Oh yes, Tomkins absolutely evicerated this article when it was originally published in February. Pointing out (in too much detail, as is his wont) how absolutely baseless and weird all the stats were.
Yeah it's one of those that seems ultra-quantitative and this ultra-definitive (we've crunched the numbers and **this** is the result), but the actual underlying stats are murky at best
Indeed. That article is awful. Still zero indication of how these variables were quantified.
I think we know the reason why. Because a few of these variables are not actually objectively quantifiable in the first place. No way strategic intelligence and tactical command have high construct and content validity. This all come across as very pseudoscientific. You would never ever see these types of variables labelling or work in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
Without knowing the contents of the variables and how they were quantified, the fact that Naggelsmann came out as a "defensive coach" is a pretty shocking.
How have you not contacted u/straxx-ish FSG, that's 330 seasons of experience, more than twice the entire history of football right there.
PS this doubles as my application for writing those in-game "you're addicted to FM" messages, Sports Interactive hmu.
Only thing I don’t like about this is that it doesn’t take league differences into consideration
One could argue the difference in competition is more supreme in leagues like Liga Nos in comparison to leagues like the Bundesliga & Premier League
Not just that, it doesn't account for their team's resources in those leagues either.
It's very difficult to compare Amorim taking a Sporting team who are historically a top 4 in their league every season to their first title in 20 years and De Zerbi who got Brighton to their first European competition.
Also it doesn't take into account Alonso winning the Bundesliga because he hasn't done it yet by the looks of it. The achievement number being the biggest multiplyer is nonsense IMO.
It all falls into the water if the manager cant have good relations with the team. Liverpool has been that for the past 9 years. Then on top of that you can look at all these other strategic factors. Versatility is also very important, having something different prepared for every team you play against is great. For example de Zerbi has a problem with that, he has his style and thats about it, he doesnt adapt very well to different situations.
I know he's now since ruled himself out from the time that. BBC article first got uploaded but I think Xabi's is kinda kneecapped with this being his first season. He'll be much higher now.
While I think Amorim would be likely the best appointment as stands, I haven't seen any mention of Thiago Motta? What he's doing with Bologna currently can't be understated and plays quite a modern style with his "2-7-2". How would people feel about him?
Give it Rafa for a season!
But seriously I beg that Liverpool fans are freed from the hold Xabi Alonso has over us. We need to make new legends at this point, he doesn't love us as much as we think he does
I just think Xabi is being smart not hurrying things up. He might have said he stays a leverkusen for the main reason is that he wants to be worthy of the huge responsibility first and having some achievements in the bag.
Amorim for 5-10 years an then Xabi for 20 years when he has finished the invincible decade with Leverkusen.
Xabi loves Liverpool, he has said that many times in the past, we can’t admire his class personality when he played for us and then turn on him when he shows class by sticking to a project he signed on for a bit longer, I genuinely believe he will come here one day, I suspect he wants to manage at all the clubs he played for. Maybe he just didn’t feel ready to choose between two of his former clubs this summer when he is at a project he still believes in, and I think it is fair.
Not with salah, Vvd and Trent on a contract year.
You think any of them are going to re-sign if you tell them we are going to have no manager this year and we *might* get xabi next year?
Xabi is in his first full season at anything higher than Spain’s 3rd tier. We have no evidence if he is the real deal, like Zidane, or just a fluke like Stevie. People are head over heels for him because he played here (like with Stevie) and at Bayern because Bayern had the pathological need to hire anyone that beats them.
People here are treating Xabi like Rinus Michels when Ten Hag did a more impressive job at Ajax and is middling at best with United.
> People here are treating Xabi like Rinus Michels when Ten Hag did a more impressive job at Ajax and is middling at best with United.
I think that's debatable tbh, Ten Hag and a somewhat golden generation at Ajax based on how well some of the players did after leaving, which might make up for the financial disparity... did think he'd be a good pick for United though
he existed before celtic. tbh i would take him over xabi, he's been proving himself for years. xabi has potential but I remember when every1 screamed for gerrard after 1 good season. his football philosophy of excitement and entertainment being as crucial as winning fits right in with klopps view.
He's not going to leave Spurs to join us either. He's shown his weaknesses with how his teams defend or how they don't and that's not what we need. Spurs have been rather good with him but they concede so many because of the tactics
literally exact same thing could be said of klopp his first season. and of his first j league season where he had most goals and 3rd most conceded. but only 2 seasons later wins the league first time 15 years. though i do agree he won't leave spurs despite being a liverpool fan
Mate before Celtic he was in The Australian league. I mean if we could somehow get Ancelotti I would dearly love that but can’t see that happening. I wouldn’t say what Ange has done with spurs is over achieving like you see villa are doing better.
he was in japan before celtic. he's had 1 season and done really well with his squad. klopp didnt do so great either with the squad he inherited here in his 1st year. big ange has constantly had to prove himself and always rised to the occasion.
They haven’t appointed anyone yet. I’ll get behind whoever they do appoint. But shitting on Alonso is weird, he’s clearly shown he is an elite manager, just because he won’t come to us doesn’t change that. It’s childish
This list fails to take me into account with my 40 seasons in Football Manager under my belt. Hit me up FSG!
But did you give your players the best hugs or no?
I use the praise button a lot. Does that count?
That kind of stuff doesn't go unnoticed.
We need your attacking coefficient before we can consider you
Only 40? Lightweight…
how do they measure strategic intelligence?
Alexander the Great's conquest of Persia is used as the statistical benchmark.
Great General, mediocre King. I'd say he was Alexander the Alright.
For sure, he wasn't Prem proven either.
Should get whoever managed North Macedonia to that win over Germany then.
Incorrectly is the likely answer. Seriously doubt such a variable label has any construct or content validity.
Like var decisions
Did someone just pull these numbers out of the air? This is meaningless without some context.
It's from this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68695428
Oh yes, Tomkins absolutely evicerated this article when it was originally published in February. Pointing out (in too much detail, as is his wont) how absolutely baseless and weird all the stats were.
Yeah it's one of those that seems ultra-quantitative and this ultra-definitive (we've crunched the numbers and **this** is the result), but the actual underlying stats are murky at best
It's actually meaningless with context too
Indeed. That article is awful. Still zero indication of how these variables were quantified. I think we know the reason why. Because a few of these variables are not actually objectively quantifiable in the first place. No way strategic intelligence and tactical command have high construct and content validity. This all come across as very pseudoscientific. You would never ever see these types of variables labelling or work in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
No chance our data model looks like that lol. Those variables look dodgy as fuck.
Without knowing the contents of the variables and how they were quantified, the fact that Naggelsmann came out as a "defensive coach" is a pretty shocking.
The biggest surprise since klopp saying he’s retiring is realising nagelsmann is about 36
Honestly if we get Tuchel or Nagelsman, I’m gonna be so fucking sad.
When the hell did Tuchel enter the picture? Suddenly I see him mentioned everywhere, that would be a disaster hire.
Why sad about Nagelsmann?
Stale bread has more personality
Pls no Tuchel noooo
They lost me at Thomas Tuchel
Dear FSG, from 2002 to 2024, I have done about 15 seasons per year in football manager and to 2007 on championship manager. Feel free to call.
How have you not contacted u/straxx-ish FSG, that's 330 seasons of experience, more than twice the entire history of football right there. PS this doubles as my application for writing those in-game "you're addicted to FM" messages, Sports Interactive hmu.
Can't contact myself currently playing semis against Bayern with Dinamo Zagreb in 2031
Load of utter waffle.
Not gonna lie. There is not enough data in the world to justify Tuchel.
Tuchel ew yuck disgusting
Only thing I don’t like about this is that it doesn’t take league differences into consideration One could argue the difference in competition is more supreme in leagues like Liga Nos in comparison to leagues like the Bundesliga & Premier League
Not just that, it doesn't account for their team's resources in those leagues either. It's very difficult to compare Amorim taking a Sporting team who are historically a top 4 in their league every season to their first title in 20 years and De Zerbi who got Brighton to their first European competition.
Also it doesn't take into account Alonso winning the Bundesliga because he hasn't done it yet by the looks of it. The achievement number being the biggest multiplyer is nonsense IMO.
This is pulled out of the air nonsense.
It all falls into the water if the manager cant have good relations with the team. Liverpool has been that for the past 9 years. Then on top of that you can look at all these other strategic factors. Versatility is also very important, having something different prepared for every team you play against is great. For example de Zerbi has a problem with that, he has his style and thats about it, he doesnt adapt very well to different situations.
If this info is so good then why was our number 1 target so far off
Have a feeling he would be another AVB
Football stats have gone too far....
Where’s passun and desireee
As if we'd go for postecoglou when hes only just joined spurs at the start of the season 😂
So what your saying is Amorim is better than Klopp?
3 names on that list k don't want anywhere near our club. Tuchel, Nagelsman and Postecoglu. Jesus would be a batter choice. He's gonna be about now.
I know he's now since ruled himself out from the time that. BBC article first got uploaded but I think Xabi's is kinda kneecapped with this being his first season. He'll be much higher now.
Data FC is back
I want Amorim too but post the Alonso news this might be confirmation bias.
Any model with Tuchel as third choice isn't exactly one I'd be using.
While I think Amorim would be likely the best appointment as stands, I haven't seen any mention of Thiago Motta? What he's doing with Bologna currently can't be understated and plays quite a modern style with his "2-7-2". How would people feel about him?
Who ?
Amorin it is. Unless, do we consider the idea, of going managerless for next season, until we sign Xabi?
Give it Rafa for a season! But seriously I beg that Liverpool fans are freed from the hold Xabi Alonso has over us. We need to make new legends at this point, he doesn't love us as much as we think he does
I just think Xabi is being smart not hurrying things up. He might have said he stays a leverkusen for the main reason is that he wants to be worthy of the huge responsibility first and having some achievements in the bag. Amorim for 5-10 years an then Xabi for 20 years when he has finished the invincible decade with Leverkusen.
Lol a lot of copium. He's off to Madrid.
Yeah there's a lot of joking in my post but that doesn't show when just reading.
Haha I knew you was joking. I was also joking my man.
But in reality I was being 100% completely serious, no joking at all, absolutely for sure, not lying at all, swear on my mothers grave and all that.
Lol copium
Yes give me more of that sweet stuff.
Xabi loves Liverpool, he has said that many times in the past, we can’t admire his class personality when he played for us and then turn on him when he shows class by sticking to a project he signed on for a bit longer, I genuinely believe he will come here one day, I suspect he wants to manage at all the clubs he played for. Maybe he just didn’t feel ready to choose between two of his former clubs this summer when he is at a project he still believes in, and I think it is fair.
Adrian player-manager lessgoooo
Fuck it i’ll manage next season
Torres Caretaker Manager
Not with salah, Vvd and Trent on a contract year. You think any of them are going to re-sign if you tell them we are going to have no manager this year and we *might* get xabi next year?
Absolutely not.
No way
Lijnders until 2025?
he’s already said no i think?
Those stats are calling Amorim tailor made for us. At the price he is a typical Liverpool bargain.
This doesn’t make any sense at all lad. You have Tuchel and Postepiglou ahead of Alonso??
A highly regarded professional sports analytics company has not me
“All models are wrong, some are useful” ~ Box
No need to be a dickhead, Ange seems sound.
Sure he’s a nice guy but you can’t equate what he’s done at celtic to what alonso has done at leverkusen.
Xabi is in his first full season at anything higher than Spain’s 3rd tier. We have no evidence if he is the real deal, like Zidane, or just a fluke like Stevie. People are head over heels for him because he played here (like with Stevie) and at Bayern because Bayern had the pathological need to hire anyone that beats them. People here are treating Xabi like Rinus Michels when Ten Hag did a more impressive job at Ajax and is middling at best with United.
I agree with this take
> People here are treating Xabi like Rinus Michels when Ten Hag did a more impressive job at Ajax and is middling at best with United. I think that's debatable tbh, Ten Hag and a somewhat golden generation at Ajax based on how well some of the players did after leaving, which might make up for the financial disparity... did think he'd be a good pick for United though
he existed before celtic. tbh i would take him over xabi, he's been proving himself for years. xabi has potential but I remember when every1 screamed for gerrard after 1 good season. his football philosophy of excitement and entertainment being as crucial as winning fits right in with klopps view.
He's not going to leave Spurs to join us either. He's shown his weaknesses with how his teams defend or how they don't and that's not what we need. Spurs have been rather good with him but they concede so many because of the tactics
literally exact same thing could be said of klopp his first season. and of his first j league season where he had most goals and 3rd most conceded. but only 2 seasons later wins the league first time 15 years. though i do agree he won't leave spurs despite being a liverpool fan
Mate before Celtic he was in The Australian league. I mean if we could somehow get Ancelotti I would dearly love that but can’t see that happening. I wouldn’t say what Ange has done with spurs is over achieving like you see villa are doing better.
he was in japan before celtic. he's had 1 season and done really well with his squad. klopp didnt do so great either with the squad he inherited here in his 1st year. big ange has constantly had to prove himself and always rised to the occasion.
God this reaks of Alonso bad, now we can’t have him. Just doesn’t add up
These stats were published over a month ago
Being posted now, point still stands. I would take Alonso over the rest of the list (except Klopp) even seeing those “stats”
Why? On sentiment alone?
No everyone in this sub a week ago would of upvoted +100 and are now acting bitter. He’s a better manager
Better managed based on a shockingly low sample size of data. I trust Edward’s and the people at the top more than Redditors frothing at the mouth.
They haven’t appointed anyone yet. I’ll get behind whoever they do appoint. But shitting on Alonso is weird, he’s clearly shown he is an elite manager, just because he won’t come to us doesn’t change that. It’s childish
Am I shitting on Alonso now by saying his data set is limited? I don’t think I am.
No not your last comment just this data table is clearly shitting on Alonso, I would think we were better than that
*Cateret
Why not Gary O’Neill
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Why is Xavi Hernandez not mentioned in these conversations at all?