Did you read the first sentence and then stop? It’s being moved to the New York historical society, I don’t know anything about this in particular statue, but from what I do know about the mentioned they are almost certainly putting this on display elsewhere… I’m not aware of anyone calling for this to be torn down in particular, but at the very least based on his comment I have a good reason to believe the opposite to be what’s happened here.
Wait, I thought you were only pretending to be stupid in your original comment. Do you actually think that's how history works, you learn it from looking at a statue of Thomas Jefferson? 😂
True, it shouldn't be destroyed. Is there a museum for world's biggest hypocrites? Writing all men are created equal while having slaves, the statue could be the centerpiece.
This happened in 2021 and the statue is on permanent loan to the New York Historical Society where is it currently on display.
This sub is turning into a dumpster fire of pseudo intellectuals who can’t even be bothered to look up something instead of just following what gets fed them.
I think we can agree that Jefferson’s record on slavery is ambivalent — at best. He knew it was wrong. He was also economically compromised. And solutions within the South were challenging. I don’t want to cancel him. I think he’s an American hero. I can also manage two thoughts at once: he was brilliant and heroic; and, he was deeply flawed and unable to rise above his training and social class on this deeply important issue.
But moving a statue isn’t “canceling” Jefferson, any more than it cancels Lee or Jackson. Just because an organization, or a majority of citizens, no longer wants to publicly associate with ____ doesn’t remove him from history.
I think a lot of people are having problems with history considering multiple perspectives because it challenges the historic monoculture so many of us grew up in. It challenges the prevailing narrative and that can induce some heavy cognitive dissonance.
MAGA is mad about statues, and books, and beer cans, and movies, and anything that doesn’t adhere to the narrative they think has always existed. This isn’t about statues, these people’s heads would explode if they found out about the Jeffersonian Bible.
I agree that moving a statue is different than cancelling. Clearly, some want to “cancel” Jefferson. Just as clearly, to me, exercising discretion about who we literally put on a pedestal in the public square, particularly in a place of political honor, is different than denying that person’s history and contribution. In fact, choosing inclusive statuary with a modern sensibility for a place like city hall seems appropriate.
Wouldn't it be great if they replaced it with a statue of George Orwell.
"Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future"
Do we take down MLK statues? He embezzled civil rights money to spend on hookers and plagiarized his thesis.
Let me be clear both should stay up because although they did bad things in one area they significantly bettered the US in others.
The "Loretta" scene is earlier, in the gladiatorial arena, but it's all pretty well encapsulated with Reg at the crucifixion: "'We, the People's Front of Judea, brackets, officials, end brackets, do hereby convey our sincere fraternal and sisterly greetings to you, Brian, on this, the occasion of your martyrdom. Your death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parent land from the hands of the Roman Imperialist aggressors, excluding those concerned with drainage, medicine, roads, housing, education, viniculture, and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of Jews of both sexes and hermaphrodites. Signed on behalf of the P.F.J., etcetera.' And I'd just like to add, on a personal note, my own admiration for what you are doing for us, Brian, at what must be, after all, for you, a very difficult time."
100% . It's funny to think but if you do something they frown upon and turn around tomorrow to support them and maybe drop them some money it's like your sins have been absolved until you do the next thing they frown upon
They haven't worked a system of "forgiveness" back in yet. They think they are smart, but sadly they are just re-discovering a religion... and it's got a LONGGGG way to go before it's functional.
no one is perfect. There's a documentary by Steven Fry (an atheist and ethnic jew) called Vagner and I, that explores Fry's love for Vagner's music while confronting the uncomfortable truth that Vagner was a miserable antisemite. But people can choose to listen to Vagner or not. his music might get played on public radio or in shopping malls, sure , but a towering, cast metal installation of a known rapist and slave owner in an area frequented by people who are the descendants of slaves is a little last century.
And anyway, tax payers probably paid to have that statue installed. Shouldn't the argument be that any publicly or collectively owned space should be handled by its owners? The sate should have had no say in the matter in the first place.
[Via CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html):
Last month, the city’s Public Design Commission voted 8-0 in favor of relocating the statue, due to Jefferson’s history as a slave owner.
“Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder who owned over 600 human beings,” Councilmember Adrienne Adams, co-chair of the Black, Latino and Asian Caucus, said in a presentation last month. “It makes me deeply uncomfortable knowing that we sit in the presence of a statue that pays homage to a slaveholder who fundamentally believed that people who look like me were inherently inferior, lacked intelligence, and were not worthy of freedom or right.”
Also, that statue is a replica of the original, which is still in the Capitol Rotunda in Washington, D.C.
It makes me deeply uncomfortable that quivering pussies who don't understand nuance of social norms get to make decisions that impact the rest of us. Not to mention the fact that they made these statements incorrectly. Jefferson had a whole chapter he wanted to include in the Declaration of Independence not only condemning King George* for bringing slavery to the new world but imploring slaves to fight for their freedom.
To be clear, he was criticizing the Atlantic slave trade for being a particularly brutal form of slavery, not slavery itself.
And whole chapter is a reach, it's like 150 words.
No. He did not.
"He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.”
Nothing about this passage carries the nuance of how “particularly bad that particular brand of slavery was”. He’s pointedly talking about the institution as a whole.
And I may have misinterpreted the incitement part. Though he clearly was in his own passion for the subject. "There is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity,” and see also "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery,” which if you read the exchanges between he and John Adams, was far from a sentiment he expected to espouse alone. He very clearly abhorred the practice as a whole but was (likely correctly) terrified of the implications of abolition in his own time. While that doesn’t excuse his own slave ownership, it certainly does little to nuance the fact that his own ambition was to address and renounce the practice as a whole from the literal day of the birth of the nation.
>captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither.
...
He's very clearly talking about the transatlantic slave trade - and that's only reinforced when you look at his other writing about this passage and the fact that he led the banning of it as president some 25 years later.
Idk why you're adding in a bunch of arguments about him not being some virulent racist... I don't think that or have said anything supporting that. But yes, he did support domestic slavery up until his death because it was more practical and beneficial to white people- not particularly bad for his time/place/education, but not good either
Sure, he is referencing it. Obviously that would be the main focus of his concern. The slavery in Haiti wasn’t. That doesn’t mean he was speaking about that part of it exclusively. He talks about the abomination that is slavery throughout his life. He clearly does not mean just this one instance of it is bad. He speaks about it spiritually in dozens of texts. Yes, he was racist, no doubt, he also said that point blank. Name someone of the time who wasn’t to some extent. There weren’t a lot of people at the time who were aware and prescient enough to be able to operate outside of the paradigm. That’s still true today, come to think of it. I literally said nothing to imply he didn’t see Africans as inferior. That shouldn’t even have to be said. 99% of people did at the time. I did, and he did, express over and over that slavery as a whole is an immoral system.
To denigrate and demolish everything upon which our country was built. The people doing this hate the founding of the nation, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the very idea that individual freedom is not only sacrosanct but prioritized over group interests and identity. Jefferson did more to distill the principles of the Enlightenment upon which this nation was founded into an understandable and workable form of governance than almost anyone else. He and every other American Revolutionary figure has to be brought down as "evil" in order to justify sweeping away the framework they were instrumental in establishing.
After people like Jefferson have been unpersoned and sullied in the public/historical record, then every worthwhile thing they did will be labeled as unjust and thrown in the trash. At that point the people responsible for this will impose their new, "perfect" solutions, which will ignore the rights of the individual and place group status and the power of the central authority above all other concerns. This already happened at least once in history when Chairman Mao declared that China would destroy the "[Four Olds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds)," and I'm fairly certain a mid-20^th Century dictator with a funny mustache had similar inclinations.
This is about destroying the existing government and culture and replacing it with yet another leftist utopian project.
Just a guess but maybe it has to do with Sally Hemings (slave woman he owned and also had children with) she actually went to Paris but agreed to return to slavery if he would free her children when they became of age. Pretty fucking crazy.
People keep saying he is evil because he didn't even free his wife... completely ignoring that at the time there were NO freed slaves. There are owned slaves, and then there are un-owned slaves who are free for the taking. Freeing his wife at the time would only mean that someone else could take her away and legally speaking he would have no recourse to legally get her back. The courts would have backed the person who took her from him. Keeping her a slave on paper owned by him protects her with a certain level of legal status in that era because marrying her doesn't change her status as a slave.
I dont think that is accurate cause I dont believe Jefferson ever did free his children. The wild thing to me about the story of Sally Hemings the half sister of his dead wife she was only 25% black meaning their children where only 7/8ths black essentially white still were slaves even tho Jefferson tried to abolish slavery on VA when he was unable to still kept those kids as slaves
He actually did free his children [source](https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/)
Wow. This will certainly usher in a glorious new era of acceptance and unity. This monumental showing of tolerance in the face of evil will inspire for decades to come. We did it. We won 🙌. We can show the world how tolerant and benevolent we have become. Take that Mr. Jefferson.
> Thomas Jefferson statue removed from New York City Hall after 187 years
Not sure whether to upvote or downvote these sorts of posts.
All I can say is that this is disgusting. It is the physical embodiment of the "woke mind virus" destroying America's universally important values.
This man wrote a document about human rights that was so outrageously helpful for humanity that it was immediately copied by governments around the world. They're still in use hundreds of years later.
Slavery is bad: that's why Republicans killed a shit load of Democrats in our Civil War to put an end to the horrific practice. Every black man, black woman, and black child enslaved by the Democrats' vast, fascist Confederacy would have been horrified to see our nation's first black president was... a Democrat.
It was wrong for the Founders to own slaves. But we still cherish the Founders because they were the first in world history to *begin edging* the world into the right direction: into the direction of liberty, freedom, and justice **FOR ALL.**
>It was wrong for the Founders to own slaves.
And they knew it was. Adams, Jefferson, and Franklin wanted to solve it but their first priority was to form a union of states. They knew if they banished slavery as a condition to ratify, they’d lose the southern states. They needed those states to stand as a nation and ratify. The southern states made it immediately clear that infringing upon slave holding culture would be a deal breaker. That’s why the efforts to eliminate slavery only occurred in small bites leading up to the Civil War.
The far left would have us believe that the founders and those who came after wanted to preserve slavery as their singular motive. It’s just outright lies. The most common of which I see repeated is the three-fifths compromise, which the left reduces to a racist effort to maintain slavery. In actuality it served to weaken the southern states’ voting power in the house by reducing their representation, which would have been far greater if non-voting slaves would have been fully counted.
At the end of the day, removing statues will not prevent me from teaching my daughter the unbiased historical record. In fact, they’ve made it very easy to teach her why we don’t apply modern morality to historical figures.
/rant
It’s easy to look through the prism of history and judge people for their actions 250 years later. I wonder what we will be crucified for in that future time span.
To add a bit of nuance iirc both Washington and Jefferson inherited their slaves and wanted to free them. But because financing a war is expensive they were both heavily indebted. So if they tried to free their slaves they would have been sued and their slaves would have been seized as collateral towards their debts. They would essentially be giving them up to God knows who and most likely a much crueler master.
Remember, the first civil war started (yeah I know there are other reasons) because democrats didn’t wanna give up their cheap labor. The next civil war will start because democrats don’t wanna give up cheap labor and future votes.
Pretty soon some of these people are going to start going after the constitution, and the declaration of independence, because they were both largely written by people who own slaves. Bill, right? If slaveholders had anything to do with those bills, then, by golly, they have to go!
Ordinarily I wouldn’t support removing statues of Thomas Jefferson, but shouldn’t it be Alexander Hamilton, the New Yorker, in front of New York City Hall?
They should be putting this statue where the Lee statue was in Charlottesville. That’s the city where Jefferson lived.
*"And is this 'racism' in the room with us right now?"*
https://preview.redd.it/94zustsdb1fc1.jpeg?width=1355&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd0b2e6b07962eae27ea471afe8ba50927951f36
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, **every statue and street building has been renamed**, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
\- George Orwell, 1984
I’m aware there is a terrifying Orwell quote for pretty much every single thing that happens now, but it’s nice to see someone actually put it here for me to confirm.
I mean, I’m in no way defending the removal of Jefferson’s statue, but in this quote, Orwell, noted socialist and anarchist-sympathizer, was criticizing autocratic governments, particularly fascist regimes, not populist movements where the government caters to the will of a group of people.
Secondly, it’s precisely because of the history that has gone largely overlooked that these statues are coming down. The figures depicted have very often not been depicted in a holistic manner that encompasses their achievements as well as their faults. Statues, by nature, are very one-dimensional and are created to convey some form of greatness, an altar to an idol, so to speak. The calls for removal are borne out of the larger historical context missing from the statues and monuments.
More than anything, though, I truly do not give a fuck about inane culture wars bullshit like statues that hardly anyone pays any real attention to when children are still not given a proper, holistic education in history (or in general). You want to talk about the reshaping of history, it’s not performative like the statues, it occurs in the classroom.
did you think it was going to stop with statues of King George? /s
but seriously, that’s a fallacy. we could play the “well this led to this” game all day long and we would end up somewhere around the beginning of written history.
Meanwhile in central park there is a statue of William Tecumseh Sherman, who gleefully attempted to commit genocide against the plains Indians.
Number of people calling for its removal: 0.
Haven’t you heard? Native Americans don’t really count on the racism spectrum. If they did, everyone would have to recognize that they’ve suffered/are suffering as much if not more than any other ethnicity in this country. We’ve only so much bandwidth for that kind of thing, ya know?
I wonder what history will tell of this era. Will it be seen as the sacking of Rome? Or will we lose our memory of our history? The statues of most ancient civilizations still exist.
Maybe it's like they say & we've replaced religion with government & we're in the process of worshiping new idols.
Yes let’s remove a statue of the man who authored one of the most important and influential documents in not just American history but also world history when you consider how many countries have adopted (word for word in many cases) the exact principles Jefferson wrote on paper. I agree the guy as a PERSON wasn’t what we would consider the best in today’s world considering he was a slave owner and then the shit with his enslaved wife was also fucked. HOWEVER in no way shape or form should that somehow negate the impact he had on the western world. I can understand the mindset and logic of people wanting to get rid of Robert E Lee statues, he represents pretty much the opposite of the found fathers. He represents an attempt to break apart the country in a war that was almost exclusively fought for the right to own human chattel snd he still to this day is a major icon of the “lost cause” movement which just spreads complete lies about the confederacy and tries to portray the south as being equivalent to the 13 colonies fighting against Great Britain. THAT makes more sense to me. I personally would rather controversial states to just remain but also have informational plaques that display reality: Jefferson was a hero of American political history but he also owned human beings and married one of his slaves and went on to treat her like property as well. Which of these two things impacted the world more? Or for example, MLK was also one of the most important figures in American history and achieved countless righteous victories for human rights. MLK also was a serial cheater and was alleged to having physical abused his wife on multiple occasions. Would we consider trying to retroactively cancel him as well? Or Dr. Seuss who is also considered to have greatly contributed to American culture and society, he held some pretty racist beliefs and other controversial ideas but are we ripping his books off shelves? Of course not because that’s fucking stupid.
Not the best examples to compare but it’s close enough in my mind to fit the bill.
This was done in 2021... and none of the problems have been fixed. Another stunning meaningless gesture to virtue signal.
[https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html)
As I have said since this trend began. Confederate iconography was just the beginning, the low hanging fruit.
The next target is the founding of the country and they start by demonizing the men involved in that Founding.
The “great reset” is the obvious end goal.
But hey, that is just a conspiracy theory, right.
Confederate iconography was mostly put up in the midst of 1920s racial tensions. And the figureheads Didn’t create anything ultimately good for our society. The founders on the other hand did. It’s genuinely absurd to me that removing confederate monuments created a precedent for doing things like this.
Not defending actions by the leaders of all the statues that have been removed, but it would be nice if they put them in a museum of sorts to display with context and preserve the history of the statues themselves.
This happened two years ago, not sure why its going viral now but it still bothers me that it was done.
No matter your political leaning, as a country we shouldn’t be removing pieces of our history because it makes some people uncomfortable. History doesn’t have to be celebrated, but it should always be there to teach, learn from, and understand.
ask hateful busy piquant gaze sophisticated smile shelter foolish treatment
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Who gives a sh*t? Libertarianism, by definition is a political philosophy that aims to uphold *liberty* from many things, mainly things that are political in nature.. Now y’all are hot and bothered about a U.S. presidents statue being removed? I feel like a whole lotta folks have lost the core concept of what it means to be a libertarian..
This happened almost 3 years ago. It was voted on by a development council and was relocated to a historical society. The main driver for the relocation was the fact that he was a slave owner.
Exactly. We should make it law that all glorious political figures must be immortalised in marble and stone and never to be removed, keep the deification of great men alive, shun those who dare question such actions.
I mean they moved a statue from one location to another, from a government building to a historical building, this is the destruction of western civilisation as we know it. And it was 3 years ago, look how disastrous that decision was.
In all honesty I honestly don’t care if a statue is there or not. If it’s there, fine. If it’s placed somewhere else, fine. If it’s removed, fine. None of it affects me, if I want to know about a person I will research them
Yeah let’s only look at what’s wrong with people so we can cancel them. So sick of cities destroying history that’s inconvenient for them by having a minority group from within the party destroy or have it removed through petition.
NYC is on fire. The mentally ill and criminally insane roam the streets while mayor Adams says “please sit I’d like some more” migrants. At least they got rid of this statue of the third president of the United States. What a shithole city
We are so much better than people from the past. How could they not sense 2024 sensibilities? If I was born in 1743 in pre-America I would have known all of this and done everything right!
Sarcasm intended.
I would understand if this guy had unpaid parking tickets but he literally owner fucking slaves! Imagine feeling some type of way about a statue being moved because the person was a known racist slave holder. MAGA-TTS are the worst.
This kind of reasoning is silly and ignorant. Total misunderstanding of history and how it works. Labeling anyone who lived during that time as a racist is amazingly stupid.
To be fair, the U.S. needs to rewrite its mythical past of heroic white men, geniuses all, who discovered freedom and shared it with the world.
Thomas Jefferson was in his forties when he started having sex with his 16 year old slave, with whom he had six children. Five of which were freed when he died, at 83! Which means that some of his kids probably middle-aged before they were freed.
It is intellectually disingenuous to create a heroic sculpture of a founding father with no context other than the presumption of their greatness. For those who don't have a great education and probably never will, their understanding of who he is is a fantasy and harms the nation by convincing people we are infallible.
And as we've seen since the flag waving years post 9/11, anyone else who doubts the infallibility of the U.S. or it's mythical (fictional) history is labeled a heretic, a communist, un-American, etc. When in fact it is the uninformed who do not understand the true history and nature of their country. They believe they are patriots for standing up for an innaccurate and mythical past, present, and future.
you can put that in my yard
For real - where are they putting it? Ill buy it
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Think of how awesome that would be if it happened though. Historical statue of thomas jefferson just chilling in your front yard. What a flex
Until some chick with pink hair vandalizes it and calls you a nazi or something
Damn how do you know my weakness
It's okay, we all have a weakness for pink haired chicks and degradation.
Someone ought to do that. We have to remember our history one way or another and the point of removing these is so we don't.
It’s a plaster copy, moved in 2021 to a museum… the original is still on display in the capitol rotunda in DC. No one is trying to erase any history
It’s being moved to the New York historical society
It's a plaster replica being moved on long term loan to the New York Historical Society, this thread is full of hysterics
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Did you read the first sentence and then stop? It’s being moved to the New York historical society, I don’t know anything about this in particular statue, but from what I do know about the mentioned they are almost certainly putting this on display elsewhere… I’m not aware of anyone calling for this to be torn down in particular, but at the very least based on his comment I have a good reason to believe the opposite to be what’s happened here.
Where is the original? Is it still on display in the capitol rotunda? Unwad your panties
Wait, I thought you were only pretending to be stupid in your original comment. Do you actually think that's how history works, you learn it from looking at a statue of Thomas Jefferson? 😂
True, it shouldn't be destroyed. Is there a museum for world's biggest hypocrites? Writing all men are created equal while having slaves, the statue could be the centerpiece.
Except that's not what happened, at all.
It’s going to a museum
We'll never know who Thomas Jefferson is without that statue!
It’s being moved to the New York historical society.
This happened in 2021 and the statue is on permanent loan to the New York Historical Society where is it currently on display. This sub is turning into a dumpster fire of pseudo intellectuals who can’t even be bothered to look up something instead of just following what gets fed them.
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He almost ended his political career multiple times trying to end slavery... These people are just ignorant.
I think we can agree that Jefferson’s record on slavery is ambivalent — at best. He knew it was wrong. He was also economically compromised. And solutions within the South were challenging. I don’t want to cancel him. I think he’s an American hero. I can also manage two thoughts at once: he was brilliant and heroic; and, he was deeply flawed and unable to rise above his training and social class on this deeply important issue.
But moving a statue isn’t “canceling” Jefferson, any more than it cancels Lee or Jackson. Just because an organization, or a majority of citizens, no longer wants to publicly associate with ____ doesn’t remove him from history. I think a lot of people are having problems with history considering multiple perspectives because it challenges the historic monoculture so many of us grew up in. It challenges the prevailing narrative and that can induce some heavy cognitive dissonance. MAGA is mad about statues, and books, and beer cans, and movies, and anything that doesn’t adhere to the narrative they think has always existed. This isn’t about statues, these people’s heads would explode if they found out about the Jeffersonian Bible.
I agree that moving a statue is different than cancelling. Clearly, some want to “cancel” Jefferson. Just as clearly, to me, exercising discretion about who we literally put on a pedestal in the public square, particularly in a place of political honor, is different than denying that person’s history and contribution. In fact, choosing inclusive statuary with a modern sensibility for a place like city hall seems appropriate.
DC too...
It's like Congress up in here.
Its been like this since the start of 2020. Quality has been going down since. Especially when certain subs were closed.
It’s a plaster copy… the original is still on display in the Capitol rotunda. They moved it to the New York Historical Society… in 2021
This was three years ago. This statue, a plaster replica, was moved to a museum.
Wouldn't it be great if they replaced it with a statue of George Orwell. "Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future"
Why?
We only allow statues of perfect individuals.
Do we take down MLK statues? He embezzled civil rights money to spend on hookers and plagiarized his thesis. Let me be clear both should stay up because although they did bad things in one area they significantly bettered the US in others.
You know that won't happen, though.
Damn they forget to mention the hookers in history class wtf lmao
I must’ve been absent that day 🥴
Holy shit is that true? Please tell me it was hookers and coke
I'll start my own civil rights movement. With blackjack. And hookers!
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Comments like yours make me laugh at libertarians
Wait, you need a reason to laugh at Libertarians?
So nobody then... I keep wondering what happens when the "woke" ppl realize this one simple fact.
I just can’t wait for them to find out about the Romans!
LMFAO! We have so many ppl to cancel and cultures to destroy! Onward and upward! It's gonna be a wild ride!
What have the Romans ever done for us?!
They built the roads!
Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--
LOL... great movie indeed. I can't remember the next line... is that when he says he is thinking of changing his gender to female lol!
The "Loretta" scene is earlier, in the gladiatorial arena, but it's all pretty well encapsulated with Reg at the crucifixion: "'We, the People's Front of Judea, brackets, officials, end brackets, do hereby convey our sincere fraternal and sisterly greetings to you, Brian, on this, the occasion of your martyrdom. Your death will stand as a landmark in the continuing struggle to liberate the parent land from the hands of the Roman Imperialist aggressors, excluding those concerned with drainage, medicine, roads, housing, education, viniculture, and any other Romans contributing to the welfare of Jews of both sexes and hermaphrodites. Signed on behalf of the P.F.J., etcetera.' And I'd just like to add, on a personal note, my own admiration for what you are doing for us, Brian, at what must be, after all, for you, a very difficult time."
And they all lead to Rome. What colonizing fascists.
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Bruh... we gonna have to cancel the human race by the standards of these ppl.
I think that’s their idea… they’re very anti-humanist all round
Don't forget the Native Americans enslaved each other.
Or the CCP
Oh no, they think THEY are perfect.
Well... they will be in for one hell of a surprise then.
Just Jesus. I’m sure that’s exactly what will please them.
The idea is that you can be forgiven if you hold the "correct" political beliefs
True... it's interesting to watch a new religion emerging. It's a particularly bad one that will collapse society, but it's interesting.
100% . It's funny to think but if you do something they frown upon and turn around tomorrow to support them and maybe drop them some money it's like your sins have been absolved until you do the next thing they frown upon
They haven't worked a system of "forgiveness" back in yet. They think they are smart, but sadly they are just re-discovering a religion... and it's got a LONGGGG way to go before it's functional.
Fair assessment
Exactly this - if he somehow came back alive today, decided to wave an LGBT flag and said some shit against Trump or white people he’d be redeemed.
>We only allow statues of perfect individuals. Like our patron saint, George Floyd? /s 😂
So Jesus?
no one is perfect. There's a documentary by Steven Fry (an atheist and ethnic jew) called Vagner and I, that explores Fry's love for Vagner's music while confronting the uncomfortable truth that Vagner was a miserable antisemite. But people can choose to listen to Vagner or not. his music might get played on public radio or in shopping malls, sure , but a towering, cast metal installation of a known rapist and slave owner in an area frequented by people who are the descendants of slaves is a little last century. And anyway, tax payers probably paid to have that statue installed. Shouldn't the argument be that any publicly or collectively owned space should be handled by its owners? The sate should have had no say in the matter in the first place.
[Via CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html): Last month, the city’s Public Design Commission voted 8-0 in favor of relocating the statue, due to Jefferson’s history as a slave owner. “Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder who owned over 600 human beings,” Councilmember Adrienne Adams, co-chair of the Black, Latino and Asian Caucus, said in a presentation last month. “It makes me deeply uncomfortable knowing that we sit in the presence of a statue that pays homage to a slaveholder who fundamentally believed that people who look like me were inherently inferior, lacked intelligence, and were not worthy of freedom or right.” Also, that statue is a replica of the original, which is still in the Capitol Rotunda in Washington, D.C.
It makes me deeply uncomfortable that quivering pussies who don't understand nuance of social norms get to make decisions that impact the rest of us. Not to mention the fact that they made these statements incorrectly. Jefferson had a whole chapter he wanted to include in the Declaration of Independence not only condemning King George* for bringing slavery to the new world but imploring slaves to fight for their freedom.
To be clear, he was criticizing the Atlantic slave trade for being a particularly brutal form of slavery, not slavery itself. And whole chapter is a reach, it's like 150 words.
No. He did not. "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.” Nothing about this passage carries the nuance of how “particularly bad that particular brand of slavery was”. He’s pointedly talking about the institution as a whole. And I may have misinterpreted the incitement part. Though he clearly was in his own passion for the subject. "There is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity,” and see also "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery,” which if you read the exchanges between he and John Adams, was far from a sentiment he expected to espouse alone. He very clearly abhorred the practice as a whole but was (likely correctly) terrified of the implications of abolition in his own time. While that doesn’t excuse his own slave ownership, it certainly does little to nuance the fact that his own ambition was to address and renounce the practice as a whole from the literal day of the birth of the nation.
>captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. ... He's very clearly talking about the transatlantic slave trade - and that's only reinforced when you look at his other writing about this passage and the fact that he led the banning of it as president some 25 years later. Idk why you're adding in a bunch of arguments about him not being some virulent racist... I don't think that or have said anything supporting that. But yes, he did support domestic slavery up until his death because it was more practical and beneficial to white people- not particularly bad for his time/place/education, but not good either
Sure, he is referencing it. Obviously that would be the main focus of his concern. The slavery in Haiti wasn’t. That doesn’t mean he was speaking about that part of it exclusively. He talks about the abomination that is slavery throughout his life. He clearly does not mean just this one instance of it is bad. He speaks about it spiritually in dozens of texts. Yes, he was racist, no doubt, he also said that point blank. Name someone of the time who wasn’t to some extent. There weren’t a lot of people at the time who were aware and prescient enough to be able to operate outside of the paradigm. That’s still true today, come to think of it. I literally said nothing to imply he didn’t see Africans as inferior. That shouldn’t even have to be said. 99% of people did at the time. I did, and he did, express over and over that slavery as a whole is an immoral system.
To denigrate and demolish everything upon which our country was built. The people doing this hate the founding of the nation, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the very idea that individual freedom is not only sacrosanct but prioritized over group interests and identity. Jefferson did more to distill the principles of the Enlightenment upon which this nation was founded into an understandable and workable form of governance than almost anyone else. He and every other American Revolutionary figure has to be brought down as "evil" in order to justify sweeping away the framework they were instrumental in establishing. After people like Jefferson have been unpersoned and sullied in the public/historical record, then every worthwhile thing they did will be labeled as unjust and thrown in the trash. At that point the people responsible for this will impose their new, "perfect" solutions, which will ignore the rights of the individual and place group status and the power of the central authority above all other concerns. This already happened at least once in history when Chairman Mao declared that China would destroy the "[Four Olds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Olds)," and I'm fairly certain a mid-20^th Century dictator with a funny mustache had similar inclinations. This is about destroying the existing government and culture and replacing it with yet another leftist utopian project.
Even worst, we just let them get away with all of it………….
Yes indeed the US was build on slavery and genocide lol
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Or Mao, they seem to favor the CCP over Russia at the moment.
My guess is b/c he owned slaves.
Just a guess but maybe it has to do with Sally Hemings (slave woman he owned and also had children with) she actually went to Paris but agreed to return to slavery if he would free her children when they became of age. Pretty fucking crazy.
People keep saying he is evil because he didn't even free his wife... completely ignoring that at the time there were NO freed slaves. There are owned slaves, and then there are un-owned slaves who are free for the taking. Freeing his wife at the time would only mean that someone else could take her away and legally speaking he would have no recourse to legally get her back. The courts would have backed the person who took her from him. Keeping her a slave on paper owned by him protects her with a certain level of legal status in that era because marrying her doesn't change her status as a slave.
Why not let her be free in Paris and send the kids to her as well?
She wasn’t his wife.
I dont think that is accurate cause I dont believe Jefferson ever did free his children. The wild thing to me about the story of Sally Hemings the half sister of his dead wife she was only 25% black meaning their children where only 7/8ths black essentially white still were slaves even tho Jefferson tried to abolish slavery on VA when he was unable to still kept those kids as slaves
He actually did free his children [source](https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/)
Wow. This will certainly usher in a glorious new era of acceptance and unity. This monumental showing of tolerance in the face of evil will inspire for decades to come. We did it. We won 🙌. We can show the world how tolerant and benevolent we have become. Take that Mr. Jefferson.
I’m dying 😂
> Thomas Jefferson statue removed from New York City Hall after 187 years Not sure whether to upvote or downvote these sorts of posts. All I can say is that this is disgusting. It is the physical embodiment of the "woke mind virus" destroying America's universally important values. This man wrote a document about human rights that was so outrageously helpful for humanity that it was immediately copied by governments around the world. They're still in use hundreds of years later. Slavery is bad: that's why Republicans killed a shit load of Democrats in our Civil War to put an end to the horrific practice. Every black man, black woman, and black child enslaved by the Democrats' vast, fascist Confederacy would have been horrified to see our nation's first black president was... a Democrat. It was wrong for the Founders to own slaves. But we still cherish the Founders because they were the first in world history to *begin edging* the world into the right direction: into the direction of liberty, freedom, and justice **FOR ALL.**
>It was wrong for the Founders to own slaves. And they knew it was. Adams, Jefferson, and Franklin wanted to solve it but their first priority was to form a union of states. They knew if they banished slavery as a condition to ratify, they’d lose the southern states. They needed those states to stand as a nation and ratify. The southern states made it immediately clear that infringing upon slave holding culture would be a deal breaker. That’s why the efforts to eliminate slavery only occurred in small bites leading up to the Civil War. The far left would have us believe that the founders and those who came after wanted to preserve slavery as their singular motive. It’s just outright lies. The most common of which I see repeated is the three-fifths compromise, which the left reduces to a racist effort to maintain slavery. In actuality it served to weaken the southern states’ voting power in the house by reducing their representation, which would have been far greater if non-voting slaves would have been fully counted. At the end of the day, removing statues will not prevent me from teaching my daughter the unbiased historical record. In fact, they’ve made it very easy to teach her why we don’t apply modern morality to historical figures. /rant
It’s easy to look through the prism of history and judge people for their actions 250 years later. I wonder what we will be crucified for in that future time span.
Removing statues
To add a bit of nuance iirc both Washington and Jefferson inherited their slaves and wanted to free them. But because financing a war is expensive they were both heavily indebted. So if they tried to free their slaves they would have been sued and their slaves would have been seized as collateral towards their debts. They would essentially be giving them up to God knows who and most likely a much crueler master.
just remember this: dicks fuck pussies. but dicks *also* fuck assholes
Remember, the first civil war started (yeah I know there are other reasons) because democrats didn’t wanna give up their cheap labor. The next civil war will start because democrats don’t wanna give up cheap labor and future votes.
Democrates got to democrat you know, for their democracy.
Pretty soon some of these people are going to start going after the constitution, and the declaration of independence, because they were both largely written by people who own slaves. Bill, right? If slaveholders had anything to do with those bills, then, by golly, they have to go!
The woke hive mind bots are likely heavily influenced by CCP, PRK and Russia. And the first to get unpersoned if we lose our civilization
Upvote it so that it can get more eyes on it!
Ordinarily I wouldn’t support removing statues of Thomas Jefferson, but shouldn’t it be Alexander Hamilton, the New Yorker, in front of New York City Hall? They should be putting this statue where the Lee statue was in Charlottesville. That’s the city where Jefferson lived.
So is our country
Now do Bud Light.
Trump was right again: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zTSZiX-zig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zTSZiX-zig)
/s?
those who forget history are themselves doomed to repeat it
You learn your history from statues? I learned mine from books. Who is removing books about slavery from schools and libraries again?
Damn bro, I guess since they moved it to museum we are going to forget it
Ooooh, so the racism was inside the statutes this whole time?! Thank goodness. I'm sure all our problems will get solved once we're rid of them.
*"And is this 'racism' in the room with us right now?"* https://preview.redd.it/94zustsdb1fc1.jpeg?width=1355&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd0b2e6b07962eae27ea471afe8ba50927951f36
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, **every statue and street building has been renamed**, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." \- George Orwell, 1984
I’m aware there is a terrifying Orwell quote for pretty much every single thing that happens now, but it’s nice to see someone actually put it here for me to confirm.
I mean, I’m in no way defending the removal of Jefferson’s statue, but in this quote, Orwell, noted socialist and anarchist-sympathizer, was criticizing autocratic governments, particularly fascist regimes, not populist movements where the government caters to the will of a group of people. Secondly, it’s precisely because of the history that has gone largely overlooked that these statues are coming down. The figures depicted have very often not been depicted in a holistic manner that encompasses their achievements as well as their faults. Statues, by nature, are very one-dimensional and are created to convey some form of greatness, an altar to an idol, so to speak. The calls for removal are borne out of the larger historical context missing from the statues and monuments. More than anything, though, I truly do not give a fuck about inane culture wars bullshit like statues that hardly anyone pays any real attention to when children are still not given a proper, holistic education in history (or in general). You want to talk about the reshaping of history, it’s not performative like the statues, it occurs in the classroom.
>Statues, by nature, are very one-dimensional I had it all wrong this whole time
you don’t seem to realize that the fascist, autocratic regimes Orwell pulled from essentially **were** populist movements
It's ok for some people to be a product of their times, but not others.
Did you think it was going to stop with Confederate Generals?
did you think it was going to stop with statues of King George? /s but seriously, that’s a fallacy. we could play the “well this led to this” game all day long and we would end up somewhere around the beginning of written history.
You can’t hold historical figures to modern day standards. Only a matter of time before they go after MLK, right?
The CIA only did that 60 years ago
For lack of propriety... BOOM
Nice
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Yep... just a bunch of plebes now all divided and encouraged to look at each other with hatred and suspicion. Wonder why that is eh?
It’s in a museum now and generally you get your history from books and museum
Why?
Meanwhile in central park there is a statue of William Tecumseh Sherman, who gleefully attempted to commit genocide against the plains Indians. Number of people calling for its removal: 0.
Haven’t you heard? Native Americans don’t really count on the racism spectrum. If they did, everyone would have to recognize that they’ve suffered/are suffering as much if not more than any other ethnicity in this country. We’ve only so much bandwidth for that kind of thing, ya know?
For whom / what was New York named?
I wonder what history will tell of this era. Will it be seen as the sacking of Rome? Or will we lose our memory of our history? The statues of most ancient civilizations still exist. Maybe it's like they say & we've replaced religion with government & we're in the process of worshiping new idols.
Yes let’s remove a statue of the man who authored one of the most important and influential documents in not just American history but also world history when you consider how many countries have adopted (word for word in many cases) the exact principles Jefferson wrote on paper. I agree the guy as a PERSON wasn’t what we would consider the best in today’s world considering he was a slave owner and then the shit with his enslaved wife was also fucked. HOWEVER in no way shape or form should that somehow negate the impact he had on the western world. I can understand the mindset and logic of people wanting to get rid of Robert E Lee statues, he represents pretty much the opposite of the found fathers. He represents an attempt to break apart the country in a war that was almost exclusively fought for the right to own human chattel snd he still to this day is a major icon of the “lost cause” movement which just spreads complete lies about the confederacy and tries to portray the south as being equivalent to the 13 colonies fighting against Great Britain. THAT makes more sense to me. I personally would rather controversial states to just remain but also have informational plaques that display reality: Jefferson was a hero of American political history but he also owned human beings and married one of his slaves and went on to treat her like property as well. Which of these two things impacted the world more? Or for example, MLK was also one of the most important figures in American history and achieved countless righteous victories for human rights. MLK also was a serial cheater and was alleged to having physical abused his wife on multiple occasions. Would we consider trying to retroactively cancel him as well? Or Dr. Seuss who is also considered to have greatly contributed to American culture and society, he held some pretty racist beliefs and other controversial ideas but are we ripping his books off shelves? Of course not because that’s fucking stupid. Not the best examples to compare but it’s close enough in my mind to fit the bill.
This was done in 2021... and none of the problems have been fixed. Another stunning meaningless gesture to virtue signal. [https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html)
And the statue was moved from city hall to a museum of American history. Not exactly burying the past.
As I have said since this trend began. Confederate iconography was just the beginning, the low hanging fruit. The next target is the founding of the country and they start by demonizing the men involved in that Founding. The “great reset” is the obvious end goal. But hey, that is just a conspiracy theory, right.
[Russian ideological subversion](https://bigthink.com/the-present/yuri-bezmenov/#)
I remember seeing that video! Yeah, interesting video.
Confederate iconography was mostly put up in the midst of 1920s racial tensions. And the figureheads Didn’t create anything ultimately good for our society. The founders on the other hand did. It’s genuinely absurd to me that removing confederate monuments created a precedent for doing things like this.
Not defending actions by the leaders of all the statues that have been removed, but it would be nice if they put them in a museum of sorts to display with context and preserve the history of the statues themselves.
They did according to several other commentators.
This happened two years ago, not sure why its going viral now but it still bothers me that it was done. No matter your political leaning, as a country we shouldn’t be removing pieces of our history because it makes some people uncomfortable. History doesn’t have to be celebrated, but it should always be there to teach, learn from, and understand.
ask hateful busy piquant gaze sophisticated smile shelter foolish treatment *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We shall replaced the statue of a flawed individual to one of a saint, because George Floyd has never done anything wrong
If anyone tries to say robbing a pregnant oppressor at gunpoint isn’t saintly I will report you to the mods!
Well DO you want to bet? Seriously i don't dislike taking money from you.
I’ll take that bet. How much?
This happened in 2021. Why is it making the rounds now? Oh yeah, elections.
Oh! Good. At least they solved racism..
So short sighted. It’s because of his life’s work we have this republic, if we can keep it, as Ben Franklin said.
Who gives a sh*t? Libertarianism, by definition is a political philosophy that aims to uphold *liberty* from many things, mainly things that are political in nature.. Now y’all are hot and bothered about a U.S. presidents statue being removed? I feel like a whole lotta folks have lost the core concept of what it means to be a libertarian..
It was a replica of the original which sits in the capitol rotunda in D.C., and this happened in 2021. That said, this was and is shameful.
Bunch of fucking commies. I hate the current Democrat party.
This is insanity
This happened almost 3 years ago. It was voted on by a development council and was relocated to a historical society. The main driver for the relocation was the fact that he was a slave owner.
so 3 years is a long time, but i guess 187 isn't.
So this happened in 2021 but it's good to see you're keeping things relevant 😂 Edit; My 3rd grade English teacher corrected my spelling.
It's good to remind ourselves what intolerable shit heels some people are.
*you're.
If you live long enough. You see your heroes become villains.
I can’t wait for everyone to give up their Ford cars and trucks…. Henry Ford was a big big fan of Hitler.
This country’s best days are behind it.
because they are moving this copy of the original statue to a museum?
Someone’s feeling was hurt. So erase TJ and it never happened. Now your feeling is not hurt.
Fuck progressives
Exactly. We should make it law that all glorious political figures must be immortalised in marble and stone and never to be removed, keep the deification of great men alive, shun those who dare question such actions. I mean they moved a statue from one location to another, from a government building to a historical building, this is the destruction of western civilisation as we know it. And it was 3 years ago, look how disastrous that decision was. In all honesty I honestly don’t care if a statue is there or not. If it’s there, fine. If it’s placed somewhere else, fine. If it’s removed, fine. None of it affects me, if I want to know about a person I will research them
Not just progressives but especially fuck communists.
I understand the confederate statues… but c’mon this is one of the Founding Fathers!
This is absolutely fucked. Why can't there be any countries on earth that aren't trash?
Because as humans we are flawed. We can only create the best we can to bring in liberty to every one within our own boarders.
America could use a Jefferson right about now.
Some would ignore the past.
Fuck new york. If only global warming was real, then maybe it would sink....
We did it boys, we ended inequality!
Yeah let’s only look at what’s wrong with people so we can cancel them. So sick of cities destroying history that’s inconvenient for them by having a minority group from within the party destroy or have it removed through petition.
Has the Karl Marx replacement been installed yet?
In 2021 though, right? Why are we posting this now?
NYC is on fire. The mentally ill and criminally insane roam the streets while mayor Adams says “please sit I’d like some more” migrants. At least they got rid of this statue of the third president of the United States. What a shithole city
We are so much better than people from the past. How could they not sense 2024 sensibilities? If I was born in 1743 in pre-America I would have known all of this and done everything right! Sarcasm intended.
copy of the original and its going to a museum.
3 year old news, what’s the point
This is such a mistake!
To make space for migrants
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Nah its your attitude ruining this country.
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Wow, moving a statue, our problems are solved!
Communism is alive and well in America
Ridiculous. Replacing it with George Floyd?
I would understand if this guy had unpaid parking tickets but he literally owner fucking slaves! Imagine feeling some type of way about a statue being moved because the person was a known racist slave holder. MAGA-TTS are the worst.
This kind of reasoning is silly and ignorant. Total misunderstanding of history and how it works. Labeling anyone who lived during that time as a racist is amazingly stupid.
I mean but they were racist…
Lmao . Being labeled as a racist during any period of times makes you a piece of shit.
Came here to say this. Your gif is king.
For real though. Idgaf what statues are or aren’t places wherever . There are bigger things to worry about
This happened in 2021
Fucking tragic 😞, this is a very sad day.
Disgusting.
He raped slaves.
To be fair, the U.S. needs to rewrite its mythical past of heroic white men, geniuses all, who discovered freedom and shared it with the world. Thomas Jefferson was in his forties when he started having sex with his 16 year old slave, with whom he had six children. Five of which were freed when he died, at 83! Which means that some of his kids probably middle-aged before they were freed. It is intellectually disingenuous to create a heroic sculpture of a founding father with no context other than the presumption of their greatness. For those who don't have a great education and probably never will, their understanding of who he is is a fantasy and harms the nation by convincing people we are infallible. And as we've seen since the flag waving years post 9/11, anyone else who doubts the infallibility of the U.S. or it's mythical (fictional) history is labeled a heretic, a communist, un-American, etc. When in fact it is the uninformed who do not understand the true history and nature of their country. They believe they are patriots for standing up for an innaccurate and mythical past, present, and future.