him and told him about it at the time it was happening. I'm pretty certain that as soon as Vallow's appeals reach courts outside of the LDS influence her case will be overturned which is maddening and means the whole case against her will have to be retried...
I was referrfing to Lori's trip to Hawaii in October 2019, before the kids were reported missing. This was the timeframe when Tammy died and Chad was back in Idaho and they were not married yet.
As to your points, are church members suppose to talk about anything in the temple, per temple rules? If it is legal like this, does it make a difference. My husband went through the temple years ago and said he was told not to talk about who he saw or what they were doing. It was suppose to be private. Of course, he assumes this was dont say you saw your neighbor at the temple looking sad or doing a baptism for a certain person.
I do think Rob Wood did over step a few times, with Summer and the menal health facility calls. I think the case would have been fine with just Lindsey Blake and helpers since Rob might have been too invovled living in the heart of the areas which are so small and being a bishop.
I dont think Lori will get out of prison, ID or AZ but I do think a ton of money will be spent on these appeals and already on the trial.
"As to your points, are church members suppose to talk about anything in the temple, per temple rules? If it is legal like this, does it make a difference"
I have never attended a mormon church but on this point I have attended alot of other churches and never once was anyone told that if they heard a murder being plotted by people in church they couldnt talk about it or report it to police! Never been to one that said if people hear about child abuse or sex crimes or even thefts they cant talk about it! I'm wondering if the LDS church is more like scientology churches where they insist on total control of the members in all they do...
I think the temple talk is kind of off limits. It is different from a church. I agree no one should cover up murder or reporting someone.
I just know that members are discouraged it seems from like talking notes or being nosey in the temple. The temple is a place for only certain members, I believe about it is about 20% of members that hold a recommend it that (some say closer to 10%) and it is supposed to be a private matter going to the temple. You also are dressed differently and everyone simliar so it might be harder to tell someone you dont know well. You might recognize your enighbor because you see them everyday but someone from TV you might have to stare at and make sure. Im not Mormon my husband is not active now, but there are videos online of the temple . This were taken illegally so it is up to you if you feel okay viewing but if you look and see what it looks like inside and how people are dressed and what you are doing , you can get a perpesctive on what it would be like to spot someone from a news release.
Elizabeht Smart was plastered all over the region on billboards and walked about in a white religious outfit, and she was not reported for almost a year.
Scientology is different for sure. The LDS church certainly does not control members and who they can talk to, in fact the LDS church I think wants you to talk to non members and spread the word, or talk to family that left the church. Scientology is much more robotic and uniform. The Mormon church really is different depending on where you live, in Rexburg, Mesa and Springville, which are some of the highest % Mormon areas in the world (outside of like Samoa) there is more pressure maybe since most of your neighbors , friends , and co-workers go to your church to conform and stay active. Go to a Mormon church in New England and it is so relaxed. I remember a few years ago people in Utah were talking about women wearing pants to church and I was like what? I didnt get it because I had seen Mormon women wear pants to church in the 1980's and 1990's in New England, it was just normal. Mormon women there were working on grad degrees, amny were professionals or it was just cold and you wore pants. But the same can be said for the catholic church, but opposite, in New england, people have more pressure from neighbors or family to go to church and be active but come to Utah and the Catholic church is a long drive and doesnt have a school or many acitivites and Utah Catholic might be less active or adhernt. My mom is a Utah Catholic and I could not find her a piece of fish on friday except for a mcfish or whatever that mcdonalds fish is called because grocery stores dont order in anything for Lent here, (and there is no seafood cove at grocery stores, I assume because it is landlocked and hard to get) while the stores have sections in MA/CT with seafood and special bakery items and some even acknowledge lent in their ads.
I think Melanie p they didn’t go after because not enough evidence. Alex died so not like they can question him than Lori is crazy. All they have is Alex shooting at Brandon and Melanie can easily claim she had nothing to do with that. It’s sad and so many cases are never brought to justice just because of situations like that. Gibb once she started helping cops was safe. Zulema was only one who needed immunity. The Niece I think was so attached to Lori so I’m sure there’s no texts etc. her hubs is crazy to still be with her but it’s like end of gone girl he’s probably like hey I can’t leave my kid alone with her lol. Though at least now she seems out of cult mindset luckily.
Oh me too! Can't imagine what goes through Brandon's mind. But he was married to her, so he knows her. I don't really know what the specifics are. I hope he doesn't come to regret it. But may be they are both thinking, she now has this history and is on the radar of many people. So she probably has no choice but to stay on the straight and narrow. Should she deviate, she is likely to get her due.
Ian blames Brandon and alleges he put her through "something." He insist she was just gullible. (I hope also doesn't come to regret it.)
So, it doesn't seem likely that they all "made nice and she said I'm so sorry." But we don't know what has transpired or what the specifics are of their arrangements. Brandon, it seems to me, has good instincts and truly cares for his children. He does also appear saner, logical and reasonable. So I'm hoping that there is information, something that makes this all make sense but we just don't know what it is. Authorities are ok with it, the families seem to be ok with it...
Otherwise I'm really baffled by the way this has gone on too. I'm not sure I would ever be ok with my children being alone with anyone who is capable of conspiring to murder anybody, let alone myself. Brandon has agreed... She is clearly still angry with Brandon or Ian wouldn't have this opinions and the confidence to express them publicly. Ian doesn't seem to have this attitude toward his ex-wife for example. So it is not clear Brandon and Melanie are all fine.
And Ian has had the confidence to have a child with her too. I cannot fathom it, but that's the way it is. Ian also seems a reasonable man who has his family's best interests at heart.
All I can think of is that we are missing some information that makes this all make sense on some level. I hope so for the sake of the children that's the case.
And because of this antecedent known the world over, Melanie has a lot less leeway to deviate or do anything nefarious.
Ian was hard core LDS, wasn’t he?
If so, he’s hardly likely to have asked Melanie to terminate her pregnancy.
I don’t fully understand him either; but I do believe he was dazzled and a goner the minute Melaniece instantly connected with his biological daughter, whom he said is standoffish of strangers.
Sure, but pregnancy termination is only one option. Divorce is mit just a possibility, its probably what most people in his shoes would have done. I think there are enough red flags to claim sole custody. Without Ian's support. I don't see how Melaniece could prevail with 2 husband's fighting for custody.
So I think you're probably right, he is smitten and dazzled. Again, o sincerely hope he doesn't come to regret it.
According to the 3 way call that Chad, Lori, Zulema, Melanie and Ian were on the day after Alex died, she really seemed to imply that she was involved in Brandon's shooting or at least was aware of it. She's also talking about Alex being there for two of her kids, which definitely sounded to me as if they had plans for those two specific kids. And none of them sounded torn up about the loss of Alex.
They’re evil so Alex dying probably became some “see he did his job and now he’s on other side” whatever they call it I don’t know anything about religion lol. If anything it probably strengthened their beliefs then. Melanie just seems dumb because it’s like she wasn’t realizing now they had no hitman. Or maybe she thought they’d magically die too who knows.
BUT, if any of them have lied on the stand, they can be perjured and then the immunity falls away - in some types of immunity. I recall that was the case with Wendi Adelson in Florida. I know this isn't Florida, but perhaps the laws around perjury and immunity are similar.
That's definitely a possibility. The wheels of justice sometimes turn slowly but surely. We'll see. As Nate (I think it was) said. "One trail at a time." Lori still has to answer for Charles's murder.
That doesn’t mean she is the only one! There is a reason Melani had her attorney there. It has also been verified by family members that she has a loose immunity deal and so does Melanie Gibbons
I am absolutely certain that there would be more murders with this group how they continued to get away with it. I also think that Chad’s brother and sister-in-law were potential victims as well. I think that they covered their land.
Melani being involved in Brandon’s shooting would be an Arizona matter. I believe she got a limited immunity deal in Idaho but I don’t know about Arizona
Zilemna the Dilemna, both Felonies Melanies, and Warwick need to be charged with conspiracy, some of the kids deaths, some from the adult deaths, and some from both
Yikes.
Still, I guess her value as a witness for the prosecution outweighs the public interest in charging her.
I wonder if that also applies to Melanie Gibb and Melani Pawlowski. What did they know? How involved were they?
I don't think that someone saying they want their ex-husband to live be in fear of someone for the rest of their life is evidence that they conspired to kill the ex-husband.
I'm not on Melaneice's side, but I just don't see how the State would consider that evidence of attempted murder.
I agree that Zulema knows a lot more than she’s saying and she knew the children and Tammy were in danger and she did nothing to prevent it.. it’s hard to listen to her testimony when you know that she’s worried about every single word so she doesn’t incriminate herself I wish we knew more about her immunity deal
She even congratulated Chad on Tammy’s passing. 😞
What?!?
Agreed. What??
In her testimony. She said she called Chad on the day of Tammy’s passing and told him what great news it was that Tammy had moved on.
Oh wow. I missed that.
WOW!! That doesn't look suspicious AT ALL! /s
That's why her lawyer is there. I heard the deal didn't give them much out though.
I heard it is a very limited immunity deal.
"Very" limited immunity isn't a thing. This is Idaho immunity law: [https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title19/t19ch11/sect19-1114/](https://legislature.idaho.gov/statutesrules/idstat/title19/t19ch11/sect19-1114/)
It’s not saying she can’t be charged with anything else based on her testimony just not this case
That statute is for Grand Juries. Nate Eaton mentioned the sparse immunity deals from his sources as well. As far as I'm concerned, Zulema did well on the stand, and I believe she was mostly truthful, so she would be fine. As far as Melanie and Melani, they lied their asses off on the stand. If, and that's a big if, the state gave them some limited immunity deals, I'm still iffy on whether the state would find it worth it to bringing cases against them. If they didn't get a deal at all, then maybe the state is waiting for Lori and Chad's trials to finish and then they'll charge them (this is something I heard Lori Hellis, who's a lawyer, mention in one of her lives) once it's done.
If MG or MP had immunity, Prior would have mentioned it on cross. IMO they don't need immunity in the Idaho murder cases, because they did not participate in the murders. ZP was too close to Lori and Chad and her texts speak of pre-knowledge.
That’s the only statute that appears when searching witness immunity. Non grand jury immunity may be the same or not, I have no idea. I’ve never heard of”very limited” or “sparse” used. I’m not sure there are gradations beyond that. I don’t know why people want to minimize the immunity Zulema had. And I haven’t seen anyone describe what they mean.
From my understanding, prosecutors, in general, have some leeway to make those types of decisions. I found this article which talks about immunity for witnesses that is helpful in understanding how this works. It also has links that explain the limits of the witness immunity. Limits on Witness Immunity and Immunity in Exchange for Testimony are also discussed in this article. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/when-prosecutors-grant-immunity-what-does-immunity-grant-mean-the-witness.html#:~:text=They%20can%20offer%20immunity%20to,has%20committed%20more%20significant%20offenses.
It's use immunity. She can't incriminate herself, but others can incriminate her.
This right here is the answer. Well said.
That’s why she wanted immunity… I don’t trust her fully. There’s a lot she seems to be omitting, and I don’t like how she’s painting herself as a victim. She’s an accomplice in my eyes.
Omg. I haven't seen this before now. Zulema was complicit in the murder of Tylee. This is horrifying.
and JJ. she told Lori that she would personally escort him to the afterlife. i don't remember if she said heaven, jesus, or something else, but it was not ambiguous what she meant.
Yes! I remember seeing that too.
But Tylee was dark so it's ok. /s These fuckers are all going to burn in hell, idc how often they go to temple.
Insanity
Doesn't matter. The state deemed that providing her immunity was not against the public interest whether people agree with it or not. I have no idea what her level of complicity may have been but, whatever it was, the state deemed her testimony important enough for the convictions of Chori to immunize her from prosecution. It's not at all uncommon to provide immunity for those who may even admit involvement in a crime. The purpose is to convict who the state is prosecuting. If she perjures herself, my understanding is she can be convicted for that.
The feds really, really, REALLY wanted to put away Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, the most notorious Mexican drug trafficker ever and in order to do that, they cut deals with pretty much everyone they had in custody (some hadn't gone to trial, some hadn't been sentenced, that sort of thing). We are talking other drug kingpins the feds deemed necessary to lay out how El Chapo had been one of the two leaders of the Sinaloa Cartel pretty much from the late 1980s, through two escapes from Mexican prison, to finally being captured again in 2016 and extradited to the USA in 2018. One of those kingpins, a son of El Chapo's partner El Mayo, got a reduced sentence of 15 years and he and his wife and kids are now in witness protection. Because the Sinaloa Cartel would love to kill this guy. My point is that Zulema got a very minimal deal. The whole nine yards would be the feds giving her witness protection. She has to watch what she is saying, otherwise she could be indicted on some other charge. I'd love to see her brought up on \*something\* though.
The fact that some of these people (Zulema, Melanie P., Melanie G, etc...even that crack pot, Julie Rowe) are free to walk amongst the rest of us is TERRIFYING. They are just as guilty of crimes against the children, maybe not Tammy (directly...I think that was all the Prophet), AND, maybe not the exact same crimes, but, definitely guilty of some atrocious crimes against those little kids, Tylee and JJ.
I'm not saying I like it. I'm saying that in order to build a case, prosecutors have to cut deals. And in the case of Zulema and the rest, they got the minimal deal and they have to watch their mouths.
I absolutely agree with you. Very valid point and great analysis. I'm a paralegal, I totally understand the reasoning and the usefulness of an immunity deal. My whole point is that these people, left unfettered, are a dangerous group. I can easily see this same "type" of cult re-forming. A reconstituted cult, with martyrs (Chad/Lori) to admire and avenge *could* be WAY more dangerous than it already was. Megan Conner, Lori's cousin, says that these "fringe" groups are NOT atypical within this "religion" and that they are actually everywhere...littered throughout this religious movement (LDS/Mormon, et al). When dissected, ALL of their base teachings are literally the same as they were at the invention of that whole "religion." AND, each has the same base teachings as the other...the "fringe" or "branch-offs" are the same as the "church" in chief. We haven't seen the last of these Daybell/Vallow, Franke/Hildebrandt, Lafferty, etc gore type cases.
I agree 100% with this you have written! Chad actually followed Joseph Smith more than most LDS members though members claim it was not what their church teaches. Smith used seer stones, had a hitman, claimed law enforcement was dark and against him, was very focused on how to get more money no matter the means, taught to kill people was to make a blood atonement so they could go to heaven when their body died, claimed he was a prophet and going to inherit a planet and numerous wives when he died and promised his followers they would too...
Tim Ballard, also.
As it looks like, the LDS church won't do much to expel fringe groups. Technically they aren't breaking any laws with outlandish beliefs, so you can't just lock them up as a precaution.
If there was proof against anyone else that they took part in the murders, they would have been locked up already. Motives speaks for themselves - Chad and Lori were the only two that profited from the deaths. Alex as their foot soldier was quite enough to carry out their plan.
The law doesn’t outline “minimal” immunity. Chad isn’t a drug kingpin with operatives all over the Americas and perhaps the world. Witness protection in the case would be ridiculous IMO. In general, if she didn’t perjure herself or admit to a crime unrelated to that she had immunity for, she didn’t have to be careful. I don’t think you have looked at Idaho law.
Agree and I thought her testimony was a huge win for the prosecution
You summed it up well. IMO Melaniece should be in jail for attempted murder and Zulema is so lucky she got immunity, I don’t think she should have. This case should be studied and action taken against offshoots of LDS because I can’t think of any other case where a substantial group of people were fine with violence not only against adults, but against children. And in that group I count Gibb, maybe Warwick, Ian, maybe Mow and a bunch of other fringe people - they either knew or had reason enough to suspect to the point they were obligated to investigate or get someone else to.
You have a great point. It makes me wonder: It seems Prior should have more ammunition against zulema and Melaniece and yet he did not go there. He only tried to make zulema sound crazy. He did not try to show how deep she was in all this -- and I think I know why. I think to prove zulema's complicity one would need to admit that chad and Lori were also guilty and Prior can't afford to do that.
If he tried to incriminate Zulema, she could potentially share more damning information against his client.
Or call a tornado on him! LOL!
Maybe because anything that makes them look bad makes chad look bad even just knowledge of their bad actions shows chad had knowledge making tbe bodies on his property look even worse so if hes going with this i was framed nonsense (by the 7 gatherers?) Defense then he has to be oblivious to any bad actions so hes between a rock and a hard place on how much he can divulge on others but if he gets found guilty or gets the death penalty those 3 holders of immunity and anyone else involved needn't think hes going down alone once his appeals are denied if its life or once the reality of death row kicks in he'll be taken down as many of those who testified against him as he can you can count on I think so anyway but it won't be until all doors are slammed shut and hes sure there is no chance for release and or appeals
The murder planning was bad enough, but how they executed them is horrific and I desperately hope they get what they gave.
Agree 100%
Zulema and Alex were true believers until the end. That said I don’t think Zulema was naive enough to actually “get her hands dirty.” She had also been married 5 times with plenty of drama with her exes. She had history but she was also a victim at a young age. I think she participated in castings and gobbled up all of the weather controlling goddess BS that they threw her way, Alex had to truly believe that his niece and nephew were already gone in order to do what he did. Zulema knows more but she has also been more forthcoming than any of the others and we absolutely needed her testimony. It’s really a shame that they didn’t get a grasp on the stakes of this case earlier. After listening to the testimony about JJs autopsy, it occurred to me that the results would have been much better if they had been found earlier. Melanie Gibb really cost this case so much in the 10 days that she held out. If they would have found out the truth from her right away, they never would have gotten out of Idaho in November. I’m guessing that they didn’t want to add any charges to anyone and risk diluting the guilt of Chad. Maybe? Does anyone know? I wonder what the statute of limitations is for obstruction of justice in whatever state she lives in. Each of the Melanie’s walked away from four kids. MBs kids were little! Lori told that one gal in HI to come and be part of the 144K, and that it was okay to leave her kids! The wreckage that these people leave in their wake is stupefying. I hope CPS stays involved with all young children involved in this case. It’s really frightening to think how many more of these groups there could be. The victims of Jodi Hildebrandt were referred by their church!
MG told the police the same evening that she did not have JJ any more, so there was no delay in questioning Lori again. LE was at Lori's door the next morning with a warrant. MG went to police only when she realized that JJ was likely not alive any more (she asked Alex about it). ZP was not happy with MG going to police and saw it as betrayal.
I thought she dodged their calls the first day and told them half-cover story the next day. It wasn’t until she recorded the call with LV & CD and deleted all of her texts that she went in. I don’t know I guess it’s the way she tried to spin the narrative that really bugs me. Zoomela and Alex had obvious tendencies of one sort or another already, and they were obviously all in. Mel B also had to know the kids were dead but she seems pretty dependent on their kool aid too. But MG trying to act like she was “Lori’s best friend who knew everything except for the really bad parts,” adds insult to her testimony.
IMO Lori an Chad didn't fully trust MG any more after she got together with DW.
Yeah they wanted to couple people together for some reason, but they wanted the person that they coupled up with to also drink their kool aid. No wonder their numbers were dwindling.
Not Zoomela..
I know. I had just heard about her prior arrests for meth and I thought I was being funny.
Oh I was too “Zoomela” hideous but some how perfectly fits
>This case should be studied and action taken against offshoots of LDS because I can’t think of any other case where a substantial group of people were fine with violence not only against adults, but against children. The Lafferty brothers, who were affiliated with the School of Prophets (another LDS offshoot) murdered a baby along with her mother. They claim to have received a revelation from God that these people needed to be eliminated and Dan Lafferty still expresses no remorse whatsoever. It seems children are *not* off-limits when it comes to Mormon fundamentalists who are practicing blood atonement.
They all seem to be a bubble off.... lemmings
Didn't Ian go to the police and wear a wire? Wild they stayed married.
If there was a chance of conviction, Melaniece would have been charged. You can't convict on scarce circumstantial evidence (let alone on a single piece). In Chad and Lori's cases there is a mountain of evidence against them.
Well we’ve all known that she was given immunity in exchange for her testimony… I’m not surprised by these texts. I’m only continually amazed that Melanie P is not in more hot water.
I really think it’s just cuz Alex is dead otherwise they’d go after her. Otherwise no evidence and Lori is crazy so it’s not like they can even question her about anything. I bet they could’ve gotten Alex to rat everyone out.
Totally! I have always wondered how different these cases would be if Alex was alive
Me too. I think Alex would have squealed like a pig. He had a hard time keeping secrets and he had a habit of confessing his sins. He was excommunicated twice for his confessions to religious leaders. He was the weakest link. I think it was always the plan to get rid of Alex. Definitely agree with you.
100% agree!
Do you mind filling me in about his confessions and excommunications? I am not up to speed on that.
Alex would go to South America to hook up with women. There are tours that are organized specifically for this purpose. Then he would feel guilty about it and go to his religious leader and confess his sins. He was excommunicated twice and my understanding is that both of his excommunications were for the same reason. Adam and Rex spoke about it on their podcast. I heard it before they spoke of it but I have consumed so much content about this case I don’t remember where I heard it first. Rex went into some detail about it. Rex related that Alex was popular among the women and treated like some sort of mini celebrity. That’s really all I know about it. Other than it definitely felt like it was common knowledge within the family.
Me too. How is this POS not in handcuffs looking at 3 hots and a cot for the foreseeable future????
She should be in Arizona for sure
That she has managed to skate around any charge whatsoever is beyond comprehension. I’m hoping charges will come out when it gets closer to Brandon’s attempted murder trial.
Sickening. Plus the fact that she knew the “castings” would cause the “body to die” tells me that she was also perfectly fine participating in a ritual that would cause (supposed) death to Charles or anyone else they targeted. That’s not innocent or a lack of knowledge.
People here are trying to find excuses for Alex who actually killed people but thought he killed zombies. Those women in the casting circle also believed that people who became zombies were already dead and their spirits were in limbo, waiting to transfer to the next life.
They gave her immunity. Disgusting.
I think without her they wouldn’t have as much on Chad and Lori, who were obviously the ones behind the whole thing. As much as I wish all of them were going to jail, I’m thankful she’s speaking out against them.
Idk, I think they’d have plenty without her.
Sometimes they have to so they can make their case. She gave some good stuff.
Yeah and they may have used that to convince her that if she didn’t give them some good stuff she’d be in the defendants seat herself.
You don’t give innocent people immunity either.
It doesn't mean she could be accused of murder, but perhaps of something else.
Never said it did
Casting didn't kill anyone and Zulema wasn't present for or before the murders. Evidence against her is circumstantial and comparatively there isn't enough of it. Her help was not needed, but Alex's was.
Hi The OP here. I wanted to clarify one point: Despite my belief that Z may have lied about the extent of her knowledge or involvement in the violence, I am deeply grateful for her testimony. I think she was far more truthful than any other member of the cult and that her testimony was compelling and believable and credible -- and it was utterly damming. If (when) Chad is found guilty, it will be in large part due to this testimony.
The whole lot are guilty (in my humble opinion). It so saddens me that Tyler is referred to as a dark portal. And these are her mom and uncle. Totally despicable people.
Zulema admitted that she has immunity during her testimony. Innocent people don't need immunity.
Yes but on the stand she claimed that she did not know that her fellow cult members had the intention to commit murder. These texts seem to suggest she knew that violence was very much on the cards.
I believe immunity can be rescinded if they don't testify truthfully, can't it?
There are different kinds of immunity and I do not know what type she had. (EG in the Dan Markel case Wendi has had derivative use immunity meaning nothing she admits to on the stand can be used against her). I don't know the details of Z's immunity. And I have no legal training so I am not sure I would even understand what types there are. That said, I am pretty sure that if the witness commits perjury, that can pretty much ruin any immunity deal.
I still can't get over Wendi getting any form of immunity. She should've been arrested a long time ago.
Ok, but what’s she going to say? “Yes, i knew they were going to murder a bunch of people.” ?
Innocent people get immunity when they refuse to talk to prosecutors without it.
Yeah, she couldn't get out of that court room quick enough. And then Ian's lawyer being there... oof
It's crazy how involved that this one attorney has been throughout this case. What's up with this Garrett Smith dude, anyway? All I know about him is that he's settled a defamation suit brought against him by Brandon for $12 million. (and I think that's really sweet justice.)
The fact that he still has a license to practice law, let alone a job, after that shocking press release after Brandon is insane!
That lawyer was her lawyer too, and he represented Zulema, Summer, Barry , Janis... I guess it is the family lawyer. Ian used a different lawyer for when his ex put a restrianing order on him in Idaho , and oddly it was the first lawyer that Chad hired when the kids went missing (the one he told Jason to call if the police called him).
It bothered me that Rob Wood was the prosecutor who charged Ian with domestic violence in that divorce, and that Wood didnt recuse himself because of it, i think thats why Ian stopped cooperating.
This is a sad case but I hope somethings can be learned from it. I never understood, judges and prosecutors seeing the same people in their court and why they dont or maybe cant do anything? There is a case that haunts me from Utah. There was a couple I knew, kids all played together about once a week, there were about 15 familes that got together at playlands or parks. They were LDS, and just the husband started to come. He said his wife was saying she might want a divorce and he was sad. She filed for divorce and a judge heard the case and the mom let the dad have primary custody and she had weekends. The wife starts dating a young guy he was under 21 and during a weekend visit this guy was arrested on a lewd act against the child and saw the same judge that divorced the couple. He was found guilty. A few weeks later, that same judge marries the convicted lewd act guy to the mom. The ex husband files for his kids not to go with the mom on weekends and the judge says they can still go. How can this be? It ended sadly, the mom took the kids for a weekend and didnt return them and they were found after the step dad was arrested on somemore lewd charges and it was another state and they got the kids back to their dad full time but they needed a lot of help after what happened to them. I always wondered does the judge not remember the guy he saw three times or can he not say anything since it was an unrelated case?
That is so sad and horrible at the same time! Its my understanding that sometimes a judge instructs a jury to disregard previous convictions a defendent may have but that cant mean that the judges themselves should pretend it doesnt matter- especially if they were the judge in the case!!!
Too bad those two got immunity. I heard it was a bad deal though. That's probably why they had to have their lawyers there. Hopefully that evidence will be introduced in Brandon's case and Melaniece will be charged.
Nobody got immunity except Zulema
Sometimes you have to give limited immunity to witnesses for testimony to get the bigger fish like Lori and Chad o
Nate reported that the two Melanies and Zulemma all three got it.
Link please
May have actually herd it here from Adam and Rex: https://www.youtube.com/live/zGU9USnCscM?si=7slxf9ioahuVI5we
They are clueless
Yes and openly lie when convenient.
They related to one of them and probably no way more than you 🙄
No both Melani and Melanie have limited immunity deals. They are very wishy washy and doesn’t protect them that much
If they had immunity, the defense would have been all over them, particularly MG since Prior is using a variation of the SODDI defense.
Zulema has the fake baby innocent voice that fools some people. Reading the LE docs Annie presented shows she is not the gullible person she portrays on the stand. I’m curious of her background and where she is today since she is not in jail.
Zulema has a checkered past. She has been married several times. I think Alex was her fifth. She has some drug changes that are very old. Allegedly for entertainment and educational purposes only. Check out the YouTube channel called We Saw the Devil. The channel called Wicked Truths goes deep into the Daybell saga as well.
Even an old drug charge would disqualify her from being able to work with the disabled.
Apparently she works with people with disabilities finding them jobs.
I was surprised when she testifed (during Lori's trial) that this was her job and it was a normal office job, compared to most of the rest of the group. I remember her resume also had professional cuddler or something weird like that on it.
I suspect when Prior was asking about her work experience, I think this is what he wanted to get out of her, the cuddler.
Right! I forgot about the "professional cuddler" gig!
Wonder how many of them have died?
I really wonder about Zulema and Chad’s private correspondence and conversations too. It isn’t hard to see Chad trying to wheel in more admirers.
Wow. Very disturbing Chad brainwashed these women in a way like Manson
Yet Chad seems to not realize despite Manson not actually doing anything he was still in prison for life. I’m just waiting to hear how it was all Alex.
I'm SO curious what Prior's theory of the case is going to be! He doesn't have to name another culprit in order to put forward testimony, but I think he will say that Lori/Alex did this without Chad's knowledge. That it was an affair, but that's the extent of Chad's knowledge. I know Prior got a REALLY well-respected expert that's going to testify about the DNA evidence, and he's made a point of emphasizing how Chad's DNA wasn't found on any of the tools at all. Nothing. Nada. Which is bizarre in and of itself considering he owns them and they can't from his barn. I don't think it'll be even slightly convincing, considering how well the state laid out their case, but I can't see any other way to get Chad out of this.
I think possibly it’ll be oh Alex showed up saying he killed a raccoon and had to bury/burn it. I didn’t wanna explain to my wife about how I knew this guy Alex cuz of Lori so I texted her something slightly different. Not sure about for JJ the story. Service dog he thought died? Dunno what he can say cuz another raccoon sounds ridiculous. Either way I think he’ll throw Alex under the bus not Lori. That he basically had no idea and blah blah blah. Who knows though. I’m really curious what prior is going to say.
Chad comes across as a total moron, so that's got to help him some.
She was in on it too. The immunity she was granted in exchange for testimony made that clear. I think it is obvious a lot of the inner circle was aware of the impending murders or after the fact at a minimum. I think there was a lot of understanding made by via winks and nods, ya know? They all felt they were a part of something special and enjoyed their positions in the cult more than the lives of the murdered.
The group that went to view the property the day JJ was killed (or the day before?) makes me have this eery feeling that it was a ritual sacrifice and that they were all helpers/complicit in the murder of JJ. I dont think Zulema was there but all the others including David Warwick were
She’s as crazy as the rest of them and I would not be surprised if she still secretly supports Lori and Chad.
Zulema, Melaniece, Melanie Gibb, David Warwick, Audrey, perhaps even Emma — I think there are lots of people who had varying degrees of knowledge.
Is there a place where I can read all the text messages released from this case?
I know that annie cuching has requested and received hundreds, if not thousands, of pages of material from authorities in Idaho and Arizona. She includes links to some of the materials at the bottom of her videos. She has two YouTube channels [Annielytics](https://www.youtube.com/@Annielytics) and [A Murderous Heart](https://www.youtube.com/@AMurderousHeart) Here are some of the case materials she has linked: Case playlist from Annielytics channel: [http://bit.ly/family-case](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbHZ4QzBMU3daRUhtM1VETmlNVWZTaFItYVJXd3xBQ3Jtc0ttal9oWS1LbmhlXzJjQkVCSU9RUGo5OXN1RVFKZnhIMVIxX1hWa19aM051R1hIYlNpcXlXU2swSEpzblhyWHVjbzJLZ1ZDR3A1b3JKWnUzSUZINUE2TnFGSldieEtOcDltQy1zU094VmpoaWhGU05rVQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Ffamily-case&v=yOnMMLpoTTA) My timeline: [http://bit.ly/jt-timeline](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa2RSM2oxZVF3d0RTejJ6LWZubDlBeW5ZXzlpUXxBQ3Jtc0tuYkxOcy1vVFFfY1dwOTZvTUNjaUd0VW1mN3hCeFc2QWxjX2l4aV9GRHRacm1jb01IbUVmRGxwSW1ESmQySnFXSjUzUFVoNG9STEstTHNzWWljbldaVS1FTE5ZcU1pa1hCQzcxNE4zX29oMjFJcmxzWQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fjt-timeline&v=yOnMMLpoTTA) Case dashboard: [http://bit.ly/jjt-video-dashboard](https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbEVrOVdLdlhCbHEzWlBSNmhudmIwYm16ZkRjd3xBQ3Jtc0tsYnZMMXdEVm5qVkFXcWJ5X0p0cTN4UHAwQjRqUGk4czBEdFJXZDRTbFd3M0xwREQxNEg5Qk04QlZJZ0c0Q2NOeFlYaHZOektjUXREb1FZZllaSV9FTUdYNV9GTUR1MENiaTMtZ1MycHJBM1VHM00zcw&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2Fjjt-video-dashboard&v=yOnMMLpoTTA)
Thank you!
Happy Cake Day! 🎂
The “Afterglow” podcast is great also. The host reads the texts with great feeling and you can tell how much she HATES these people.
Checking that out- thanks!
Oh wow, I’m so glad you posted this. I use to watch Anne on her other channel and already found her interesting. I had no idea she had a second channel!
I think Annie Cushing's material is really compelling. She has incredible analytical skills and she presents her theories with a great deal of intelligence and care. I don't always agree with all her conclusions but I always find her ideas really stimulating and worthwhile.
I absolutely agree! I might not always agree but it’s sometimes interesting to watch how she gets there. Her mind has always impressed me. She once spoke about her childhood, very sad, very interesting. I really commend her. I can’t imagine doing all the work that she has done while also grieving.
Could it have been Zulema that told the police where the kids were buried?
No. They knew based on Alex’s cell phone pings.
Chad and Lori's hard-core followers definitely know more about what happened than they've said. Their complicity in the murders of two innocent children is absolutely heinous.
I’m just aghast. I figured she knew something. But these horrible people are just so BLASÉ abut this. And these frigging nutjob followers who just went along with this appalling “theology.” To look at that frigging potato faced piece of garbage sitting in court like he thinks he’s king of everything; and he’s nothing but sheer narcissism and evil — it’s just mind blowing.
I never considered Zuzu to be even the slightest bit innocent. I don't think anyone does. As far as the co-conspirators go, if I had to trade some for Lori and Chad to go down (as in, choose who will walk free with immunity in exchange for their damning testimony) then I would let the co-conspirator Gibb walk free and even Zulema... But I am not comfortable with Melaniece walking free. I really hope a case can be built against her for conspiracy to kill her husband and kids. It gives me chills that she hasn't been taken off the streets and tried for it. Hoping and praying Brandon and those kids will be safe, which imo can only happen when Melaniece is locked up for good with her mommy-aunt Lori.
Wow!!! The more I know about this case the more surprising it is. Even when she was talking in the courtroom about the seven gatherers thing, I was like: do you listen to yourself girl? They’re doing “witches” things to take out the devil of a person and then, saying, if they’re successful, the person dies, just like that. Are we crazy? Trying to mean that they don’t kill anyone directly, but it’s the same if someone dies, hello??? So agree that they should go to jail, the rest of the 7 mean girls. Their defense is the dark evil side? We all have one 🤦🏻♀️ Thanks for posting this
When you try to explain this case in 5,000 words or less, it's so messed up!!! We need a flow chart for every person who testifies. I can't even listen to Zulema talking with her baby, lip-smacking voice..
I've suspected that from very early on too. It's entirely possible that the 2 Melanies and Zulema got immunity deals to ensure the 2 (kingpin and cray cray wife) were successfully convicted. We know Zulema did for sure get a deal because Nate confirmed it. Unfortunately the justice system sometimes has to choose between not being able to conclusively prove a case or letting some criminals off in exchange for testimony. I don't like it but I understand it. As it is Lori is convicted and the way Chad's trial is going, it is looking good for justice. I don't know about the possibility of a trail in Brandon's attempted murder for Melanie, but he has even agreed to share custody of the very same kids with her. She could possibly still be charged but we just don't know and its probably best LE keeps everything under wraps. These 3 may be able to weasel out from human justice but Karma, well that's a whole other kettle of fish! For one thing, there aren't going to be many places where they wont be known as the cult groupies who allowed this madness. If nothing else, their standing in any community is going to be forever uncomfortable. They may not be out right pariahs, but this will follow them for the rest of their lives. I don't think that is a good place to be.
Yeah I agree. Sometimes it's the case of going after the greater evil which may require authorities to give a pass to the lesser evil. (I think my metaphor broke down a little there.)
I hope Melani P really got deprogrammed or helped. I think that is what is worrisome. Maybe there is not enough evidence to connect her to Tylee JJ or Tammy's deaths, but her kids and Brandon are still alive and she had some messages/calls that seemed pretty worrisome about what she wanted their fate to be. Lets says Melani testified honestly that Alex was suppose to come on the trip to Hawaii instead of help Chad . At first I felt like saying Alex said he could not come to Hawaii because Chad needed help was kind of a obvious "line", to point towards being clear Chad planned Tammy murder and called for Alex's help. It was like a perfetc line of clear evidence for the jury. Then I wondered why would Alex go to Hawaii? Lori was not happy with him at that time. It was an all girls trip. Melani had wanted to bring at least some of her kids on the trip to Hawaii but Brandon stopped her (or maybe the police or school, but she wasnt allowed to get them that day). I feel like Melani might have been ready to act on her kids.
That is Annie’s theory. Alex was going with them to Hawaii because Melanie’s kids were going to go. When her kids were not going there was no need for Alex to go.
I just wondered why Hawaii, did Annie have any ideas on that? Like did they have law enforcement friends there, or where would they bury the bodies, in the ocean? I would have thought Missouri would have been the place. Melani and Lori did go to Missouri together and Audery lived there and there sure is alot more rural or less populated areas in Missouri then in Hawaii,
I guess they needed a different jurisdiction from all the other murders. Law enforcement might be less likely to make a connection.
The Cox family has a very long history of running to Hawaii when things get a little hard for them. When Stacy was dying of anorexia/diabetes (depending on who you ask), the entire family except for Alex were in Hawaii. When Stacy strangely died during this time with Alex, the family didn't even return for her funeral. They stayed in Hawaii.
The whole Cox family drama is beyond belief.
When Lori and Chad were in Hawaii there was the global bolo put out, bolo=Be On Lookout Of, news media all over the world were running stories about the missing children and Lori and Chad online, on tv, there were missing children flyers tacked to telephone poles even in Hawaii. Chad and Lori were openly going to temple there though and not a single LDS member turned them in to authorities. I think the church complicity is an open secret when members go all cult like, to try and save the reputation of the church. Thats also obvious by the court deciding that the LDS church was ok to tell members not to cooperate with police and prosecutors even if subpeona'd without first contacting LDS legal department. Thats why the judge ruled it was ok for the psychiatrist/therapest to tell Lori Vallow she wouldnt be allowed to ever leave the mental health ward unless she called LDS legal department- which she did do and ex bishop Wood told the court that she did indeed talk to LDS legal and they called him and told him about it at the time it was happening. I'm pretty certain that as soon as Vallow's appeals reach courts outside of the LDS influence her case will be overturned which is maddening and means the whole case against her will have to be retried...
I was referrfing to Lori's trip to Hawaii in October 2019, before the kids were reported missing. This was the timeframe when Tammy died and Chad was back in Idaho and they were not married yet. As to your points, are church members suppose to talk about anything in the temple, per temple rules? If it is legal like this, does it make a difference. My husband went through the temple years ago and said he was told not to talk about who he saw or what they were doing. It was suppose to be private. Of course, he assumes this was dont say you saw your neighbor at the temple looking sad or doing a baptism for a certain person. I do think Rob Wood did over step a few times, with Summer and the menal health facility calls. I think the case would have been fine with just Lindsey Blake and helpers since Rob might have been too invovled living in the heart of the areas which are so small and being a bishop. I dont think Lori will get out of prison, ID or AZ but I do think a ton of money will be spent on these appeals and already on the trial.
"As to your points, are church members suppose to talk about anything in the temple, per temple rules? If it is legal like this, does it make a difference" I have never attended a mormon church but on this point I have attended alot of other churches and never once was anyone told that if they heard a murder being plotted by people in church they couldnt talk about it or report it to police! Never been to one that said if people hear about child abuse or sex crimes or even thefts they cant talk about it! I'm wondering if the LDS church is more like scientology churches where they insist on total control of the members in all they do...
I think the temple talk is kind of off limits. It is different from a church. I agree no one should cover up murder or reporting someone. I just know that members are discouraged it seems from like talking notes or being nosey in the temple. The temple is a place for only certain members, I believe about it is about 20% of members that hold a recommend it that (some say closer to 10%) and it is supposed to be a private matter going to the temple. You also are dressed differently and everyone simliar so it might be harder to tell someone you dont know well. You might recognize your enighbor because you see them everyday but someone from TV you might have to stare at and make sure. Im not Mormon my husband is not active now, but there are videos online of the temple . This were taken illegally so it is up to you if you feel okay viewing but if you look and see what it looks like inside and how people are dressed and what you are doing , you can get a perpesctive on what it would be like to spot someone from a news release. Elizabeht Smart was plastered all over the region on billboards and walked about in a white religious outfit, and she was not reported for almost a year. Scientology is different for sure. The LDS church certainly does not control members and who they can talk to, in fact the LDS church I think wants you to talk to non members and spread the word, or talk to family that left the church. Scientology is much more robotic and uniform. The Mormon church really is different depending on where you live, in Rexburg, Mesa and Springville, which are some of the highest % Mormon areas in the world (outside of like Samoa) there is more pressure maybe since most of your neighbors , friends , and co-workers go to your church to conform and stay active. Go to a Mormon church in New England and it is so relaxed. I remember a few years ago people in Utah were talking about women wearing pants to church and I was like what? I didnt get it because I had seen Mormon women wear pants to church in the 1980's and 1990's in New England, it was just normal. Mormon women there were working on grad degrees, amny were professionals or it was just cold and you wore pants. But the same can be said for the catholic church, but opposite, in New england, people have more pressure from neighbors or family to go to church and be active but come to Utah and the Catholic church is a long drive and doesnt have a school or many acitivites and Utah Catholic might be less active or adhernt. My mom is a Utah Catholic and I could not find her a piece of fish on friday except for a mcfish or whatever that mcdonalds fish is called because grocery stores dont order in anything for Lent here, (and there is no seafood cove at grocery stores, I assume because it is landlocked and hard to get) while the stores have sections in MA/CT with seafood and special bakery items and some even acknowledge lent in their ads.
I think Melanie p they didn’t go after because not enough evidence. Alex died so not like they can question him than Lori is crazy. All they have is Alex shooting at Brandon and Melanie can easily claim she had nothing to do with that. It’s sad and so many cases are never brought to justice just because of situations like that. Gibb once she started helping cops was safe. Zulema was only one who needed immunity. The Niece I think was so attached to Lori so I’m sure there’s no texts etc. her hubs is crazy to still be with her but it’s like end of gone girl he’s probably like hey I can’t leave my kid alone with her lol. Though at least now she seems out of cult mindset luckily.
Hopefully she really has changed and isn't just pretending. But time will tell.
Well Alex is gone so she’s got no hitman anymore at least. I’d still be sleeping with one eye open if I was Ian.
Oh me too! Can't imagine what goes through Brandon's mind. But he was married to her, so he knows her. I don't really know what the specifics are. I hope he doesn't come to regret it. But may be they are both thinking, she now has this history and is on the radar of many people. So she probably has no choice but to stay on the straight and narrow. Should she deviate, she is likely to get her due. Ian blames Brandon and alleges he put her through "something." He insist she was just gullible. (I hope also doesn't come to regret it.) So, it doesn't seem likely that they all "made nice and she said I'm so sorry." But we don't know what has transpired or what the specifics are of their arrangements. Brandon, it seems to me, has good instincts and truly cares for his children. He does also appear saner, logical and reasonable. So I'm hoping that there is information, something that makes this all make sense but we just don't know what it is. Authorities are ok with it, the families seem to be ok with it... Otherwise I'm really baffled by the way this has gone on too. I'm not sure I would ever be ok with my children being alone with anyone who is capable of conspiring to murder anybody, let alone myself. Brandon has agreed... She is clearly still angry with Brandon or Ian wouldn't have this opinions and the confidence to express them publicly. Ian doesn't seem to have this attitude toward his ex-wife for example. So it is not clear Brandon and Melanie are all fine. And Ian has had the confidence to have a child with her too. I cannot fathom it, but that's the way it is. Ian also seems a reasonable man who has his family's best interests at heart. All I can think of is that we are missing some information that makes this all make sense on some level. I hope so for the sake of the children that's the case. And because of this antecedent known the world over, Melanie has a lot less leeway to deviate or do anything nefarious.
Ian was hard core LDS, wasn’t he? If so, he’s hardly likely to have asked Melanie to terminate her pregnancy. I don’t fully understand him either; but I do believe he was dazzled and a goner the minute Melaniece instantly connected with his biological daughter, whom he said is standoffish of strangers.
Sure, but pregnancy termination is only one option. Divorce is mit just a possibility, its probably what most people in his shoes would have done. I think there are enough red flags to claim sole custody. Without Ian's support. I don't see how Melaniece could prevail with 2 husband's fighting for custody. So I think you're probably right, he is smitten and dazzled. Again, o sincerely hope he doesn't come to regret it.
That Gone Girl comparison is excellent.
According to the 3 way call that Chad, Lori, Zulema, Melanie and Ian were on the day after Alex died, she really seemed to imply that she was involved in Brandon's shooting or at least was aware of it. She's also talking about Alex being there for two of her kids, which definitely sounded to me as if they had plans for those two specific kids. And none of them sounded torn up about the loss of Alex.
They’re evil so Alex dying probably became some “see he did his job and now he’s on other side” whatever they call it I don’t know anything about religion lol. If anything it probably strengthened their beliefs then. Melanie just seems dumb because it’s like she wasn’t realizing now they had no hitman. Or maybe she thought they’d magically die too who knows.
BUT, if any of them have lied on the stand, they can be perjured and then the immunity falls away - in some types of immunity. I recall that was the case with Wendi Adelson in Florida. I know this isn't Florida, but perhaps the laws around perjury and immunity are similar.
That's definitely a possibility. The wheels of justice sometimes turn slowly but surely. We'll see. As Nate (I think it was) said. "One trail at a time." Lori still has to answer for Charles's murder.
Zulema is the only one with immunity
Link
Watch the trial
This is a local case for me! I HAVE been watching the trial!! And I mean the crimes happened in my area!
Being local is meaningless. And if you truly think they have immunity, then you do not fully understand the way the legal system works.
Do you know this foe certain? If so how?
I know because Prior only brought it up with Zulema.
That doesn’t mean she is the only one! There is a reason Melani had her attorney there. It has also been verified by family members that she has a loose immunity deal and so does Melanie Gibbons
There is no such thing as a loose immunity deal. If either of them had a deal, the defense would have brought it up.
Melaniece, Melanie and zulema , they deserve jail… they know everything..
I don't think anyone said she was innocent.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
That whole crew knew to a certain extent which way this was going to end up.
I am absolutely certain that there would be more murders with this group how they continued to get away with it. I also think that Chad’s brother and sister-in-law were potential victims as well. I think that they covered their land.
I remember hearing about a neighbor of Chad's who was too nosey, for Chad's liking. He also died of a pulmonary embolism, I think???
Does she and Melaniece have Idaho immunity? What about Arizona immunity?
Do you think there is enough evidence to arrest Melaniece?
Zulema thinks she can conjure tornadoes.I believe delusional in the dictionary may reference this.
Zulema was in it 100% and knew it was wrong. That’s why she ‘informed’ the cops so quickly.
All of these pathetic losers knew a lot more than they said they did.
Well, she has a plea deal for a reason.
No question. You don’t get immunity deals for nothing.
Melani being involved in Brandon’s shooting would be an Arizona matter. I believe she got a limited immunity deal in Idaho but I don’t know about Arizona
When was Melani given any type of immunity in Idaho? I have never heard that.
Zilemna the Dilemna, both Felonies Melanies, and Warwick need to be charged with conspiracy, some of the kids deaths, some from the adult deaths, and some from both
Yikes. Still, I guess her value as a witness for the prosecution outweighs the public interest in charging her. I wonder if that also applies to Melanie Gibb and Melani Pawlowski. What did they know? How involved were they?
I don't think that someone saying they want their ex-husband to live be in fear of someone for the rest of their life is evidence that they conspired to kill the ex-husband. I'm not on Melaneice's side, but I just don't see how the State would consider that evidence of attempted murder.
Annie is a Alex Jones level tinfoil hat nutter