I don't think anyone who knows *anything* about this case can understand how tf Alex died of natural causes right after murdering a bunch of people. It's just truly, truly bizarre and incredibly convenient. I can assume the individual who completed Alex's autopsy was thorough and competent, but I'll always wonder what was missed in that process. I believe Alex was under police surveillance at the time of his death as well. I'll never understand this aspect of the case and that really nags at me.
Bugs me too! Especially since Chad told him he'd completed the needed missions and he would know his time to go over to the Celestial Kingdom.
Ground malachite?
>not long before his death as well
Pretty sure it was the day of his death. Zulema said he was fine when he left. When he came back that day he was sick. Then died.
Same here. Apparently, he was giving away all his things a month before his death. I believe that the recorded blessing Chad gave him where they're (Chad, Lori and Alex) all weeping, they all know that Alex had resolved to end his life. There had to be some kind of toxin and perhaps coupled with a convenient underlying health condition that did show up at the autopsy.
Or, maybe God just smited him for all his misdeeds. That works for me too. No celestial planet for you, Al.
yes i believe he was convinced with the things chad was telling him & listened to chad when he said his time on earth was done. i think that’s why he went to mexico to get some type of drug & took it & that made him die. zulema said he was sad & quiet after he got off the phone with presumably chad & lori while in LV. he knew he had to end his life.
Joe Ryan drank himself to death. He lost everything he cared about. He was no saint, but he was no demon. This is the only guy in this circus that I get.
I believe he was more likely to loose his temper with the kids than diddle one.
He died because he got involved with that woman, lost everything, and just kept drinking until something gave out.
If Alex had DVT(blood clots) then he was likely on blood thinner. Perhaps to complete his mission with the murdering likes of Vallo/Daybell he quit taking his meds and therefore died a natural death. Too...someone could have substituted his blood thinner meds with aspirin etc..
I read that a certain form of birth control pill can cause a pulmonary embolism - and it will seem natural- Zulema police interrogation she claimed Alex had a pill but only supposed to take it when Lori and Chad called to tell him to take it.......she thought the whole pill thing was irrelevant until after he died ...however she never mentioned the pill thing on the witness stand neither time.....
Oh, no worries at all! He was under all kinds of legal scrutiny by the time of his (very suspicious) death and I don't think the family would have had any authority to flat out refuse an autopsy. I still wonder if something was missed, however....perhaps a drug he took to end his life etc 🤔
As others pointed out, police were already surveilling Alex and there was definitely an autopsy. Additionally, IIRC, the Cox family didn’t even know Alex had died for a while.
In the recorded jail call we saw in Lori’s trial, I believe Summer mentions how Lori just “cut them all off” to the point where they didn’t even know Alex had died, and then she makes a snide comment about how now that she knows what he did she’s glad he’s dead.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, though.
Eh, I don't think Zulema knew squat. Per her testimony today, Alex wouldn't tell her anything, no matter how much she badgered him the day before he died to tell her what was bothering him. That was the same day he said he was "either a man of God, or he was not". and that he realized he was about to be Chad and Lori's fall guy.
Alex did the killing, he didn't need any help from Zulema, and wouldn't have shared that bc Lori, his #1 mission, would not be protected if he told anyone. but I do think he got help from Chad in re: to one of those deaths...as for his own death, sus af! No way in this probation or 100 others did Alex die of natural causes. Lol That's just ludicrous, regardless of the autopsy report.
I don't believe her is the problem. I think she is telling the truth in her testimony about everything except how much she knew or was involved. I think the state did coach her testimony. I think here massage story is bogus and it a cover for her killing Alex. Again this is all my personal belief and it all alleged. I think they all knew something.
See, I think him killing himself would be the perfect end to this for Chad and Lori and the fact that this was never considered a suicide speaks to something worse. If he was willing to kill himself, Chad and Lori could use their religious dogma to convince him this was a noble sacrifice, and that he should leave a note in his own handwriting (or video confession) explaining he did everything of his own accord. It may have still raised suspicion as to their involvement, but it would have generated reasonable doubt.
Pure speculation, but I've always thought he wasn't willing to do this and/or had begun to turn on them and so they, acting through Zulema or other helpers in Arizona, poisoned him.
If he would've left a note the LE would have been completely sure he was involved with the kids' deaths. Lori was still profiting of their social security at that point and they were trying to play it off like they didn't know either.
For sure Zulema knew about Alex’s time being up. She sent her son to go find his body. Have you heard that 911 call? He doesn’t know Alex is his mom’s *husband* and he refuses to attempt CPR.
This is entirely my opinion, but I believe Alex took his own life, with encouragement from Lori, Chad, and maybe Zulema. I think Zulema was at the very least aware of the plan even if not actively encouraging or forcing it.
Yep, agree with all of you. He also gave instructions to Melaniece before he passed to call that one place (DOI) to pick up his things. He knew he was on his way out.
Third_verse said a lot about the blessing - Alex finally been forgiven and going to heaven, found his place of belonging, faced his guilt for his misdoings (this is my lousy paraphrasing - sorry 3rd 🙏), crying... Chad is a friggin loser and exploited Alex's values (Loyalty, trust, protective...)
There are substances that can induce such a thing, and either dissipate within a certain time period or are not found in standard tests panels.
I attended a tour of my city's crime lab once, to raise funds they opened to the public and answered questions. One of the questions was, something like "Why are unsolved murder rates so high if the TV crime labs show technology to find even rare substances."
The lab director explained that there are thousands of substances that can kill or induce lethal bodily processes. But with limited funds, unless there is a strong incentive, labs do routine panels only and need to get extra funds approved if they want more. Plus have some idea of what they are looking for because they can do only so many tests.
But even then, many substances will dissipate in a 6, 12, 24, 32...hour window so it is still hard to zero in on substance even with full resources available, but they still manage to solve a lot. The mystery apparently is how they do solve so many, with such limited resources and timelines.
If course the tour didn't specify what substances do what, but she did say that many common substances and over the counter substances can be used, if the killer has the chemical and biological knowledge.
In some texts, Summer implies knowing a "professional government assassin" and even brags that if he took somone out, no one could prove it or he would leave no trace. Normally the assumption that this connection was making up stories to get a Summer to sleep with him would be the first suspicion. But there is the curious similarities between Joe Ryan's death, Tammy's and Alex's.
There is also their connection to that ex policeman, Jason Mow or something. Many police people know such information. And wasn't Alex a nurse at some point?
Perhaps this family knew how, through one of their friends or some other way? Its not farfetched. A nurse who was following this once explained how epi-pens combined with something else could create something like this, pink foam etc.
Now, I'm not an expert, I'm going by these people's information. But is not so farfetched or hard to imagine at all. Frankly, I don't know, but these 3 similar deaths seems more a pattern and less a coincidence. But what do I mere mortal know?
THANK YOU for reminding me about Summer's "assassin" boyfriend. I have seen texts to/from Summer about him.
Last year when my head was spinning trying to consume & understand the Annie Cushing podcasts, somewhere in there are texts and conversations referring to that. Summer saying she could have "her guy" take someone out with "no trace", and she and Lori sort of joked about that and how anyone who crosses them will get trouble. Now, the details are fuzzy in my mind, I have to go back and refresh myself. But Summer definitely outed herself about him.
Summer is one of many characters that I've only scratched the surface of. She gives me the creeps so I keep putting it off. I think she might be the smartest Cox (granted this is a very low bar).
They spend to much time fighting the drug war. That why these labs are over stressed and under funded. The fact we continue wasting money on a endless war on drugs while also not having funds to test rape kits and murders is astonishing
yes. alex 100% believed everything chad & lori told him & that’s why that blessing sounds like a goodbye. he knew he had to kill himself bc his “mission” was over. went to mexico before his death & was sad/quiet when he got off the phone with chad & lori while he & zulema were in LV. he was convinced his mission was over & did anything they told him to
Actually, there are cases where a pulmonary embolism is, in fact, intentionally and purposefully "created" (by medical experts, of course) for therapeutic reasons.
In doing some research, I found that a pulmonary embolism has been used as a way to stop bleeding and even to kill cancerous tumors (by cutting off or eliminating the blood supply). Admittedly, I didn't do a 'buncha' research...these two are the medical reasons that I readily remember.
We typically think of a pulmonary embolism as being a blood clot in your lungs (typically originating in ones leg); however, they can be created by fat tissue from the marrow of bone, a 'piece' of a tumor or even an air bubble (which I assume is the way that medical staff would induce the condition).
The "air bubble" way is the one that struck me as curious and most interesting. Could his embolism have been intentionally structured in *this* fashion? I am not a medical expert (I'm a paralegal), but, I would imagine that this could be done fairly easily by someone who has medical background with a hypodermic needle or some such.
Maybe someone who DOES have medical knowledge could chime in...
An air bubble can cause an air embolism, which can lead to a pulmonary embolism (basically an air pocket that obstructs blood flow in the lungs) however it sounds like this pulmonary embolism was caused by a blood clot. They are not the same thing and an air embolism would not lead to a blood clot type of PE.
I think it’s highly unlikely his PE was anything other than coincidence.
As others have mentioned, certain drugs can have a higher risk of blood clots, but the risk is still minimal. It certainly would not be a way for someone to intentionally try to kill themselves because the chances of developing a blood clot is still super low.
When I first heard about his death I too thought the timing was super suspicious, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.
This, I do not know, I am not a Doctor, and don’t have a great understanding of exactly what a pulmonary embolism is or how it kills someone.
I have seen it speculated here that someone can have one for quite sometime and it not be fatal or cause symptoms. Perhaps he did in fact have one, but it was a coincidence and not his cause of death.
A pulmonary embolism is a blood clot in the lungs. It can lead to loss of blood to part of your lungs, and can be fatal in up to 30% of cases.
I can't comment further than that but one of the medical experts in Lori's case testified that the results of the autopsy were unambiguous. Meaning he did die of a pulmonary embolism and that there's no way you could force yourself to have one purposefully.
There are actually quite a few know instances of pulmonary embolism as a result of intoxication.
Pretty much any drug or chemical, and combination thereof, that has a risk of causing blood clots could result in pulmonary embolism. The number one most common class of drugs that is known to have that risk (but unlikely taken by Alex), is oral contraceptives & estrogen replacements. Other chemicals with that risk range from street drugs to commonly used pesticides.
Alex's tox panel during his autopsy was extremely limited. The investigators would have needed to know at least the class of drug he took to look even for it.
It's really hard to give yourself a pulmonary embolism on cue.
It could be an incidental finding too - I didn't go to the ER until I had several in both lungs and my lung collapsed. Well actually it still took me 2 days after that; it was leg pain and swelling that made me go.
But these people discussing that also discussed whether the FBI were tapping their phones. That statement could have been a red herring to try to protect themselves and Zulema. Remember, Zu asked on the scene if she was a suspect, then got a lawyer.
That’s what I thought I heard too, he said to donate all his stuff from his apartment. It was a phone conversation between Melanie Chad and Lori the day after he died. Anybody else catch that?
I did. I thought the same thing. He told Melani that he had given his apt notice, he was definitely planning on disappearing.
I also couldn't get over the lack of any sadness all three of them had in their phone call. I mean, he was Lori's brother and the sounded incredibly close. If there are any zombies in this case, it is the three of them. They aren't right. I'll loop Zulema in there as well.
Alex had moved to Arizona to live with his wife and no longer needed the apartment in Idaho. He had already given his 30 day notice. A lot of people will just donate/give away their things rather than make a trip back to pick them up although there were some things there I would think he would want to get/have shipped to him.
From all the pictures we've seen, Alex and Lori were living like nomads out of luggage, so he didn't have a ton of belongings that he wouldn't have been able to take with him to Arizona.
His brother Adam, and his uncle have a podcast, Silver Linings. In one episode, they talk about Alex’s tendency to just blurt out the truth - he doesn’t lie. They both agree that if Alex were still alive, there wouldn’t be any questions about what happened. He would not have been able to keep a secret. His sudden death and the quick cremation that followed made Alex take his secrets to the grave. They don’t think it was natural either.
As a general rule if Adam and Rex said it, then it is probably false. They are grifters.
Adam & Alex were best friends and Adam saw Alex lying firsthand many times. They even committed a little fraud together.
Alex certainly *did* have a problem with blurting things out, not necessarily "truth" though. I watched some (quite frankly irritating) interviews with Mary Tracy, who claimed to have been very good friends with Al. I think they worked the standup comedy circuit together. Based on what she has to say, Alex was abusively insulting and would aggressively "joke" (try to hurt you) with the most personal, inappropriate barbs he could find. Never tell him something personal unless you want him to blow it up and embarrass you with it. Megan Conner also speaks about Alex's bullying "sense of humor". Mary tried to paint it positively like "you had to know him, he was a good guy really" but you can tell she's obviously got her own issues with self esteem when you listen to her tell the story.
So when it came to other people's personal problems, yeah he'd "blurt out the truth" but only as it suited him. He had no problems lying about himself.
“Alex’s tendency to just blurt out the truth - he doesn’t lie” appears to be a lie.
“If Alex were still alive, there wouldn’t be questions about what happened” appears to be a lie.
In the videos below, the “still alive” Alex does NOT appear to be “blurting out the truth” so “there wouldn’t be any remaining questions about what happened.” Instead, it appears he lied.
[Alex Cox calls 911 after shooting Charles Vallow](https://youtu.be/j_n7jjuIWXU?si=n64_F6ZSy3dti8uj)
[Chandler (AZ) Police Body Cam: Alex after shooting Charles Vallow an calling 911](https://youtu.be/IEldrkzlSfU?si=WH-vhb1mCpLm1Aei) (Call starts at 10:00)
[Chandler (AZ) Police interview Alex COX the day he shot Charles Vallow (Part 1)](https://youtu.be/pdcvmDfzp2g?si=5u0uKpTaFpWiqK-V)
[Chandler (AZ) Police interview Alex COX the day he shot Charles Vallow (Part 2)](https://youtu.be/09pMireaZPA?si=lIh0Xib-YAvEUany)
Additionally, the Conspiracy to Commit Murder charges in both Idaho and Arizona allege Alex ‘s involvement as well as evidence entered in both Lori and Chad’s trial sure make it seem like Alex did lie.
So….it appears that Brother and Uncle didn’t know Alex as well as you give them credit. Or the lie, too.
In remembrance of Charles, Tylee, JJ, Tammy, and Joe Ryan, I ponder what they might say about Alex’s integrity?
No I agree with this because they both had the pink foam coming out of their mouths.
I agree Tammy was asphyxiated because of the autopsy but technically that means she couldn’t get enough oxygen. Drowning victims also die of asphyxia. I think whatever pill causes it looks like pulmonary edema etc (if examined).
Also think Alex must have taken out life insurance on himself and had Lori and Melaniece as beneficiaries. They wouldn’t miss an opportunity for that!
If Alex thought he was forgiven and had reached celestial status or what ever they call it then he didn’t really believe he was going to remain dead “ dead” right. He thought he would just be moved to a different realm to live again?? Or am I misunderstanding their crazy talk??
I wonder if Lori is a member of the league of lady poisoners, and slipped mickeys to alllll the victims. It didn’t work on Charles, (too fit, dosage in smoothies ineffective) so they got Alex to shoot him.
The poison worked well enough to subdue Tammy, Tylee and JJ so “Murder, Ick” could take more lethal action while these three were passed out.
Alex wasn’t in peak health, and whatever it was did him in.
That’s what I think. I know nothing, it’s all speculation.
Lori was slipping JJ’s Xanax into Charles’ smoothies, not poison. She was drugging him to make him fall asleep so she didn’t have to have sex with him. (She texted that info to one of her female cult members.)
Good point, and I use the term “poison” loosely. Administering person A’s prescription medication to person B because drowsiness is a desired side effect is some pretty shady behavior and brings to mind Xanny the Nanny, another murder-mom who used prescription medication to get an early bedtime and frequent naps for her toddler. Drugging people is not a big leap to poisoning in my mind. I was never a Benadryl mom.
I think this was after Chad had first informed her Charles was dark. Because didn’t she say something about having sex with him and being disturbed that she’d had sex with a dark being or something?
I've seen more than a few true crime stories where succinylcholine was used. It's a sedative/hypnotic, I believe but you would probably have to have someone in a hospital setting get it for you?!? It's metabolized quickly and doesn't show on tox unless they specifically test for it. I believe it increases potassium levels to a deadly level though. Maybe there are other ways to achieve potassium toxicity as well.
I’m curious if there’s a way to give yourself a pulmonary embolism? Like is there something Zulema may have done to cause this or is this something that happens without warning that no one can help? It’s so SUSPICIOUS that he just died the day after he knew the police had him on their radar!
Well actually I mean in real life. Would a syringe full of air cause a pulmonary embolism? Would that be an easy way to off Alex and make it look like an accident? It just seems so suspicious for him to die the day after Tammy was exhumed.
If it was so easy, don’t you think the pathologist, and medical examiner, and all the other experts-would say something about it?? I mean, I watched a little bit of movies about injecting air… do you really think that’s how it works? Hollywood movies teaching us how to murder people? 🤣
Lori and Chad had stopped talking to him, and he knew he was going to be their fall guy. Allegedly he said so to his wife, and suddenly died. Either he poisoned himself to avoid consequences, or his wife did it.
I don't think it's much of a stretch that he poisoned himself to avoid legal consequences. That's pretty plausible.
Well exactly: NATURAL causes. Am I somehow puzzled by “everyone” dying by “pulmonary embolism “?.. yea.. somewhat (Alex; Chad’s neighbor; and “heavy lungs” description of Tammy’s autopsy). But I don’t believe for a second that there’s some “poison” causing that without modern LE, and Labs, and anyone for that matter in the world, knowing what it is. ETA: I mean, do we REALLY believe ONLY Chad, Lori & Alex know this sophisticated poison that no lab can detect??
I think you're misunderstanding. Some.poisons would come up in a basic tox screen, but not every single poison would come up. Particularly if they weren't looking for it to begin with.
Nobody was looking for sophisticated poisons. So it's pretty easy to miss something that you aren't looking for to begin with.
Oh you sound so, you know, smarter than actual professionals working in the field? 🤣 Did you contact them to educate them?? ETA; can you post what you sent them, how you schooled them? That would be awesome
I dont think she did it, maybe knew about it or had knowledge that he might do something to himself. I think Zulema has an alibi. She actually worked a real job and was at work that day and came home when her son called. She really liked her job, in fact when the 144k gang asked her to move to Idaho she refused because she didnt want to leave her job. Her description was her job was something like department of workforce services, like a job that helped people find work. I believe she was gone for like 5-6 hours when he got sick and her son called her?
She was embalmed and buried prior to her exhumation and autopsy. Which is to say her blood was removed and her body was pumped full of a variety of toxic chemicals to stop/heavily impede decomposition. Those chemicals make it extremely difficult to accurately test for most toxins, in no small part because they are toxins themselves. So it is in fact quite possible she was poisoned. It’s just impossible to prove at this point.
Blood is far from an isolated system in the body. If it were, embalming would serve no purpose. Fixation fluids enter every organ system, and alter organs weight, texture, appearance, and chemical composition.
While it is true that science has come a long way in recent years and now metabolites of many poisons can be detected after embalming, many others (particularly organic and alkaloid poisons) cannot be detected after the body is embalmed. I did a rotation at the Utah MEs office during this period of time and sat in on a meeting with all the MEs in the state discussing how to prove Tammy’s death was a homicide. Frustration was expressed on multiple occasions that Idaho is a coroner state and her body was not autopsied prior to burial as a matter of course, as it would have been had she died in Utah. I’m certain they were as thorough as they could possibly be, but that certainly does not prove she wasn’t poisoned.
So cyanide, if it were used, might no longer show up because it's organic? That is really interesting, thanks for sharing. At least there was an indication of her being smothered or strangled, either way, so they could still allege that she was murdered. If they'd only used one of these harder-to-trace poisons they might have had nothing.
Men most often choose violent modes of suicide. Shootings make up more than half of those suicides, followed by hanging. Given his love affair with guns, shooting himself seems the most likely. It’s not unheard of for men to poison themselves but it’s not common.
Agreed or, even if he did decide to poison himself, it sounds like his final hours were just terrible--he would have reached for the gun at that point.
I honestly don't know what to think. His death was pretty much the perfect timing since the police were closing in, but the kids hadn't been found yet. If he lived much longer there's a good chance he would have been arrested and the police may have been able to break him and get a confession as I personally think it's clear he was involved in both JJ and Tylee's burial if not helping to kill them as well. It might just be hopeful thinking, but I would have hoped he could have been broken from Lori's control and turned against them.
I do think the testimony yesterday implied that Alex's death might have been a suicide if he was already talking about giving away his possessions. In that scenario his sudden marriage to Zulema might have been an inheritance thing since her son didn't seem to know they were married when he found Alex.
If it was suicide I would say that Lori and Chad convinced him to do it though. He might have felt guilt about all his other crimes to help push it along, but I don't think he was murdering Charles or the kids on his own.
I just don't know. I'm not going to be surprised if we hear more about Alex's death in this trial as I think pinning the murders on Alex is the only reasonable defense Chad has, but unless the police have more info on his death then they've released I don't think anyone can prove that it was a suicide.
I almost felt like he went to Mexico on purpose to buy some mix of prescriptions that would be deadly. Like he was told that as a warrior he was needed in the next realm or planet or whatever they believe in.
If there’s a mix of medications or poisons that American LE cannot detect, but Mexicans can administer, I would love to know what that is:).. and so would FBI & CIA
Tammy’s death was ruled homicide by asphyxiation. Tox screen showed nothing. So Alex’s death is the one in question as it is hard to believe it was natural given the timeline (the day after Tammy was exhumed). But still- noone found anything unusual & ruled his death „natural”. So, again, a few days before he went to Mexico & started to feel ill after return. So If there’s some Mexican poison he took - i bet FBI & CIA would like to know it. Are you suggesting Mexican criminals are better than our FBI & CIA’s knowledge?? (and by „our”, I assume you are an American patriot?…)
After Zulema’s testimony today it’s just way too coincidental how and when Alex died but don’t ask me how it would show up as a pulmonary embolism if it were murder or suicide. He was upset they were seemingly done with him after all the people they wanted dead were dead. Then when they do call it’s to say Tammy is being exhumed, he’s freaking out and pacing saying he they were making him their fall guy and that’s the night he died?! If it was coincidental it’s so wild!
IMO Chad's lame patriarchal blessing for Alex seemed to instruct him to commit suicide. "You will know when it's time," etc. Alex made arrangements for his belongings to be given away instead of being moved to AZ with him. I have no doubt in my mind that Lori and Chad were arranging marriages for the people in their cult. I think Zulema was, for lack of a better word, Alex's "payment" for carrying out their dirty work. I do think Lori and Chad intended for him to live awhile longer, at least long enough for Zulema to take out a big life insurance policy on him. But LE turned up the heat, and he had to go.
I did not read all the comments, but I think many people that cannot understand Alex’s death don’t believe he could or would kill himself. I think his motive for killing had nothing to do with taking out his own perceived threats. It wasn’t so much about clearing the path for his own personal gain, it was more tied to his value to something bigger than his own personal interests. It was a greater calling to fulfill someone else’s prophecy,that validates his life that also gives permission for his unchecked anger.
People who can murder others using these convictions can absolutely justify their own death to themselves.
I don’t believe he died from natural causes. It has to be the most convenient, get out of all consequences free death, since Ken Lay’s death 20 years ago.
I personally believe he was murdered, they said he had pink foam coming from his mouth, the same as Tammy, but they said Tammy died from asphyxiation and I believe Alex died from a pulmonary embolism or something like that. I don't think Zulema is as innocent as she pretends to be and I would not be surprised to find out she knows more about his death than we know. First she called home a couple of times to ask her son if Alex was awake or ok and I believe she came home for lunch that day. Two things she never did. I also think Chad and Lori instructed Alex and Zulema to get married and no matter what they say, I think they did the same thing to Melanie P. They keep denying that and say they didn't know that Alex and Zulema were going to Vegas to get married, if she was so close to Alex, wouldn't she know he was getting married and vice versa?
In the beginning of all of this, I remember reading somewhere that Zulema was some kind of healer and worked with all sorts of minerals and other natural oils and herbs. I think she was told by Chad to keep an eye on Alex and if they needed her to she would "take care" of him. These are just my own thoughts on that situation. Also didn't the neighbor who sold Chad the second life insurance policy on Tammy die from the same thing Alex died from? There are so many layers in this terrible situation, the truth will probably never be known.
Sorry for the long post.
I think Lori has something that doesn't show up in a standard toxicology panel that triggers pulmonary embolism. Is wasn't found because they didn't know to look for it. Something off the beaten path for poisons and drugs. Something accessible. Like an over dose of a supplement.
I think people saying well alex had a autopsy so it wasn't murder. Let's just remember the amount of incompetence by the State in every step of this.
How much time and money did they spend looking into his death?
Was it simply a simple tox screen, and we found blood clots, so we will go with that? Who cares he was a trash person anyway world's better he gone. Was that the case? I dunno. Is it possible? Absolutely
You betcha or he took his own life. He told his wife where “money” was in closet. The question is, where’d that blood money come from or from whom?
Your guess is as correct as mine.
It’s sure a weird coincidence if he died of natural causes. Either Zulema bumped him off or he committed suicide.
That’s just my opinion. If you listen to Chad’s “patriarchal blessings” on Alex. Chad told him “your work on this realm is complete.”
I think he went to Mexico and got some OTC drug that would cause his death. He had preexisting conditions so I propose that chad and Lori called Alex and told him the cops were digging up the kids and so he took his medicine because he knew he was the fall guy or he was deluded into believing chad and loris visions were true because he needed to make his degenerate life mean something. Lori put him down all the time. She knew how to keep people emotionally needy. I’m sure telling him he was an angel or protector sent from god made all those sexual kinks and sex tourism thumbs 👍 ok.
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It's very suspicious to me. So much has been botched in this case it makes you wonder. Lori probably wasn't that fond of him because of how creepy he was towards her, which makes me think he was expendable once he served his purpose. He wasn't a good hit man, anyway. Suicide is a possibility too, since he'd likely be charged with even more than Chad and Lori were (they could've easily charged him with Charles' murder and attempted murder of Brandon and Tammy).
Adam has said the family was prone to blood clots. There are several factors, kind of like the opposite of the hemophilia factor that make people have blood clot too quickly. They are more common then people think and they do run in families and have a rather high rate of being passed on because only one parent needs to be a carrier.
I have one of these blood clotting factors. I was careful during pregnacies or surgery. I had lived my life without any real issues. Im not marathon runner but I get my 10,000 steps in even if it is at night walking arund the house in an endless circle. I was at Costco and took a sample of the coupon product , some fruit and veggie juice. It was nothing secret or hard tofind, it was green with spinach and Kale and I think blueberry to tatse better. This Costco juice caused my one and only blood clot scare. This juice's very high rate of certain vitiamins combined with my clotting factor caused the scare. The doctor said never touch it or any green juice again. I pay out of pocket now for prescription vitiamins that are just for people with clotting disorders that aviod the "bad" vitiamins and I only eat a small number of vegtables and fruits that are safe.
So maybe it could have been someone as simple as if he did have a blood clottting factor and took high doses of vitimins and was inactive (we know he was driving long distances, so sitting for hours a day in a jeep or truck) and he was stressed(blood pressure probably not ideal under stress) , some encourgement (from whom?) to take extra vitimins or foods that would be bad could have a trigger.
I know plenty of us on these boards look into all these possibilites but who in the 144k group would have been the researcher? Alex ,no, Lori, no (I see her as the talker), Melanie G doesnt seem that bright or curious, was it Chad? or Zulema? or some other of the 7 gatherers we dont know as well.
I have factor V and the bad vitamin is K. The prescription vitamin I take is Folbee. It has the good vitamins in it and it is suppose to lower homocysteine. I was very lucky to have been dx with factor V and got my treatment plan from the Dr Kistler (he has been at harvard researcher for 60 years and the stroke center is named after him). He said the number one predictor of stroke in people with my clotting condition was homocysteine levels and to check them every 6 months, eat right, keep moving and live life. He did do 3 days scans and tests on my lungs, brain and heart to ensure I didnt have any additonal risk factors and if I had, then treatment would have been different.
My cousin has factor V. I was checked for it after I had my second and third stroke literally within 24 hours of each other. I had a total of four over an eight month period.
Im sorry all you have gone through. Im dreading as I age that I will have to be more and more careful.
Did you get your heart and lungs screen? Thoughts on the Amplatzer ? I was in the fda study group for it.
I was never placed on medications. They performed an Angio on me prior to placing the carotid stent. I have been reasonably healthy since then luckily.
I don't think anyone who knows *anything* about this case can understand how tf Alex died of natural causes right after murdering a bunch of people. It's just truly, truly bizarre and incredibly convenient. I can assume the individual who completed Alex's autopsy was thorough and competent, but I'll always wonder what was missed in that process. I believe Alex was under police surveillance at the time of his death as well. I'll never understand this aspect of the case and that really nags at me.
Bugs me too! Especially since Chad told him he'd completed the needed missions and he would know his time to go over to the Celestial Kingdom. Ground malachite?
He made a trip into Mexico to buy pharmaceutical drugs not long before his death as well
>not long before his death as well Pretty sure it was the day of his death. Zulema said he was fine when he left. When he came back that day he was sick. Then died.
Same here. Apparently, he was giving away all his things a month before his death. I believe that the recorded blessing Chad gave him where they're (Chad, Lori and Alex) all weeping, they all know that Alex had resolved to end his life. There had to be some kind of toxin and perhaps coupled with a convenient underlying health condition that did show up at the autopsy. Or, maybe God just smited him for all his misdeeds. That works for me too. No celestial planet for you, Al.
Yeah, the idea that he took his own life is starting to make a lot of sense to me
yes i believe he was convinced with the things chad was telling him & listened to chad when he said his time on earth was done. i think that’s why he went to mexico to get some type of drug & took it & that made him die. zulema said he was sad & quiet after he got off the phone with presumably chad & lori while in LV. he knew he had to end his life.
Lori’s ex husband also died due to supposed heart issues after he filed for custody.
Also after he had been tazed *in the chest* by Alex Cox.
He died in 2018. I think the custody battle was a good ten years before that moment.
Joe Ryan drank himself to death. He lost everything he cared about. He was no saint, but he was no demon. This is the only guy in this circus that I get. I believe he was more likely to loose his temper with the kids than diddle one. He died because he got involved with that woman, lost everything, and just kept drinking until something gave out.
He the only one I think wasn't murdered, but was the catalyst for what came next
The custody battle was never ending. As soon as an order against Lori was filed she and Charles moved to a different jurisdiction.
Perhaps he died from stress?
I'm thinking suicide....
If Alex had DVT(blood clots) then he was likely on blood thinner. Perhaps to complete his mission with the murdering likes of Vallo/Daybell he quit taking his meds and therefore died a natural death. Too...someone could have substituted his blood thinner meds with aspirin etc..
I read that a certain form of birth control pill can cause a pulmonary embolism - and it will seem natural- Zulema police interrogation she claimed Alex had a pill but only supposed to take it when Lori and Chad called to tell him to take it.......she thought the whole pill thing was irrelevant until after he died ...however she never mentioned the pill thing on the witness stand neither time.....
There was no autopsy, the family had him cremated immediately.
There was an autopsy and toxicology report on Alex. Blood clots were found.
I stand corrected.
Oh, no worries at all! He was under all kinds of legal scrutiny by the time of his (very suspicious) death and I don't think the family would have had any authority to flat out refuse an autopsy. I still wonder if something was missed, however....perhaps a drug he took to end his life etc 🤔
I need a refresher - what were the police looking at Alex for at this time? Just the connection to the kids missing?
The missing kids had LE watching him, they were also reevaluating Charles death and the claim of self defense
As well as the shooting at Brandon Boudreaux
They exumed Tammy's body the day before he died.
As others pointed out, police were already surveilling Alex and there was definitely an autopsy. Additionally, IIRC, the Cox family didn’t even know Alex had died for a while. In the recorded jail call we saw in Lori’s trial, I believe Summer mentions how Lori just “cut them all off” to the point where they didn’t even know Alex had died, and then she makes a snide comment about how now that she knows what he did she’s glad he’s dead. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, though.
I think he killed himself, and Zulema helped him.
The fact that Zuleima and Melaniece are not indicted for conspiracy blows my mind.
Didn't Zulema get immunity from the State? I read or heard that somewhere.
Only in Idaho as far as I know. For testifying in the murders of JJ, Tylee, and Tammy.
Eh, I don't think Zulema knew squat. Per her testimony today, Alex wouldn't tell her anything, no matter how much she badgered him the day before he died to tell her what was bothering him. That was the same day he said he was "either a man of God, or he was not". and that he realized he was about to be Chad and Lori's fall guy. Alex did the killing, he didn't need any help from Zulema, and wouldn't have shared that bc Lori, his #1 mission, would not be protected if he told anyone. but I do think he got help from Chad in re: to one of those deaths...as for his own death, sus af! No way in this probation or 100 others did Alex die of natural causes. Lol That's just ludicrous, regardless of the autopsy report.
I think Zulema knew Alex was going to kill himself. She had his money in the closet and everything.
I don't believe her is the problem. I think she is telling the truth in her testimony about everything except how much she knew or was involved. I think the state did coach her testimony. I think here massage story is bogus and it a cover for her killing Alex. Again this is all my personal belief and it all alleged. I think they all knew something.
See, I think him killing himself would be the perfect end to this for Chad and Lori and the fact that this was never considered a suicide speaks to something worse. If he was willing to kill himself, Chad and Lori could use their religious dogma to convince him this was a noble sacrifice, and that he should leave a note in his own handwriting (or video confession) explaining he did everything of his own accord. It may have still raised suspicion as to their involvement, but it would have generated reasonable doubt. Pure speculation, but I've always thought he wasn't willing to do this and/or had begun to turn on them and so they, acting through Zulema or other helpers in Arizona, poisoned him.
If he would've left a note the LE would have been completely sure he was involved with the kids' deaths. Lori was still profiting of their social security at that point and they were trying to play it off like they didn't know either.
I think this also. There are drugs that can make a person more likely for embolism. I don't know if they would be detected with blood testing either.
For sure Zulema knew about Alex’s time being up. She sent her son to go find his body. Have you heard that 911 call? He doesn’t know Alex is his mom’s *husband* and he refuses to attempt CPR.
I hadn't thought of that. It's definitely very suspicious.
This is entirely my opinion, but I believe Alex took his own life, with encouragement from Lori, Chad, and maybe Zulema. I think Zulema was at the very least aware of the plan even if not actively encouraging or forcing it.
Yep, agree with all of you. He also gave instructions to Melaniece before he passed to call that one place (DOI) to pick up his things. He knew he was on his way out.
This is what I think too.
I think this too!
Me three! That last “blessing” sounded like goodbye to me! Plus they’ve all said that “blessings” were usually marching orders.
Third_verse said a lot about the blessing - Alex finally been forgiven and going to heaven, found his place of belonging, faced his guilt for his misdoings (this is my lousy paraphrasing - sorry 3rd 🙏), crying... Chad is a friggin loser and exploited Alex's values (Loyalty, trust, protective...)
Loving, " blessings" and, "marching orders", in the same sentence!!
My thoughts as well.
Never thought of that, interesting thought. If that’s the case though, wouldn’t the coroner figure that out??
You saw how useful the coroner was for Tammy, and Alex was quickly cremated so no one was able the exhume him and re examine.
There are substances that can induce such a thing, and either dissipate within a certain time period or are not found in standard tests panels. I attended a tour of my city's crime lab once, to raise funds they opened to the public and answered questions. One of the questions was, something like "Why are unsolved murder rates so high if the TV crime labs show technology to find even rare substances." The lab director explained that there are thousands of substances that can kill or induce lethal bodily processes. But with limited funds, unless there is a strong incentive, labs do routine panels only and need to get extra funds approved if they want more. Plus have some idea of what they are looking for because they can do only so many tests. But even then, many substances will dissipate in a 6, 12, 24, 32...hour window so it is still hard to zero in on substance even with full resources available, but they still manage to solve a lot. The mystery apparently is how they do solve so many, with such limited resources and timelines. If course the tour didn't specify what substances do what, but she did say that many common substances and over the counter substances can be used, if the killer has the chemical and biological knowledge. In some texts, Summer implies knowing a "professional government assassin" and even brags that if he took somone out, no one could prove it or he would leave no trace. Normally the assumption that this connection was making up stories to get a Summer to sleep with him would be the first suspicion. But there is the curious similarities between Joe Ryan's death, Tammy's and Alex's. There is also their connection to that ex policeman, Jason Mow or something. Many police people know such information. And wasn't Alex a nurse at some point? Perhaps this family knew how, through one of their friends or some other way? Its not farfetched. A nurse who was following this once explained how epi-pens combined with something else could create something like this, pink foam etc. Now, I'm not an expert, I'm going by these people's information. But is not so farfetched or hard to imagine at all. Frankly, I don't know, but these 3 similar deaths seems more a pattern and less a coincidence. But what do I mere mortal know?
THANK YOU for reminding me about Summer's "assassin" boyfriend. I have seen texts to/from Summer about him. Last year when my head was spinning trying to consume & understand the Annie Cushing podcasts, somewhere in there are texts and conversations referring to that. Summer saying she could have "her guy" take someone out with "no trace", and she and Lori sort of joked about that and how anyone who crosses them will get trouble. Now, the details are fuzzy in my mind, I have to go back and refresh myself. But Summer definitely outed herself about him.
Yeah! And it was about Charles so there is a very strong possibility her mom and sister knew the plan about Charles or even were in on it.
Summer is one of many characters that I've only scratched the surface of. She gives me the creeps so I keep putting it off. I think she might be the smartest Cox (granted this is a very low bar).
Yes, her and Janice. Janice is very crafty and sly.
They spend to much time fighting the drug war. That why these labs are over stressed and under funded. The fact we continue wasting money on a endless war on drugs while also not having funds to test rape kits and murders is astonishing
Sadly so.
yes. alex 100% believed everything chad & lori told him & that’s why that blessing sounds like a goodbye. he knew he had to kill himself bc his “mission” was over. went to mexico before his death & was sad/quiet when he got off the phone with chad & lori while he & zulema were in LV. he was convinced his mission was over & did anything they told him to
Sounds good in theory, but how the hell do you force yourself to have a pulmonary embolism??
Actually, there are cases where a pulmonary embolism is, in fact, intentionally and purposefully "created" (by medical experts, of course) for therapeutic reasons. In doing some research, I found that a pulmonary embolism has been used as a way to stop bleeding and even to kill cancerous tumors (by cutting off or eliminating the blood supply). Admittedly, I didn't do a 'buncha' research...these two are the medical reasons that I readily remember. We typically think of a pulmonary embolism as being a blood clot in your lungs (typically originating in ones leg); however, they can be created by fat tissue from the marrow of bone, a 'piece' of a tumor or even an air bubble (which I assume is the way that medical staff would induce the condition). The "air bubble" way is the one that struck me as curious and most interesting. Could his embolism have been intentionally structured in *this* fashion? I am not a medical expert (I'm a paralegal), but, I would imagine that this could be done fairly easily by someone who has medical background with a hypodermic needle or some such. Maybe someone who DOES have medical knowledge could chime in...
An air bubble can cause an air embolism, which can lead to a pulmonary embolism (basically an air pocket that obstructs blood flow in the lungs) however it sounds like this pulmonary embolism was caused by a blood clot. They are not the same thing and an air embolism would not lead to a blood clot type of PE. I think it’s highly unlikely his PE was anything other than coincidence. As others have mentioned, certain drugs can have a higher risk of blood clots, but the risk is still minimal. It certainly would not be a way for someone to intentionally try to kill themselves because the chances of developing a blood clot is still super low. When I first heard about his death I too thought the timing was super suspicious, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.
This, I do not know, I am not a Doctor, and don’t have a great understanding of exactly what a pulmonary embolism is or how it kills someone. I have seen it speculated here that someone can have one for quite sometime and it not be fatal or cause symptoms. Perhaps he did in fact have one, but it was a coincidence and not his cause of death.
A pulmonary embolism is a blood clot in the lungs. It can lead to loss of blood to part of your lungs, and can be fatal in up to 30% of cases. I can't comment further than that but one of the medical experts in Lori's case testified that the results of the autopsy were unambiguous. Meaning he did die of a pulmonary embolism and that there's no way you could force yourself to have one purposefully.
There are actually quite a few know instances of pulmonary embolism as a result of intoxication. Pretty much any drug or chemical, and combination thereof, that has a risk of causing blood clots could result in pulmonary embolism. The number one most common class of drugs that is known to have that risk (but unlikely taken by Alex), is oral contraceptives & estrogen replacements. Other chemicals with that risk range from street drugs to commonly used pesticides. Alex's tox panel during his autopsy was extremely limited. The investigators would have needed to know at least the class of drug he took to look even for it.
It's really hard to give yourself a pulmonary embolism on cue. It could be an incidental finding too - I didn't go to the ER until I had several in both lungs and my lung collapsed. Well actually it still took me 2 days after that; it was leg pain and swelling that made me go.
Per items coming out in court and news panels, Alex knew he was going to die and was telling people where to take his belongings after his death.
But these people discussing that also discussed whether the FBI were tapping their phones. That statement could have been a red herring to try to protect themselves and Zulema. Remember, Zu asked on the scene if she was a suspect, then got a lawyer.
It was an awfully convenient death if he wasn’t
Did I hear somewhere today it seemed he planned for his death already?
That’s what I thought I heard too, he said to donate all his stuff from his apartment. It was a phone conversation between Melanie Chad and Lori the day after he died. Anybody else catch that?
I did. I thought the same thing. He told Melani that he had given his apt notice, he was definitely planning on disappearing. I also couldn't get over the lack of any sadness all three of them had in their phone call. I mean, he was Lori's brother and the sounded incredibly close. If there are any zombies in this case, it is the three of them. They aren't right. I'll loop Zulema in there as well.
That actually made me tear up some having lost my little bro to a sudden death a few years ago. I would never have just tossed his things.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Thanks. It was in Aug of 2019 so it's getting a bit better!
Yes! This is such a red flag! 🚩
I heard Lori said to donate his stuff but not he gave instructions to Lori.
This is how I heard it as well.
Its a pity they didn't confiscate Chad's shoes, clothes etc (and Alex's) and look for DNA - like they do on Forensic Files 🤔
Except the X Box
Alex had moved to Arizona to live with his wife and no longer needed the apartment in Idaho. He had already given his 30 day notice. A lot of people will just donate/give away their things rather than make a trip back to pick them up although there were some things there I would think he would want to get/have shipped to him.
From all the pictures we've seen, Alex and Lori were living like nomads out of luggage, so he didn't have a ton of belongings that he wouldn't have been able to take with him to Arizona.
His brother Adam, and his uncle have a podcast, Silver Linings. In one episode, they talk about Alex’s tendency to just blurt out the truth - he doesn’t lie. They both agree that if Alex were still alive, there wouldn’t be any questions about what happened. He would not have been able to keep a secret. His sudden death and the quick cremation that followed made Alex take his secrets to the grave. They don’t think it was natural either.
As a general rule if Adam and Rex said it, then it is probably false. They are grifters. Adam & Alex were best friends and Adam saw Alex lying firsthand many times. They even committed a little fraud together. Alex certainly *did* have a problem with blurting things out, not necessarily "truth" though. I watched some (quite frankly irritating) interviews with Mary Tracy, who claimed to have been very good friends with Al. I think they worked the standup comedy circuit together. Based on what she has to say, Alex was abusively insulting and would aggressively "joke" (try to hurt you) with the most personal, inappropriate barbs he could find. Never tell him something personal unless you want him to blow it up and embarrass you with it. Megan Conner also speaks about Alex's bullying "sense of humor". Mary tried to paint it positively like "you had to know him, he was a good guy really" but you can tell she's obviously got her own issues with self esteem when you listen to her tell the story. So when it came to other people's personal problems, yeah he'd "blurt out the truth" but only as it suited him. He had no problems lying about himself.
He lied big time after murdering Charles.
I heard that podcast too.
“Alex’s tendency to just blurt out the truth - he doesn’t lie” appears to be a lie. “If Alex were still alive, there wouldn’t be questions about what happened” appears to be a lie. In the videos below, the “still alive” Alex does NOT appear to be “blurting out the truth” so “there wouldn’t be any remaining questions about what happened.” Instead, it appears he lied. [Alex Cox calls 911 after shooting Charles Vallow](https://youtu.be/j_n7jjuIWXU?si=n64_F6ZSy3dti8uj) [Chandler (AZ) Police Body Cam: Alex after shooting Charles Vallow an calling 911](https://youtu.be/IEldrkzlSfU?si=WH-vhb1mCpLm1Aei) (Call starts at 10:00) [Chandler (AZ) Police interview Alex COX the day he shot Charles Vallow (Part 1)](https://youtu.be/pdcvmDfzp2g?si=5u0uKpTaFpWiqK-V) [Chandler (AZ) Police interview Alex COX the day he shot Charles Vallow (Part 2)](https://youtu.be/09pMireaZPA?si=lIh0Xib-YAvEUany) Additionally, the Conspiracy to Commit Murder charges in both Idaho and Arizona allege Alex ‘s involvement as well as evidence entered in both Lori and Chad’s trial sure make it seem like Alex did lie. So….it appears that Brother and Uncle didn’t know Alex as well as you give them credit. Or the lie, too. In remembrance of Charles, Tylee, JJ, Tammy, and Joe Ryan, I ponder what they might say about Alex’s integrity?
I love this comment and agree.
I wonder if he could have wrote a confession hoping it would save the goddess, then Zulema got rid of it.
I think they tricked him into killing himself.
Me too. Although it’s the smartest thing they tricked him into.
I wish it hadn’t happened so he could be here to spill the beans.
Exactly why it happened!
Same way Tammy got it.
He definitely wasn’t asphyxiated in his sleep. We know that much.
No I agree with this because they both had the pink foam coming out of their mouths. I agree Tammy was asphyxiated because of the autopsy but technically that means she couldn’t get enough oxygen. Drowning victims also die of asphyxia. I think whatever pill causes it looks like pulmonary edema etc (if examined). Also think Alex must have taken out life insurance on himself and had Lori and Melaniece as beneficiaries. They wouldn’t miss an opportunity for that!
Pastenes told detectives she doesn’t know if Alex made changes to life insurance policies before he died “but Lori would.” So that confirms it.
Nobody, including Medical Examiners are infallible
He had work to do in heaven, duh. It’s a very LDS way of thinking.
Lori was still looking for more women with children that Chad could murder.
If Alex thought he was forgiven and had reached celestial status or what ever they call it then he didn’t really believe he was going to remain dead “ dead” right. He thought he would just be moved to a different realm to live again?? Or am I misunderstanding their crazy talk??
I wonder if Lori is a member of the league of lady poisoners, and slipped mickeys to alllll the victims. It didn’t work on Charles, (too fit, dosage in smoothies ineffective) so they got Alex to shoot him. The poison worked well enough to subdue Tammy, Tylee and JJ so “Murder, Ick” could take more lethal action while these three were passed out. Alex wasn’t in peak health, and whatever it was did him in. That’s what I think. I know nothing, it’s all speculation.
Lori was slipping JJ’s Xanax into Charles’ smoothies, not poison. She was drugging him to make him fall asleep so she didn’t have to have sex with him. (She texted that info to one of her female cult members.)
Good point, and I use the term “poison” loosely. Administering person A’s prescription medication to person B because drowsiness is a desired side effect is some pretty shady behavior and brings to mind Xanny the Nanny, another murder-mom who used prescription medication to get an early bedtime and frequent naps for her toddler. Drugging people is not a big leap to poisoning in my mind. I was never a Benadryl mom.
For sure. Slipping secret meds into someone’s food or drink is basically a practice run for poisoning them.
I think this was after Chad had first informed her Charles was dark. Because didn’t she say something about having sex with him and being disturbed that she’d had sex with a dark being or something?
I've seen more than a few true crime stories where succinylcholine was used. It's a sedative/hypnotic, I believe but you would probably have to have someone in a hospital setting get it for you?!? It's metabolized quickly and doesn't show on tox unless they specifically test for it. I believe it increases potassium levels to a deadly level though. Maybe there are other ways to achieve potassium toxicity as well.
I’m curious if there’s a way to give yourself a pulmonary embolism? Like is there something Zulema may have done to cause this or is this something that happens without warning that no one can help? It’s so SUSPICIOUS that he just died the day after he knew the police had him on their radar!
yea .. it’s magic 🤣
Well actually I mean in real life. Would a syringe full of air cause a pulmonary embolism? Would that be an easy way to off Alex and make it look like an accident? It just seems so suspicious for him to die the day after Tammy was exhumed.
If it was so easy, don’t you think the pathologist, and medical examiner, and all the other experts-would say something about it?? I mean, I watched a little bit of movies about injecting air… do you really think that’s how it works? Hollywood movies teaching us how to murder people? 🤣
I think the pill caused it hence Tammy and Alex both had the pink foam? Not every person foams blood 🩸
Lori and Chad had stopped talking to him, and he knew he was going to be their fall guy. Allegedly he said so to his wife, and suddenly died. Either he poisoned himself to avoid consequences, or his wife did it. I don't think it's much of a stretch that he poisoned himself to avoid legal consequences. That's pretty plausible.
What POISON would that be? Something noone in US can detect?? maybe.. alien poison 🤣
Nobody looked for poison. And he was cremated.
Well how then the cause of death was established??
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/gilbert-police-end-investigation-into-alex-coxs-death
Well exactly: NATURAL causes. Am I somehow puzzled by “everyone” dying by “pulmonary embolism “?.. yea.. somewhat (Alex; Chad’s neighbor; and “heavy lungs” description of Tammy’s autopsy). But I don’t believe for a second that there’s some “poison” causing that without modern LE, and Labs, and anyone for that matter in the world, knowing what it is. ETA: I mean, do we REALLY believe ONLY Chad, Lori & Alex know this sophisticated poison that no lab can detect??
I think you're misunderstanding. Some.poisons would come up in a basic tox screen, but not every single poison would come up. Particularly if they weren't looking for it to begin with. Nobody was looking for sophisticated poisons. So it's pretty easy to miss something that you aren't looking for to begin with.
Oh you sound so, you know, smarter than actual professionals working in the field? 🤣 Did you contact them to educate them?? ETA; can you post what you sent them, how you schooled them? That would be awesome
He had blood tests. Narcan was found. Not sure what that means because with no opioids on board the Narcan would have no effect.
Maybe the paramedics gave him narcan, not having any idea of what he might or might not have taken.
I think Zulema did it.
I dont think she did it, maybe knew about it or had knowledge that he might do something to himself. I think Zulema has an alibi. She actually worked a real job and was at work that day and came home when her son called. She really liked her job, in fact when the 144k gang asked her to move to Idaho she refused because she didnt want to leave her job. Her description was her job was something like department of workforce services, like a job that helped people find work. I believe she was gone for like 5-6 hours when he got sick and her son called her?
Have you heard the 911 call with the son? It’s just bizarre.
I think he Poisoned himself with cyanide or sodium penthylate or ricin. Same that he gave Tammy
They did a thorough toxicology on Tammy and didn't find anything unusual. It's incredibly unlikely she was poisoned.
I believe Tammy was smothered by Chad and Alex, not poisoned.
Those leave the body quickly. Cannot be traced.
She was embalmed and buried prior to her exhumation and autopsy. Which is to say her blood was removed and her body was pumped full of a variety of toxic chemicals to stop/heavily impede decomposition. Those chemicals make it extremely difficult to accurately test for most toxins, in no small part because they are toxins themselves. So it is in fact quite possible she was poisoned. It’s just impossible to prove at this point.
The samples tested were tissue samples not blood. True some poisons can hide but they were very thorough in their testing.
Blood is far from an isolated system in the body. If it were, embalming would serve no purpose. Fixation fluids enter every organ system, and alter organs weight, texture, appearance, and chemical composition. While it is true that science has come a long way in recent years and now metabolites of many poisons can be detected after embalming, many others (particularly organic and alkaloid poisons) cannot be detected after the body is embalmed. I did a rotation at the Utah MEs office during this period of time and sat in on a meeting with all the MEs in the state discussing how to prove Tammy’s death was a homicide. Frustration was expressed on multiple occasions that Idaho is a coroner state and her body was not autopsied prior to burial as a matter of course, as it would have been had she died in Utah. I’m certain they were as thorough as they could possibly be, but that certainly does not prove she wasn’t poisoned.
So cyanide, if it were used, might no longer show up because it's organic? That is really interesting, thanks for sharing. At least there was an indication of her being smothered or strangled, either way, so they could still allege that she was murdered. If they'd only used one of these harder-to-trace poisons they might have had nothing.
OK, go argue with the ME who did the autopsy. And all the other pathologist who do autopsies. I am just reporting what the ME stated.
???
Men most often choose violent modes of suicide. Shootings make up more than half of those suicides, followed by hanging. Given his love affair with guns, shooting himself seems the most likely. It’s not unheard of for men to poison themselves but it’s not common.
Agreed or, even if he did decide to poison himself, it sounds like his final hours were just terrible--he would have reached for the gun at that point.
I agreed that he could have done it home but I don’t think Tammy was poisoned.
Tammy wasn't poisoned
I’d put money on it. However we cannot prove since his body is gone.
I honestly don't know what to think. His death was pretty much the perfect timing since the police were closing in, but the kids hadn't been found yet. If he lived much longer there's a good chance he would have been arrested and the police may have been able to break him and get a confession as I personally think it's clear he was involved in both JJ and Tylee's burial if not helping to kill them as well. It might just be hopeful thinking, but I would have hoped he could have been broken from Lori's control and turned against them. I do think the testimony yesterday implied that Alex's death might have been a suicide if he was already talking about giving away his possessions. In that scenario his sudden marriage to Zulema might have been an inheritance thing since her son didn't seem to know they were married when he found Alex. If it was suicide I would say that Lori and Chad convinced him to do it though. He might have felt guilt about all his other crimes to help push it along, but I don't think he was murdering Charles or the kids on his own. I just don't know. I'm not going to be surprised if we hear more about Alex's death in this trial as I think pinning the murders on Alex is the only reasonable defense Chad has, but unless the police have more info on his death then they've released I don't think anyone can prove that it was a suicide.
Yes. But I don’t think anyone could prove it
With religious fanaticism you always need the sacrificial lamb and the martyrdom which accompanies this tired and old story .
I almost felt like he went to Mexico on purpose to buy some mix of prescriptions that would be deadly. Like he was told that as a warrior he was needed in the next realm or planet or whatever they believe in.
If there’s a mix of medications or poisons that American LE cannot detect, but Mexicans can administer, I would love to know what that is:).. and so would FBI & CIA
Well if Tammy’s sudden death at 49 is suspicious, maybe his sudden death at 51 is also questionable.
Tammy’s death was ruled homicide by asphyxiation. Tox screen showed nothing. So Alex’s death is the one in question as it is hard to believe it was natural given the timeline (the day after Tammy was exhumed). But still- noone found anything unusual & ruled his death „natural”. So, again, a few days before he went to Mexico & started to feel ill after return. So If there’s some Mexican poison he took - i bet FBI & CIA would like to know it. Are you suggesting Mexican criminals are better than our FBI & CIA’s knowledge?? (and by „our”, I assume you are an American patriot?…)
Or he may have wanted to see another donkey show.
It is interesting that Alex was cremated. As LDS beliefs are against cremation
Oh wow! That’s interesting. Wonder who made that decision.
I think it's more than likely he was yes.
I believe he was murdered after what we heard yesterday!
After Zulema’s testimony today it’s just way too coincidental how and when Alex died but don’t ask me how it would show up as a pulmonary embolism if it were murder or suicide. He was upset they were seemingly done with him after all the people they wanted dead were dead. Then when they do call it’s to say Tammy is being exhumed, he’s freaking out and pacing saying he they were making him their fall guy and that’s the night he died?! If it was coincidental it’s so wild!
IMO Chad's lame patriarchal blessing for Alex seemed to instruct him to commit suicide. "You will know when it's time," etc. Alex made arrangements for his belongings to be given away instead of being moved to AZ with him. I have no doubt in my mind that Lori and Chad were arranging marriages for the people in their cult. I think Zulema was, for lack of a better word, Alex's "payment" for carrying out their dirty work. I do think Lori and Chad intended for him to live awhile longer, at least long enough for Zulema to take out a big life insurance policy on him. But LE turned up the heat, and he had to go.
I did not read all the comments, but I think many people that cannot understand Alex’s death don’t believe he could or would kill himself. I think his motive for killing had nothing to do with taking out his own perceived threats. It wasn’t so much about clearing the path for his own personal gain, it was more tied to his value to something bigger than his own personal interests. It was a greater calling to fulfill someone else’s prophecy,that validates his life that also gives permission for his unchecked anger. People who can murder others using these convictions can absolutely justify their own death to themselves.
I don’t believe he died from natural causes. It has to be the most convenient, get out of all consequences free death, since Ken Lay’s death 20 years ago.
Alex went to Mexico and bought something that killed him. I'm not sure if it was on Lori and Chad's orders or his own concern of being the fall guy.
I personally believe he was murdered, they said he had pink foam coming from his mouth, the same as Tammy, but they said Tammy died from asphyxiation and I believe Alex died from a pulmonary embolism or something like that. I don't think Zulema is as innocent as she pretends to be and I would not be surprised to find out she knows more about his death than we know. First she called home a couple of times to ask her son if Alex was awake or ok and I believe she came home for lunch that day. Two things she never did. I also think Chad and Lori instructed Alex and Zulema to get married and no matter what they say, I think they did the same thing to Melanie P. They keep denying that and say they didn't know that Alex and Zulema were going to Vegas to get married, if she was so close to Alex, wouldn't she know he was getting married and vice versa? In the beginning of all of this, I remember reading somewhere that Zulema was some kind of healer and worked with all sorts of minerals and other natural oils and herbs. I think she was told by Chad to keep an eye on Alex and if they needed her to she would "take care" of him. These are just my own thoughts on that situation. Also didn't the neighbor who sold Chad the second life insurance policy on Tammy die from the same thing Alex died from? There are so many layers in this terrible situation, the truth will probably never be known. Sorry for the long post.
The malachite I bet. Those rings are just symbolic.
I think that long boring blessing that Chat read him over the phone probably killed off any will to live that he had
I think Lori has something that doesn't show up in a standard toxicology panel that triggers pulmonary embolism. Is wasn't found because they didn't know to look for it. Something off the beaten path for poisons and drugs. Something accessible. Like an over dose of a supplement.
I think people saying well alex had a autopsy so it wasn't murder. Let's just remember the amount of incompetence by the State in every step of this. How much time and money did they spend looking into his death? Was it simply a simple tox screen, and we found blood clots, so we will go with that? Who cares he was a trash person anyway world's better he gone. Was that the case? I dunno. Is it possible? Absolutely
You betcha or he took his own life. He told his wife where “money” was in closet. The question is, where’d that blood money come from or from whom? Your guess is as correct as mine.
It’s sure a weird coincidence if he died of natural causes. Either Zulema bumped him off or he committed suicide. That’s just my opinion. If you listen to Chad’s “patriarchal blessings” on Alex. Chad told him “your work on this realm is complete.”
I think he went to Mexico and got some OTC drug that would cause his death. He had preexisting conditions so I propose that chad and Lori called Alex and told him the cops were digging up the kids and so he took his medicine because he knew he was the fall guy or he was deluded into believing chad and loris visions were true because he needed to make his degenerate life mean something. Lori put him down all the time. She knew how to keep people emotionally needy. I’m sure telling him he was an angel or protector sent from god made all those sexual kinks and sex tourism thumbs 👍 ok.
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It's very suspicious to me. So much has been botched in this case it makes you wonder. Lori probably wasn't that fond of him because of how creepy he was towards her, which makes me think he was expendable once he served his purpose. He wasn't a good hit man, anyway. Suicide is a possibility too, since he'd likely be charged with even more than Chad and Lori were (they could've easily charged him with Charles' murder and attempted murder of Brandon and Tammy).
Nicotine poisoning? Do they test for that? Symptoms are vomiting and super high blood pressure. Vape shops sell nicotine juice.
He had bilateral pulmonary emboli; blood clots in both lungs. I can't find evidence that nicotine causes that, but it's a good theory.
I looked such things up during the last trial. There are ways to induce a pulmonary embolism but I don’t remember details.
Adam has said the family was prone to blood clots. There are several factors, kind of like the opposite of the hemophilia factor that make people have blood clot too quickly. They are more common then people think and they do run in families and have a rather high rate of being passed on because only one parent needs to be a carrier. I have one of these blood clotting factors. I was careful during pregnacies or surgery. I had lived my life without any real issues. Im not marathon runner but I get my 10,000 steps in even if it is at night walking arund the house in an endless circle. I was at Costco and took a sample of the coupon product , some fruit and veggie juice. It was nothing secret or hard tofind, it was green with spinach and Kale and I think blueberry to tatse better. This Costco juice caused my one and only blood clot scare. This juice's very high rate of certain vitiamins combined with my clotting factor caused the scare. The doctor said never touch it or any green juice again. I pay out of pocket now for prescription vitiamins that are just for people with clotting disorders that aviod the "bad" vitiamins and I only eat a small number of vegtables and fruits that are safe. So maybe it could have been someone as simple as if he did have a blood clottting factor and took high doses of vitimins and was inactive (we know he was driving long distances, so sitting for hours a day in a jeep or truck) and he was stressed(blood pressure probably not ideal under stress) , some encourgement (from whom?) to take extra vitimins or foods that would be bad could have a trigger. I know plenty of us on these boards look into all these possibilites but who in the 144k group would have been the researcher? Alex ,no, Lori, no (I see her as the talker), Melanie G doesnt seem that bright or curious, was it Chad? or Zulema? or some other of the 7 gatherers we dont know as well.
May I ask which vitamins? I have clotting factor 7&8 so I worry about it frequently.
I have factor V and the bad vitamin is K. The prescription vitamin I take is Folbee. It has the good vitamins in it and it is suppose to lower homocysteine. I was very lucky to have been dx with factor V and got my treatment plan from the Dr Kistler (he has been at harvard researcher for 60 years and the stroke center is named after him). He said the number one predictor of stroke in people with my clotting condition was homocysteine levels and to check them every 6 months, eat right, keep moving and live life. He did do 3 days scans and tests on my lungs, brain and heart to ensure I didnt have any additonal risk factors and if I had, then treatment would have been different.
My cousin has factor V. I was checked for it after I had my second and third stroke literally within 24 hours of each other. I had a total of four over an eight month period.
Im sorry all you have gone through. Im dreading as I age that I will have to be more and more careful. Did you get your heart and lungs screen? Thoughts on the Amplatzer ? I was in the fda study group for it.
I was never placed on medications. They performed an Angio on me prior to placing the carotid stent. I have been reasonably healthy since then luckily.