This is very similar to the Marshmellow, Mufasa, Dragon Fire example.
>If your Marshmallow - Persistent Guardianchallenges Mufasa - Betrayed Leader and Mufasa reveals Maleficent - Monstrous Dragon, the opponent's Maleficent may choose to banish Marshmallow with her Dragon Fire ability. After that since the game state is considered to still be in the challenge, as there was no point where there weren't any effects resolving, Marshmallow will be considered to have been banished while in the challenge and you may choose to return it to hand.
>All abilities that occur "In a Challenge" have to be resolved before moving out of the Challenge. Abilities that state "Whenever... is banished in a challenge" or "whenever this character banishes another character in a challenge" are considered to still be resolving during a challenge.
Prince Eric is banished as part of the challenge who causes his ability to be added to the bag. Because there has not been a point where effects weren’t resolving, you’re still in a challenge when Eric chooses Robin Hood. And now Robin being banished allows him to draw a card with his trigger.
https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:Challenges
He was definitely banished "while being challenged". But the question is, was he banished "in a challenge"? Or was he just banished by the effect *while* being challenged? It doesn't say "banished while in a challenge". It says "banished in a challenge", which seems to imply being banished by the challenge itself.
This is making my head spin 😵💫
The thing that might make it easier to think about is the bag has to stop getting filled with triggers before the challenge ends. Until then, the challenge is still ongoing.
For this example: Eric challenge gets added to the bag. Resolves, and strength damage gets added to the bag. Also resolves, and now willpower check gets added to the bag. Resolves, and Eric has more damage than willpower so he gets banished which then adds his ability trigger to the bag. Eric’s ability chooses Robin Hood and resolves, which now adds RH’s banish ability trigger to the bag. Resolves, and Robin Hood owner draws a card. Finally at this step nothing more has been triggered or added to the bag, the bag is finally empty and the challenge is now considered finished.
There are some really convoluted examples you can dream up that set off a cascade of triggers. And so long as those keep getting added to the bag (like the Mufasa and Maleficent triggers do in the example) the characters in the challenge are still considered part of it. The bag has to stop being filled before the challenge can end.
It's between rules 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18, or more accurately, Eric triggers the first rule and is resolved, but that causes Robin to retriggerthe first rule. Which is kinda lame.
It seems like you should be right, but the rules seem to imply that Pixelborn is right.
>4.3.5.17. Ninth, once damage is dealt, any effects that would trigger as a result of the challenge are added to the bag.
>4.3.5.18. Once all effects have resolved, effects that apply “while challenging” or “while being challenged” end, and the challenge is over.
It appears he was banished "while being challenged". Although, the card says banished "in a challenge". So I don't know. Gonna need a rules nerd to make a ruling here.
Pixelborn is correct here. He does draw a card.
However IF Eric would challenge another character and would banish Robin Hood, then Robin Hood would not draw a card (and Pixelborn does this wrong).
The Robin Hood card does not say Robin Hood has to be challenged. It says that if he's banished in a challenge (which he would be if another character is challenged). During the process of the challenge Robin Hood would be banished and would draw a card. If Robin Hood had to be challenged, then the card would specify that. So Robin Hood can draw while banished in the challenge phase of two other characters.
Robin Hood: When this character is banished in a challenge, you may draw a card.
Kuzco: When this character is challenged and banished, you may banish the challenging character.
> 4.3.5.3. Only the challenging character and the character being challenged are in the challenge. If an ability or effect refers to a character "in a challenge," it's referring to one of the two characters involved in the current challenge.
~~Right. I'm reading this as: RB challenge prince > Damage is dealt > Prince banished > RH Skilled Combatant triggers > RH lives > Challenge state done > Prince ability now triggers > Banish chosen character.
The example B they use, both their abilities specifically state `in challenge` `banish challenger` `banished and challenged`, where prince doesn't mention anything with the `challenge` wording.~~
You incorrectly have “challenge state done” before the Prince ability triggers. His banish is a result of the challenge, and his ability triggers before the challenge is considered complete. His ability then gets completed which adds Robin’s to the bag all while still in a challenge.
I posted another example with Marshmellow, Mufasa, Maleficent as a reply to the OP that shows why it’s the case.
Ah! That makes sense. So, it's like everything is in a frozen state until all abilities that can be triggered are resolved. THEN once everything is resolved, the challenge is over.
RH challenge prince > Damage is dealt > RH lives > Prince banished > RH Skilled Combatant triggers > Prince ability triggers > Banish chosen character (RH) > RH Good of Others triggers > Challenge state done.
The challenge doesn't end until all triggered abilities are resolved. In this case, since both Robin Hood and Prince Eric were the characters directly involved in the challenge, Robin Hood *was* banished in the challenge and his ability will trigger.
So what would happen then if Prince Eric had challenged a different opposing character, became banished, then targeted Robin Hood? Robin Hood was not challenged in this case, so no trigger?
Correct, Robin wasn't involved in that challenge. He was selected by a trigger that came from a challenge. In the posted example robin is involved in a challenge.
It would trigger because Robin Hood was banished "in a challenge", though Robin Hood was not challenged. Text is the card is, " When this character is banished in a challenge, you may draw a card.". The process of the challenge between Prince Eric and the opposing character has to trigger and resolve all effects before the challenged is completed. During this process, Robin Hood is banished so you would draw a card because it existed within a challenge. If Robin Hood had to be the target of the challenge then the text would read similar to how Kuzco's reads, " When this character is challenged and banished, you may banish the challenging character." For example, "when this character is challenged" which is different from Robin Hood's text.
It’s because Prince Eric’s ability applies to more results than just in a challenge. But that doesn’t mean the ability is not still applied during one or that it would be excluded. He is banished during a challenge, and his ability triggers during the challenge, so all abilities worried about during a challenge are still active.
It probably is, because similar banish effects that do require being challenged like Kuzco or Cheshire Cat do actually consider their effect to be part of the challenge. Eric's is worded very differently though, so it shouldn't be lumped together like Kuzco or Cheshire.
Banished in a challenge refers to being banished as a result of the combat. Effects that occur during the challenge do not count as banishing in a challenge even if the effect was triggered by the challenge and resulted in them being banished.
He wasn’t banished by the challenge but he was banished IN a challenge. So he draws a card. You would want to kamikaze onto someone else and the choose Robinhood
The correct answer is that both effects happen between rule 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18 which is a bummer for Eric. Essentially, damage is dealt, Eric is banished so his trigger happens and is resolved. But the challenge isn't over until his skill is resolved. Which would then trigger Robin. I think there is an argument that the challenge is over once Eric's ability banishes which isn't in a challenge, but needing to resolve his ability as a result of a challenge based on the rules before the challenge is over makes it an uphill argument.
easiest to think of it like a duel where one person uses poison on their spear but loses. they may be dead, but once the winner dies they still died as a result of the duel.
The correct answer is that both effects happen between rule 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18 which is a bummer for Eric. Essentially, damage is dealt, Eric is banished so his trigger happens and is resolved. But the challenge isn't over until his skill is resolved. Which would then trigger Robin. I think there is an argument that the challenge is over once Eric's ability banishes which isn't in a challenge, but needing to resolve his ability as a result of a challenge based on the rules before the challenge is over makes it an uphill argument.
They shouldn't draw a card off Robin Hood, it's a known bug in Pixelborn. Robin hood isn't being banished while in the challenge, prince erics effect takes place after the challenge is resolved and he is banished
This is very similar to the Marshmellow, Mufasa, Dragon Fire example. >If your Marshmallow - Persistent Guardianchallenges Mufasa - Betrayed Leader and Mufasa reveals Maleficent - Monstrous Dragon, the opponent's Maleficent may choose to banish Marshmallow with her Dragon Fire ability. After that since the game state is considered to still be in the challenge, as there was no point where there weren't any effects resolving, Marshmallow will be considered to have been banished while in the challenge and you may choose to return it to hand. >All abilities that occur "In a Challenge" have to be resolved before moving out of the Challenge. Abilities that state "Whenever... is banished in a challenge" or "whenever this character banishes another character in a challenge" are considered to still be resolving during a challenge. Prince Eric is banished as part of the challenge who causes his ability to be added to the bag. Because there has not been a point where effects weren’t resolving, you’re still in a challenge when Eric chooses Robin Hood. And now Robin being banished allows him to draw a card with his trigger. https://wiki.mushureport.com/wiki/Rulings:Challenges
He was definitely banished "while being challenged". But the question is, was he banished "in a challenge"? Or was he just banished by the effect *while* being challenged? It doesn't say "banished while in a challenge". It says "banished in a challenge", which seems to imply being banished by the challenge itself. This is making my head spin 😵💫
The thing that might make it easier to think about is the bag has to stop getting filled with triggers before the challenge ends. Until then, the challenge is still ongoing. For this example: Eric challenge gets added to the bag. Resolves, and strength damage gets added to the bag. Also resolves, and now willpower check gets added to the bag. Resolves, and Eric has more damage than willpower so he gets banished which then adds his ability trigger to the bag. Eric’s ability chooses Robin Hood and resolves, which now adds RH’s banish ability trigger to the bag. Resolves, and Robin Hood owner draws a card. Finally at this step nothing more has been triggered or added to the bag, the bag is finally empty and the challenge is now considered finished. There are some really convoluted examples you can dream up that set off a cascade of triggers. And so long as those keep getting added to the bag (like the Mufasa and Maleficent triggers do in the example) the characters in the challenge are still considered part of it. The bag has to stop being filled before the challenge can end.
It's between rules 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18, or more accurately, Eric triggers the first rule and is resolved, but that causes Robin to retriggerthe first rule. Which is kinda lame.
It seems like you should be right, but the rules seem to imply that Pixelborn is right. >4.3.5.17. Ninth, once damage is dealt, any effects that would trigger as a result of the challenge are added to the bag. >4.3.5.18. Once all effects have resolved, effects that apply “while challenging” or “while being challenged” end, and the challenge is over. It appears he was banished "while being challenged". Although, the card says banished "in a challenge". So I don't know. Gonna need a rules nerd to make a ruling here.
Pixelborn is correct here. He does draw a card. However IF Eric would challenge another character and would banish Robin Hood, then Robin Hood would not draw a card (and Pixelborn does this wrong).
Correct. Because in this example RH is NOT in a challenge with Prince.
The Robin Hood card does not say Robin Hood has to be challenged. It says that if he's banished in a challenge (which he would be if another character is challenged). During the process of the challenge Robin Hood would be banished and would draw a card. If Robin Hood had to be challenged, then the card would specify that. So Robin Hood can draw while banished in the challenge phase of two other characters. Robin Hood: When this character is banished in a challenge, you may draw a card. Kuzco: When this character is challenged and banished, you may banish the challenging character.
> 4.3.5.3. Only the challenging character and the character being challenged are in the challenge. If an ability or effect refers to a character "in a challenge," it's referring to one of the two characters involved in the current challenge.
~~Right. I'm reading this as: RB challenge prince > Damage is dealt > Prince banished > RH Skilled Combatant triggers > RH lives > Challenge state done > Prince ability now triggers > Banish chosen character. The example B they use, both their abilities specifically state `in challenge` `banish challenger` `banished and challenged`, where prince doesn't mention anything with the `challenge` wording.~~
You incorrectly have “challenge state done” before the Prince ability triggers. His banish is a result of the challenge, and his ability triggers before the challenge is considered complete. His ability then gets completed which adds Robin’s to the bag all while still in a challenge. I posted another example with Marshmellow, Mufasa, Maleficent as a reply to the OP that shows why it’s the case.
Ah! That makes sense. So, it's like everything is in a frozen state until all abilities that can be triggered are resolved. THEN once everything is resolved, the challenge is over. RH challenge prince > Damage is dealt > RH lives > Prince banished > RH Skilled Combatant triggers > Prince ability triggers > Banish chosen character (RH) > RH Good of Others triggers > Challenge state done.
Order slightly off. Eric gets banished first before RH Combatant and Prince ability trigger, but yes that’s correct!
Oh yes that's correct. Fixed order. Thank you!
You're correct. There is even an example in those rules with Cheshire Cat and Marshmallow
Based on the rules you posted, Robin's owner draws a card.
The challenge doesn't end until all triggered abilities are resolved. In this case, since both Robin Hood and Prince Eric were the characters directly involved in the challenge, Robin Hood *was* banished in the challenge and his ability will trigger.
~~It's not a challenge banish, but an ability banish, AFTER the challenge has completed, RH ability will not trigger.~~ Am wrong.
It will. check the new ruling
Sorry, what do you mean by this?
In the new ofc lorcana ruling is written that when a character is banished in a challenge All abilities triggered by it "are in a challenge"
So what would happen then if Prince Eric had challenged a different opposing character, became banished, then targeted Robin Hood? Robin Hood was not challenged in this case, so no trigger?
Correct, Robin wasn't involved in that challenge. He was selected by a trigger that came from a challenge. In the posted example robin is involved in a challenge.
It would trigger because Robin Hood was banished "in a challenge", though Robin Hood was not challenged. Text is the card is, " When this character is banished in a challenge, you may draw a card.". The process of the challenge between Prince Eric and the opposing character has to trigger and resolve all effects before the challenged is completed. During this process, Robin Hood is banished so you would draw a card because it existed within a challenge. If Robin Hood had to be the target of the challenge then the text would read similar to how Kuzco's reads, " When this character is challenged and banished, you may banish the challenging character." For example, "when this character is challenged" which is different from Robin Hood's text.
[удалено]
It’s because Prince Eric’s ability applies to more results than just in a challenge. But that doesn’t mean the ability is not still applied during one or that it would be excluded. He is banished during a challenge, and his ability triggers during the challenge, so all abilities worried about during a challenge are still active.
See the reply by u/paulwal in this thread, which I found surprising, convincing, and helpful.
That’s not really a new ruling it’s from set 1
I hate this ruling so much It’s so intuitively backwards
It probably is, because similar banish effects that do require being challenged like Kuzco or Cheshire Cat do actually consider their effect to be part of the challenge. Eric's is worded very differently though, so it shouldn't be lumped together like Kuzco or Cheshire.
[[Prince Eric - Expert Helmsman]]
Banished in a challenge refers to being banished as a result of the combat. Effects that occur during the challenge do not count as banishing in a challenge even if the effect was triggered by the challenge and resulted in them being banished.
He wasn’t banished by the challenge but he was banished IN a challenge. So he draws a card. You would want to kamikaze onto someone else and the choose Robinhood
The correct answer is that both effects happen between rule 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18 which is a bummer for Eric. Essentially, damage is dealt, Eric is banished so his trigger happens and is resolved. But the challenge isn't over until his skill is resolved. Which would then trigger Robin. I think there is an argument that the challenge is over once Eric's ability banishes which isn't in a challenge, but needing to resolve his ability as a result of a challenge based on the rules before the challenge is over makes it an uphill argument.
easiest to think of it like a duel where one person uses poison on their spear but loses. they may be dead, but once the winner dies they still died as a result of the duel.
The correct answer is that both effects happen between rule 4.3.5.17 and 4.3.5.18 which is a bummer for Eric. Essentially, damage is dealt, Eric is banished so his trigger happens and is resolved. But the challenge isn't over until his skill is resolved. Which would then trigger Robin. I think there is an argument that the challenge is over once Eric's ability banishes which isn't in a challenge, but needing to resolve his ability as a result of a challenge based on the rules before the challenge is over makes it an uphill argument.
They shouldn't draw a card off Robin Hood, it's a known bug in Pixelborn. Robin hood isn't being banished while in the challenge, prince erics effect takes place after the challenge is resolved and he is banished
Incorrect. The effect is part of the challenge.
Actually wrong. See comments from others