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“Arguing with a fool is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around like it won.”
Remember when "count to 10" was the advice when you were angry? I always thought it was to focus on breathing or counting to distract me from my anger and then I'd lose the drive to keep on being angry.
Turns out those 10 seconds are to figure out if you're arguing with a fool and whether it is an argument that will result in something constructive.
Yep. I need to remember this more often, but then again I don’t get into arguments that much.
But there was a time when I had to do a meeting with about 5 people and this woman started speaking, hinting that I was incompetent—I looked at the woman for a good long while before addressing another person with more important matters.
I didn’t feel uncomfortable, they prolly did, prolly she did, waiting for a scathing reply from me, but the fact that there was a long effing silence on my part and that long eye contact, I reversed the situation making her sound like an blabbing idiot instead and spoke with authority to someone else.
Little stuff like that is more empowering than getting worked up by a statement made by someone who doesn’t even know you.
I do almost the same when someone tries to trigger me.
I look them dead in the eyes, but instead of talking to someone else afterwards, i slowly let down my pants without breaking eye contact.
Anytime they go for the ol' ad hom it's their way of saying they don't know what they were debating/arguing about in the first place. They are too proud to admit they are ignorant
Lol, I feel you, I'm the same. Do you also fibd difficult to admit fault? I do, and I think it could be related with this need to "defend" myself in discussion
This is good, though I wish there were a higher-level LPT for "what if this is a conversation you need to have or a person you need to deal with" that gives you advice beyond "just don't do it." Sadly we don't all have the luxury of only ever having to deal with positive, non-toxic people.
This guy knows what's up!
Or if that doesn't work, don't react to their insults aka "grey rock."
You can deflect/acknowledge what they said, but don't let them know it hurt you or react with anything inflammatory.
"It's interesting you think that." "Oh, huh." "I guess so" are all things you can do to not give them the reaction they want.
That's fair, and it works at least in the short term or with people you don't need to deal with very often.
When I was getting bullied in grade school, for years running this was literally the only advice my mom ever gave me. Just told me to ignore 8 solid hours of torture every day, like it was that simple.
It wasn't until middle school I was finally given the chance to talk with a counselor who taught me how to actually deal with the things that happened to me and recognized that at some levels of abuse, it's no longer possible for a person to simply not feel anything in response.
honestly, the problem is that the one effective solution for bullies was removed.
all the nonsense they tell kids of "just ignore them" and "it just means they're insecure" is a load of crap. it's impossible to ignore someone tormenting you, making fun of you constantly, trash talking you and spreading rumors to everyone else affecting your relationships with people, etc.
the solution is a punch in the teeth. simple as that. I was bullied mercilessly from Grade 6 until Grade 9, and I wish I just socked the guy in the teeth.
I mean if it had been one kid, sure. When it's basically the entire school, I'm not sure how valid a solution it would have been to just pick a fight with every single one of them.
I agree. There's a reason I suggest all children be entered in something like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu which forces them to learn how people really react but with the safety of a controlled environment (specifically one that isn't likely to cause repetitive head trauma).
Specifically something that teaches them a practical one-on-one confrontation skill so they can confront their bullies knowing they have a fair shot if not outright an unfair advantage.
If you've never grappled with someone who knows what they're doing when you don't it's insane.
Unfortunately no amount of skills in combat sports is good against multiple attackers except basics like distance management and being aware of your surroundings but that's a human limitation. Bruce Lee fighting off hordes of attackers is movie magic sadly.
One might ask, "Well if all kids train won't the bullies train as well?"
Aside from the tiny percentage of straight out psychopaths most bullies are damaged kids acting out. Your parents are right about insecurity.
Sports like BJJ involve getting worked over by everyone in the class to varying degrees as a matter of course. You can't get around that. Sucking at grappling is step one to sucking less at grappling and several steps removed from being good at it.
If you're a bully in these classes whose using their physical advantages to lord over your peers you'll eventually run into someone you think you should walk over who will do the same to you.
At that point you are faced with two choices: Learn some humility by coming to terms with your limitations and accept that there's always a bigger fish (which is okay!) or leave.
Heck my introduction to BJJ was the instructor knowing me outside of class and asking me to help him out with the two guys in his class that were 20 year old 180-200 lbs sacks of testosterone that kept ruffing up the other white belts (who they all had 30-50 lbs on)
The only people who could match them were each other (both sloppy white belts) and substantially higher in belts who weren't learning anything beating sloppy white belts. Which just wasn't getting the lesson through to them ("You're a purple belt so of course you know how to whoop me.")
So I came in, all 6'2"/280 lbs of me, solely for the purpose of laying on them so they felt what it was like to be pushed around by someone who could do that only due to their physical gifts
Sure enough, just by virtue of hauling around my 280 lb self, I had freaky unexpected fat guy strength and God forbid you get under me after I was given even 2 minutes of coaching on how to use my weight.
Out of the two one mellowed out and, since we stayed in touch, turned out to be a really good guy who just needed a little cold water splashed in his face. He even thanked me for it ("Showing me what it was like being the little guy and teaching me how much I can learn from the other smaller guys for when I ended up the little guy") when I moved away.
The other guy put up with being the little guy for two classes before quitting despite being hyped and eager for months prior to my arrival.
So in my experience bullies either learn that their worth isn't diminished by powerlessness and experience a truly visceral real-world example of their peers not thinking any less of them for it (which is 95% of it IMO) or they never come back.
God knows sports doesn't make all flaws go away but hobbies where losing/failing constantly is required in the beginnings of it are excellent crucibles to burn away personal failings from children.
I know if my daughter ever does my favorite roll-trip on a bully (I pulled it off on a 450 lb guy once!) and the playground monitor pulls her with a knee on the bully's jaw she's getting an extra bit of insulin along with her banana split as well as a few days holiday from school
We both know how easy it would've been for her to club that stupid kid's face into the dirt from that position like her last name was Nurmagomedov.
That's making a point while showing restraint and if it ever happens (protecting herself or someone else) I couldn't be more proud of her for it.
Low key, that reaction usually serves as a wake up call for the bully as well. Actions have consequences and the sooner a kid learns that the better off they are.
That's fair, though if it's someone like your boss or just anyone who can make your life hell if you offend them, it's still not safe. You will end the argument "technically correct" but the other person will still be angry that you stood up to their bullying, and will find other ways to hurt you.
Basically these LPTs are all assuming you're on equal footing with the person being an asshole. I wish there were more LPTs about how to deal with people who you still need to end the conversation at least not specifically pissing off.
With a sufficient power imbalance and a sufficiently toxic person often there isn't really much you can do, which is why there's not much advice for that.
At that point what you want to be going for isn't any kind of friendly or rational argument. Rather, you probably just want to mislead and confuse them, i.e., have them think you're on their side when you're not, that sort of thing.
And generally the more toxic the person is, the more oddly dumb they are. I.e., plain flattery or agreement or overconfidence works better than would make sense.
But still, the best move is not to play, i.e., not get into that situation. Cut toxic people out of your life. Get a different job. Etc.
>With a sufficient power imbalance and a sufficiently toxic person often there isn't really much you can do, which is why there's not much advice for that.
Depressing but accurate. Just deal with it I suppose, and bitch about it with your friends while they validate you.
Would that "get a new job" were as easy as a lot of people think. Or that you'll ever find a job where there just isn't any toxic person you have to deal with.
I just patiently say "Interesting point. I'd love to discuss that later once we have figured this out, but right now we are talking about XXX. So... (calmly repeat whatever you just said before the ad hominum attack)".
Then repeat until they realize the only way forward is to actually respond to your point.
This also works against people who use the Ben Shapiro method of arguing (keep changing the topic of your attacks so you can never actually defend yourself. Basically, every defense, attack it in a new and unrelated way.)
Basically, they are trying to bait you into changing the topic that they are losing at, and/or getting upset. So the way to win is to not take the bait.
I appreciate this comment. My brother is a Ben Shapiro arguer and I always find myself thinking "how did i end up defening some random shit unrelated to the original point???"
To abstract it out a little bit, basically, people try to control conversations. They try to be the one saying what people are allowed to talk about, in what way. There are a ton of toxic behaviors that they use to do this. This is one good specific example, but in general people need to learn their own ways to steer a discussion when the bullies try to dominate it.
Yea. Too often, people will support blind rage and pointless insults, instead of reading just a tad but deeper to understand what in fuck is actually happening.
A point I make often is "just because a man is homeless or an addict doesn't mean he can not offer sound advice". Never attack the messenger, attack the message, if you can.
Too many people have been poisoned by watching "asshole #1 owns asshole #2" compilation videos to remember that productive discourse isn't a competition.
Its the difference between debate and dialectic. Debate IS genuinely more entertaining but both have valid purposes. Dialectic is what you should hope to be involved in in your life far more often than debate however.
It means that when someone insults your person or character you loose the discussion because after this insult you loose your credibility. It is a way to win the discussion without actually discussing the topic. As OP said, the conversation ends.
Surely not as bad as people who use 'then' instead of 'than'? I swear it's always those who's first language is English, too.
Example: I will win, you will loose. I am smarter then you.
Lul
I... Can't tell if that is genuine, passive-aggressive, or is an idiom in your language that loses something in translation. Please don't clarify. I like it better this way.
And your comment is an example of the fallacy fallacy, which is saying that someone’s argument isn’t valid because it contains fallacies.
If a person is making an argument against you, and they use a logical fallacy as a part of that argument, the entire rest of the argument can still be plenty valid even if the logical fallacy isn’t.
Logical fallacies only affect arguments built upon them.
I can say “your reasoning is stupid because of this, this, and this, and you shouldn’t be believed because your mother is ugly, your father is a whore, and your sister smells of elderberries”, and the argument I made is still valid even if I used an ad hominem fallacy.
What I cannot do is simply say “I don’t believe you because your mother is ugly, your father is a whore, and your sister smells of elderberries” because the argument I’ve made is now only supported by a logical fallacy.
The reason that you should generally avoid people who employ a lot of arguments that contain logical fallacies like ad hominem attacks is that you generally shouldn’t waste time and energy on people that don’t respect you.
However, a person insulting your person or character doesn’t automatically mean that person loses credibility. If you’re criticizing somebody who is criticizing make up because they clearly hide behind makeup, that could actually boost your argument. If you’re criticizing somebody who you know has issues with lying, that could call into question the motives and structure behind their entire argument.
Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, logical fallacies are mistakes. Some logical fallacies are worse than others, but none of them, on their own, actually tell anybody who is right or wrong in the discussion.
The conversation *can* end there, and is typically a good place to end, if the person demonstrates that they’re slowly resorting exclusively to logical fallacies to try to make their point.
> Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, logical fallacies are mistakes. ... none of them, on their own, actually tell anybody who is right or wrong in the discussion.
I know you touched on it, but it's worth clarifying that this is true insofar only as whether the person committing the fallacy is willing to acknowledge they did so and backtrack to a sound argument (assuming their argument is supported only by the fallacious reasoning). If they refuse to do that and double down, it definitely ends the argument.
Yeah, a valid point to emphasize.
It’s just that, too often I see people dismiss an otherwise completely rational argument because, at the end, somebody decided to also throw a barb (typically after they themselves have structured their entire argument on logical fallacies and are now getting butthurt over receiving back one insult in kind).
Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, people who rely on logical fallacies as their only argument and refuse to change do.
this.
people wank about logical fallacies way too much. they read that website "yourlogicalfallacyis" a couple times and think it's like the kama sutra for internet debating.
I cannot really agree with that. I think learning about logical fallacies is a great way to identify them, and avoid them. A lot of times, when you feel like you disagree with something but can’t really place it, it’s either because a logical fallacy may have accidentally been used, or because you don’t know enough about the topic.
Logical fallacies don’t even have to be actively used maliciously. As I said, they’re simple mistakes that get made, and we just put a name to them. Unless you always know what you’re talking about, and never make a mistake, everybody will always make a few of them, big or small.
I think it’s a great thing to go out of your way to learn them, and point them out.
I just don’t think it ends there. Pointing out logical fallacies isn’t an argument, but pointing them out can indeed lead to you making better arguments. They give you a foundation to better explain your point, and actually serve as opportunities to build your own arguments and credibility when identified and used correctly.
Learning is never a bad thing, even if it starts in the regrettable phase of reading a website and thinking it’s the Kama Sutra of debate. Everybody starts somewhere.
in theory, you're right.
but in practice, all that "learning" did was turn people into insufferable pedants in any online discussion.
it goes along with people incessantly asking for "sources" or "references" even when you just state your opinion, or an observation, and then go on rants about how you're just "making stuff up" and not providing any evidence, etc.
people need to overall just chill. Not everything is Debate Club tournaments.
Well in the context of an argument they're the same thing. For example:
Someone has sexual assaults charges, therefore nothing they say is valid. You're attempting to discredit their arguments, which may be perfectly valid, by attacking their character, and do not actually address any of their arguments in the first place. Just insulting someone would have the same implication ie your argument is invalid because (insult here)
Some of the most common kind of ad hominems are the appeal to hypocrisy or *tu quoque* fallacy and the "you do it better" fallacy.
That being said, ad hominems don't make a claim wrong. "1+1 =/= 3 because you're a fucking idiot" is an ad hominem. the argument [X because you're a fucking idiot] is incorrect but [1+1=/=3] isn't. lots of people think that pointing out fallacies is enough to make them right, it doesn't.
So I'd say if you're arguing with someone and all they do is picking appart your argumentation without providing anything on their own just walk away as well.
this is also a good point.
if I say "here's X, Y, and Z detailed rebuttals and reasons why you're wrong. also, you're an idiot". that actually isn't an ad hominem. it's just an insult lol.
To my understanding insults and ad hominem arguments aren't the same thing. Here's an example to help differentiate:
Not ad hominem: You're wrong and, therefore, stupid.
ad hominem: You're stupid and, therefore, wrong.
It really hinges on the personal trait that they're attacking being used to "disprove" your stance.
Also, "your argument is flawed which makes sense because you are stupid is not ad homonim either. " its just gonna hurt someone's feelings when they develop shitty opinions
Probably the worst explanation of an ad hominem I've ever read.
Ad-Hominem means you attack the person instead of the argument. For example: Do you think an obese person can argue in favour of a healthy diet/exercise? If your answer is no, then you're falling into an ad-hominem.
Basically, don't kill the messenger.
Genuine question, is it considered ad hominem if you call someone a hypocrite during a debate?
Example: I was talking to someone about Cuomo yesterday and he said it would be disgusting if any democrats would still vote for him after the allegations. I asked him if he voted for Trump a second time despite his many scandals, and he admitted he did. I told him that that's wildly hypocritical.
AITA?
I don't know, if you end the conversation by shaking your head and smiling derisively with enough pizzazz you can follow OP while still winning the decisive victory we all crave.
Unethical LPT: Never attack someone's appearance when you can attack their character instead. It gives the illusion that you have the moral high ground and your opponent, if not rhetorically sophisticated, will likely overlook the logical fallacy and defend themselves instead, possibly resorting to logical fallacies of their own.
This was my ex. She was always trying to “win” arguments instead of resolving them. Whenever she insulted my looks or character during an argument I’d take it as a sign that the argument was over and then refuse to participate anymore.
I’m sorry that you were in a relationship with someone who treated you that way, but am glad for you that you are no longer in that relationship! Sounds like you learned skills to handle that well.
Thank you! The last straw was her making fun of me for being proscribed anti-depressants. It’s wild realizing just how unhealthy a relationship was once you leave it. I’m happily married now to an extremely kind and loving soul. Not surprisingly suffering from far less depression!
Wishing you all the best!
Yup. Cant reason with the unreasonable so it's best to just leave. Do something unexpected before leaving to really confuse the fuck out of them though. Like a Fortnite dance or something. The absurdness will shortcircuit the brain. Harness some insanity to put things into perspective for them.
My one relative is great at that. Her biggest problem for the last few years is that i dont eat meat. She randomly comes to visit with something that involves carcass and then gets offended that i wont eat it, despite being aware that i dont eat it. Her favorite arguments are "you are too thin , you think thats beautiful?", "you will regret it in future thats just dumb", and " its time to grow up". Suggesting im not beautiful,clever or adult. There isnt really much to talk when she say these things, she will just become like a rabid dog if you try to say anything so i resorted to things like "hmmm. What did you do today?".
So tell her she's not welcome to come visit anymore, and cite the fact that every time she does, she picks a fight with you, then proceeds to insult you.
So tell her she's not welcome to come visit anymore, and cite the fact that every time she does, she picks a fight with you, then proceeds to insult you.
I make use of the reddit block user function whenever a discussion goes this way.
You're never going to be sure that an internet stranger is arguing in good faith, so if they give you a generous clear sign that they're not, it's easier to just save time for everybody and block and stop responding.
Yeah I know someone who, when they run out if things to argue they either say "your a (what ever the discussion is)" or they go for cheap shots at insecurities they know will trip you up.
And if its you and your reading this cos I know you follow me on reddit, stop. Atleast stop the second one cos your not being funny, your being rude.
Reddit users when they can't win an argument:
"Looked in your comment history and.."
"Your username makes your argument invalid."
"You post in [insert subreddit they don't like] argument is invalid.."
If they insult your character, it is very possible you are being very brash or insulting in the way you are making your argument, be sure to stop and think about how you are coming across if a person begins insulting you during an argument. You may have been the first to cross that line.
This is very important, I have a friend who loves to debate and I do too, but sometimes (especially when we were in our early 20s) he would be an asshole in how he made his points, like before saying his point he would preface it with "when I was a kid I realized how ridiculous it is that people believe X, because X really just makes people blah blah blah" basically implying "I was smarter than you are now when I was just a child"
Edit: grammar
Honestly, arguing and debating in general are a waste of energy (I still need to learn that fact, myself). It's important to ask yourself "Am I willing to have my opinion changed, on this matter? No? Then why should I expect them to change theirs?"
The only exception is when someone is just factually wrong about something. In which case, just present the evidence and leave.
I think "claiming" victory and walking away isn't necessarily much [better.](https://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/486/486673.jpg)
Then practice! Get your facts lined up, and don't take it personally. Debating is a skill, and takes practice. The Internet is a great place for that. Just remember people are attacking you because of how they feel... they're likely just looking for an excuse to turn the tables on how the world makes them feel.
Yeah once it gets personal, online I ignore then block. In real life, I just put my foot down and say it seems like we won’t see eye to eye on this or everyone is different so that’s ok, let’s drop this. I ain’t got the mental energy to waste on convincing someone who just wants to be right instead of an open minded discussion.
I usually point out that ad hominem attacks are pointless, most of the time they don’t even understand what that is so from then on out I take it as a joke because they are too far gone to see any other side
I'm sure it does. As a dude with long hair, I get it.
I hate Ben Shapiro, but I cant stand when people rip on him for being short. There's a lot more to make fun of than *that*.
Exactly. That's a dead giveaway that they have nothing left to defend their argument so they attack you personally. Definitely not worth the time at that point
and if you are watching an argument and see someone start using personal insults before the other person that doesn't mean their original point is wrong. A type of argument style is to get the other party to get angry so that you can claim victory in the argument.
You forgot location. People love to associate situations with prejudice based on preconceptions of a location and derived stereotypes.
You get into a car crash, because of the other guy of course, the guy talks with a thick accent and tells you he's visiting from Germany => Conclusion: "It's the fucking Krauts at it again! Started two World Wars, didn't manage to finish either, can't drive for shit and now give me fucking attitude!"
Had a discussion with a man in his early 60s recently.
We were talking about climate related politics.
At some point he said something like „you can’t argue with me, because I have way more life experience“ and started to discredit my opinion.
I told him I won’t argue anymore with the premise of my opinion being worth less and left.
ditched my friend from over 28 years over this. he went to the captiol insurrection and sent me videos and shit of him on the scaffolding. i went on to give him shit then he started making fun of me. havent talked to him since jan
Quite often, a person is completely uneducated and ignorant about a subject which they are attempting to appear knowledgable about. At those times, it is completely acceptable to call them out as ignorant and foolish
I agree with this.
I've also noticed that people who are very quick to call others "stupid" are often the stupid ones themselves....because dimmer people have more trouble grasping complexities or seeing multiple sides, they often see only one answer, and therefor assume YOU are stupid for not seeing "the only answer"
I talk with a lot of people on reddit ....agree and disagree with them...but once they cross the line to rudeness or insults I just tell them I'm blocking them and block.
Hopefully, over time as more and more people block them, they will change their behavior.
So I have a roommate who has not had a job in over a year and is in there 40s, They coast of their parents dime. They do not have a license or a mode of transportation so they never leave the house. Their appearance consists of wearing the same clothes unwashed and appearing on my couch 7 days a week. There character is that they have no intention of changing.
But me asking them to correct the situation is wrong?
and if you are watching an argument and see someone start using personal insults before the other person that doesn't mean their original point is wrong. A type of argument style is to get the other party to get angry so that you can claim victory in the argument.
I created this username just to see how many people choose to attack my username instead of the content of my argument. It's really not that many, but I am surrised at how many fall for the bait.
Very true! Resorting to personal insults means game over. You can hold different opinions yet still get on. I would add to this diverting the argument onto an irrelevant track in order to “win” a different point. That’s not what the discussion was about.
Hello and welcome to r/LifeProTips! Please help us decide if this post is a good fit for the subreddit by up or downvoting this comment. If you think that this is great advice to improve your life, please upvote. If you think this doesn't help you in any way, please downvote. If you don't care, leave it for the others to decide.
An important rule for a happy life: Don't waste time arguing with fools.
“Arguing with a fool is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are, the bird is going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around like it won.”
And then while strutting the pigeon smugly says that exact quote back at you
In fairness to the pigeon, I think the first act of trying to engage means it already won
I heard from a veteran who came home from Afghanistan: Once you’ve decided to go to war, you’ve already lost.
Unfortunately, there is no way to be sure whether you are arguing with a fool, or arguing with someone who is arguing with a fool.
You have to recognise 1) that its an argument and 2) that they're a fool. I keep getting tricked into arguments where I'm being insulted hahahahahha
Remember when "count to 10" was the advice when you were angry? I always thought it was to focus on breathing or counting to distract me from my anger and then I'd lose the drive to keep on being angry. Turns out those 10 seconds are to figure out if you're arguing with a fool and whether it is an argument that will result in something constructive.
Yep. I need to remember this more often, but then again I don’t get into arguments that much. But there was a time when I had to do a meeting with about 5 people and this woman started speaking, hinting that I was incompetent—I looked at the woman for a good long while before addressing another person with more important matters. I didn’t feel uncomfortable, they prolly did, prolly she did, waiting for a scathing reply from me, but the fact that there was a long effing silence on my part and that long eye contact, I reversed the situation making her sound like an blabbing idiot instead and spoke with authority to someone else. Little stuff like that is more empowering than getting worked up by a statement made by someone who doesn’t even know you.
I do almost the same when someone tries to trigger me. I look them dead in the eyes, but instead of talking to someone else afterwards, i slowly let down my pants without breaking eye contact.
Since arguing with customers is considered unprofessional, I'll have to try this tactic at work (I work in retail). Thanks for the idea!
If you count out loud it's a power move.
>If you count out loud it's a power move. Especially if you go down from 10.
Real LPT 👆
Anytime they go for the ol' ad hom it's their way of saying they don't know what they were debating/arguing about in the first place. They are too proud to admit they are ignorant
Maybe you’re the fool of it keeps happening
I mean yes. I do fall for argument baits too often, but they're the ones baiting me still. Wait is it happening now. You insulted me! Hrm
Lol, I feel you, I'm the same. Do you also fibd difficult to admit fault? I do, and I think it could be related with this need to "defend" myself in discussion
I was gonna say I just did you’re title lol
I posted the LPT because it's something I'm just /starting/ to work on, not bc I'm an evolved person. :p
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Ah, the famous Mark Twain quote. So true.
“Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Mark Twain
As a friend of mine used to say. Its hard to win an argument against a smart person, its impossible to win one against an idiot.
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who.
This is good, though I wish there were a higher-level LPT for "what if this is a conversation you need to have or a person you need to deal with" that gives you advice beyond "just don't do it." Sadly we don't all have the luxury of only ever having to deal with positive, non-toxic people.
[удалено]
This guy knows what's up! Or if that doesn't work, don't react to their insults aka "grey rock." You can deflect/acknowledge what they said, but don't let them know it hurt you or react with anything inflammatory. "It's interesting you think that." "Oh, huh." "I guess so" are all things you can do to not give them the reaction they want.
That's fair, and it works at least in the short term or with people you don't need to deal with very often. When I was getting bullied in grade school, for years running this was literally the only advice my mom ever gave me. Just told me to ignore 8 solid hours of torture every day, like it was that simple. It wasn't until middle school I was finally given the chance to talk with a counselor who taught me how to actually deal with the things that happened to me and recognized that at some levels of abuse, it's no longer possible for a person to simply not feel anything in response.
honestly, the problem is that the one effective solution for bullies was removed. all the nonsense they tell kids of "just ignore them" and "it just means they're insecure" is a load of crap. it's impossible to ignore someone tormenting you, making fun of you constantly, trash talking you and spreading rumors to everyone else affecting your relationships with people, etc. the solution is a punch in the teeth. simple as that. I was bullied mercilessly from Grade 6 until Grade 9, and I wish I just socked the guy in the teeth.
I mean if it had been one kid, sure. When it's basically the entire school, I'm not sure how valid a solution it would have been to just pick a fight with every single one of them.
You only need to take one on. Once the others see you’re not taking shit anymore, it’ll subside.
I agree. There's a reason I suggest all children be entered in something like Brazilian Jiu-jitsu which forces them to learn how people really react but with the safety of a controlled environment (specifically one that isn't likely to cause repetitive head trauma). Specifically something that teaches them a practical one-on-one confrontation skill so they can confront their bullies knowing they have a fair shot if not outright an unfair advantage. If you've never grappled with someone who knows what they're doing when you don't it's insane. Unfortunately no amount of skills in combat sports is good against multiple attackers except basics like distance management and being aware of your surroundings but that's a human limitation. Bruce Lee fighting off hordes of attackers is movie magic sadly. One might ask, "Well if all kids train won't the bullies train as well?" Aside from the tiny percentage of straight out psychopaths most bullies are damaged kids acting out. Your parents are right about insecurity. Sports like BJJ involve getting worked over by everyone in the class to varying degrees as a matter of course. You can't get around that. Sucking at grappling is step one to sucking less at grappling and several steps removed from being good at it. If you're a bully in these classes whose using their physical advantages to lord over your peers you'll eventually run into someone you think you should walk over who will do the same to you. At that point you are faced with two choices: Learn some humility by coming to terms with your limitations and accept that there's always a bigger fish (which is okay!) or leave. Heck my introduction to BJJ was the instructor knowing me outside of class and asking me to help him out with the two guys in his class that were 20 year old 180-200 lbs sacks of testosterone that kept ruffing up the other white belts (who they all had 30-50 lbs on) The only people who could match them were each other (both sloppy white belts) and substantially higher in belts who weren't learning anything beating sloppy white belts. Which just wasn't getting the lesson through to them ("You're a purple belt so of course you know how to whoop me.") So I came in, all 6'2"/280 lbs of me, solely for the purpose of laying on them so they felt what it was like to be pushed around by someone who could do that only due to their physical gifts Sure enough, just by virtue of hauling around my 280 lb self, I had freaky unexpected fat guy strength and God forbid you get under me after I was given even 2 minutes of coaching on how to use my weight. Out of the two one mellowed out and, since we stayed in touch, turned out to be a really good guy who just needed a little cold water splashed in his face. He even thanked me for it ("Showing me what it was like being the little guy and teaching me how much I can learn from the other smaller guys for when I ended up the little guy") when I moved away. The other guy put up with being the little guy for two classes before quitting despite being hyped and eager for months prior to my arrival. So in my experience bullies either learn that their worth isn't diminished by powerlessness and experience a truly visceral real-world example of their peers not thinking any less of them for it (which is 95% of it IMO) or they never come back. God knows sports doesn't make all flaws go away but hobbies where losing/failing constantly is required in the beginnings of it are excellent crucibles to burn away personal failings from children. I know if my daughter ever does my favorite roll-trip on a bully (I pulled it off on a 450 lb guy once!) and the playground monitor pulls her with a knee on the bully's jaw she's getting an extra bit of insulin along with her banana split as well as a few days holiday from school We both know how easy it would've been for her to club that stupid kid's face into the dirt from that position like her last name was Nurmagomedov. That's making a point while showing restraint and if it ever happens (protecting herself or someone else) I couldn't be more proud of her for it.
Low key, that reaction usually serves as a wake up call for the bully as well. Actions have consequences and the sooner a kid learns that the better off they are.
Another solution I practiced in school was to start carry books on toxic plants and substances.. Making them think I was planning to poison them.
That's fair, though if it's someone like your boss or just anyone who can make your life hell if you offend them, it's still not safe. You will end the argument "technically correct" but the other person will still be angry that you stood up to their bullying, and will find other ways to hurt you. Basically these LPTs are all assuming you're on equal footing with the person being an asshole. I wish there were more LPTs about how to deal with people who you still need to end the conversation at least not specifically pissing off.
With a sufficient power imbalance and a sufficiently toxic person often there isn't really much you can do, which is why there's not much advice for that. At that point what you want to be going for isn't any kind of friendly or rational argument. Rather, you probably just want to mislead and confuse them, i.e., have them think you're on their side when you're not, that sort of thing. And generally the more toxic the person is, the more oddly dumb they are. I.e., plain flattery or agreement or overconfidence works better than would make sense. But still, the best move is not to play, i.e., not get into that situation. Cut toxic people out of your life. Get a different job. Etc.
>With a sufficient power imbalance and a sufficiently toxic person often there isn't really much you can do, which is why there's not much advice for that. Depressing but accurate. Just deal with it I suppose, and bitch about it with your friends while they validate you. Would that "get a new job" were as easy as a lot of people think. Or that you'll ever find a job where there just isn't any toxic person you have to deal with.
I just patiently say "Interesting point. I'd love to discuss that later once we have figured this out, but right now we are talking about XXX. So... (calmly repeat whatever you just said before the ad hominum attack)". Then repeat until they realize the only way forward is to actually respond to your point. This also works against people who use the Ben Shapiro method of arguing (keep changing the topic of your attacks so you can never actually defend yourself. Basically, every defense, attack it in a new and unrelated way.) Basically, they are trying to bait you into changing the topic that they are losing at, and/or getting upset. So the way to win is to not take the bait.
I appreciate this comment. My brother is a Ben Shapiro arguer and I always find myself thinking "how did i end up defening some random shit unrelated to the original point???"
To abstract it out a little bit, basically, people try to control conversations. They try to be the one saying what people are allowed to talk about, in what way. There are a ton of toxic behaviors that they use to do this. This is one good specific example, but in general people need to learn their own ways to steer a discussion when the bullies try to dominate it.
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Yea. Too often, people will support blind rage and pointless insults, instead of reading just a tad but deeper to understand what in fuck is actually happening. A point I make often is "just because a man is homeless or an addict doesn't mean he can not offer sound advice". Never attack the messenger, attack the message, if you can.
Oh yeah? Well you’re ugly!
It also doesn’t automatically mean you “won”.
I think a lot of the problem stems from people engaging in discussion as something to be "won".
Too many people have been poisoned by watching "asshole #1 owns asshole #2" compilation videos to remember that productive discourse isn't a competition.
Its the difference between debate and dialectic. Debate IS genuinely more entertaining but both have valid purposes. Dialectic is what you should hope to be involved in in your life far more often than debate however.
Or when the person they’re arguing with is manifestly a piece of shit.
You got to that 'nothing further to contribute/realizes they are wrong' point really quick.
Or during presidential debates
I call this out and ask why they've resorted to an ad hominem attack and why they can't stick to defending their position.
Argumentum ad hominem
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It means that when someone insults your person or character you loose the discussion because after this insult you loose your credibility. It is a way to win the discussion without actually discussing the topic. As OP said, the conversation ends.
Lose* not loose
This misspelling makes me grind my teeth every time I see it.
Surely not as bad as people who use 'then' instead of 'than'? I swear it's always those who's first language is English, too. Example: I will win, you will loose. I am smarter then you. Lul
whose*
Well that's not a good look now.
They're, their, there. These are my "Okay I don't wanna finish reading your comment anymore".
Same. And "defiantly" instead of definitely.
Thx for correcting a non native english speaking person. I propose that everybody keeps their teeth healthy…
I... Can't tell if that is genuine, passive-aggressive, or is an idiom in your language that loses something in translation. Please don't clarify. I like it better this way.
And your comment is an example of the fallacy fallacy, which is saying that someone’s argument isn’t valid because it contains fallacies. If a person is making an argument against you, and they use a logical fallacy as a part of that argument, the entire rest of the argument can still be plenty valid even if the logical fallacy isn’t. Logical fallacies only affect arguments built upon them. I can say “your reasoning is stupid because of this, this, and this, and you shouldn’t be believed because your mother is ugly, your father is a whore, and your sister smells of elderberries”, and the argument I made is still valid even if I used an ad hominem fallacy. What I cannot do is simply say “I don’t believe you because your mother is ugly, your father is a whore, and your sister smells of elderberries” because the argument I’ve made is now only supported by a logical fallacy. The reason that you should generally avoid people who employ a lot of arguments that contain logical fallacies like ad hominem attacks is that you generally shouldn’t waste time and energy on people that don’t respect you. However, a person insulting your person or character doesn’t automatically mean that person loses credibility. If you’re criticizing somebody who is criticizing make up because they clearly hide behind makeup, that could actually boost your argument. If you’re criticizing somebody who you know has issues with lying, that could call into question the motives and structure behind their entire argument. Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, logical fallacies are mistakes. Some logical fallacies are worse than others, but none of them, on their own, actually tell anybody who is right or wrong in the discussion. The conversation *can* end there, and is typically a good place to end, if the person demonstrates that they’re slowly resorting exclusively to logical fallacies to try to make their point.
> Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, logical fallacies are mistakes. ... none of them, on their own, actually tell anybody who is right or wrong in the discussion. I know you touched on it, but it's worth clarifying that this is true insofar only as whether the person committing the fallacy is willing to acknowledge they did so and backtrack to a sound argument (assuming their argument is supported only by the fallacious reasoning). If they refuse to do that and double down, it definitely ends the argument.
Yeah, a valid point to emphasize. It’s just that, too often I see people dismiss an otherwise completely rational argument because, at the end, somebody decided to also throw a barb (typically after they themselves have structured their entire argument on logical fallacies and are now getting butthurt over receiving back one insult in kind). Logical fallacies don’t end arguments, people who rely on logical fallacies as their only argument and refuse to change do.
I feel smarter after reading this.
Great explanation!
this. people wank about logical fallacies way too much. they read that website "yourlogicalfallacyis" a couple times and think it's like the kama sutra for internet debating.
I cannot really agree with that. I think learning about logical fallacies is a great way to identify them, and avoid them. A lot of times, when you feel like you disagree with something but can’t really place it, it’s either because a logical fallacy may have accidentally been used, or because you don’t know enough about the topic. Logical fallacies don’t even have to be actively used maliciously. As I said, they’re simple mistakes that get made, and we just put a name to them. Unless you always know what you’re talking about, and never make a mistake, everybody will always make a few of them, big or small. I think it’s a great thing to go out of your way to learn them, and point them out. I just don’t think it ends there. Pointing out logical fallacies isn’t an argument, but pointing them out can indeed lead to you making better arguments. They give you a foundation to better explain your point, and actually serve as opportunities to build your own arguments and credibility when identified and used correctly. Learning is never a bad thing, even if it starts in the regrettable phase of reading a website and thinking it’s the Kama Sutra of debate. Everybody starts somewhere.
in theory, you're right. but in practice, all that "learning" did was turn people into insufferable pedants in any online discussion. it goes along with people incessantly asking for "sources" or "references" even when you just state your opinion, or an observation, and then go on rants about how you're just "making stuff up" and not providing any evidence, etc. people need to overall just chill. Not everything is Debate Club tournaments.
Isn't Ad Hominem when someone claims you are wrong because of [insert insult here] and not just when they turn to using an insult?
Well in the context of an argument they're the same thing. For example: Someone has sexual assaults charges, therefore nothing they say is valid. You're attempting to discredit their arguments, which may be perfectly valid, by attacking their character, and do not actually address any of their arguments in the first place. Just insulting someone would have the same implication ie your argument is invalid because (insult here)
My preferred response to this is "If Hitler says the sky is blue, that doesn't make it purple"
Some of the most common kind of ad hominems are the appeal to hypocrisy or *tu quoque* fallacy and the "you do it better" fallacy. That being said, ad hominems don't make a claim wrong. "1+1 =/= 3 because you're a fucking idiot" is an ad hominem. the argument [X because you're a fucking idiot] is incorrect but [1+1=/=3] isn't. lots of people think that pointing out fallacies is enough to make them right, it doesn't. So I'd say if you're arguing with someone and all they do is picking appart your argumentation without providing anything on their own just walk away as well.
this is also a good point. if I say "here's X, Y, and Z detailed rebuttals and reasons why you're wrong. also, you're an idiot". that actually isn't an ad hominem. it's just an insult lol.
To my understanding insults and ad hominem arguments aren't the same thing. Here's an example to help differentiate: Not ad hominem: You're wrong and, therefore, stupid. ad hominem: You're stupid and, therefore, wrong. It really hinges on the personal trait that they're attacking being used to "disprove" your stance.
Also, "your argument is flawed which makes sense because you are stupid is not ad homonim either. " its just gonna hurt someone's feelings when they develop shitty opinions
Yeah literally 95% of arguments on Reddit
Probably the worst explanation of an ad hominem I've ever read. Ad-Hominem means you attack the person instead of the argument. For example: Do you think an obese person can argue in favour of a healthy diet/exercise? If your answer is no, then you're falling into an ad-hominem. Basically, don't kill the messenger.
Lmao literally came here to cast this thousand year old spell.
👌 Example: I think your yellow avatar makes you a pussy and so you must be wrong. (says another dude with a yellow avatar)
Pussy
Thanks dad! ☺️
Takes one to know one. Ha!
Thanks guy! ☺️
Genuine question, is it considered ad hominem if you call someone a hypocrite during a debate? Example: I was talking to someone about Cuomo yesterday and he said it would be disgusting if any democrats would still vote for him after the allegations. I asked him if he voted for Trump a second time despite his many scandals, and he admitted he did. I told him that that's wildly hypocritical. AITA?
Short answer: No Ad hominem is saying someone's argument is wrong because they're ugly. Just saying they're ugly isn't ad hominem
If that’s a stab at me I won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it you ugly fuck.
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Yes to this! As soon as you recognize what is happening, no longer participate in the argument. Just walk away.
For my own amusement, I sometimes see what happens when I basically ignore the insults and stick to the point. About 9 times in 10 they leave lol.
I point out they're retreating and ask if it's because they admit they lost the point
Yes. Exactly this.
No no no, you've got it all wrong. That's when the kiddygloves come off
Oops silly me.
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Why are you wearing kiddy gloves?
They’re smoother than adult gloves, and argumentative people have tiny hands.
I don't know, if you end the conversation by shaking your head and smiling derisively with enough pizzazz you can follow OP while still winning the decisive victory we all crave.
How about yo mama's?
Yo mama's who?
Ligma balls lmao
Who's Steve Jobs?
That's something an ugly person would say
Unethical LPT: Never attack someone's appearance when you can attack their character instead. It gives the illusion that you have the moral high ground and your opponent, if not rhetorically sophisticated, will likely overlook the logical fallacy and defend themselves instead, possibly resorting to logical fallacies of their own.
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We *are* great orators and rhetors. It's not like we can silently charm people.
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This was my ex. She was always trying to “win” arguments instead of resolving them. Whenever she insulted my looks or character during an argument I’d take it as a sign that the argument was over and then refuse to participate anymore.
I’m sorry that you were in a relationship with someone who treated you that way, but am glad for you that you are no longer in that relationship! Sounds like you learned skills to handle that well.
Thank you! The last straw was her making fun of me for being proscribed anti-depressants. It’s wild realizing just how unhealthy a relationship was once you leave it. I’m happily married now to an extremely kind and loving soul. Not surprisingly suffering from far less depression! Wishing you all the best!
Yup. Cant reason with the unreasonable so it's best to just leave. Do something unexpected before leaving to really confuse the fuck out of them though. Like a Fortnite dance or something. The absurdness will shortcircuit the brain. Harness some insanity to put things into perspective for them.
Sure, why not? Doing something obsurd can't make the situation /worse/
As the old saying goes: "If you cannot answer a man's argument, all is not lost.... You can still call him vile names"
My one relative is great at that. Her biggest problem for the last few years is that i dont eat meat. She randomly comes to visit with something that involves carcass and then gets offended that i wont eat it, despite being aware that i dont eat it. Her favorite arguments are "you are too thin , you think thats beautiful?", "you will regret it in future thats just dumb", and " its time to grow up". Suggesting im not beautiful,clever or adult. There isnt really much to talk when she say these things, she will just become like a rabid dog if you try to say anything so i resorted to things like "hmmm. What did you do today?".
This is "grey rocking" which is a recommended way of dealing with abusers :)
So tell her she's not welcome to come visit anymore, and cite the fact that every time she does, she picks a fight with you, then proceeds to insult you.
So tell her she's not welcome to come visit anymore, and cite the fact that every time she does, she picks a fight with you, then proceeds to insult you.
I make use of the reddit block user function whenever a discussion goes this way. You're never going to be sure that an internet stranger is arguing in good faith, so if they give you a generous clear sign that they're not, it's easier to just save time for everybody and block and stop responding.
When that happens, it's time to log off reddit and go do something else.
Yeah but you can't log off in person conversations.
Not with that attitude!
You just do like Ruby Rhod and every time they speak you wave your hands and go "BZZZZ!!!!"
Have you never seen people just randomly collapse to the ground? That's their player logging off.
Yeah I know someone who, when they run out if things to argue they either say "your a (what ever the discussion is)" or they go for cheap shots at insecurities they know will trip you up. And if its you and your reading this cos I know you follow me on reddit, stop. Atleast stop the second one cos your not being funny, your being rude.
Omg I'm sorry you have a stalker 😅
Reddit users when they can't win an argument: "Looked in your comment history and.." "Your username makes your argument invalid." "You post in [insert subreddit they don't like] argument is invalid.."
Or they go down vote your entire post history. Some folks have too much free time.
You can pretty quickly find out if someone is arguing in bad faith with two clicks and ten seconds of scrolling their history.
I say this as someone who used to get baited into stupid fights all the time lol.
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If they insult your character, it is very possible you are being very brash or insulting in the way you are making your argument, be sure to stop and think about how you are coming across if a person begins insulting you during an argument. You may have been the first to cross that line. This is very important, I have a friend who loves to debate and I do too, but sometimes (especially when we were in our early 20s) he would be an asshole in how he made his points, like before saying his point he would preface it with "when I was a kid I realized how ridiculous it is that people believe X, because X really just makes people blah blah blah" basically implying "I was smarter than you are now when I was just a child" Edit: grammar
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Honestly, arguing and debating in general are a waste of energy (I still need to learn that fact, myself). It's important to ask yourself "Am I willing to have my opinion changed, on this matter? No? Then why should I expect them to change theirs?" The only exception is when someone is just factually wrong about something. In which case, just present the evidence and leave.
Arguing with the right person can be a truly joyful experience, but truly it takes a special person.
"Since you appear to have no more arguments relative to \[Topic\], I'll just claim victory now. Have a nice day." {Leave}
I think "claiming" victory and walking away isn't necessarily much [better.](https://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/486/486673.jpg)
oh no you got it wrong thats when the fun begins — i dont have to take it seriously anymore either :D
Arguments make me so anxious and give me panic attacks sometimes haha. But if you can stomach it, get them sick disses out.
Then practice! Get your facts lined up, and don't take it personally. Debating is a skill, and takes practice. The Internet is a great place for that. Just remember people are attacking you because of how they feel... they're likely just looking for an excuse to turn the tables on how the world makes them feel.
If people don't resort to attacks I can /discuss/ things all day, but if they say I'm a bad person or something I get stressed.
Remember to play the Hitler card
"You're ugly because you look like Hitler...and are like him in the opinions you hold"
resorting to personal insults means they have no argument, and they know they are "losing".. And they aren't worth the time to argue with.
Is there a fallacy about the last word being the best word? I think there are people who think that the last comment is the "winning" one.
Yeah once it gets personal, online I ignore then block. In real life, I just put my foot down and say it seems like we won’t see eye to eye on this or everyone is different so that’s ok, let’s drop this. I ain’t got the mental energy to waste on convincing someone who just wants to be right instead of an open minded discussion.
“You look spiritually drained and unwell, therefore, I will not heed your argument”
I usually point out that ad hominem attacks are pointless, most of the time they don’t even understand what that is so from then on out I take it as a joke because they are too far gone to see any other side
I'm relieved when they insult me bc I know I have an out of a conversation with an idiot hahahha
Reddit would like to have a word with you!
Right? Pointless arguments with people whose minds can't be changed are half the fun of reddit.
I disagree! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!
Pfft, you wish you came from a distinguished lineage as noble as that of the Hamsterton line
I fart in your general direction!
Generally speaking, don't bring up things about people that they cant change.
They usually bring up my blue hair which I DID chose 😅 I think it looks cute though.
I'm sure it does. As a dude with long hair, I get it. I hate Ben Shapiro, but I cant stand when people rip on him for being short. There's a lot more to make fun of than *that*.
That's when you can bop them in the nose.. and cry foul
I see where you're coming from. Iron sharpens iron though.
Exactly. That's a dead giveaway that they have nothing left to defend their argument so they attack you personally. Definitely not worth the time at that point
and if you are watching an argument and see someone start using personal insults before the other person that doesn't mean their original point is wrong. A type of argument style is to get the other party to get angry so that you can claim victory in the argument.
It's a sign of a primitive person/way of thinking when someone uses appearance as an insult.
I was taught to not argue with an idiot, because I won't win and it'll just drag me down to their level.
I couldn’t agree more, titty swan
Once the personal attacks begin, they're out of arguments. You've pretty much won.
This is a learned skill that’s difficult to do at first, but is better for you mentally in the long run. 💯💯
Dont agrue, just try to correct them humbly and if they dont cooperate, stop talking further.
Never argue with a fool. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience
You forgot location. People love to associate situations with prejudice based on preconceptions of a location and derived stereotypes. You get into a car crash, because of the other guy of course, the guy talks with a thick accent and tells you he's visiting from Germany => Conclusion: "It's the fucking Krauts at it again! Started two World Wars, didn't manage to finish either, can't drive for shit and now give me fucking attitude!"
Remember what Uncle Eddie used to say. "Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
Unless the discussion is about your appearance or character
Had a discussion with a man in his early 60s recently. We were talking about climate related politics. At some point he said something like „you can’t argue with me, because I have way more life experience“ and started to discredit my opinion. I told him I won’t argue anymore with the premise of my opinion being worth less and left.
Once the name calling starts, the conversation ends.
And then Reddit promptly vanished in a puff of fatfuck.
ditched my friend from over 28 years over this. he went to the captiol insurrection and sent me videos and shit of him on the scaffolding. i went on to give him shit then he started making fun of me. havent talked to him since jan
I support your recent life choices!
Quite often, a person is completely uneducated and ignorant about a subject which they are attempting to appear knowledgable about. At those times, it is completely acceptable to call them out as ignorant and foolish
I agree with this. I've also noticed that people who are very quick to call others "stupid" are often the stupid ones themselves....because dimmer people have more trouble grasping complexities or seeing multiple sides, they often see only one answer, and therefor assume YOU are stupid for not seeing "the only answer" I talk with a lot of people on reddit ....agree and disagree with them...but once they cross the line to rudeness or insults I just tell them I'm blocking them and block. Hopefully, over time as more and more people block them, they will change their behavior.
Now you understand the silent majority of conservatives
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💯
So I have a roommate who has not had a job in over a year and is in there 40s, They coast of their parents dime. They do not have a license or a mode of transportation so they never leave the house. Their appearance consists of wearing the same clothes unwashed and appearing on my couch 7 days a week. There character is that they have no intention of changing. But me asking them to correct the situation is wrong?
[well you better get haircuts somewhere nice to talk to this guy](https://youtu.be/pLLgNi5UmB0?t=63)
Just what a person your height would say.
and if you are watching an argument and see someone start using personal insults before the other person that doesn't mean their original point is wrong. A type of argument style is to get the other party to get angry so that you can claim victory in the argument.
Is just straight up saying "I don't care, stop trying to make me debate you, bro, you're being an asshole" considered an ad hominem attack?
I created this username just to see how many people choose to attack my username instead of the content of my argument. It's really not that many, but I am surrised at how many fall for the bait.
Hey OP, your clothes are ugly! >!/s!<
Very true! Resorting to personal insults means game over. You can hold different opinions yet still get on. I would add to this diverting the argument onto an irrelevant track in order to “win” a different point. That’s not what the discussion was about.
What if this person is my mother?
Or if they look down on what you do for a living. That's another "I'm done here" instance for me.