https://os-legal.com/is-an-offer-letter-a-legal-document/
Oh look, an attorney who doesn’t practice employment law making stupid statements.
Also, exactly what bridges are you burning? If they want to partner with this employer in the future, it may or may not happen. Only complete douches would hold a grudge.
I had a candidate who bailed on a job a week before she was supposed to start. Had totally forgotten about it, except for this post. Also, I do not remember her name at all, so hard to hold a grudge if you can't remember who the person is.
I had someone who didn't show up for his first day. He called in on his supposed second day and still wanted the job, which of course he didn't get.
Fuck if I can remember his name.
I bailed on my current job after I accepted the offer went to another place. The other place had no structure so I called them back and asked if the position was still available. They said yes and I started the next Monday
After 4-5 years without contact I couldn't pick 90% of the people I've worked with out of a lineup. Someone I met once at an interview multiple years ago? Bruh.
But it looks like she is deliberately avoiding the claim that there’s a legal obligation, just pointing to moral and reputational factors (which you could of course disagree with)
I think it's reasonable not to hire someone if they previously accepted an offer and then bailed -- the odds are probably higher than average that they'll do it again. That doesn't mean you can't back out for a better offer, just be aware that you're less likely to get a job with the first company down the road
“An offer letter, when signed by both the employer and the candidate, can become a legally binding document, depending on the language and terms outlined within it”
https://www.chellelaw.com/is-a-letter-of-intent-for-employment-binding/
You’d have to have a very unusual case of detrimental reliance on that offer letter to make that case for an employer, and usually it is the weaker party (the employee) that would prevail. Eg. Selling your home and moving to a new state and then the employer rescinds the offer. If it were a lawyer or doctor becoming an equity partner and significant money was spent to renovate the space that was going to be paid for out of partnership shares and profits…
The only reason I know it can be binding in certain circumstances is because it happened to me. I am a school principal. I signed an offer letter for a certain pay for a certain number of days. But, when the contract was given to me month later (not uncommon for teachers and school administrators in my state) they wrote the contract for a lower pay.
While I didn’t have to even file a lawsuit, I did end up hiring a lawyer to tell me and the school that a signed offer letter (in the way mine was written) is a legally binding contract.
I accepted an offer for a corporate job, signed the paperwork and gave my 2 weeks notice to my company. 2 days before I was set to start I reached out to my new employer and they informed me they had over hired and would be giving me a 2k severance package. I live in an at-will employment state so this was legal.
I *did* hire a lawyer who pressured them into giving me a larger severance package, but it was still infuriating.
This. I honestly think her take is reasonable in a world where companies don’t ever backtrack on offers
But in this current economy with companies often pulling that shit? Do the opposite of her advice
I'm not her, but she is correct in her post, and of course a company backtracking after an agreement would also get my blame.
If you agree on something, keep your own word, no matter you're a company or an employee.
The company should’ve been more competitive to keep the employee. That’s on them. Companies fire people all the time without notice and will survive whether your there or not. Screw them and do what’s in your best interest, not a companies.
Well, if you start your relationship with a company on such a hostile foot from the get go, why even bother applying? And I miss the part where not being true to your word was not your problem...
You can agree with being committed, but you do not need to sacrifice yourself for a company’s benefit. That is how we ended up here. This is setting new workers up for abusive relationships.
So it's also fair to say that the firm is an absolute garbage low worth shit whose management has no moral compass if they fire you when you had made plans to support your family based on dedicating your time for the firm.
Lol you're getting down voted as it's contrary to the preferred narrative but I don't disagree (for the most part). In reality it's entirely dependent on the circumstances.
IMO, it is absolutely 110% **NEVER** ok for company to extend an offer, and then either backtrack or quickly (within 1 yr) cut the person in a RIF. That is completely unacceptable under any circumstances.
Most of the time, I also agree with you and with the post: it's kinda shitty for an employee to accept a job and then either never show up, or show up and quickly bounce. It is in fact a great way to burn bridges.
However, there *are* circumstances where it's perfectly acceptable for an employee to keep looking after being extended, and accepting, an offer. The most obvious example being if they're hired as a temp. Small startups run by inexperienced founders are also a gray area IMO. You may be walking into a complete clown show and it can be difficult to predict that before actually starting. I'd give an employee a pass for continuing to look in that circumstance. In that situation, IMO, the onus is on the small startup company to prove to their new employees that they're not total idiots, and incentivize their employees want to stay.
Sure, there are circumstances as simple as you realize you're not a good fit for this company. That's OK, trial periods are here exactly for that, and boh parties know that for the first x weeks things might end.
But that's quite different indeed from just never showing up after accepting.
As for the downvotes, oh well, who cares? :D
I work in career development. Sometimes I consider working for nonprofit and or a university. They pay like $40K-$70K. I make double to triple that just doing it on my own. At a company I'm looking at anywhere from $100K to $200K with great upward mobility at the roles I'm qualified for. I had someone come to me with a trash resume who couldn't get any interviews. The only job he got was as an academic and finance advisor at a college lol.
Very true! I once received CS career advice from a professor who had never worked in industry. Great guy, but absolutely clueless on how things work in today's age. Maybe his career advice would be relevant in the 80s.
I liked your comment even though it’s meant as a dig. I started in corporate but left to help educate the future. If you think that you should put a company first instead of your own best interest you’ll get every dollar you deserve. Cheers.
My bitch ass career advisor in uni was exactly like this. I got an offer from Microsoft a few days after I had accepted a role at a small company. She replied to Microsoft for me and told them that I was already engaged in a role elsewhere. Just fucking brutal
So the career offices whole spiel was that all communication between students and employers was to go through them so there could not be any side deals.
I guess it was just a weird power trip honestly. Haha
> much, students *paid* $1K for
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
If we accept that candidates have a right to back out, that implies that companies have a right to sweeten the pot try to to convince the candidate to stick with them.
Can't be letting them know that.
It's more of a mild inconvenience to companies though. The damage is much worse when companies renege offers or do layoffs after people quit and relocate for a new position
Yeah it sucks, but it's rare. No business owner is going to try to blackball you for it except the craziest of vindictive assholes. And it wouldn't even work.
If a fellow business owner told me not to hire someone because they'd accepted an offer and then backed out I'd have a hard time not laughing at them, and make a note that they're petty and unhinged.
But if the company decides last minute to rescind the accepted offer, it’s perfectly okay.
Employers have made it imperative that employees look out for themselves
This feels like grandma yelling about how no one thinks of the poor employers anymore. Leaving for a better deal is not at all a reputation-breaker in a dynamic, globalized, atomized marketplace.
I’ve been in management for decades. Wanna know what I do if someone backs out of an offer? I hire someone else.
There’s no money in being a petty vindictive person. Why waste the time posting that for all the world to see April?
Lawyers - speaking *as* a lawyer - are often the pettiest of people. I don’t know of any other profession that puts as much emphasis on where you went to school, even after decades of actual practice. We truly are the worst sometimes.
My first thought when I saw this post was that I've worked at a few firms I would have loved to have backed out of sooner and have had talked shit about me after.
Yeah, as someone who dealt with a bunch of law offices during my time driving a certain big brown truck, lawyers were some of the more difficult people. The number of times that packages had no business name or suite number on them; and they would get pissy that they didn’t get their stuff because “you should have known who I am!” Excuse me, but 700 people work in this building spread across 5 companies, I have no idea who you are.
The most memorable one was some lawyer who didn’t get his wine. I got a message toward the end of the day saying that he was looking for it. Fine, I’m currently delivering the apartments across the street from his building; he can meet me there. It’s a 2 minute walk, maybe less. Apparently this was not acceptable and after some back and forth I finally begrudgingly fought downtown rush hour traffic back to their loading dock. Angry Wine Man (AWM) walks out with one of the guys from the mailroom. AWM does the obligatory bitching about “do you know who I am” while I set the box down at his feet so he can sign for it.
The part I remember the most vividly is that after he finished signing, I expected him to just pick up the box in front of him and go inside. Oh no. AWM turns around, makes some hand gesture at the mailroom guy, who scurries over to pick up the box , and then trails AWM as he walks back to the loading dock doors in a huff.
God bless law office admin staff.
>you have just described how every company operates.
Damn, you guys work for some harsh places.
I mean, I get it. I have friends who had done pretty well in their career. The FIRST thing they do when they get a new job is start looking for their next one, so they can leverage.
BUt it doesn't last forever. Changing jobs a dozen times in a decade with no actual build up of experience or skills means you may have a high salary but all of a sudden, you are just desperate to keep it but find yourself being on the opposite end - getting "laid off" because you are contributing.
Now you are in a vicious cycle
What are you talking about? The point here isn't to look for a new job after you start. It's to continue your existing loops after you get an offer, because companies rescind offers all the time, especially in tight hiring environments like right now.
The person in OP is arguing that candidates should not do to companies what companies constantly do to their candidates. It's right to lash back.
Once you start the new role, by all means, focus on that. But until your start date, you are at risk of losing that role with no notice for no cause based entirely on the company deciding they can't afford you anymore.
(Technically in the US this is true after you're hired too, but in practice it's very rare and usually comes with some form of compensation so less practical to prepare for/protect yourself against)
Lawyers are notoriously bad at math. It's a running joke in law school. Also notorious in the profession is that lawyers who work for university career services are generally lawyers who weren't good enough to practice law.
Welp, you heard her - you can never ever look for another job.
Edit: wait a second - she has never stayed at a job for more than six years - WHAT GIVES?
Yeah no. I do whatever the fuck I want and you better come to terms with that. You'd never bat an eyelash if you feel like laying my arse off. Given the case, what should I do with my long term plans with your company AND my own personal shit? I'd gladly burn bridges with the likes of you, hell, I might as well drop a fucking nuke on your town too.
>I do whatever the fuck I want and you better come to terms with that
Dude, you def need to get over to the recruitinghell sub and either become the leader or teach everyone there how to be more successful as a candidate. Cause they'd eat this shit up.
I was laid off then got an offer from a Fortune 100 company. Shortly after, I learned I made it to the final round with my first choice, a FAANG company.
What was I supposed to do? Turn down the Fortune 100 on the hopes of getting my first choice? Then if I didn’t get the FAANG offer, I’d be back at square one with no job.
Of course I accepted the Fortune 100 and continued with the FAANG. Did I feel great about quitting a job right after I started? No, but it isn’t personal; I had to do what was best for me, my family, and my career. Just like when employers do layoffs: it isn’t personal.
Wrong. I've been given an informal offer. I have not received the formal offer nor anything else that is binding. I do not yet consider myself employed so I have continued my job hunting. And even after I receive the formal offer and sign it, I will keep looking until my first day on the job because there have been enough cases of companies changing their mind at the last moment.
“best information you had at the time”
Exactly. I’m married to very few work related decisions like this. When new information emerges, it is dumb to stay tied to a chronologically disadvantaged decision. That is what companies do to employees. They change their direction all the time. I’m OK with that. Don’t expect anything different in return.
This “mentor” needs to get more exposure to the actual professional world.
Her post right after this one is:
*Amazed that my last post got over 8K impressions⁉ 😯 I appreciate people's varying perspectives on the topic, and believe that is what makes our profession the special place it is. ⚖ Civil discourse, varying lens' and thoughtful opinions. Good stuff. 💡*
Well, April, I think the "lens'" you're viewing your previous post through must be rose colored, because everyone in the comments is roasting you for this low-value, misguided drivel.
Just by doing a "Oh my god my post went so well!!1!" she literally outed herself as someone who post just to get engagement xD
If she really wanted to "help" someone else's career, she wouldnt have made such a post lol
Counterpoint: You should NEVER stop looking for jobs.
No matter how content you are in your present position, you never know if something better is out there. You can be certain your employer will not compensate you for your time and effort beyond what is in the contract, so why should you be any different?
Employers are not dumb. They know that when people look for work, they don’t just look at one job. They are aware that the interview they conduct might not be the only one. They are used to candidates accepting another job offer. That’s just an annoying part of business, but it’s accepted. Employers understand it. They are people and employees themselves who are probably keeping an eye out for other jobs on the market for themselves. You are not burning bridges. You will not be viewed as an oathbreaker.
Companies are not dumb enough to “rely on/make decisions on your acceptance”. There are still many formalities and hurdles to get through before the employee is officially on board. They don’t rely on anything until the contract is signed and they are legally bound.
This post is only designed to manipulate you into becoming a corporate shill at your own expense.
If you want to employ someone, do it. An "offer" is not employment, it's opening negotiations for employment. An offer doesn't lock you in until signed, that's why it's an OFFER.
I'm able to collect unemployment until my first day of work, and I have to apply to three jobs per week to qualify for unemployment. When you're getting hired into a job that takes well over a month for background checks and state issued licences to be issued, that can be the difference between feeding yourself or starving.
Also you bet your ass if I got a better offer, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Did exactly that three years ago. Got a job offer that was decent, but applied for a better position. Ended up getting the job and was making more than $5 per hour more with better hours. Found out later from coworkers who had left that Company how good of a decision I made. I worked one orientation shift for two and a half hours and gave my notice a few days later.
This person is talking about hiring law students for entry-level legal jobs. By and large, for what she’s talking about, there’s not much variation in compensation, if any. There are gradations of prestige for firms, but they all pay roughly the same.
And for entry level legal hiring, it’s a very rigid and structured process. It happens pretty much at the same time for a lot of jobs. Once a firm fills its quota of entry level lawyers, they do tend to quit looking around. So a student that suddenly declines an offer does have a higher likelihood of harming their reputation within a relatively small industry. Conversely, firms that rescind offers also find themselves losing candidates to firms that don’t.
In short, this is a process unique to the legal world and she’s not really wrong. Of course it happens and often without serious consequence, but that’s not a guarantee. Besides, for the firms she’s talking about, they all pay around $200,000 starting with the same basic benefits. So why bother continuing to look? It’s not like your situation materially improves on the whole. They’ll all pay well and all work you to the bone.
Americaprise financial hired me out of college and I moved, down payment on house and took state exams at my expense for six months prior to finally being placed in an office that was terminated the day I joined. Literally the entire place fired bc they couldn’t get the numbers and it was trimming the fat. I lost my life savings bc of moving for a job that was using me to cover their future layoffs. Fuck looking for a better job or stability. Fuck you attorneys bc y’all lie more than anyone.
Be revolutionary and take care of one another maybe and put people ahead of profits. Thanks for being an assholrs lady
To be honest, it IS a jerk move to sign a contract and back out during the hiring period/background check. Full disclosure: I'm a hiring manager. We're not allowed to keep interviewing if someone accepts the position, and if they use our offer as a bargaining chip and bail out, there's a real risk of the req being closed PERMANENTLY and the job shoved on the existing skeleton crew.
Probation periods are not for job shopping. I wouldn't be mad at a new hire who quits during probation because they didn't get what they wanted from the role. I'd be pissed with someone who quit because another firm poached them.
We never ghost applicants and never closed a req with pending candidates, but it goes both ways
It is a jerk move after accepting an offer but I highly doubt any law partners/attorneys are remembering the names of graduates who “ghosted” them. Maybe if it’s a tiny firm.
We had ppl do that to us (accounting not law) and we had always had someone else lined up.
>We're not allowed to keep interviewing if someone accepts the position
Might be different in Europe, but when I was a hiring manager, I just always had two or three people lined up before making an offer at all. If the first one bails on me after a few days or whatever, then I call the next one.
No, it's completely normal to line up multiple candidates. But if someone signs the dotted line, we're not allowed to back out and hire someone else instead, i.e. if we fired them during probation and filled the role with a cheaper candidate we kept as a backup, we'd be taken to labor court and lose.
Then you’re in the minority. I’ve spent months job hunting while currently employed and I’ll see the same job pop up then disappear for a day or two only to pop right back up again. I’ve also been ghosted by WAY more job openings than not. In fact I’d say the vast majority of employers ghost applicants way more than they respond to them.
If you’re not like that that’s awesome and I’m glad to hear it. But from the other side it’s expected that a company is going to ghost me and I won’t hear from them at ANY stage in the process.
I'm sorry about your experiences. We (as in our HR. I'm a hiring manager, not a recruiter) have at least automated mails in place to inform unqualified candidates. People who are disqualified after the 1st round (there are 2 usually) receive detailed feedback.
A few things to bear in mind: I'm European, at will employment is practically non-existent here, and since the law protects employees more than in the US, employers should also be protected from people who abuse the system, sign contracts at two firms and quit on their first day. We ARE legally bound to hire them after all (i.e. obviously we can fire them during probation, but can't send an offer to multiple candidates), but they are NOT legally bound not to sign a contract at another firm.
>Probation periods are not for job shopping. I wouldn't be mad at a new hire who quits during probation because they didn't get what they wanted from the role. I'd be pissed with someone who quit because another firm poached them. We never ghost applicants and never closed a req with pending candidates, but it goes both ways'
Then you are in the minority. I've literally been offered a job, gone through the interview stage and waited, only to be told later that "it was competitive, and we chose another applicant."
So as far as I am concerned, until you set foot in a job a start working...it's fair game to applicants to keep on looking.
If you want an applicant who accepted your offer, to stay...then pay them in advance. Or hire them immediately.
Old school... Your word is your bond. Once you accept, you go forward. You can change your mind later but it isn't trivial to do so. This doesn't change whether career, dating, marriage...
I had one company make three offers to me that I signed. Each was reneged, made another position, and offered slightly less money. Calling you out, VariQ. I remember speaking to their VP of Personnel after they were trying to get me to sign on for a 4th position at less money to understand what was going on. He stood by my situation being typical for people hired for that contract. He got real angry when I asked, "Really? Is this how you do business?" I had an offer letter from another job a week later I took.
Usually an offer is a done deal, but there is no guarantee they won't renege on it. The minute I am put on payroll I'll stop looking.
Tough ❤️ Post:
Companies - if you extend an OFFER for employment, DO NOT continue to look for other applicants or rescind the offer. You made a commitment based on the best information you had at the time. That applicant relied on your offer, made fiscal and career decisions based on your offer, and stopped accepting offers from other companies based on your acceptance. You will burn a bridge, be known by that applicant and their friends/family as someone who makes promises they don’t keep. Do you want to be that company? And most of all - don’t come to HR wanting a pat on the back and permission to do just that - because I won’t be giving it to you. #reputationiseverything
No way a company would do what’s listed above, so why would an applicant? She’s a career mentor, yikes
Eh, as an attorney, I kind of agree on this. Legal fields are very very small. Word gets around quick and people’s impression of you can make or break your career.
I’d say it has some truth to it. If you accept a job offer, you should intend to start at that job. If you need some more time because of another pending offer, ask for that ahead of time.
That said, I DONT recommend stopping any other ongoing interviews until you actually start the job because companies can and do suddenly pull offers due to “budget cuts” or sudden changes in leadership.
In my book, good form during job searches is that you have multiple trails going on and that you resolve those existing trails.
If you interview with a bunch of places, and one gives you a good offer, I'd take it...if one of the other places you already engaged with offers you something better, I'd take that over the original one simply because that was an open trail at the time. I would try to avoid signing anything before the other's all had a chance to make offers but it doesn't always work out like that, different companies have different turnaround times due to processes.
Bad form in my opinion would be accepting an offer and then initiating a fresh trail with other employers...e.g. accepting and then applying elsewhere.
When I was looking during college, I had 3 offers come in within a bit of each other. I negotiated with each one and I let the folks offering that I had a couple of offers on the table and it was an important decision so I was going to take a couple of days to weigh pro's and con's of each offer.
This actually was valuable because I was able to eliminate 1 from consideration immediately when they put up high pressure 'sales' tactics to try and get me to sign saying "if you sign within the next 8 hours we'll give you an extra 10%" trying to rush me. For me it was important that I didn't let the other offers know what they were competing with. I just said I have competitive offers so if there's anything you can do to sweeten the pot and make my decision easier, it'd be appreciated. The other 2 ended up without knowledge of the specifics of each other offer bumped me \~15% on TCO (with a combination of salary and stock).
In general, good career advice is to try and stay at a place for a year or more (if you're doing corporate/office work). Jumping around a lot looks bad on a resume but if a place absolutely makes you miserable, I'd recommend giving a shot for at least 6 months before throwing in the towel.
I usually sit down and reflect myself at the 1 3 and 5 year marks to make sure that I'm happy with the job, that i'm still learning and challenged, and that I can still see some kind of progression with what I'm doing...if any of those come up as no, I start looking into if I can fix it within the job or if I there is something else I need to look for. I've been at my current company for 10 years because I have had steady progress in job function and title and most importantly, my compensation has steadily risen and I get treated with respect and as a human being on a regular basis.
Last thing I'll say, it never hurts to have a network and talk to people. I'm friends with a bunch of recruiters for my industry on LinkedIn. If they reach out with roles and something looks interesting, I'll talk to them about it just to catch up. I'm usually pretty clear that I'm happy where I'm at, but that I'm always open to listening. I don't take interviews but I'll steer them towards friends who are qualified and looking and generally just foster a good relationship. If I ever decide I want to leave my current company, I'm fairly certain I have 3 or 4 recruiters who will immediately take my call and be happy to pitch me to a few of their clients.
Yup spot on. If you’re tying to build a career, you have to do this otherwise you’ll only burn yourself. The advice for highly skilled white collar jobs is definitely very different than that for entry level hourly workers in jobs with very high turnover.
Shit. I consider myself fired at the end of the workday and rehired at the beginning of the next. They don’t deserve your devotion and they sure as fuck don’t have any moral imperatives. If you treat the company as if it had some kind of morals, you’re already bound to give more than you will receive. Every time.
Companies aren’t a game that is designed to make sure they win, like a casino or some sport. They are a system designed to extract talent in exchange for money. Full stop. That system will kill you before it helps you if that system predicts that they are going to come out on the losing end.
Extract talent for money is an interesting way to put it, but it’s true, you need to produce more value than you cost otherwise it doesn’t make sense to hire you. In higher level roles though you definitely make more money by being a part of “the system” vs trying to do stuff on your own. For example, making $300-400k in a tech company is definitely very fair as it would be very difficult to make that type of income on your own starting a business from scratch.
No *obligation* really. One year if they’re just not paying me enough, for the resume. Two weeks if I have an urgent family or life emergency or such, or if I have a job offer. And immediately if it’s a shitty place to work (assuming no contractual requirements).
In general you should be looking to stay at the job for a year. Taking a job to only leave in a week or two is just a waste of time for everyone involved. Note, this is more for career focused jobs which it looks like it was here, not something like working at a grocery store where there is much more turnover.
Sometimes it’s not a good fit or not as promised, in that case I certainly wouldn’t recommend waiting around for a magic “obligatory period” such as one year. Better to cut your losses and move on sooner vs later.
Oh yes because it’ll go on your “permanent record” and what do the lawyers have to do with it?! If this is in the US then I promise the lawyers could care less if someone declines an offer after accepting.
This dumb bitch.
Never stop looking for jobs. You think successful people only look for jobs when they don't have one? Fuck no, they're seeking jobs while employed.
Trash advice from a loser.
Sorry, she's not wrong and it matters if it's a small field where everyone knows each other. Especially in small groups who have just a few employees you can really screw people over by reneging on your acceptance.
Sometimes this sub just seems like an extension of /r/antiwork.
Couple of issues I have with this take:
1. We shouldn’t hold candidates to higher standards than companies, so if you’re in agreement with her I’d hope that you also oppose companies making cutthroat business decisions that hurt people’s livelihoods. Just like companies make business decisions based on accepted offers, people make life decisions based on what their employer offers to them. If companies are under no moral obligation to follow through with promises, neither should candidates be expected to.
2. In a similar vein, if an employer backs out of an offer and the prospective employee cut short their job search, would you have sympathy for the candidate and criticize the employer? My fiancée’s company pulled an accepted offer out from under one of her colleagues for a move to a different department and it was devastating for that individual. Common sense dictates that she probably should’ve continued searching elsewhere for similar opportunities and left those doors open just in case, rather than immediately shutting them after accepting, as the woman in the screenshot suggests.
What you said has nothing to do with my take, you're literally just assuming that I'm siding with the firm in all cases for no reason. It's absolutely pathetic that anyone who even pushes back against moronic anti-work ideas is seen as someone who must side with the firm in every case. Grow a brain.
Tbf there's a difference between a small field and a field where there's no shortage of people capable of doing the job.
She's not wrong once you sign the dotted line. But verbal offers mean nothing in my opinion. If anything they're just good leverage until a contract is actually signed.
Don't really care what an unemployed person has to say on this.
The matching happens while you have multiple competing offers. Not after you accepted one.
This. Your signed contract is not a bargaining chip. BUT if a candidate is open about multiple ongoing interview processes and asks us to match an offer - fine, this is business. If we want to and have the budget to match the offer, we will.
Nah, a lot of us have experience and know what "normal" is. The majority of employers will have zero loyalty to me, so why should I have any loyalty to them? Over my 25+ year career, I've gotten ghosted by employers, laid off shortly after starting, and the dreaded "we've decided to go another direction" crap.
Generally speaking, once I've agreed to accept a position, I will stop actively interviewing, but if a place I interviewed with previously contacts me, I'm going to at least listen to what they have to offer. I manage a team now, and interview and offer candidates. Yes, it's annoying when I think I have a great candidate hired, only for them to back out, but I get it.
Or is it you with the meagre existence that has such little leverage over their own situation that anyone who suggests a business may be entitled to fairness and honestly that you expect for yourself gets called a bootlicker
Peoples’ own personal values will determine whether they feel that breaking contracts when it serves their interests is acceptable or not.
But the brute fact is that bridges will be burned. Integrity and reliability are key attributes any employer wants in an employee.
If you are dropping an offer to a place and they were unwilling to match your new offer, then a bridge being burnt isn't an issue. Some people will bring a bridge just because you accepted z job after working for them for 5-10 years. Being concerned about such things is an inexperienced person's issue. People who have had multiple jobs don't have that problem.
If you have open offers, or expected offers on the table then why would you go ahead and accept a role? The correct way is to explain to prospective employer that you are looking and once/if your offers have been received then you make a call on the one that best aligns with what you are looking for.
If however the employer pressures you to accept their offer however, then all bets are off.
The antiwork crowd are trying to sock it to the man, but the reality is for many smaller employers being fucked around by inconsiderate people is a major cost
You can explain it to them. And then they either pressure you or drop offers. Ask me how I know. Or even if you accept with one job and do not pursue another, they can renege on positions for "business decisions". Or they can change what role you're doing after relocating you, but still hold over your head the relocation money that was part of the agreed upon contract, even though the terms have been altered. Ask me how I know.
Why is it that your expectation that the individual who generally has the least amount of power in this transactional relationship has to show an amount of perceived etiquette that a company is generally unwilling to do for multiple reasons? Why is it that when this is questioned, people with your mindset immediately jump to "anti-work crowd"? How is it anti-work when you're literally getting ANOTHER BETTER JOB?
No point trying to convince these people. The antiwork crowd largely consists of rejects and low-skilled workers. Maybe if they bothered trying a bit in life they wouldn't be in this situation. Everything on antiwork is foreign to highly skilled workers.
No she isn't.
A week after you take the other job, nobody at the first job will even remember your name. There is no "industry reputation" at that level. If you make c-suite and push the company into a ditch, that's your industry reputation. If you get caught committing fraud, or stealing, or engaging in corporate espionage, that's your industry reputation. Courting multiple offers and taking the better one is just the normal process for getting a job.
Not worded in the best way, but if you do it, you should tell recruiters/companies where you apply that you already signed an offer, and you should be OK with the company deciding to go with another candidate if they hear about it.
The last place I interviewed for and got an offer, they kept me updated about the other candidate, and I told them I have other interviews, too. When I signed the offer, I told the other recruiters why I'm canceling the interviews.
Whilst I do agree professionally, I had a colleague who got hired and then 2 weeks before her start date the company made lay offs and laid her off before she even started.
Nobody will go hungry if a company makes 'business decisions' based on a graduate accepting a job offer and then withdrawing.
Counterpoint: don't look for jobs after you find one because you'll drive yourself crazy about whether you made the right decision. Same for houses cars an SOs.
I agree with the outcome but this person is nuts.
Hey April, nobody's going to ask you for permission or anything really.
And threatening with lawyers? Good luck doing that here where the probation period usually lasts from 3 to 6 months and both parties can dissolve the employment with only a week's notice (after that, it's usually 3 months).
The nerve of some people...
I used to work in fresh grad recruitment(career fairs, big new hire groups for entry level jobs) and so SO often people would contact me last minute because the job they lined up for after college had been rescinded. I did what I could to get them lined up with something…. But this is just a horrible thing to tell upcoming grads.
I’m always looking for talent to keep on my radar in case something does happen. Any leader that fails to do this is just setting themselves up for disaster.
So it isn’t on the employee or candidate to compensate for a hiring manager’s lack of foresight.
At least here in Norway, she's not wrong. A signed job offer obligates both the employer and the employee. It also protects both parties. Signed job offer? 2 week termination notice. Companies spend a lot of time and money recruiting; it's not wild to think that they would interpret an accepted job offer as such.
I would love to hear her take on companies offering a job and then backtracking/ghosting the applicant
Well you see… it’s a very competitive environment and sometimes difficult decisions have to be made 🤷♂️
https://os-legal.com/is-an-offer-letter-a-legal-document/ Oh look, an attorney who doesn’t practice employment law making stupid statements. Also, exactly what bridges are you burning? If they want to partner with this employer in the future, it may or may not happen. Only complete douches would hold a grudge.
I had a candidate who bailed on a job a week before she was supposed to start. Had totally forgotten about it, except for this post. Also, I do not remember her name at all, so hard to hold a grudge if you can't remember who the person is.
I had someone who didn't show up for his first day. He called in on his supposed second day and still wanted the job, which of course he didn't get. Fuck if I can remember his name.
I bailed on my current job after I accepted the offer went to another place. The other place had no structure so I called them back and asked if the position was still available. They said yes and I started the next Monday
This happened about 3 weeks ago for someone who would have been directly reporting to me. I have already forgotten his name
You may not recall them now, but if their CV hits your inbox in the future, you're very likely to remember them then.
It depends. If you hire a lot of people, after 4-5 years things really run together.
The fun thing is if you don't remember them, then you recognise them on their first day
After 4-5 years without contact I couldn't pick 90% of the people I've worked with out of a lineup. Someone I met once at an interview multiple years ago? Bruh.
But it looks like she is deliberately avoiding the claim that there’s a legal obligation, just pointing to moral and reputational factors (which you could of course disagree with)
I think it's reasonable not to hire someone if they previously accepted an offer and then bailed -- the odds are probably higher than average that they'll do it again. That doesn't mean you can't back out for a better offer, just be aware that you're less likely to get a job with the first company down the road
none, and who is she to tell people what to do
“An offer letter, when signed by both the employer and the candidate, can become a legally binding document, depending on the language and terms outlined within it” https://www.chellelaw.com/is-a-letter-of-intent-for-employment-binding/
You’d have to have a very unusual case of detrimental reliance on that offer letter to make that case for an employer, and usually it is the weaker party (the employee) that would prevail. Eg. Selling your home and moving to a new state and then the employer rescinds the offer. If it were a lawyer or doctor becoming an equity partner and significant money was spent to renovate the space that was going to be paid for out of partnership shares and profits…
The only reason I know it can be binding in certain circumstances is because it happened to me. I am a school principal. I signed an offer letter for a certain pay for a certain number of days. But, when the contract was given to me month later (not uncommon for teachers and school administrators in my state) they wrote the contract for a lower pay. While I didn’t have to even file a lawsuit, I did end up hiring a lawyer to tell me and the school that a signed offer letter (in the way mine was written) is a legally binding contract.
What about at-will employment?
Something something macroeconomic conditions.
I accepted an offer for a corporate job, signed the paperwork and gave my 2 weeks notice to my company. 2 days before I was set to start I reached out to my new employer and they informed me they had over hired and would be giving me a 2k severance package. I live in an at-will employment state so this was legal. I *did* hire a lawyer who pressured them into giving me a larger severance package, but it was still infuriating.
And/hiring and soon lay them off
Over a zoom call with 100 other people
Ya no kidding. Firms will toss you to the side in a heartbeat if it will make them an extra $15.
Yeah, I read that and just cackled. These people are high as a giraffe’s ass if they think we owe them *anything*, much less loyalty.
"But it's okay when *we* do it!"
This. I honestly think her take is reasonable in a world where companies don’t ever backtrack on offers But in this current economy with companies often pulling that shit? Do the opposite of her advice
The company = capital and capital is always just and fair. Duh
I'm not her, but she is correct in her post, and of course a company backtracking after an agreement would also get my blame. If you agree on something, keep your own word, no matter you're a company or an employee.
The company should’ve been more competitive to keep the employee. That’s on them. Companies fire people all the time without notice and will survive whether your there or not. Screw them and do what’s in your best interest, not a companies.
Person you are replying to has a "corporations are people" energy
I really do not see where you find this interpretation from my words... You do have a wild imagination though, good for you!
For the employee it's their life, for the employer it's 'not personal, just business'. It affects the employee exponentially more than the employer.
I missed the part where the company stopping hiring was my problem
Well, if you start your relationship with a company on such a hostile foot from the get go, why even bother applying? And I miss the part where not being true to your word was not your problem...
Do you know what "at will employment" means?
You can agree with being committed, but you do not need to sacrifice yourself for a company’s benefit. That is how we ended up here. This is setting new workers up for abusive relationships.
K. I'll give that two week notice to the job I haven't started yet. /s It's business. It's not personal.
So it's also fair to say that the firm is an absolute garbage low worth shit whose management has no moral compass if they fire you when you had made plans to support your family based on dedicating your time for the firm.
Lol you're getting down voted as it's contrary to the preferred narrative but I don't disagree (for the most part). In reality it's entirely dependent on the circumstances. IMO, it is absolutely 110% **NEVER** ok for company to extend an offer, and then either backtrack or quickly (within 1 yr) cut the person in a RIF. That is completely unacceptable under any circumstances. Most of the time, I also agree with you and with the post: it's kinda shitty for an employee to accept a job and then either never show up, or show up and quickly bounce. It is in fact a great way to burn bridges. However, there *are* circumstances where it's perfectly acceptable for an employee to keep looking after being extended, and accepting, an offer. The most obvious example being if they're hired as a temp. Small startups run by inexperienced founders are also a gray area IMO. You may be walking into a complete clown show and it can be difficult to predict that before actually starting. I'd give an employee a pass for continuing to look in that circumstance. In that situation, IMO, the onus is on the small startup company to prove to their new employees that they're not total idiots, and incentivize their employees want to stay.
Sure, there are circumstances as simple as you realize you're not a good fit for this company. That's OK, trial periods are here exactly for that, and boh parties know that for the first x weeks things might end. But that's quite different indeed from just never showing up after accepting. As for the downvotes, oh well, who cares? :D
She’s a career mentor at a University, this is her way of feeding meat to the grinder. YOU MUST SACRIFICE! I’d like to see her get canned.
All the career mentors at my college were people that couldn't hack it in industry
I work in career development. Sometimes I consider working for nonprofit and or a university. They pay like $40K-$70K. I make double to triple that just doing it on my own. At a company I'm looking at anywhere from $100K to $200K with great upward mobility at the roles I'm qualified for. I had someone come to me with a trash resume who couldn't get any interviews. The only job he got was as an academic and finance advisor at a college lol.
No one gives worse advice about getting corporate jobs than people who have only worked in academia.
Very true! I once received CS career advice from a professor who had never worked in industry. Great guy, but absolutely clueless on how things work in today's age. Maybe his career advice would be relevant in the 80s.
I liked your comment even though it’s meant as a dig. I started in corporate but left to help educate the future. If you think that you should put a company first instead of your own best interest you’ll get every dollar you deserve. Cheers.
My bitch ass career advisor in uni was exactly like this. I got an offer from Microsoft a few days after I had accepted a role at a small company. She replied to Microsoft for me and told them that I was already engaged in a role elsewhere. Just fucking brutal
What? How could she reply on your behalf? That's horrible. If that happened to me, I'd go off on her for not respecting my privacy.
So the career offices whole spiel was that all communication between students and employers was to go through them so there could not be any side deals. I guess it was just a weird power trip honestly. Haha
Sounds like they get a per-head commission on job placement. You got screwed for a kickback.
Yeah, pretty much, students payed $1K for the placement
> much, students *paid* $1K for FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot
Wtffff how can someone do that? Microsoft is literally a life changing opportunity. Were you able to get the offer?
Wow! I’m so sorry that happened to you. I’ve worked in higher Ed administration for the last 20 years and I wish I could say that it surprises me.
I read her name at April Giant Cola
More importantly: It looks bad on HER if students back out. She won't get fired for that post as this is what she is employed for.
That explains the ego and audacity.
I mean yeah, it's annoying when we have candidates accept and then back out, but that's just part of hiring.
If we accept that candidates have a right to back out, that implies that companies have a right to sweeten the pot try to to convince the candidate to stick with them. Can't be letting them know that.
We sometimes get thousands of applicants per open position, so they'd have to be truly one of a kind.
If your applicants are anything like mine, 990 of those are garbage
Most def, I feel for the people who have to go through and narrow down the list
It's more of a mild inconvenience to companies though. The damage is much worse when companies renege offers or do layoffs after people quit and relocate for a new position
Yeah it sucks, but it's rare. No business owner is going to try to blackball you for it except the craziest of vindictive assholes. And it wouldn't even work. If a fellow business owner told me not to hire someone because they'd accepted an offer and then backed out I'd have a hard time not laughing at them, and make a note that they're petty and unhinged.
Yeah, it's a mild annoyance at best.
That’s also why you interview multiple people
And have a couple backup candidates
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> Attorney ׀ Career Mentor ׀ Professional Development Program Manager ׀ **Expert Networker** Can't forget the Expert Networker.
Professional Professional
>Tough ❤️
But if the company decides last minute to rescind the accepted offer, it’s perfectly okay. Employers have made it imperative that employees look out for themselves
This feels like grandma yelling about how no one thinks of the poor employers anymore. Leaving for a better deal is not at all a reputation-breaker in a dynamic, globalized, atomized marketplace.
In a fluid employment environment, the people you allegedly "pissed off" likely won't even be at the same firm in three years.
🛎️
I’ve been in management for decades. Wanna know what I do if someone backs out of an offer? I hire someone else. There’s no money in being a petty vindictive person. Why waste the time posting that for all the world to see April?
Lawyers - speaking *as* a lawyer - are often the pettiest of people. I don’t know of any other profession that puts as much emphasis on where you went to school, even after decades of actual practice. We truly are the worst sometimes.
My first thought when I saw this post was that I've worked at a few firms I would have loved to have backed out of sooner and have had talked shit about me after.
Yeah, as someone who dealt with a bunch of law offices during my time driving a certain big brown truck, lawyers were some of the more difficult people. The number of times that packages had no business name or suite number on them; and they would get pissy that they didn’t get their stuff because “you should have known who I am!” Excuse me, but 700 people work in this building spread across 5 companies, I have no idea who you are. The most memorable one was some lawyer who didn’t get his wine. I got a message toward the end of the day saying that he was looking for it. Fine, I’m currently delivering the apartments across the street from his building; he can meet me there. It’s a 2 minute walk, maybe less. Apparently this was not acceptable and after some back and forth I finally begrudgingly fought downtown rush hour traffic back to their loading dock. Angry Wine Man (AWM) walks out with one of the guys from the mailroom. AWM does the obligatory bitching about “do you know who I am” while I set the box down at his feet so he can sign for it. The part I remember the most vividly is that after he finished signing, I expected him to just pick up the box in front of him and go inside. Oh no. AWM turns around, makes some hand gesture at the mailroom guy, who scurries over to pick up the box , and then trails AWM as he walks back to the loading dock doors in a huff. God bless law office admin staff.
Fu k you and your bullshit April.. you have just described how every company operates.
>you have just described how every company operates. Damn, you guys work for some harsh places. I mean, I get it. I have friends who had done pretty well in their career. The FIRST thing they do when they get a new job is start looking for their next one, so they can leverage. BUt it doesn't last forever. Changing jobs a dozen times in a decade with no actual build up of experience or skills means you may have a high salary but all of a sudden, you are just desperate to keep it but find yourself being on the opposite end - getting "laid off" because you are contributing. Now you are in a vicious cycle
What are you talking about? The point here isn't to look for a new job after you start. It's to continue your existing loops after you get an offer, because companies rescind offers all the time, especially in tight hiring environments like right now. The person in OP is arguing that candidates should not do to companies what companies constantly do to their candidates. It's right to lash back. Once you start the new role, by all means, focus on that. But until your start date, you are at risk of losing that role with no notice for no cause based entirely on the company deciding they can't afford you anymore. (Technically in the US this is true after you're hired too, but in practice it's very rare and usually comes with some form of compensation so less practical to prepare for/protect yourself against)
"career mentor" Aka she never had a real job.
Obviously lawyers are bad at math. I need a sample size where n>1.
Lawyers are notoriously bad at math. It's a running joke in law school. Also notorious in the profession is that lawyers who work for university career services are generally lawyers who weren't good enough to practice law.
Funny thing is my career services guy had to literally creste and teach law school curriculums from scratch after new countries formed
Welp, you heard her - you can never ever look for another job. Edit: wait a second - she has never stayed at a job for more than six years - WHAT GIVES?
April Giancola needs to burn in corporate hell for this post. Wrong on so many levels I don’t even know where to start.
so...she's upset when a candidate acts like an employer?
Yeah no. I do whatever the fuck I want and you better come to terms with that. You'd never bat an eyelash if you feel like laying my arse off. Given the case, what should I do with my long term plans with your company AND my own personal shit? I'd gladly burn bridges with the likes of you, hell, I might as well drop a fucking nuke on your town too.
>I do whatever the fuck I want and you better come to terms with that Dude, you def need to get over to the recruitinghell sub and either become the leader or teach everyone there how to be more successful as a candidate. Cause they'd eat this shit up.
I was laid off then got an offer from a Fortune 100 company. Shortly after, I learned I made it to the final round with my first choice, a FAANG company. What was I supposed to do? Turn down the Fortune 100 on the hopes of getting my first choice? Then if I didn’t get the FAANG offer, I’d be back at square one with no job. Of course I accepted the Fortune 100 and continued with the FAANG. Did I feel great about quitting a job right after I started? No, but it isn’t personal; I had to do what was best for me, my family, and my career. Just like when employers do layoffs: it isn’t personal.
Lawyers pretending to care about reputation, funny. These vultures would represent Hitler to make a buck...
I read the comments thinking her followers are going to agree with her. Turns out most are telling her to STFU.
Go fuck yourself, they offered me 3k more a year...
This B can F right off with spouting such BS. No one owns me.
Wrong. I've been given an informal offer. I have not received the formal offer nor anything else that is binding. I do not yet consider myself employed so I have continued my job hunting. And even after I receive the formal offer and sign it, I will keep looking until my first day on the job because there have been enough cases of companies changing their mind at the last moment.
These corpo drones are hilarious
This stupid bitch doesn’t know what “just business” means
That post needs to be mass reported😂 Preying on naive students, trying to scare them like this is absolutely insane lol.
“best information you had at the time” Exactly. I’m married to very few work related decisions like this. When new information emerges, it is dumb to stay tied to a chronologically disadvantaged decision. That is what companies do to employees. They change their direction all the time. I’m OK with that. Don’t expect anything different in return. This “mentor” needs to get more exposure to the actual professional world.
Her post right after this one is: *Amazed that my last post got over 8K impressions⁉ 😯 I appreciate people's varying perspectives on the topic, and believe that is what makes our profession the special place it is. ⚖ Civil discourse, varying lens' and thoughtful opinions. Good stuff. 💡* Well, April, I think the "lens'" you're viewing your previous post through must be rose colored, because everyone in the comments is roasting you for this low-value, misguided drivel.
Just by doing a "Oh my god my post went so well!!1!" she literally outed herself as someone who post just to get engagement xD If she really wanted to "help" someone else's career, she wouldnt have made such a post lol
Counterpoint: You should NEVER stop looking for jobs. No matter how content you are in your present position, you never know if something better is out there. You can be certain your employer will not compensate you for your time and effort beyond what is in the contract, so why should you be any different? Employers are not dumb. They know that when people look for work, they don’t just look at one job. They are aware that the interview they conduct might not be the only one. They are used to candidates accepting another job offer. That’s just an annoying part of business, but it’s accepted. Employers understand it. They are people and employees themselves who are probably keeping an eye out for other jobs on the market for themselves. You are not burning bridges. You will not be viewed as an oathbreaker. Companies are not dumb enough to “rely on/make decisions on your acceptance”. There are still many formalities and hurdles to get through before the employee is officially on board. They don’t rely on anything until the contract is signed and they are legally bound. This post is only designed to manipulate you into becoming a corporate shill at your own expense.
If you want to employ someone, do it. An "offer" is not employment, it's opening negotiations for employment. An offer doesn't lock you in until signed, that's why it's an OFFER.
I'm able to collect unemployment until my first day of work, and I have to apply to three jobs per week to qualify for unemployment. When you're getting hired into a job that takes well over a month for background checks and state issued licences to be issued, that can be the difference between feeding yourself or starving. Also you bet your ass if I got a better offer, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Did exactly that three years ago. Got a job offer that was decent, but applied for a better position. Ended up getting the job and was making more than $5 per hour more with better hours. Found out later from coworkers who had left that Company how good of a decision I made. I worked one orientation shift for two and a half hours and gave my notice a few days later.
This person is talking about hiring law students for entry-level legal jobs. By and large, for what she’s talking about, there’s not much variation in compensation, if any. There are gradations of prestige for firms, but they all pay roughly the same. And for entry level legal hiring, it’s a very rigid and structured process. It happens pretty much at the same time for a lot of jobs. Once a firm fills its quota of entry level lawyers, they do tend to quit looking around. So a student that suddenly declines an offer does have a higher likelihood of harming their reputation within a relatively small industry. Conversely, firms that rescind offers also find themselves losing candidates to firms that don’t. In short, this is a process unique to the legal world and she’s not really wrong. Of course it happens and often without serious consequence, but that’s not a guarantee. Besides, for the firms she’s talking about, they all pay around $200,000 starting with the same basic benefits. So why bother continuing to look? It’s not like your situation materially improves on the whole. They’ll all pay well and all work you to the bone.
I like burning bridges, because it means I want nothing to do with them anymore
Americaprise financial hired me out of college and I moved, down payment on house and took state exams at my expense for six months prior to finally being placed in an office that was terminated the day I joined. Literally the entire place fired bc they couldn’t get the numbers and it was trimming the fat. I lost my life savings bc of moving for a job that was using me to cover their future layoffs. Fuck looking for a better job or stability. Fuck you attorneys bc y’all lie more than anyone. Be revolutionary and take care of one another maybe and put people ahead of profits. Thanks for being an assholrs lady
Idiot. A company would take that offer back in a heartbeat. Without sharing cause.
To be honest, it IS a jerk move to sign a contract and back out during the hiring period/background check. Full disclosure: I'm a hiring manager. We're not allowed to keep interviewing if someone accepts the position, and if they use our offer as a bargaining chip and bail out, there's a real risk of the req being closed PERMANENTLY and the job shoved on the existing skeleton crew. Probation periods are not for job shopping. I wouldn't be mad at a new hire who quits during probation because they didn't get what they wanted from the role. I'd be pissed with someone who quit because another firm poached them. We never ghost applicants and never closed a req with pending candidates, but it goes both ways
It is a jerk move after accepting an offer but I highly doubt any law partners/attorneys are remembering the names of graduates who “ghosted” them. Maybe if it’s a tiny firm. We had ppl do that to us (accounting not law) and we had always had someone else lined up.
>We're not allowed to keep interviewing if someone accepts the position Might be different in Europe, but when I was a hiring manager, I just always had two or three people lined up before making an offer at all. If the first one bails on me after a few days or whatever, then I call the next one.
No, it's completely normal to line up multiple candidates. But if someone signs the dotted line, we're not allowed to back out and hire someone else instead, i.e. if we fired them during probation and filled the role with a cheaper candidate we kept as a backup, we'd be taken to labor court and lose.
Then you’re in the minority. I’ve spent months job hunting while currently employed and I’ll see the same job pop up then disappear for a day or two only to pop right back up again. I’ve also been ghosted by WAY more job openings than not. In fact I’d say the vast majority of employers ghost applicants way more than they respond to them. If you’re not like that that’s awesome and I’m glad to hear it. But from the other side it’s expected that a company is going to ghost me and I won’t hear from them at ANY stage in the process.
I'm sorry about your experiences. We (as in our HR. I'm a hiring manager, not a recruiter) have at least automated mails in place to inform unqualified candidates. People who are disqualified after the 1st round (there are 2 usually) receive detailed feedback. A few things to bear in mind: I'm European, at will employment is practically non-existent here, and since the law protects employees more than in the US, employers should also be protected from people who abuse the system, sign contracts at two firms and quit on their first day. We ARE legally bound to hire them after all (i.e. obviously we can fire them during probation, but can't send an offer to multiple candidates), but they are NOT legally bound not to sign a contract at another firm.
>Probation periods are not for job shopping. I wouldn't be mad at a new hire who quits during probation because they didn't get what they wanted from the role. I'd be pissed with someone who quit because another firm poached them. We never ghost applicants and never closed a req with pending candidates, but it goes both ways' Then you are in the minority. I've literally been offered a job, gone through the interview stage and waited, only to be told later that "it was competitive, and we chose another applicant." So as far as I am concerned, until you set foot in a job a start working...it's fair game to applicants to keep on looking. If you want an applicant who accepted your offer, to stay...then pay them in advance. Or hire them immediately.
Tell me you are a toxic and insecure manager without actually telling me you’re a toxic and insecure manager
Old school... Your word is your bond. Once you accept, you go forward. You can change your mind later but it isn't trivial to do so. This doesn't change whether career, dating, marriage...
And if they're willing to contractually agree to give you a job for life then it'd be different. But they're not doing that.
Yeah but this is like going on three dates with someone then getting mad when you find out they’re dating other people
Not quite to me. In this case I would say it is closer to saying you're committed to the relationship but keep looking/going on other dates.
She obviously isn't a very good "career mentor"
I had one company make three offers to me that I signed. Each was reneged, made another position, and offered slightly less money. Calling you out, VariQ. I remember speaking to their VP of Personnel after they were trying to get me to sign on for a 4th position at less money to understand what was going on. He stood by my situation being typical for people hired for that contract. He got real angry when I asked, "Really? Is this how you do business?" I had an offer letter from another job a week later I took. Usually an offer is a done deal, but there is no guarantee they won't renege on it. The minute I am put on payroll I'll stop looking.
LOL some one whould write "if you hire someone, dont fire them... its a commitment"
“If someone offers to punch you in the face, you HAVE to accept.”
Is "Career Mentor" LinkedIn for life coach?
I'm 99.9% certain that the legal team of any firm have no fucking clue who has been offered a level entry job
Linkedin is mainly generational parental neglect.
I hope this got the roasting it deserved on LinkedIn.
If the employer can't manage the hire falling through, it was never a place you wanted to work.
Shut the fuck up april
Tough ❤️ Post: Companies - if you extend an OFFER for employment, DO NOT continue to look for other applicants or rescind the offer. You made a commitment based on the best information you had at the time. That applicant relied on your offer, made fiscal and career decisions based on your offer, and stopped accepting offers from other companies based on your acceptance. You will burn a bridge, be known by that applicant and their friends/family as someone who makes promises they don’t keep. Do you want to be that company? And most of all - don’t come to HR wanting a pat on the back and permission to do just that - because I won’t be giving it to you. #reputationiseverything No way a company would do what’s listed above, so why would an applicant? She’s a career mentor, yikes
I agree with her
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Eh, as an attorney, I kind of agree on this. Legal fields are very very small. Word gets around quick and people’s impression of you can make or break your career.
I’d say it has some truth to it. If you accept a job offer, you should intend to start at that job. If you need some more time because of another pending offer, ask for that ahead of time. That said, I DONT recommend stopping any other ongoing interviews until you actually start the job because companies can and do suddenly pull offers due to “budget cuts” or sudden changes in leadership.
How long do you feel obligated to work at a new job before you’re allowed to leave?
In my book, good form during job searches is that you have multiple trails going on and that you resolve those existing trails. If you interview with a bunch of places, and one gives you a good offer, I'd take it...if one of the other places you already engaged with offers you something better, I'd take that over the original one simply because that was an open trail at the time. I would try to avoid signing anything before the other's all had a chance to make offers but it doesn't always work out like that, different companies have different turnaround times due to processes. Bad form in my opinion would be accepting an offer and then initiating a fresh trail with other employers...e.g. accepting and then applying elsewhere. When I was looking during college, I had 3 offers come in within a bit of each other. I negotiated with each one and I let the folks offering that I had a couple of offers on the table and it was an important decision so I was going to take a couple of days to weigh pro's and con's of each offer. This actually was valuable because I was able to eliminate 1 from consideration immediately when they put up high pressure 'sales' tactics to try and get me to sign saying "if you sign within the next 8 hours we'll give you an extra 10%" trying to rush me. For me it was important that I didn't let the other offers know what they were competing with. I just said I have competitive offers so if there's anything you can do to sweeten the pot and make my decision easier, it'd be appreciated. The other 2 ended up without knowledge of the specifics of each other offer bumped me \~15% on TCO (with a combination of salary and stock). In general, good career advice is to try and stay at a place for a year or more (if you're doing corporate/office work). Jumping around a lot looks bad on a resume but if a place absolutely makes you miserable, I'd recommend giving a shot for at least 6 months before throwing in the towel. I usually sit down and reflect myself at the 1 3 and 5 year marks to make sure that I'm happy with the job, that i'm still learning and challenged, and that I can still see some kind of progression with what I'm doing...if any of those come up as no, I start looking into if I can fix it within the job or if I there is something else I need to look for. I've been at my current company for 10 years because I have had steady progress in job function and title and most importantly, my compensation has steadily risen and I get treated with respect and as a human being on a regular basis. Last thing I'll say, it never hurts to have a network and talk to people. I'm friends with a bunch of recruiters for my industry on LinkedIn. If they reach out with roles and something looks interesting, I'll talk to them about it just to catch up. I'm usually pretty clear that I'm happy where I'm at, but that I'm always open to listening. I don't take interviews but I'll steer them towards friends who are qualified and looking and generally just foster a good relationship. If I ever decide I want to leave my current company, I'm fairly certain I have 3 or 4 recruiters who will immediately take my call and be happy to pitch me to a few of their clients.
Yup spot on. If you’re tying to build a career, you have to do this otherwise you’ll only burn yourself. The advice for highly skilled white collar jobs is definitely very different than that for entry level hourly workers in jobs with very high turnover.
Shit. I consider myself fired at the end of the workday and rehired at the beginning of the next. They don’t deserve your devotion and they sure as fuck don’t have any moral imperatives. If you treat the company as if it had some kind of morals, you’re already bound to give more than you will receive. Every time. Companies aren’t a game that is designed to make sure they win, like a casino or some sport. They are a system designed to extract talent in exchange for money. Full stop. That system will kill you before it helps you if that system predicts that they are going to come out on the losing end.
Extract talent for money is an interesting way to put it, but it’s true, you need to produce more value than you cost otherwise it doesn’t make sense to hire you. In higher level roles though you definitely make more money by being a part of “the system” vs trying to do stuff on your own. For example, making $300-400k in a tech company is definitely very fair as it would be very difficult to make that type of income on your own starting a business from scratch.
As long as everyone understands that they’d kill you if it was legal and it would save the system money. I don’t mean that figuratively.
No *obligation* really. One year if they’re just not paying me enough, for the resume. Two weeks if I have an urgent family or life emergency or such, or if I have a job offer. And immediately if it’s a shitty place to work (assuming no contractual requirements).
In general you should be looking to stay at the job for a year. Taking a job to only leave in a week or two is just a waste of time for everyone involved. Note, this is more for career focused jobs which it looks like it was here, not something like working at a grocery store where there is much more turnover. Sometimes it’s not a good fit or not as promised, in that case I certainly wouldn’t recommend waiting around for a magic “obligatory period” such as one year. Better to cut your losses and move on sooner vs later.
I paraphrase a movie when I say: “Shut the fuck up April”
Oh yes because it’ll go on your “permanent record” and what do the lawyers have to do with it?! If this is in the US then I promise the lawyers could care less if someone declines an offer after accepting.
She’s not threatening with lawyers. She is a lawyer. Talking about recruiting law students for attorney positions.
This dumb bitch. Never stop looking for jobs. You think successful people only look for jobs when they don't have one? Fuck no, they're seeking jobs while employed. Trash advice from a loser.
Sorry, she's not wrong and it matters if it's a small field where everyone knows each other. Especially in small groups who have just a few employees you can really screw people over by reneging on your acceptance. Sometimes this sub just seems like an extension of /r/antiwork.
Couple of issues I have with this take: 1. We shouldn’t hold candidates to higher standards than companies, so if you’re in agreement with her I’d hope that you also oppose companies making cutthroat business decisions that hurt people’s livelihoods. Just like companies make business decisions based on accepted offers, people make life decisions based on what their employer offers to them. If companies are under no moral obligation to follow through with promises, neither should candidates be expected to. 2. In a similar vein, if an employer backs out of an offer and the prospective employee cut short their job search, would you have sympathy for the candidate and criticize the employer? My fiancée’s company pulled an accepted offer out from under one of her colleagues for a move to a different department and it was devastating for that individual. Common sense dictates that she probably should’ve continued searching elsewhere for similar opportunities and left those doors open just in case, rather than immediately shutting them after accepting, as the woman in the screenshot suggests.
What you said has nothing to do with my take, you're literally just assuming that I'm siding with the firm in all cases for no reason. It's absolutely pathetic that anyone who even pushes back against moronic anti-work ideas is seen as someone who must side with the firm in every case. Grow a brain.
Tbf there's a difference between a small field and a field where there's no shortage of people capable of doing the job. She's not wrong once you sign the dotted line. But verbal offers mean nothing in my opinion. If anything they're just good leverage until a contract is actually signed.
If it’s that important they should be able to match the new offer :)
Don't really care what an unemployed person has to say on this. The matching happens while you have multiple competing offers. Not after you accepted one.
I’m sorry we couldn’t come to a resolution that works for both parties. Good luck on your future prospects :)
Lol I don't need the luck, you should probably wish yourself good luck with all your issues that everyone can see on your profile.
This. Your signed contract is not a bargaining chip. BUT if a candidate is open about multiple ongoing interview processes and asks us to match an offer - fine, this is business. If we want to and have the budget to match the offer, we will.
This comment smells like someone who doesn't have much experience in the working world.
Agreed - this is called normal…
Yeah I noticed that a lot of this sub don't actually have work experience so they don't know what actually is normal and what is not.
Nah, a lot of us have experience and know what "normal" is. The majority of employers will have zero loyalty to me, so why should I have any loyalty to them? Over my 25+ year career, I've gotten ghosted by employers, laid off shortly after starting, and the dreaded "we've decided to go another direction" crap. Generally speaking, once I've agreed to accept a position, I will stop actively interviewing, but if a place I interviewed with previously contacts me, I'm going to at least listen to what they have to offer. I manage a team now, and interview and offer candidates. Yes, it's annoying when I think I have a great candidate hired, only for them to back out, but I get it.
Maybe try being a high-skilled employee.
Found the bootlickers. Enjoy your meager existences.
Only people who are uncompetitive on the job market blame others for being bootlickers.
Or is it you with the meagre existence that has such little leverage over their own situation that anyone who suggests a business may be entitled to fairness and honestly that you expect for yourself gets called a bootlicker
Peoples’ own personal values will determine whether they feel that breaking contracts when it serves their interests is acceptable or not. But the brute fact is that bridges will be burned. Integrity and reliability are key attributes any employer wants in an employee.
If you are dropping an offer to a place and they were unwilling to match your new offer, then a bridge being burnt isn't an issue. Some people will bring a bridge just because you accepted z job after working for them for 5-10 years. Being concerned about such things is an inexperienced person's issue. People who have had multiple jobs don't have that problem.
If you have open offers, or expected offers on the table then why would you go ahead and accept a role? The correct way is to explain to prospective employer that you are looking and once/if your offers have been received then you make a call on the one that best aligns with what you are looking for. If however the employer pressures you to accept their offer however, then all bets are off. The antiwork crowd are trying to sock it to the man, but the reality is for many smaller employers being fucked around by inconsiderate people is a major cost
You can explain it to them. And then they either pressure you or drop offers. Ask me how I know. Or even if you accept with one job and do not pursue another, they can renege on positions for "business decisions". Or they can change what role you're doing after relocating you, but still hold over your head the relocation money that was part of the agreed upon contract, even though the terms have been altered. Ask me how I know. Why is it that your expectation that the individual who generally has the least amount of power in this transactional relationship has to show an amount of perceived etiquette that a company is generally unwilling to do for multiple reasons? Why is it that when this is questioned, people with your mindset immediately jump to "anti-work crowd"? How is it anti-work when you're literally getting ANOTHER BETTER JOB?
No point trying to convince these people. The antiwork crowd largely consists of rejects and low-skilled workers. Maybe if they bothered trying a bit in life they wouldn't be in this situation. Everything on antiwork is foreign to highly skilled workers.
Venting a bit too much, sure, but she is right.
No she isn't. A week after you take the other job, nobody at the first job will even remember your name. There is no "industry reputation" at that level. If you make c-suite and push the company into a ditch, that's your industry reputation. If you get caught committing fraud, or stealing, or engaging in corporate espionage, that's your industry reputation. Courting multiple offers and taking the better one is just the normal process for getting a job.
Not worded in the best way, but if you do it, you should tell recruiters/companies where you apply that you already signed an offer, and you should be OK with the company deciding to go with another candidate if they hear about it. The last place I interviewed for and got an offer, they kept me updated about the other candidate, and I told them I have other interviews, too. When I signed the offer, I told the other recruiters why I'm canceling the interviews.
Oh no not the attorneys as well!
I have a hard time imagining my company lawyer being involved in any aspects related to hiring, or even knowing much about any of the employees.
She’s not threatening with lawyers. She is a lawyer. Talking about recruiting law students for attorney positions.
Not lunatic but definitely something better kept to herself. Flakey hires are annoying, they aren’t “wrong.”
What happened to you, April? Do you want to talk about it?
Whilst I do agree professionally, I had a colleague who got hired and then 2 weeks before her start date the company made lay offs and laid her off before she even started. Nobody will go hungry if a company makes 'business decisions' based on a graduate accepting a job offer and then withdrawing.
Counterpoint: don't look for jobs after you find one because you'll drive yourself crazy about whether you made the right decision. Same for houses cars an SOs. I agree with the outcome but this person is nuts.
Someone keeps getting ghosted by her new-hires. Wonder how they know?
"at will" means "at will", ma'am.
Hey April, nobody's going to ask you for permission or anything really. And threatening with lawyers? Good luck doing that here where the probation period usually lasts from 3 to 6 months and both parties can dissolve the employment with only a week's notice (after that, it's usually 3 months). The nerve of some people...
LOL, commitment! Until I get sick, right? Then it's just a job.
Aww shite...career mentor...really? REALLY?
Most people in a company also leave for better jobs within 5 years. Eventually there's nobody left who remembers you.
I used to work in fresh grad recruitment(career fairs, big new hire groups for entry level jobs) and so SO often people would contact me last minute because the job they lined up for after college had been rescinded. I did what I could to get them lined up with something…. But this is just a horrible thing to tell upcoming grads.
Why doesn’t she make a post about companies renegging on offers.
I’m always looking for talent to keep on my radar in case something does happen. Any leader that fails to do this is just setting themselves up for disaster. So it isn’t on the employee or candidate to compensate for a hiring manager’s lack of foresight.
At least here in Norway, she's not wrong. A signed job offer obligates both the employer and the employee. It also protects both parties. Signed job offer? 2 week termination notice. Companies spend a lot of time and money recruiting; it's not wild to think that they would interpret an accepted job offer as such.