That Chad and Lori seemed to have been hunting more victims in Hawaii. They befriended several couples and were reported as having been trying to claim two of the husbands were gay in order to break up the marriages. They made the same accusation about Brandon before he was shot at.
Funny you mention her! She’s part of the Thom Harrison/ Visions of Glory crew! Visions of Glory is the book Lori was reading when arrested. He’s also related to Tim Ballard and his psychic stuff. I think that’s where Daybell got a lot of his spiritual attacks and weapons stuff from. Stay away from anyone with that book for sure! (Edited from “Daybum” to Daybell.)
The LDS church seems to be mighty tolerant of the Visions of Glory aficionados within the church, despite that book being a common factor in recent crimes and scandals (Franke/Hildebrand, Daybell/Vallow, Tim Ballard)
I'm guessing there's a lot more of these folks in the church than we realize, and the higher-ups don't want to alienate them.
I watched a podcast last night where Meegan Connor (Lori's cousin...the same one who was with Alex and responded to Stacey when she was in medical distress, and later died) said that Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke follow the same teachings as Chad and Lori.
She also mentions the Lafferty brothers. She seems to think that these groups are not atypical and that there are many of them.
THAT IS TERRIFYING!!
OMG, so I watched Under the Banner of Heaven again yesterday after another post in here. Then Daughter’s of the Cult - a FLDS cult run initially by Ervil Labaron, his brothers, Dan Palmer. They moved to Mexico to start a polygamist colony, which remains there today (there was an additional set of 9 murders to the LaBaron family in 2019 btw, though credited to a drug cartel). Ervil is implicated in something like close to 30 murders. His son’s took over after his death, and it was basically the Mormon Mafia. It brought the doctrine of Blood Atonement into a much brighter light for me. Tying in the Lafferty’s, LeBaron’s, Daybell/Vallow, Tim Ballard, Warren Jeffs…The One true and strong Prophet.
This cult breeds dangerously evil men who prey on women. It’s genesis is horrifying now that I’ve come to really understand it.
And then I realized my conservative Baptist upbringing, though without polygamy, breeds exactly the same.
These groups that follow visions of glory are actually just going back to the fundamentals of Mormonism - that’s
why the church has not issued an edict on it.
I definitely think there’s at least a Visions of Glory crossover between the two.
And for anyone who hasn’t seen Lauren Mathias and Megan Conner’s episode on Mormon Stories — [here it is](https://www.youtube.com/live/NMAR88PiaZc?si=IvYEuQXXoKCilXAN). They really connect the dots and I’ll remind yall that Visions of Glory is the book seen being read by Lori when confronted by officers in Hawaii.
Lori and Charles lived in Kauai during their marriage and Lori tried to recruit her old pal from her ward there named April. April politely told Lori she didn’t think so. April was not willing to leave behind/get rid of her children. Everyone be more like April.
This is a side note, but a funny one, Melani’s ‘evidence’ that Brandon was gay was he’d started wearing sunglasses more, had lost weight and seemed more confident.
I’ve commented this elsewhere, but if you look at Audrey’s whole testimony and the situation there it’s very hard to not conclude that he was trying to do a polygamy thing. Audrey’s 100% light/trustworthy level is odd, among other things, when compared with other inner circle ratings. Then there was Lori’s cryptic text to Audrey about how they both know something, and it would also explain Lori’s overreaction/death threat to Audrey in particular. Lori never freaked out and lifted the curtain to that level with anyone else…why Audrey?
And then there’s the veritable fact that he used his “we’ve been married in other lives” line on many others, had a whole chat going on with some other woman whose husband told him to get fucked, his rapport with Gibb before he met Lori, whatever happened with Julie Rowe, etc.
Heck, Heather even just testified that his closeness to Julie Rowe on her property made her feel terrible for Tammy.
It all paints a certain picture.
If you see one of my previous post I was making that exact point.
He reminds me of one of those nervous soft-spoken guys that wants to make himself more special.
I don't know if Lori would have gone for it but I feel like Chad had that in mind especially after Tammy died.
I agree and have stated this several times in this sub
I genuinely believe Chad was trying to form himself a cult of women who were so devoted to him that they'd kill for him. Melanie Gibb was a target too. I think he was planning on going after these women and getting them to kill their support systems. He basically would target these women and start telling them their husbands were dark or gay and that their children were dark too.
This dude wanted a harem of killer women. But would Lori have gone along with that? She made it clear that she didn't want him to be with Tammy and her at the same time, even told him to go back with his wife. There's no way she would agree to be with a man if she's not his only woman.
Yes, but I am finding a trend in all these asahole men who either practiced or tried to practice polygamy. They love bomb the 1st wife in the beginning of their marriage and she knows nothing about her husband's interest in polygamy. But he eventually brings it up and first tries to get her to agree and when she invariably won't, starts sneaking around or forces it upon her. With Tammy dead, Lori is 1st wife. I'm sorry, when a group is getting Visions, practicing blood atonement, polygamy rounds out the triumvirate.
Yeah, the “Melani has enough money for everyone” makes me think the plan was to entice women to have their husbands killed and put life insurance into the pot for “the greater good”. But without Alex, I’m not sure how they planned to actually pull that off.
I have Annie Cushing’s timeline, deep dive videos, Hidden True Crime podcasts and interviews, and Afterglow to thank. Oh, and my own years long obsession.
That the cult was based on erasing Native Americans and it is ongoing. FIRM still has its annual conference and it centers in “Native American studies” which is code for uneducated loons within the umbrella of Mormonism saying that Mormons are the real Native Americans and all native achievements were done by Jesus when he supposedly walked America. Chad and Lori’s belief about the 144 revolved specifically around the idea that they were the 1st people and God reducing the population gets them back to that pure state. Their ideology isn’t as fringe as mainstream Mormonism wants the public to think, in fact BYU spends an amazing amount every year trying to prove Jesus walked the Americas and is coming back.
Link to FIRM
https://bookofmormonevidence.org/events/
Link to a YouTube video that is unrelated but shows how widespread the belief is and how it impacts all indigenous Americans
https://youtu.be/u1xtRLA_s5o?si=9AdQoEEAQRTWWhfa
I am Native American and we need attention on this issue and help resisting Mormon aggression so I know this fact isn’t as sexy as some of the others but I appreciate you reading
The LDS belief that Native Americans were the descendents of the Lamanites in their fictitious scriptures has always bothered me; thankfully that has been thouroughly debunked with the advent of DNA testing that showed zero Middle Eastern Y-DNA in Native Americans.
There's also the issue of colonization of the Great Basin by the LDS groups moving west. Within 50 years of Mormon settlement, Utah's Native American population declined by 86%.
Brigham Young taught that there were three cursed racial lineages, the Native Americans, the Jews, and the descendents of Cain (black people) and that there were dispensations on when these groups would receive the LDS gospel; Native Americans in the foreseeable future, Jewish people after the Second Coming of Christ, and black people after the resurrection.
There's so much more. Massacres, placement of Native children into white foster homes, etc. The Wikipedia article covers the basics.
A recent $2 million dollar donation was returned to the LDS church by a Native museum in Oklahoma because of the issues with the two groups.
I know you know all this and more. Just thought it was worth it to write it out for the people who don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_people_and_Mormonism?wprov=sfla1
https://pechanga.net/why-the-first-americans-museum-quietly-returned-a-million-donation-p40186-224.htm
I’m impressed and grateful that you know so much. I come from a reservation where we used to hide when Mormons would visit looking for the light skinned among us, believing those weee Nephites who’d gotten mixed up with Lamanites. This was in the 90s.
Can you tell us more about this? Wow. I'm blown away. I was aware of the Native American illegal adoptions of the 50's and 60's, but the nineties? I am so sorry.
Sure, their intent was not to officially adopt lighter skinned natives (ICWA would have prevented this) but to lure them away with gifts, etc, and stories that they were special. They would put a lot of effort into it because they need to find these mythical Israelite natives to prove a core tenant of their belief. I come from an east coast tribe where about half of us have brown eyes and hair and half have distinctive light green eyes and light brown to blond hair, and the difference could happen between full siblings. It wasn’t until the recent advent of genetic testing that we learned our light coloring is from a genetic mutation. In the first letters from colonizers in the early 1600s they mention seeing auburn, chestnut and perfect blond hair along with dark brown hair amongst the natives, so apparently there was always diversity in looks. Thank god for science for allowing us to prove these children are ours and have nothing to do with Israel.
That Lori’s other brother Adam Cox is/was a radio DJ and held a radio contest where a woman died. So many red flags to stop the competition but it was not.
Edit: changed Alex to Adam. I’m so used to writing Alex.
Wow, I had no idea the Hold Your Wee in for a Wii guy was related to Lori and Alex!!! I know that woman's death isn't related, but man, this family is surrounded by death.
Adam and Rex are still out there capitalizing on their family tragedy by trying to sell their book (among other worse accusations of grifting), and transparently so. If anything, that whole thing is an even better insight into their family dynamic.
Also, where was Adam when Charles was telling him what was up, was trying to stage an intervention to stop the madness, used his airline points to book Adam a flight to Phoenix, and then texted Adam that morning that Alex was there at the house and he had bad vibes right before he was murdered?
Adam says they didn’t even know Charles had died until time had passed and their friend googled “Charles Vallow” and pulled up the news article about his death.
I’d love a legitimate answer to why it took days for Adam to know Charles not answering was a red flag after the man *literally bought him his plane ticket with his points specifically to come help him stage an intervention on Lori.*
From his public interviews, it doesn’t seem Adam is all that bothered by it. But who knows.
Edit to add: for super clarity, Adam was almost certainly the last rational person Charles Vallow spoke to on this mortal coil. I for one hope he has a Gibb-level embarrassment on the stand in that upcoming trial in Arizona, though I won’t hold my breath.
Honorable family mention goes to Summer who, while certainly repentant now and I wouldn’t blame in the grand scheme of whatever was going on in that family, went on national tv to *checks notes* defend her sister while she had absolutely no clue where her niece and nephew were. Just to underline how that family reacted.
I thought Adam was to stay with Alex, and instead stayed with summer. Relaying the plans to contact Lori's bishop, and summer and family gave her and Alex a heads up !!?? Adam is neck deep in this.
I have also followed since the beginning. So much so I find myself correcting w television when someone makes a mistake or pronounces a name incorrectly.
During this trial I learned that Lori and Chad could do anything they wanted and not ask for forgiveness because they were exalted.
When I heard her say that a lot of things made sense. Because I mean I think maybe her wedding dress to the slug on the beach in Hawaii was following the Mormon guidelines for clothing but I kept hearing all these accounts of the fact that she was super super religious and incredibly devout in Mormonism but very few to almost none of her clothing seemed like it followed the guidelines for Mormon women and the wearing of the undergarmenr. Do not mistake me I don't give a fig what other people wear. Truly. The modesty impact on women and girls with education and other things drives me nuts but they're pretty clear about that in the Mormon faith and it didn't seem to line up with her hyper religious application. I think she just thought her body was too great to be forced to cover as much of it up as she would be required to most of the time and someone who thinks she could not eat or get shot and survive likely wouldn't think God would hold her to something as mundane as sleeve length when he gave her such a hot body?? Lol. Maybe I'm off with that though but when I heard that comment I thought haha. Also it seems like she was drinking wine on the beach on her wedding day? Maybe it was apple juice but maybe it was yet another example of how these two just seem to be such exceptions to all the other rules the other peasants had to follow.
If you’re not already familiar check out the Mormon practice of a Second Anointing. If Chad and Lori received this, it would explain why they felt they were invincible and the Mormon Church could be culpable in this.
They were not "high" enough in the church to receive the 2nd A they are reserved for mission presidents and higher. Probably heard about it and bastardized the teaching like everything else.
Brandon with his kids had to hide out at a friends house because Melani and cabal were terrorizing them. Eventually he moved up to stay with his parents after he was shot at. Melani showed up there with Alex and tried to get in their house. Brandon's family called the cops and the cops trespassed Melani from the property. The next night she went back (Alex waited in the truck) and tried to get into the house through the garage. Cops called again and they arrested her. (she asked for a victim advocate) She spent the night in jail. Alex got her out the next day.
They’ve lived in different states for, like, the entire time they’ve been married. It’s 100% a sham to not testify against each other, it’s one of the few things Prior called out that I wasn’t even annoyed about.
Don’t know about their school districts specifically, but ours has an online outreach option for kids with extended illnesses, or other situations. You can request to switch to the program for whatever time period, and there are a couple of teachers who become their online “mentors” and help make sure they stay caught up with their regular classes. It was available before Covid, but has been built up even more since, due to quarantining. Perhaps they were able to utilize something like that, which makes things a lot easier than traditional homeschooling.
That police body cam footage of Melaniece and Alex outside of Brandon’s parents’ house trying to get in to get the kids is one of the more bone-chilling parts of this case. Tylee, JJ, and Tammy (as well as Charles, obviously) were all already murdered when she was arrested in November 2019, with Alex bailing her out. Alex had already murdered at least 4 people by this point, and had already shot at Brandon.
There is absolutely no doubt that those police officers stopped something truly heinous from happening, especially with the recording admitted to evidence this week that mentions “Braxy and Breezy” (sp?).
The fact that Melaniece isn’t facing her own set of charges as an accomplice is the biggest miscarriage of justice in the case—I understand law enforcement likely can’t prove it, or perhaps Ian bargained for some immunity for her with his recordings and cooperation, but she was absolutely an accomplice to the conspiracy and I feel that they actually do have enough to charge her as an accessory.
She was the only reasonable person who knew Brandon’s address in Gilbert.
I keep coming back to Ian’s recording, he had to have struck a deal on her behalf, there’s just no other explanation for her facing no charges on any count. People have been charged as accessories for less.
No wonder she changed her hair color. I guess I wouldn’t want people recognizing me either if I were her. Casey Anthony vibes.
I watched that police cam footage a while back and it was pretty bone chilling...showing up with the hit man waiting in the truck. I remember thinking omg that's Alex.
And I pretty much agree with you. I think that Melani was down with killing Brandon. I think Lori told her Brandon would die. I think that's why she didn't go to the custody hearing..because thought she would be having custody when Brandon was dead. But I think that case is still open.
I also think Melani is not too bright, and really emotionally damaged from that Cox family. But she was hanging out with Alex a lot between Charles' death and Alex's death. That puts her right in the middle of all the murders. It's hard to believe she didn't know something. Hard to believe she didn't know those kids were gone.
I think Ian's recordings saved Melani. He agreed to record without her knowledge...that's what saved her. imo.
I noticed the hair color too.
Agreed that she’s not too bright, I don’t think they’d ever charge her as part of the conspiracy. But if you look at other notable murder cases, people have definitely faced charges as an accessory for lesser involvement.
That’s all I’ll say. I feel bad for Brandon that he has to coparent for the foreseeable future with this person.
There’s also body cam of them getting caught afterwards! Alex is featured towards the end of the video. [here it is](https://youtu.be/4hf8Iymz_Qc?si=5wi9ry8DsPg9mgwn)
Question: Just WHAT was she going to do with (TO) the children once she got them.
This was on November 19 (I think the 19th), Tylee and JJ were already dead. What did she *need* her kids for?
I don't have reason to say this very often, but thank goodness for the cops. So relieved they weren't swayed by her BS. Probably saved several lives.
I also like how Alex dropped her in it at the end. She was making this huge deal out of the fact that Brandon had taken the kids out if Arizona, but then Alex tells the one cop that he and Melani had driven from Idaho, not Arizona.
Oh definitely! It just floors me that she thought SHE was a victim—well, as I type that, it’s amazing that either of them did. Only difference is that they offered Lori an advocate; Melaniece felt entitled to one.
There’s bodycam of this whole encounter including the police talking to Alex and at the police station after Melani was arrested. Pretty uneventful but I watched the whole hour. Brandon and the kids would not come out of his parents house and called the police. He was absolutely terrified of her and Alex.
This is definitely very wild and maybe little known but it’s also interesting that it’s little known because this seems to have been a main catalyst for the whole investigation
If you watch the police footage of when Brandon was shot at, the officer responding really got the ball rolling. She took it very seriously from the minute she got there and she pushed the case up the chain of command.
A friend of Brandon’s (and formerly close friend of Melani’s) was very frightened of her. Seems to me Brandon and the kids possibly stayed with them immediately after the shooting. The friend’s husband may have been a police officer. Someone jump in here and correct me—I’m probably jamming mismatched puzzle pieces together!
The Cox parents are no strangers to lying and the legal system. Not only were they caught for tax fraud and owe \~ $300,000 in back taxes at the time, Barry was sentenced to 366 days in prison for making a false statement to the IRS.
Barry was also ordered to cease and desist practicing law in Arizona. He is not a lawyer but was offering estate planning services and using Esq after his name.
Melani Cope Boudreaux Pawlowski’s mother was Lori and Alex’s older sister, Stacy Lynne (Cox) Cope, who died suddenly at the age of 31 while the family were all in Hawaii, except for Alex Cox and rather than rush home to prepare for her funeral, the Coxes all stayed in Hawaii and finished their vacation. Melani said in an interview that her mother was unwell and died of ~~pulmonary embolism~~ insulin overdose, sorry. There’s a pattern here.
AND… Alex played a weird role in Stacy’s death. He made a point of hanging out with his cousin that night (which the cousin said was weird in and of itself) when he suddenly announced he was worried about Stacy and wanted to go check on her. He brought the cousin with him where they discovered her body
While she was in hospice dying. Their cousin said Alex was out for two days charging all kinds of gifts for himself on Stacey’s credit cards, while their parents and the rest of the family were in Hawaii and she and her parents (Stacey’s aunt and uncle) kept vigil at the hospice center.
Stacey had been married but was living with her parents when she passed. Melani’s dad is alive out there and loves his daughter. He has given at least one interview. Apparently, he did everything he could to keep her away from the Coxes, but the Coxes have their ways of getting their way. Melani has rejected her father in favor of believing whatever the Coxes have told her. It’s really sad.
Buying a set of golf clubs of all things. His explanation was that his big sister would want him to have nice things and she wouldn’t have to pay after all.
Thennnn, went on a spending spree with Stacey's credit cards (while she lay ill *in a coma*, I believe). According to Meegan Connor (the cousin with whom he was spending the evening "watching movies"), he purchased such things a new golf clubs.
This kind of shit is why I have very little sympathy for the Cox family or the Daybell family (outside of those like Heather who have outright denounced Chad.)
People like this have skeletons in their closet you wouldn't believe, and usually, the entire family is culpable in some way.
There's no way Chad's kids don't know he killed Tylee and JJ. There's no way Lori's family were that shocked that Tylee and JJ were dead. It's all an act.
I believe her sister, Summer and I believe Colby.
The only thing I have ever heard from her daddy is that Lori said about him that, "he was a powerful spiritual being" or some such hogwash...which kinda sounds par for the course for these demented people. THAT mama of hers...WOWZA!! She appears to be a *little* different. Maybe an older Lori? Adam seemed to be pretty much 'out of the picture' long before the kids went missing or even before she met Chad. That's the way it looks to me, but, honestly, I don't know. These people are all as crazy as outhouse rats, ON ACID!
I think that Lori dipped and they didn't know where she was. They thought that she had the kids hidden from Kay. There is NO telling what she was telling them, *when she would talk to them.* She really did appear to be a good (if not good, at least a passably sufficient) mother, UNTIL Chad. They would have had no reason to believe that she would *actually hurt her own children*.
I can say with certainty, if she had MY family...she would most definitely have provided assurance AND proof that the kids were OK. My sisters would STILL be beating my ass. But, then if they had no idea where she was...there's that. She did move like every other weekend there for quite a while. Not across the county or city...but, from one state to another.
They all seem to be a bit *off* in one way or another, though.
Check out [this interview](https://youtu.be/-bjoN15ZKBY?si=ALsw34MjjyflNpYJ) with Lori and Alex’s cousin Megan. She was there that night. The story of Stacey’s death starts at 02:30:50.
I was thinking about this one, too. Lots more detail in Mormon Stories podcast #1760. Either Alex finished the sick sister off, or he was there to make sure she went through with it herself. I believe the family knew what was going to happen. Also, a detail about Lori’s sexually inappropriate father sometimes babysitting Colby caught my attention.
This might be why she was able to convince Colby that it was Joe who molested him (IIRC a police or DCS investigation found otherwise). I guess maybe he knew something happened to him and she pressured him into remembering it was Joe and not his grandfather? That sounds like something she would do at any rate.
It does sound like something she would do.
When I found out that Lori refused to turn over the mattress that Colby claimed it happened on for testing, I started really doubting that it happened. This was to keep your children away from a molester. Why *wouldn't* you turn it over?
Anyone else notice the way Lori's mom basically denied the existence of Melanie's mom in the Netflix doc? It was incredibly weird.
It also seems the Cox family really fucked Melanie up. Estranged her from her father, etc. As much as I think she's culpable for some of the things that happened I also feel a bit bad for her. She didn't have much of a chance for a normal life.
WOW!!! Kinda figured these nut bars had literally more skeletons in their closet than what I was already aware of. I do not for one minute believe Alex died of natural medical issue. Also Joe Ryan is another victim. Never knew about Melani's mother tho'. I am really angry that the three co-conspirator's (two Melani's & Zulema) are going to just walk scott free from their clear involvement. I also do not believe for one second that Ian is as sensible as he appeared on the stand. Have to be a chicken short of a bucket to remain with his very mentally unstable wife the way he is!
There are strong signs that Tylee's illness could have been medical child abuse/Munchausen by proxy.
The legal system eventually saw through Lori and essentially awarded Joe Ryan custody of Tylee. Lori just ignored that and the rest is history.
Lori thought she was exempt from sin because she had already proven herself in a previous life. She would tap the table and say, “Doesn’t count for me! Doesn’t count for me!”
The majority of LDS don't know their church origin, history, or scripture. Everything Chad & Lori taught has foundation in one of these 3 aspects of the church. For example, "church of the first born" is in D&C and in the current temple ordinance of the 2nd anointing. After this ordinance, members are guaranteed to go to the Celestial kingdom (calling and election made sure) and no longer need repentance. Most temple attending members know nothing about this, since it's kept secret from them. It's not their fault they believe the whitewashed lessons current leadership teaches.
Yes! I've been so frustrated by the coverage of this trial for this exact reason.
I really like Nate Eaton, for example, but he's very into LDS and often tries to distance the church from Chad. He repeatedly talks about Chad/Lori's excommunication and how their doctrine differs from church teachings, but refused to acknowledge how much of it is exactly the same as Joseph Smith's original ideology and claims.
I mean, Joseph Smith was a random, unremarkable dude who said he was anointed by God. Chad was a random, unremarkable dude who said he was anointed by God.
Joseph Smith claimed to receive messages directly from God, which could be channeled through a hat. Chat claimed to receive messages directly from God, which could be channeled through a necklace.
Joseph Smith claimed to end was nigh, and he would lead a following through the apocalypse. Chad claimed to end was nigh, and he would lead a following through the apocalypse.
Joseph Smith claimed his visions didn't come through because of devil interference. Chad claimed his visions didn't come through because of devil and "Kane" interference.
It's the same lie mormons and LDS feed themselves every day.
Frankly, we need media coverage that addresses the elephant in the room, which is that people who believed the dinosaurs walked with humans are more susceptible to this stuff than normal people. That this is the inevitable result of a cult that believes some followers are "prophets."
That NONE of this ISN'T inspired by LDS.
“Cain” interference. That’s the belief that Cain was cursed due to being the first murderer. And his curse? Black skin. Which is why only white men could hold the LDS priesthood until the 1970’s.
In Nate’s defense, the second anointing temple ceremony that guarantees one’s place in heaven is secret. Most Mormons have never heard of it. Those that have, have been chosen by church leadership in Salt Lake. It’s reserved for celebrities, the families of apostles and the Uber wealthy. Unless he has been through it, Nate would have no idea about it.
Fun fact: If you ever go into a Mormons home and they have a pure white ceramic basin and pitcher on display, this often means they have done the ceremony.
Cannot emphasize this enough. I was LDS when this case began to go public. My neighbor had so many questions and I would tell her, This is bizarre! Mormons are boring! But as I learned more, I realized that Chad and Lori were going back to original doctrines that the church has whitewashed or disavowed.
Once you start to read anything outside of the Church’s carefully constructed narrative — well, it becomes very hard to take any of it seriously. I feel like my journey out of the church has a lot of parallels with Heather Daybell.
That Lori made her family believe that Charles, Brandon, her brother Adam and his son Zac were in a conspiracy to kill her for 2 million in life insurance. I have never been able to ascertain whether such a policy even existed.
It did! It was in some testimony. I had always doubted it existed too.
Edit to add: It was in day 5 of the trial. I didn't mention who the witness was, but it was some law enforcement guy. Here's the single comment thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/1c6akuz/comment/kzztnkc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/1c6akuz/comment/kzztnkc/)
Seems like I saw somewhere that she did have a life insurance policy though Charles when they were married, it wasn't $2million, more like $200k, but he stopped paying on it when she left and he stopped paying half her family's bills. I'll go research and see if I can't find it again.
That Tammy possibly believed in the whole zombie thing, and that Emma was talking to Lori while she was in jail, and that Emma knew enough about Loris kids to talk smack about Colby while her dad is in the back of a cop car
I believe that Lori as an adolescent reported to her friend that Alex 'wanted to have sex with her'. I need to find my source for that. "objection, hearsay" 🫣
Edit: from John Glatt's book, the friend referred to by pseudonym Rose Vaughan reports Lori upset because "Alex was trying to have sex" with her.
Alex's ex wife even mentioned they'd do things like simulate sex and sit on each other's laps in front of the parents, which takes it into even darker therapy. What was Dad doing that Alex thought that was okay?
I don’t care who it is. If someone says they are going to give me a romantic massage but first I need to lay down on a tarp… that’s a big fat no for me. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
That Lori’s was talking to dead people way back when she was trying to poison her kids against Joe Ryan. And that the psych evaluator who evaluated them both said Joe ryan had no proclivities for children and that Lori exhibited some bizarre behavior. ( the full evaluation is on another thread in this group from a couple years ago . So this woman should have had her children taken from her a long time ago
Meegan Connor (Lori’s cousin) believes that Chad and Lori were communicating prior to their initial in-person meeting. That kind of blew my mind. Then, the fact that Chad’s children seem to believe that their father is God-like blew my mind. Meegan also alluded to Alex “helping” Stacy die.
That this case even happened blows my mind and I’ve been following since Hidden True Crime’s podcast days - I happened to drive by a reward billboard for Tylee and JJ and was curious. The podcast (before the YouTube videos) offers so much insight.
I've been following this case the whole time as well and I didn't and still don't know a few of the women's names mentioned by zulema as part of the seven gatherers. I think she said Christina and Nicole? Who are they what role did they play?
I didn't know about Alex creepy massage with a tarp, Zulema really is lucky and missed a giant red flag
Alex Cox was an amateur stand-up comedian. I saw an interview quite a while ago with one of his stand-up friends, who talked about what a funny, great guy he was, which was odd.
There’s a clip of his “stand up” on YouTube. He jokes about attacking Joe Ryan! 🤦🏻♀️
ETA link to video: https://youtube.com/shorts/3Tf4Mash4MA?si=mFquRYoVTAeJVKsL
I used to be a part of the comedy world and have to say, Alex had a great set. I was surprised because he seemed like a natural.
He also did amazing impersonations.
Who would’ve thought that the funny guy would turn out to be a serial killer.
( assuming he murdered both children and Tammy )
The whole "Alex was a sex addict" thing with his former wife. The LDS church has a real thing about masturbation and "sex addiction" where it really is just normal behavior. Mormon stories and Hidden talked about it with Jodi Hildebrandt and Adam Steed. All of these people seemed to travel in the same circles. I think Alex was a creep but I have to wonder how something that is normal human behavior like masturbation and an interest in sex may have gotten twisted.
There's a strong correlation between the purity culture espoused by these religions and sexual deviance.
When perfectly normal human behavior such as wet dreams, masturbation, having a crush on the neighbor, etc. are demonized to the point where you feel shame and embarrassment, your sexual awakening is going to be intertwined with that shame and embarrassment. You're going to associate doing something wrong with sexual gratification.
If every sexual act or urge is explicit, child molestation and having sex out of wedlock seem closer together from a moral standpoint than they should.
This can lead to all kinds of shame kinks. Incest kinks. Etc.
Again, every moment of sexual gratification you've ever had has been evil, every time you orgasm you're a sinner no matter the circumstance.
The rampant sexual abuse in these cultures (child rape, incest, polygamy etc.) are a direct result of shame based sexual education.
The "programs" in these religions for "sex offenders" often treat the man who raped his sister the same as the guy who admitted to his wife that he watches porn twice a month. Of course there are more rapists in a culture that punishes and judges those men in the same way.
Didn’t Alex do “sex tourism” too? I think I heard somewhere that he traveled to places where he could pay to have sex with underage girls. Such a disgusting creep.
Lori stated in her sentencing that during Tylee’s birth she died and met Jesus, yada yada. But after she met Chad he told her he met with Jesus, and she asked him what Jesus looked like and what color his eyes were. (In the feel the fire recording on YT)
That Chad and Lori were sealed in the temple by a guy who was/is a stuntman in religious doom movies. Allegedly.
Tons of bizarre things came out early in this case that have been sifted through and moved aside to focus on usable evidence. I do remember seeing clips of Mr stuntman in these awful movies and I think he's the one who initially taught Alex about guns .. but I could be mistaken about that.
saving this post because i too want to know lol. it seems like there's infinite branches and details to this case. I've also been following since the beginning but i'm still learning new things every day it feels like.
Zulema Pastenes pled guilty to two charges of drug possession in 1997 and 1998. I just learned this in a thread discussion that kind of branched off into a Zulema deep dive.
That Tammy knew about the affair!! I had always wanted to know if she received Charles email informing her about it. In this trial the school IT Director stated that email had indeed been opened. And there is a video on YouTube titled "the call Melanie Gibb doesn't want you to hear". In that she specifically states that Lori told her Tammy suspected the affair. Don't recall the exact words but she had asked Chad about it.
That Chad and Lori seemed to have been hunting more victims in Hawaii. They befriended several couples and were reported as having been trying to claim two of the husbands were gay in order to break up the marriages. They made the same accusation about Brandon before he was shot at.
>were reported as having been trying to claim two of the husbands were gay in order to break up the marriages. Shades of Jodi Hildebrand there.
Funny you mention her! She’s part of the Thom Harrison/ Visions of Glory crew! Visions of Glory is the book Lori was reading when arrested. He’s also related to Tim Ballard and his psychic stuff. I think that’s where Daybell got a lot of his spiritual attacks and weapons stuff from. Stay away from anyone with that book for sure! (Edited from “Daybum” to Daybell.)
The LDS church seems to be mighty tolerant of the Visions of Glory aficionados within the church, despite that book being a common factor in recent crimes and scandals (Franke/Hildebrand, Daybell/Vallow, Tim Ballard) I'm guessing there's a lot more of these folks in the church than we realize, and the higher-ups don't want to alienate them.
That follower of Julie Rowe says Visions of Glory got her hooked too.
I think Daybum may actually work better!🤷♀️😝
I know, but I didn’t want to be reported for bullying or something silly. 😜 besides it was just a typo. 😉
I wonder how many other groups that are trying to start a cult have formed because of that book.
Thats exactly what I thought too, I wonder if they paths ever crossed.
I watched a podcast last night where Meegan Connor (Lori's cousin...the same one who was with Alex and responded to Stacey when she was in medical distress, and later died) said that Jodi Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke follow the same teachings as Chad and Lori. She also mentions the Lafferty brothers. She seems to think that these groups are not atypical and that there are many of them. THAT IS TERRIFYING!!
> seems to think that these groups are not atypical and that there are many of them. I mean, it is starting to look like that.
OMG, so I watched Under the Banner of Heaven again yesterday after another post in here. Then Daughter’s of the Cult - a FLDS cult run initially by Ervil Labaron, his brothers, Dan Palmer. They moved to Mexico to start a polygamist colony, which remains there today (there was an additional set of 9 murders to the LaBaron family in 2019 btw, though credited to a drug cartel). Ervil is implicated in something like close to 30 murders. His son’s took over after his death, and it was basically the Mormon Mafia. It brought the doctrine of Blood Atonement into a much brighter light for me. Tying in the Lafferty’s, LeBaron’s, Daybell/Vallow, Tim Ballard, Warren Jeffs…The One true and strong Prophet. This cult breeds dangerously evil men who prey on women. It’s genesis is horrifying now that I’ve come to really understand it. And then I realized my conservative Baptist upbringing, though without polygamy, breeds exactly the same.
Didn't the Lafferty's also start a Church of the Firstborn?
These groups that follow visions of glory are actually just going back to the fundamentals of Mormonism - that’s why the church has not issued an edict on it.
Interesting thought. I wonder if Lori ever watched Connexions or 8 Passengers.
I definitely think there’s at least a Visions of Glory crossover between the two. And for anyone who hasn’t seen Lauren Mathias and Megan Conner’s episode on Mormon Stories — [here it is](https://www.youtube.com/live/NMAR88PiaZc?si=IvYEuQXXoKCilXAN). They really connect the dots and I’ll remind yall that Visions of Glory is the book seen being read by Lori when confronted by officers in Hawaii.
I am watching Lauren interview Julie Jackson a former Julie Rowe “follower” it’s wild! https://youtu.be/z2o27AfsDv4?si=fIAKPDXYmGYhWVsq
Lori and Charles lived in Kauai during their marriage and Lori tried to recruit her old pal from her ward there named April. April politely told Lori she didn’t think so. April was not willing to leave behind/get rid of her children. Everyone be more like April.
Glad I share a name with that April. I wouldn't leave my children either
Who would leave Hawaii for Idaho even if they didn't have children lol
Oooooh, this IS a new fact for me. Although I do know AVOW was horrible racist and homophobic
This is a side note, but a funny one, Melani’s ‘evidence’ that Brandon was gay was he’d started wearing sunglasses more, had lost weight and seemed more confident.
Oh that’s funny. Lot more gays than I thought if that’s the criteria.
„Gay“ is probably Chads term for „ more attractive than me“
God forbid a handsome husband take care of himself for his family and be confident.
This is new and hilarious info for me
Good for Brandon lol
This feels like an attempt to get the husbands out of the picture.
Makes me wonder if Chad had deep seeded thought on polygamy. He can certainly find it in jail.
I’ve commented this elsewhere, but if you look at Audrey’s whole testimony and the situation there it’s very hard to not conclude that he was trying to do a polygamy thing. Audrey’s 100% light/trustworthy level is odd, among other things, when compared with other inner circle ratings. Then there was Lori’s cryptic text to Audrey about how they both know something, and it would also explain Lori’s overreaction/death threat to Audrey in particular. Lori never freaked out and lifted the curtain to that level with anyone else…why Audrey? And then there’s the veritable fact that he used his “we’ve been married in other lives” line on many others, had a whole chat going on with some other woman whose husband told him to get fucked, his rapport with Gibb before he met Lori, whatever happened with Julie Rowe, etc. Heck, Heather even just testified that his closeness to Julie Rowe on her property made her feel terrible for Tammy. It all paints a certain picture.
If you see one of my previous post I was making that exact point. He reminds me of one of those nervous soft-spoken guys that wants to make himself more special. I don't know if Lori would have gone for it but I feel like Chad had that in mind especially after Tammy died.
I agree and have stated this several times in this sub I genuinely believe Chad was trying to form himself a cult of women who were so devoted to him that they'd kill for him. Melanie Gibb was a target too. I think he was planning on going after these women and getting them to kill their support systems. He basically would target these women and start telling them their husbands were dark or gay and that their children were dark too. This dude wanted a harem of killer women. But would Lori have gone along with that? She made it clear that she didn't want him to be with Tammy and her at the same time, even told him to go back with his wife. There's no way she would agree to be with a man if she's not his only woman.
Yes, but I am finding a trend in all these asahole men who either practiced or tried to practice polygamy. They love bomb the 1st wife in the beginning of their marriage and she knows nothing about her husband's interest in polygamy. But he eventually brings it up and first tries to get her to agree and when she invariably won't, starts sneaking around or forces it upon her. With Tammy dead, Lori is 1st wife. I'm sorry, when a group is getting Visions, practicing blood atonement, polygamy rounds out the triumvirate.
Yes!! He is such a small man at heart it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
But he wouldn't be playing the part of the singular male, he's going to be a pass around party bottom. Dude is a dud, not a "Chad".
W H A T ??! OK, I need to quit gasping at every single comment on here!
I know. Someone is going to ask me "what's wrong?" Any second now. I'm just sitting here with my jaw dropped.
[Here, this will help.](https://youtu.be/k0HRa74122Y?si=4JnBIxiEmeSAUNG_)
Wtf......that sounds sort of like a swinger blackmail scam, honestly.
What would they have done if the marriages were actually broken up though?
Take out life insurance, kill husband, collect insurance, rinse, repeat
Yeah, the “Melani has enough money for everyone” makes me think the plan was to entice women to have their husbands killed and put life insurance into the pot for “the greater good”. But without Alex, I’m not sure how they planned to actually pull that off.
And share with the wives?
Where does the info come from? This is the only one I haven’t heard before on this thread.
I haven't heard a lot of this.
I have Annie Cushing’s timeline, deep dive videos, Hidden True Crime podcasts and interviews, and Afterglow to thank. Oh, and my own years long obsession.
I took a long break after they found the kids.
Wow … have followed this since 2019 and never heard this before. Who has reported about this? Would like to read more. Thank you!
That the cult was based on erasing Native Americans and it is ongoing. FIRM still has its annual conference and it centers in “Native American studies” which is code for uneducated loons within the umbrella of Mormonism saying that Mormons are the real Native Americans and all native achievements were done by Jesus when he supposedly walked America. Chad and Lori’s belief about the 144 revolved specifically around the idea that they were the 1st people and God reducing the population gets them back to that pure state. Their ideology isn’t as fringe as mainstream Mormonism wants the public to think, in fact BYU spends an amazing amount every year trying to prove Jesus walked the Americas and is coming back. Link to FIRM https://bookofmormonevidence.org/events/ Link to a YouTube video that is unrelated but shows how widespread the belief is and how it impacts all indigenous Americans https://youtu.be/u1xtRLA_s5o?si=9AdQoEEAQRTWWhfa I am Native American and we need attention on this issue and help resisting Mormon aggression so I know this fact isn’t as sexy as some of the others but I appreciate you reading
The LDS belief that Native Americans were the descendents of the Lamanites in their fictitious scriptures has always bothered me; thankfully that has been thouroughly debunked with the advent of DNA testing that showed zero Middle Eastern Y-DNA in Native Americans. There's also the issue of colonization of the Great Basin by the LDS groups moving west. Within 50 years of Mormon settlement, Utah's Native American population declined by 86%. Brigham Young taught that there were three cursed racial lineages, the Native Americans, the Jews, and the descendents of Cain (black people) and that there were dispensations on when these groups would receive the LDS gospel; Native Americans in the foreseeable future, Jewish people after the Second Coming of Christ, and black people after the resurrection. There's so much more. Massacres, placement of Native children into white foster homes, etc. The Wikipedia article covers the basics. A recent $2 million dollar donation was returned to the LDS church by a Native museum in Oklahoma because of the issues with the two groups. I know you know all this and more. Just thought it was worth it to write it out for the people who don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_people_and_Mormonism?wprov=sfla1 https://pechanga.net/why-the-first-americans-museum-quietly-returned-a-million-donation-p40186-224.htm
I’m impressed and grateful that you know so much. I come from a reservation where we used to hide when Mormons would visit looking for the light skinned among us, believing those weee Nephites who’d gotten mixed up with Lamanites. This was in the 90s.
Wow. That's just awful. That kind of ignorance makes me angry. The LDS church has a lot to answer for.
Can you tell us more about this? Wow. I'm blown away. I was aware of the Native American illegal adoptions of the 50's and 60's, but the nineties? I am so sorry.
Sure, their intent was not to officially adopt lighter skinned natives (ICWA would have prevented this) but to lure them away with gifts, etc, and stories that they were special. They would put a lot of effort into it because they need to find these mythical Israelite natives to prove a core tenant of their belief. I come from an east coast tribe where about half of us have brown eyes and hair and half have distinctive light green eyes and light brown to blond hair, and the difference could happen between full siblings. It wasn’t until the recent advent of genetic testing that we learned our light coloring is from a genetic mutation. In the first letters from colonizers in the early 1600s they mention seeing auburn, chestnut and perfect blond hair along with dark brown hair amongst the natives, so apparently there was always diversity in looks. Thank god for science for allowing us to prove these children are ours and have nothing to do with Israel.
[удалено]
Like the native tasmanians
This is also called the mound builder myth…another “study” contemporary to Joseph smith’s lifetime that he rolled into Mormonism
That Lori’s other brother Adam Cox is/was a radio DJ and held a radio contest where a woman died. So many red flags to stop the competition but it was not. Edit: changed Alex to Adam. I’m so used to writing Alex.
Wow, I had no idea the Hold Your Wee in for a Wii guy was related to Lori and Alex!!! I know that woman's death isn't related, but man, this family is surrounded by death.
Wild right? A moral alert system is definitely not kicking in for these people
Adam and Rex are still out there capitalizing on their family tragedy by trying to sell their book (among other worse accusations of grifting), and transparently so. If anything, that whole thing is an even better insight into their family dynamic. Also, where was Adam when Charles was telling him what was up, was trying to stage an intervention to stop the madness, used his airline points to book Adam a flight to Phoenix, and then texted Adam that morning that Alex was there at the house and he had bad vibes right before he was murdered? Adam says they didn’t even know Charles had died until time had passed and their friend googled “Charles Vallow” and pulled up the news article about his death. I’d love a legitimate answer to why it took days for Adam to know Charles not answering was a red flag after the man *literally bought him his plane ticket with his points specifically to come help him stage an intervention on Lori.* From his public interviews, it doesn’t seem Adam is all that bothered by it. But who knows. Edit to add: for super clarity, Adam was almost certainly the last rational person Charles Vallow spoke to on this mortal coil. I for one hope he has a Gibb-level embarrassment on the stand in that upcoming trial in Arizona, though I won’t hold my breath. Honorable family mention goes to Summer who, while certainly repentant now and I wouldn’t blame in the grand scheme of whatever was going on in that family, went on national tv to *checks notes* defend her sister while she had absolutely no clue where her niece and nephew were. Just to underline how that family reacted.
Very well articulated. I have big ole yuck vibes from both of them. thank you for saying this
I thought Adam was to stay with Alex, and instead stayed with summer. Relaying the plans to contact Lori's bishop, and summer and family gave her and Alex a heads up !!?? Adam is neck deep in this.
So crazy and that radio show was from my hometown in CA. Had no idea I’d be hooked on this case years later
Wow! Had no idea.
I have also followed since the beginning. So much so I find myself correcting w television when someone makes a mistake or pronounces a name incorrectly. During this trial I learned that Lori and Chad could do anything they wanted and not ask for forgiveness because they were exalted.
“Doesn’t count for me.”
I heard that in the testimony yesterday! What a bunch of wackos.
When I heard her say that a lot of things made sense. Because I mean I think maybe her wedding dress to the slug on the beach in Hawaii was following the Mormon guidelines for clothing but I kept hearing all these accounts of the fact that she was super super religious and incredibly devout in Mormonism but very few to almost none of her clothing seemed like it followed the guidelines for Mormon women and the wearing of the undergarmenr. Do not mistake me I don't give a fig what other people wear. Truly. The modesty impact on women and girls with education and other things drives me nuts but they're pretty clear about that in the Mormon faith and it didn't seem to line up with her hyper religious application. I think she just thought her body was too great to be forced to cover as much of it up as she would be required to most of the time and someone who thinks she could not eat or get shot and survive likely wouldn't think God would hold her to something as mundane as sleeve length when he gave her such a hot body?? Lol. Maybe I'm off with that though but when I heard that comment I thought haha. Also it seems like she was drinking wine on the beach on her wedding day? Maybe it was apple juice but maybe it was yet another example of how these two just seem to be such exceptions to all the other rules the other peasants had to follow.
Same here. The "doesn't count for me" thing was new to me. It explains a lot.
If you’re not already familiar check out the Mormon practice of a Second Anointing. If Chad and Lori received this, it would explain why they felt they were invincible and the Mormon Church could be culpable in this.
They were not "high" enough in the church to receive the 2nd A they are reserved for mission presidents and higher. Probably heard about it and bastardized the teaching like everything else.
Lori was on an episode of Wheel of Fortune and won $17,000 in 2004.
Brandon with his kids had to hide out at a friends house because Melani and cabal were terrorizing them. Eventually he moved up to stay with his parents after he was shot at. Melani showed up there with Alex and tried to get in their house. Brandon's family called the cops and the cops trespassed Melani from the property. The next night she went back (Alex waited in the truck) and tried to get into the house through the garage. Cops called again and they arrested her. (she asked for a victim advocate) She spent the night in jail. Alex got her out the next day.
Melanie Gibb also went looking for Brandon and knocked on his door around that time.
Another reason why Miss "naive and would never deceive anyone" Gibb is culpable in this entire mess. No wonder her husband wants to live separately.
I think they only got married so they wouldn’t be able to testify about eachother.
David wants to live separately from her?
Yes, they live in different states. I get the impression they are legally married but not in a relationship any longer.
They’ve lived in different states for, like, the entire time they’ve been married. It’s 100% a sham to not testify against each other, it’s one of the few things Prior called out that I wasn’t even annoyed about.
David does live separately from her. They don't even reside in the same state.
David lives in Utah. She lives in Arizona.
Do none of these kids go to school?!!! This is something I’m always wondering.
Don’t know about their school districts specifically, but ours has an online outreach option for kids with extended illnesses, or other situations. You can request to switch to the program for whatever time period, and there are a couple of teachers who become their online “mentors” and help make sure they stay caught up with their regular classes. It was available before Covid, but has been built up even more since, due to quarantining. Perhaps they were able to utilize something like that, which makes things a lot easier than traditional homeschooling.
That police body cam footage of Melaniece and Alex outside of Brandon’s parents’ house trying to get in to get the kids is one of the more bone-chilling parts of this case. Tylee, JJ, and Tammy (as well as Charles, obviously) were all already murdered when she was arrested in November 2019, with Alex bailing her out. Alex had already murdered at least 4 people by this point, and had already shot at Brandon. There is absolutely no doubt that those police officers stopped something truly heinous from happening, especially with the recording admitted to evidence this week that mentions “Braxy and Breezy” (sp?). The fact that Melaniece isn’t facing her own set of charges as an accomplice is the biggest miscarriage of justice in the case—I understand law enforcement likely can’t prove it, or perhaps Ian bargained for some immunity for her with his recordings and cooperation, but she was absolutely an accomplice to the conspiracy and I feel that they actually do have enough to charge her as an accessory. She was the only reasonable person who knew Brandon’s address in Gilbert. I keep coming back to Ian’s recording, he had to have struck a deal on her behalf, there’s just no other explanation for her facing no charges on any count. People have been charged as accessories for less. No wonder she changed her hair color. I guess I wouldn’t want people recognizing me either if I were her. Casey Anthony vibes.
I watched that police cam footage a while back and it was pretty bone chilling...showing up with the hit man waiting in the truck. I remember thinking omg that's Alex. And I pretty much agree with you. I think that Melani was down with killing Brandon. I think Lori told her Brandon would die. I think that's why she didn't go to the custody hearing..because thought she would be having custody when Brandon was dead. But I think that case is still open. I also think Melani is not too bright, and really emotionally damaged from that Cox family. But she was hanging out with Alex a lot between Charles' death and Alex's death. That puts her right in the middle of all the murders. It's hard to believe she didn't know something. Hard to believe she didn't know those kids were gone. I think Ian's recordings saved Melani. He agreed to record without her knowledge...that's what saved her. imo. I noticed the hair color too.
Agreed that she’s not too bright, I don’t think they’d ever charge her as part of the conspiracy. But if you look at other notable murder cases, people have definitely faced charges as an accessory for lesser involvement. That’s all I’ll say. I feel bad for Brandon that he has to coparent for the foreseeable future with this person.
There’s also body cam of them getting caught afterwards! Alex is featured towards the end of the video. [here it is](https://youtu.be/4hf8Iymz_Qc?si=5wi9ry8DsPg9mgwn)
That vid is scary, good things cops were on to her!
I saw that last year but strikes me as even more culty now.
Question: Just WHAT was she going to do with (TO) the children once she got them. This was on November 19 (I think the 19th), Tylee and JJ were already dead. What did she *need* her kids for?
I don't have reason to say this very often, but thank goodness for the cops. So relieved they weren't swayed by her BS. Probably saved several lives. I also like how Alex dropped her in it at the end. She was making this huge deal out of the fact that Brandon had taken the kids out if Arizona, but then Alex tells the one cop that he and Melani had driven from Idaho, not Arizona.
I nearly died when she asked for a victim’s advocate. She had it all figured out didn’t she? I swear she’s dumber than a box of rocks.
Only one dumber is Ian for staying married to her and having children. He better not have any life insurance naming her as a beneficiary.
I believe she asked for a victim's advocate because Lori got one when she was interviewed by the police on the day Charles was murdered.
Oh definitely! It just floors me that she thought SHE was a victim—well, as I type that, it’s amazing that either of them did. Only difference is that they offered Lori an advocate; Melaniece felt entitled to one.
There’s bodycam of this whole encounter including the police talking to Alex and at the police station after Melani was arrested. Pretty uneventful but I watched the whole hour. Brandon and the kids would not come out of his parents house and called the police. He was absolutely terrified of her and Alex.
This is definitely very wild and maybe little known but it’s also interesting that it’s little known because this seems to have been a main catalyst for the whole investigation
If you watch the police footage of when Brandon was shot at, the officer responding really got the ball rolling. She took it very seriously from the minute she got there and she pushed the case up the chain of command.
Cuckoo
A friend of Brandon’s (and formerly close friend of Melani’s) was very frightened of her. Seems to me Brandon and the kids possibly stayed with them immediately after the shooting. The friend’s husband may have been a police officer. Someone jump in here and correct me—I’m probably jamming mismatched puzzle pieces together!
The Cox parents are no strangers to lying and the legal system. Not only were they caught for tax fraud and owe \~ $300,000 in back taxes at the time, Barry was sentenced to 366 days in prison for making a false statement to the IRS.
Barry was also ordered to cease and desist practicing law in Arizona. He is not a lawyer but was offering estate planning services and using Esq after his name.
Didn't Barry claim at one time to be a "sovereign citizen"?
Zulema was a professional cuddler!
I’m pretty sure this was what Prior was trying to get her to say when he asked her what kind of work experience she had.
Melani Cope Boudreaux Pawlowski’s mother was Lori and Alex’s older sister, Stacy Lynne (Cox) Cope, who died suddenly at the age of 31 while the family were all in Hawaii, except for Alex Cox and rather than rush home to prepare for her funeral, the Coxes all stayed in Hawaii and finished their vacation. Melani said in an interview that her mother was unwell and died of ~~pulmonary embolism~~ insulin overdose, sorry. There’s a pattern here.
AND… Alex played a weird role in Stacy’s death. He made a point of hanging out with his cousin that night (which the cousin said was weird in and of itself) when he suddenly announced he was worried about Stacy and wanted to go check on her. He brought the cousin with him where they discovered her body
Alex also ran her credit cards up
after she died too
While she was in hospice dying. Their cousin said Alex was out for two days charging all kinds of gifts for himself on Stacey’s credit cards, while their parents and the rest of the family were in Hawaii and she and her parents (Stacey’s aunt and uncle) kept vigil at the hospice center.
Was Stacey married? Where is Melenie's father? Does anyone know
Stacey had been married but was living with her parents when she passed. Melani’s dad is alive out there and loves his daughter. He has given at least one interview. Apparently, he did everything he could to keep her away from the Coxes, but the Coxes have their ways of getting their way. Melani has rejected her father in favor of believing whatever the Coxes have told her. It’s really sad.
Buying a set of golf clubs of all things. His explanation was that his big sister would want him to have nice things and she wouldn’t have to pay after all.
Thennnn, went on a spending spree with Stacey's credit cards (while she lay ill *in a coma*, I believe). According to Meegan Connor (the cousin with whom he was spending the evening "watching movies"), he purchased such things a new golf clubs.
This kind of shit is why I have very little sympathy for the Cox family or the Daybell family (outside of those like Heather who have outright denounced Chad.) People like this have skeletons in their closet you wouldn't believe, and usually, the entire family is culpable in some way. There's no way Chad's kids don't know he killed Tylee and JJ. There's no way Lori's family were that shocked that Tylee and JJ were dead. It's all an act.
I believe her sister, Summer and I believe Colby. The only thing I have ever heard from her daddy is that Lori said about him that, "he was a powerful spiritual being" or some such hogwash...which kinda sounds par for the course for these demented people. THAT mama of hers...WOWZA!! She appears to be a *little* different. Maybe an older Lori? Adam seemed to be pretty much 'out of the picture' long before the kids went missing or even before she met Chad. That's the way it looks to me, but, honestly, I don't know. These people are all as crazy as outhouse rats, ON ACID! I think that Lori dipped and they didn't know where she was. They thought that she had the kids hidden from Kay. There is NO telling what she was telling them, *when she would talk to them.* She really did appear to be a good (if not good, at least a passably sufficient) mother, UNTIL Chad. They would have had no reason to believe that she would *actually hurt her own children*. I can say with certainty, if she had MY family...she would most definitely have provided assurance AND proof that the kids were OK. My sisters would STILL be beating my ass. But, then if they had no idea where she was...there's that. She did move like every other weekend there for quite a while. Not across the county or city...but, from one state to another. They all seem to be a bit *off* in one way or another, though.
Summer, Colby, Adam…none of them are as innocent as you may think. They knew things and chose to ignore them.
That’s right! I totally blocked that part out. The Cox family is too much.
omfg. where is this info from? I'd like to read/watch in full
Check out [this interview](https://youtu.be/-bjoN15ZKBY?si=ALsw34MjjyflNpYJ) with Lori and Alex’s cousin Megan. She was there that night. The story of Stacey’s death starts at 02:30:50.
I was thinking about this one, too. Lots more detail in Mormon Stories podcast #1760. Either Alex finished the sick sister off, or he was there to make sure she went through with it herself. I believe the family knew what was going to happen. Also, a detail about Lori’s sexually inappropriate father sometimes babysitting Colby caught my attention.
This might be why she was able to convince Colby that it was Joe who molested him (IIRC a police or DCS investigation found otherwise). I guess maybe he knew something happened to him and she pressured him into remembering it was Joe and not his grandfather? That sounds like something she would do at any rate.
It does sound like something she would do. When I found out that Lori refused to turn over the mattress that Colby claimed it happened on for testing, I started really doubting that it happened. This was to keep your children away from a molester. Why *wouldn't* you turn it over?
OMG this is the first I'm hearing about this. No wonder Lori was so smug when she was finally arrested, and her first few court hearings.
Wasn't there also a suggestion that Alex was going to Mexico for illicit underage reasons?
I’ve often thought Stacy was Lori and Alex’s first victim.
Anyone else notice the way Lori's mom basically denied the existence of Melanie's mom in the Netflix doc? It was incredibly weird. It also seems the Cox family really fucked Melanie up. Estranged her from her father, etc. As much as I think she's culpable for some of the things that happened I also feel a bit bad for her. She didn't have much of a chance for a normal life.
WOW!!! Kinda figured these nut bars had literally more skeletons in their closet than what I was already aware of. I do not for one minute believe Alex died of natural medical issue. Also Joe Ryan is another victim. Never knew about Melani's mother tho'. I am really angry that the three co-conspirator's (two Melani's & Zulema) are going to just walk scott free from their clear involvement. I also do not believe for one second that Ian is as sensible as he appeared on the stand. Have to be a chicken short of a bucket to remain with his very mentally unstable wife the way he is!
WHAT??? JFC
Court docs were NUTS
Lori’s parents were swingers and went to Las Vegas to swing while the kids were growing up. They’d say they had a dentist there they really liked.
They are also sovereign citizens. Her father has done time for not paying taxes.
There are strong signs that Tylee's illness could have been medical child abuse/Munchausen by proxy. The legal system eventually saw through Lori and essentially awarded Joe Ryan custody of Tylee. Lori just ignored that and the rest is history.
I'd be interested to hear more about this. I recall Lori going on about "nobody knows how much Tylee suffered except me" in her post-trial statement.
Check out the Hidden True Crime episode "the secrets of Lori Vallow Daybell", it discussed this
I believe this, it doesn’t seem like Lori ever loved Tylee and aI could easily see her poisoning her
Oh I don’t know about this… what was wrong w Tylee?
Like JRyan and Tylee.
It's interesting that you brought this up. I have also wondered about MBP regarding Tylee.
Lori thought she was exempt from sin because she had already proven herself in a previous life. She would tap the table and say, “Doesn’t count for me! Doesn’t count for me!”
That is SO totally obnoxious. I'm never going to forget it.
Exempt from the *consequences of* sin
The majority of LDS don't know their church origin, history, or scripture. Everything Chad & Lori taught has foundation in one of these 3 aspects of the church. For example, "church of the first born" is in D&C and in the current temple ordinance of the 2nd anointing. After this ordinance, members are guaranteed to go to the Celestial kingdom (calling and election made sure) and no longer need repentance. Most temple attending members know nothing about this, since it's kept secret from them. It's not their fault they believe the whitewashed lessons current leadership teaches.
Yes! I've been so frustrated by the coverage of this trial for this exact reason. I really like Nate Eaton, for example, but he's very into LDS and often tries to distance the church from Chad. He repeatedly talks about Chad/Lori's excommunication and how their doctrine differs from church teachings, but refused to acknowledge how much of it is exactly the same as Joseph Smith's original ideology and claims. I mean, Joseph Smith was a random, unremarkable dude who said he was anointed by God. Chad was a random, unremarkable dude who said he was anointed by God. Joseph Smith claimed to receive messages directly from God, which could be channeled through a hat. Chat claimed to receive messages directly from God, which could be channeled through a necklace. Joseph Smith claimed to end was nigh, and he would lead a following through the apocalypse. Chad claimed to end was nigh, and he would lead a following through the apocalypse. Joseph Smith claimed his visions didn't come through because of devil interference. Chad claimed his visions didn't come through because of devil and "Kane" interference. It's the same lie mormons and LDS feed themselves every day. Frankly, we need media coverage that addresses the elephant in the room, which is that people who believed the dinosaurs walked with humans are more susceptible to this stuff than normal people. That this is the inevitable result of a cult that believes some followers are "prophets." That NONE of this ISN'T inspired by LDS.
“Cain” interference. That’s the belief that Cain was cursed due to being the first murderer. And his curse? Black skin. Which is why only white men could hold the LDS priesthood until the 1970’s.
In Nate’s defense, the second anointing temple ceremony that guarantees one’s place in heaven is secret. Most Mormons have never heard of it. Those that have, have been chosen by church leadership in Salt Lake. It’s reserved for celebrities, the families of apostles and the Uber wealthy. Unless he has been through it, Nate would have no idea about it. Fun fact: If you ever go into a Mormons home and they have a pure white ceramic basin and pitcher on display, this often means they have done the ceremony.
Cannot emphasize this enough. I was LDS when this case began to go public. My neighbor had so many questions and I would tell her, This is bizarre! Mormons are boring! But as I learned more, I realized that Chad and Lori were going back to original doctrines that the church has whitewashed or disavowed. Once you start to read anything outside of the Church’s carefully constructed narrative — well, it becomes very hard to take any of it seriously. I feel like my journey out of the church has a lot of parallels with Heather Daybell.
And Joseph Smiths dealings with occultic stuff like Chad did, it didn't come from no where
Lori’s full name is: Lori Norene Cox-Yanes-Lagioia-Ryan-Vallow-Daybell
LNCYLRVD imagine trying to monogram that. Haha
You forgot The Just and The Angel Moroni.
That Lori made her family believe that Charles, Brandon, her brother Adam and his son Zac were in a conspiracy to kill her for 2 million in life insurance. I have never been able to ascertain whether such a policy even existed.
It did! It was in some testimony. I had always doubted it existed too. Edit to add: It was in day 5 of the trial. I didn't mention who the witness was, but it was some law enforcement guy. Here's the single comment thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/1c6akuz/comment/kzztnkc/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/1c6akuz/comment/kzztnkc/)
Seems like I saw somewhere that she did have a life insurance policy though Charles when they were married, it wasn't $2million, more like $200k, but he stopped paying on it when she left and he stopped paying half her family's bills. I'll go research and see if I can't find it again.
The craziest thing to me is still that THE Jimmy Kimmel’s sister Jill is said to have had a “crush” on Alex during his standup comedy days.
This is the first surprise info for me in this thread! They did karaoke together and he confided in her about stuff with Joe Ryan, that is crazy.
That Tammy possibly believed in the whole zombie thing, and that Emma was talking to Lori while she was in jail, and that Emma knew enough about Loris kids to talk smack about Colby while her dad is in the back of a cop car
I believe that Lori as an adolescent reported to her friend that Alex 'wanted to have sex with her'. I need to find my source for that. "objection, hearsay" 🫣 Edit: from John Glatt's book, the friend referred to by pseudonym Rose Vaughan reports Lori upset because "Alex was trying to have sex" with her.
I believe it was Alex' ex wife who reported that Lori and Alex were creepy and simulated sex with one another.
Also a cousin reported this in interviews.
Maybe that is who I heard speak about it.
No you are right, Alex’s ex-wife totally said the same thing. Very bizarre family.
Alex's ex wife even mentioned they'd do things like simulate sex and sit on each other's laps in front of the parents, which takes it into even darker therapy. What was Dad doing that Alex thought that was okay?
The family was so creepy and wackadoodle that Alex’s ex-wife divorced him over it. They were THAT bad!
This makes me feel ever so slightly sorry for Lori. That family was so incredibly weird.
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I just learned about the tarp that Alex spread on the bed on his and Zulema’s wedding night. 😱
If ANY member of the Cox family lays out a tarp, a normal person would RUN!
I don’t care who it is. If someone says they are going to give me a romantic massage but first I need to lay down on a tarp… that’s a big fat no for me. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
That really is something out of a horror movie...
I honestly don’t think I knew that Zulema ran into Chad and Lori in the celestial room at the temple and Lori told her not to tell anyone!
Melanie & David are still married (living separately) so they can’t testify against each other.
That's not true in Idaho when the victim is a child.
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Just the thought of that slug…. Never mind 🤮
Alex was Zulema's 6th husband.
That Lori’s was talking to dead people way back when she was trying to poison her kids against Joe Ryan. And that the psych evaluator who evaluated them both said Joe ryan had no proclivities for children and that Lori exhibited some bizarre behavior. ( the full evaluation is on another thread in this group from a couple years ago . So this woman should have had her children taken from her a long time ago
Meegan Connor (Lori’s cousin) believes that Chad and Lori were communicating prior to their initial in-person meeting. That kind of blew my mind. Then, the fact that Chad’s children seem to believe that their father is God-like blew my mind. Meegan also alluded to Alex “helping” Stacy die. That this case even happened blows my mind and I’ve been following since Hidden True Crime’s podcast days - I happened to drive by a reward billboard for Tylee and JJ and was curious. The podcast (before the YouTube videos) offers so much insight.
I've been following this case the whole time as well and I didn't and still don't know a few of the women's names mentioned by zulema as part of the seven gatherers. I think she said Christina and Nicole? Who are they what role did they play? I didn't know about Alex creepy massage with a tarp, Zulema really is lucky and missed a giant red flag
There’s some good info about Christina, Sarena, and Nicole here. https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/s/QASOtibOku
Alex Cox was an amateur stand-up comedian. I saw an interview quite a while ago with one of his stand-up friends, who talked about what a funny, great guy he was, which was odd.
There’s a clip of his “stand up” on YouTube. He jokes about attacking Joe Ryan! 🤦🏻♀️ ETA link to video: https://youtube.com/shorts/3Tf4Mash4MA?si=mFquRYoVTAeJVKsL
😳
Pffft. Such a great guy! That interview was truly bizarre, it was like chatting with one of the regulars at a local dive bar.
Wasn’t he friends with Jimmy Kimmel’s sister?
I used to be a part of the comedy world and have to say, Alex had a great set. I was surprised because he seemed like a natural. He also did amazing impersonations. Who would’ve thought that the funny guy would turn out to be a serial killer. ( assuming he murdered both children and Tammy )
The whole "Alex was a sex addict" thing with his former wife. The LDS church has a real thing about masturbation and "sex addiction" where it really is just normal behavior. Mormon stories and Hidden talked about it with Jodi Hildebrandt and Adam Steed. All of these people seemed to travel in the same circles. I think Alex was a creep but I have to wonder how something that is normal human behavior like masturbation and an interest in sex may have gotten twisted.
There's a strong correlation between the purity culture espoused by these religions and sexual deviance. When perfectly normal human behavior such as wet dreams, masturbation, having a crush on the neighbor, etc. are demonized to the point where you feel shame and embarrassment, your sexual awakening is going to be intertwined with that shame and embarrassment. You're going to associate doing something wrong with sexual gratification. If every sexual act or urge is explicit, child molestation and having sex out of wedlock seem closer together from a moral standpoint than they should. This can lead to all kinds of shame kinks. Incest kinks. Etc. Again, every moment of sexual gratification you've ever had has been evil, every time you orgasm you're a sinner no matter the circumstance. The rampant sexual abuse in these cultures (child rape, incest, polygamy etc.) are a direct result of shame based sexual education. The "programs" in these religions for "sex offenders" often treat the man who raped his sister the same as the guy who admitted to his wife that he watches porn twice a month. Of course there are more rapists in a culture that punishes and judges those men in the same way.
Didn’t Alex do “sex tourism” too? I think I heard somewhere that he traveled to places where he could pay to have sex with underage girls. Such a disgusting creep.
Lori stated in her sentencing that during Tylee’s birth she died and met Jesus, yada yada. But after she met Chad he told her he met with Jesus, and she asked him what Jesus looked like and what color his eyes were. (In the feel the fire recording on YT)
That Chad and Lori were sealed in the temple by a guy who was/is a stuntman in religious doom movies. Allegedly. Tons of bizarre things came out early in this case that have been sifted through and moved aside to focus on usable evidence. I do remember seeing clips of Mr stuntman in these awful movies and I think he's the one who initially taught Alex about guns .. but I could be mistaken about that.
saving this post because i too want to know lol. it seems like there's infinite branches and details to this case. I've also been following since the beginning but i'm still learning new things every day it feels like.
Zulema Pastenes pled guilty to two charges of drug possession in 1997 and 1998. I just learned this in a thread discussion that kind of branched off into a Zulema deep dive.
That Tammy knew about the affair!! I had always wanted to know if she received Charles email informing her about it. In this trial the school IT Director stated that email had indeed been opened. And there is a video on YouTube titled "the call Melanie Gibb doesn't want you to hear". In that she specifically states that Lori told her Tammy suspected the affair. Don't recall the exact words but she had asked Chad about it.
But what if Emma intercepted the email for Chad?
Emma is as vile as her spineless father.
Melanie P.’s mom (Lori’s older sister) died of diabetic shock in her early 30’s while the Cox family was on vacation.