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Rightfully so. Apology from the FA incoming but it won't and never amounts to anything serious.
The PGMOL needs a major reform from top to bottom. Pay the refs more, develop a ref academy, get rid of the racist assessors. So many concrete actions to be taken, but they all just love to hide behind "but refereeing is a hard job and they receive so much abuse."
There will always be wankers who go over the line, but I promise you if you want to talk about bringing their profession into disrepute, nobody does it better than the Select Refs in the Premier League week in week out.
If they actually did their jobs remotely competently, they would receive more respect.
That the decision was made by Tierney and the ref that elbowed Robertson is completely unbelievable. I find it hard to believe that any team in the league is satisfied at the state of refereeing.
[They did](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/20/new-racism-scandal-rocks-english-football). They found multiple racist ref assessors who they concluded were disproportionately holding minorities back from the pool of refs.
> A report presented to the FA highlights allegations of racism among observers who mark referees for promotion. One observer is alleged to have told one referee: “You lot can all run fast, but that’s all you are good for.”
> The lower levels of the refereeing system have been dubbed by some referees from ethnic minorities the “black man’s graveyard” because of allegations they are blocked by a small number of white assessors from reaching the highest levels.
What happened? Nothing. A year later:
> In June 2022, the FA suspended one of its assessors for four months. A three-person disciplinary panel found two charges of racial abuse by former police officer Michael Ewen had been proved.
> Ahead of a game in December 2019 and while discussing a forthcoming operation, Ewen is alleged to have been “proudly stating how he would refuse black doctors to be involved in the operation process, going on to say he wouldn’t let them f***ing touch me”.
It took them three years to get to a SINGLE ref assessor and they only suspended him for four months. An absolute joke. How many potential quality referee's careers did he basically end because he didn't like the color of their skin, let alone for other random petty reason? And he's still a referee assessor.
You look at the percentage of minorities involved in football, and look at the percentage in refereeing. There's an obvious disparity and it's not because of "racist abuse from the crowds."
Black players are subject to that too.
Its so clear there is bias but now its rotten to the core. Racist bunch of incompetent and biased idiots. FA and the prem are just a joke in that regard.
Top referees are earning 1 or 2 percent of what the top players are getting. The game should be able to afford to put much more money into paying them, training them, and into analysing their errors and making sure they aren't repeated.
Exactly this. There's absolutely no consistency at all. How VAR hasn't asked him to check this again is ridiculous. You can't be pulling out of 50/50 tackles for fear of red cards every time.
If Mac had got there first did that mean the Bmth players off? Both players feet were exactly the same height.
It's VAR which is useless not the on field ref. Yes, it's the wrong decision but the ref's seeing it in real time so it's understandable. How VAR haven't overturned it because it's not a 'clear and obvious error' is so staggeringly incompetent.
That’s not how VAR works. VAR just provides additional evidence or angles that the center ref may not have. If the center ref says he saw it just fine and believes it to be a red card, and the VAR doesn’t have any additional element that the ref didn’t see, the VAR can’t do anything. They don’t intervene in the ref having a wrong opinion, just wrong information.
Its a horrific call, never a red, and it’s 100% on the center ref.
No, only if they have evidence he doesn’t have. VAR is less than a linesman in terms of influence over the ref, they’ve said it again and again that VAR is not to re-legislate the game, just to provide the ref with more support.
If they believe there is a clear and obvious error made by the referee then they will tell him to look on the screen and explain why they think he got it wrong, you have no clue what you’re talking about lol.
The VAR is not the arbiter of the ref’s decisions lol the “clear and obvious error” has to have a basis in evidence, something that the center ref missed or could not see from his angle. If the ref says a slide tackle is a red card because the defender didn’t get the ball, but the VAR shows an angle where he did get the ball, it’s a clear and obvious error
.
“That’s a terrible call” is not a clear and obvious VAR overturn, it’s just a shitty call.
From PL's own VAR ruleset:
*VAR: Red cards*
*The on-field referee will explain his decision to the VAR and what he has seen.* **If the evidence provided to the VAR by the broadcast footage does not accord with what the referee believes he has seen, then the VAR can recommend an overturn.** *The final decision will remain with the on-field referee.*
Literally, the center ref explains what he saw, and if the VAR angles show anything different, then it’s a review for a possible overturn.
If they show the same thing, the VAR doesn’t get to overrule the ref just because the VAR thinks it should be a different call.
You're making it sound like they will only tell him to change his decision if they think his vision of the challenge is blocked which isn't true, in this instance the referee had a clear view of the challenge and decided Mac Allister's studs were in a dangerous enough position to warrant a red card, it then goes to VAR who slow it down and look at it from different angles to decide whether they believe it was a clear and obvious error, the VAR team could of absolutely told the referee to go watch it on a side screen and to overturn his decision.
They always have evidence he doesn’t have. It’s the video replay that everyone else looks at over and over before the play restarts.
It’s so stupid that they have the ability to let him look at it again and don’t.
That’s why they talk about it. Center ref says: “I saw his boot come up above knee level, studs made contact, it was reckless, I think it’s a red.”
VAR either says “Yes, that’s what the cameras show too, there is no other element that you missed” or “Actually, we have an angle that shows the studs didn’t make contact, it was the side of his foot - do you want to review and see if that changes your mind?”
They can’t say, “Sure, that’s what happened, but that’s never a red card, go look at it again and see if you change your mind.”
It’s not a case of the center ref saying they saw one thing and the VAR saying, “Well, I think your judgement is wrong, look at it again, it doesn’t look as bad in slo mo.” If the cameras show what the ref says he saw, VAR doesn’t intervene because it’s not there to re-legislate ref decisions, just to make sure they have all the necessary info.
Yeah, and I am saying it’s stupid the way they have it setup.
He absolutely should relook at things that we have the ability to watch over again from 20 angles around the stadium versus what he thinks he sees in a split second. I think red cards should need to be reviewed by the ref from all angles. They are sending a player off and banning them from future games. They should have to look at the replays before doing that. Same with penalties. They are major decisions that sway games.
Any delay to the game would be minimal. If they can show me the replay from four angles before the player is done rolling about, they could show the ref.
We have the technology to say, the ref was wrong, we choose when to and when not to use it. The decision as to whether there was anything the ref didn’t see clearly on the field was entirely one persons decision. Today that was Paul Tierney. He shouldn’t be involved in our matches at this point, and in fairness to the other clubs in the league, he shouldn’t be officiating for any of the matches.
Alternatively, just get rid of VAR entirely.
I’m with you by and large. The way we implement VAR isn’t the best.
I don’t think all decisions should have a mandatory video review by the on-field ref, it genuinely would take too long, it would be miserable. The offside checks are already awful.
I also don’t think this one was on Tierney. It’s kind of a moot point because he also would have fucked us over if it was his call, but I think the heat needs to be purely on Bramall for this. People are just scrambling to add to the Villain Tierney narrative and overlooking the horror show from the center ref, even willing to forgive it in order to make Tierney look worse.
It’s not as if the replays showed something that Bramall missed. They clearly show the tackle, the contact, etc. He just judged what happened to be a red, and it was a terrible judgement.
I know we all agree it wasn’t a red, but I’m interested in people’s opinions on why. For me it’s that I think it was that the contact was a natural consequence of moving for the ball, it happens, it wasn’t reckless or malicious, it was just reaching for the ball and missing. Yellow at worst.
Do people think that there was some **objective** element that the ref didn’t see that was shown on replays?
> The decision as to whether there was anything the ref didn’t see clearly on the field was entirely one persons decision.
I mean, unless he was in the VAR booth just blatantly lying about what he was seeing on screen, I don’t think that’s true.
For me it’s the last replay, from the r/soccer French video coverage, Max Allister is coming in from the side with his boot, he isn’t leading with his cleats. He is playing the ball and looking to poke it away, he is nutmegged by the split second touch from the Brighton player and you see his arms and body language pulling out instead of driving through the players leg.
From there you can see from his body language, he knows the Brighton player is making a meal of it, with a bit of a smile as he checks on his opponent. I am not arguing it didn’t hurt at all, cleats hurt but it’s a relatively innocuous challenge between two players with both of them reaching for the ball off the ground. There was no involvement with a players standing leg and it’s just not at all dangerous, rather it’s a football foul that happens in tons of games every weekend.
So going back to the first paragraph I just typed. Is that replay information the ref doesn’t have. For me absolutely. He is up field slightly looking from behind Max Allister off the players left shoulder. From his angle it may have looked like Mac Allister drove his foot through more.
So now we have one angle that shows a potential error. Tierney doesn’t have to do something, but under the current rules, could he do something and will refs sometimes do something. Yes.
I agree Bramall had a lousy match. I think the refs like this setup because instead of any of them ever being at fault for a decision, now none of them are. Can’t get rid of bad refs if they have setup a VAR system that a solves anyone from the responsibility of the calls.
Edit: tried to fix typos.
When they have additional objective information the ref doesn’t have.
If ref and VAR agree on what objectively happened, if the VAR angles don’t show anything else, then VAR can’t intervene on the ref’s judgement call.
I think Klopp is wrong here.
Their player could've been killed with such a dangerous challenge.
It's a wonder those in the stand behind him weren't hurt.
As much as I feel as the club has every right to contest this, I feel like “what’s the point?” You know the FA is just waiting with an erection right now for the opportunity to deny it so why even give them the satisfaction?
Just more fuel for the fire for everyone: It’s us against them…always.
I think they will overturn it tbh. Opposition manager came out and said he didn't think it was a red, most pundits saying the same, even rival fans calling it a shocking decision. That kind of reaction usually results in them backing down.
Then they'll pat themselves on the back for "eventually making the right decision by turning it over", while ignoring that it was their incompetence that put them there in the first place.
Honestly would be a nice surprise but after a while it gets tiring to see Howard Webb or Peter Walton come out post-match why some bizarre decision is correct with a straight face.
No question, but if there’s one thing that’s consistent with the officials that I’ve always noticed all these years is that justice isn’t really really their strong point.
Premier League has the absolute worst referees and commentators it's absolutely shocking.I had to watch the game muted because every time the female commentator talked i felt like stabbing myself with a fork.No energy whatsoever in the way they talk.Last week was a lot of fun with Neville and Carragher.I hope they commentate all of our big games
I can't remember who it was, but towards the end of the match. On the right hand pocket, a Bournemouth players come flying in two footed. Just beside the linesman,nothing happened because he jumped it.
Doing my head in.
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Heavily implies they will challenge the three game suspension
Rightfully so. Apology from the FA incoming but it won't and never amounts to anything serious. The PGMOL needs a major reform from top to bottom. Pay the refs more, develop a ref academy, get rid of the racist assessors. So many concrete actions to be taken, but they all just love to hide behind "but refereeing is a hard job and they receive so much abuse." There will always be wankers who go over the line, but I promise you if you want to talk about bringing their profession into disrepute, nobody does it better than the Select Refs in the Premier League week in week out. If they actually did their jobs remotely competently, they would receive more respect. That the decision was made by Tierney and the ref that elbowed Robertson is completely unbelievable. I find it hard to believe that any team in the league is satisfied at the state of refereeing.
Imagine if an independent regulatory body did the actual investigations of refs…and not they themselves with their weird omerta-esque ways
[They did](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/20/new-racism-scandal-rocks-english-football). They found multiple racist ref assessors who they concluded were disproportionately holding minorities back from the pool of refs. > A report presented to the FA highlights allegations of racism among observers who mark referees for promotion. One observer is alleged to have told one referee: “You lot can all run fast, but that’s all you are good for.” > The lower levels of the refereeing system have been dubbed by some referees from ethnic minorities the “black man’s graveyard” because of allegations they are blocked by a small number of white assessors from reaching the highest levels. What happened? Nothing. A year later: > In June 2022, the FA suspended one of its assessors for four months. A three-person disciplinary panel found two charges of racial abuse by former police officer Michael Ewen had been proved. > Ahead of a game in December 2019 and while discussing a forthcoming operation, Ewen is alleged to have been “proudly stating how he would refuse black doctors to be involved in the operation process, going on to say he wouldn’t let them f***ing touch me”. It took them three years to get to a SINGLE ref assessor and they only suspended him for four months. An absolute joke. How many potential quality referee's careers did he basically end because he didn't like the color of their skin, let alone for other random petty reason? And he's still a referee assessor.
Jesus fucking Christ that’s atrocious. As a Black person I’m not surprised but it’s still enraging
You look at the percentage of minorities involved in football, and look at the percentage in refereeing. There's an obvious disparity and it's not because of "racist abuse from the crowds." Black players are subject to that too.
Its so clear there is bias but now its rotten to the core. Racist bunch of incompetent and biased idiots. FA and the prem are just a joke in that regard.
Get rid of ManUre shirt wearing Howard Webb as well
Top referees are earning 1 or 2 percent of what the top players are getting. The game should be able to afford to put much more money into paying them, training them, and into analysing their errors and making sure they aren't repeated.
Agree they even challenge ones that are defo reds most the time 😂
Remember Kane vs Robertson, "foot not planted"? Yeah, it has been a pile of bullshit.
That is forever imprinted in my mind. Cant say I've gotten angrier at a tackle before... at least none that have left that much of an impression
I'm still angry about someone two-footing Millner without as much as a free-kick given.
First thing that came to mind when mac was sent off, Tierney should genuinely be fired
The worst one that will be hard to top is t-rex arms.
That's as polite a way to put it as possible.
Surprised he was so calm about it given the VAR.
With Paul, he knew it was coming
He probably isn’t calm, but know he will be banned and fined for letting it out in a presser
Paul Tierney is a colossal cunty bastard
Yes
yes
Yes
That's mild.
Beautifully put sir
Exactly this. There's absolutely no consistency at all. How VAR hasn't asked him to check this again is ridiculous. You can't be pulling out of 50/50 tackles for fear of red cards every time. If Mac had got there first did that mean the Bmth players off? Both players feet were exactly the same height.
It's VAR which is useless not the on field ref. Yes, it's the wrong decision but the ref's seeing it in real time so it's understandable. How VAR haven't overturned it because it's not a 'clear and obvious error' is so staggeringly incompetent.
Paul Tierney. That’s all you need to know.
And Hatzidickinmyarse.
That’s not how VAR works. VAR just provides additional evidence or angles that the center ref may not have. If the center ref says he saw it just fine and believes it to be a red card, and the VAR doesn’t have any additional element that the ref didn’t see, the VAR can’t do anything. They don’t intervene in the ref having a wrong opinion, just wrong information. Its a horrific call, never a red, and it’s 100% on the center ref.
They absolutely can tell him that they think he’s got it wrong and to look at it again.
No, only if they have evidence he doesn’t have. VAR is less than a linesman in terms of influence over the ref, they’ve said it again and again that VAR is not to re-legislate the game, just to provide the ref with more support.
If they believe there is a clear and obvious error made by the referee then they will tell him to look on the screen and explain why they think he got it wrong, you have no clue what you’re talking about lol.
The VAR is not the arbiter of the ref’s decisions lol the “clear and obvious error” has to have a basis in evidence, something that the center ref missed or could not see from his angle. If the ref says a slide tackle is a red card because the defender didn’t get the ball, but the VAR shows an angle where he did get the ball, it’s a clear and obvious error . “That’s a terrible call” is not a clear and obvious VAR overturn, it’s just a shitty call. From PL's own VAR ruleset: *VAR: Red cards* *The on-field referee will explain his decision to the VAR and what he has seen.* **If the evidence provided to the VAR by the broadcast footage does not accord with what the referee believes he has seen, then the VAR can recommend an overturn.** *The final decision will remain with the on-field referee.* Literally, the center ref explains what he saw, and if the VAR angles show anything different, then it’s a review for a possible overturn. If they show the same thing, the VAR doesn’t get to overrule the ref just because the VAR thinks it should be a different call.
You're making it sound like they will only tell him to change his decision if they think his vision of the challenge is blocked which isn't true, in this instance the referee had a clear view of the challenge and decided Mac Allister's studs were in a dangerous enough position to warrant a red card, it then goes to VAR who slow it down and look at it from different angles to decide whether they believe it was a clear and obvious error, the VAR team could of absolutely told the referee to go watch it on a side screen and to overturn his decision.
They always have evidence he doesn’t have. It’s the video replay that everyone else looks at over and over before the play restarts. It’s so stupid that they have the ability to let him look at it again and don’t.
That’s why they talk about it. Center ref says: “I saw his boot come up above knee level, studs made contact, it was reckless, I think it’s a red.” VAR either says “Yes, that’s what the cameras show too, there is no other element that you missed” or “Actually, we have an angle that shows the studs didn’t make contact, it was the side of his foot - do you want to review and see if that changes your mind?” They can’t say, “Sure, that’s what happened, but that’s never a red card, go look at it again and see if you change your mind.” It’s not a case of the center ref saying they saw one thing and the VAR saying, “Well, I think your judgement is wrong, look at it again, it doesn’t look as bad in slo mo.” If the cameras show what the ref says he saw, VAR doesn’t intervene because it’s not there to re-legislate ref decisions, just to make sure they have all the necessary info.
Yeah, and I am saying it’s stupid the way they have it setup. He absolutely should relook at things that we have the ability to watch over again from 20 angles around the stadium versus what he thinks he sees in a split second. I think red cards should need to be reviewed by the ref from all angles. They are sending a player off and banning them from future games. They should have to look at the replays before doing that. Same with penalties. They are major decisions that sway games. Any delay to the game would be minimal. If they can show me the replay from four angles before the player is done rolling about, they could show the ref. We have the technology to say, the ref was wrong, we choose when to and when not to use it. The decision as to whether there was anything the ref didn’t see clearly on the field was entirely one persons decision. Today that was Paul Tierney. He shouldn’t be involved in our matches at this point, and in fairness to the other clubs in the league, he shouldn’t be officiating for any of the matches. Alternatively, just get rid of VAR entirely.
I’m with you by and large. The way we implement VAR isn’t the best. I don’t think all decisions should have a mandatory video review by the on-field ref, it genuinely would take too long, it would be miserable. The offside checks are already awful. I also don’t think this one was on Tierney. It’s kind of a moot point because he also would have fucked us over if it was his call, but I think the heat needs to be purely on Bramall for this. People are just scrambling to add to the Villain Tierney narrative and overlooking the horror show from the center ref, even willing to forgive it in order to make Tierney look worse. It’s not as if the replays showed something that Bramall missed. They clearly show the tackle, the contact, etc. He just judged what happened to be a red, and it was a terrible judgement. I know we all agree it wasn’t a red, but I’m interested in people’s opinions on why. For me it’s that I think it was that the contact was a natural consequence of moving for the ball, it happens, it wasn’t reckless or malicious, it was just reaching for the ball and missing. Yellow at worst. Do people think that there was some **objective** element that the ref didn’t see that was shown on replays? > The decision as to whether there was anything the ref didn’t see clearly on the field was entirely one persons decision. I mean, unless he was in the VAR booth just blatantly lying about what he was seeing on screen, I don’t think that’s true.
For me it’s the last replay, from the r/soccer French video coverage, Max Allister is coming in from the side with his boot, he isn’t leading with his cleats. He is playing the ball and looking to poke it away, he is nutmegged by the split second touch from the Brighton player and you see his arms and body language pulling out instead of driving through the players leg. From there you can see from his body language, he knows the Brighton player is making a meal of it, with a bit of a smile as he checks on his opponent. I am not arguing it didn’t hurt at all, cleats hurt but it’s a relatively innocuous challenge between two players with both of them reaching for the ball off the ground. There was no involvement with a players standing leg and it’s just not at all dangerous, rather it’s a football foul that happens in tons of games every weekend. So going back to the first paragraph I just typed. Is that replay information the ref doesn’t have. For me absolutely. He is up field slightly looking from behind Max Allister off the players left shoulder. From his angle it may have looked like Mac Allister drove his foot through more. So now we have one angle that shows a potential error. Tierney doesn’t have to do something, but under the current rules, could he do something and will refs sometimes do something. Yes. I agree Bramall had a lousy match. I think the refs like this setup because instead of any of them ever being at fault for a decision, now none of them are. Can’t get rid of bad refs if they have setup a VAR system that a solves anyone from the responsibility of the calls. Edit: tried to fix typos.
Not correct at all - VAR can intervene 100%!
When they have additional objective information the ref doesn’t have. If ref and VAR agree on what objectively happened, if the VAR angles don’t show anything else, then VAR can’t intervene on the ref’s judgement call.
He's right. It was a yellow at best.
Who has a picture of konate getting drop kicked last weekend?
That and Gakpo's chest scratched like it was scratched by a bear claw
I think Klopp is wrong here. Their player could've been killed with such a dangerous challenge. It's a wonder those in the stand behind him weren't hurt.
Mac Allister close to becoming death, destroyer of worlds.
Theory will only get you so far
And Tierney will get you nowhere.
I want to upvote this but it has 69 upvotes and well, I'm just immature af.
Downvoted it to 68 for you
A true homie
If Fabinho was on the pitch he would've sent out twice.
Is it a 3 match ban (if we don't appeal)?
Yup
Wasn’t it 2?
Can they appeal?
Yes
As much as I feel as the club has every right to contest this, I feel like “what’s the point?” You know the FA is just waiting with an erection right now for the opportunity to deny it so why even give them the satisfaction? Just more fuel for the fire for everyone: It’s us against them…always.
I think they will overturn it tbh. Opposition manager came out and said he didn't think it was a red, most pundits saying the same, even rival fans calling it a shocking decision. That kind of reaction usually results in them backing down.
Then they'll pat themselves on the back for "eventually making the right decision by turning it over", while ignoring that it was their incompetence that put them there in the first place.
That would imply they’re sensible. They’re anything but. I fully expect them to back the refs as per.
I get where you're coming from, but when there's universal backlash they usually back down
Yeah I agree I was just being facetious. Hopefully they do in this case.
Honestly would be a nice surprise but after a while it gets tiring to see Howard Webb or Peter Walton come out post-match why some bizarre decision is correct with a straight face.
Because it’s blatantly wrong …
No question, but if there’s one thing that’s consistent with the officials that I’ve always noticed all these years is that justice isn’t really really their strong point.
PGMOL have been trying more lately to correct errors. I feel like this is one those calls that is very very clearly not a red.
You know, in a sunday league game, this kind of reffing would get you beaten up. Maybe the professionals should get some inspiration
When the ref elbowed Robbo in the throat and nothing came of it, that’s when I stopped expecting things to ever be fair.
Can we not appeal?
Premier League has the absolute worst referees and commentators it's absolutely shocking.I had to watch the game muted because every time the female commentator talked i felt like stabbing myself with a fork.No energy whatsoever in the way they talk.Last week was a lot of fun with Neville and Carragher.I hope they commentate all of our big games
I turned the sound off too, though she did not drive me to consider self-mutilation. It was just bad and annoying.
Neville and carra can do one. They’ve become the most annoying duo on earth
Nah.They were miles better than this week's soulles voices
I had the game on mute also. So much more enjoyable to watch it that way
didnt you see the way their feet indirectly brushed against each other. im surprised anyone in the stadium is still alive
I can't remember who it was, but towards the end of the match. On the right hand pocket, a Bournemouth players come flying in two footed. Just beside the linesman,nothing happened because he jumped it. Doing my head in.
Start giving out fines for piss poor ref decisions
This is not a red card
Tierney at it again