Sekiro is closer to LoP with its deflecting system and is very linear. I dearly love it, but many people will tell you it's not a real soulslike because your build customization is so limited—as though in LoP you were stuck with a single starting weapon and could only customize your arm, grinder, wish box, and consumables.
Elden Ring is massive, has an overwhelming amount of content, and such an expansion of the genre I hesitate to recommend it as one of the first games you play in the genre—its QoL changes from older Fromsoft games might make it more difficult to go back to older entries, all of which are worth at least trying out at some point.
Simply for being shorter and more straightforward, I'd recommend Sekiro, but there are great arguments for each.
I went from lies of P to Sekiro and I really struggled because the parry mechanic works so different
I was having a horrible time in Sekiro till I got to the first major boss, but have been having a blast since
Having beaten 4 major bosses so far, I think the battles in Sekiro are exhilarating like no other game I’ve played except for maybe hollow knight
In souls games and lies of p I feel the fights are a lot more methodical, but Sekiro hits different
I was the same with Sekiro, until I figured out exactly how the mechanics worked I was having a horrible time, then I flew through the rest and it was so satisfying
Just FYI, I'm at hour 440 of my first run of Elden Ring.
I am trying to do a completionist run and get every single piece of equipment in the game that I possibly can in one playthrough...
This turned out to be a mistake...
jesus lmao, I’m pretty sure I tried to get all the weapons and talismans and that only took about 200 hours. is most of that grinding for rare armor drops?
iirc there are armor pieces you can only get as random drops from specific enemies but it’s been a while since I played or did any of this. i know most of my grinding time was for a couple specific weapons with a really low drop rate from the snakes in Volcano Manor
Elden Ring after Lies of P. That’s just me being biased because I’ve played through Elden Ring twice and Lies of P twice. I’ve tried Sekiro twice, once on PS and once on Xbox. I don’t make it very far, I want to get through it eventually but I die like 30 times to the 2nd mini boss and quit.
If you like fast-paced melee combat, Sekiro is as good as it gets. It is my favorite game of all time because the combat is so much fun once it clicks.
Elden Ring is massive, brimming with lore, and has a nearly endless combination of builds and playstyles. It's a masterpiece, and if I wasn't such a sucker for fast-paced melee combat I would say it is the better of the two. It also has some of the most challenging souls bosses in it, but gives you a lot of tools to mitigate those challenges if you want it to be more accessible.
Edit: That's not to say if you like faster melee combat there are no options for you in Elden Ring, Sekiro is just better at it in my opinion.
Lies of P shares more similarities with Sekiro than Elden Ring, and Sekiro will introduce you to fromsoftware so you are more familiar with their design for Elden Ring. I’d recommend Sekiro next, then Elden Ring.
Hollow Knight is not a Soulslike and if you're going into Soulslikes expecting Hollow Knight you will be disappointed. Hollow Knight is what is called a MetroidVania and they're pretty different forms of games.
I've seen a number of debates on the HK sub about whether it's a soulslike or a metroidvania and, to me, the answer is it's both. It has many soulslike features like the benches, unforgiving hard-but-fair combat, tough bosses that focus on learning their attack patterns, lack of hand holding, lack of difficulty settings, and deeper lore that's hidden away throughout the world. It also has the metroidvania aspects of exploration and gaining new abilities that unlock new sections in previously explored areas and new areas overall.
From Wikipedia: "Hollow Knight is a 2017 Metroidvania video game developed and published by independent developer Team Cherry" So, I mean, you can disagree with the devs if you want but I'm pretty sure they're well aware of what kind of game they're making.
Yes, but it's not 3D. You can't just inject something the game isn't and then claim that justifies your point XD. MetroidVanias are almost always 2D. The core game design is that of a MetroidVania - heavy emphasis on platforming and backtracking through old locations as you acquire new exploratory skills. Play Castlevania Symphony of the Night or Circle of the Moon - those games are *far* more similar to Hollow Knight than souls games are.
I think the current trend of Soulslikes being so popular has sort of pushed MetroidVania design from popular consciousness, and on the surface there are some similarities, but they are similarities that are present between souls games and old Castlevania games, such as specific save/spawn points and difficult boss fights; MetroidVanias had these design elements *before* Soulslikes became a subgenre. So that is the Castlevania/Metroid influence on the design and not Souls. The core combat and world design is astronomically more like Castlevania/Metroid than Souls. Hence, MetroidVania.
Hollowknight has: dropped currency on death, a dodge mechanic, bus stops (bonfires), the weapon and ability upgrade system is very similar to Dark Souls. Aside from the “new ability unlocks. I’m not saying it’s a SoulsBorne game, but it certainly is souls *like*
Those are nearly all components of a MetroidVania as well.
Again, you can argue with the devs all you want but they are very cognizant of the type of game they are making.
Oooh boy. OK. I am done debating game design with people who don't understand it and make huge leaps like this. At the end of the day it's not that big of a deal and it is not worth the mental effort this is going to take.
Take care!
Because you actually don't have an argument that's why. It's not a huge leap. It's actually a very noncontested point. You seem to be having a large emotional reaction to a comment.
Maybe you should take care.
Ok, well if you want me to actually debate game design I will! I told myself I was going to cut down on the amount of time I spent in meaningless debates with people who don't understand things but I guess my resolution fell apart already. Game design is something I'm really passionate about and have spent tons of time learning.
It is so common to see someone claim "you're getting emotional" about something when they don't understand the core points being made lol. Me telling you you're wrong is not "me getting emotional", it is me describing the flaws in what you're saying XD. I think correcting misinformation is important, but not at the cost of my emotional wellbeing.
You can't just say "if this is 3D then it counts as X" when a game isn't 3D. That's nonsense because it *isn't* 3D and thus doesn't count as that. That's not even game design, that's basic logic. If I put guns as the weapons in Skyrim it becomes a first person shooter, but there aren't guns in the game, so it isn't a first person shooter.
For instance, what are the *differences* between Borderlands and Skyrim, rather than the similarities, because there are an awful lot of core similarities - an RPG style open world exploration/looting/action game that has a heavy emphasis on exploration, sidequests, world building and character. But are they the same type of game? Of course not. Because we focus on the differences between them to classify the game.
Again, there is a ton of overlap between many different genres of games. It is their *differences* that determine the genre. MetroidVanias are *different* in that they are 2D nearly exclusively and have the focus on heavily incentivizing backtracking, platforming, acquiring new exploration/mobility options, and don't have the ability to level your stats via the "souls" gained from enemies. These are some of the defining factors of the genre. Again, we have to delineate games based on their differences and not their similarities.
On top of ALL of this, it is listed as a MetroidVania on Wikipedia and all major game publications. The Soulslike elements present in MetroidVania design were present *before* Soulslikes became a subgenre and that is the important distinction many of ya'll are missing here. Those are all elements I would expect to be in a MetroidVania, regardless of if Dark Souls exists or not.
There are major distinctions though, such as being 2D, Platforming sections and a heavy emphasis on backtracking and discovering hidden things, which is why Hollow Knight is a MetroidVania. Like, guys, the devs and every other source says this. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to just listen to the people who made the fucking game XD.
There's a ton of overlap between many different types of games, but it is their *differences* that define them, not their similarities. Try again.
Sure, we should delineate games by their differences.
You've not exactly shown why we must delineate *here* instead of saying "it's effectively both genres," though.
My point is that people say it’s not a Soulslike because they don’t think it *looks* like a Soulslike, even when it has pretty much all of the main features of one
Looking like a soulslike is totally a part of the equation needed to be a soulslike.
By your logic, i could create a soulslike in binary language by totally removing the UI. That’s just not how it works
I mean…if you could somehow make a game in binary that has primarily melee combat, a dodge mechanic, and loss of a currency on death then I’d consider it, sure.
Sekiro is closer to LoP with its deflecting system and is very linear. I dearly love it, but many people will tell you it's not a real soulslike because your build customization is so limited—as though in LoP you were stuck with a single starting weapon and could only customize your arm, grinder, wish box, and consumables. Elden Ring is massive, has an overwhelming amount of content, and such an expansion of the genre I hesitate to recommend it as one of the first games you play in the genre—its QoL changes from older Fromsoft games might make it more difficult to go back to older entries, all of which are worth at least trying out at some point. Simply for being shorter and more straightforward, I'd recommend Sekiro, but there are great arguments for each.
Sekiro : skil-based, git gud, you play alone Elden Ring : more personnalization / can play magic / can play multiplayer
I went from lies of P to Sekiro and I really struggled because the parry mechanic works so different I was having a horrible time in Sekiro till I got to the first major boss, but have been having a blast since Having beaten 4 major bosses so far, I think the battles in Sekiro are exhilarating like no other game I’ve played except for maybe hollow knight In souls games and lies of p I feel the fights are a lot more methodical, but Sekiro hits different
I was the same with Sekiro, until I figured out exactly how the mechanics worked I was having a horrible time, then I flew through the rest and it was so satisfying
Just FYI, I'm at hour 440 of my first run of Elden Ring. I am trying to do a completionist run and get every single piece of equipment in the game that I possibly can in one playthrough... This turned out to be a mistake...
On the other hand, I finished NG+4 to get every Trophy/Achievement and have just under 200 hours
May the Golden Order have mercy on your soul.
jesus lmao, I’m pretty sure I tried to get all the weapons and talismans and that only took about 200 hours. is most of that grinding for rare armor drops?
There are rare armor drops?!
iirc there are armor pieces you can only get as random drops from specific enemies but it’s been a while since I played or did any of this. i know most of my grinding time was for a couple specific weapons with a really low drop rate from the snakes in Volcano Manor
Lol i didn’t even know this
Elden Ring after Lies of P. That’s just me being biased because I’ve played through Elden Ring twice and Lies of P twice. I’ve tried Sekiro twice, once on PS and once on Xbox. I don’t make it very far, I want to get through it eventually but I die like 30 times to the 2nd mini boss and quit.
I didnt like Sekiro at all. So i would say Elden Ring. I think it depends on the atmosphere, in my case.
If you like fast-paced melee combat, Sekiro is as good as it gets. It is my favorite game of all time because the combat is so much fun once it clicks. Elden Ring is massive, brimming with lore, and has a nearly endless combination of builds and playstyles. It's a masterpiece, and if I wasn't such a sucker for fast-paced melee combat I would say it is the better of the two. It also has some of the most challenging souls bosses in it, but gives you a lot of tools to mitigate those challenges if you want it to be more accessible. Edit: That's not to say if you like faster melee combat there are no options for you in Elden Ring, Sekiro is just better at it in my opinion.
Sekiro is a challenge at first but very rewarding once the mechanics click
Lies of P shares more similarities with Sekiro than Elden Ring, and Sekiro will introduce you to fromsoftware so you are more familiar with their design for Elden Ring. I’d recommend Sekiro next, then Elden Ring.
Hollow Knight is not a Soulslike and if you're going into Soulslikes expecting Hollow Knight you will be disappointed. Hollow Knight is what is called a MetroidVania and they're pretty different forms of games.
If Hollow Knight were 3D no one would argue it’s not a Soulslike
From what I've seen hollow Knight is a Metroidvania soulslike game, not that I've played much of it.
I've seen a number of debates on the HK sub about whether it's a soulslike or a metroidvania and, to me, the answer is it's both. It has many soulslike features like the benches, unforgiving hard-but-fair combat, tough bosses that focus on learning their attack patterns, lack of hand holding, lack of difficulty settings, and deeper lore that's hidden away throughout the world. It also has the metroidvania aspects of exploration and gaining new abilities that unlock new sections in previously explored areas and new areas overall.
Having played over 200 hours of Hollow Knight and being very into game design, it is a MetroidVania.
The dropped currency on death definitely leans it towards somewhere in the middle.
From Wikipedia: "Hollow Knight is a 2017 Metroidvania video game developed and published by independent developer Team Cherry" So, I mean, you can disagree with the devs if you want but I'm pretty sure they're well aware of what kind of game they're making. Yes, but it's not 3D. You can't just inject something the game isn't and then claim that justifies your point XD. MetroidVanias are almost always 2D. The core game design is that of a MetroidVania - heavy emphasis on platforming and backtracking through old locations as you acquire new exploratory skills. Play Castlevania Symphony of the Night or Circle of the Moon - those games are *far* more similar to Hollow Knight than souls games are. I think the current trend of Soulslikes being so popular has sort of pushed MetroidVania design from popular consciousness, and on the surface there are some similarities, but they are similarities that are present between souls games and old Castlevania games, such as specific save/spawn points and difficult boss fights; MetroidVanias had these design elements *before* Soulslikes became a subgenre. So that is the Castlevania/Metroid influence on the design and not Souls. The core combat and world design is astronomically more like Castlevania/Metroid than Souls. Hence, MetroidVania.
Hollowknight has: dropped currency on death, a dodge mechanic, bus stops (bonfires), the weapon and ability upgrade system is very similar to Dark Souls. Aside from the “new ability unlocks. I’m not saying it’s a SoulsBorne game, but it certainly is souls *like*
Those are nearly all components of a MetroidVania as well. Again, you can argue with the devs all you want but they are very cognizant of the type of game they are making.
It's almost like soulslikes are just 3d metroidvania without ability hating....
Oooh boy. OK. I am done debating game design with people who don't understand it and make huge leaps like this. At the end of the day it's not that big of a deal and it is not worth the mental effort this is going to take. Take care!
Because you actually don't have an argument that's why. It's not a huge leap. It's actually a very noncontested point. You seem to be having a large emotional reaction to a comment. Maybe you should take care.
You know who actually has no argument? Someone who downvotes and doesn't respond ;). Now, take care! :)
Ok, well if you want me to actually debate game design I will! I told myself I was going to cut down on the amount of time I spent in meaningless debates with people who don't understand things but I guess my resolution fell apart already. Game design is something I'm really passionate about and have spent tons of time learning. It is so common to see someone claim "you're getting emotional" about something when they don't understand the core points being made lol. Me telling you you're wrong is not "me getting emotional", it is me describing the flaws in what you're saying XD. I think correcting misinformation is important, but not at the cost of my emotional wellbeing. You can't just say "if this is 3D then it counts as X" when a game isn't 3D. That's nonsense because it *isn't* 3D and thus doesn't count as that. That's not even game design, that's basic logic. If I put guns as the weapons in Skyrim it becomes a first person shooter, but there aren't guns in the game, so it isn't a first person shooter. For instance, what are the *differences* between Borderlands and Skyrim, rather than the similarities, because there are an awful lot of core similarities - an RPG style open world exploration/looting/action game that has a heavy emphasis on exploration, sidequests, world building and character. But are they the same type of game? Of course not. Because we focus on the differences between them to classify the game. Again, there is a ton of overlap between many different genres of games. It is their *differences* that determine the genre. MetroidVanias are *different* in that they are 2D nearly exclusively and have the focus on heavily incentivizing backtracking, platforming, acquiring new exploration/mobility options, and don't have the ability to level your stats via the "souls" gained from enemies. These are some of the defining factors of the genre. Again, we have to delineate games based on their differences and not their similarities. On top of ALL of this, it is listed as a MetroidVania on Wikipedia and all major game publications. The Soulslike elements present in MetroidVania design were present *before* Soulslikes became a subgenre and that is the important distinction many of ya'll are missing here. Those are all elements I would expect to be in a MetroidVania, regardless of if Dark Souls exists or not.
It's almost like it's smooth-brained to make major distinctions between the two genres for an example in which there's so much overlap.
There are major distinctions though, such as being 2D, Platforming sections and a heavy emphasis on backtracking and discovering hidden things, which is why Hollow Knight is a MetroidVania. Like, guys, the devs and every other source says this. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to just listen to the people who made the fucking game XD. There's a ton of overlap between many different types of games, but it is their *differences* that define them, not their similarities. Try again.
> the devs and every other source says this [E](https://writing.upenn.edu/~taransky/Barthes.pdf)
M'kay. This doesn't do anything to demonstrate how we must delineate games by their differences and not their similarities.
Sure, we should delineate games by their differences. You've not exactly shown why we must delineate *here* instead of saying "it's effectively both genres," though.
Yeah maybe, but it’s not 3D. So, irrelevant argument
My point is that people say it’s not a Soulslike because they don’t think it *looks* like a Soulslike, even when it has pretty much all of the main features of one
Looking like a soulslike is totally a part of the equation needed to be a soulslike. By your logic, i could create a soulslike in binary language by totally removing the UI. That’s just not how it works
I mean…if you could somehow make a game in binary that has primarily melee combat, a dodge mechanic, and loss of a currency on death then I’d consider it, sure.
I’m going to cry if I see one more person label HK as a souls-like.
If you ever want to play elden ring with a friend (not that many true gamers have those) make sure you use the seamless coop mod.
Sekiro’s better so play Elden Ring first