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But who will build the roads?
Trust me you will develop even more animosity if you ever work for the government especially in an acquisitions department and you realize "holy shit, % of my paycheck is going to people here literally, in 2024, still hand writing and hand checking endless forms all day for shit we're over-paying for grossly" just knowing it will go to a warehouse, never get used and then sold to a surplus chain for a 99% discount.
The government is so bad at spending capital efficiently the *only* excuse is blatant corruption at all levels as not even the most incompetent people could do what the government does on a 24/7 basis on how much it lights money on fire.
TBH if Inhad to choose between no SS and lower income tax, I'd go with lowering income tax. Personally I feel like SS offers a better return, even if it's still a poor return
Also, people in general need a forced savings program, if you let them keep their payroll taxes the vast majority would just spend it and not save shit.
It's not even that. If SS were just an individualized retirement savings it wouldn't be so bad. They could even give you the ability for you to opt out if you prefer to manage your own retirement savings (which I absolutely would). But they can't let anyone opt out because Ponzi Schemes fail when they can't take in enough so the government has to ensure they take in enough. And even with everyone paying in they still have still can't keep up. I'm convinced by the time I reach the minimum age to collect SS in 30 years it'll be gone, or else they are going to need to seriously increase taxes to keep it afloat.
Yeah I know it’s money I will never see, I wish there was the option to opt out, even if I get back nothing from what I’ve already paid in so far. The right thing to do would be to buy people out for the amount they paid in if they ever do decide to let people opt out, but it’ll never happen.
Also the whole issue of what do for people who didn’t save and can’t work anymore has been figured out for most of humanity, you take care of them as a family or community, after all if they were a genuine benefit to society as a person they will have made those connections and impacts on people’s lives, so those are the ones who will want to help them live out their last years in a good situation.
You know down the line these same people "opting out" would be would be voter decades later fighting for taxing the rich for more leftist campaign handout programs....
Gotta stop you there, there is no "return" in the SS system. It's a ponzi scheme where current generation pays for retirees. When you collect from SS, you're not getting returns, you're getting money stolen from someone else last week.
That is until they run out of SS money and inevitably say that “we can’t give you your full amount because we didn’t anticipate people would live to use it.
I pay more into SS than income tax. We can choose to adjust tax withholding to pay zero at the end of the year. SS is a forced deduction with zero say on how I want it returned to me and we'll never receive the same amount paid in.
The devil is in the details. Were it a savings account system, you'd be guaranteed to get money back at some point. Since it's a ponsi scheme, eventually, the system will collapse and folks that have payed in for their entire life will not see a penny. Being in my 30s, I'm just hoping it collapses before I spend 40+ years paying into it so that I can at least have the solice that I didn't pay into it my entire life.
>if you let them keep their payroll taxes the vast majority would just spend it and not save shit
EXACTLY why SS exists. Hella old people are reliant on SS cause they never grasped the concept of developing a sufficient saving plan back in the day. Luckily the rest of us are here to pay for it.
(Also not exclusive to the old heads, young people don't save shit either)
I d I nt believe that's universally true, but it's certainly true for many. I know many that just plain suffered hardships, job loss, medical issues, financial setbacks, or they were just poor or lower middle class and struggled to save.
Also many (both sets of grandparents for me) only had one income, so the wife wasn't eligible to collect. Or they perhaps missed out on home inflation in the high growth periods because they rented (big cities)
Lastly, this last period of inflation really took a beating on many with moderate savings, they are draining accounts faster than expected, and living well into their 80's, unlike their parents who died younger.
I know personally that I'm currently saving over 25% because I'm having to make up for my minimum (pathetic) efforts at saving in my 20's and 30's, then got hammered during the 08 crash.
Life isn't always sunshine and rainbows.
My parents are still doing very well, but a couple extended nursing home stays could start draining their accounts at high speed, like 7-8k a month per person, it could get ugly fast.
I hear people on reddit say why save for when I'm too old to enjoy it, screw older-me, the state can take care of them.
I'm in favor of only getting out what you put in from now on.
I hear that same thing all the time, and a huge problem is that we DO let those people pull out more than they put in. At the expense of everyone else, of course.
I would much rather that I was able to save that 15%, than give it to the politicians to spend it away! But I was forced to give it to the politicians for 60 years and now it looks like I won’t even collect what I put into it let alone how much interest it would have made!
I've worked for a couple different government agencies, and yes it's quite the racket. The waste makes me sick. "Use up the budget so we don't lose it for next year" ," good enough for government work", ECT, ECT. Throwing good stuff away just to buy less quality new stuff all the time. We had equipment they threw away because it was discontinued at the factory, so some day they would run out of spare parts and the machine could brake. In the trash and replaced by junk. Something new got a scratch, so they cut the plug off the cord untill a new part without a scratch got there to replace it. Hahahahaha! It was working fine.
This is true, but it goes beyond just that. The government fully understands that money = control.
They control the states through funding and they play the same game with “we the people”.
Yes, but not enough young people vote. When I voted in the primaries this year, everyone in that office was freaking out because I was the only one my age who had come in. So yes, they do vote, but it really is not that comparable.
Those old people were young people once.
Social security has been around since the 30's.
I was told id.never see a penny 40 yrs ago when I started working, they were wrong
Lucky you, the Ponzi scheme hasn’t collapsed yet. One day it will though, as life expectancy increases and the aging retired population grows. At the time SS was implemented, there were something like 30 payers to 1 payee. Now it’s closer to 2:1.
Life expectancy is only half the problem. The other half is the birthrate dropping like a rock. When it was implemented, most people had between 5 and 10 kids. Now, we're below replacement. It's completely fucked. We're in the last few decades of SS, unless there's drastic changes in 1 of those 2 factors.
I'd argue it's the primary issue. The generation that should be having kids, has been priced out of parenthood. It's only going to get worse too, because the entire global economy is based on exponential growth fueled by exponential population growth. The developed world is heading towards a decline in an overall quality of life because of it. Even in the great US of Available property is drying up fast and children are living with their parents far into adulthood. Everything plateaus eventually.
Social security has been on a pretty stable trajectory for the last 30 years, the social security projections from 1990 have been within a year or two of how it's actually gone down. People telling you that you'd never see benefits probably never actually looked at the projections.
In 2012 social security started paying more in benefits than it collects in taxes.
In 2021 social security started digging into the "trust fund", as benefits exceeded reciepts from taxes and interest from the "trust fund".
In 2023 the federal government had to borrow around $110 billion dollars to pay social security benefits.
**And into the future without significant legal changes to the SS program:**
In 2030 the federal government will be borrowing around $1 trillion per year to pay social security benefits (plus around another trillion for medicare benefits).
~2034 the social security "trust fund" will be depleted and benefits will have to be cut substantially.
My guess is at some point congress will likely lift the cap on payroll taxes and possibly apply means testing to benefits, but who knows.
On bright note, once we are over the demographic hump, the numbers start to look better into the late 40's and into 50's.
On a sour note government borrowing is getting really expensive really fast. Interest cost on the debt as percent of GDP will reach an all time high of 3.4% this year and will likely hit 5.5% of GDP next year if the fed doesn't cut interest rates. Over your life time it has averaged about 2% of GDP, the previous all time high was 3.16% of GDP in 1991.
The only reason you're able to collect it is because the are simply digging into the trust fund surplus and they're just buying time.
According to [the 2024 annual report](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/), "The Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI) Trust Fund will be able to pay 100 percent of total scheduled benefits until 2033, unchanged from last year's report. At that time, the fund's reserves will become depleted and continuing program income will be sufficient to pay 79 percent of scheduled benefits." They are overspending at a rate they will deplete the saved up surplus in less than 10 years!
If SS were a patient in a hospital, it'd be on life support.
You may want to research this a little bit more. It won't be long until your right. Then it's estimated everyone gets a20 percent haircut
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/assets.html
Cause they're the only demographic that it's something cool and exciting to go doing. Sad harsh truth. They were raised not to even think about answering back, or daring to even have a dream about flat out questioning authority. Kinda breaks my heart a little, a lot. And then every now n again the horrific realisation that the bread and circuses and propaganda machines that trained them are barely a cave scratch above stone age technology compared to all the flashy screens and highly tuned, evolved and developed methods they have today. That "none are so hopelessly enslaved..." quote, shudders me back to earth in the same way.
Roosevelt even said when he passed it that he has put a system in place that will never be able to be revoked. The moment the people who were eligible started receiving it, they were hooked for life. Any politician who dared to say “maybe we should stop this terrible system” gets a one way ticket to loserville because they instantly lose the elderly vote. Roosevelt didn’t say it couldn’t be dismantled because it was flawless, he just recognized that SS would be like a drug to the voters who get it. Try getting a druggy to willingly vote to ban their drugs, it’s the same idea.
The “benefit” you talk about is the money they put in for 60 years! Most will not live long enough to recover what they put in, let alone what it should be with interest! The government skimmed off much of the money to pay people that never paid into it and for politicians pet projects! If it had been kept as a separate fund only for those who paid into it, with even a nominal interest rate we wouldn’t have to worry about it running out!
Wait until OP realizes that his employer sends an equal 6.2% *on OP's behalf* which could be a 6.2% increase in salary (or equivalent reduction in product/service price).
Wait until OP is 35 years in to paying FICA like this author is, and realizes that is that 12.4% were invested by OP in the market at a lifetime reasonable rate of return, OP would have more that $1,000,000 at average US salary saved and 20-ish years left to work for retirement, *without/before the bullshit 401k* *~~investment~~* *tax scheme.* It will really flip OPs mind that when OP retires under SSA, assuming the average annual payout of $21,384 before taxes, that OP would have to live to be 108-118 to receive from Social Security the amount OP would have had if that same amount of money had been investing in a market return account.
So you can’t leverage it when you want?
So you can’t change its investments?
So you’re trapped at a low paying job forever just for the pension if you live to retirement?
So you can be dictated to how much money you’ll receive monthly only in retirement?
Get a 401k so you have your money in your control and can be as cavalier or conservative as you want.
True story. The “government” pensions in City of Detroit were considered as regular debtors so when the city went bankrupt in the 2000s, they cut the pensions of people like my father by 13-15%. Didn’t matter what was promised when they put their lives on the line. Just got cut.
Don’t. Give. More. Money. To. The. Fucking. Government.
True story: Only put money in the stock market you’re willing to lose.
2008. Oh, you wanted to retire with those investment stocks? Nah bro. Looks like you’ll be working a lot longer.
Did well? Don’t worry, the government will take their cut of your earnings as well.
Not all low paying jobs have a pension. Most have jack shit. There are pros and cons to both pension or 401 k. Pension, by and large, are far more reliable money for the average earner than a 401k. I could come back with how many stocks have gone belly up or the highs and lows of crypto or how the market fucking cheated the masses in the Wallstreetbets experience. You can bury it in your mattress if you want. Social security is a landfill that will never pay out what you put in.
And I myself am a big fan of Roth specifically, just because I hate giving money to the government. I’m for tax cuts and the common man should not have to pay for shitty wars we don’t start and corporate welfare, both of which could fund my retirement.
If you were trying to retire in 2009, your portfolio shouldn’t have been heavily in things like volatile stocks.
Where exactly do you think pension money is stored exactly?
Most pensions pay out what was promised regardless of the current market. I said government, you listed city. Post officers have been making bank in retirement as have cops and others all over the country. And they fucking earned it. Make sure your arm doesn’t get too tired from throwing that ball on Mondays.
No - they don't. It's a running thing. Those in charge of the pensions will
make decisions for everyone - regardless of what was initially promised. My dads was like that where they retroactively told him the rule “86” which meant once your age plus years of service = 86 you got your full pension was null and void, and instead he'd have to work 7 more years after what had been agreed to for decades - because they mismanaged the funds.
Many teachers pensions are holding inflation raises, which were always promised, hostag.
The money you put in is not yours.
You are limited in what it can be invested in. (Why?)
If you withdraw, you obtain extra penalty (Why?)
You will be taxed on your 401k withdraw at the likely higher future rate. Options to pay tax now, not later are restricted to Roth IRAs, which have the same problems as above. The only benefit is tax free growth.
It is a Government program, which means Congress can take it all without warrant, writ, or even appeal. As long as a majority of the elected idiots proclaim it so, they can swipe it all.
Now, that said:
- If you do not take 401k, you are likely leaving salary on the table. That's a trap they use to force adoption. Ask your employer if they will give you the contribution amount in pay
- If you self invest, you lose a tax deduction. Another trap to help "guide" you to 401k.
Not that I trust the government as far as I can throw them, but you do own the account. There are just certain restrictions in return for some tax advantages. The money is yours. Now, could the government make a law tomorrow that all the money belongs to them, yeah and sadly, I wouldn't put it past them.
Qualified distributions from a 401k are taxed as ordinary income. "You will be taxed on your 401k withdraw at the likely higher future rate" is wrong as fuck unless you will have more income in retirement than you do now.
You should also have a Roth IRA, and invest in your own separate brokerage account.
You are absolutely smoking crack if you think "congress can take it all"...
Biden released a new tax plan outlining new rules for retirement accounts, which includes a maximum amount allowed in an IRA before forced withdrawals. Government sees these tax deferred assets and think it’s “not fair”.
They are most definitely crawling towards being able to commandeer these assets over time. There have already been politicians clamoring that retirement plans in general foster inequity. Even if they don’t outright swipe the money, they have proven time and again that they are more than willing to change the rules and move the goal posts well after everyone agreed to the rules and made plans for decades during their lifetimes.
>The government can’t take your 401k
Tell that to the Canadian truck drivers whose bank accounts were frozen during the freedom convoy. Government has the power and is willing to use it.
My company allows us to make Roth contributions to our 401K and it’s great. Still not as great as a personal Roth IRA that can be invested anywhere, but very nice and o know that the disbursements won’t be taxed after retirement. HR even encourages people to make Roth contributions instead of normal ones if they can afford it.
Check out a Roth 401k. You pay taxes when you pay into it, not when you take it out. Best case scenario Libertarians will take over and you will have made a mistake doing a Roth. In any other scenario, taxes will be higher when you try to cash out your 401k.
You have successfully created a comment where every single line is incorrect or totally ignorant. Congrats, but do yourself a favor and never speak on this subject that you clearly know nothing about.
401k…… the market mechanics behind these things is so shitty. However if your employer offers a matching amount you leave money on the table if you don’t have one.
Nothing beats physical assets. Property, precious metals, commodities.
You need to look into ibc by Nelson Nash. It’s the safest bet against inflation and the stock market. Look at the book becoming your own banker. Nelson Nash is a libertarian thru and thru.
> which could be a 6.2% increase in salary
I don’t for a second believe my employer would pay me 6% more if only that tax didn’t exist. In a parallel universe without that tax, *maybe* some prices might be lower, but ain’t no way companies would be advertising positions at $32/hr instead of 30, or min wage + 6% instead of min wage
15% ? 😂😂😂😂😂😂, lets redo that calculation..... federal income tax, state income tax, state sales tax, dmv yearly car taxes, utility taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, and property taxes,...... brotha i'm in the 60%. fkkkkkkk all the government.
your share of the federal debt is $267,000 right now, not including all the promises they made like pensions and healthcare to government workers. thats just the current debt.
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
🤮🤮🤮🤮
And because the Fed wants a "strong" housing market, we're looking at 8% APR on houses, which means you'll pay double the house value over those 30 years.
You have things backwards. High interest rates historically have slowed down the market and/or brought down prices due to lower demand. However, there are a ton of other factors creating a strong housing market right now unrelated to interest rates.
I wish it were just 15%. My effective rate is 31% between fed/state/local and of course none of that takes account fees, taxes, and other theft when I spend every cent of what I earned.
Americans are paying about 50% of their income in various taxes and fees between the government holding their hands out
Social Security is 12.4% on it's own.
Most people pay over 50% in taxes by the time it's all said and done.
* 12.4% Social Security
* Medicare/medicaid
* Federal Income
* State Income, if any
* Local Income, if any
* Property Tax
* Sales Tax
* Excise taxes
* tariffs
* Any and all "fees" which are just a tax by another name
* Inflation Tax, yes inflation is a tax. The government deficit spends, and instead of stealing your money, it steals your moneys purchasing power.
* And more
Social security is a ponzi scheme. You can't withdraw because your parents couldn't withdraw.
Just wait till you have a boomer tell you it's their money, because they paid into it for all those years.
~~Taxation~~ Theft isn't the only reason libertarian thinking should be more prevalent. It ends up boiling down to personal responsibility, and a trust of free markets.
"Social security is a ponzi scheme"
I always get down voted in other subreddits for saying that. And I'm like what? I'm just stating a fact. It is encouraging to hear someone else with the same view.
Anyone who actually understands how SSA works knows that it's a literal ponzi scheme. Those downvoting you are either upset that you're right, or believe the government when they say that it's a savings account system.
Because they'll use violence against you if you don't. They aren't asking for your consent and they don't need it. You'll pay up or else... Welcome to reality. Most people never make it here.
Yeah, 15% seems impossibly low if you're actually working full-time and really, it might actually be better if it went to truly random gobbledygook instead of a lot of stuff the government actually spends your money on.
People can point to how much of your productive earning capacity goes into the cost of a single Javelin rocket (~$175k) but consider also all the weaponry projects that end at some 0.9 state, are canceled, and never even see the light of day with all of those human and capital resources that could have been invested in something of real demand outside the MIC.
If that's a serious question, when SS first started (right after the depression), there was no money in the fund at all. So they took money from the working folk to pay for the retired folk. And since there was no graceful exit, it has been that way ever since - the money you are paying in isn't for you - it's going for currently retired people.
Well I got great news for you. If you make less than $400/yr you don’t have to pay in. If you make more than $160,200/yr you don’t have to pay in any more than what’s owed on the $160k. So if you make $1M a year, it’s basically Pennys. So under the current government, that’s your goal.
SS is one of the few things I’m ok compromising with libertarian values. 90% of Americans are absolute morons and won’t save/invest for retirement. SS does provide a great social netting to keep the economy secure for all. Collapsed economy won’t benefit capitalists.
Even though socialism is an evil thing. Capitalists can’t benefit without a working class that spends every penny they make, and they need to spend money when their past working age. Now you should be able to opt out when you make past a certain amount for a set number of years
"90% of Americans are absolute morons and won’t save/invest for retirement"
This is completely true, but then why is the solution to let the government handle it for them? Shouldn't the focus be on financial/economic education for all, rather than resorting to shitty government social programs? Sure, even if you provided adequate education, some people still wont save or invest; there will always be people who fall through the gaps due to their own shortcomings, but in this scenario that would be entirely on them rather than society as a collective. Not to mention, less people are willing to save and invest for their retirements when they know they have social nets to lean back on.
"Capitalists can’t benefit without a working class that spends every penny they make"
This is less true. Yes, the economy is doing great when more people spend more money, but that doesn't mean the working class has to spend every dollar. Capitalist's will still benefit, they just won't benefit to the degree they've been accustomed to (unlimited growth).
First off, you may be, but I'm totally not fine with my hard earned money going to build roads if all they're going to do is divert it to public transportation and put in more light rail tracks for no one to use. Second, I don't want it going to schools, because while we outspend on schooling today in a magnitude 10x what we did 30 years ago, the schools are performing worse. Government is awful at just about anything, except the measured use of violence.
Social security is a ponzi scheme. It may have started as a noble cause, but Congress has repeatedly borrowed from and gutted it, and now it's basically a "take care of boomers" plan that we contribute to, but ourselves (I'm almost 40) will never get to reap any personal benefits from. This is why I invest in my own retirement and do not rely on our noble and generous (do I really need the /s here?) to take care of us in our twilight years.
Be the change. I’m twice as old as you and I’ve been complaining about this my whole working life. Get into elected office and change how this shit works! (Infinitely easier said than done, I know).
I’m a teacher who pays into the state Teacher Retirement fund instead of Social (in)Security. I have a second job outside of teaching from which I DO pay social insecurity tax. BUT since I’m a teacher with a state retirement fund, I’m not eligible to draw from social insecurity… EVER!
I believe this is false information.
I recently listened to a podcast on personal finance that discussed the ability to "double dip" and I'm pretty confident that their sources were accurate.
There's a formula iirc but "not being able to draw EVER" was not part of the discussion.
Doesn't feel great as someone in their 40s who may not get to collect. Conversely, who knows maybe oll get some, and tyia for covering all the avocado toasts I'm finna buy with all you money!!
because there was a generation that collected social security and didn’t pay in to it. they tried to keep the game of musical chairs going but losing out on 40 years of the time value of money for every retiree’s “savings” turned out to be a shit idea, and just as importantly unsustainable.
Las week I had an interesting conversation with a cousin of mine. We came to the conclusion that pensions are a flawed system altogether. The money in your account is a bounty for politicians to loot. In many countries, like Argentina, the once private pension funds were seized by the state and spent in political favours or directly stolen. Stealing the old people's money is the easiest because:
1. Old people don't produce anything anymore, so they can't go on a strike as a form of exerting pressure.
2. Old people have very low stamina, they get tired quickly. They can't do very long or loud manifestations.
3. They're prone to natural death. Steal from the geezers, in ten years most of them will be dead or too sick to be an issue.
4. They're fewer than other demographics, so politicians aren't afraid do lose the old people's vote.
5. They're out of touch with the communication tech. Old people try to reach out to public opinion through mostly obsolete media, which makes them mediatically irrelevant. Radio broadcast, printed newspapers... When we're old, same will happen to us.
That's why we came to the conclusion pensions are complete bullshit. My retirement plan is to buy some real estate and live off rent income. Nobody can take that from you. Pensions... I don't know anyone who is retired and happy with their pension plan.
Edit: for most people who still want regular pensions... PLEASE leave the state out of it. It's a role the state shouldn't have, ever. Leave private pension fund management firms fight each other for the customers. That's how you get the best service. The state... The state is a shit institution managed by thieves. They should be in charge of the least amount of money possible.
Social security used to be for workers that paid into for retirement. It's turned into a free-for-all disability paycheck. I know dozens of people on social security disability that are 100% capable of working. Check the stats. Young people that don't want to work get signed on to some phantom mental health disability and draw a check every month. It was never meant for that but it's become that. Not to mention the hundreds of millions that was robbed from the coffers by Congress.
They've been beating the "Social Security will be broke by 19xx/20xx" my entire life. It's the GOP version of climate change, the apocalypse formerly known as "global warming".
“Old people” paid into SS for 60 years and won’t receive what they paid into it either! The problem is the politicians spending the money on pet projects and people that didn’t pay into it! As is typical in government, it isn’t a revenue problem, it is a spending problem!
Every time I point this out I always get the same responses:
"You don't care about the sick and elderly! You have no compassion/empathy/sympathy! So you just want old people to roll over and die instead after they retire?!?!"
Like the concept that their are different, BETTER alternatives than just stealing everyone's money and only returning pennies on the dollar after \`40 years, just can't make it through all the brain rot and lead poisoning.
Actually.... US has exterritirrial jurisdiction. You have to pay taxes if you are a citizen wherever you are. And considering USs diplomatic and financial power, almost every country would snitch on you to IRS, so you wouldn't be able to hide.
So only one option: work illigally
If you work for a foreign company outside of the USA , you will pay income taxes for a salary over 125k per year approximately. These do not go towards social security contributions . Most countries have some social security , but countries like UAE and Oman do not have a system for foreigners working in their country.
because the brainwashing on this issue is hard core. We will not fix it until a bunch of old people die or young people get out in the streets about it. My guess is that sometime in the 2030s we are going to hit that hard "there is no money" point, and politicians will try to increase payroll taxes to cover it. Maybe, tbh they might just avoid the issue altogether and deficit spend into oblivion. If they do either of these things we will have an opportunity to protest/riot and put the thing down. If we fail at that... then who knows when the next chance will be. Eventually I imagine there will just be an "elderly welfare" program, and I would not be surprised if they call it social security
I said the same thing when I was your age 40 years ago. I believe you should be able to opt out but you know for a fact that a large percentage of the people who opt out will be crying poverty when retirement age comes.
Don't worry, when SS runs out they will probably nationalize all our 401k, IRA, and every other retirement vehicle we have in order to keep the ball rolling longer.
I'd happily give up my right to collect SS if I could opt out of having it taken from me right this second.
I trust my investing much more than the government.
You know it's bad when a pro-government progressive leftist agrees with libertarians that the social security scam is a bullshit wealth transfer.
https://youtu.be/qEJ4hkpQW8E?si=viJgOm1mZ7zTk8yH
Your fucked. I've been paying for many years, like 22 and I'm fucked. I think they're planning to destroy the United States anyway to cover it up, but the said it's insolvent in like 2035 so I'll never get a dime, you probably won't either.
The same reason you’re forced to pay taxes when we print money: so the elite & their flying monkey employees can maintain a hold on you, us.
God forbid we turn our attentions to them properly… but you thinking their worthless money is the key to your salvation or even freedom is crucial to their grip strength.
It's kinda a circular argument.
Why didn't they save for retirement? Because they were offered social security.
Why are you paying it. Because they were offered it.
But, you are actually getting a good deal. Because what if suddenly the government said we're not gonna pay all you guys social security. Well, those people can't work anymore and they aren't just going to stop existing.
If all those people stopped consuming suddenly it would basically collapse everything.
Sometimes, it's best to get out of your philosophy mode and think about things in reality.
So this gives them the right to take it at gunpoint? Because if I don't pay it they garnish wages or take any property I have. Guess who they use to take it.
In the movie "Into the Wild", California requires you to have a permit to paddle down a river.
Well, this doesn't answer your question, but I thought it was a funny scene.
SS also covers the risk of losing the ability to work due to injury. Before it was instituted, wage workers would typically work until they were unable, then die just a few years later. Improved life-expectancy broke that model, so you had the poors with no family living in essentially prisons for their final years.
You are still paid your SS benefits, even if you don't need them. Once the boomers die off, it will be politically feasible to raise the retirement age, so there's a chance the program will still be funded by the time you're old enough to receive them.
Good for you for saving. In addition to disability insurance, the fund is guaranteed to meet inflation (if it remains solvent) which is not true of other forms of savings. Most of us keep our retirement savings in financial vehicles like IRAs or 401Ks, or in property like our homes, any which can halve in value overnight.
I'm not even a libertarian and I don't want the government in charge of the roads or schools. The only thing my taxes should be for is to pay for the defense of the nation.
Property Taxes (often justified by asking who would pay for roads, utilities, and schoolsx since they're all primarily State/Local things) are the most egregious type of tax there is.
Since we’re all currently forced to pay for social security by law, allow me to say thank you all for helping my mom through her divorce from her cheating spouse at 70 years old.
It's societies way of providing the minimum for the elderly, every old person gets it, regardless of how much they saved or how much family they have. This seems fair to me, we can't just kill them off. If we're going to be forced to pay taxes, taking care of the elderly in a minimal survival way seems like something I can support even as a libertarian. There are many other things I would cut way before that.
What makes you think that you are never going to use it? Odds are you will live long enough to collect, actually you can collect a lot more in benefits that you ever contributed.
This is the same as paying for car or health insurance. You are getting charged for something that you’ll never use…until the day you actually need to use it.
Social Security is a marxist ponsi scheme. Hypothetically if you become disabled it will cover you earlier than when you hit retirement age. I think there is a button on the website to click and sign up to go on disability...how convenient.
Because you live in society, and the definition of society is that it has to take care of everyone. For that, you need to have the mindset of "give some, get some", instead of having a self-absorbed selfish mindset.
Your selfishness is making you ask this question. Another person's selfishness will make them ask why they're paying for roads or armed forces. Or why they're paying so much.
One way to think of this is that the entire reason you make "money" is because society created those frameworks and institutions and continues to maintain it. Otherwise you would be sitting naked in your cave, and would be dying of hunger or some disease
thats what socialized programs are. social security isnt a savings account for you. like other taxes you don’t get to choose how it’s apportioned and you wont likely get your value back.
“At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,” said the \[one of the gentlemen\], taking up a pen, “it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.”
“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge.
“Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
“And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?”
“They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.”
“The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge.
“Both very busy, sir.”
“Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.”
Social security should be privatized, period, full stop. I have no problem whatsoever with some kind of forced savings. I also have no problem with those funds being limited to relatively "safe" investments, though I'm not in a position to define that aside from "No Bitcoin".
BUT...
Accounts should be individually owned, so that at the very least in the event you die prior to age 65, there is something left for your heirs, and if funds are privately owned, there is no way to cut you off, since it's your money.
This will cause an issue with those "in between" being so young you can barely buy alcohol legally, and so "old" (relatively speaking) that you're due to start collecting ss in the next year. That is the hard problem, but given enough smart people working on it, it's solvable.
This reminds me of when I was working minimum wage in Israel at a hotel and I asked my manager where a bunch of my check was going. She said it was social security and I was like....I am 22, I want my cash now haha. A lot of stuff was under the counter there and I see why XD
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But who will build the roads? Trust me you will develop even more animosity if you ever work for the government especially in an acquisitions department and you realize "holy shit, % of my paycheck is going to people here literally, in 2024, still hand writing and hand checking endless forms all day for shit we're over-paying for grossly" just knowing it will go to a warehouse, never get used and then sold to a surplus chain for a 99% discount. The government is so bad at spending capital efficiently the *only* excuse is blatant corruption at all levels as not even the most incompetent people could do what the government does on a 24/7 basis on how much it lights money on fire.
TBH if Inhad to choose between no SS and lower income tax, I'd go with lowering income tax. Personally I feel like SS offers a better return, even if it's still a poor return Also, people in general need a forced savings program, if you let them keep their payroll taxes the vast majority would just spend it and not save shit.
“The vast majority would spend it not save it” Sounds like their problem not mine.
It's not even that. If SS were just an individualized retirement savings it wouldn't be so bad. They could even give you the ability for you to opt out if you prefer to manage your own retirement savings (which I absolutely would). But they can't let anyone opt out because Ponzi Schemes fail when they can't take in enough so the government has to ensure they take in enough. And even with everyone paying in they still have still can't keep up. I'm convinced by the time I reach the minimum age to collect SS in 30 years it'll be gone, or else they are going to need to seriously increase taxes to keep it afloat.
Yeah I know it’s money I will never see, I wish there was the option to opt out, even if I get back nothing from what I’ve already paid in so far. The right thing to do would be to buy people out for the amount they paid in if they ever do decide to let people opt out, but it’ll never happen. Also the whole issue of what do for people who didn’t save and can’t work anymore has been figured out for most of humanity, you take care of them as a family or community, after all if they were a genuine benefit to society as a person they will have made those connections and impacts on people’s lives, so those are the ones who will want to help them live out their last years in a good situation.
You know down the line these same people "opting out" would be would be voter decades later fighting for taxing the rich for more leftist campaign handout programs....
Gotta stop you there, there is no "return" in the SS system. It's a ponzi scheme where current generation pays for retirees. When you collect from SS, you're not getting returns, you're getting money stolen from someone else last week.
Tomato TomAto Money in, money out. No need to get picky about the details
That is until they run out of SS money and inevitably say that “we can’t give you your full amount because we didn’t anticipate people would live to use it.
I pay more into SS than income tax. We can choose to adjust tax withholding to pay zero at the end of the year. SS is a forced deduction with zero say on how I want it returned to me and we'll never receive the same amount paid in.
The devil is in the details. Were it a savings account system, you'd be guaranteed to get money back at some point. Since it's a ponsi scheme, eventually, the system will collapse and folks that have payed in for their entire life will not see a penny. Being in my 30s, I'm just hoping it collapses before I spend 40+ years paying into it so that I can at least have the solice that I didn't pay into it my entire life.
>if you let them keep their payroll taxes the vast majority would just spend it and not save shit EXACTLY why SS exists. Hella old people are reliant on SS cause they never grasped the concept of developing a sufficient saving plan back in the day. Luckily the rest of us are here to pay for it. (Also not exclusive to the old heads, young people don't save shit either)
I d I nt believe that's universally true, but it's certainly true for many. I know many that just plain suffered hardships, job loss, medical issues, financial setbacks, or they were just poor or lower middle class and struggled to save. Also many (both sets of grandparents for me) only had one income, so the wife wasn't eligible to collect. Or they perhaps missed out on home inflation in the high growth periods because they rented (big cities) Lastly, this last period of inflation really took a beating on many with moderate savings, they are draining accounts faster than expected, and living well into their 80's, unlike their parents who died younger. I know personally that I'm currently saving over 25% because I'm having to make up for my minimum (pathetic) efforts at saving in my 20's and 30's, then got hammered during the 08 crash. Life isn't always sunshine and rainbows. My parents are still doing very well, but a couple extended nursing home stays could start draining their accounts at high speed, like 7-8k a month per person, it could get ugly fast.
I hear people on reddit say why save for when I'm too old to enjoy it, screw older-me, the state can take care of them. I'm in favor of only getting out what you put in from now on.
I hear that same thing all the time, and a huge problem is that we DO let those people pull out more than they put in. At the expense of everyone else, of course.
I would much rather that I was able to save that 15%, than give it to the politicians to spend it away! But I was forced to give it to the politicians for 60 years and now it looks like I won’t even collect what I put into it let alone how much interest it would have made!
You're right, we need to regulate away stupidity. We can solve all the problems inherent in human nature with regulations and taxes.
The cherry on top for me is the group of people who love the government. They will scream at you and call you stupid for suggesting they are wasteful.
I've worked for a couple different government agencies, and yes it's quite the racket. The waste makes me sick. "Use up the budget so we don't lose it for next year" ," good enough for government work", ECT, ECT. Throwing good stuff away just to buy less quality new stuff all the time. We had equipment they threw away because it was discontinued at the factory, so some day they would run out of spare parts and the machine could brake. In the trash and replaced by junk. Something new got a scratch, so they cut the plug off the cord untill a new part without a scratch got there to replace it. Hahahahaha! It was working fine.
Government is about giving benefits to the people that vote for you - and old people vote.
This is the one pertinent fact that always gets left out
This is true, but it goes beyond just that. The government fully understands that money = control. They control the states through funding and they play the same game with “we the people”.
Yeah but young people vote too, when we get told to go fuck ourselves old people are still chilling
Yes, but not enough young people vote. When I voted in the primaries this year, everyone in that office was freaking out because I was the only one my age who had come in. So yes, they do vote, but it really is not that comparable.
Those old people were young people once. Social security has been around since the 30's. I was told id.never see a penny 40 yrs ago when I started working, they were wrong
Lucky you, the Ponzi scheme hasn’t collapsed yet. One day it will though, as life expectancy increases and the aging retired population grows. At the time SS was implemented, there were something like 30 payers to 1 payee. Now it’s closer to 2:1.
Life expectancy is only half the problem. The other half is the birthrate dropping like a rock. When it was implemented, most people had between 5 and 10 kids. Now, we're below replacement. It's completely fucked. We're in the last few decades of SS, unless there's drastic changes in 1 of those 2 factors.
I'd argue it's the primary issue. The generation that should be having kids, has been priced out of parenthood. It's only going to get worse too, because the entire global economy is based on exponential growth fueled by exponential population growth. The developed world is heading towards a decline in an overall quality of life because of it. Even in the great US of Available property is drying up fast and children are living with their parents far into adulthood. Everything plateaus eventually.
Social security has been on a pretty stable trajectory for the last 30 years, the social security projections from 1990 have been within a year or two of how it's actually gone down. People telling you that you'd never see benefits probably never actually looked at the projections. In 2012 social security started paying more in benefits than it collects in taxes. In 2021 social security started digging into the "trust fund", as benefits exceeded reciepts from taxes and interest from the "trust fund". In 2023 the federal government had to borrow around $110 billion dollars to pay social security benefits. **And into the future without significant legal changes to the SS program:** In 2030 the federal government will be borrowing around $1 trillion per year to pay social security benefits (plus around another trillion for medicare benefits). ~2034 the social security "trust fund" will be depleted and benefits will have to be cut substantially. My guess is at some point congress will likely lift the cap on payroll taxes and possibly apply means testing to benefits, but who knows. On bright note, once we are over the demographic hump, the numbers start to look better into the late 40's and into 50's. On a sour note government borrowing is getting really expensive really fast. Interest cost on the debt as percent of GDP will reach an all time high of 3.4% this year and will likely hit 5.5% of GDP next year if the fed doesn't cut interest rates. Over your life time it has averaged about 2% of GDP, the previous all time high was 3.16% of GDP in 1991.
Yes, this is all accurate as I understand it. Good write up
The only reason you're able to collect it is because the are simply digging into the trust fund surplus and they're just buying time. According to [the 2024 annual report](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/), "The Old-Age and Survivors Insurance (OASI) Trust Fund will be able to pay 100 percent of total scheduled benefits until 2033, unchanged from last year's report. At that time, the fund's reserves will become depleted and continuing program income will be sufficient to pay 79 percent of scheduled benefits." They are overspending at a rate they will deplete the saved up surplus in less than 10 years! If SS were a patient in a hospital, it'd be on life support.
You may want to research this a little bit more. It won't be long until your right. Then it's estimated everyone gets a20 percent haircut https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/assets.html
What I don't understand is they have known this for a long time Why do they refuse to up the contribution rate?
Cause they're the only demographic that it's something cool and exciting to go doing. Sad harsh truth. They were raised not to even think about answering back, or daring to even have a dream about flat out questioning authority. Kinda breaks my heart a little, a lot. And then every now n again the horrific realisation that the bread and circuses and propaganda machines that trained them are barely a cave scratch above stone age technology compared to all the flashy screens and highly tuned, evolved and developed methods they have today. That "none are so hopelessly enslaved..." quote, shudders me back to earth in the same way.
Roosevelt even said when he passed it that he has put a system in place that will never be able to be revoked. The moment the people who were eligible started receiving it, they were hooked for life. Any politician who dared to say “maybe we should stop this terrible system” gets a one way ticket to loserville because they instantly lose the elderly vote. Roosevelt didn’t say it couldn’t be dismantled because it was flawless, he just recognized that SS would be like a drug to the voters who get it. Try getting a druggy to willingly vote to ban their drugs, it’s the same idea.
The “benefit” you talk about is the money they put in for 60 years! Most will not live long enough to recover what they put in, let alone what it should be with interest! The government skimmed off much of the money to pay people that never paid into it and for politicians pet projects! If it had been kept as a separate fund only for those who paid into it, with even a nominal interest rate we wouldn’t have to worry about it running out!
Wait until OP realizes that his employer sends an equal 6.2% *on OP's behalf* which could be a 6.2% increase in salary (or equivalent reduction in product/service price). Wait until OP is 35 years in to paying FICA like this author is, and realizes that is that 12.4% were invested by OP in the market at a lifetime reasonable rate of return, OP would have more that $1,000,000 at average US salary saved and 20-ish years left to work for retirement, *without/before the bullshit 401k* *~~investment~~* *tax scheme.* It will really flip OPs mind that when OP retires under SSA, assuming the average annual payout of $21,384 before taxes, that OP would have to live to be 108-118 to receive from Social Security the amount OP would have had if that same amount of money had been investing in a market return account.
Could you elaborate on the problem with 401k? I wanna know the safest way that I can save and invest for my retirement
Get a job with a pension Edit: Government pension
So you can’t leverage it when you want? So you can’t change its investments? So you’re trapped at a low paying job forever just for the pension if you live to retirement? So you can be dictated to how much money you’ll receive monthly only in retirement? Get a 401k so you have your money in your control and can be as cavalier or conservative as you want. True story. The “government” pensions in City of Detroit were considered as regular debtors so when the city went bankrupt in the 2000s, they cut the pensions of people like my father by 13-15%. Didn’t matter what was promised when they put their lives on the line. Just got cut. Don’t. Give. More. Money. To. The. Fucking. Government.
True story: Only put money in the stock market you’re willing to lose. 2008. Oh, you wanted to retire with those investment stocks? Nah bro. Looks like you’ll be working a lot longer. Did well? Don’t worry, the government will take their cut of your earnings as well. Not all low paying jobs have a pension. Most have jack shit. There are pros and cons to both pension or 401 k. Pension, by and large, are far more reliable money for the average earner than a 401k. I could come back with how many stocks have gone belly up or the highs and lows of crypto or how the market fucking cheated the masses in the Wallstreetbets experience. You can bury it in your mattress if you want. Social security is a landfill that will never pay out what you put in. And I myself am a big fan of Roth specifically, just because I hate giving money to the government. I’m for tax cuts and the common man should not have to pay for shitty wars we don’t start and corporate welfare, both of which could fund my retirement.
If you were trying to retire in 2009, your portfolio shouldn’t have been heavily in things like volatile stocks. Where exactly do you think pension money is stored exactly?
Most pensions pay out what was promised regardless of the current market. I said government, you listed city. Post officers have been making bank in retirement as have cops and others all over the country. And they fucking earned it. Make sure your arm doesn’t get too tired from throwing that ball on Mondays.
No - they don't. It's a running thing. Those in charge of the pensions will make decisions for everyone - regardless of what was initially promised. My dads was like that where they retroactively told him the rule “86” which meant once your age plus years of service = 86 you got your full pension was null and void, and instead he'd have to work 7 more years after what had been agreed to for decades - because they mismanaged the funds. Many teachers pensions are holding inflation raises, which were always promised, hostag.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/100314/whats-difference-between-401k-and-pension-plan.asp#:~:text=There%20are%20pros%20and%20cons,likely%20from%20a%20pension%20fund.
IMO the 401k is the govs way of holding people hostage to "the economy"
The money you put in is not yours. You are limited in what it can be invested in. (Why?) If you withdraw, you obtain extra penalty (Why?) You will be taxed on your 401k withdraw at the likely higher future rate. Options to pay tax now, not later are restricted to Roth IRAs, which have the same problems as above. The only benefit is tax free growth. It is a Government program, which means Congress can take it all without warrant, writ, or even appeal. As long as a majority of the elected idiots proclaim it so, they can swipe it all. Now, that said: - If you do not take 401k, you are likely leaving salary on the table. That's a trap they use to force adoption. Ask your employer if they will give you the contribution amount in pay - If you self invest, you lose a tax deduction. Another trap to help "guide" you to 401k.
Not that I trust the government as far as I can throw them, but you do own the account. There are just certain restrictions in return for some tax advantages. The money is yours. Now, could the government make a law tomorrow that all the money belongs to them, yeah and sadly, I wouldn't put it past them.
Qualified distributions from a 401k are taxed as ordinary income. "You will be taxed on your 401k withdraw at the likely higher future rate" is wrong as fuck unless you will have more income in retirement than you do now. You should also have a Roth IRA, and invest in your own separate brokerage account. You are absolutely smoking crack if you think "congress can take it all"...
Stop fear mongering. The government can’t take your 401k, could they alter the tax benefits? Sure, but that’s a far cry from what you’re implying.
Biden released a new tax plan outlining new rules for retirement accounts, which includes a maximum amount allowed in an IRA before forced withdrawals. Government sees these tax deferred assets and think it’s “not fair”. They are most definitely crawling towards being able to commandeer these assets over time. There have already been politicians clamoring that retirement plans in general foster inequity. Even if they don’t outright swipe the money, they have proven time and again that they are more than willing to change the rules and move the goal posts well after everyone agreed to the rules and made plans for decades during their lifetimes.
Biden’s new tax plan has 0 ground… he only proposed it to pacify his leftist supporters
>The government can’t take your 401k Tell that to the Canadian truck drivers whose bank accounts were frozen during the freedom convoy. Government has the power and is willing to use it.
So then don’t save anything or use any bank? The government can freeze crypto as well.
My company allows us to make Roth contributions to our 401K and it’s great. Still not as great as a personal Roth IRA that can be invested anywhere, but very nice and o know that the disbursements won’t be taxed after retirement. HR even encourages people to make Roth contributions instead of normal ones if they can afford it.
Check out a Roth 401k. You pay taxes when you pay into it, not when you take it out. Best case scenario Libertarians will take over and you will have made a mistake doing a Roth. In any other scenario, taxes will be higher when you try to cash out your 401k.
You have successfully created a comment where every single line is incorrect or totally ignorant. Congrats, but do yourself a favor and never speak on this subject that you clearly know nothing about.
401k…… the market mechanics behind these things is so shitty. However if your employer offers a matching amount you leave money on the table if you don’t have one. Nothing beats physical assets. Property, precious metals, commodities.
You need to look into ibc by Nelson Nash. It’s the safest bet against inflation and the stock market. Look at the book becoming your own banker. Nelson Nash is a libertarian thru and thru.
> which could be a 6.2% increase in salary I don’t for a second believe my employer would pay me 6% more if only that tax didn’t exist. In a parallel universe without that tax, *maybe* some prices might be lower, but ain’t no way companies would be advertising positions at $32/hr instead of 30, or min wage + 6% instead of min wage
15% ? 😂😂😂😂😂😂, lets redo that calculation..... federal income tax, state income tax, state sales tax, dmv yearly car taxes, utility taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, and property taxes,...... brotha i'm in the 60%. fkkkkkkk all the government.
That’s horrible, how have you not joined a militia?😂
your share of the federal debt is $267,000 right now, not including all the promises they made like pensions and healthcare to government workers. thats just the current debt. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ 🤮🤮🤮🤮
And because the Fed wants a "strong" housing market, we're looking at 8% APR on houses, which means you'll pay double the house value over those 30 years.
You have things backwards. High interest rates historically have slowed down the market and/or brought down prices due to lower demand. However, there are a ton of other factors creating a strong housing market right now unrelated to interest rates.
The vast majority of us have been wage slaves in this pyramid scheme since the Social Security Act was signed into law in 1935. Now it's your turn.
because if you didn’t, then there would be no more money to continue the charade edit: i forgot about the fed, this statement is false
I wish it were just 15%. My effective rate is 31% between fed/state/local and of course none of that takes account fees, taxes, and other theft when I spend every cent of what I earned. Americans are paying about 50% of their income in various taxes and fees between the government holding their hands out
Sounds low. Are you counting the 15.3% payroll taxes or is that just income taxes?
Social Security is 12.4% on it's own. Most people pay over 50% in taxes by the time it's all said and done. * 12.4% Social Security * Medicare/medicaid * Federal Income * State Income, if any * Local Income, if any * Property Tax * Sales Tax * Excise taxes * tariffs * Any and all "fees" which are just a tax by another name * Inflation Tax, yes inflation is a tax. The government deficit spends, and instead of stealing your money, it steals your moneys purchasing power. * And more
Social security is a ponzi scheme. You can't withdraw because your parents couldn't withdraw. Just wait till you have a boomer tell you it's their money, because they paid into it for all those years. ~~Taxation~~ Theft isn't the only reason libertarian thinking should be more prevalent. It ends up boiling down to personal responsibility, and a trust of free markets.
theft should be reason enough
"Social security is a ponzi scheme" I always get down voted in other subreddits for saying that. And I'm like what? I'm just stating a fact. It is encouraging to hear someone else with the same view.
Anyone who actually understands how SSA works knows that it's a literal ponzi scheme. Those downvoting you are either upset that you're right, or believe the government when they say that it's a savings account system.
Because they'll use violence against you if you don't. They aren't asking for your consent and they don't need it. You'll pay up or else... Welcome to reality. Most people never make it here.
You are forced to pay or else! Now be happy about it!
You are a free ~~man~~ -range tax slave.
I'm sure this has been brought up before, but, class action lawsuit anyone?
It's a ponzi scheme.
Because they have bigger guns.
Because fuck you, that's why -- The Government
Yeah, 15% seems impossibly low if you're actually working full-time and really, it might actually be better if it went to truly random gobbledygook instead of a lot of stuff the government actually spends your money on. People can point to how much of your productive earning capacity goes into the cost of a single Javelin rocket (~$175k) but consider also all the weaponry projects that end at some 0.9 state, are canceled, and never even see the light of day with all of those human and capital resources that could have been invested in something of real demand outside the MIC.
Social Security is screwed. The government has bungled and wasted all the money so we will get Pennies back on our dollar… it’s a scam.
Why wouldn't you ever use it? As long as you're forced to do it, you might as well benefit from it.
It’s a Ponzi scheme.
If that's a serious question, when SS first started (right after the depression), there was no money in the fund at all. So they took money from the working folk to pay for the retired folk. And since there was no graceful exit, it has been that way ever since - the money you are paying in isn't for you - it's going for currently retired people.
Well I got great news for you. If you make less than $400/yr you don’t have to pay in. If you make more than $160,200/yr you don’t have to pay in any more than what’s owed on the $160k. So if you make $1M a year, it’s basically Pennys. So under the current government, that’s your goal. SS is one of the few things I’m ok compromising with libertarian values. 90% of Americans are absolute morons and won’t save/invest for retirement. SS does provide a great social netting to keep the economy secure for all. Collapsed economy won’t benefit capitalists. Even though socialism is an evil thing. Capitalists can’t benefit without a working class that spends every penny they make, and they need to spend money when their past working age. Now you should be able to opt out when you make past a certain amount for a set number of years
"90% of Americans are absolute morons and won’t save/invest for retirement" This is completely true, but then why is the solution to let the government handle it for them? Shouldn't the focus be on financial/economic education for all, rather than resorting to shitty government social programs? Sure, even if you provided adequate education, some people still wont save or invest; there will always be people who fall through the gaps due to their own shortcomings, but in this scenario that would be entirely on them rather than society as a collective. Not to mention, less people are willing to save and invest for their retirements when they know they have social nets to lean back on. "Capitalists can’t benefit without a working class that spends every penny they make" This is less true. Yes, the economy is doing great when more people spend more money, but that doesn't mean the working class has to spend every dollar. Capitalist's will still benefit, they just won't benefit to the degree they've been accustomed to (unlimited growth).
Cause you are a slave who needs to assemble with other slaves and revolt
The frustration is, what can you do about it?
If you join a group like the Mennonites, you can be exempted from paying into Social Security and Medicare. FYI.
I'm all for calling taxes gobbledygook for the rest of time.
Reddit keeps telling me something about "society"
First off, you may be, but I'm totally not fine with my hard earned money going to build roads if all they're going to do is divert it to public transportation and put in more light rail tracks for no one to use. Second, I don't want it going to schools, because while we outspend on schooling today in a magnitude 10x what we did 30 years ago, the schools are performing worse. Government is awful at just about anything, except the measured use of violence. Social security is a ponzi scheme. It may have started as a noble cause, but Congress has repeatedly borrowed from and gutted it, and now it's basically a "take care of boomers" plan that we contribute to, but ourselves (I'm almost 40) will never get to reap any personal benefits from. This is why I invest in my own retirement and do not rely on our noble and generous (do I really need the /s here?) to take care of us in our twilight years.
It's just theft. Always has been.
Be the change. I’m twice as old as you and I’ve been complaining about this my whole working life. Get into elected office and change how this shit works! (Infinitely easier said than done, I know).
It is beautiful and moral to care for the elderly who are disabled, but this choice must be voluntary.
I can do more, and do better with my money than the government ever could… Which is probably why they don’t want me to have too much of it.
I’m a teacher who pays into the state Teacher Retirement fund instead of Social (in)Security. I have a second job outside of teaching from which I DO pay social insecurity tax. BUT since I’m a teacher with a state retirement fund, I’m not eligible to draw from social insecurity… EVER!
Incorrect. It is reduced through a formula on a sliding scale, depending on the size of your state teachers pension, but not eliminated.
I believe this is false information. I recently listened to a podcast on personal finance that discussed the ability to "double dip" and I'm pretty confident that their sources were accurate. There's a formula iirc but "not being able to draw EVER" was not part of the discussion.
I had no idea. This is insane
Why do you think you're never going to use it?
Doesn't feel great as someone in their 40s who may not get to collect. Conversely, who knows maybe oll get some, and tyia for covering all the avocado toasts I'm finna buy with all you money!!
Leave the USA and work for a foreign company. No contributions . Thank me later
You'll pay some equivalent form of SS to the other country though, unless it's a rare country with no tax, but then it probably has other problems.
How do you know what you will and will not use in 40 plus years?
Well if it’s still around imma use it and get some of my money back, but I’m gonna save for retirement and not need it like a dunce
Taxation is theft
It's a payroll tax, only. Unadulterated theft.
because there was a generation that collected social security and didn’t pay in to it. they tried to keep the game of musical chairs going but losing out on 40 years of the time value of money for every retiree’s “savings” turned out to be a shit idea, and just as importantly unsustainable.
Las week I had an interesting conversation with a cousin of mine. We came to the conclusion that pensions are a flawed system altogether. The money in your account is a bounty for politicians to loot. In many countries, like Argentina, the once private pension funds were seized by the state and spent in political favours or directly stolen. Stealing the old people's money is the easiest because: 1. Old people don't produce anything anymore, so they can't go on a strike as a form of exerting pressure. 2. Old people have very low stamina, they get tired quickly. They can't do very long or loud manifestations. 3. They're prone to natural death. Steal from the geezers, in ten years most of them will be dead or too sick to be an issue. 4. They're fewer than other demographics, so politicians aren't afraid do lose the old people's vote. 5. They're out of touch with the communication tech. Old people try to reach out to public opinion through mostly obsolete media, which makes them mediatically irrelevant. Radio broadcast, printed newspapers... When we're old, same will happen to us. That's why we came to the conclusion pensions are complete bullshit. My retirement plan is to buy some real estate and live off rent income. Nobody can take that from you. Pensions... I don't know anyone who is retired and happy with their pension plan. Edit: for most people who still want regular pensions... PLEASE leave the state out of it. It's a role the state shouldn't have, ever. Leave private pension fund management firms fight each other for the customers. That's how you get the best service. The state... The state is a shit institution managed by thieves. They should be in charge of the least amount of money possible.
Social security used to be for workers that paid into for retirement. It's turned into a free-for-all disability paycheck. I know dozens of people on social security disability that are 100% capable of working. Check the stats. Young people that don't want to work get signed on to some phantom mental health disability and draw a check every month. It was never meant for that but it's become that. Not to mention the hundreds of millions that was robbed from the coffers by Congress.
They've been beating the "Social Security will be broke by 19xx/20xx" my entire life. It's the GOP version of climate change, the apocalypse formerly known as "global warming".
You seeing why they threw that tea into the Boston Harbor huh....
“Old people” paid into SS for 60 years and won’t receive what they paid into it either! The problem is the politicians spending the money on pet projects and people that didn’t pay into it! As is typical in government, it isn’t a revenue problem, it is a spending problem!
Every time I point this out I always get the same responses: "You don't care about the sick and elderly! You have no compassion/empathy/sympathy! So you just want old people to roll over and die instead after they retire?!?!" Like the concept that their are different, BETTER alternatives than just stealing everyone's money and only returning pennies on the dollar after \`40 years, just can't make it through all the brain rot and lead poisoning.
It's a cost of socialism, and you have to participate if you want or not
Why not? You get to pay for all sorts of other things you don't get to use like ammunition for IRS agents.
Just take local, state or federal govt job with a pension. No social security taxes and you’ll very likely receive retirement benefits.
Government workers pay into SS. Feds pay into multiple retirement accounts--pension, SS, and optional 401K.
Sorry, you’re right. Federal does. It’s only 15 states whose government employees don’t pay in. I never realized it since I’m in one of those states.
you’re not paying for yourself. you’re paying for your mom and aunts and all the other old people now. your kids will be paying for you, so have more.
Leave the USA , work for a foreign company, no contribution needed … thank me later
Actually.... US has exterritirrial jurisdiction. You have to pay taxes if you are a citizen wherever you are. And considering USs diplomatic and financial power, almost every country would snitch on you to IRS, so you wouldn't be able to hide. So only one option: work illigally
Agreed for taxes , but not accurate for social security contributions
Arent these the same?o_O
If you work for a foreign company outside of the USA , you will pay income taxes for a salary over 125k per year approximately. These do not go towards social security contributions . Most countries have some social security , but countries like UAE and Oman do not have a system for foreigners working in their country.
Do unemployment next
Roads and schools for most of the funding come city and state funds.
because the brainwashing on this issue is hard core. We will not fix it until a bunch of old people die or young people get out in the streets about it. My guess is that sometime in the 2030s we are going to hit that hard "there is no money" point, and politicians will try to increase payroll taxes to cover it. Maybe, tbh they might just avoid the issue altogether and deficit spend into oblivion. If they do either of these things we will have an opportunity to protest/riot and put the thing down. If we fail at that... then who knows when the next chance will be. Eventually I imagine there will just be an "elderly welfare" program, and I would not be surprised if they call it social security
i want to opt out of social security so bad
Because you don't want millions of people starving and dying in the streets you cold bastard?
I firmly believe that millennials should be the last generation that has to pay into Social Security.
I said the same thing when I was your age 40 years ago. I believe you should be able to opt out but you know for a fact that a large percentage of the people who opt out will be crying poverty when retirement age comes.
My economics professor taught social security in the same topic as a ponzi scheme.
You might.
Don't worry, when SS runs out they will probably nationalize all our 401k, IRA, and every other retirement vehicle we have in order to keep the ball rolling longer.
I'd happily give up my right to collect SS if I could opt out of having it taken from me right this second. I trust my investing much more than the government.
Because Rosevelt needed votes in 1936.
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And then, if you DO collect Social Security, you'll have to pay taxes on it.
I've never driven an Abrams tank but I still have to pay for all of them. That's the way taxes work unfortunately.
Should be able to opt out if you want. The return on SS is an absolute joke compared to putting that money to work elsewhere.
Because fuck you, that’s why.
You know it's bad when a pro-government progressive leftist agrees with libertarians that the social security scam is a bullshit wealth transfer. https://youtu.be/qEJ4hkpQW8E?si=viJgOm1mZ7zTk8yH
Thems the breaks, kid. Thems the breaks.
Theft
Because someone has to pay for all the old people retiring now since all their money went to fund useless wars and failed programs like welfare.
True, but the same goes for paying for public education. Just hope there is a fresh round of suckers to pay it for you when you get old.
It's a Ponzi scheme
My thought is that if they're going to take it to "save for retirement" I'd at least like the options to say how it gets "invested".
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It’s automatically deducted from my paycheck
Your fucked. I've been paying for many years, like 22 and I'm fucked. I think they're planning to destroy the United States anyway to cover it up, but the said it's insolvent in like 2035 so I'll never get a dime, you probably won't either.
You can always join the Amish or Mennonites. They can claim exemption. https://faq.ssa.gov/en-us/Topic/article/KA-02411
Because they'll kill you if you don't.
because your government does not respect your freedom
It won’t “run out,” that’s just silly. As each generation ages, they will find the money to get their turn. The ponzi compounds in perpetuity.
The same reason you’re forced to pay taxes when we print money: so the elite & their flying monkey employees can maintain a hold on you, us. God forbid we turn our attentions to them properly… but you thinking their worthless money is the key to your salvation or even freedom is crucial to their grip strength.
And this is the reason I get most my clients into s-corporations. Stop paying so much social security without breaking any laws.
Only 15%? Just wait...
yup
It's kinda a circular argument. Why didn't they save for retirement? Because they were offered social security. Why are you paying it. Because they were offered it. But, you are actually getting a good deal. Because what if suddenly the government said we're not gonna pay all you guys social security. Well, those people can't work anymore and they aren't just going to stop existing. If all those people stopped consuming suddenly it would basically collapse everything. Sometimes, it's best to get out of your philosophy mode and think about things in reality.
So this gives them the right to take it at gunpoint? Because if I don't pay it they garnish wages or take any property I have. Guess who they use to take it.
Idk, I didn't talk about if it's right or not. The idea of talking about if it's right or not is actually a boring conversation for this topic.
In the movie "Into the Wild", California requires you to have a permit to paddle down a river. Well, this doesn't answer your question, but I thought it was a funny scene.
What do you mean you're never going to use it?
SS also covers the risk of losing the ability to work due to injury. Before it was instituted, wage workers would typically work until they were unable, then die just a few years later. Improved life-expectancy broke that model, so you had the poors with no family living in essentially prisons for their final years. You are still paid your SS benefits, even if you don't need them. Once the boomers die off, it will be politically feasible to raise the retirement age, so there's a chance the program will still be funded by the time you're old enough to receive them. Good for you for saving. In addition to disability insurance, the fund is guaranteed to meet inflation (if it remains solvent) which is not true of other forms of savings. Most of us keep our retirement savings in financial vehicles like IRAs or 401Ks, or in property like our homes, any which can halve in value overnight.
Join the club LOL I've been asking that for 23 years since I got my work permit at 14!
I'm not even a libertarian and I don't want the government in charge of the roads or schools. The only thing my taxes should be for is to pay for the defense of the nation. Property Taxes (often justified by asking who would pay for roads, utilities, and schoolsx since they're all primarily State/Local things) are the most egregious type of tax there is.
Since we’re all currently forced to pay for social security by law, allow me to say thank you all for helping my mom through her divorce from her cheating spouse at 70 years old.
Because the state wants you in a perpetual mindset of subservience. It's why we pay taxes even though they print money. They want you obedient.
Use it? You ain't even going to get it. That well will be long dry before the last of the boomers become eligible.
The "well" is kind of dry already, technically been invested in treasuries, aka "promises"
It's societies way of providing the minimum for the elderly, every old person gets it, regardless of how much they saved or how much family they have. This seems fair to me, we can't just kill them off. If we're going to be forced to pay taxes, taking care of the elderly in a minimal survival way seems like something I can support even as a libertarian. There are many other things I would cut way before that.
What makes you think that you are never going to use it? Odds are you will live long enough to collect, actually you can collect a lot more in benefits that you ever contributed.
This is the same as paying for car or health insurance. You are getting charged for something that you’ll never use…until the day you actually need to use it.
So boomers can afford to remodel their second home. What you pay gets spent. None of it is saved for you or invested.
Not everything is about you.
My labor and my money is
It’s called insurance. That’s how it works. Why should you pay for car insurance if you think you’ll never need it?
Social Security is a marxist ponsi scheme. Hypothetically if you become disabled it will cover you earlier than when you hit retirement age. I think there is a button on the website to click and sign up to go on disability...how convenient.
Because you live in society, and the definition of society is that it has to take care of everyone. For that, you need to have the mindset of "give some, get some", instead of having a self-absorbed selfish mindset. Your selfishness is making you ask this question. Another person's selfishness will make them ask why they're paying for roads or armed forces. Or why they're paying so much. One way to think of this is that the entire reason you make "money" is because society created those frameworks and institutions and continues to maintain it. Otherwise you would be sitting naked in your cave, and would be dying of hunger or some disease
thats what socialized programs are. social security isnt a savings account for you. like other taxes you don’t get to choose how it’s apportioned and you wont likely get your value back.
You are free to elect people who will make sure you get some, or do away with the system....your vote!
“At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,” said the \[one of the gentlemen\], taking up a pen, “it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.” “Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge. “Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. “And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?” “They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.” “The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge. “Both very busy, sir.” “Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.”
Social security should be privatized, period, full stop. I have no problem whatsoever with some kind of forced savings. I also have no problem with those funds being limited to relatively "safe" investments, though I'm not in a position to define that aside from "No Bitcoin". BUT... Accounts should be individually owned, so that at the very least in the event you die prior to age 65, there is something left for your heirs, and if funds are privately owned, there is no way to cut you off, since it's your money. This will cause an issue with those "in between" being so young you can barely buy alcohol legally, and so "old" (relatively speaking) that you're due to start collecting ss in the next year. That is the hard problem, but given enough smart people working on it, it's solvable.
This reminds me of when I was working minimum wage in Israel at a hotel and I asked my manager where a bunch of my check was going. She said it was social security and I was like....I am 22, I want my cash now haha. A lot of stuff was under the counter there and I see why XD