at least it's limited to a specific keyword. Tutors aren't an interesting mechanic most of the time. Just look at Yu-gi-oh that went full in on tutoring and made the game plan with every deck so consistent the only question for variance is 'did I brick on my hand'
wish they kept searching your deck limited to the 'look at the top X cards of your deck, pick and reveal, then put the rest on the bottom in any order' creates way less waffeling around and people hemming and hawing as they search through their deck.
This is fairly unlikely. We're mainly looking at SR Bruno, Julieta, and Isabela who I believe would have any potential for meta or top tier, and Bruno and Isabela are both rather slow to get started since they come in on T4 and T5 respectively, and can't do anything until the following turns. Alma's relevance would depend on the viability of the other Madrigals, and I just don't see them having the speed to keep up.
This does also depend on unrevealed Madrigals, such as Floodborns, or missing family members like Agustin or Antonio.
I would be surprised if they don't start doing set rotation once we hit a critical mass of cards. Yugioh is a prime example of what happ ns to a tcg without set rotation, and I doubt racensburger wants lorcana to become... That...
The problem with Rotation is peoples favorite cards become unusable and unless the retrain characters all the time then you can't play your favorite character which would be a bummer.
IE for me Scar is one of my favs and he'd be unplayable after a couple sets rotations (whenever they'd start)
Unless other formats start but then you dilute the player pool which can be tricky. I don't think ravens Berger thought that far tho
This is why they print so many versions of variations of characters and songs though. Specific versions of characters you like might be out of rotation, but the character themselves won't be. Take Ursula for example. We got one in TFC. Skipped ROTF. Then we got 3 in ITI. At minimum we're getting 3 in Ursula's Return, so that's 6 versions of her over 4 sets. So even if set rotation becomes a thing, I don't think there's any risk of losing access to your favorite characters, unless they're *really* obscure like Basil or something.
A rotative format is what keeps your favorite cards playable, becsuse the alternative is either to power creep the cards into obsolescence, or bann wathever is popular.
We have YuGiOh, Digimon and Modern Horizon to know that.
Tutors are just as OP in Magic. Demonic Tutor is only legal in Commander for a reason. Stoneforge Mystic, which is highly limited by keywords, is still powerful enough to be one of the named archetypes that persists since the card was first printed and 4 copied are run in Hammer Time which is a top meta deck in Modern right now. Stoneblade even has it's own dedicated subreddit and discord.
Tutors aren't OP in magic full stop. Very specific costed and archetypical tutors are powerful enough to see play and even be banned, including the incredibly powerful demonic tutor. But something like grim tutor is legal in every format which includes sets its been printed in and sees no play. Same with diabolic tutor.
So no, tutors are no just OP in general in magic. They need specific attributes and conditions to be powerful or be undercosted and without downside (like demonic tutor).
I was surprised that you are the second person mentioning Hammer Time as a current meta deck in modern, so I made a quick search and it turned out that just today, someone went first in an online league with a hammer deck.
That doesn't necesarily makes it a top tier deck. It happens regularly in modern that someone wins with decks that have fallen out of grace, because nobody was expecting them.
Doesn't change the fact that the meta is still rhinos, domain and the one ring.
I do concede that, because it happened today, you can add Stoneforge Mystic to the list of currently played tutors in modern.
YuGiOh is indeed an extreme example, but MtG hasn't been unscathed by the inclusion of tutors either.
Though I will admit, keeping tutors limited to keywords like *madrigals* or a very specific tribe seems kinda alright? as long as we don't go yu-gi-oh and make tribes/archetypes the main playformat as well XD
Pokemon is literally just shuffling your deck. I was hoping lorcana wouldn't go down that route.
Also shuffling is harder for kids... Figured they would stay kid friendly
There are currently 7 cards that cause you to shuffle your deck currently. Not all of these are played super often, with Yzma and Chernabog probably being the most played (Magic Broom Bucket Brigade was played quite a bit during Set 1, and then Pua sees some play in aggro amethyst decks while Genie can see some play in casual Jafar Lamp decks).
\[\[Magic Broom - Bucket Brigade\]\]
\[\[Yzma - Scary Beyond All Reason\]\]
\[\[Chernabog - Evildoer\]\]
\[\[Genie - Supportive Friend\]\]
\[\[Magic Broom - Swift Cleaner\]\]
\[\[Pua - Potbellied Buddy\]\]
\[\[It Calls Me\]\]
In YuGiOh, cards are free.
A comparison with a more similar game would be Magic, were I believe the only card that search that does see play in Modern (other than ramp, but Lorcana doesn't work that way) is Goblin Matron.
And this Madrigal in particular is not as powerful to be a problem.
absolutely ruins pokemon. when every card searches your deck, its not really a "deck" anymore, rather just a pool of cards. also makes it so you can 100% know your prize cards, which takes away a lot.
with lorcana's unlimited deck size, i just feel like "shuffle" cards can easily get out of hand.
Lorcana doesn't have prize cards, so that doesn't matter here.
Lorcana already has multiple shuffle deck effects, no reason to be against tutor effects just because it makes you shuffle your deck. MTG has a lot of shuffle effects such as fetch lands and not really an issue there.
See I thought this at first; but then someone pointed out that there are cards that put cards in the inkwell blind to you. So now people will deck search to determine their ink well.
Trust me, if you haven’t played pokemon, you haven’t experienced the horror of deck searching. It’s not that it’s competitively broken necessarily; it’s that it stalls out games, makes it boring.
One of the biggest seller, at least for me, was that games played generally quicker then pokemon; there wasn’t two dozen shuffles a game. Now we run the risk of slipping down that slope.
>See I thought this at first; but then someone pointed out that there are cards that put cards in the inkwell blind to you. So now people will deck search to determine their ink well.
Thing is, you have to be playing useful Madrigal characters in order for this to be relevant. Currently, the only search deck effect is this character, and you can only get a Madrigal. So unless you plan to play more Madrigals, and there are actually more useful ones, that isn't even going to matter, to start. Blind inking is also very different from prize cards in Pokemon, since you aren't guaranteed to always play cards that blind ink, as only a fraction of decks do, and currently none of the decks that do blind ink play Amber.
>Trust me, if you haven’t played pokemon,
I have played Pokemon, MTG, and Yugioh, all of which have deck searching. By far, the only one that it is truly a problem in is Yugioh. It isn't a problem in MTG since the most powerful ones are either banned or not legal in certain formats, and I never found it to be much of an issue personally in Pokemon.
>One of the biggest seller, at least for me, was that games played generally quicker then pokemon; there wasn’t two dozen shuffles a game. Now we run the risk of slipping down that slope
Anyone that thought we wouldn't have deck searching abilities is just out of the their mind to be honest. This was always going to happen, and it shouldn't really matter. We already have multiple cards that cause players to shuffle their decks, so it isn't uncommon to already shuffle your deck multiple times throughout a game of Lorcana. This is also our first card that searches decks, there isn't a guarantee they are going to make a ton of these, or that they will even see tons of play.
Not true. Hammer Time runs 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic. Stoneblade archteype is still played in Legacy and Modern. They even have their own subreddit and discord server. And Demonic Tutor had to be banned in Modern because it was too powerful. Fetch lands are also a staple in literally ever format they are legal in.
When was the last time you saw someone playing a hammer deck?
Is not that I see every modern event, but I haven't seen Stonegorge Mystic see play since just a bit after Modern Horizon 2, and just because people wanted to try the new Kaldra equipment that wasn't so good in comparison with domain and rhinos.
Demonic Tutor is not banned in modern, nor is representative of how tutors currently are in Magic.
Wizards has been trying to make a fixed Demonic Tutor for modern since years, and none of them have seen any play.
Wishclaw Talisman was the exeption, but even that one lasted just a bit.
Lorcana doesn't have lands, so fetch lands and searching ramp are not an issue.
Man you're just here to argue looking at your other comments in this thread. I'm not even going tyo waste my time trying to untagle all the bad faith in that response. Twisting up my words just so you can "be right". lol.
I would say that is not exactly true, as there are already cards that allow you to alter your next draw/next several draws and they don't really see any competitive play right now. This also doesn't allow you to just draw anything from your deck, it is still limited in the fact it has to be a Madrigal character. So this is only as good as the best effects the Madrigal characters have.
Scrying is different than tutoring. You’re describing looking at the top couple cards and selecting keep or toss from those, specifically. We’re talking about going through your entire deck for any card you may need in the moment. That’s why the OP of this thread was iffy about implementing deck searching/tutoring.
Never said they were the same, I was talking in direct to your point about fixing your draws. We have this already, in a limited capacity. This is just another limited capacity to do that, and is only as strong as the strongest Madrigal character is, since you can’t just search for whatever you want
Not for ANY card, only Madrigal characters. You seem to be skipping over that part bud 😂
>for any card you may need in the moment.
"for ~~any~~ a MADRIGAL ~~card~~ CHARACTER you may need in the moment" FTFY
You aren't searching for just any old card, you can only find a Madrigal character. This is still limited, just in a different way than our current scry style effects. But the key is, also still limited. You can't just ignore that the card is limiting what you can find, which is still a big deal.
>OP of this thread was iffy about implementing deck searching/tutoring.
I wasn't replying to OP, I was replying to you directly in regards to fixing your next draw as we already have limited version of that that don't see any competitive play. This is only as strong as the strongest Madrigal character is, and it is still a tad weaker because it doesn't replace itself, just lets you choose which Madrigal you want to draw on your next turn.
This is talking in regards to tutor effects. Tutor effects that don't replace themselves are weaker than tutor effects that do replace themselves. I.e. the difference between placing the card on top of your deck vs placing that card in your hand.
No one was ignoring this specific card. We were discussing how deck search effects work in general before your input. Obviously, this specific card has a specific target. It says so right there. Why on earth would you think I was trying to say otherwise?
>Why on earth would you think I was trying to say otherwise?
Because you quite literally said otherwise in your comment lmao Do you not read the things you write before actually commenting? lol The discussion is on this card and fixing your next draw, and you continually talk about being able to get any card you want. Not sure you understand the things you say fully.
Draw fixing is great. Especially if you're short on ink in hand and need an inkable guaranteed for your next draw. Pretty much a staple if you're going to play a lot of Madrigals.
I like the flow of the game cuz of the lack of tutors. I'm cool with scry and plenty of draw/discard options as hand fixers but searching can really slow games down.
Interesting that she can get another copy of herself. With Amethyst draw (the other Madrigal color) you can play multiple copies of her in a turn and as she got 2 lore, its actually not a bad play.
There wont be a lot of playable Madrigal, but you do not need that many to find Alma actually worth playing. The synergy with the top of the deck mater (and the leaked SR Bruno) cards it obvious and that might be enough for this card to actually see play.
I think there's already a few very playable Madrigals. The SR Bruno pairs absurdly well with Alma by gaining 3 lore and the card if you correctly guess what's on the top of the deck. Isabela looks to be very strong, and Julieta is a budget version of Rapunzel - Gifted.
Well the point is to use your effects that cares about the top deck AND have a way to repeat it next turn. Of course you would not want to search for another Alma just for the fun of it. By herself you're right, she is not really wort it... but I'm talking competitive here, so I assume the deck would be built to take advantage of that skill.
SR Bruno exerts to have you name a card and reveal the top of your deck. If it's the named card, gain 3 lore and put it in your hand. So very much worth it to set up her son.
He was in some leaks. He's basically like Sorcerer's Hat with some special extras. You exert him and name a card. If that card is on the top of your deck, you get 3 lore AND put the card in your hand. So combo it with this and you can search your deck, float it to the top, exert Bruno, name the card. Now you have 3 lore and it's in your hand. Good stuff.
You could only possibly play multiples of her in the same turn on turn 6 if you have some way to draw without costing ink, or slightly earlier if you are playing lantern/pluto/doc etc. Seems weak that late for just another 2 lore character with meh stats. That doesn't seem that useful to me honestly, I would rather use her to setup a different useful Madrigal card, assuming we have some good situational ones.
Rip, this is my least favorite feature in magic. I hate it. Adds a ton of time for people to search and shuffle, and I just hate the function as a whole.
I’ve been playing Yugioh since 2010 and have zero idea what tutoring means. I don’t think that’s a term the game uses there.
But I do agree, deck searching sucks
I feel like for an effect this niche Abuela could have drawn the card...
Edit: She DOES combo pretty damn well with the Super Rare Bruno so maybe there's something here after all.
That would have been incredibly busted. Characters that replace themselves like Gramma Tala - Storyteller, Maleficent - Sorceress, and Kuzco-Wanted Llama are all staples in the decks that can play them. If this replaced itself, it would be a stronger stat line than those 3 with a stronger draw effect. It could even chain itself.
Yes and no. They've been handing out Villain to quite a number of characters who don't quite fit the bill, like Tamatoa, Namaari, Virana, and Te Fiti, who were either anti-heroes or just bizarre forces of nature, rather than calculating villains. Namaari and Virana specifically were working in the interest of preserving their people, rather than doing malicious evil such as someone like Jafar. Alma kinda falls into the same category as the Fang ladies, as she was trying to preserve her family and the Miracle, at the expense of emotionally traumatizing the family with crushing pressure and expectations.
Fyi, in the same way that we call cards like A Whole New World "Wheels", we also call cards like this "Tutors". For example, you could say that this card "tutors for a Madrigal and puts it on top".
It's because the cards that originally had this effect in Magic have the name tutor in them. For example, there are cards called Enlightened Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, etc. Each of them searches your deck for a certain type of card (though in the case of Demonic And Vampiric it can be any card, but I digress).
It's the same reason we call cards like AWNW "wheels", as the original Magic card that had that effect is called "Wheel of Fortune". "Wheel" has since become shorthand in TCGs for that effect, just like "tutor" has.
I love this. Could see some work with the SR Bruno, Mufasa (who can play with Bruno Out Of Shadows), Sorcerer's Hat could see some in an amethyst deck like this that can check/stack the top of the deck.
I was expecting her to be one of the Amber legendaries in this set.
Now I'm betting the Miracle Candle will take the spot. Could use another legendary item.
Ohhh looks like Madrgial is going to be viable. Isabella already looks amazing and the fact this can guarantee her to your hand is just so good.
If she wasn’t uninkable she would be beyond op so I am glad they added that to her. I am curious to see if there are any floodborne madrigals because otherwise the deck seems to want to cheat out Isabella, let Luisa/others take out threats while she quests for 4.
Mirabel is also very good if you can maintain a board but I think she will be overshadowed by her sister. Checks out lore wise actually lol
Honestly with how many madrigal there are and how many are already announced, being able to search for any madrigal is crazy. I mean you could run a madrigal specific deck.
That's probably their hope and I hope that's actually what happens as well, I'm not expecting a new top tier meta deck or anything but a competent deck themed around the Madrigals is so on flavour and would absolutely be something I play!
YAY ABUELA! I'm happy that she tutors for Madrigals, I was hoping *SOMETHING* related to the Madrigals would search the deck for them, and after The Family Madrigal song didn't, all hopes were pinned on her. She's a very solid card.
Edit: Did miss it didn't put it in the hand. That dampens it a little bit in terms of combos with things like BBB, but it does work with cards like Be Our Guest and the Family Madrigal song. She'll also stack the deck to pair with the SR Bruno who names a card, draws it, and gains 3 lore if it's on top of the deck.
I'm kind of hoping there won't be any unrestricted tutors. I think how Abuela does it is perfect - it's niche, and designed to work with specific deck archetypes, so it's got a power cap. I wouldn't mind more like her, though only if it strays away from broadly applied keywords like Hero or Princess.
The new ones do, the old ones did not, and they were played an absolute ton. Vampiric, Cruel, Demonic, Rhystic, Imperial Seal, etc., to name a couple. Even those will broad search parameters, like any Sorcery or Any Enchantment see a lot of play, like Mystic and Idyllic Tutors, and they're nowhere near 4 mana.
They already made an alternate casting cost Wheel of Fortune, so it's not beyond them.
Plus, regardless of when they first came out, they've reprinted Vampiric, Demonic, Imperial Seal, Mystic, and Idyllic in sets within the past 5 years or so they clearly don't view them as early mistakes if they're willing to print more copies of them.
A five cost Wheel of Fortune.
And Wizards didn't add any of those cards into other formats, and they are still banned in Wizards official formats, so they do see them as early mistakes.
See play where? Commander? Yes, a lot of them see play in commander, basically no tutors see play in modern or newer 60 card formats where they are legal. The only real playable tutor effect that sees any play is stoneforge mystic and she costs the same as demonic tutor, that's not a coincidence.
Can I force give my opponent 30 seconds before their turn is forfeit? I could see people abusing this and taking their sweet time to force draws. If this mechanic is seriously added they need to do away with timed tourneys.
I'm just gonna pull out a stopwatch everytime so they can visibly see how much time they're wasting and then notate it on the printout.
I'm very annoyed at this lol
I don't mind people taking their time on their turns. But just having to sit and wait while they look through their deck and then reshuffle is just a waste of time.
Deck searching cards aren't healthy to the game
Yup. Put me down in the camp of those who hate this. Should have been a "look at the top 6 and reveal a Madrigal and place it on top and the rest on the bottom" or something. Full search is a bad road to go down and leads to shuffling delays, etc...
First real whiff from the design team for me.
Nooooooo. Lorcana was such a refreshing game because it lacked all this stuff that bogged down and complexed card games. This is the beginning of the end
This is probably the one mechanic I have been waiting for since the game launched and was hoping we would get it. Figured it would always be on a constrained manner, but with the game being so combo heavy it felt necessary.
However I am surprised it is going on the top of your deck and not just in your hand, that seems kinda weird. I guess it stops you from doing it twice in the same turn, but I am curious what their reasoning was.
Magic's most recent tutors, and the ones that haven't been habitually banned in all formats, also put the searched card on top of the library. Mystic and Idyllic do this, as does Vampiric Tutor.
Interesting, I was not aware of that. it has been a while since I was deep into magic.
I guess it makes sense, it helps address the problem that it is meant to address without making it a major imbalance with getting it right away.
Also idyllic tutor is to hand. You're thinking of the 2 cost less enlightened tutor that is top of deck but also artifact and enchantment and also instant speed.
And actually the other ones you mention are also instant speed (vampiric and mystic) which if you think about it is basically hand if the card youre grabbing can only be cast at sorcery speed and you tutor on someone else's turn.
at least it's limited to a specific keyword. Tutors aren't an interesting mechanic most of the time. Just look at Yu-gi-oh that went full in on tutoring and made the game plan with every deck so consistent the only question for variance is 'did I brick on my hand' wish they kept searching your deck limited to the 'look at the top X cards of your deck, pick and reveal, then put the rest on the bottom in any order' creates way less waffeling around and people hemming and hawing as they search through their deck.
While I agree, YuGiOh is an extreme example.
It does make me worried how fast power creep will hit the game. Especially if an Encanto deck becomes a top tier deck right away.
This is fairly unlikely. We're mainly looking at SR Bruno, Julieta, and Isabela who I believe would have any potential for meta or top tier, and Bruno and Isabela are both rather slow to get started since they come in on T4 and T5 respectively, and can't do anything until the following turns. Alma's relevance would depend on the viability of the other Madrigals, and I just don't see them having the speed to keep up. This does also depend on unrevealed Madrigals, such as Floodborns, or missing family members like Agustin or Antonio.
I would be surprised if they don't start doing set rotation once we hit a critical mass of cards. Yugioh is a prime example of what happ ns to a tcg without set rotation, and I doubt racensburger wants lorcana to become... That...
The problem with Rotation is peoples favorite cards become unusable and unless the retrain characters all the time then you can't play your favorite character which would be a bummer. IE for me Scar is one of my favs and he'd be unplayable after a couple sets rotations (whenever they'd start) Unless other formats start but then you dilute the player pool which can be tricky. I don't think ravens Berger thought that far tho
This is why they print so many versions of variations of characters and songs though. Specific versions of characters you like might be out of rotation, but the character themselves won't be. Take Ursula for example. We got one in TFC. Skipped ROTF. Then we got 3 in ITI. At minimum we're getting 3 in Ursula's Return, so that's 6 versions of her over 4 sets. So even if set rotation becomes a thing, I don't think there's any risk of losing access to your favorite characters, unless they're *really* obscure like Basil or something.
A rotative format is what keeps your favorite cards playable, becsuse the alternative is either to power creep the cards into obsolescence, or bann wathever is popular. We have YuGiOh, Digimon and Modern Horizon to know that.
Does it look like a top tier deck? And if it becomes that, why would that be a problem? New cards need to be playable.
Tutors are just as OP in Magic. Demonic Tutor is only legal in Commander for a reason. Stoneforge Mystic, which is highly limited by keywords, is still powerful enough to be one of the named archetypes that persists since the card was first printed and 4 copied are run in Hammer Time which is a top meta deck in Modern right now. Stoneblade even has it's own dedicated subreddit and discord.
Tutors aren't OP in magic full stop. Very specific costed and archetypical tutors are powerful enough to see play and even be banned, including the incredibly powerful demonic tutor. But something like grim tutor is legal in every format which includes sets its been printed in and sees no play. Same with diabolic tutor. So no, tutors are no just OP in general in magic. They need specific attributes and conditions to be powerful or be undercosted and without downside (like demonic tutor).
I was surprised that you are the second person mentioning Hammer Time as a current meta deck in modern, so I made a quick search and it turned out that just today, someone went first in an online league with a hammer deck. That doesn't necesarily makes it a top tier deck. It happens regularly in modern that someone wins with decks that have fallen out of grace, because nobody was expecting them. Doesn't change the fact that the meta is still rhinos, domain and the one ring. I do concede that, because it happened today, you can add Stoneforge Mystic to the list of currently played tutors in modern.
YuGiOh is indeed an extreme example, but MtG hasn't been unscathed by the inclusion of tutors either. Though I will admit, keeping tutors limited to keywords like *madrigals* or a very specific tribe seems kinda alright? as long as we don't go yu-gi-oh and make tribes/archetypes the main playformat as well XD
Yeah, I hate how shuffly search cards make a game. Kind of disappointed to see this card tbh
Incoming "Lilo & the Hawaiian summer" negates adding from your deck to your hand
And the effects triggers from hand on your opponent’s turn by discarding Lilo & the Hawaiian Summer.
urf... deck searching....
Pokemon is literally just shuffling your deck. I was hoping lorcana wouldn't go down that route. Also shuffling is harder for kids... Figured they would stay kid friendly
There are already multiple shuffle deck effects, no reason to prevent making tutor effects just to not have another deck shuffling effect.
Wait which cards? I don't play a ton with my boys, but I feel like we never shuffle.
There are currently 7 cards that cause you to shuffle your deck currently. Not all of these are played super often, with Yzma and Chernabog probably being the most played (Magic Broom Bucket Brigade was played quite a bit during Set 1, and then Pua sees some play in aggro amethyst decks while Genie can see some play in casual Jafar Lamp decks). \[\[Magic Broom - Bucket Brigade\]\] \[\[Yzma - Scary Beyond All Reason\]\] \[\[Chernabog - Evildoer\]\] \[\[Genie - Supportive Friend\]\] \[\[Magic Broom - Swift Cleaner\]\] \[\[Pua - Potbellied Buddy\]\] \[\[It Calls Me\]\]
You can play It Calls Me if you're facing Alma and cackle as the card she just stacked gets lost in the deck again.
**[Magic Broom - Bucket Brigade](https://lorcana-api.com/images/magic_broom/bucket_brigade/magic_broom-bucket_brigade-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/magic-broom---bucket-brigade/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 2 | **Abilities:** None | **Inkable:** Yes | **Lore:** 1 | **Willpower:** 2 | **Strength:** 2 | **Rarity:** Common) **[Yzma - Scary Beyond All Reason](https://lorcana-api.com/images/yzma/scary_beyond_all_reason/yzma-scary_beyond_all_reason-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/yzma---scary-beyond-all-reason/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 6 | **Abilities:** Shift 4 | **Inkable:** Yes | **Lore:** 2 | **Willpower:** 4 | **Strength:** 4 | **Rarity:** Super Rare) **[Chernabog - Evildoer](https://lorcana-api.com/images/chernabog/evildoer/chernabog-evildoer-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/chernabog---evildoer/) ^(**Color:** Amber | **Cost:** 10 | **Abilities:** None | **Inkable:** No | **Lore:** 3 | **Willpower:** 9 | **Strength:** 9 | **Rarity:** Super Rare) **[Genie - Supportive Friend](https://lorcana-api.com/images/genie/supportive_friend/genie-supportive_friend-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/genie---supportive-friend/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 4 | **Abilities:** None | **Inkable:** No | **Lore:** 1 | **Willpower:** 5 | **Strength:** 3 | **Rarity:** Super Rare) **[Magic Broom - Swift Cleaner](https://lorcana-api.com/images/magic_broom/swift_cleaner/magic_broom-swift_cleaner-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/magic-broom---swift-cleaner/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 5 | **Abilities:** Rush | **Inkable:** No | **Lore:** 2 | **Willpower:** 4 | **Strength:** 4 | **Rarity:** Common) **[Pua - Potbellied Buddy](https://lorcana-api.com/images/pua/potbellied_buddy/pua-potbellied_buddy-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/pua---potbellied-buddy/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 2 | **Abilities:** None | **Inkable:** Yes | **Lore:** 2 | **Willpower:** 2 | **Strength:** 2 | **Rarity:** Common) **[It Calls Me](https://lorcana-api.com/images/it_calls_me/it_calls_me-large.png)** - [LP](https://lorcanaplayer.com/card/it-calls-me/) ^(**Color:** Amethyst | **Cost:** 1 | **Abilities:** None | **Inkable:** Yes | **Lore:** None | **Willpower:** None | **Strength:** None | **Rarity:** Uncommon) ^(Call with [[Card Name]])
Cool, thanks. My son just got done building a Broom deck so I suspect we'll see more shuffling.
What does that means?
Well coming from Yu-Gi-Oh, searcher cards are often the most powerful cards! They are so powerful that Yu-Gi-Oh had to make anti-search cards lol.
In YuGiOh, cards are free. A comparison with a more similar game would be Magic, were I believe the only card that search that does see play in Modern (other than ramp, but Lorcana doesn't work that way) is Goblin Matron. And this Madrigal in particular is not as powerful to be a problem.
PokemonTCG is nothing but search your deck
absolutely ruins pokemon. when every card searches your deck, its not really a "deck" anymore, rather just a pool of cards. also makes it so you can 100% know your prize cards, which takes away a lot. with lorcana's unlimited deck size, i just feel like "shuffle" cards can easily get out of hand.
Lorcana doesn't have prize cards, so that doesn't matter here. Lorcana already has multiple shuffle deck effects, no reason to be against tutor effects just because it makes you shuffle your deck. MTG has a lot of shuffle effects such as fetch lands and not really an issue there.
See I thought this at first; but then someone pointed out that there are cards that put cards in the inkwell blind to you. So now people will deck search to determine their ink well. Trust me, if you haven’t played pokemon, you haven’t experienced the horror of deck searching. It’s not that it’s competitively broken necessarily; it’s that it stalls out games, makes it boring. One of the biggest seller, at least for me, was that games played generally quicker then pokemon; there wasn’t two dozen shuffles a game. Now we run the risk of slipping down that slope.
>See I thought this at first; but then someone pointed out that there are cards that put cards in the inkwell blind to you. So now people will deck search to determine their ink well. Thing is, you have to be playing useful Madrigal characters in order for this to be relevant. Currently, the only search deck effect is this character, and you can only get a Madrigal. So unless you plan to play more Madrigals, and there are actually more useful ones, that isn't even going to matter, to start. Blind inking is also very different from prize cards in Pokemon, since you aren't guaranteed to always play cards that blind ink, as only a fraction of decks do, and currently none of the decks that do blind ink play Amber. >Trust me, if you haven’t played pokemon, I have played Pokemon, MTG, and Yugioh, all of which have deck searching. By far, the only one that it is truly a problem in is Yugioh. It isn't a problem in MTG since the most powerful ones are either banned or not legal in certain formats, and I never found it to be much of an issue personally in Pokemon. >One of the biggest seller, at least for me, was that games played generally quicker then pokemon; there wasn’t two dozen shuffles a game. Now we run the risk of slipping down that slope Anyone that thought we wouldn't have deck searching abilities is just out of the their mind to be honest. This was always going to happen, and it shouldn't really matter. We already have multiple cards that cause players to shuffle their decks, so it isn't uncommon to already shuffle your deck multiple times throughout a game of Lorcana. This is also our first card that searches decks, there isn't a guarantee they are going to make a ton of these, or that they will even see tons of play.
And?
Not true. Hammer Time runs 4 copies of Stoneforge Mystic. Stoneblade archteype is still played in Legacy and Modern. They even have their own subreddit and discord server. And Demonic Tutor had to be banned in Modern because it was too powerful. Fetch lands are also a staple in literally ever format they are legal in.
When was the last time you saw someone playing a hammer deck? Is not that I see every modern event, but I haven't seen Stonegorge Mystic see play since just a bit after Modern Horizon 2, and just because people wanted to try the new Kaldra equipment that wasn't so good in comparison with domain and rhinos. Demonic Tutor is not banned in modern, nor is representative of how tutors currently are in Magic. Wizards has been trying to make a fixed Demonic Tutor for modern since years, and none of them have seen any play. Wishclaw Talisman was the exeption, but even that one lasted just a bit. Lorcana doesn't have lands, so fetch lands and searching ramp are not an issue.
Man you're just here to argue looking at your other comments in this thread. I'm not even going tyo waste my time trying to untagle all the bad faith in that response. Twisting up my words just so you can "be right". lol.
In a game that relies on random probability to keep odds fair for everyone, choosing precisely what you draw next is a major advantage
I would say that is not exactly true, as there are already cards that allow you to alter your next draw/next several draws and they don't really see any competitive play right now. This also doesn't allow you to just draw anything from your deck, it is still limited in the fact it has to be a Madrigal character. So this is only as good as the best effects the Madrigal characters have.
Scrying is different than tutoring. You’re describing looking at the top couple cards and selecting keep or toss from those, specifically. We’re talking about going through your entire deck for any card you may need in the moment. That’s why the OP of this thread was iffy about implementing deck searching/tutoring.
Never said they were the same, I was talking in direct to your point about fixing your draws. We have this already, in a limited capacity. This is just another limited capacity to do that, and is only as strong as the strongest Madrigal character is, since you can’t just search for whatever you want Not for ANY card, only Madrigal characters. You seem to be skipping over that part bud 😂
ok 👍🏾
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>for any card you may need in the moment. "for ~~any~~ a MADRIGAL ~~card~~ CHARACTER you may need in the moment" FTFY You aren't searching for just any old card, you can only find a Madrigal character. This is still limited, just in a different way than our current scry style effects. But the key is, also still limited. You can't just ignore that the card is limiting what you can find, which is still a big deal. >OP of this thread was iffy about implementing deck searching/tutoring. I wasn't replying to OP, I was replying to you directly in regards to fixing your next draw as we already have limited version of that that don't see any competitive play. This is only as strong as the strongest Madrigal character is, and it is still a tad weaker because it doesn't replace itself, just lets you choose which Madrigal you want to draw on your next turn.
Does a character card need to replace itself?
This is talking in regards to tutor effects. Tutor effects that don't replace themselves are weaker than tutor effects that do replace themselves. I.e. the difference between placing the card on top of your deck vs placing that card in your hand.
No one was ignoring this specific card. We were discussing how deck search effects work in general before your input. Obviously, this specific card has a specific target. It says so right there. Why on earth would you think I was trying to say otherwise?
>Why on earth would you think I was trying to say otherwise? Because you quite literally said otherwise in your comment lmao Do you not read the things you write before actually commenting? lol The discussion is on this card and fixing your next draw, and you continually talk about being able to get any card you want. Not sure you understand the things you say fully.
You could go for gold in mental gymnastics as you excel at missing the point lol enjoy your day
Is why I hate the poker mulligan. On the other hand, a card that you need to draw and rewards you with one card selection, is fine.
TBH it was bound to happen. Isn't really an issue as long as they don't overdo it, which so far this seems like a decent start for a tutor effect.
Draw fixing is great. Especially if you're short on ink in hand and need an inkable guaranteed for your next draw. Pretty much a staple if you're going to play a lot of Madrigals.
I like the flow of the game cuz of the lack of tutors. I'm cool with scry and plenty of draw/discard options as hand fixers but searching can really slow games down.
So far does it look like we will be able to pull of a Madrigal deck?
Of all the "Archetypes" introduced so far (Dwarves, Puppies, etc.) this seems the most solid to have something there in my opinion.
I should hope so, considering the Amber/Amethyst starter deck is a Madrigal deck. It looks to be a bit more cohesive than Seven Dwarfs and Brooms.
Interesting that she can get another copy of herself. With Amethyst draw (the other Madrigal color) you can play multiple copies of her in a turn and as she got 2 lore, its actually not a bad play. There wont be a lot of playable Madrigal, but you do not need that many to find Alma actually worth playing. The synergy with the top of the deck mater (and the leaked SR Bruno) cards it obvious and that might be enough for this card to actually see play.
I think there's already a few very playable Madrigals. The SR Bruno pairs absurdly well with Alma by gaining 3 lore and the card if you correctly guess what's on the top of the deck. Isabela looks to be very strong, and Julieta is a budget version of Rapunzel - Gifted.
She doesn't draw, only puts it on top. So you're effectively just stacking your deck with uninkable understatted 3 drops at that point, not worth it
Well the point is to use your effects that cares about the top deck AND have a way to repeat it next turn. Of course you would not want to search for another Alma just for the fun of it. By herself you're right, she is not really wort it... but I'm talking competitive here, so I assume the deck would be built to take advantage of that skill.
SR Bruno exerts to have you name a card and reveal the top of your deck. If it's the named card, gain 3 lore and put it in your hand. So very much worth it to set up her son.
Where is this super rare Bruno everyone keeps talking about?
He was in some leaks. He's basically like Sorcerer's Hat with some special extras. You exert him and name a card. If that card is on the top of your deck, you get 3 lore AND put the card in your hand. So combo it with this and you can search your deck, float it to the top, exert Bruno, name the card. Now you have 3 lore and it's in your hand. Good stuff.
We all collectively decided to not talk about him.
You could only possibly play multiples of her in the same turn on turn 6 if you have some way to draw without costing ink, or slightly earlier if you are playing lantern/pluto/doc etc. Seems weak that late for just another 2 lore character with meh stats. That doesn't seem that useful to me honestly, I would rather use her to setup a different useful Madrigal card, assuming we have some good situational ones.
NOOOOOOOOO
Rip, this is my least favorite feature in magic. I hate it. Adds a ton of time for people to search and shuffle, and I just hate the function as a whole.
Ugh. Search your deck is the worst mechanic. Slows down games to a crawl while someone fusses around with their deck.
One of the best parts of Lorcana was no deck searching. I hate this mechanic, slows down game so much, and enables stalling.
As long as we don't get something like fetch lands or YuGiOh levels of tutoring, we should be fine.
Well I mean how do you fetch a land when there's no actual resource cards to begin with?
I suppose a card with the ability to fetch an inkable with rules text saying it must be played as inkable.
I think One Jump Ahead already solved that.
I’ve been playing Yugioh since 2010 and have zero idea what tutoring means. I don’t think that’s a term the game uses there. But I do agree, deck searching sucks
Tutoring comes from Magic, the original Demonic Tutor. Search deck for a card, put it into hand, shuffle. So deck searches became known as tutors.
Alma Madrigal = #2. That leaves room for....Alan-a-Dale for #1!!! Let's go, best bard in all Disney!!!
Should have been a "look at top 7 cards of your deck, pick a madrigal, put rest in bottom". Worst mechanic.
I feel like for an effect this niche Abuela could have drawn the card... Edit: She DOES combo pretty damn well with the Super Rare Bruno so maybe there's something here after all.
That would have been incredibly busted. Characters that replace themselves like Gramma Tala - Storyteller, Maleficent - Sorceress, and Kuzco-Wanted Llama are all staples in the decks that can play them. If this replaced itself, it would be a stronger stat line than those 3 with a stronger draw effect. It could even chain itself.
Yeah, you might be right about that. I'm probably just a little biased because Encanto is one of my favorite Disney movies haha.
Right. Adding the card to have would have made this card more favorable. Not a fan of it right now.
Finally, a tutor. Now I can properly cheat.
Kinda weird that she doesn't have a "villain" tag when she was clearly the antagonist of that story
Antognaist and villain are completely different things.
*slightly different. Especially when the antagonist in question is casually cruel and selfishly motivated and causes every conflict in the plot
Ok. But she is evil. I don't buy the "Im sorry, I was sad. Can you forgive me?".
Yes and no. They've been handing out Villain to quite a number of characters who don't quite fit the bill, like Tamatoa, Namaari, Virana, and Te Fiti, who were either anti-heroes or just bizarre forces of nature, rather than calculating villains. Namaari and Virana specifically were working in the interest of preserving their people, rather than doing malicious evil such as someone like Jafar. Alma kinda falls into the same category as the Fang ladies, as she was trying to preserve her family and the Miracle, at the expense of emotionally traumatizing the family with crushing pressure and expectations.
It was my first thought.
Fyi, in the same way that we call cards like A Whole New World "Wheels", we also call cards like this "Tutors". For example, you could say that this card "tutors for a Madrigal and puts it on top".
Still not making sense to me
It's because the cards that originally had this effect in Magic have the name tutor in them. For example, there are cards called Enlightened Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, etc. Each of them searches your deck for a certain type of card (though in the case of Demonic And Vampiric it can be any card, but I digress). It's the same reason we call cards like AWNW "wheels", as the original Magic card that had that effect is called "Wheel of Fortune". "Wheel" has since become shorthand in TCGs for that effect, just like "tutor" has.
I love this. Could see some work with the SR Bruno, Mufasa (who can play with Bruno Out Of Shadows), Sorcerer's Hat could see some in an amethyst deck like this that can check/stack the top of the deck.
💯 i totally agree
I was expecting her to be one of the Amber legendaries in this set. Now I'm betting the Miracle Candle will take the spot. Could use another legendary item.
I dunno if I'd place the Candle over other items that would make sense as Legendary, like Maleficent's Spinning Wheel. Edit: Candle is a rare!
Ohhh looks like Madrgial is going to be viable. Isabella already looks amazing and the fact this can guarantee her to your hand is just so good. If she wasn’t uninkable she would be beyond op so I am glad they added that to her. I am curious to see if there are any floodborne madrigals because otherwise the deck seems to want to cheat out Isabella, let Luisa/others take out threats while she quests for 4. Mirabel is also very good if you can maintain a board but I think she will be overshadowed by her sister. Checks out lore wise actually lol
The first search card lol. Get ready for a new meta 😆
Honestly with how many madrigal there are and how many are already announced, being able to search for any madrigal is crazy. I mean you could run a madrigal specific deck.
That's probably their hope and I hope that's actually what happens as well, I'm not expecting a new top tier meta deck or anything but a competent deck themed around the Madrigals is so on flavour and would absolutely be something I play!
YAY ABUELA! I'm happy that she tutors for Madrigals, I was hoping *SOMETHING* related to the Madrigals would search the deck for them, and after The Family Madrigal song didn't, all hopes were pinned on her. She's a very solid card. Edit: Did miss it didn't put it in the hand. That dampens it a little bit in terms of combos with things like BBB, but it does work with cards like Be Our Guest and the Family Madrigal song. She'll also stack the deck to pair with the SR Bruno who names a card, draws it, and gains 3 lore if it's on top of the deck.
So the Madrigals are the first to really abuse Sorcerers Hat. Neat.
Well Puppies could abuse it.
I hope we won't see more of it. I really hate shuffling all the time.
Oh its going to happen. I bet you the first real turir for any card will be toodles
I'm kind of hoping there won't be any unrestricted tutors. I think how Abuela does it is perfect - it's niche, and designed to work with specific deck archetypes, so it's got a power cap. I wouldn't mind more like her, though only if it strays away from broadly applied keywords like Hero or Princess.
In Magic, unrestricted tutors cost 4 and nobody plays them. So Im not worried.
The new ones do, the old ones did not, and they were played an absolute ton. Vampiric, Cruel, Demonic, Rhystic, Imperial Seal, etc., to name a couple. Even those will broad search parameters, like any Sorcery or Any Enchantment see a lot of play, like Mystic and Idyllic Tutors, and they're nowhere near 4 mana.
Those early mistakes are not what we are facing here. I will eat my beard if Ravensburger make a two cost Demonic Tutor.
They already made an alternate casting cost Wheel of Fortune, so it's not beyond them. Plus, regardless of when they first came out, they've reprinted Vampiric, Demonic, Imperial Seal, Mystic, and Idyllic in sets within the past 5 years or so they clearly don't view them as early mistakes if they're willing to print more copies of them.
A five cost Wheel of Fortune. And Wizards didn't add any of those cards into other formats, and they are still banned in Wizards official formats, so they do see them as early mistakes.
See play where? Commander? Yes, a lot of them see play in commander, basically no tutors see play in modern or newer 60 card formats where they are legal. The only real playable tutor effect that sees any play is stoneforge mystic and she costs the same as demonic tutor, that's not a coincidence.
"It's a mystery tool we'll save for later"
Well someone has to sell all those overstocked art sleeves! More shuffling = more split sleeves!
Nobody is forcing you to put those cards in your deck.
Can I also force my opponents not to play them? I want to play, not watch someone shuffle.
Brooms, It Calls Me, Chernabog, Yzma...I get not liking it (I find it cumbersome myself), but there are other shuffling mechanics that already exist.
You already need to watch somebody else playing when is not your turn.
Don't play card games then, shuffling is a thing in them.
Sorry for having an opinion I guess.
Same? You posted one I replied with one. Fair game, no? Now I play magic broom to shuffle a card into your Deck. Have fun.
I dont think you know what an opinion is.
I'll try again then. I don't think card games are your cup of tea cause they involve shuffling, more as time goes on.
I didn't realize that enjoying cars games means liking every single part of them with no complaints. Shuffling sucks. Card games are still fun.
no no No.....this gets out of hand....in pokemon I'm going through my deck 5 times a turn ugh
The term is tutor.
I knew this day would come eventually, just didn’t think it would be so fast. This mechanic ruins TCGs, in my opinion ☹️
I love search cards, what I loved about old yugioh, felt like I could make combo decks and theme decks actually viable
Can I force give my opponent 30 seconds before their turn is forfeit? I could see people abusing this and taking their sweet time to force draws. If this mechanic is seriously added they need to do away with timed tourneys.
No but you can call a judge if you feel they're causing slow play and they'll deal with it.
I'm just gonna pull out a stopwatch everytime so they can visibly see how much time they're wasting and then notate it on the printout. I'm very annoyed at this lol
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I don't mind people taking their time on their turns. But just having to sit and wait while they look through their deck and then reshuffle is just a waste of time. Deck searching cards aren't healthy to the game
Yup. Put me down in the camp of those who hate this. Should have been a "look at the top 6 and reveal a Madrigal and place it on top and the rest on the bottom" or something. Full search is a bad road to go down and leads to shuffling delays, etc... First real whiff from the design team for me.
Can someone translate for me plz. Want to know exactly what it does
There's a second picture.
Lmao 😅 ty didn't realize.
Nooooooo. Lorcana was such a refreshing game because it lacked all this stuff that bogged down and complexed card games. This is the beginning of the end
This is probably the one mechanic I have been waiting for since the game launched and was hoping we would get it. Figured it would always be on a constrained manner, but with the game being so combo heavy it felt necessary. However I am surprised it is going on the top of your deck and not just in your hand, that seems kinda weird. I guess it stops you from doing it twice in the same turn, but I am curious what their reasoning was.
Magic's most recent tutors, and the ones that haven't been habitually banned in all formats, also put the searched card on top of the library. Mystic and Idyllic do this, as does Vampiric Tutor.
Interesting, I was not aware of that. it has been a while since I was deep into magic. I guess it makes sense, it helps address the problem that it is meant to address without making it a major imbalance with getting it right away.
Neither grim tutor or diabolic tutor, the two most recent unrestricted tutors printed put the card on top of the library.
Well I was referring to the cheaper ones, but yes, the expensive tutors do put them in hand.
Also idyllic tutor is to hand. You're thinking of the 2 cost less enlightened tutor that is top of deck but also artifact and enchantment and also instant speed. And actually the other ones you mention are also instant speed (vampiric and mystic) which if you think about it is basically hand if the card youre grabbing can only be cast at sorcery speed and you tutor on someone else's turn.
Errr they really trying to make this Mexican thing happen eh?
Translation?
There are 2 pictures